FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Filters and sub-micron filtering (STROUD)
  Looking for a 10gal GOTT (01-Jul-1994 0935 -0400)
  In Search Of the Perfect Pale Ale (Jim Busch)
  Flame (npyle)
  Re: kegging without a fridge and lager yeast questions (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Headspace/carbonation (Kelly Jones)
  Re: Red Dog and Alt (Alan_Marshall)
  Re: St. Pats (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Malt Mills (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Kegs / Passing of title (Todd Jennings)
  Keg FAQ (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: (Gordon Baldwin)
  Acquiring Half Barrels for Brewpots ("CANNON_TOM")
  headspace ad infinitum (Jonathan G Knight)
  shops near LAX (ANDY WALSH)
  mash filters/wound filters/motorizing mills/Bud ads/headspace/alts (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Hops Growth Question (berkun)
  Trivial pronounciation question (Dan Beauvais)
  wit yeast split batch ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Beer Styles and Dr. Lewis (darrylri)
  Re: King Kooker - which one? (Dion Hollenbeck)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 01 Jul 1994 08:39:31 -0500 (EST)
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Filters and sub-micron filtering


George Fix gave a talk at the AHA conference, part of which was about
filtering.  He told an interesting story, which I will attempt to
paraphrase here. 

George and Rodney Morris went over to Conrad Keyes' house (the RIMS
man) and were drinking some of Conrad's beer.  Conrad remarked that he
was surprised to find some yeast sediment still in the beer since he
had run it through a 0.5 micron filter.  At which point both George
and Rodney looked at each other - because they knew it was impossible
that any yeast had passed through a filter that was truly 0.5 micron.  
It appeared that Conrad's filter, which he had been told was 0.5 micron, 
was in fact much larger in pore size. 

George said that it wasn't necessarily that the retailer was trying to
sell the wrong filter size, but that there may be some
misunderstanding in the industry about the correct labeling of them. 

George put up a chart, showing the effect of different size filters. 
The bottom line is that a *true* 0.5 micron filter will take out _all_
yeast and probably all bacteria and will additionally remove
significant amounts of color and body from the beer (but
interestingly, IBU levels remain unchanged). Sterile filtering indeed,
but it also takes character out of the beer. This is no doubt the substance of 
Jim Busch's remark about some taste panels preferring unfiltered
pasteurized beers over the same sample that was submicron filtered.

So, Jack, it would appear that if you are filtering your beer through
a '0.5 micron' filter and getting a product that is not _totally_ clear and 
devoid of all yeast, then something is amiss, either technique or filter size -
most likely the filter size. 

Steve

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 09:36:26 EDT
From: 01-Jul-1994 0935 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Looking for a 10gal GOTT

Hi,

I'm looking for a 10 gallon GOTT cooler to be used for mashing.  I live
in the boston/southern_NH area and have not been able to find one.  A couple
stores (Sears, Lechemere) have the 5 gal, but no 10 gal.

any pointers would be helpful:

	ferguson at zendia.dec.com

thanks,
jc

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 10:27:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: In Search Of the Perfect Pale Ale

Teddy writes:
> I'm on a quest to build the perfect pale ale.  So far I've used a
> variety of malts in various combinations, including chocolate,
> different crystals, dextrine, different 2-row pale ale malts, and
>most recently Caravienne (which is very interesting, but not really on
> style).  What I'm trying to do is to make something like Pike Place
> Pale Ale, or Santa Fe Pale Ale.  Anybody got any ideas? 
> 

Pale ales are one of my most brewed beers.  I have gone through many
different ideas over the years, and I still like to experiment. The 
following are my opinions:

Dextrin malt is useless, or at least not required.  I love to use 
7-10% CaraVienna, it works fine in conjunction with other malts, 
depending on how dark and sweet you want the pale ales to be.  I 
personnaly dont like adding chocolate to PAs, but I understand the
reasoning and logic of those who do use it.  M&F Pale Ale malt is 
a absolutely fantastic malt, if you can afford the markup that 
results from C&Bs exclusive corner on the market.

A couple of mash bills:

2 row american malt
7% CaraVienna
5% high quality Munich (like Dewolf-Cosyns)
2% CaraMunich

You can alter the percentage of CV to CM, upping the CM for a 
darker and sweeter version.  Very small (1%) amounts of Biscuit
or Aromatic can be used to add a different quality.  I like adding
the Munich when using the US malt since this adds some malt body 
flavor and character to the beer.


OR

M&F Pale Ale Malt
5% Hugh Baird English Crystal

Obviously other caramel malts can be used, just figure out how 
dark and sweet you want the PS to be.

I have yet to use D/C pale ale malt exclusively, so I have no 
comment for now on this one.  Ill get to this in the fall.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 16:18:26 MDT
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com
Subject: Flame

Kip Damrow writes:

>At the risk of being flamed beyond recognition, due to over
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You should be.

>commercialism, I have waited to send this post until now
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Because of this.

>(this Friday, July 1, is my last day on the net). Relocation

Since you will be off the net, you feel it is ok to take one last cheap shot
on your way out.  This is how you want to be remembered?  I have not
reproduced your crass commercial because it is offensive.  Had you actually
contributed something to this digest it might be less so, but you did not,
and it is not.  This is like going to a party, eating and drinking all you
can find, and then farting on your way out the door (after first announcing
you will do so!).  I hope your business sense is better than your manners,
Kip.  I posted this message in the hope that it will discourage more of this
practice in the future (I'm a dreamer).  With green card lotteries, and get
rich quick schemes deluging usenet, I should've known it was only a matter of
time before the email lists were overrun.  Remember, this is about
homebrewing, not getting rich while someone else pays for your advertising.

**

John Hippe asks some good questions about equipment:

>Mash/Lauter Tun:  I am thinking of a round Gott type of cooler with
>either a strainer/grain bag or manifold which will drain out the modified
>spout.  Are there definite advantages/disadvantages to either?  What size
>cooler should I get?

I think the Gott is a good purchase, and I recommend a manifold, whether it
be a slotted copper pipe, or easymasher style.  Frankly I can't see any
advantages to a grain bag, period.

>Cooker:  I have seen the King Kooker for $50 with 170,000 btu but I am
>concerned with the stability of the tripod.  I found a Cache Cooker for
>$70 rated at about 100,000 btu which looks more sturdy.  What btu rating
>should I look for?  Does anyone have a distinct preference?

100K BTU is completely sufficient for 99% of all homebrewing operations.  My
kettle is fired with a water heater element which I guess is about 40K BTU,
and it cooks, literally!

>Brewing Outside:  I live in an apartment and will have to brew outside on
>the patio.  If I use a screen to cover the grains and then the wort will
>I be ok or is this a really lame idea?

Use the lid to cover the grain during mashing and don't worry about it during
sparging.  As far as the boil goes, a screen is fine, but I wouldn't worry
too much about that either.  What I _would_ recommend is that you make a
counter-flow chiller so that everything is a relatively closed system.  I
brew in my grungy garage and it works fine.  After the boil, I put the lid on
the kettle to keep bugs out (big ones as well as microscopic ones) and start
the chiller.  Out of the chiller it goes into the fermenter with a piece of
plastic wrap around the neck where the tube goes in.  The positive pressure
of the liquid filling the fermenter is pushing out air, so you have little
chance of sucking in bad stuff.  An immersion chiller built into a tight
fitting lid, ala Jack Schmidling, will also work fine.  Just keep caps on
things once they've been sanitized (like the fermenter, chiller, etc.).

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 11:00:11 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: kegging without a fridge and lager yeast questions

IMHO, the "best" way to start a lager is this: grow a BIG starter at
your fermentation temperature (e.g., 50F/10C).  By BIG, I mean 1/2 - 1
gallon (2-4 liters).  You'll want to do it in two steps, first with
250-400ml (1-2 cups), then into the larger amount.  Let this ferment
out "all the way".  Pour the "beer" off the top, and swirl up the
slurry and pitch into your chilled (to 50F/10C), *aerated* wort.  You
should get a quick start (12 hours or less) and a fast (for a lager,
anyway) fermentation.  You have to start at least a week ahead to use
this method, but it gives good results.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 10:23:39 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Headspace/carbonation

In HBD 1464,  pittock at rsbs8.anu.edu.au wrote:

>Well for my mind, there are two things to be said:
>Firstly, The more headspace there is, the more CO2 that can build
>up in the headspace. 
<snip>
>for a given CO2 pressure in the headspace, there is an
>*equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the beer.  SO, when you release the
>pressure instantly (open it!), the  pressure in a large head space (which
>has presumably produced a high *equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the
<snip>

This concept was also put forward by someone else a few days ago, but
it reflects a complete misunderstanding of the physics involved.  We
must differentiate between _quantity_ of CO2 and _pressure_ of CO2.
Sure, a bottle with more headspace has more CO2 in the headspace.
That's like saying a gallon jug holds more water than a pint glass.
But the pressure of CO2 in the headspace has not gone up just because
there's more CO2 in a larger volume.  The pressure is the same.  And
since it's pressure that determines carbonation level, the carbonation
level should be the same.  

In the same post, this writer says:

> (And to take it further, an over-carbonated bottle
>with a large headspace will go *GRENADE STYLE*, whereas an overcarbonated
>bottle with *NO HEADSPACE* will just go "clink" and spill out).

This is true.  A pressurized gas holds much more energy than a
pressurized (incompressible) liquid, and thus releases much more
energy in the form of an explosion when the pressure is released.
This is why CO2 and SCUBA tanks are pressure tested by filling them
with pressurized water, not gas.

Back to the subject of overcarbonation: Frankly, I have never
experienced this phenomena, and feel it might simply exist only in
peoples' minds. (That should earn me a few flames.)  On the basis of
the physical science of carbonation, there is just no reasonable
explanation for this phenomena.  But since so many people have claimed
to have witnessed it, perhaps we should keep looking for a reasonable
explanation.  In a later post in the same HBD, cush at msc.edu
puts forward a couple guesses:

>1) In an underfilled bottle, N2 and O2 dissolve into the beer.  The greater
>the headspace, the more gasses dissolved, and the higher the 
>apparent 'carbonation' (though I suspect the volumes of gas are too low for
>this...)

Not just their volumes, but their solubilities.

>2) Oxidation due to O2 left in the headspace produces a larger volume
>of some gas (CO2?)  I do not know the stoichiometry of the reaction(s).

One molecule of O2 can create, at most, one molecule of CO2, thus, 
I do not feel this can be the explanation.

I'll propose another theory: Could the extra O2 in the headspace be
allowing more yeast respiration, which could lead to higher levels of
yeast, which could ( maybe) allow for higher attenuation/higher
carbonation in the bottle?

Kelly 

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 11:32 EDT
From: Alan_Marshall <AK200032 at Sol.YorkU.CA>
Subject: Re: Red Dog and Alt

In HBD 1464, Seam MacLennen writes:

> I tried my first Red Dog beer last night. It is supposedly an Alt beer.
> There has been a lot of talk about Alt beers recently but no description
> of the style. I can't believe that a beer popular in Germany can be so
> bland! Therefore I am interested in any information anyone has about Alt
> beers.

Red Dog is not really an alt beer.  Molson is blending an ale and
lager to make it, despite their claims that they are brewing it using
a special yeast and a technique that is centuries old.  (That's what
they tell you when you call their consumer information line.)  In
terms of taste and character, Steve Beaumont (who wrote the Great
Canadian Beer Guide) tells me it is vaguely similar to an alt, but I
presume much more bland.  BTW, there has not been a real alt sold in
Ontario for many years, if ever. 

Apparently, they are using the term "alt" to convey the message of it 
being an "alternative" beer, in harmony with their advertising, which 
uses the slogan "You've got to be your own dog" and showing a bulldog 
exhibiting very individualistic, rebellious and belligerent behaviour.
In short, another mega-swill with much merit pushed on us through 
lifestyle advertising.  If you want to party, drink Golden; if you 
want to get laid, drink Bud;  if you want to do your own thing, drink 
Red Dog.

Alan Marshall

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 08:49:43 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: St. Pats

>>>>> "Jon" == Jon Higby <unisql!jonh at cs.utexas.edu> writes:

Jon> I've been watching the posting about St. Pats kegs. Being local to St. Pats
Jon> and a regular customer, I would like to provide some insight.

Jon> 6.) Complaints in general: You are buying used kegs. Complaints
Jon> about syrup still being inside, the outside having scratches,
Jon> small dents, being taped together when shipped, etc are
Jon> ridiculious.

An in fact, the very fact that there is still syrup inside is a *good*
sign.  The best kegs I have bought mail order came with a cup or two
of syrup inside and still pressurized to 50 psi.  This assured me that
I was indeed getting good kegs.  I would rather have it that way than
to find out they do not hold pressure.

I am really surprised that St. Pat's is taking the time to pressure
test.  This is more than most suppliers do.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 08:55:11 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Malt Mills

>>>>> "Terri" == Terri Terfinko <terfintt at ttown.apci.com> writes:

Terri>      I am planning to upgrade my Corona malt mill to a roller style 
Terri> mill.  Currently I have the Corona powered by a 1/4 HP electric 
Terri> motor that is belt driven by a 1 inch pulley on the motor and
Terri> a 12 inch pulley on the mill.  This gives a nice speed for milling.  I 
Terri> also built a hopper attachment that allows me to dump in 10 
Terri> pounds of grain.  This setup allows me to take care of other tasks 
Terri> while the milling is going on.  
Terri>      I am interested in knowing if the available roller style mills can 
Terri> be adapted to this same setup.  Are there any manufacturers that
Terri> discourage motorizing their mills?  Any success stories?

I have successfully motorized a Glatt.  Used a 1/20hp motor running at
1750 RPM geared down 8:1.5 with pulleys.  I put the motor on a
platform *below* the mill and the platform is hinged on one side only.
The weight of the motor acts as a clutch and if the large pulley is
stopped, the motor pulley just skips and hops on the V belt, so if the
rollers ever jam, I doubt I will break gears.  The warranty on the
Glatt is voided if you motorize it, but Greg has said he will provide
replacement gears if you chew them up.  I would prefer metal gears,
but so far have not had trouble.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: 01 Jul 94 13:14:14 EDT
From: jennings at readmore.com (Todd Jennings)
Subject: Kegs / Passing of title

Louis Bonham from HBD 1464:
>Agreed that the brewery-distributor contract probably contains
>written language regarding title to the kegs.  However, it
>does not obviate the apparent ability of the distributor to
>pass title to the kegs -- distributors routinely dispose of
>unclaimed ("abandoned") kegs, and thus I submit that from this
>fact and the "implicit sale of a container" analysis previously
>discussed, the distributor is sufficiently in the business of
>selling kegs to pass title.  Thus, I believe that the jeweler
>hypothetical is applicable. 

Property law dictates that unless by written or oral contract(and a few 
other                                             particulars like 
adverse possession), title can only pass when there is a bona             
                              fide purchaser.  In the scenario of the 
jeweler and the watch, the third party
who the jeweler sold the watch to would be a bona fide purchaser because 
the sale of jewelry items is customarily transacted in the jeweler's 
shop.
This situation is entirely different from the consumer buying a keg of 
beer
from the distributer.  The consumer would not be considered a bona fide
purchaser, mainly because it is not the distributor's customary business 
to
sell the keg with the beer.  The deposit given is customarily for 
purposes of insuring 
that the keg will be returned(After all, he has an obligation to the 
brewery).  Some                              vendors even go as far as 
saying to the customer that their deposit will be refunded                
             upon return of the keg.  This IMPLIES that the keg is to be 
returned.  No bona fide                           purchaser, therefore no 
title passes.

Now, I don't know how abandonment would apply here, but perhaps after a 
time
the keg would then belong to he/she who is in possession(anybody know 
THOSE
laws?).  And as far as the discussion on low deposits goes, distributors 
probably 
started out low because, as with any insurance, the rate goes with the 
risk.  Who would 
want an empty keg at home?  What use would it be?  Then, as home brewing 
and home
kegging grew, distributors raised their deposit rates(greater risk).  
That's probably when                  states stepped in.  They imposed 
limits on deposits to cut the up front costs to the                       
consumer in order to increase commerce(more sales, more tax revenues, 
right?).

Anyway, I've been enjoying the thread and wanted to get in both my 
pennies of value.
Flame away!!!

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 12:13 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Keg FAQ


 mailx -s "filters" homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
 
 >From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
 
 
 >I think that it might be a good idea to put together a 1/2 Barrel
 Converted Keg FAQ.  I'd be willing to do all the work.  Anyone care to
 offer any feedback on whether or not this would be a good idea?  I was
 thinking that it could have sections on acquiring, design,
 implementation, cost, commercial sources, etc...  I'd like to hear
 what people think.
 
 Great idea.  Here is my first contribution.....
 
 
 * COMMERCIAL ITEM...
 
 I offer a Sabco compatible EASYMASHER (tm).  This is an EM strainer assembly 
 that screws directly into the 1/2" nipple on the Sabco keg.  You can buy the 
 kettle with the spigot or pick out one at the hardware store.
 
 js

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 08:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: gbaldw at zaphod.usin.com (Gordon Baldwin)
Subject: Re: 

> 	I am considering going to full volume boils, but am 
> daunted by the cash outlay for both a large SS pot and a 
> propane cooker, so wish to do it piece-meal.  My question 
> regards the feasibility of using my stove for full volume boils.  
>  - Knowing the BTU rating of my (gas) stove, how can I 
> calculate the time to reach boil?  

I don't think the calculations will be very accurate. There are too many
variables besides the BTU rating.

>  - Are there those of you out there who use kitchen stoves for 
> full volume boils, and if so have you any comments or advice?
> 
I use our kitchen stove for full volume boils. I have an 8 gallon
ceramic on steel pot that rests mostly over 2 burners. It works pretty
well. I start the boil while I am still sparging and I have it to a boil
before I get about 1/2 sparged. It also keeps a nice rolling boil going.

One piece of advice, Clean the stove top very well before you start. Any
gunk on the stove top will bake on during your long boil and be almost
impossible to clean later. Luckily now we have a SS top on our gas
stove, so if I forget to clean stuff up I just whip out the steel wool
and buff it out.

- -- 
Gordon Baldwin
gbaldw at usin.com
Olympia Washington

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Date: 1 Jul 94 13:52:00 EST
From: "CANNON_TOM" <CANNON_TOM at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Acquiring Half Barrels for Brewpots

Message Creation Date was at  1-JUL-1994 13:52:00
      
          Just some input on the current half barrel acquisition
          debate.

          I stopped by my local dealer to pick up a keg for home
          consumption (Dominion Summer Wheat - not quite as thick as
          last year, but delicious none the less).  I asked the dealer
          what happens when the keg is not returned.  He said, no
          problem to him since he keeps the ten buck deposit.  I asked
          about the distributer, and he said no problem there either
          because the distributer is not about to track down every
          wayward keg (even in Virginia where, by law, for each keg,
          the buyer has to show ID and provide address as to where the
          keg will be consumed).  The bottom line is that there is no
          keg police out looking for your 15.5 gallon stainless steel
          brewpot.  On the other hand, the brewery is not about to
          lose $100 per lost keg.  They just past the cost on to the
          consumer in terms of more expensive beer.

          This isn't legality, just reality.

          Brew on.

          Tom Cannon
          DH Brewery
          Fairfax/Annandale VA


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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 1994 13:29:10 -0500 (cdt)
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: headspace ad infinitum


Some of the discussion on headspace wrt carbonation has been over MY head, 
since I am one of those non-technical, humanities types.  However I have a 
question that may be related.  Some while back in the HBD it was opined that, 
when bottling, if you leave the bottle cap on top of the bottle without 
sealing it for a few minutes, the CO2 from the yeast will purge the headspace 
of unwanted O2.

(1) I can't really believe that the yeast is kicking out all that much CO2 at 
this stage.
(2) If it's true that O2 can migrate back and forth across the cap seal 
anyway, then doesn't that negate the intended effect of the "natural" CO2 
purge described above?

Thoughts, anyone?

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 10:45:49 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: shops near LAX

I am on a noble quest.
My homebrew club in Australia (Eastern Suburbs Brewing - Mel Robson says Hi to 
Jack Schmidling (oh no, not more flamewars!)) wishes to establish its own 
judging certification program.
The problem is: judges need to know what the unusual styles homebrewers tend to 
make are supposed to taste like, but commercial examples are unavailable in 
Australia. We need to educate our judges. 
I am going to Mexico in September via Los Angeles (LAX). My mission is to buy 
as many good, commercial, unusual *ales* as I can carry in LA, and
take them back to Australia, for judge education.
Questions:
     - what shops could I contact (preferably close to LAX - I know how big
LA is and how hard it is to get around) who would be willing to sell me 
these beers (and pack them for transport)?
    - what brands are available that I should ask for? Maybe there is a list
the importers (I assume most are European beers) have we could look
through?
    - Does anyone want to help me on my quest? I could possibly bring 
some Australian beer across as a favour (not that there are many good 
ones - Coopers, Hahn, Scharers, Matilda Bay are a few exceptions).

     Styles I wish to buy - all Belgians, alts, Imperial stouts, kolsch, 
American 
ales (yeah - I know about Sierra Nevada) etc.
     Private mail welcome,

Andy W.






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Date: 1 Jul 94 18:40:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: mash filters/wound filters/motorizing mills/Bud ads/headspace/alts

John writes:
> - JP) This is a very fast system. Filters are setup like a DE filter except
>that they pump the grain into it rather than D.E. and use the grain as the
>"filter" medium. I don't think the filter system is in great use.

I don't know what other Industrial brewers do, but Coors uses mash filters
just like John described.  They look similar to a plate and frame filter.

********
Jack writes, quoting Jim:
> >Comparing string wound filters to pleated ones is a waste of time. 
> 
> How can you possibly say that?
> 
> A major supplier of homebrew filter systems sells string wound filters. I 
> bought one of them and was unable to get results that were worth the effort.  
> I ran the tests to prove that the .5 micron string wound is no better than 
> the others and again to determine if the one from the Filter Store was any 
> better. I learned what I wanted to know and for you to tell me it was a waste 
> of time is pretty silly.  Furthermore, I published the results of my test and 
> probably saved lots of other folks from making the same mistake.

At the conference in Denver, Ed Busch gave a talk on filtering.  There was
an awful lot of information and I'm sure that I'll get a clearer picture of
it after I read the Conference Transcripts (which, incidentally were just
photocopied 8.5x11" stapled sheets, available BEFORE the talks even began!).
In any event, a few things I do remember are that the string-wound filters
are not particularly efficient, nor is their pore size actually very
predictable.  This, I believe is what Jim was trying to say: that with string
 -wound filters, the pore size is hit-and-miss, whereas with membrane filters,
like the pleated PP, it is more predictable.  Ed said that when you order
a 3-micron string-wound filter, some suppliers just weigh the filters and
send you a heavier one, since it has more string and thus probably a smaller
pore size.  One use that Ed has found for the wound filter cartridges is to
make a cover for it out of handkerchief material, put the cover on the
cartridge and the cartridge in the housing, prime with water and start
recirculating water.  Then you add diatomaceous earth (DE) and pre-coat the
handkerchief.  Next, you dose your beer with more DE and then switch from 
water recirculation to beer.  You have to keep the dose DE in suspension
(Ed uses a magnetic stirrer he found as scrap).

And Jack... settle down -- you're getting cranky again.

*******
Terry asks:
>     I am interested in knowing if the available roller style mills can 
>be adapted to this same setup.  Are there any manufacturers that
>discourage motorizing their mills?  Any success stories?

I've motorized the adjustable JSP MaltMill with a 1 1/2" on a 1720rpm, 1/6 hp
motor and a 12" on the mill.  Works great!  6 pounds per minute, which I
could increase if I widen the input slot.

*********
Teddy writes:
>Does anyone know if the AHA made a statement to Budweiser in regards
>to their Bud Light ad?  I realize that there may be some conflict

I'm sure they didn't and why would AB care if they did?  Bud spends more on
producing one TV commercial than 1 year's operating budget for the AHA, let
alone the millions they spend airing those commercials.  Consider, however,
that most of the people who drink Bud wouldn't bother to make the effort to
brew, nor would they like the result anyway, so they are not really making an
impact other than perhaps sparking the interest in homebrewing among
import/micro drinkers... and this is good.

On a somewhat related note, I got a chance to try Elk Mountain Ale in Denver.
The tent card said all kinds of things like "all malt" and "full-bodied."
I was suspicious.  Finally, on the bottom, there is was: "Anheuser-Busch."
I just asked for a sample, not a whole glass, and the beer was amazingly
flavorful and was not lacking in body.  There was some diacetyl and some
hops in the nose, a significant bitterness and solid malt flavor.  The
overall balance was on the malty side, but it is unquestionably a very
drinkable beer.  Given the choice between Elk Mountain and Sierra Nevada,
I'll still choose the little guy, despite the fact that I might actually
be in the mood for a more malty beer, but given the choice between EM and
seven watery, industrial beers, I'll choose the EM (in the past, I used to
just order water or wine).  A-B seems to believe that it can advertize
against its other products as if nobody knows that when Bud commercials
slam Dry beers or Ice beers, they are slamming their own products.  Strange...

*******
Chris writes:
>background), for a given CO2 pressure in the headspace, there is an
>*equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the beer.  SO, when you release the
>pressure instantly (open it!), the  pressure in a large head space (which
>has presumably produced a high *equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the
>beer), this produces a sizable *differential* between the current conc. and
>the new equilibrium conc. thus causing the excess dissolved CO2 to come
>with a rush (over-carbonation?!).  On the other hand, if there's no head
>space, there's no significant equilibrium to start with.  And so no
>significant differential to force CO2 out of solution.

Yes, you did try Chris, but I'm afraid this is not the answer.  Consider that
even in the bottle with no headspace, when you open the bottle, the new
equilibrium must be established with the entire atmosphere of the earth,
hence the reason that CO2 comes out of solution at all.  No, I'm afraid
your hypothesis isn't quite right.

*****
Sean writes:
>I tried my first Red Dog beer last night. It is supposedly an Alt beer.

True Dusseldorf Alt is a 1.050 or so, very malty, highly hopped (50+ IBU)
amber to dark_copper colored beer.  The beer is by no means bland and if the
Red Dog was indeed bland, then it's not a Dusseldorf Alt.  There are other
alt styles, like Munster Alt which is quite a bit different in that (from
what I gather) it is paler, lighter, can contain a significant amount of
wheat and is much less intensely malty and less intensely hoppy.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 12:17:26 PDT
From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com
Subject: Hops Growth Question

My hops are up to the top of the structure I built to hold them.  I call 
it a structure for lack of a better word (something closer to a Science 
Fiction radio antenna for Alien Spacewaves).  This is cool, as it's at 
least 17 feet high.

My question concerns the growths that are coming out of the hops plant 
at the leaves.  They look like additional stems.  Some are getting quite 
long.  Some are little stubs.  Are these "brachs"?  Are they good?

There are no flowers yet.  Do I trim these things, or just let them 
alone?  I hope I get to let them alone, as I don't know how I'll trim 
the ones up at 17 feet!

This is my first attempt at hops, and so far it's impressive as hell.

Thanks!

Ken B.
Seattle


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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 18:08:45 -0400
From: Dan Beauvais <beauvais at bbt.com>
Subject: Trivial pronounciation question

How is "Wyeast" pronounced?  (I SAID it was trivial...)

- ---
Dan Beauvais  			            beauvais at bbt.com
BroadBand Technologies, Inc.                phone: +1 919/405-4630
4024 Stirrup Creek Drive, PO Box 13737      fax:   +1 919/405-4511
Research Triangle Park, NC  27709-3737


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Date: 1 Jul 1994 21:19:17 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: wit yeast split batch

Subject:  wit yeast split batch

From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
>We recently made a batch of Wit beer with 5 yeasts.  4 of these were
>originally cultured from bottles.
Nope, the Hoegaarden was not from a bottle.  Dentergem was from The 
Yeast Culture Kit Co.   Only Bruge and Steendonk were bottle cultures.

>A quick run-down in order of
>preference (most preferred first).  

>Blanche de Bruges:	
>Dentergem:		
>Hoegaarden:		
>Steendonk:	
I count 4.  The 5th was BrewTech CL-90 (? or whatever they carry as 
their Belgian wit strain).  I would insert this one in the middle, before
Steendonk mostly because it was a slow worker at 66-68F and consequently 
overcarbonated which masked the subtle nuances. It was soft, fruity 
and similar in many respects to the Hoegaarden.  I must stress that 
ALL of these were very good IMHO.  Phil Seitz returned 24 (!) scoresheets 
on the CL strain, the mean score was in the middle 30's.  The Bruges 
scored 37.5 in the first round Nationals, but got blown out by one of its 
stronger cousins (dubble and tripple).

15 gallons were split into 5, 3 gal ferments.  All of these were fermented 
at the same temperature, pitched with the same volume of culture at the 
same time, ie as good a comparison as I could muster.

Scores and comments (from our local group):
Brugge   38 pts   aroma:smoky aroma-hammy, yeasty, fruity, bready
                  flavor:big orange flavor, subdued corriander, tannic and dry 
                  body: moderate sweetness
CL-90    36 pts   aroma:orange, bubblegum, banana, phenolic, clove, corriander,
                        smoke
                  flavor:moderate phenol, honey
                  body: residual sweetness
Denter.  35 pts   aroma:dry smoke, hammy, crisp (like dry white wine), sweet 
                  flavor:stronger phenol, dry, more angular, orange, smoke
Hoegaard 34 pts   aroma:honey wheat bread, yeasty, bready, very fruity,
explosive
                        nose, smells like Celis
                  flavor:soft phenol, not much to get excited about, softer 
                  body: moderate sweetness
Steend.  31 pts   aroma:sharp lactic nose, orange and honey, 
                  flavor:phenololic, dry, sharp, flat finish, no pizzaz
                  body: angular and dry

The Brugge version was submitted to the Nationals:
   aroma:nice corriander,orange peel evident, slight clove, clean and 
         spicy. Extradordinary.
   flavor:high carbonation contributes to sharpness, great balance.
   body: reasonable and correct, overcarbonated.

The CL-90 version was submitted to Phil's class:
Scores ranged from 25-45.  Mean=34.3 (Judges, you know who you are!...lots 
of familiar names).
Comments are ALL over the place, but the overcarbonation comments were 
consistant. Some found it too acid, some not enough.  Some thought it 
fruity and clean, others found the soft phenols detracting.  Hammy was a 
frequent comment as was smoke, clove, orange and corriander.

My favorite (now after 3 months) is the Dentergem, I like the dry, light 
presentation and balance.  It is quite remarkable that in addition to 
differences in esters and phenols there were clearly differences in the 
accentuation of corriander verses orange.  
 
>I believe the new YeastLab Belgian White yeast is from the Blanche de
>Bruges culture.
Yup

>Most of these yeasts seem to be temperature sensitive, slowing down
>considerably below about 68-70F.
I agree 100%

*****************************
From: Liana Winsauer <lon at pshrink.chi.il.us>
>So you want to make bread with your beer dregs?  No problem.  Bread,
>contrary to popular opinion, is as easy or easier than beer.  Time 
>consuming (but not as much as beer), but easy.  If you've never tried 
>making bread at all before, I suggest you make a few straight batches
>before making it with beer yeast.

Maybe Jeff Renner (Pro Baker Extraordinare, who thinks that he is his 
wife) can comment.

************************
From: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com
>A person that I
>worked with( and a lover of verrrry hot/spicy stuff) took one
>bite of a habanero, spit it out, and still had to go to the
>emergency room; missed a day of work, too. However, I realize
>that telling someone to NOT do something is tantamount to
>daring them to do it, so go ahead if you have some free time
>to recover.

Reminds me of the time (North Dakota, very cold winter ca 1964) my 
mother told me that whatever I did, I was NOT to lick the metal screen 
door.........

DanMcC




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Date: Sat Jul  2 07:25:59 1994
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: Beer Styles and Dr. Lewis

The juxtaposition of these two items in #1465 was hard to pass up...

"Mark C. O'Connor" <moc at well.sf.ca.us> writes:
[Regarding Dr. Lewis]
MO> 1)  He instructed us to first master the "pale beer" and use that as a base
MO> to create higher gravity and darker colored brews with adjuncts.  He
MO> encouraged us to proceed slowly, changing one thing at a time.  That way we
MO> could more easily identify the steps in the process and the ingredients that
MO> affected the flavor.

RAYMUN at delphi.com writes:
R> I am a little confusted on the way to create a beer recipe. I 
R> have looked at cats meow and other similar recipe bases and 
R> have noticed that many different beer types have the same 
R> exact ingredients. HOw can this be?
[...]
R> According to SUDS all I do I guess is match the color, HBU's 
R> and gravities to make a style of beer?  This seems to easy. 
R> How can just changing a beers color, change the beers style?
R> Or adding 1 of 2 more HBU do the same?

I would submit to you that the ideas in the former post lead to
the questions in the latter post, when it is not clarified that
the point of using a pale beer as a base to experiment upon is
for the edification of the brewer, not particularly the enjoyment
of beers that imitate styles from different locales.

Technique can be just as important as ingredients.  It affects
the potential flavors provided by the ingredients and can result
in dramatically different flavors and colors that cannot be
accounted for directly by simplified experiments as described
above.  

It is also the case that not all beers are made from a pale base
with adjuncts thrown in.  The suggestion above, if taken
exclusively, prevents imitating many styles successfully because
they are not made from a pale base.  

This leads to mock bock beers, for example, that taste like big
brown ales or worse, like big porters.  You can get a nice 15-20
SRM beer by adding a lot of crystal malt, or some
chocolate/black malt (or both).  To me, however, neither of those
would taste like a true German bock beer, which gets its flavors
from a high level of Munich malt and a double or triple
decoction mash.

One point of making beers to a style is to discover more about
the beer making process, and how a wider view can make more
interesting beers for ones own enjoyment.

Regarding Dr. Lewis, I have only been able to see him speak once,
at last year's Home Brew U in Seattle.  He is a very engaging
speaker, but I felt that I was being talked down to, and this was
reinforced by a rather disengenuous remark he made.  In his talk
he was quite clear in stating, as he has done for quite a while,
that the protein rest does nothing for proteins, and if anything,
it serves a useful role for getting the malt starch liquefied.

After his talk, I asked Dr. Lewis how that comment jibed with
a paper of his published in the MBAA Technical Quarterly
("Proteolysis in the Protein Rest of Mashing -- An Appraisal",
MBAA TQ v29, #4, 1992) which very clearly shows protein
breakdown and corresponding FAN increases occuring in mash
conditions that are similar to those generally used by home
brewers.  His reply, I felt, was quite telling.  He said that
home brewers needed to be given absolutes.  I'm much more
interested in finding out what's known and figuring out how
to use it myself, however. 

A couple more comments, because I can't resist:
MO> micro-brew or import connoisseur.  He calls Bud a "splendid" beer, finds
MO> "styles" and fussing about "ales vs. lagers" dated and silly, says "trained
MO> tasters" can't distinguish "body" (or at least have widely divergent
MO> perceptions of it) in a beer and blind tests have revealed most homebrew

This is a fascinating idea, since Mouthfeel appears prominently
in Dr. Meilgaard's classic paper on beer flavor perception, and
the "flavor wheel" that he and others developed for the EBC and
the ASBC to define standard terms for beer tasters to use.

MO> 2)  He repeatedly emphasized that beer brewing was personal and the only
MO> palette we had to satisfy was our own.  Pleasing judges in a contest could
MO> be gratifying but its not the same as brewing for personal satisfaction.  He

I could not agree with this more.

MO> felt contests were to tied up in traditional categories and that this was

He should get online in the JudgeNet digest some time!  Contest
categories are somewhat arbitrary, especially regarding areas like
porter/stout and IPA, where the origins of the style are now in
strong opposition to the current commercial interpretations, either
or both of which may not be reflected by the National Homebrew
Competition categories.

MO> too limiting, it was important to brew good quality "beer", not such and
MO> such ale or what have you.  He was challenged by several students on this,

What I find interesting about brewing to style is to find out how
brewers have produced "good quality beer" under widely different
circumstances.  They are a resourceful bunch, and historically have
not had the opportunity ``to first master the "pale beer" and use
that as a base''.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Sat, 2 Jul 94 07:35:41 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: King Kooker - which one?

>>>>> "Sean" == Sean Rooney <Sean.Rooney at uic.edu> writes:

Sean> I just received a catalog from Metal Fusion, the King Kooker
Sean> manufacturer, and I'm overwhelmed by all the different models.
Sean> Does anyone have insight as to which is the ideal brewing stove?
Sean> Basically, there are 170,000 btu "cast buner" models and 200,000
Sean> btu "jet burner" models, and each comes on 3 or 4 different
Sean> stands.  I've read on HBD of problems with adjustability,
Sean> efficiency, and stability, and I remember somebody saying that a
Sean> keg fit perfectly on their stove.  Please help.

That was me.  I have the Kamp Kooker, the one with the ring burner and
a stand which is only 8" high (including burner height).  I am not
sure if it is the 170k, I thought it was 135k, but it sure is enough
for my 7 gal boils and I still have not turned it up all the way.
Don't buy any legs, you can make them from 3/4" electrical conduit and
crutch feet and make them custom.  I advise keeping the keg as low as
possible.  When I first got my burner, I set a keg on it to test it
out and it fit perfectly.  Now, I never rest the keg on the burner.
Since I have both a sparge boiler and wort boiler which are separate,
I have a wooden stand on which I have angle iron supports on which the
kegs actually sit.  The burner is on legs underneath the stand and can
slide back and forth between the two kegs freely.  There is about 1/2"
of space between the bottom of the angle iron and the  top of the
burner frame.  In that manner, I only need one burner for two boilers.

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1466, 07/04/94