FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Used Kegs (RONALD MOUCKA)
  freezer (Ulick Stafford)
  Replying to HBD (John DeCarlo              x7116          )
  recipe request (Jim Sims)
  forced kettle ventilation (S29033)
  Headspace and carbonation again (Ed Hitchcock)
  Starting lagers warm (Jim Dipalma)
  Re: How to Convert a Sanke Keg (Dion Hollenbeck)
  SS welding hint (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Mash mixing (Allen Ford)
  Evaporation adjustments (Domenick Venezia)
  Mial order list? (Lee Bollard)
  Help me make a strawberry beer (RAYMUN)
  Questions on sweeter and maltier beer (RAYMUN)
  Extraction Rates (Randy M. Davis)
  Re: Sludge in my wort (David Van Iderstine)
  Jello in Beer ("Mary Hemmings")
  Sterile ice ("Bill Knecht")
  Re: Evaporation adjustments/Dairy Malt (Jeff Benjamin)
  Calling 800 numbers. (Pierre Jelenc)
  head space/overcarbonation/stove top cleaning (Mark Gugel)
  More on Dextrin malt (Jim Busch)
  Care and feeding of a hydrometer ("Harrington, Stephen J")
  Cleaning stoves ("DEV::SJK")
  Re: A-B ads (Tom Wurtz)
  Re: A-B ads (Tom Wurtz)
  Blueberry syrup ("pratte")


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 06 Jul 1994 15:46:26 GMT
From: rmoucka at OMN.COM (RONALD MOUCKA)
Subject: Used Kegs


Brew Buds,

A local micro brewer has several hundred used kegs for sale.  They are a
bit beat up, but are selling for $20-40  depending on condition.  The
have Sanke valves but are the type of keg that that require a bung in
the side (Golden Gate?).  Can these be converted into useful boilers or
used as they are by homebrewers?

TIA

Ron Moucka

rmoucka at omn.com

           This message created on OMN BBS (303) 667-1149 data

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 06:36:44 -0500 (EST)
From: ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: freezer

lperry at adoc.xerox.com asks about freezers
I, and I suspect many others, use a freezer as a lger with no problems.
The temperature I maintain it at is usually 40F, which is closer to the
normal operating temperature of 0F than 70F would be.  However I suspect
you would have no problems because freezers must operate at 70F and 
higher (when they are intially truned on) or must be able to sit idle 
that warm.  As for cycling, don't worry.  A freezer does very little 
work to maintain higher temperatures.  The biggest problem is keeping
out the puddle of condensation and and molds.  Wipe the inside time 
quite often with a strong bleach solution to keep the air an surfaces
clean.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 08:29:34 EST
From: John DeCarlo x7116 <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Replying to HBD

In the spirit of RAYMUN at delphi.com, I am replying to the Digest <grin>

If I think my answer is valuable to many, or unique in some way, or even
part of a controversial discussion like this one, I am quite likely to 
post it to the Digest.  If I expect my answer is tentative or similar to
those of others, I will reply directly to the poster.

Most of the readers here can probably contribute something to each 
question asked--would you want them *all* to post to the Digest?

OTOH, you have people who answer every question posted and always post 
their answers to the Digest, even when their answers are of dubious 
quality.

If I research the back Digests and only find questions, I e-mail the 
questioner(s) and ask for a summary of the information they got.  This 
is only fair.

The only way to get out of this later duty is to post a summary of 
responses you get--even if it is "the two answers in the Digest cover 
all the points I got in private mail".

So, IMHO, don't post to the Digest unless you think:
  1) Your answer is an excellent presentation of the information
  2) You have some expert information worth posting
  3) You want to amplify or stimulate discussion
  4) You are summarizing information received in response to a question.
  5) You have a question you can't answer by searching past Digests or
     whatever--please include all the information you have found, so
     people don't repeat info you already have.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 08:52:26 EDT
From: sims at scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: recipe request

Does anyone have a recipe Sheaf Stout?

tia,
jim

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Date: 07 Jul 1994 09:19:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: forced kettle ventilation

I mash and boil on top on my kitchen stove and use the vent hood during 2
different phases of beer making.  I turn the fan on full blast when I am
dumping the crushed grain into the water (temp is 160-170 F).  The exhaust fan
sucks out the fog of grain dust that usually results when dumping the grain
into my brewpot.  The second time I use the fan is when I am boiling the wort. 
Sometimes I do not use the fan when brewing during the winter months since I
would rather have the heat and steam in the house (we have a woodstove and it
gets pretty dry in the house-I brew and humidify at the same time).  During the
summer, the exhaust fan is a must (especially during this heat wave).  
I have not noticed any effect whatsoever from having the exhaust fan going
during the entire boil.  When I first used the fan I was wondering if the boil
would take longer since I was inadvertantly removing heat with the fan.  I
don't believe the fan made any difference in that respect.  My beer comes out
delicious just the same. If there is any effect maybe the beer is actually
better.  I have not confirmed this though.

Lance Stronk, Sikorsky Aircraft
Stratford, CT.
"...there we were.  It was 2 against 1000...and we killed them both"

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Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 10:43:50 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Headspace and carbonation again

Okay, how about this scenario:
CO2 pressure has no direct effect on the production of CO2 by yeast 
metabolism, since the metabolic pathway is far to complex to be screwed up 
by a simple thing like high pressure of end product.  Rather, pressure in 
general has an effect on the yeast.  That is, yeast may be slightly more 
compressable than water, and as such as the pressure increases, the yeast 
drop out of suspension and settle on the bottom.  On the bottom of the 
bottle they do a poor job of fermenting the remaining sugars, and go 
dormant.  Now, with a smaller headspace the higher pressure is reached 
sooner.  With a greater headspace, the yeast can chug along happily for 
much longer before the pressure forces them out of suspension, thus higher 
levels of carbonation.

*--Ed Hitchcock---ech at ac.dal.ca----*  Mares eat oats and does eat oats
*--Anat.&Neurobio.---Dalhousie-U.--*     and little lambs eat ivy.
*--Halifax--NS--Can----------------*  A kid'll eat ivy too, wouldn't you?

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 09:44:48 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Starting lagers warm


    Hi All,

    Bob Stovall writes:

>begin primary ferment using lager
>yeast in "normal, i.e., room temperatures- about 75 F,

    This is the second such post to appear in the digest in recent days
regarding starting lager fermentations at room temperature, which compels
me to respond: *DON'T* do this.
    Many strains of lager yeast, when pitched into wort that is over 50F,
will produce elevated levels of diacetyl, more than they can reduce at the
end of fermentation. Conducting a lager fermentation at temperatures over 50F
will increase ester production. Sources: Miller's "Continental Pilsner", and
Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer".
    Lagers are supposed to ferment "clean" and "neutral", free of the flavor
components that yeast contributes when fermented at warm temperatures,
allowing the contributions from hops and malts to come through. The same
flavor components, diacetyl, esters, etc., that make for wonderfully complex
ales are considered defects in lagers. Starting a lager fermentation warm
defeats the whole purpose.

    Spencer Thomas posted some excellent advice in HBD 1466 on starting a
lager. To summarize, grow a very large starter, between 1/2 and 1 gallon,
allow it to ferment out completely. Pour off most of the liquid, leaving
just enough to form a slurry with the yeast sediment, and pitch that into
*chilled* (45F-50F), well-aerated wort. I would add that it's best to
ferment the starter at 50F also, to avoid shocking the yeast with sudden
temperature change.
    I use this procedure with good results, I get starts in ~18 hours at
48F. It does require a bit of extra planning and care, but the additional
labor is minimal, and the results are well worth it, IMHO.

   Cheers,
     Jim

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:07:10 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: How to Convert a Sanke Keg

>>>>> "Jack" == Jack Skeels <0004310587 at mcimail.com> writes:

Jack> A couple of people have asked direction for converting a Sanke
Jack> Keg, and while the way we did it certainly isn't the only way,
Jack> IT WORKED PRETTY DARN WELL.  The only other one that I
Jack> considered seriously was using a Plasma torch.

As in any other instance of heating stainless steel, be aware that if
not cooled *immediately*, migration of the trace elements due to heat
will severely embrittle SS.  While a plasma torch will cut it, you
still have to stop frequently to cool down the cuts if you don't want
your keg to shatter when you drop it!

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:13:55 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: SS welding hint

Previously when welding SS fitting in kegs, I have encountered "wooly
black caterpillars" on the backside of the welds.  I just found out
that if the interior of the keg is flooded with CO2, this will not
happen. 


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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:38:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Allen Ford <allen at darwin.sfbr.org>
Subject: Mash mixing


Both Don Put and Jack Schmidling have again brought up the subject of 
continuous mixing of their mashes.  I asked previously concerning 
advantages/disadvantages of such mixing and received good, thorough 
theoretical information from them and others.  I would now request that 
Don, Jack, and any others who follow the mixing procedure relate their 
real-world experiences with it.  Specifically, what differences, 
qualitative and quantitative, do you see between mixing the mash and not 
mixing, both during the brewing process and in the finished beer?
  

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  Allen L. Ford  <allen at darwin.sfbr.org>  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-= Southwest Foundation for Biomedical Research  San Antonio, Texas =-=-=



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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Evaporation adjustments

- ------------------------------
> HBD #1469: From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terri Terfinko)
>
>     When I brew a 5 gallon batch I try to start my boil with 6.5
>gallons to allow for the evaporation during boil.  When I calculate
>recipes and extraction points for all grain batches, should I use
>the  6.5 or 5 gallon number?  I just brewed a pale ale with 9
>pounds of grain and a SG of 1.050  After the boil, I had 5 gallons
>of wort.  I calculated my extraction points at  either 50/9/5 =27
>points or 50/9/6.5 = 36 points.  Any advice on these calculations
>would be appreciated.

In the spirit of public disclosure over private email...

You could calculate the extraction efficiency at either point provided
your numbers are consistent, that is the SG is of the volume in question. 
The SG of the 5 gals of wort was 1.050 for a 27.8 pt extraction but the SG
of the 6.5 gals was lower, probably around 1.038 (27.4 pts).  So, using
your notation:  50/9/5 = 38/9/6.5 = 27+. 

I generally take a number of volume and SG readings during brewing,
just after the sparge, just after the boil, after the primary, and
after the secondary.  This gives me a good idea of what is going on
with my process at each step and overall.  

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com








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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 8:06:59 PDT
From: Lee Bollard <bollard at spk.hp.com>
Subject: Mial order list?

Where is the list of mail-order homebrew vendors?  

I heard it was in the OLD cats_meow (in the appendix), but only the NEW
cats_meow is on the ftp server (sierra.stanford.edu).

Is there a mail-order vendor list in another file?

Anyone care to supply me with the best homebrew mail-order
suppliers names and phone numbers?

TIA

Regards,

Lee Bollard
bollard at spk.hp.com


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Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: RAYMUN at delphi.com
Subject: Help me make a strawberry beer



I am looking at brewing a strawberry beer, and could any of you throw in
your 2 cents?
 
Any one got any strawberry recipes? Beer not mead!
 
Poundage wise, what would be a good amount of strawberries to use
to get the taste of strawberries to be noticed, but
not overpowering?
 
Are there any drawbacks to using strawberries?  I have use raspberries with
no problems.
 
Raymun at delphi.com  

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Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 11:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: RAYMUN at delphi.com
Subject: Questions on sweeter and maltier beer


Can someone correct me if I am misunderstanding this theroy.
 
If I want to make a beer sweeter, do I use grains that have NO emzymes?
Or a grain that has no fermentable sugars?
 
And on the same point, if I want a beer that has more of a MALT taste
would I again use a grain that is low or have no emzymes or one that
has a lot?
 
Raymun at delphi.com
 
P.S. If this message is double spaced, forgive me. I have no clue why, because
as I am typing this I'm typing in single space.         

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 9:17:17 MDT
From: Randy M. Davis <rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com>
Subject: Extraction Rates

Terri Terfinko writes:
>When I brew a 5 gallon batch I try to start my boil with 6.5 
>gallons to allow for the evaporation during boil.  When I calculate 
>recipes and extraction points for all grain batches, should I use 
>the  6.5 or 5 gallon number?  I just brewed a pale ale with 9 
>pounds of grain and a SG of 1.050  After the boil, I had 5 gallons 
>of wort.  I calculated my extraction points at  either 50/9/5 =27 
>points or 50/9/6.5 = 36 points.

In the above example, the only calculation of any use is the one using the 
values of 50, 9 and 5. You only measured the gravity after the boil so the 
calculation using 6.5 gallons is incorrect. If you had measured the gravity
prior to the boil, you would have measured a value lower that 1.050 and the
resulting rate of extraction would have been different. I would guess that the 
result would be very close to 27 points. 
My personal feeling is that the amount of material in the final volume at
pitching time is what counts. Using that value I can compare results between
batches where I have changed the batch size, used more or less sparge water,
changed the sparge water temperature etc. If you prefer to calculate extraction
prior to boiling you will have to measure the gravity in the initial volume
to get meaningful results.
- --

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Randy M. Davis: Mobil Oil Canada            Calgary, Alberta  Canada    |
|                 rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com                                 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:18:13 EDT
From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.uu.net (David Van Iderstine)
Subject: Re: Sludge in my wort

Jeff Donnelly sez:

>OK so it's not sludge but it looks like it.  Here's my problem:
>After I'm done boiling my extract based wort for about an hour, I filter
>the wort into the fermenter.  Since I started using my new funnel with the
>built in filter, it clogs 9 or 10 times per 5 gallon batch.  The filter
>is fairly small and the "clog" is a very fine impenetrable goop.  I have
>to stop pooring, rinse the filter and continue.  Besides the annoyance
>of this process I don't like chancing contamination so often.
>Other information:
>	I use both bittering and hop pellots, the latter added in the
>	 last 5 minutes of boil.
>	I cool the wort before filtering
>	I add grains(in bag) until just before the water boils
>
>What is this stuff I'm filtering out and is it something I want to
>    keep or get rid of?
>Do I need a no filter, a different filter, or a prefilter?
>Any other clues or suggestions.

I didn't know what it was either until I got to the line describing hop
_pellets_. Convenient as they are, these little suckers are HELL to put
through a filter! I have the same funnel w/strainer and the same exact
problem. Here's my $0.02 in the form of 3 alternate suggestions:

1). sterilize your hands (or some other agitator) and, when the
clogging begins, keep moving around the layer of crud on the filter
(this works, but not well).  
2). just pour the whole mess into the primary. The ground-up
hops can be left in the primary (mostly) when you rack to the
secondary. This does affect the flavor however, like dry-hopping
would. At the risk of hanging massive FlameBait (tm) out, my experience
in letting the plugs into the primary produced a nice dry-hopped flavor
to the beer. The hangup is you're also letting your bittering hops into
the primary, and the hops flavor profile must be adjusted since you're
leaving the hops in contact with the wort for so long. My guess is the
boiled bittering hops will do little to the flavor from being left in
the primary; the aromatic hops will do LOTS to the flaovr; start small
here and build up (like a half ounce).
3). This is my preferred solution. Forget those (sadly convenient) pellets
and use whole hop flowers instead. These babies give me little trouble
in the funnel strainer that a long spoon can't solve. And with whole hop
flowers, it's very easy to tell if they're fresh or not-if the "powder" in
the bag is yellow, they're fine; if it's orange, they're compost! (Well,
maybe that's extreme, but they're definitely on their way out.)

For Ben Piela:

For your hop crud, either switch to whole hops, or when bottling rack out
of the secondary to another vessel before bottling (you should always do
this anyway, to get the beer away from the yeast sediment). On your second
question-you can cut back to as little as 1/2 cup of corn sugar and get
good results, but I'm a little suprised at your results. I've used 3/4 cup
when I was in a hurry for the "final product" without having bottle
bombs. Was that amount added to 5 gallons, or to some smaller amount?

Dave Van Iderstine
davevi at pharlap.com

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 9:24:59 MDT
From: "Mary Hemmings" <mhemming at acs.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Jello in Beer

I'm rather new to brewing (but getting better).
The fellow at my supply shop told me that Jello has been known to
be used for "Kriek" style beers - he couldn't tell me more, as
he'd never tried it himself.
But he did say it was used at the fining stage (because of the
gelatine).

Has anyone tried this?.... I'm making plans for Holiday batches &
would like a little guidance.

By the way, I noticed Karl Lutzen's published beer-making book at
the books store two-weeks ago. It's an updated, expanded version
of Cat's Meow - really nice! Plan to get my own copy.


- -- 
Mary Hemmings
Technical Services Librarian
Law Library
University of Calgary

Voice: (403) 220-6577
Fax:   (403) 282-3000
e-mail: mhemming at acs.ucalgary.ca
Post-Haste: 2500 University Drive N.W.
            Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:33:58 CDT
From: "Bill Knecht" <knecht at mind.psych.umn.edu>
Subject: Sterile ice

	In keeping with the concept of posting summary results of questions,
here's a summary of the replies to my question about using sterile ice to
cool wort.
	Tupperware or Rubbermaid containers are reported to be resistent
to boiling water, as are some of the plastic souvenir drink glasses from
fast food restaurants (thanks Bob Fawcett & John DeCarlo).
	There was some concern that I was maybe over-complexifying things,
and that simply immersing the wort pot in lots of cool water would be safer
and easier (thanks Michael Lobo).
	There was also concern that ice might contain oxygen, and so create
a Hot Side Aeration problem (thanks Mark Childers).
	This last observation got me thinking.  If the water were boiled,
would most of the oxygen go out of it?  Then if a container were completely
filled and then sealed with a lid, would it be possible to make sterile ice
with very little O2 in it?
	Comments anyone?  Please also let me know if you agree with Michael
that sterile ice might be overkill.
	Somewhere in the back of my mind lurks this notion that there ought
to be an easy way to balance easy & rapidity of cooling with maintenance of
sanitization, without the need for expensive, bulky equipment.  I can taste
what I believe to be an ever-so-slight "cardboard taste" in my extract beer,
and my latest Quest is to eliminate this without increasing my risk of
infection.

Bill Knecht
University of Minnesota

 ....................................................................
 .^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
 .           William Knecht  (knecht at mind.psych.umn.edu)            .
 .       ...and now for your randomly-selected quotation...         .
 ....................................................................

     "When you consider what a chance women have to poison their hus-
      bands, it's a wonder there isn't more of it done."
           Kin Hubbard

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:07:45 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Evaporation adjustments/Dairy Malt

Terry Terfinko writes:
> When I brew a 5 gallon batch I try to start my boil with 6.5
> gallons to allow for the evaporation during boil.  When I calculate
> recipes and extraction points for all grain batches, should I use
> the  6.5 or 5 gallon number?  I just brewed a pale ale with 9
> pounds of grain and a SG of 1.050.   After the boil, I had 5 gallons
> of wort.  I calculated my extraction points at  either 50/9/5 =27
> points or 50/9/6.5 = 36 points.

The volume of wort and the gravity need to be measured at the same time.
If you do so, the extraction rate should read about the same either
before or after the boil (not exactly the same, but close enough for
most of us).  I assume that the 1.050 gravity was measure after the
boil, so your extraction was 27 pt/lb/gal.  36 is getting close to the
theoretical limit for some malts, and we'd all be clamoring for your
procedure :-).

I usually measure the volume and gravity *before* the boil.  That way I
know how much to let evaporate to reach my target gravity.  Let's say I
get 6 gal of sweet wort at 1.040.  This gives me 240 total "gravity
points".  If my target gravity is 50 (i.e.  1.050), then my final volume
should be 240/50, or 4.8 gals.  Alternately, if I want 5 gals for my
keg, my final gravity will be 240/5 = 48, or 1.048.

Lee Bertagnolli asks:
> What is the difference between the malt extract powder we use in our hobby
> and the "malt" powder that Dairy Queen and other ice cream novelty vendors
> put into their "malts?"

The "malt" powder probably contains sugar, stabilizers, milk solids, and
other things we don't want in our beer.  They sell similar stuff in the
grocery store right next to the Nestle Quik mix; it's labeled "Instant
Malted Milk" or some such.  A large component is dried malt extract, but
there are all sorts of other things in there to sweeten it, keep it from
clumping, etc.  Take a look at the ingredient label next time you're in
the store.  That aside, it's probably even more expensive by weight than
brewer's dry malt extract.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: 05 Jul 1994 08:09:01 GMT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Calling 800 numbers.



In Homebrew Digest #1469, Simon_W._Bedwell at metro.mactel.org (Simon 
W. Bedwell) asks


<< I have a problem. I'd like to subscribe to 'Brewing Techniques'
magazine, but I've only got their toll-free 800 number. Why is that a
problem you ask? Well, I live in the UK and we can't call US 800 numbers
from here. >>

Actually you can (although you will have to pay for it). From the UK, or 
any other country that has a "USA direct" dialling scheme, you do as 
follows: Call the US operator on the direct number, and ask to place a 
call to an 800 number.

Caveats: The company you call must be the one that provides the 800
service that you want to call. If you don't know which it is (typically
ATT, MCI, or Sprint), you may have to try all three, and hope that it is
not a tiny local company. 

"USA direct" is the ATT name for the service. Other companies probably 
have other names for it.

The ATT number in the UK is 0800-89-0011. I don't know the others but 
your local telco should be able to give them to you.

Pierre

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 12:26:39 EDT
From: Mark Gugel <mdgugel at mtu.edu>
Subject: head space/overcarbonation/stove top cleaning

Carbonation
Thank you Chris Pittock for giving us CO2 in a nut shell.  Chris is right
on track when he states that a vital piece of the puzzle has been missed.
Adding wort (or corn sugar) to the priming bucket can give virtually 
the same amonut of carbonation to each bottle - and will be much less 
sensitive to whether there is the head space is one inch or two inches.  
A further advantage of this technique is that a larger volume is used, 
thereby allowing for more accurate measurement.  It's easier to measure 
1 1/4 cups +or- 5% to a 5 gallon batch than it is to add 1/2 tsp +or-
5% to each of 40 pint bottles.

I don't waste any of my precious brew, I often have a 1/2 full bottle.  
Aside from differences in the the PFFFFFT factor (noted by Spencor of 
Ann Arbor and JRT) I don`t notice any difference from the 1/2 full 
bottles to the full bottles - and its the beer poured into my glass 
that counts.

Stove top
Because I don`t see my response sent yesterday, I'll try again.
I use aluminum foil (reusable) shiny side up on my kitchen stove.  It
does a wonderful job of reducing the amont of scorching on the stove 
top.  I still need do do some scrubbing, but not nearly as much.

Mark D. Gugel

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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:35:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: More on Dextrin malt

I wrote about my opinions:
 >Dextrin malt is useless, or at least not required

 and Norm wrote:

 Tell that (the dextrin malt comment) to the people who brew the classic
 American pale ale, Sierra Nevada.  A recent trip to the local HB store
 brought the following comment: "the 30L crystal is the same as
 CaraVienne".
 Of course, the dextrin malt was labelled "Dextrin", the carapils was
 labelled
 "Carapils", the munich was labelled "Munich", but the caravienne was
 labelled
 "30L crystal".  Hmmm.


 In my opinion, the use of dextrin malt is not required.  The same
 effects can be done in the mash tun, and with other malts.  While
 Sierra may have there reasons for economy of scale/process, I 
 feel that homebrewers can get better results from other malts and
 mashing programs.  

 If you ever taste a beer high in US dextrin malt and low
 in hopping rates, the cloying sweetness can be overpowering. The
 specs for CaraVienne are usually closer to 22 lovi.  Who makes
 "30L crystal"?

 Good brewing,
 Jim Busch


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Date: 7 Jul 1994 09:53:54 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com>
Subject: Care and feeding of a hydrometer

Hi All!

After a year and a half of extract brewing, I have been inspired by this
noble publication to embark upon all-grain brewing (I am going to start with
a partial mash just to get the technique down).  

Up until now I have not bothered taking specific gravitity readings (hey, if
it tastes good, who cares about the details).  This has worked fine for me. 
However, it seems now that these readings are important for me to know when
to stop sparging and all those other high-tech things I haven't had to worry
about up until now.

I am looking for the collective wisdom of all to aid me in determining when
the important time to take these readings is.  In light of all the recent
comments regarding 'stealth' answers to questions, I will post a summary of
all answers I receive privately.

Regarding heat resistant plastic containers:

I have used this technique with success.  I bought the absolute cheapest
container I could find of the size I wanted and simply pour the boiling water
in it, cover it, let it cool then freeze.  It seems to withstand the heat
with no ill effects.  When I am ready to use it, I float it in the water bath
which I will place my boiling kettle in for about 5 minutes.  This melts the
outside of the cube (with the added feature of chilling the bath) and it very
easily pops out and into the wort.  After 15 minutes I find I am at pitching
temperatures.  I know it isn't as high-tech as the fancy wort chillers, but
hey, I am always looking for the lazy way out.

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Date: 7 Jul 94 13:23:00 CST
From: "DEV::SJK" <SJK%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Cleaning stoves


Richard Childers in #1469 suggests that steel wool is useful for removing
burnt wort from your stovetop and that it will not scratch the enamel if
you're careful.  I can't speak for Richard's stove, but I would caution
against this as I was quite successful at scratching mine with a light
application of an SOS pad (as he recommends).  I'd test first on an
inconspicuous spot.

I've found that oven cleaner applied VERY carefully works well.  I use
newspaper for shields, particularly around my aluminum grill or the gas
lines exposed when my burner shields are removed.

Scott Kaczorowski
sjk%c17fcs.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com



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Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:59:54 MDT
From: twurtz at neocad.com (Tom Wurtz)
Subject: Re: A-B ads


Keith Frank, keithfrank at dow.com writes ....


> Teddy Winstead, winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu asks...

>>Does anyone know if the AHA made a statement to Budweiser in regards
>>to their Bud Light ad?  I realize that there may be some conflict
>>here, since the AHA is part of the Ass. of Brewer's, which undoubtedly
>>includes the evil Bud ones, but does anyone else think that something
>>should be said?  

>I agree that something should be said. For those HBDer's who haven't
>heard the A-B ad in question, allow me to briefly outline it. It basically
>goes as follows:

>1st guy says, "Hey, try this pumpernickel stout. I brewed it myself."
>2nd guy says, "What's that chunk floating in there?"
>1st guy says, "Oh just try it. I saved this last bottle just for you."
>2nd guy says, "Oh that's ok, I'll just have this Bud Light. You drink
>               the stout."
>The commercial leaves you with the impression that both guys want the
>Bud Light. 

> I recently heard this on a Houston radio station. I wrote a letter to
>August Busch III in which I told him that it pleased me that we humble
>homebrewers were perceived as such a threat that A-B felt they had to 
>spend their advertising dollars attacking us. I haven't received a reply
>and really don't look for one.

I wouldn't. I'm going to take a moment to share a theory I have about this
that I've been spouting at parties lately.

Miller and Coors have entered the craft brew arena with Miller's reserve
series and Coors' seasonal brews, Eisebock and now Weizen. They saw the
market for high end beers and went right to it, figuring to compete with
the Sam Adams' of the world.
Bud on the other hand saw it and went the opposite direction. Instead of
competing with the micros and regionals, they're gonna buy em up. Case
in point is the recent 15% ownership and distribution agreement with
Red Hook. If they position themselves as the "brewery that still makes
the standard swill and we're damn proud of it," they don't lose anything
and actually it makes sense to try to make the separation more pronounced.

So the ads are a cheap shot at homebrewers, face it we are easy targets.
Most of us fail to produce excellent beer 100% of the time and we are
proud of our creations, sometimes blinding us to the real quality level
of our beers.*** The shot isn't really at us, it's really at the micro's.
Bud wants to try to make Joe lunchbox smuggly happy that
he isn't jumping on the craft brew bandwagon, because that means he
continues to buy Bud. Bud knows that folks like us aren't going to be
buying a sixer of Budmilloors, why even try to attract us. The extra
added bonus is that while Miller and Coors are changing their processes
and marketing strategies to fight an uphill battle to try to convince us
that they can brew quality beer, Bud doesn't have to do anything but sit
back and watch the money roll in from Red Hook, etc...

Summary, the ads suck, but in a free-market capitalist society they make
perfect sense.

*** Okay so most of us here on the digest probably are close to 100% and
are pretty non-biased, but I've known plenty of folks who brew/have brewed
with much lower success and lower objectivity.

Tom
wurtz at neocad.com

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Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:59:54 MDT
From: twurtz at neocad.com (Tom Wurtz)
Subject: Re: A-B ads


Keith Frank, keithfrank at dow.com writes ....


> Teddy Winstead, winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu asks...

>>Does anyone know if the AHA made a statement to Budweiser in regards
>>to their Bud Light ad?  I realize that there may be some conflict
>>here, since the AHA is part of the Ass. of Brewer's, which undoubtedly
>>includes the evil Bud ones, but does anyone else think that something
>>should be said?  

>I agree that something should be said. For those HBDer's who haven't
>heard the A-B ad in question, allow me to briefly outline it. It basically
>goes as follows:

>1st guy says, "Hey, try this pumpernickel stout. I brewed it myself."
>2nd guy says, "What's that chunk floating in there?"
>1st guy says, "Oh just try it. I saved this last bottle just for you."
>2nd guy says, "Oh that's ok, I'll just have this Bud Light. You drink
>               the stout."
>The commercial leaves you with the impression that both guys want the
>Bud Light. 

> I recently heard this on a Houston radio station. I wrote a letter to
>August Busch III in which I told him that it pleased me that we humble
>homebrewers were perceived as such a threat that A-B felt they had to 
>spend their advertising dollars attacking us. I haven't received a reply
>and really don't look for one.

I wouldn't. I'm going to take a moment to share a theory I have about this
that I've been spouting at parties lately.

Miller and Coors have entered the craft brew arena with Miller's reserve
series and Coors' seasonal brews, Eisebock and now Weizen. They saw the
market for high end beers and went right to it, figuring to compete with
the Sam Adams' of the world.
Bud on the other hand saw it and went the opposite direction. Instead of
competing with the micros and regionals, they're gonna buy em up. Case
in point is the recent 15% ownership and distribution agreement with
Red Hook. If they position themselves as the "brewery that still makes
the standard swill and we're damn proud of it," they don't lose anything
and actually it makes sense to try to make the separation more pronounced.

So the ads are a cheap shot at homebrewers, face it we are easy targets.
Most of us fail to produce excellent beer 100% of the time and we are
proud of our creations, sometimes blinding us to the real quality level
of our beers.*** The shot isn't really at us, it's really at the micro's.
Bud wants to try to make Joe lunchbox smuggly happy that
he isn't jumping on the craft brew bandwagon, because that means he
continues to buy Bud. Bud knows that folks like us aren't going to be
buying a sixer of Budmilloors, why even try to attract us. The extra
added bonus is that while Miller and Coors are changing their processes
and marketing strategies to fight an uphill battle to try to convince us
that they can brew quality beer, Bud doesn't have to do anything but sit
back and watch the money roll in from Red Hook, etc...

Summary, the ads suck, but in a free-market capitalist society they make
perfect sense.

*** Okay so most of us here on the digest probably are close to 100% and
are pretty non-biased, but I've known plenty of folks who brew/have brewed
with much lower success and lower objectivity.

Tom
wurtz at neocad.com

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Date:          Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:13:31 EST
From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Blueberry syrup

In Tuesday's HBD (sorry it took so long, but I've been vacuuming the 
water from the floods out of my basement), Kirk Harralson brings up 
the question of using blueberry syrup in his beer.  I've used similar 
syrups several times, with excellent results.  The syrups in question 
have no artificial ingredients, just blueberry juice and maybe some 
corn syrup (often get them at the State Farmer's Market).  I can't 
tell the difference between the beers made with syrup and those made 
with berries.  In fact, I recently bottled a raspberry wheat beer made 
with only 8 oz. of syrup that has a very strong raspberry flavor.  
As long as there are no other additives that sound nasty, I would say 
"Go for it".

John Pratte

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1470, 07/08/94