FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  THREAD program to search digests (Kaltenbach)
  ale yeasts and Australian brewers (ANDY WALSH)
  Thin mash (BILL_MARKS)
  O'Neil's Beer Tree (Paul Jeffrey)
  The Great British Beer Festival (WHCMT)
  The Tide IS Turning? (Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01)
  Japanese Beetles and Hops (John DeCarlo              x7116          )
  A couple of questions about sterility (Thomas Junier)
  long mash (Steve Robinson)
  Contaminated brew - possible use of (S29033)
  counterflow chiller questions (Jim Sims)
  Jim Koch/Sam Adams ("Craig Amundsen")
  guests at club meetings (Btalk)
  Gott Coolers for Mashing. (Greg_Habel)
  Wyeast 3068 (Ed Hitchcock)
  Phenolic aroma (Chuck Wettergreen)
  ml to US cup conversion (DGERTH)
  Jap sb Japanese (Tim Anderson)
  Wyeast #1338 (Domenick Venezia)
  New Papazian! and other matters. (Ash Baker)
  Just a Reminder (Steve Peters)
  Re: Pumpernickel Stout Recipe (Mark A. Stevens)
  Honey (Jack Schmidling)
  Kriek kit (Sean MacLennan)
  True Lambics, 20 L. kegs in Ottawa (Aaron Shaw)
  Re: Tied House Peach Wheat clone? (Mark A. Stevens)
  Wort Chillers (Terry Terfinko)
  Sam Adams ("Dave Suurballe")
  BrewfermKriek/extract->grain/siphoning/cloudyBarleywine/Lactose/Koch/mash&lauterTimes (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  powdered beer?? (John Pearson)
  Malt Modification (George J Fix)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 23:15:59 EDT
From: Kaltenbach at aol.com
Subject: THREAD program to search digests


In HBD #1479, Chris Kinney writes:

> 
> I mailed a while back, but didn't get any response, so I hope this time 
> somebody can help me!!!
> 
> I have all the back issues of HBD on my hard drive and am trying to use
> the program thread21 to search for a particular pattern and then output
> to a file the issues that deal with that subject.
> 
> All I can get it to do is to search the first file in a directory, and the
> search comes up empty no matter what!
> 

It has been brought to my attention that anyone experiencing problems with 
the THREAD program I wrote may not know my current address.  My old mail 
node died a while ago and I had to switch to America OnLine for mail 
service.

For those of you unfamiliar with THREAD, it is a program for MS-DOS 
computers that searches back issues of the Homebrew Digest using multiple 
search terms.  For example, if you wanted to see what others had written 
about growing hops, you might want all messages containing both "GROW" and 
"HOPS".  The THREAD program (and documentation) are available from the 
archives at sierra.stanford.edu (see instructions in the digest header 
above).  The program is public domain (i.e., free).  There is also an 
older version of THREAD that was translated into C for use on other (i.e., 
unix) computers.

If you have questions or comments concerning THREAD, please feel free to 
contact me at the address below.  Thanks.  

Tom Kaltenbach
kaltenbach at aol.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 16:29:00 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: ale yeasts and Australian brewers

Ale yeasts:
         I am brewing a 10 gallon batch on the weekend of about a 1055
pale ale. I want to split this into two 5 gallon ferments, one using ESB
and the other Chico yeasts. Unfortunately, I only have 1 heater and it 
is winter here (temps 42-50 at night, 60F by day). Which one is better
at low temps? Which one gets the heater?

Australian brewers
       Our club in Sydney is looking at setting up a judge certification
program. I have been in touch with officials of the BJCP and we plan
on basing it loosely upon the American system. If any Australian brewers
who belong to clubs are interested in participating to set up such
a system read this post, please email me. If you don't read this
then don't bother.

Andy Walsh (awalsh at ozemail.com.au)






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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 20:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: BILL_MARKS at ids.net
Subject: Thin mash

I am a recent convert to all grain.  During a two step infusion I was
distracted while adding the additional 170 F water to raise the
temperature from the protein rest to my mashing temperature.  As a result
I added _way_to_much water and ended up with a thin mash using about 2.5
quarts of water per pound instead of 1.25 quarts per pound.  Fortunately,
the same distraction prevented me from having the water at the right
temperature and as dumb luck would have it, I ended up right on the mark
at 152 F. Since I used so much water during the mash, my sparge was
considerably less than usual but the final runnings were 1.010.  When I
calculated my extraction rate I got 30 pts/lb/gal compared to my usual 24
26 pts.  Why shouldn't use this procedure everytime?  What's wrong with a
thin mash?
TIA
Bill Marks

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 11:13:31 +0300 (WET)
From: Paul Jeffrey <mspaulj at olive.mscc.huji.ac.il>
Subject: O'Neil's Beer Tree


Its summer time and yet again I am toying with the idea of going 
all-grain. The only question is.....what system to go for !!

I recently came accross an article in the March / April 1994 edition of 
Brewing Techniques by David O'Neil describing a 'Beer Tree' setup. Has 
anyone on the HBD had experience in building and / or operating this setup 
? What are the system's strengths / weaknesses. In particular, is there 
any reason why the mash / lauter tun can't be another cut open keg rather 
than a picnic cooler?

Any and all comments welcome

All the best

Paul Jeffrey.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:33:59 GMT
From: WHCMT <WHCMT at cardiff.ac.uk>
Subject: The Great British Beer Festival

In HBD #1479 Brian Gowland mentioned in passing CAMRA.
This provides a nice link to CAMRA's Great British Beer Festival
in London from the 2nd August - 6th August.

The Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) aims to maintain consumer rights,
promote quality, choice and value for money. It campaigns for greater
appreciation of traditional beers, ciders and perries as part of 
national hertitage and culture. (Their words not mine)

Many the local members of CAMRA homebrew and I find that CAMRA
meetings are a useful way of gaining knowledge about homebrewing.

So to all out there in the UK and all those further afield the 
Festival is Open 
Tuesday-Thursday evening 5pm - 10.30pm
Wednesday - Friday Lunch 11.30am - 3pm
Friday Evening 5pm - 10.30pm
Saturday 11.30am - 10pm

At the moment it looks as though there will be around 310 real ales
available at the festival, many provided by former homebrewers who
have set up their own micro breweries.

I can't remember the entrance fee but it shouldn't be to expensive.

Also look out for my local festival in Cardiff, Wales in October.

Happy Brewing

Matthew J. Townsend
Institute of Health Care Studies
Cardiff.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 08:23:52 EST
From: Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01 at mail.amsinc.com
Subject: The Tide IS Turning?


Greetings all,
     I would like to share my recent experience in my office where we
periodically have "Keg & Questions" meetings. Prior to the last meeting I
arranged a private tasting, in the office, of three of my home brews, a bitter,
a brown and a stout. Enthusiastic comments abounded plus one request to obtain
a homebrew book and equipment. That was a good start.
     This time around I was allowed to cater the beer for the event that always
featured BudMillCoors in regular and light. So, I brought in a selection of ten
beers, both imported and domestic, including Catamount Wheat, Pete's Wicked,
Pilsner Urquell, Guinness, and as you can see a selection of styles. The
organizer of the event insisted on having a case of Bud cans in the refigerator
as backup (the beer, bottles only, was presented in buckets with ice). Well,
the beer was an overwhelming success, with many imbibers reflecting "I didn't
know there was such good tasting beer around". And what was really satisfying
is that not one Bud was touched!!! Not only have I been asked to supply future
meetings but I have been asked to bring homebrew as well.
     Slowly but surely the tide is turning away from "near" beers to the real
stuff!

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 08:34:33 EST
From: John DeCarlo x7116 <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Japanese Beetles and Hops

OK, so we are getting a little far afield, but so what.

In my neighborhood, everyone gets an application of BT (I don't know the long 
version of this name, sorry).  It is something sprayed on the whole yard and 
it kills the Japanese Beetle grubs.  Needs to be reapplied every few years.

The result is none of these pests in the neighborhood and my hops thank me for
it.  It does require advance planning and it doesn't do much good to just do 
your own yard if your neighbors don't, but for those who are attacked now or 
those who want to grow hops in the future and have these pests, look into it.

Your hops will thank you.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:45:02 +0200
From: Thomas.Junier at igbm.unil.ch (Thomas Junier)
Subject: A couple of questions about sterility


Hi all!


I'm new to homebrewing (started my first batch yesterday), so the thing is
still much of a mystery to me.

The recipe I use (from Dave Line's "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy")
recommends using sodium metabisulfite as a sterilizing agent. I could'nt
get any, so I used bleach water or 70 % alcohol. I thought of alcohol as
the basic sterilizing agent, but since it is never mentioned in hombrewing
books or digests, I wonder if there's not one good reason not to use it.
The main advantage I see in using alcohol is that it quickly evaporates and
leaves no bad  taste. Also, would it be possible to use hydrogen peroxide ?
(this should break down to water and oxygen).

Second thing: the recipe says to boil the wort 35' (I use Malt extract,
Crystal malt and Goldings hops), I figure out the purpose is to kill off
any nasty molds and bacteria. So far, so good. But according to the book,
I'm supposed to add a few oz. of hops just after the boil. Since hops is
definitely not sterile, am I not joyfully contaminating my wort ?

Thanks a lot for all help, and I'm sorry if you already read my stupid
questions a thousand times!



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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 08:43:35 EDT
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: long mash

Bill Joy writes:

>I am a new brewer (#3 in primary) but I made the jump to all grain
>after the first kit (it's my Engineering background I think). A 
>friend that has been brewing for about 5 years suggested a single 
>step infusion mash that takes 10 - 20 hours (he also uses 
>alpha-amylase religiously) He clams to get 90-95% conversions. His 
>explanation is that the mash will pass through all good temperature 
>ranges (starting at 155 deg. and dropping to 120 deg.) during the 
>process, thus giving the benefits of multi stage mash procedures as 
>well as longer exposure to enzymes for starch conversation . Is there 
>any one out there that has the same experience? I have not seen this 
>method in books or in this forum. Is my friend all wet?

Your friend is all wet.  The reason the rests are done in the order of
ascending temperature is that the enzymes that operate at the lower temps
will not survive the higher ones.  By the time the wort gets down to 120F,
there are no enzymes left for protein breakdown.  Also, leaving the sweet
wort exposed to the air for so long seems like an invitation for a
lactobaccilus infection.

>I used liquid yeast (Wyeast London Ale ) in my brown ale recipe this 
>weekend and had a near explosive experience. I started the package 
>about 10am on Saturday (inside room temp about 72 - 75 deg.) and 
>planned on doing the long mash over night. At about 2pm the Wyeast 
>was off and running and I started thinking about mashing. By 6pm the 
>package was inflated completely but not tight and I decided to 
>proceed with the sparge and boil. I pitched the Wyeast at 1:30am 
>Sunday morning ( the bag was tight and vented with good force when I 
>cut the top off) but all seems to be well in the ale world now. Is 
>there any thing I could do to anticipate the readiness of my Wyeast 
>and control the run away scenario that I just experienced?? Will 
>cooling the package adversely effect the yeasties by putting them to 
>sleep or killing them??

I usually pitch Wyeast packs when they are in the "tight" condition.
It's only CO2, nothing to worry about really.  It's usually a good
idea to make a yeast starter, however, as the Wyeast packs don't allow
pitching a sufficient number of yeasties into 5 gallons.  If you make
up the sterile wort for the starters ahead of time and can it in Mason
jars, you can pitch the starter at whatever state of inflation you're
comfortable with.

 -Steve Robinson

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Date: 20 Jul 1994 09:06:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: Contaminated brew - possible use of

I am not certain about this and perhaps someone out there can clarify.  One
thing that can be done with contaminated beer is to distill it.  I realize that
this is the HBD and not the HDD (home distillers digest) but hear this.  I have
heard that it is possible to distill a liquid for the alcohol for use as FUEL. 
I must point out though that it is ILLEGAL TO DISTILL ANYTHING THAT WILL
PRODUCE ALCOHOL FOR PRIVATE CONSUMPTION OR SALE.  Now granted that the %
alcohol by volume in beer is quite low and it would take more energy to extract
the alcohol (by traditional distillation methods that is) than it is worth.
However, if it is LEGAL to distill for fuel (automobile, lamps, etc) then this
is an alternative to dumping the contaminated 'stuff' down the drain.  

I am sure this topic or my possible 'misinterpretation' of distillation for
fuel will get some flames.  What the heck -- this is the HBD.  We are required
to flame each other from time to time - it builds character.


Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford, CT.


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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 09:54:06 EDT
From: sims at scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: counterflow chiller questions

 Got the urge to do some hardware hacking.....

 I've seen a coupla postings over the past year or so about
 counterflow chillers. One that seemed easy mentioned using 3/8"
 copper tubing inside 5/8" copper tubing, with "T"s on each end,
 coupled to garden-hose fittings. I went by the hardware store and
 grabbed ~20 feet of each tubing, 2 "T"s and the hose fittings.

 (1) I assume that you either compression-fit or solder the 3/8 tubing
 at the ends of the "T" to make a wort-tight joint? In the cheesy
 graphic below, the = is the 5/8" tubing, the --- is the 3/8" tubing,
 (and the T unfortunately), the Y marks where a normal compression
 fitting joins the T to the 5/8 tube, the X is the joint I'm uncertain
 about, since the 3/8" tubing is inside the T at that point...

                                                   | |
5/8" -->     ==================================Y---| |--- X
3/8" -->   -------------------------------------------------
3/8" -->   -------------------------------------------------
5/8" -->     ==================================Y--------- X

                                                    T fitting (above)

 (2) One of the posters mentioned that s/he sanitized their CF chiller
 by sticking it in the oven. Since this is 20' of tubing, does this
 men you coil it just like an immersion chiller? do you first insert
 the 3/8" tubing and the coil the outer tube, I assume? Otehr ideas
 for sanitizing this puppy?

 Reply via email, I'll summarize....

 thanks,
jim

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:54:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Craig Amundsen" <amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: Jim Koch/Sam Adams

Hi -

  With all the talk about Jim Koch, I have to add a small history wank. In
the book _Patriots, The Men Who Started The American Revolution_ (or something
like that, I don't have it in front of me) there is a long discussion of
Sam Adams. Sam did not own a brewery. Sam inherited a malting business from
his father and promptly ran it into the ground. For many years before the 
revolution he made his living as the Colony tax collector. He was a soft 
touch on tax day and would let people slide so he kept getting re-elected.
Sorry for wasting bandwidth, but Jim's ads bug me every time I hear, "Sam 
Adams: patriot and brewer".

 - Craig
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Craig Amundsen              | DILBERT - Sometimes I wonder if it's ethical   |
| amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu |           to do these genetic experiments. But |
|                             |           I rationalize it because it will     |
| 250 Biological Sciences     |           improve the quality of life.         |
| 1445 Gortner Avenue         | DOGBERT - What are you making?                 |
| Saint Paul, MN 55108        | DILBERT - Skunkopotamus.                       |
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 10:20:42 EDT
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: guests at club meetings

My club charges $2/guest/meeting. It adds a few meager bucks to the club
coffer, but is small enough that nobody complains. Some guests have become
members, although it seems that most of them are visiting from out of town.
At least they get to brag about all the great beer theytasted for only $2.
Guests also get a newsletter for a month or two.

Bob Talkiewicz<btalk at aol.com>


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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 10:45:38 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Gott Coolers for Mashing.

Message:
A question for all of you who use the Gott coolers for mashing:  What 
size do you use?  They make them in 5, 6.5, 7, and 10 gallon sizes.  
Currently I am using a rectangular 10 gallon cooler but it seems to 
loose alot of heat.  In 30 minutes I drop from 155F to 145F and am 
forced to add more water.  Is this typical for those mashing in a 
cooler?  From what I can tell most of the heat loss is through the 
top of the cooler as it feels warm while the sides are cool.  I'm 
wondering if the Gott coolers are much better at retaining heat?
                                 Greg



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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 11:54:49 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Wyeast 3068

Chris Pittock writes:
>I don't know about other parts, but here in Australia the "latest" WYeast
>strains come in foil packs without the burst-to-activate pouch (ie #3068
>Weinstephan Wheat beer yeast).  The Australian distributor claims they've
>told him that soon that's the way they will all be.  

	I kept reading this too, which is why I was surprised to buy a pack 
of 3068 last tuesday with the starter pouch, and I noted that the label 
under the "advanced strains" stated that all the above yeasts (meaning the 
regular and advanced) contained Xml yeat and Yml starter medium.  So what's 
the deal?  The lable also had two mixed cultures listed at the bottom, a 
mixed ale and mixed lager, anyone know anything about these?
	By the way, this pack of 3068 started faster than any other yeast I 
have ever used.  I popped the inner pack, let it puff (partially inflated 
within 12 hrs, tight ballon in 24), poured into a 700mL starter (~1040, 
powdered malt and honey, with a few grains of yeast nutrient).  The starter 
was blowing out the airlock in 20 hrs, I pitched it into the beer at about 
30 hrs, the airlock in the primary was bubbling slowly within 2 hrs, and 
kraeusen was well under way within 10 hrs.  At that rate it should be in 
the bottle by nightfall... :-)


*-Ed Hitchcock---ech at ac.dal.ca---*  Mares drink Grolsch and does drink 
*-Anat.&Neurobio.---Dalhousie-U.-*  Koelsch and little lambs drink Lambic.
*-Halifax--NS--Can---------------*  Ed'll drink Lambic too, wouldn't you?

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 08:36:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: Phenolic aroma



The blowoff from my high gravity (1.080) batch, fermenting with re-
pitched Wyeast Scottish ale (1068?) initially had bananna aroma, but 
now, three days after pitching, has slight phenolic aroma (smokey-
bandaid, clove). It is fermenting at 70-75 degF.

Is it shot? The smokey is OK, but the bandaid, while slight, puts me 
off.  Is there any chance it will be scrubbed out or is this batch 
destined for the sewer?

Chuck

Chuck.Wettergreen at Aquila.com


 * RM 1.3 00946 * 

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 9:14:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: DGERTH at LIMS1.LANL.GOV
Subject: ml to US cup conversion

Howdy Folks, 

  I'm new to this, both as a brewer & HBD subscriber - but I really like what
I've seen so far. Stephen Hudson in HBD #1480 requested a conversion factor
for ml to US cups. A quick look in my CRC revealed that there are 473.1632 ml
per US pint, so that makes 236.6 ml (rounded) per US cup.
  Stephen also asked about methods for adding the priming liquid to the wort.
You should (IMHO) add the liquid to the bottom of the bucket (or whatever)
and siphon the wort onto it. The natural circulation during the siphoning
process is enough to mix the liquids well without aeration. 
  Last but not least, I've used both DME and corn sugar to prime, and have 
seen many recipies using either method. I've not been able to discern a 
difference (but then, maybe my tastebuds aren't that educated).

Thanks for the help so far - I'm moving to all grain RSN so you'll be hearing
from me!


Dan Gerth Ph.D.  "dgerth at lims1.lanl.gov"
Brewmeister (right), Dr. Dan's Closet Door Brewery
Lost Almost, NM

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 08:14:39 PDT
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: Jap sb Japanese

I've noticed that some posters in the Japanese beetle discussion are
abbreviating Japanese to "Jap".  I'm sure no racial slur is intended,
but please note that there are many who take deep personal offense at
this term, including me.

I feel better now, so I'll go back killing bugs.

tim


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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Wyeast #1338

Does anyone have any experience with Wyeast 1338 - European ale yeast?

The yeast FAQ has a bit on it.  I am using it for an Alt.  I plated it and
it looks very strange.  A population of large colonies and a population of
small colonies.  Defintely different morphologies, so it seems to be a
mixture of at least two strains in pretty close to a 50/50 ratio.  Does
anyone know anything for certain about this yeast?  Thanks.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com






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Date:         Wed, 20 Jul 94 11:43:44 EDT
From: Ash Baker <3AVHB at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>
Subject:      New Papazian! and other matters.

There is a new book by Papazian:  The Home Brewer's Companion.  I just saw it
in my local beer-friendly bookstore last Friday.  It is a much more technical
bit of work that the New Complete Joy -- it assumes that you've already done
all that, stuff, maybe have a few all-grain batches under your belt, and are
now ready to start learning the whys and wherefores of what you've been doing.
Hence long chapters on water chemistry, CO2 solution charts, malt tables,
utilisation formulae, &c, &c.  The foreword, incidentally, is by our auld
chum Dr Lewis.  That in itself is an, ah, interesting read.  And the phrase
"relax dont worry have a homebrew", is mentioned about twice...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And now, in lighter matters...
Rooting around down in my Dad's basement the other day, I came across about a
dozen quart bottles of homebrew.  It must have been made over a decade ago,
from a Boot's "Best Bitter" kit:  hopped extract, and a little sachet of
"genuine brewer's yeast".  It was quite good when it was first concocted -- no
infections or anything -- so the question is, what is it likely to be like
now?  Will the yeast have stayed alive over twelve years?  In a 1040 mix,
would it even make a difference (I imagine the yeast would long ago have run
out of fermentables)?  It was stored in relative cool and complete darkness,
so...  what do y'all think?  I'd be interested to hear your expert opinions
before I submit my tongue to it.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Some time ago in HBD there was a post from a fellow who found an old coffee
percolator, and wanted to mash in it.  But, o! it was aluminium, so that plan
was banjaxed.  Why, exactly?  It sounded perfect -- it would hold a full mash
at an appropriate temperature for a single infusion mash, and there is even a
little spigot at the bottom.  So what's the problem with aluminium?  I thought
the Alzheimer's issue had been largely resolved.  And even so, two hours (max)
in contact, at sub-boiling temperatures shouldn't do much, should it?  Or does
the acidity of the fresh wort have something to do with it?

Ash Baker
ash at io.org -- Whitby, Ontario, Canada
3avhb at qucdn.queensu.ca -- Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:12:43 -0700
From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com>
Subject: Just a Reminder

Oregon Brewer's Festival in Portland, Oregon: the last weekend in July

Come by and drink beer, you know you want to!

- -- 
Steve Peters
stevep at pcx.ncd.com
Sustaining Engineering and Support
Network Computing Devices

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 10:02:07 EDT
From: Mark A. Stevens <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Re: Pumpernickel Stout Recipe


In HBD 1480, Jeff Renner (Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu) posted
a recipe for Pumpernickel Stout.

Nice recipe Jeff, thanks. 

Next time you might think about adding some beef bullion.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 11:45 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Honey

 
 >From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
 
 >Most people that have used honey in the past have, I'm sure, simply
 added a measured amount of honey to the boil.  This takes care of
 wild yeast as well as dilution.  So what's wrong with this approach?
 
 I would suggest that it depends on what you expect to get from the honey.
 
 If you are looking for the taste of honey in your beer, boiling and 
 fermenting it is not very efficient.  I have found it to be a wonderful 
 addition to finished beer, particularly very dark lagers and stouts.  It is a 
 very simple way to make a sweet stout and it will not ferment away at fridge 
 temps so don't over do it.
 
 It takes very little at this point to make a tremendous impact on the beer.  
 It has the perception of increasing the body substantially at first then just 
 gets sweeter as you use more.  I like a cup in a 5 gal keg but you can start 
 with half that and add more to your taste.  Just heat it with some water to 
 at least 170F to Pasturize it before adding to the beer.
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 03:25:43 -0400
From: sam at gobi.toolsmiths.on.ca (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: Kriek kit

I recevied two Brewferm Kriek kits for a birthday. To the two kits I
added 1kg of honey (I was also given the honey. The salesman had
recommended it). I used the yeast supplied with the kits. Nothing else!
I like try a new kit *straight* first.

I did age it for the 6-8 weeks (I ususally age 1-2 weeks ;-) that
Brewferm recommends. I found the beer had a very definate cherry,
slightly sour, flavour. Yum!

This was the first time I used honey and I got very low FG. I have since
used honey in a room-temperature lager and again got a very low FG. The
honey also seems to add very little flavour of its own.

	Sean MacLennan
	sam at toolsmiths.on.ca
	There is no bad beer, only better!

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 13:28:55 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: True Lambics, 20 L. kegs in Ottawa

     Dear Fellow Homebrewers,

     Has anyone ever tried to make a Lambic beer (spontaneously
fermented)? If so, were you successful?
     I know that summer would probally not be a good time to try
this because the yeasts in the air are too wild, but when would
the best time to try be? Fall, Winter? Maybe if I waited for a
day with a good wind from the east I could catch some of those
Brettanomyces Lambicus and Brettanomyces bruxelliensis wild
yeasts from Belgium.
  
     Paul Andrews inquired about 20 Litre kegs in the Ottawa
area. Defalco's (957 A Gladstone Ave.W., ph.#722-9945) sells
new and used kegs. You could always put a $20.00 deposit down
on a soft drink keg and borrow it for a while. 
     Note: I said borrow not keep to all those who are just 
waiting to start up the "who owns the keg?" discussion again.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 09:49:40 EDT
From: Mark A. Stevens <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Re: Tied House Peach Wheat clone?


In HBD 1479, Karl Elvis MacRae (batman at cisco.com) asked for
info about how to go about making a peach wheat beer.

You know, I thought I actually had a recipe for that sitting in the
discard pile from "Homebrew Favorites", but hell if I can find it
now...

In any case, there's an excellent article by Ralph Bucca in the
July/August 1994 issue of BarleyCorn that talks about various aspects
of brewing with fruit. He provides some general info about handling
fruit, when to add, etc., and then provides a couple recipes. One of
these is an extract-based Peach Ale that should be trivial to turn
into a Peach Wheat recipe.

Here's Ralph's original Peach Ale recipe:

5 pounds light dry malt extract
1 ounce Cascade hops
1 ounce Saaz hops
ale yeast
1/2 pound corn sugar for carbonation
4 pounds fresh peaches (pitted and skinned)

Procedure: Boil malt and hops for 1 hour. Add cold water to fermenter
to bring to 5 gallons. Add wort. Pitch ale yeast. On 2nd day of 
fermentation, skin, de-pit, and chop peaches. Add to fermenter.
Three days later, rack to secondary. Bottle 10 days later.

Here's how I would modify it to make a Peach Wheat:

6.6 pounds Northwestern wheat extract syrup
about 5 AAU hops (maybe 1 ounce of Mt. Hood, Hallertau, etc.)
wheat yeast (Wyeast bavarian wheat)
3/4 cup corn sugar (or malt extract) for carbonation
4 pounds fresh peaches (pitted and skinned)

Ralph provided some good tips in his article. 
* Crush the fruit before adding to the beer
* By adding after fermentation has started, the yeast gets
  a chance to take off and start generating alcohol. Should
  prevent infection, etc.
* Lightly hop a fruit beer to avoid masking fruit flavors

If you'd like to read Ralph's article, send me your mailing address
and I'll xerox it and mail it to you.

Cheers!
- ---Mark Stevens
   stevens at stsci.edu



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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 14:24:03 EDT
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terry Terfinko)
Subject: Wort Chillers

     I have been using an immersion wort chiller and plan to change over to
a counter flow style.  Currently I am getting a good cold break with the
immersion chiller.  When I siphon from the brew kettle I leave allot 
of the trub behind.  I assume that with a counter flow chiller, this cold
break takes place during the transfer from kettle to fermenter, thus 
carrying the trub to the fermenter.  Is this a disadvantage of a counter 
flow chiller?  I want to keep my system closed after boil by using the 
counter flow method, but don't want to cause other problems.  Any advice
or experiences would be appreciated.

Terry Terfinko - terfintt at ttown.apci.com  
 




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Date: 20 Jul 1994 11:41:14 -0700
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: Sam Adams

I would just like to amplify two of the items that John Hopp reports
about what people find offensive about Jim Koch.  The other items were
already clear enough.

First, contraray to advertising, the beer is not from a recipe of a
dead relative of Koch.  It also wasn't designed by Koch in his kitchen
as a homebrewer.  It was designed by Joseph Owades, who is a well-known
and highly-respected brewing consultant.  Owades also designed the
original New Amsterdam Amber which was brewed at FX Matt, which I thought
was delicious.  In the late sixties, Owades designed Gablinger, which
was maybe the first low-calorie beer.

Second, contrary to advertising, the beer is not made in a microbrewery
which makes less beer than megabreweries spill.  It is made in two 
megabreweries.  The west coast bottles come from Blitz-Weinhard in 
Portland, and the east coast bottles come from some big brewery in
Pennsylvania.  Check the label.

I think Sam Adams lager is very good, and I never buy it.

I see the brewing industry as a spectrum of companies.  At one end there
are brewing companies which love beer and love making it, and at the
other end are brewing companies which love money and love making it.
When I plunk down six to ten dollars for a six-pack, I like to send
that money to people who love beer like I do.  I think that when I
buy a six-pack from a company like that, those people are pleased
that I BOUGHT THEIR BEER.  I think when I buy a six-pack from the
other end of the spectrum, those people are pleased that I SENT THEM
MY MONEY.  I don't have a problem with companies making money.
I work for a living, too.  I just want my money to go to fellow
afficianados.

It's not that Koch's advertising is any worse than anyone else's.
Most of it is probably lies.  I just know about beer, so I know what
lies Koch is uttering.  If I knew about cars, I'd probably know what
lies the car ads are uttering.

And I don't really miss the pleasure of drinking Sam Adams since there
are so many other good beers out there, from companies closer to my
end of the spectrum.

And that reminds me, have any of you ever seen an Anchor ad?  On radio?
TV?  Print media?

Suurballe




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Date: 20 Jul 94 20:23:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: BrewfermKriek/extract->grain/siphoning/cloudyBarleywine/Lactose/Koch/mash&lauterTimes

Bill writes:
>  1)  I've heard that Kriek is a Belgian (Lambic?) style ale made with wheat.
>      Does the Brewferm kit have any wheat malt in it??

Judging from the taste, I would say yes, but not much.

>  2)  I want to have the equivalent of 10 lbs. of cherries in the recipe, and
>      I read that the Berwferm kit already has approximately 6 lbs. worth of
>      cherry flavoring/extract.  How can that be?  It's only a 3 lb can.  Do
>      they skimp on the malt extract, and should I adjust by adding more malt?

6 lbs... yeah, right.  I brewed a 5gallon batch from two cans of Brewferm
Kriek and the cherry flavor was virtually nil.  It was also only very faintly
reddish.  Also, I did not use any of the corn sugar the kit recommended,
substituted Wyeast #1028 London Ale and did not boil (since the instructions
said not to and because I wanted to minimize loss of cherry aromatics).  I
don't believe they use 6 lbs of cherries -- perhaps the *equivalent* of 6 lbs 
but perhaps they use imitation cherry flavor.  I don't know.  I was very
disappointed in the Brewferm Kriek especially given the $17/can pricetag.

>  3)  Any tips on yeast?  I am entertaining the idea of trying a Lambic
>      culture, but I have never tried one before.

If you are going to go through the trouble of making a pureculture lambik,
I recommend that you not goof it up with that crummy Brewferm kit.  By the
way, for sourness, they add citric acid to the extract -- a big letdown.

********
RAYMUN writes:
>example:
>Syrup Extract = 46/pts/gallon
>Pale Malt = 36/pts/gallon
>(above would be a pound each)
> 
>Of course above assumes 100% extraction of Pale Malt, and 
>extract is always 100% anyways. So for the sake of arguements lets say
>my extraction effecientcy if 75% when mashing.
> 
>forumla= 46 / (.75 x 36) = 1.704 difference between the two
>malts. 
>So if I'm understanding this correctly I would have to increase
>my Pale Malt amounts by 1.704.

RIGHT!

>Is this correct????!!!! Correct me If I'm wrong, Praise me if I'm 
>right! 

Great job!  Good explaination!

>This should also work in converting DME to Grain too, Right?

Yes, but don't forget that most DMEs will give you a lot more points/lb/gal
than syrups.

********
Chuck writes:
>When is the proper time to rack to secondary?

I don't use secondaries except for fruit beers and lagers.  Most ales are
ready to bottle soon enough so you don't have to worry about autolysis.
Autolysis and the fermenation of trub are the concerns, but if you use
a plastic primary, oxidation of alcohols is also a concern.  I use glass
primaries 99% of the time, so it's not usually a factor.

********
>I have a minor problem with siphoning.  When I get my siphon flowing from
>the primary to the secondary, I end up loosing the siphon before I get
>all the wort out of the primary.  I end up leaving about 5-6 inches of wort
>in the primary.

I recomend that you buy a racking "cane."  It's a 30" tube with a cap on the
bottom and a curve on the top.  The cap keeps you from drawing-in yeast and
trub and the curve keeps the hose you attach to it from kinking from its
own weight.

***********
dean writes about his 1.112 OG barleywine, fermented at 75 degrees with
Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast.  All I can say is that I hope you like bananas.
This yeast is notorious for making isoamyl acetate, which smells like
bananas.  The cloudiness may be a wild yeast or may just be the primary
yeasts not flocculating.  High-alcohol ferments have been known to cause
mutations (that's why Sierra Nevada doesn't crop yeast from it's Bigfoot
or Celebration Ale).  Perhaps the mutant yeast has lost it's ability to
flocculate.  Well, all may not be lost.  I recommend that you rack to
a tertiary after a few more weeks, and let it sit there (keep the airlock
filled) for six months or a year.  The long aging times usually associated
with barleywines will help reduce the intense banana aroma and should
eventually let the yeast settle.  If they don't, you could fine them out
with isinglass or gelatin and then pitch a hearty, active kraeusen for
carbonation.

********
Frank writes:
>I think this beer provides me with a perfect opportunity to
>experiment with lactose in order to alter the body post-hoc.
>Having never worked with lactose what can I expect? 
<snip>
>What type of flavor or change does lactose add?  How much should I use in
>5 gallons (I'll probably only add it to 2.5 gallons and bottle/keg
>the other half without lactose to note the differences)?

I used 8 ounces in a 5 gallon batch of sweet stout and it added
a little sweetness.  The flavor is pure sweetness -- no other
flavor was added.  You must be careful about sanitation, however,
since lactose is fermentable by lactic acid bacteria.

*********
There have been a number of querries about why all the Jim Koch bashing.

Well, the half-truth ads are only an irritant to me.  I initially tolerated
them, arguing that he was fighting against A-B, Miller and Coors and that
sort of justified his "agressive" ads.  What put me off about Koch, and
what caused me to start boycotting his beers, was his suing Boston Beer Works
(a tiny little Boston brewpub, just struggling to stay open) on the grounds
of trademark infringement.  He also sued at least one other small brewery on
similar grounds.  Now you know why we write "Sam(tm) Adams(tm) Boston(tm)
Lager(tm)."

This topic comes up often and there is a lot of stuff in the archives about
it, so please let's not let this turn into another debate.

Ken writes:
>Most people seem to mash for about an hour.  However, Dave Mosher's 
>new book recommends mash times on the order of 2 to 2 1/2 hours.  I've done 
>anywhere from 1 to 1 1/2 hours.

It depends on the temperature, the diastatic power of the mash and the amount
of adjucts like unmalted barley or raw wheat you have in the mash.  For a
155F all-malt mash, I would recommend keeping the mash time under 1.5 hours.

>Lautering
>Is slower better? I.e. turn the faucet way down?

Yes, up to a point.  For a 7 gallons of runnings, a 15 minute lauter is
probably too short, but a 2 hour lauter is probably too long.

>Is more water better? I.e. end up with very long boils?

More water will increase your efficiency (more pts/lb/gal), but will
also take longer, Depending on your pH, you may extract more polyphenols
(tannins) from the husks and if that's the case, then you will have to
muck around with acidifying your sparge water.  If you want simple, then
just base your recipe on 25 pts/lb/gal and worry less.

>Should I stir more?  I don't stir much now, as it seems to cause the 
>heat to disappear faster and I'm also concerned about HSA.

No, don't stir during the lauter.  You're right about the HSA and heat,
but also it will unset the grain bed.

>Should I be perfectly satisified with 25 points?

If you are not interested in 30 points and don't mind throwing in a pound or
two more grain, you will have less polyphenols extracted with shorter lauters.
The only thing it will do is mean you will be throwing a little sugar onto
the compost heap, will have to worry less about sparge water acidification
and won't be able to brag to your buddies about your high efficiency.  Tell
them you're "trying to minimize polyphenol and silicate extraction without
adding additional sulfate or organic acids to your sparge water" and that
should shut them up.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:55:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: john at loki.ti.com (John Pearson)
Subject: powdered beer??

This can only loosely be said to be on the topic of homebrew....but I wanted
to see if anyone else had heard this and what they thought.  It sounds
a little hilarious.

I recently saw a clipping of a newspaper article about powdered beer.  A
Czech brewery which went public in 1992 has developed a technique for making
this.  Their target was the newly opened Russian market which is starved for
beer.  One of the goals is to attack the shelf life problem.

The article stated the beer is reconstituted with water and after about 10
days of conditioning you have beer, head and all.

What about this folks?  Comments?

Can it be that the Russians are so starved for beer they'll drink anything?
This from the self same people that gave us Budvar and Pilsner Urquell....

John T. Pearson     pearson at lobby.ti.com

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 16:08:01 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Malt Modification

Continental lager malt is today far more modified than at any point in
the past, yet its degree of modification is still well below what is 
found in malts from the UK and US. I always felt this was mainly because
of tradition, however recent research have brought up entirely new
issues. (Dr. Narziss has written an excellent survey on this subject, an
English translation of which can be found in 1993 Brauwelt). In particular,
it was found for both decoction and multiple temperature infusion mashes
that foam stability decreased with increasing malt modification. More
important is the finding that the definition and intensity of malt flavor
also decreased with increasing modification. Lager beer made from highly
modified malt gave malt flavors which were judged to be "dull", "unfocused",
"lacking in fullness" in comparison with what was obtained with normal
continental lager malts. In fact, Dr. Narziss implicitly implied that the
trend to increasing modification in lager malt should be stopped, and 
perhaps reversed to some extent.

This jives 100% with my own experiences, and may explain why many have 
found that their lagers come out best when imported Pils malts are used.
I personally use highly modified malt for ales (both from domestic 2-row
as well as malt from the UK). The above work suggests that if a multiple
temperature mash is used then the starting point should be no lower than
60C (140F). This is also consistent with what I have been finding with my
own brews, and I would be interested in what others have experienced.

Cheers.

George Fix


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1481, 07/21/94