FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Mike Lewis ("Mark C. O'Connor")
  bud malt  etc. ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  Questions on Beer Styles? (RAYMUN)
  Cookers ("Rich Scotty")
  Wyeast "Steinbart" strain (Ted Manahan)
  Re: Wort Priming (Steve Dempsey)
  Apple Pie beer (Jim Grady)
  King Kooker - which one? (Sean Rooney)
  Steinbart's yeast (Jeff Frane)
  Coors "Weizen" (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  re: Chili Beer ("McCaw, Mike")
  DOS beer software (Ed Hitchcock)
  Re:Wyeast "Steinbart" strain (Greg Demkowicz)
  Dr. George Fix's email address (Chuck Coronella)
  Altbier yeast (not again!??) (Jeff Frane)
  Brewpubs in Raleigh/Durham, I've Gott a question (Daniel Hays)
  syrupVSdry/ShelfLife/CO2scrub/yeast+pressure/HubcabAle (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  warm ferments/dryhopping/fusels/isinglass/fast ferments (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Thanks! (Douglas R. Jones)
  Navel gazing (David Draper)
  Multiple Hop Additions? Wha's with that? (Karl Elvis MacRae)
  not happy with St.Patricks, Bridgeport Brewery (Jim Doyle)
  Replies, mistakes, dry-hopping (long - sorry) (Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
  Belgians coming to Chicago. (Steve De Rose)
  Summary of replies to lager yeast questions (Jay Lonner)
  Use of rice as adjunct (m.bryson2)
  Low Mash PH (Terri Terfinko)
  St Pats rebuttal (MS08653)
  Beer chiller (MS08653)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from 
  sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via 
  mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu.  Send HELP as the body of a 
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) 
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 07:57:08 -0700
From: "Mark C. O'Connor" <moc at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Mike Lewis




Re:  Michael Lewis, UC Davis Brewing Professor



Several posts have mentioned this man and his classes.  I took an
inexpensive one-day workshop.  He's very interesting and informative, tho'
not without his somewhat "heretical" ideas that can piss off the homebrewer,
micro-brew or import connoisseur.  He calls Bud a "splendid" beer, finds
"styles" and fussing about "ales vs. lagers" dated and silly, says "trained
tasters" can't distinguish "body" (or at least have widely divergent
perceptions of it) in a beer and blind tests have revealed most homebrew
wisdom about putting "body" in beer to be unscientific.  He spends a lot of
time on mash theory, hop utilization (if you don't boil for an hour you
won't convert the alpha acids to iso-alpha acids, the "desirable" bittering
agents), and other intriguing elements of beer science and lore.
Worthwhile, I think, and I like the fact that he challenges some
"conventional wisdom".  He doesn't have to be your guru, y'know, just a good
teacher.



I was influenced by Dr. Lewis in two areas:



1)  He instructed us to first master the "pale beer" and use that as a base
to create higher gravity and darker colored brews with adjuncts.  He
encouraged us to proceed slowly, changing one thing at a time.  That way we
could more easily identify the steps in the process and the ingredients that
affected the flavor.



2)  He repeatedly emphasized that beer brewing was personal and the only
palette we had to satisfy was our own.  Pleasing judges in a contest could
be gratifying but its not the same as brewing for personal satisfaction.  He
felt contests were to tied up in traditional categories and that this was
too limiting, it was important to brew good quality "beer", not such and
such ale or what have you.  He was challenged by several students on this,
and he relented somewhat, saying he wasn't opposed to contests, just that he
didn't want us limited to only brewing traditional styles.



The course included a tour of the Davis brewing facilities and an informal
repast with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Anchor Steam.  As I said, I learned
quite a bit. I still refer to my notes, and had a good feeling about the
whole experience.  An intermediate brewer could benefit greatly.  I don't
want a brewing course that simply reinforces my prejudices about beer, I
hope I'll come away arguing with some of what I heard as well as with
material I can put to use immediately.  After all, our avocation is a
wonderful blend of art, craft, science, history, tradition, technology, and
personal bias.  I hope we never subscribe to *anyone's* gospel on the "the
only way to do it."



Brew on, friends



Mark C. O'Connor

Yreka, CA

moc at well.com  

Return to table of contents


Date: 30 Jun 1994 08:19:08 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: bud malt  etc.

Recently, a brewer-freind offered me some FREE grain, and of course, I accepted
gladly.  It is Great Western #1202, which I was told is specifically mashed
for AB.  I brewed a one-grain ale with 10 lbs.  The 1st runnings were light
straw-colored, lighter then I'd ever seen, and the end runnings were the
color of Zima while still containing noticeable sweetness.   I got a decidedly
poor hot break but my SG of 1051 was in-line with my normal extraction.
I'm having fantacies of brewing a bud-colored barleywine.

Can anyone tell me something difinative about this stuff ?  Is it realy
Budweiser malt ?  Is it fully modified ?

Speaking of Bud... a rdaio ad I keep hearing has got me wondering... does
anyone have a recipe for that Opaque Pumpernickel Stout ?  I'm particularly
interested in how the beef bullion is added.  Should I use only the first
press of that ingredient  ?    :)

| WATCH OUT !  My dogma's driving my karma on the info super-highway  |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON    JSDAWS1   415 545-0299    CUSTOMER BILLING SYSTEMS   |

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 11:21:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: RAYMUN at delphi.com
Subject: Questions on Beer Styles?

I am a little confusted on the way to create a beer recipe. I 

have looked at cats meow and other similar recipe bases and 

have noticed that many different beer types have the same 

exact ingredients. HOw can this be?

 

How can a Pale Ale have the same ingredients as an India Pale 

Ale or a Pilsner?  Or how can a Porter have the same as a so 

called Stout?  

 

What ingredients determines a beer style?

 

I have Suds v3.0 and using the recipe formulator, I pick a 

style of brew I want to create, but how do I know what malts 

to use?  I could take Pale Ale Malt add some crystal to the 

proper color of beer according to the program. But what hops 

make a beer a different style that another.

 

If I took Pale Ale Malt and made an IPA, or took a PAle Ale 

Malt and some Wheat malt would it still be a IPA.  

 

According to SUDS all I do I guess is match the color, HBU's 

and gravities to make a style of beer?  This seems to easy. 

How can just changing a beers color, change the beers style?

Or adding 1 of 2 more HBU do the same?

 

Any input is appreciated, post on HBD for others to read!

 

RAYMUN at DELPHI.COM



Return to table of contents


Date: 30 Jun 1994 09:26:12 U
From: "Rich Scotty" <rscotty at denitqm.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Subject: Cookers

                      Subject:                              Time:  9:17 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Cookers                               Date:  6/30/94
David Hippe writes:

>I have seen the King Kooker for $50 with 170,000 btu but I am 
>concerned with the stability of the tripod.  I found a Cache Cooker for 
>$70 rated at about 100,000 btu which looks more sturdy.  What btu >rating
should I look for?  >Does anyone have a distinct preference?

I have a King Cooker and you are correct in your assessment of the tripod.  I
never trusted the thing.  It is poorly designed and doesn't fit well enough to
be useful.  I solved this problem with my trusty Black & Decker Workmate (tm).

When I brew, I set up the workmate with a small piece of sheetrock to protect
it and fire everything up.  Works great and they're useful for many other
things around the house.

As to BTU capacity, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  I have never come
close to opening up the King Cooker to full throttle - I fear it would burn a
hole in the bottom of my keg/boiler.  It would certainly lead to scorching
problems at the very least.  

IMHO, it is much more important to look at these stoves from the perspective of
how well they distribute their heat rather than how much heat they can produce.
 In other words, is the flame localized or well distributed?  Is there a flame
difuser on the stove?  Distribution of the flame will significantly reduce
scorching of the wort.

Usual disclaimers apply-

Rich Scotty
"Given the most carefully controlled conditions, the yeast will do as it damn
well pleases."



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 08:48:36 -0700
From: Ted Manahan <tedm at hpcvcdq.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Wyeast "Steinbart" strain
Full-Name: Ted Manahan


John Horzepa <jhorzepa at radiomail.net> asks about "Steinbart (I believe
#1021) ale yeast."

I don't know about the Wyeast number - I've never seen it numbered
before. My local homebrew store is supplied by Steinbarts, and usually
has this stuff in stock.

What I've heard: This is a single mutation from Wyeast 1056, Chico ale.
The owner of Steinbarts likes it more than 1056, and had it cultured and
packaged just for his store by Wyeast. It is supposed to be highly
attenuative. 

What I know: I've used this for at least a dozen batches of beer. It is
very reliable, and flocculates well. It doesn't like cool temperatures -
make sure to ferment at least in the high 60's or it will be very slow.
Below ~75 degrees this yeast ferments very clean, with few esters. I've
never fermented above 75, so I don't know how it performs at high temps.

It performs well if you pitch onto the dregs from a previous batch.

It makes a nice sweet mead, dying at about 8% alcohol. 

It is my house yeast - I like it.

Ted Manahan
tedm at cv.hp.com
503/750-2856

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:09:45 -0600
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: Re: Wort Priming


DBLAKE1037 at aol.com writes:

> ... I have saved the 3
> cups of raw wort (sg=1.072) because I thought that it would be a good idea to
> use it to prime when bottling time comes around. ...

> 1)  Do I have enough (volume-wise and sugar content-wise) to prime
> adequately?  (I am brewing a weizen).

For most beers, priming raises the SG by about 0.004.  For a weizen, you
probably want a bit more, up to 0.006.  Assuming your finishing SG is
1.012, you have 0.060 worth of fermentables in the saved wort.  But this
will be diluted when you mix it with the beer.  If you dilute to make 1
gallon, you'll get:

     0.060 points  x  0.1875 gallons  =  0.01125.

Dilute that to make 5 gallons:

     0.01125  /  5  =  0.00225

This is not sufficient to prime your beer.  You would need more like
7-8 cups of 1.072 wort for priming.  But you can still use this wort
as about 40% of your priming, and supplement with your normal priming
ingredients.  If you do use it, make sure it's sanitary.  If it's
been sitting in a jar in your refrigerator with just a lid on it,
you should boil & cool before using; wort like this is ideal media
for growing all kinds of beer spoiling organisms.

================================    Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey                       Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu    Fort Collins, CO  80523
================================    +1 303 491 0630

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 12:21:11 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Apple Pie beer

The recent thread on "Apple Pie" beer and whether one could get (would
want) apple cider in it reminded me that there are certain yeast strains
that produce an apple character:

> HOMEBREW Digest #811                         Tue 28 January 1992
> 
> From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
> Subject: Wyeast Cultures ( George Fix )
> 
[snip]
> The American Pilsner strain is reported to be AB's production yeast. It
> produces apple like flavors found to some degree in all AB products. The
> culture from Wyeast, however, can have on occasion very strong apple flavors.
> These will diminish to some extent with aging, nevertheless measured
> acetaldehyde levels are always well above what is normally thought of as
> acceptable. It is my belief (totally without proof) that the Wyeast culture
> (unlike AB's production yeast) is a multi-strain culture.

You might consider using this yeast if you want an apple character in
your brew.
- --
Jim Grady             
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 11:23:29 -0600
From: Sean.Rooney at uic.edu (Sean Rooney)
Subject: King Kooker - which one?

I just received a catalog from Metal Fusion, the King Kooker manufacturer,
and I'm overwhelmed by all the different models.   Does anyone have insight
as to which is the ideal brewing stove?  Basically, there are 170,000 btu
"cast buner" models and 200,000 btu "jet burner" models, and each comes on
3 or 4 different stands.  I've read on HBD of problems with adjustability,
efficiency, and stability, and I remember somebody saying that a keg fit
perfectly on their stove.  Please help.

Thanks

Sean.Rooney at uic.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Steinbart's yeast

> From: John Horzepa (via RadioMail) <jhorzepa at radiomail.net>
> Subject: Wyeast "Steinbart" strain
> 
> I was at my local homebrew shop the other day, picking up the ingredients for 
> new batch.  The shop owner (whose advice I have found to be extremely good)
> recommended I try a new Wyeast strain, Steinbart (I believe #1021).  He said 
> is another American ale strain, and that it is currently in only limited
> distribution.  Does anyone know anything about this strain?  I decided to use
> it, as I have never gotten bad advice from the store before, but I'm just
> looking for any info on this strain that is out there.
> 
>
John,

You may find a remarkable similiarity between Steinbart 1021 and
American Ale 1056.  Remarkable similarity, really.

- --Jeff



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 09:58:34 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Coors "Weizen"

picoreview: it's not.

microreview: I don't know why they bothered.  Tastes like an american
lager.  No real wheat flavor, definitely no Weizen yeast flavor.

It's also got the word "stout" on the bottle.  But I think it's part
of the size designation: "stout 12 oz"  That is, it's a wider than
normal (longneck) bottle.  But I could be wrong.

=S

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 08:52:00 PDT
From: "McCaw, Mike" <mccaw at wdni.com>
Subject: re: Chili Beer


I have made several chili beers now, so here's my $0.02 worth.

I have found that almost all of the chili flavor/aroma and heat is scrubbed 
out in fermentation.  A chili in the bottle _can_ heat up a beer, but the 
final heat level will be quite unpredictable.  Chilis in the bottle or in 
the fermenter should be _BOILED_ at least ten minutes, (20 is safer) in a 
small quantity of water in a covered pot.  They will remain whole, but lose 
firmness.

The best technique I have found is to boil 1/2 to 1 pound of halved 
Jalapenos (adjust amount for pepper variety) in a half gallon of water in a 
small covered saucepan for about a half hour.  After cutting them in half, I 
remove the seeds from about half the batch.  Calibrate this extract by 
putting a tablespoon in a cup of beer and tasting.  With the peppers I get 
around here, 1-1./2 - 2 tbs is about right.  Then use this extract to top 
off the carboy at bottling/kegging time.  I just put the requisite amount in 
the keg, and fill on top of it.

I have gotten the best results with a lightly hopped pale ale, but have no 
objection to the lager (cave creek) approach.   When done right, there is a 
wonderful chili  nose and light chile flavor, enough bite to be assertive 
without being unbalanced or downright painful.

Mike McCaw (McCaw  at  WDNI.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:26:29 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: DOS beer software

	I posted the beta version of a beer recipe programme for DOS to 
rec.crafts.brewing.  I wouldn't mind posting it to sierra as well, does 
anyone know who to contact about that?  
	thanks
	ed

*--Ed Hitchcock---ech at ac.dal.ca----*
*--Anat.&Neurobio.---Dalhousie-U.--*
*--Halifax--NS--Can----------------*

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 15:15:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Greg Demkowicz <demkowg at mary.iia.org>
Subject: Re:Wyeast "Steinbart" strain


>From: John Horzepa
>recommended I try a new Wyeast strain, Steinbart (I believe #1021).  He said
>is another American ale strain, and that it is currently in only limited
>distribution.  Does anyone know anything about this strain?  I decided 
>to use

I've used this strain on my last 3 IPA. The slurry from the primary of the
first, was repitched on hte second batch. The slurry from the primary of
the second, was used on the third. Nice attenuation, ferments well at 70. 
I did a side by side comparison of the 1021 and the 1056. It behaves and
tastes like the Wyeast 1056, except maltier. I'll use it again.  I bought
mine from a shop in New Jersey. 

Greg




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 12:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Coronella <coronell at cs.unr.edu>
Subject: Dr. George Fix's email address

Could someone please drop me a line with George Fix's email address?

Thanks,

Chuck Coronella
Chemical & Metallurgical Engineering Department
University of Nevada, Reno
coronell at cs.unr.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 13:12:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Altbier yeast (not again!??)

In reference to the question of what is the "real" Dusseldorf yeast, I
finally got a chance to speak with Dave Logsdon.  Officially, W1007 is
the altbier strain, and originated in Dusseldorf (apologies for the
missing umlaut).  David said that, indeed, this is a very fluffy, poorly
flocculating strain, although it *will* flocculate (more or less)
eventually.

He agreed that, in a commercial setting, this provided some problems.
Most breweries simply cannot wait around for the yeast to settle, which
can take weeks.  However, he did offer some suggestions, particularly
useful for homebrewers.

1. Give it time.  Homebrewers have a real advantage in this regard, as
they don't have customers (well, there's always the occasional thirsty
spouse) wanting the beer NOW and don't have a lot of expensive equipment
tied up.

2. Use finings.

3. Rack the beer.  According to Dave (and judging from personal
experience with other yeasts), racking after primary fermentation will
go a long way toward helping the remaining yeast flocculate.  I gather
this is a particular issue with the cylindro-conical fermenters so
common among microbreweries.

He also agreed with my notion that the dynamics inside a bottle are
different than those in a large tank.  Given a bit of time, even a very
fluffy strain should flocculate once the beer is bottled.

- --Jeff (eagerly looking forward to brewing alts)



 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 15:23:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel Hays <dhays at tenet.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in Raleigh/Durham, I've Gott a question


My first posting to the HBD and it's a brewpub request.  Oh, well.

I'll be traveling to Durham, North Carolina July 8 and will also be 
spending a few days in Pinehurst, NC.  Any recommendations on 
area brewpubs to try?

Also, all this talk of the marvels revealed through all-grain brewing has 
this new brewer poised to take the plunge.  Okay, so I'm actually 
thinking of doing one or two more partial mashes first, followed by a kit 
beer or two to get confidence at its highest peak, then maybe daring to 
do a full blown *INFUSION* mash.  I've read the all-grain equipment FAQ, 
scanned a couple of books, and lurked around this digest a while to find 
what might best work for me as a lautertun.  I think it's the Gott cooler.  
Could those of you who use one tell me:

1.  Is the 5 gallon cooler adequate, or do you outgrow it and wish you 
    had bought the 10 gallon size?

2.  Is the cooler easy to retrofit with a spigot?

3.  False bottom or Phalse bottom?  I've even read that a folding steamer 
    basket works well.  What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your responses.  This HBD has been an invaluable 
resource.

Dan Hays
dhays at tenet.edu

P.S.  John Keane:  How did that Cooper's Ale kit turn out?


Return to table of contents


Date: 30 Jun 94 20:26:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: syrupVSdry/ShelfLife/CO2scrub/yeast+pressure/HubcabAle

Brian writes:
>     I've heard some people say that malt syrup gives more
>body to an ale than malt powder but I think that may be
>personal preference.

Also dependent on the brand.

>     They both have physical problems when using - syrup
>is messy and some find it a pain to handle. Powder absorbs
>air-borne moisture like a super sponge and is very sticky.
>     One thing to remember is that malt powder is almost
>all fermentable where as about 75% of syrup is (I think
>thats right). This means for a given weight of one you
>need to adjust if you use the other. Apart from that, I've
>always been told that they can be used interchangeably.

Yes, that's about right.  Different extracts have differing
amounts of water in them.  Alexanders has more than most,
but most of the rest are about 20% water.  Dry malt extract
starts out between 3% and 6% water and can, as Brian said,
absorb a lot of water out of the air.

As I said before, not all extracts are the same.  Some contain
corn sugar or other sugars.  I've limited my use to several
extracts with which I've had good luck (Northwestern, Munton & Fison,
Ireks, John Bull, Alexanders and Laaglander) and I know the
approximate fermentability of each.  Note that, contrary to
what Brian wrote, dry malt extract is not close to 100% fermentable.
Wort made with Laaglander Dry is only about 55% fermentable
(apparent attenuation) whereas M&F is more like 70%.  Note
also that yeast plays a role in this too, some yeasts being
more attenuative than others.

********
Andy writes:
>Somebody (sorry, I do not have a reference) wrote about malt lifetimes 
>recently, quoting (from memory) 6 months for liquid, 6 months for uncrushed 
>malt, 2 months for crushed pale malt in a well-sealed container.
>My question is: do you just throw out the malt after these intervals, or is 
>there some way of testing the malt to see if it is stale? Is this an easy test 
>or do you only find out after you've made the beer? What flavor profiles do 
>beers made with old malt possess?

Well, malt syrup will tend to get darker and pick up oxidation flavors
(sherrylike) as it ages.  Cooler temps help reduce this effect, warmer
tend to oxidize it faster.  At refrigerator temps, I would imagine you
could keep syrup for well over a year without much flavor degredation.

Uncrushed malt, kept dry and cool, can stay fine for well over a year.
I've brewed with two-year-old DeWolf-Cosyns malt which was stored at
60-65F in new, gasketted, thick, white, HDPE buckets and the beer turned
out very well.  Stale grain can taste grassy, musty, moldy, phenolic and/or
metallic (due to oxidation of lipids) and will impart similar flavors to
your beer.  Again warm temps and higher moisture will speed staling.
One very vivid example of the effect of moisture is the fact that two
brewing seasons ago, I stored my DeWolf-Cosyns CaraPils malt in one of
those 5 gallon HDPE buckets I mentioned above.  By the end of the brewing
season, the malt smelled very phenolic (like bandaids) and tasted similarly.
This last season, I threw a canister dessicant into the bucket with the
grain.  Last week, the grain still smelled and tasted as good as new.
Note that CaraPils is very high in moisture in terms of malts (twice as
high as some malts by the same mfgr), so this effect is most profound
in CaraPils, in my experience.

Crushed malt should ideally be used within a day or so or it will pick up
water (turn slack).  Within a few weeks it be noticably stale unless it
is stored in a moisture-proof package (immediately during the humid summer).

*******
Jeff writes:
>I thought it was another example of 
>someone thinking that bubbling CO2 would scrub dissolved O2.

As many others have explained, CO2 does scrub dissolved O2, but also
it scrubs out aromatics (malt, hop and fruit) so:

	to maximize malt aromatics, I would venture to guess that lower
	fermentation temps should increase malt aroma,

	to maximize hop aromatics, use dryhopping and add them after
	virtually all the CO2 has evolved, and

	to maximize fruit aromatics, again, wait till most of the primary
	ferment is over (the fruit will have its own ferment also, but
	what can you do?).

********

Pierre writes:
>Is this actually a known fact? I was assured by a microbiology professor 
>who works on the sucrose metabolism pathway in S. cerevisiae that there 
>is NO feedback inhibition by CO2 pressure on the fermentation enzymes.

I believe Charlie was the one who popularized this theory (?).  In my
own experience, a large headspace increases the carbonation in the finished
beer a significant amount, but a very small headspace doesn't decrease
the carbonation much at all.  I have not tried NO headspace.

Pierre-- if you could find out more about this and maybe relay our
observations, perhaps that prof could give us a better explaination?

**********
John writes:
>   Hubcap Brewery and Kitchen
>   Boysenberry Honey Ale
>   These guy's know how to make a very nice honey beer.  One of my favorites
>   from the 1993 GABF was their Killer Bee Honey Ale but Boysenberry Honey 
>   top's that one.  A very well balanced fruit beer that not too sweet but 
>   perfect!  This was a very close second to Phantom Canyon's for my best of 
>   show.

I agree regarding the Phantom Canyon, but must disagree on the Hubcap.  I
found it much too sweet (as if they added raw honey to the keg) with lots
of honey aroma and flavor, but absolutely no boysenberry.

Frankly, the best beer I tasted in CO was Jim Liddil's Best-Of-Show pLambic
(and I had Boon Gueuze on the Crazy Train (thanks ?) and Hansens pre-1983
Gueuze at a private tasting (thanks Dan)).

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: 30 Jun 94 20:28:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: warm ferments/dryhopping/fusels/isinglass/fast ferments

Aidan writes:
>Some may remember that I am fermenting a sort of bastard ale / 
>lager thingy at the moment, well it hasn't cooled down as quickly 
>as I had hoped and has spent at least a day fermenting at about 
>17 degC Will this produce all sorts of horrible Esters etc from 
>my Wyeast American Ale yeast?  

Not to worry.  At 17C (62F), Wyeast American Ale will produce a very
un-fruity ale.  With this yeast, you need to get up into the 20-22C
range to get significant esters.

********

Rick writes:
>So, I brewed a honey lager and I added
>1 ounce of Williamette hop pellets to the secondary.  It has been 11
>days, and the hops are still floating on top!  Someone said that
>they will fall out and sink to the bottom.  How long do I have to wait?

I wouldn't wait.  I'd siphon now, but you may want to attach a scrubbie
and a hop bag over the end of the siphon.

>but I wante to know how long it should take for the hops to settle out.
>Yes, next time I'll use a hop bag...

I wouldn't use a hop bag -- I'd use whole hops instead.  Even with a
hop bag, a significant amount of hop pellets will still come through
the bag.

********
Art writes:
>Ok, I admit it. I'm frustrated. Two of my last few batches have had problems 
>with fusel alcohols. They've both had fairly high OG. I believe I know what 
>happened to the first batch. It was a dubbel, and I used Chimay yeast which I 
>cultured from bottle dregs. The problems there were (probably) under
>pitching and fermenting at 66 degrees. Now I know better. The second batch was 

As you said later in your post, break material has been implicated by some
to increase fusel levels.  Note also, that both ester and fusel alcohol
production is also increased by higher-gravity worts and by higher-temp
ferments (also remember that fermenation is exothermic and a high-gravity
wort will generate a lot of heat -- that's the mistake I made with my
1.087 Chimay yeast banana/model_airplane_glue beer).

********
Steven writes:
>top to the malt extract there was three packets. One being the dried 
>brewers yeast, the second being a brewers yeast nutrient, and the third 
>was a packet (25ml) of Isinglass (sp?). When should I add this stuff? I 
>was going to add it when I rack to the secondary, is this correct? I 

I'm not sure how long you need to wait after adding the Isinglass, but
it should be added when fermentation is over.  It will take most of the
yeast out and unless you want a high-diacetyl beer, you want to make
sure that the yeast has had a chance to re-absorb the diacetyl it made.
Note also, that working with powdered Isinglass is a great deal more than
just sprinkling it in.  It needs to be prepared in an acidic solution
and rehydrated over a period of several days.  I suppose you could
redydrate it in finished flat beer (for the acidic solvent), but I've
never read step-by-step instructions for use.  Pre-mixed, liquid isinglass
is available from homebrew supply stores, but must be refrigerated after
preparation or will become useless.  Does anyone have detailed instructions
for preparation and use of isinglass?

********
There were a couple of question on fast ferments (like 1-2 days).  This
is not uncommon in warm weather, especially with dry yeast.  The result
is a highly estery beer with elevated fusel alcohol (solventy) levels.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 16:33:42 -0600
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Thanks!

I would like to thank all the brewer's out there who responded to my calls
for enlightenment. Thanks to you I will be able to refine my process while
still keeping things as simple as possible. The major points I got were to
1) Quit worrying; 2) Watch my temps before pitching my yeast; 3) Don't
rehydrate so long; 4) Short ferment times are not unusual; 5) Beer can sit
in the primary longer than 1 week; 6) After bottling a month is a
reasonable time to wait for the beer to carbonate up.

Thanks again!

By the way I tried a bottle from batch #1 last night. Nice flavor! Low
carbonation which I have been assured will improve with time!

Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of                |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'          |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin                |    (214)301-1307
                                   |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 08:47:43 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Navel gazing

Dear Friends, I just got through reading HBD 1463, which contained
something like 6 or 7 articles that had a line of the form "hope I don't
get flamed for this, but..."  I ask: Does this not say something about
us Digestors?  And I do NOT think it says "these idiots deserve to get
flamed."  Just a little thought.
Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au	NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 16:07:21 PDT
From: Karl Elvis MacRae <batman at cisco.com>
Subject: Multiple Hop Additions? Wha's with that?

	I have a question about recipes that call for multiple additions
	of hops (at 50mins, at 30, at 15, steep after the boil, dry...)

	I've seen various combinations in some recipies.

	My questions is, what's the point? 

	Does it produce some sort of complex layering of hop flavor and 
	bouquet?

	Or is it just 'one of those things people do'?


		Curious-

			-Karl

- -- 
  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Karl Elvis MacRae  Software Engineer  Cisco Systems, Menlo Park, CA, USA
  batman at cisco.com     415-688-8231   DoD#1999    1993 Vulcan Eighty-Eight 
  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
		"Hi, you look different! Are you a puppet?"
					-Barb

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 16:56:07 -0700
From: Jim Doyle <jgdoyle at uci.edu>
Subject: not happy with St.Patricks, Bridgeport Brewery

I suppose I should add my St.Patricks experience in with the rest...I
ordered three ball-lock for $33, and two o-ring sets for about $3/set.  A
week later, I got the three sticky, smelly, partially syrup filled tanks
strapped together with tie-wraps and duct tape.  After searching for the
receipt, I found it stuck on the sticky side of the duct tape.  Carefully
prying it off, I could barely tell that they had charged me $16 per set for
the o-rings which were not included at all.

Several phone calls and a month later, my o-rings appeared and the credit
was issued for tha "accidental" overcharge.

Another note...

I was in Portland this weekend, and saw the "amazing warehouse o'kegs"
which Jack StClaire had mentioned (and called about-thanks!).  It is truly
an awesome sight, although not a sankey to be found amongst the probably
two thousand there.  The guy didn't know how much to charge me, so I didn't
buy anything...

At the Bridgeport Brewery there, I asked for a tour of the facilities, and
was told rudely by a blond manager-type guy that Sunday is the day for
tours.  When my friend (a Portland person) mentioned I would be returning
to CA on Sunday, he said that had he known that, he wouldn't even take me
around at all.  I was not impressed by the level of service or attitude,
but the hand-pumped cask conditioned ale, and the xx stout were wonderful. 
Thanks for the leads...

Jim Doyle


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 12:33:23 EST
From: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Replies, mistakes, dry-hopping (long - sorry)
Full-Name: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen

Hi y'all

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post (it was quite 
overwhelming - I feel like I am in a "virtual brew-club"!).  

I assiduously replied to everyone who mailed me .. Phew!
But Mark Childers, your address just bounced when I replied,
not sure what happened there, so indulge me and I'll include a
few personal comments tha might be off general interest:

* Aidan, it was interesting reading your letter on HBD about the brewpub
* in Canberra.  Is the brewpub thing big down under or just starting?

I think it started, stopped, and is starting again.

* How about in other parts (Darwin, Perth).  

Well I have only been to Perth for 2 days but I it has the 
original Matilda Bay Brewing Company place, in Freemantle.  They 
make a sort wheat beer and quite a nice dark lager (thy don't 
call it a bock) called Dogbolter.  They have expanded their 
brewpubs, so there is one in Melbourne now, and ther is also the 
Geebung Polo Club in Melbourne too (haven't been there).  I 
haven't been to Darwin (it would be a bitch brewing there - very 
hot).  

Sydney has three brew-pubs that I know off, and they are all 
within 10 mins walk of each other in The Rocks.  Scharers has the 
nicest beer, they have a bock to DIE FOR!  All brewed using 
strict Reihengiwhatssit.  

* I was in N.Z. for some time and the availability of fresh, 
* english style beer was a real treat.

I am from NZ, Palmerston North to be precise, and I never saw a 
english style pub (cask conditioned hand pumped etc).  I never 
really liked most of the mega-beer in NZ either.  Where were you 
living in NZ?  Didya enjoy yourself (I am rather proud of my 
little country).  

The main reason for this post was:

* Some may remember that I am fermenting a sort of bastard ale / 
* lager thingy at the moment, well it hasn't cooled down as quickly 
* as I had hoped and has spent at least a day fermenting at about 
* 17 degC Will this produce all sorts of horrible Esthers etc from 
* my WYeast American Ale yeast?
		     ^^^
Sorry this should have been Lager yeast ...  sorry for the 
confusion, even I am not that stoopid to worry about Ale yeasts 
fermenting at 17 degC.  

I have racked the lager to a secondary, it seemed ok so fingers 
crossed.  I dry-hopped with Styrian Goldings (1 oz of whole hops).  

We'll see how it goes.  I should also say that I tasted my first 
stout using WYeast Irish Ale, only my second beer with liquid 
yeast, and it is beaut!  Even after only 10 days in the bottle, 
it is a full tasting beasty, but will age very nicely I think.  I 
would highly reccomend the use of Liquid Yeast, both the Wheat 
(WYeast Wheat) and the Stout I have done have been good, and 
definitely lacking that homebrew tang.  

* Rick Gontarek (gontarek at ncifcrf.gov) asked:
*
* Hello all!  I received several replies regarding how to dry-hop, and
* I'd like to thank everyone.  So, I brewed a honey lager abd I added
* 1 ounce of Williamette hop pellets to the secondary.  It has been 11
* days, and the hops are still floating on top!  Someone said that
* they will fall out and sink to the bottom.  How long do I have to wait?

Whole hops don't sink, they float, the pellets sink. This is ok,
just rack your beer out from under the hops, I think a hop bag
will reduce your efficiency (is that right??).

Later

Aidan

- --
Aidan Heerdegen				
e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 22:35:26 CST
From: sderose at smirror.tezcat.com (Steve De Rose)
Subject: Belgians coming to Chicago.

SR>   I must keep this brief.
SR>   Right now, I finally learned who
SR> shall be coming to play Germany at
SR> Soldier
SR> Field this Saturday [12noon].
SR>   It's Belgium.
SR>   That means that on Friday, a
SR> good number of Belgians shall be
SR> checking into
SR> Chicago hotels.
SR>   Here is the rare opportunity to
SR> meet living, breathing Belgians
SR> and,
SR> importantly, TALK BEER WITH THEM!
SR>   Perhaps we could even arrange
SR> for a formal interchange of beers
SR> between
SR> Chicago and Belgium.
SR>   Opportunities like this seldom
SR> occur. I will be at the Sheraton
SR> Towers,
SR> working out of the Transportation
SR> office the next 2 days. Call me  at 
SR> 312/464-1000 x1449. I'll know
SR> where the Belgians are staying (if
SR> it isn't the
SR> Sheraton Towers).
 >>>> Steve "Pudgy" De Rose 8=)> <<<<
      sderose at smirror.tezcat.com 


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 20:44:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: Summary of replies to lager yeast questions

In yesterday's HBD I posted some questions about my first-ever experience with
lager yeast, in particular Wyeast's Czech Pils strain.  I was concerned about
the really long lag time and sluggish primary fermentation I am experiencing. 
The replies I received had several points in common:

1.  Lager yeasts, generally speaking, do not ferment as spectacularly or as
quickly as ale yeasts.  Apparently a normal primary fermentation for lager is
10-14 days, with 3 weeks not at all uncommon.  The concensus is that my rate of
airlock glugging (one glug every 6 or 7 seconds) is nothing to worry about.

2.  A larger yeast starter was a universal recommendation.  I used a 1-quart
starter for this batch; next time I intend to use at least a half-gallon
starter -- maybe even 3 quarts.  One responder suggested that I ferment my
starter at the same temperature that I intend to conduct the primary
fermentation of the actual beer at, in order to avoid weird
temperature-differential effects.  This is advice that I intend to follow.

3.  Most responders suggested starting fermentation at ale-ish temperatures,
and to move the beer to a cooler environment after active fermentation is
evident.  I have mixed feelings about this advice.  Miller writes that this
technique will result in the production of more diacetyl than the yeast can
later reduce.  He goes on to say that the "correct" way to shorten lag times is
to pitch a larger starter.  I know that many HBDers consider Miller a little
anal, but I do not share this opinion; I intend to do things his way unless
experience convinces me otherwise.

Many thanks to those gallant souls who replied!  I especially liked the way you
all (or almost all) closed your messages with assurances not to worry and that
my beer would be great.  There's nothing like a little good HBD karma to set
your mind at ease!

Jay.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri,  1 Jul 94 05:37:00 UTC
From: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Use of rice as adjunct

   I have a question concerning rice as an adjunct. Normally I
boil rice for 30 minutes to gelatinize it before adding to the
mash. I recently bought some organic white rice flour, and
want to know if it can be used if the mash, and if it would
also need to be boiled before adding to the mash. I realize
that powdered rice is not rice starch, but I am at a loss.
Any help would be appreciated. Private e-mail would be fine,
or a small note in the HBD.   THanks in advance.
            e-mail address: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 8:26:37 EDT
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terri Terfinko)
Subject: Low Mash PH


     I have been monitoring the PH of my mashes very closely.    
Most recommendations on mash PH specify a safe range of 
5.1-5.8  My water has a PH of 5.8 and after mash in I get a 
reading of 4.6 from my PH meter.  The grain bill was 8 pounds of 
British 2 row pale malt and 1/2 pound of crystal.  I assume that 
darker malts, chocolate and black patent would lower the PH 
even further.
     Should I be concerned about a mash PH of 4.6 ?  If I wanted 
to raise it, what would I use?  What does a low PH do to the 
enzyme activity?  Any advice would be appreciated.

Terry Terfinko - terfintt at ttown.apci.com

Return to table of contents


Date:      01 Jul 94 07:20:55
From: MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com
Subject: St Pats rebuttal


FROM: "MICHAEL L. TEED"<MS08653 at MSBG>


   Dist:  INTERNET

 int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

I just read Jon Higby's response to the information requested on St Pats, and I
 am surprised at his response. I will attempt to limit bandwidth. Jon, if
someone asked you for information on a topic, and you did not agree with it,
would that then be a 'complaint'? You appear to feel that way. If you will
read my response, you will find no sign of a 'complaint', just the facts. I am
not upset over the kegs, but the o-ring set was a waste of $, as only one ring
out of the set was usable. That point was stated fairly.

In order to obtain a deal on an item, sometimes you sacrifice elements that
may not be important to you, but are to others. As you stated, St Pats sold
thousands of kegs, with few problems. I can buy kegs locally for little more
than the old price of their kegs, but thought I would be happy saving a few
dollars and ordering with St Pats. I still feel that way. But if you dont
agree with the information presented, dont label it a complaint, label it
as information, and be a man and accept your flames, be responsible for what
you speak in a public forum.

Mike Teed


Return to table of contents


Date:      01 Jul 94 07:32:19
From: MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com
Subject: Beer chiller


FROM: "MICHAEL L. TEED"<MS08653 at MSBG>


   Dist:  INTERNET

 int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

Saw the posting on chilling beer with a copper coil, and thought I would add
my comments. I have been doing so for about 2 weeks now, and have done some
experimenting on obtaining optimum results. My current setup, which I am happy
with, uses 18 foot of 3/8 OD copper tubing wound in a oval shaped 2 layer
coil, shaped to lay flat on the bottom of my 10 qt 'lunchbox' cooler. I chose
the laying flat position to minimize the consumption of natural resources,
being ice. I used 6 foot of beer line to come in to the cooler, which is a
bit long for line pressure drops, as I need 9 psi in the keg to get the same
results as 7 psi usually did for me with the cobra head tap, but is necessary
for placement of the keg on the floor and cooler on the countertop. Results
are good, I dont think you could pour a pitcher from this, but a 12 oz glass
works fine. To adapt to the end of the copper tubing, I used chrome plated
brass fittings ( I believe available from Foxx ) and ground the plating
off of the tubing insert end of them so I could use lead free solder to
attach them. Need more details, EMail me. I tried using shorter copper
lengths, but found less than 10 ft to be completely unacceptable.

Hoppy brewing
Mike Teed


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1465, 07/02/94