FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  WYeast packs... (pittock)
  Re: Extract Syrup to All Grain (Tel +44 784 443167)
  20L kegs (PAUL ANDREWS)
  Jap beetles and Sevin (S29033)
  Citrus Taste In Home Brew (Bruce Kiley)
  Professional brewing classes (Bruce Kiley)
  RE: Japanese Beetles (Jim Dipalma)
  Jap Beetles and predators (S29033)
  mashing in the husk (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  SAM ADAMS-was this guy for real?? (john keith hopp)
  Kriek kit (Aaron Shaw)
  Mashing (Jim Busch)
  First time caller:  Long Mash , Wyeast , Wort Cooler??? ("Joy Bill")
  Pumpernickel Stout Recipe (Nancy.Renner)
  Jim Koch (Ulick Stafford)
  Re: Jim Koch Bashing (John DeCarlo              x7116          )
  Re: Jim Koch (Bill Slack)
  Topping off the boil, San Antonio watering holes (Dan Wood)
  Re: Pseudo-Kriek (Mark A. Stevens)
  wort cooling ("Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606")
  rootbeer (Robert T. White)
  ...no subject... (JRT1)
  Batch priming question. (Midas Operator 3)
  Phenols in Wyeast 2007? (David Draper)
  trouble with ale recipe (Melissa Schauder)
  Beer & Sweat - Keg Competition - BJCP Exam (BeerSweat)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 17:07:58 +1000
From: pittock at rsbs8.anu.edu.au
Subject: WYeast packs...

I don't know about other parts, but here in Australia the "latest" WYeast
strains come in foil packs without the burst-to-activate pouch (ie #3068
Weinstephan Wheat beer yeast).  The Australian distributor claims they've
told him that soon that's the way they will all be.  IF this is the case,
what are they trying to achieve?  Following a similar thread on
rec.crafts.brewing, do you think it is better one way or the other?

Given that an "activated" pack is still not really enough to do the job
efficiently on it's own (and yet some people are pitching the activated
pack straight into the wort), is WYeast just forcing people to do starters
for their own good?  OR are they tired of getting returns of accidentally
activated packs?

What's the deal in the USA or elsewhere?  Are the non-activating packs
appearing?

  \\|//  . o         ____________        Chris Pittock 06)2495099
 o-O O-o     O      ( Yeast, hop )        pittock at rsbs0.anu.edu.au
  | U |        ()  ( & charity... )       PO Box 475 Canberra City
  { - }             (____________)        ACT 2601  Australia.
   /|\


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 10:56:56 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Extract Syrup to All Grain


In HBD 1479, RAYMUN at delphi.com writes:
> Can someone give me the formula for converting extract to
> all grain?
> 
     The figure I have is for converting Pale Malt quantity
to extract quantity by multiplying by 0.73 - divide extract
quantity by 0.73 for the reverse effect.
 
Cheers,
 
     Brian
 

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 09:00:31 EDT
From: pandrews at hpb.hwc.ca (PAUL ANDREWS)
Subject: 20L kegs

hi..
I'm looking for a source of 20L kegs for a friend here in Ottawa.  Used
would be nice but he'd buy new if the price is right. Thanks
Paul andrews, HEalth Canada, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

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Date: 19 Jul 1994 09:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: Jap beetles and Sevin

I too have problems with Jap beetles.  Last year the beetles were so bad that
they stripped all the leaves off my cascade plants.  I attempted to kill them
passively with the pheromone (sp?) traps before the plants were stripped but it
was in vain.  I also planted marigolds about 6 feet away from the plants but
that seemed useless -- I guess the marigolds need to be about the same height
as the hops - 10-12 feet.  Anyway, when I saw my hop plants being eaten right
in front of me it made me sick.  I didn't use any poisons on them.  We moved to
a different location and I took my hop roots with me (two years growth was
quite a lot.  The roots were everywhere).  This year they came up and started
climbing and just as they got to the top of the 10 foot poles, the Jap beetles
started munching.  I also planted trees (sweet cherry) and they went to town on
those as well.  I did the pheromone thing, the marigold thing, and they still
chomped.  Then I got mad.  I usually use the Sevin dust on the my eggplant
since that is a preferred bug meal.  I decided to dust the trees and the hops
with the dust because I couldnt take it any longer.  It has been 2 weeks since I
dusted them and the Jap beetles have not been back.  In fact, I don't see any
of them on the trees or the hops.  I don't normally like to use poison for bugs
since it gets rid of the good ones as well but, this time the beetles pushed me
too far.  The cones have just started forming and I do not plan to use the dust
again unless of course the beetles come back.  I think you have to wait several
days after application of Sevin before you harvest.  I would tend to wait
longer since I don't really like Sevin in my beer.  The passive methods are
fine in some cases, but if you almost have to use the chemicals if you are
witnessing the destruction of your plants.  That is my Sevin sense worth.
I do not work for Ortho, nor do I own stock in the company.  

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford, CT. 

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Date: 19 Jul 94 08:43:17 EDT
From: Bruce Kiley <73551.3367 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Citrus Taste In Home Brew

Over the past year every batch of beer I make as a citrus taste to it.  Some
batches are stronger than others.  How or what causes this and how do you remove
it.

Thanks,

Bruce
73551.3367 at compuserve.com


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Date: 19 Jul 94 08:47:14 EDT
From: Bruce Kiley <73551.3367 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Professional brewing classes

Is there any place in the New England (Boston area) that offers professional
brewing classes.  I'm not intersted in the beginners  and the how-to classes.  I
would like someone that offers a certificate type of program.

Thanks in advance,

Bruce
73551.3367 at compuserve.com


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 10:04:07 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Japanese Beetles


    Hi All,

    Ulick Stafford writes:

>Jim ? recommends against the application of Sevin to hops to solve a
>Japanese beetle problem.  I must strongly disagree.

    If you read my post in HBD 1477, you'll see that I did not recommend
against using Sevin to solve a Japanese beetle problem. The original poster
questioned whether direct application would harm the hop flowers. Since I've
never done this, I passed on that part of his question. I then related an
anecdote that showed how very potent Sevin is. I have no doubt that it is
every bit as effective against Japanese beetles as Ulick says it is, as well
as against any other living creature that crawls, flies, or walks.

>You may as well feed
>the Japanese beetles as spray on Safer (TM) products,

    I also never recommended Safer's for use against Japanese beetles. My
statement was that I personally would not use anything other than Safer's
on any plant which I planned to ingest. Safer's is quite effective against
certain pests such as spider mites. Ulick is correct in that it is not
effective against Japanese beetles.

>A beetle trap did catch quite a few, but I
>worried that it attracted more of the bastards than it snuffed out.

Steve Scampini writes:

>I have had absolutely great luck this year protecting my garden from
>hordes of J. Beetles using those traps which use both a floral and a
>sex pheremone (sp?) lure.  I have to empty the bag at least once every
>two days and have caught (no exageration) five pounds of bugs!!

>Make sure you place the
>trap about 30 feet away from your plants (not in amoungst them).

    The sex lure traps indeed work very well, though you must place them
some distance away from the plants you want to protect, as Steve says.
    Steve's post reminded me of something I did a few years ago. The
following story is not for the squeamish, so if you're so inclined, you
should skip to the next article now.

    I had a young choke cherry tree that was being devasted by Japanese
beetles. I used one of the sex lure traps, and was soon catching a bagful
every other day. The instructions on the trap said to change the bag
frequently, as the odor from decomposing dead beetles would repel others
attracted by the lure. I started storing the bags of dead beetles for an
additional day or two, just to make sure they were good and ripe, then spread
them on the ground around the choke cherry. Not only was this extremely
effective in repelling the beetles, I thoroughly enjoyed the irony of the
plant feeding on the predatory insect.

   Hope I didn't spoil anyone's lunch,
     Jim

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Date: 19 Jul 1994 10:13:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: Jap Beetles and predators

On the use of the traps for Jap beetles, I hung them at least 30feet away from
the hops and my cherry trees (more like 50 feet) and the traps were only
somewhat successful.  I did get beetle in the traps but most were on the hops.

One thing I did notice before the application of Sevin.  I noticed 1 (thats
one) Jap beetle that was wrapped in a cocoon and a thin looking spider (like a
daddy longlegs but not as big) nearby.  I think that the beetles do have some
predators but there was simply not enough of them in my garden to control the
population.  I am not an entymologist (I would be lucky if I spelled that
correctly) and I would be interested in knowing what other type of predators
the Jap beetles have so that I could 'introduce' them next year.  Again, I
don't particularly like using pesticides and would not mind if the beetles
munch a leave or two but, I have to use the stuff if there is no alternative. 

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford CT.

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 10:15:22 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: mashing in the husk

This is only very loosely related to brewing, but is an interesting
application of what we do to a very real summer problem -- getting
really sweet corn without growing it yourself.

A friend related an experiment he did.  He took an ear of corn and
split it into three pieces.  The first, he just boiled.  The second,
he soaked in 150F water for 10 minutes, then boiled it.  The third he
soaked in 150F water for 20 minutes and then boiled it.  The third was
the sweetest by far, the first was quite starchy.

You can be sure I'm going to try this with the next batch of corn I buy!

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 08:23:50 -0600 (MDT)
From: john keith hopp <jhopp at unm.edu>
Subject: SAM ADAMS-was this guy for real??


Note:  this is a summary of private postings received about SA and JK 
(per HBD 1477)

>What's the real beef against Jim Koch <tm?>?  What has been his
>reprehensible behaviour so as to warrant constant derision in HBD (a
>search through HBD back issues yields little detail).
>As for CooBudMill(etc.), I see that they are cranking out reliable crap
>and bogus ads, but SA seems much more reserved, ad-wise; quality is decent.
>Plus, SA is reasonably cheap ($5-6/per) and the bottles are tough and
>reusable (as Anchor has gone to crappy screw-tops).
>So, what's the beef?

The general consensus seems to suggest:
** Koch snarfs every bit of credit he can get for the improvements in the
*variety of beers you can find in this country. The fact of the matter is 
*that there was already a revolution happening on the west coast, from San
*Francisco all the way to Seattle; it's debatable whether he did anything
*significant to move this forward.

Also, there seems to be controversy surrounding his GABF "victories?"

THE ADS:
** SA was the only American beer who was sold in Germany since
*it was the only one to meet the German Purity Standard.   First, the reason
*that SA meets this criterion (which is no great feat, there's tons of
*BAD german beer that is up to "standard") is that its brewed IN germany 
*under contract.  All brewers there MUST meet the standard...
** You can just hear his whining in his ads (not his voice by the way, 
that's a paid actor's voice.)
**Furthermore, a radio ad he ran in the northwest took a not very
subtle slam at the traditional beer and agriculture of our region.

I thought his ads were originally clever, with the "they spill more beer 
than I make in a given year" bit; but then a small micro probably brews 
less beer than SA spills...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      
Also, his taking slams against NW micros does seem rather rude and 
unnecessary, a la A-B's pumpernickel stout ads.

The rest of the replies involved issues of (unnecessary) litigation 
wielded against smaller Boston breweries for trademark infringement 
and/or the use of "Boston" in beer or pub names.  Also, the hand-me-down 
patriotic recipe deal seems to be shameless--did the lite-beer inventor 
truly found the SA flagship beer?    

Many thanks to all repliers.  I must note the following:  I am an amateur!!  
I am not being paid (or coerced) to trash JK or SA!!  Don't sue me!!  
ALSO, AN INACCURACY:  I REALIZE THAT IT WAS ANOTHER CAL.MICRO. THAT WENT 
TO CRAPPY SCREW TOPS--APOLOGIES TO F.MAYTAG & CO.

To defend good ol' JK, I reiterate that his bottles are sturdy (tho the 
labels tough to remove) and that the product is good at $5-6/6.  However, 
I do offer this to all who care to read it:  YOUR POWER IS IN YOUR 
POCKETBOOK!!  SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL MICRO/PUB!!  

jhopp at unm.edu 


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 11:02:42 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Kriek kit

     Bill Rust inquired about the Brewferm Kriek kit. I used one
of these once and found that the cherry flavour did not come 
through alot. I also tried their Framboise kit later on and I did
not add the contents of the kit until the secondary fermentor
(5 lb. of two row pale malt and 50 g of hallertau hops were used
in the initial brew) and this time the raspberry taste came 
through quite well. Maybe it was just my Kriek kit or there very
well could be a difference between the Brewferm Kriek and
Framboise kits, but I would not use the kit until the secondary.
Brew with your malt and wheat first.
     Good luck!

  P.S. Thanks to the MANY people who resonded to my Fruit fly
post. There was none of the damn things flying around when I
transfered to the secondary, so I am just praying that none
of the little devils got in.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 12:00:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Mashing

> Subject: Mash and Sparge Times
> 
> I have been wondering about Mash and sparge times.  I am new to all 
> grain with about a half dozen batches to my name.
> 
> Mash
> Most people seem to mash for about an hour.  However, Dave Mosher's 
new book recommends mash times on the order of 2 to 2 1/2 hours.I've done 
> anywhere from 1 to 1 1/2 hours.
> 
> What's right?  How much does it vary per style or mash temperature.  
> Should you just do an iodine test and not worry?

There are no absolutes to answer this question.  A better question is 
"what does the brewer want to make?".  This varies considerably 
with equipment and grain choices.  Many good beers are produced using
US 2 row, and mash times in the 30 minutes range.  Your water 
chemistry may not allow conversion times this fast, so this is 
an area to watch if yields are low.  Most malts are fully mashed
after one hour at sacc. temps (150s).  Many malts will exhibit
rapid conversion in the 140s (what I call a beta rest, to maximize
the beta amylase activity, resulting in a more fermentable wort) and
if the mash is allowed to sit in this range, the beer's character
will change.  This is the good part of mashing, control of certain
details that will affect the outcome of the beer.  Experiment and
use diff types of malts for diff styles, and take good notes (esp
in the tasting phase to relate back to the mashing).  
> 
> Sparge
> There has been some discussion of this lately, but still I wonder... I 
> have had extraction rates from 22 to 30.  The 30 numbers are 
> when I use a _lot_ of water, ending up with 7 or 8 gallons, which 
> means a very long boil.  I'm not worried about getting every last 
> point out of my grain, but neither do I like to waste too much.

7-8 gallons of sweet wort in the boiler for a 5 gallon batch seems
perfect.  Just watch for final runnings in the 1.008-1.010 range
to determine when to stop sparging.
> 
> I can control the flow easily by adjusting the faucet I placed on the 
> cooler.  It's too soon to say for sure how much that seems to affect 
> the extraction.  

> Is slower better? I.e. turn the faucet way down?

About 1 -1.5 hours is normal for small brewers (5-15 galls).
> Is more water better? I.e. end up with very long boils?

A typical aim is to evaporate 10% of the volume per hour during a
90 min boil.  So you want 5 gallons of cast out wort, plus losses
to trub and ....., say 5.5 gals, or ~22.5 Litres.  Add 15%, to 
get ~26 litres, or 6.5+ gallons.

> Should I stir more?  I don't stir much now, as it seems to cause the 
> heat to disappear faster and I'm also concerned about HSA.
> Should I be perfectly satisified with 25 points?

Entirely possible, your call.  If you like the beer, whats
a few more cents for another pound of malt??

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 11:30:05 cst
From: "Joy Bill" <billj at mails.imed.com>
Subject: First time caller:  Long Mash , Wyeast , Wort Cooler???


I am a long time reader of HBD archives but just subscribed last night.
Thanks for the good info in the past!!!!

I am a new brewer (#3 in primary) but I made the jump to all grain
after the first kit (it's my Engineering background I think). A 
friend that has been brewing for about 5 years suggested a single 
step infusion mash that takes 10 - 20 hours (he also uses 
alpha-amylase religiously) He clams to get 90-95% conversions. His 
explanation is that the mash will pass through all good temperature 
ranges (starting at 155 deg. and dropping to 120 deg.) during the 
process, thus giving the benefits of multi stage mash procedures as 
well as longer exposure to enzymes for starch conversation . Is there 
any one out there that has the same experience? I have not seen this 
method in books or in this forum. Is my friend all wet?

I used liquid yeast (Wyeast London Ale ) in my brown ale recipe this 
weekend and had a near explosive experience. I started the package 
about 10am on Saturday (inside room temp about 72 - 75 deg.) and 
planned on doing the long mash over night. At about 2pm the Wyeast 
was off and running and I started thinking about mashing. By 6pm the 
package was inflated completely but not tight and I decided to 
proceed with the sparge and boil. I pitched the Wyeast at 1:30am 
Sunday morning ( the bag was tight and vented with good force when I 
cut the top off) but all seems to be well in the ale world now. Is 
there any thing I could do to anticipate the readiness of my Wyeast 
and control the run away scenario that I just experienced?? Will 
cooling the package adversely effect the yeasties by putting them to 
sleep or killing them??

I also want to thank all of you that have written about wort coolers 
and here is the design that I derived from those past conversations 
(plus my own twist in some areas).I built my wort cooler with 30 foot
of 3/8 OD copper tubing ($0.45 / ft) and a garden hose adapter on one
end (combination of fittings that only my hardware man knows for sure)
The outlet sprays down my driveway (I live in a swamp, No water 
conservation required). I have a double coil design with the outer 
coil near the edge of my brew pot and an inner coil coming up through 
the center. I cooled 4 gal of near boiling wort to 80 deg F in 17 
minutes. 

Tanx in advance for responses 

Bill Joy - billj at mails.imed.com - Master Brewer (some day) of the full 
line of Joy Juice Lagers and Ales. 


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 12:54:34 EDT
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Pumpernickel Stout Recipe

 From *Jeff* Renner 
 
There has been some interest in my "Pumpernickel Stout" that I mentioned 
several issues ago, so I will share the recipe.  In checking my notes, I 
find that it was March, 1985 (not 12 years ago).  I wanted to make oatmeal 
stout, and (remember, we didn't have many references back then in the dark 
ages) the best source I found was C.J.J. Berry's "Home Brewed Stouts and 
Ales," 4th ed., 1970, on p. 81.  It used 12 oz. rye, 6 oz. oatmeal, 8 oz. 
pale malt, 8 oz. black malt, 4 lb. sugar, 2 oz. hops, 2 t. brewing yeast and 
nutrient, 1/2 t. citric acid, and 4 gal (Imp., = 5 gal US) soft water.  See 
what miserable information we had to make do with?  I knew from Dave Line 
and experience that you couldn't mash all that grain with a half pound of 
pale malt, so I threw out everything except the oatmeal and rye, and made 
the following recipe.  Since I am a professional baker, I used coarse rye 
meal, aka rye chop or pumpernickel meal, hence the name.  It is the same 
consistency as or slightly finer than we aim for with our grist.  You can 
get rye berries from a health food store or food coop, or even a feed and 
seed store (don't get mercury treated seed!). 
 
     Pumpernickel Stout (5 gal  at  1.054) 
 
3/4 lb. medium ground rye berries 
6 oz. quick oats 
1 lb lager malt, home roasted to light brown (or substitute 1/2 lb choc. 
        malt and 1/2 lb. pale ale or lager malt) 
3 lb. lager malt 
3 lb pale ale malt 
1/2 lb crystal malt (I imagine this was 40 - 50^L) 
3 oz black malt 
3 oz. N. Brewer hops (no AA noted) 
Handful (1/2 oz?) Tetnanger hops for aroma 
 
I corona milled the grains.  Cook the rye meal and oatmeal with 1 gal water 
45 minutes, ad to 2-1/2 gal strike temp water and rest of grains to achieve 
mash temp of ~150^F.  I believe I must have mashed higher, like 153, since I 
got (and would want) a dextrinous wort.  I am surprised to see from my notes 
that I mashed for 3 hrs., longer than I do now.  I do (and did) this by 
putting my kettle in the oven at 150^F.  Sparged 7 gal, had a little trouble 
with it sticking, so I stirred and reset it; rye will do this, but roller 
milled malt should help), boiled 2 hrs to 5 gal. at 1.054 SG.  Didn't note 
whether I boiled the hops all two hrs., probably just the last hr.  
Tetnanger for 10 min. steep after heat off.  Counter current cooled, pitched 
with lots of (dry Red Star Ale) yeast from previous secondary fermenter.  
Open fermenter, skimmed, racked after three days, still quite active (beer 
filled air lock once).  I continued to bubble a long time, until I finally 
just bottled 4 oz corn sugar a one month.  No F.G. taken. 
 
This resulted in a fine, creamy rich, bitter stout (more bitter than oatmeal 
style, but I liked it).  Over time, it became drier and overcarbonated, but 
was still fine.  The home roasted malt gave a fine, fresh roast coffee-like 
aroma and taste.  This is something I often do for dark beers, and it is 
worth it.  I use an old steel stovetop popcorn popper that has a stirrer 
inside with a crank.  You could also oven roast it.  I like to use more of a 
lighter roasted grain for color and flavor, so I stop roasting before it is 
as dark as choc. malt. 
 
If I were to do this today, I would not bother with two pale malts (I was 
probably worried about not enough enzymes in pale ale malt), and would use a 
good liquid yeast (not Irish for this style), perhaps a fruity one like 
YeastLab Australian 01.  As a matter of fact, I think I will brew up a batch 
this next season.  If anyone out there does, let me know how it turns out! 
 
Jeff in Ann Arbor

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 12:19:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Jim Koch

There seems to be many unanswered requests for information about why Jim Koch
is disliked by a number of readers of hbd.  As I read it the following are
pertinent.

1) A great tendency to solve problems by resorting to lawsuits, and threatening
   when he doesn't get his own way.  Such suits are usually trivial, and in
   many cases a financial burden on the defendants.  In many cases the suits
   have been of other micro breweries for daring  to use such words as "Boston"
   or "brewing" in their advirtising.  He also threatened to sue the GABF
   when it threatened to exclude him for gross violations of the rules they
   had regarding advirtising.

2) The advirtising itself - Gosh, he has such a whiny little voice and goes 
   on about how the big brewers spill more beer in a year than he brews.

3) Describing his operation as a microbrewery, when most of his beer is 
   contract brewed by regional breweries like Pittsbergh, Blatz-Weinhard,
   and that one in Utica, NY (as far as I know).

Still, there are pluses.  His beer is often the only decent one on sale in many
bars around here, and he did send me a t-shirt, even if I do also get his
propaganda.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 14:21:53 EST
From: John DeCarlo x7116 <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Jim Koch Bashing

Hmmm, I see many requests for this info.  If anyone wants to get into gory 
details, please e-mail and I will try and compile what I have.  So this is 
just a summary, in no particular order, from my point of view.

1) Koch had ads that slammed homebrewers before A-B did.
2) Koch sued lots of places that used the name Boston (like brewpubs in 
   Boston).  Using lawyers to compete annoys some people, and using them 
   *after* being told by a judge that you can't own the name "Boston"
   annoys even more people.
3) Koch subverted the GABF by using buxom females and lots of giveaways
   to win the popular vote and get a gold medal.  In fact, it was Koch's 
   antics that led to the elimination of the popular vote.  Furthermore,
   his ads citing winning GABF medals were misleading (lies) until very
   very recently.
4) Koch likes to mislabel his beers, annoying the educated consumer.  The
   classic example is the "Cranberry Lambic" which has literally zero in 
   common with a lambic.

There is probably more, but I grow tired of this.  You can also cite positive 
things having a more-flavorful-than-megabrew beer so widely available, so 
judge for yourself.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 13:44:21 EDT
From: hpfcla.fc.hp.com!wslack!wrs (Bill Slack)
Subject: Re: Jim Koch

Several people ask what is the deal with all this Jim Koch bashing:

    
    This question  comes  up  so  often  it  should  be  put  in  a FAQ.
    Basically, the Jim  Koch issue comes down to two areas of behaviour.
    Some people are offended by his (that is, his company's) advertising
    tactics  with regard to lobbying  for  first  place  votes  in  beer
    festivals, claims about winning these contests,  and  the  erroneous
    use of the word "lambic" in his cranberry flavored beer.  While some
    are offended by this, others feel this puts him nowhere near the top
    of the worst offenders list in beer advertising.

    Of greater concern to some is the way he  has agressively challenged
    other organizations in the use of what he considers to  be his trade
    or  service  mark.  He has subjected some local (i.e., Boston  area)
    businesses  to  what some consider to be legal harrassment for using
    the words  "Boston"  and "Beer" in juxtaposition, which he maintains
    is an infringement  of  the  rights  of his company, the Boston Beer
    Company.  Although he  has  a  right  to try to protect his business
    name, many local observers consider  that  he  has  been extreme and
    heavy handed in doing so.

    For  the above reasons, coupled with  some  people's  perception  of
    arrogance on Koch's part, a "boycott Sam Adams" movement was popular
    for a while but some think it was more of a bandwagon mentality than
    a well considered action.

    To  Koch's  credit,  many  feel  he  was  instrumental  in  bringing
    high-quality interesting  beer (at least, relative to bumillercoors)
    to a large segment of the populace, at least here in the East.

    While I have  my own opinions on these matters, I have tried to keep
    the above comments balanced and unbiased.

    Bill

__
wrs at gozer.mv.com (Bill Slack)
    

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 12:14:13 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: enzymatic power of wheat malt

This is how it should be. I make some outrageous statement concerning brewing,
and people (very politely BTW) tell me I'm full of it. That way I can find
out that I'm wrong without crushing my fragile ego.

The line I wrote about wheat having "practically no enzymes" could sink me
here. Spencer and Korzonas both take me to task for this statement, and I'm
not afraid to admit that they seem to be right! I checked out Randy
Mosher's book "The Brewer's Companion", and sho nuff, there on page 135,
it mentions that wheat malt has a diastatic power rating of 49, more
enzymes than Vienna, Munich, or English pale ale malt! OOOOOOOO-weee!
Color me updated! Heck, if you believe Randy, even Oats got enzymes!

Each of these individuals also pointed out to me that UNmalted barley
and wheat (probably oats too, but who's counting?) have no enzymes.
This is some sort of clue that the malting process is very important,
if not essential, to the creation of enzymes.

**********************
I wrote:
>>1.2.    2 row Lager malt    2 degrees L
>>
>>This malt is also kilned at low temperatures to preserve the color 
>>and enzyme level.  It can be lower in 
>>enzyme and protein level than 6-row malt, but this quality depends 
>>on the strain of barley used in the 
>>malt. This malt is high in enzyme, and is poorly modified,  so it 
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(emphasis by Korzonas)

Korzonas responded:
>This was true years ago, but virtually all base malts these days are fully
>modified.  There are some exceptions, but what you get at the HB supply
>store is fully modified.  Also, this malt is known as "Pils" or "Pilsener"
>malt.

But I was under the impression that Pils or Pilsner malt was by
definition (well, "poorly" modified sounds like an ethical
judgement. I'll call it) less well modified, and that was why
one needed to use what Dr. Lewis called a program temperature
mash, as opposed to the well modified pale ale type malt, which can
use the single step temperature infusion mash. I do know that the
Great Western malting house does modify to "well done", and that
those smarties at A-B use that type of malt almost exclusively. I
thought that all barley could be 2- or 6-row (OK, there's a 4-row,
but I've never seen it...), and that the degree of modification made
the malt Pale (well) or Pils (not so well).

That's my working definition
anyway. I assume that if I by "Lager malt", be it 2 or 6 row, I must
use a step mash, or I will be overwhelmed by haze and confusion, while
if I have "Pale Ale malt", be it 2 or 6 row, I can get away with
infusion mashing. If this meets with general agreement, I will change
my document accordingly...

*********************************
In a completely unrelated note, I took a friend to a total of 2 Brews
Brothers meetings so far this year. After the second one, the
treasurer sent my friend a nasty-gram postcard, telling him that since
he is not a member of the club, he would no longer be allowed to
attend meetings...

My question is this. Do any other homebrew clubs (or any other type
clubs for that matter...) have attendance policies for non-members?
I got really mad at the treasurer, and I feel that his card was way
out of line. My friend may have been willing to join the club before,
but maybe now he doesn't feel like it, and I don't blame him. End of
soapbox...

2 pence worth..

Rich Webb

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 14:31:56 CDT
From: wood at ranger.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Wood)
Subject: Topping off the boil, San Antonio watering holes

Brent (the quintessential lurker) distains my sometime practice of
topping off the boil, to bring a batch up to the desired volume.
This practice has been particularly useful when brewing 10g batches,
to maximize the headspace in my kettle prior to hot break.  Brent
claims that this could produce HSA, off flavors, etc.  However, I've
seen other HBD posts mention bringing up the boil volume.  

So, am I flirting with disaster, or is Brent all wet?

Also, I'll be at the Hyatt Regency on Losoya street in San Antonio
next week.  Could someone please (quickly) suggest a couple of places
to drink some good brew?  TIA.

Dan Wood	FVHAA lifetime member		wood at cig.mot.com


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 14:35:20 EDT
From: Mark A. Stevens <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-Kriek


In HBD 1477, Bill King (WLK.Wbst311 at xerox.com) asked about adding Briess
Weizen syrup to his beers, per recipes in Miller.

I don't believe that the Briess extracts are sold under their own name,
which is probably why you didn't see it at your local brew shop. It's
pretty commonly known though that the Northwestern extracts are Briess
malts, so you could look for that. The extract is a blend of barley and
wheat, to the best of my knowledge.

Miller's suggestion to use 6.6 pounds seems about right to me. I just
flipped through the recipes in "Homebrew Favorites" to see what other
people had done with this malt and found one on page 181 by Martin Draper
called "Stumpy Wheaten Ale" that calls for 6.6 pounds of the Northwestern
wheat extract. Martin claims to have gotten an O.Go. of 1.040.

I've brewed several batches of wheat beer with Northwestern, always with
2 boxes (6.6 pounds), and have had good results. 

Bottom line (IMHO) is that Miller is probably on target.

Prosit!
- ---Mark Stevens
   stevens at stsci.edu

BTW: "Homebrew Favorites" is published by Storey Publishing, 
ISBN: 0-88266-613-4.  Send me e-mail if you want info on how
to get it.


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Date: 19 Jul 1994 17:12:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606" <ELLSWORTH%BRAVO at utrcgw.utc.com>
Subject: wort cooling



I'm a new subscriber to the digest, (and a new brewer for that
matter!_(one batch done, one on the way!)) so if this is an old
topic, please forgive me....

I just saw a thread in a previous digest about wort cooling. I
suppose i'll have to dig into this a little, but in one of the
books i was reading prescribed simply pouring/straining the hot
wort into a carboy containing 2 or 3 gallons of cold water. Ahhh,
somehow i'm getting the idea this is, (pardon me) not kool?

Any suggestions? I don't mind filling the sink or a cooler with
ice water and setting the brew pot into that, but building/buying
and then cleaning some contraption doesn't sound appealing.

Rather than clutter up the digest with this presumably old topic,
private mail (/flames) might be in order.


 -brian ellsworth   (ellsworth%bravo at utrcgw.utc.com)


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 17:11:55 EDT
From: white at rcc.com (Robert T. White)
Subject: rootbeer

Several months ago I saw a couple of recipes for rootbeer the one I was 
interested in used real roots instead of an extract. I had saved it but 
I had a hard drive failure and lost it. If anyone could repost it would 
be appreciated.

Also,
I have brewed about eight times and I seem to have the same problem.
after the fermentation is complete and 

I was told that when your wort is done fermenting if you place it 
in the fridge at 34F it will cause most of the sediment to go to the 
bottom of the carboy. Has anyone tried this? I was thinking about trying
this out with a stout that I am currently brewing.

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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 15:54:17 PDT
From: JRT1%WPC%DCPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: ...no subject...

I'm looking for a recipe for a Sapporo or Kirin style (Japanese) beer.  
Prefer it to be extract type.

Thanks,

JRT1 at PGE.COM

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 09:03:32 EST
From: <mop3 at BoM.GOV.AU> (Midas Operator 3)
Subject: Batch priming question.

Firstly, a big thanks to all who take part in the providing quality
information to the HBD, discovering HDB on the Internet has re-kindled my
interest in homebrewing after a break of several years. In those (bad!?) old
days it was a can of Cooper's Real Ale and a kilo of white sugar. But with
the help and information I've found on this listing, I've just made my
first batch using extracts.

I used to prime with a teaspoon of white sugar per 750ml (26oz) bottle, but
now want to use batch priming from now on. The most common quanities I've
seen for American recipes call for 3/4 cup of corn sugar or 1 1/4 cup of DME.
Can someone tell me how many millilitres there are to a US cup? Our metric
cup, in Australia, is 250ml and the batch I've made is 5 Imperial gallons, or
23 litres, so I want to get the ratio correct.

Is there any differance in the overall taste using either corn sugar or
dried malt extract? And finally, what's the differance between putting the
priming mix into a bottling bucket and syphoning the wort into it and just 
pouring the primer onto the top of the wort in the fermenter? I'm using a
plastic fermenter with a tap. Using the second method will it mix in OK, or
should it be stirred gently, or left to stand for a short period?

TIA Stephen Hudson s.hudson at bom.gov.au

PS. Many thanks to those who answered a previous question about cleaning
a new wort chiller...work commitments prevented me from replying to those
who answered my questions. The chiller worked very well BTW!!!

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:44:23 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Phenols in Wyeast 2007?

Dear Friends, first a big thank you to all the respondents to my questions
about partial mashing.  The post by John Palmer that appeared a day or two
later is as good a summary of the responses I got as is possible, so I
won't summarize here.  I consider my hand to be firmly held!

Today's question: I have a batch of lager in the primary of which I am
beginning to worry. I used Wyeast 2007 resurrected from my friend Brett
Shorten's bottle dregs, and stepped the culture up from 250 ml to 500; at
which time the starter tasted fine.  Recipe (23 litres) = 3.25 kg light
syrup, 250 gr 22L Cara-something (bag says -Pils but it's prob. -Vienna?
The 22L is correct tho), 500 gr 15L Munich, 50 gr each wheat malt and
flaked barley, 20 gr 6.1 Tettnang pellets + 15 gr 5.0 Hersbruck pellets 60
min, 20 gr 4.7 Spalt flowers 5 min.  Grains were sorta mashed--my prelim
to my first partial-mash--by using appropriate amount of water, raising to
mash T (65C), leaving in the oven for an hour, then "sparging" using a
collander.  Just to get the feel, folks, I have no illusions about great
extraction.  Anyway, OG of 1051 fell to only 1043 in 72 hours (T = 18C for
first 24, then moved to balcony at 10C for remainder), startup was <18
hrs. 48 hours later grav was only 1039, and I sipped my test-jar.  Highly
phenolic!  I mean highly.  Another 48 hours and grav reached 1030--fully
seven days after pitching--and the phenolic flavor is even stronger.  I am
not concerned with the speed, I know lagers take a while, but the phenolic
taste is most unpleasant, tastes like a wild yeast infection to me.  The Q
then: is 2007 known to be phenolic at these stages of fermentation?  Our
local brewstore owner/guru says yes, and Brett says he recalls something
from the digest sometime in the past on this. 

Email or post, whatever you like, and thanks yet again for your continued
support. Cheers, Dave in Sydney

- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
david.draper at mq.edu.au		NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

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Date:         Tue, 19 Jul 94 21:05:17 CDT
From: Melissa Schauder <S978660 at UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU>
Subject:      trouble with ale recipe

Hello all, and thanks to the responses I received a few months ago from my
first post.  This time I have a question about possible bacterial infections.
After much advice on purchasing a book and a hydrometer, I did both, and de-
cided to follow a recipe in Papazian's "joy of homebrewing", called Avogadro's
Expeditious Old Ale.  I followed the recipe to the T, however, have found that
my brew has an exceptionally strong sour taste to it.  Looking through the book
I can only assume that I have some sort of bacterial infection in my beer.

I've let the brew age for 4 weeks now, and have found it to have a strong head,
clarity, and a good hop flavor, however, an overwhelming sour taste that
obviously does not belong there.  If this is an infection, this is the first
I've encountered, and am wondering what brought it on.  I sanitized everything
as usual, fermented for a week, etc.  I'm thinking that possibly, the temp was
too high when I pitched my yeast (two packets instead of one - one from one
of the kits, one ale yeast bought separately).

I'd appreciate any input on this, since I haven't had undrinkable brew until
now.  I've tasted three bottles, and thrown them out, but hate the idea of
getting rid of the whole batch.  ( A friend and I both shared the first bottle,
knowing the risk of phenolic brew, but did not experience any side effects ).

The taste is extremely bitter/sour, but does not have a moldly smell, nor taste
 .  Neither does the beer contain any skunkiness, cidery tastes, or cloudiness.

 Any E-mail is appreciated.  Thanks!






^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          melissa schauder  s978660 at umslvma.umsl.edu


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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 22:33:25 EDT
From: BeerSweat at aol.com
Subject: Beer & Sweat - Keg Competition - BJCP Exam

Lots of good stuff in the Cincinnati area on August 20th.

Beer & Sweat 94, the 6th annual midsummer homebrewers' blast, will be held on
Saturday, August 20th.
If you've been to a prior Beer & Sweat, you won't want to miss this one. If
you've never been to one, you're hereby invited.

ALSO:

The FIRST EVER AHA-sanctioned KEG ONLY homebrew competition will be held in
conjunction with Beer & Sweat.
Entrants and judges are invited to request details.

ALSO:

The Beer Judge Certification Exam will be held in conjunction with Beer &
Sweat. Anyone interested in becoming a judge ($50 for first time takers, $30
for a retest) is invited to request details. You must pre-register by mail in
advance, so please get the details now and reserve one of the LIMITED places
at the exam as early as possible.

To save HBD bandwidth, full details on Beer & Sweat, the B&S Keg Competition,
and the BJCP exam are available by e-mail to anyone interested. Please
request info from:
BeerSweat at AOL.com



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1480, 07/20/94