FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Malt modification and heading (WIRESULTS)
  Danger ("Dave Suurballe")
  Beer in Capital District, San Diego reply; hot-side aeration ques (uswlsrap)
  Malt Modification II (George J Fix)
  OOOOOPS! on LOOONG mashes/raking (or stirring) the mash (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Hose Job (msadul)
  Keg boiler drain without welding (John Glaser)
  Relevance of boiling hop varieties (Paul Sovcik)
  Seattle Area Brewpubs ("THOMAS L. STOLFI")
  Oregon Brewers Festival (Steve Peters)
  Nope, its oak. (Erik Speckman)
  Mac Digest browsers. (Erik Speckman)
  In Gott's Name ... (-: (Conan-the-Librarian)
  HSA rears its ugly head again (Ulick Stafford)
  Gott Coolers (one more time) (Keith Winter)
  Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #1483 (July 23, 1994) (RogerL4246)
  keg to boiling pot & wierd hop reactions ("Thomas J. Ramsey")
  Jim Koch BS:  A Prime Example (Kelly Jones)
  San Diego (Tom Baier)
  Very old brew (mkropp)
  Re: Phenolic aroma & Wyeast scottish ale (#1728) (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Gook!Trub:Yeast&Heat (BToddL69)
  NOTE 07/21/94 08:14:00 ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  homebrew mail-order alert ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  mail-order alert ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  mail-order homebrew blues ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 10:28:59 -0500
From: WIRESULTS at WINET.mste.org
Subject: Malt modification and heading


Dr. Fix recently wrote...

> This jives 100% with my own experiences, and may explain why many have 
> found that their lagers come out best when imported Pils malts are used.
> I personally use highly modified malt for ales (both from domestic 2-row
> as well as malt from the UK). The above work suggests that if a multiple
> temperature mash is used then the starting point should be no lower than
> 60C (140F). This is also consistent with what I have been finding with my
> own brews, and I would be interested in what others have experienced.

This is slightly ambiguous to me... Are you saying that you should not do
the protien rest on highly modified (e.g. US 2 row) malts or is it on the 
lower modified malts of the continent? And what about the dough in at 60F 
temps affect? Do you believe this to be mainly a function of modification
or is the content (biological/chemical) of the grain itself of some 
importance in this problem?

Interesting bit of work, that... There is so much yet to know; not enough
time to know it...


rjl
wiresults at winet.mste.org



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Date: 22 Jul 1994 11:26:40 -0700
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: Danger

Bob Sheck talked about how he deals with plastic hoses and
incidentally described how he starts the siphon which empties
his glass carboy.  He applies about five pounds of CO2
pressure to a sealed carboy.

I do it this way, too.  I am very experienced with the use
of CO2, and I know all kinds of things that can go wrong
with this way.  I suggest that anyone not very experienced
NOT do it this way.  Instead, start the siphon in one of
the usual ways, because the usual ways cannot kill you.

You all have good imaginations; imagine what happens when
a carboy violently explodes.  Imagine where those pieces
of glass go, how fast they move, how sharp they are,
what they run into, and what they do to what they run into.

Imagine standing in front of your carboy, about three feet
away from it, watching the progress of the siphon.  Imagine
saying to yourself, "Yep, just about halfway done", and
imagine the carboy blowing up at just that instant.

This is what I do when I start my siphon in this way,
and it is also what you should do:

Before applying CO2 pressure to the sealed carboy
I say to myself:

1. This is very, very risky.  This is the riskiest thing
I do in this brewery.
2. Any number of things can go wrong, and they will all result
in the carboy exploding.
3. I may not have set the regulator correctly.  Maybe it's
still set at 30 pounds from the last time I used it.
4. I may not have read the guage correctly.  Maybe it says
fifteen instead of five.
5. This guage may not be accurate.  This doesn't matter so
much in dispense or racking from steel, but today I'm
pressurizing glass.  I cannot trust this $5 guage with my life.
6. This regulator may be dirty or otherwise faulty.  It
could suddenly change and deliver way more gas than I meant.
I cannot trust this $25 regulator with my life.
7. This regulator may suddenly fail completely and dump
hundreds of pounds of pressure into its output line.
I know that dispense systems all have multiple blow-off
safety valves to try to minimize damage in this eventuality.
I cannot trust the blow-off on this regulator to blow all
that gas out and allow none of it into the glass jug.
8. Where are my safety glasses?
9. Is my wife home to call the ambulance if this thing
blows up?

Then I apply the pressure to the sealed jug and hide behind
something.

Like I said, I have a lot of experience, and I've seen every
one of the above failures except number 7.  I have seen each
of the other equipment failures happen, and I have done each
of the "pilot errors".  None of them have happened yet with
a glass jug, though.

Sometimes people are killed by their hobby, like hang-gliders,
parachutists, race-car drivers, etc.  I'm sure it's pretty
rare for an amateur brewer to be killed by their hobby, but
I don't want to be that rare case.  And my wife doesn't
want me to be, either.

A few years ago, I published a similar diatribe about the
risk of using CO2 in poorly ventilated basement rooms, and
some readers gently ridiculed me for being overly
melodramatic.  If you think this letter is that way, too,
well, I respect that.  You're right, so just mutter something
and scroll on to the next article.

And by way of apology for this, I am on cold medicine today,
and don't feel quite normal.

Suurballe

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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:37:52 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.COM
Subject: Beer in Capital District, San Diego reply; hot-side aeration ques

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

To: INTERNET--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
      Research Analyst  4-6982
Subject: Beer in Capital District, San Diego reply; hot-side aeration ques
tion


Beerguy from Tacoma asks about beer in Albany area:

If you want a bar with a huge bottled menu (okay, a decent bottled menu) and a
fair number on tap, try Holmes & Watson in Troy.  There's a relatively new
brewpub there also--Brown and Moran, on River Street.  I've been there twice.
Not bad, no major defects, but some of the beers just aren't very interesting.
The styles that ought to be hoppy (bitterness and/or flavour) aren't.  In
fact, some of them are downright sweet.  Still worth a stop.  Interesting stuff
on the walls in a restored warehouse-type building, reasonably-priced food,
and as the place gets established the beer may well improve.

I agree heartily with the praise give McNeill's in Brattleboro--much better
than the bland Windham brews. (although the porter there wasn't so bad)
McNeill's has eight varieties and great atmosphere.Windham is a decent
restaurant with art-deco decor.

One decent place to buy beer (to take home) is Thruway Beverage in East
Greenbush on Route 20, betwwen exits 10 and 11 of I-90.

If you want to take a short drive, go to the Woodstock Brewery in Kingston
(about 50+ miles south).  I missed out on getting a tour, but did sample their
beers at Schneller's near the Stockade district.  Nice little bar

On FX Matt Saranac line--1) do the tour if you have time.  Not the greatest
tour for a homebrewer, but they are the biggest contract brewer in the country.
2) I just saw the Saranac Pale Ale while in Albany in June.  To my knowledge,
it's a new style for them.  Very respectable beer.

Someone else wanted to know about San Diego brewpubs:
It's been a while since I've been there, but Old Columbia, downtown is the
original one for that town.  A little brass and fern, but they give a tour and
the beer is okay.  More recently, I've been to the Pacific Beach Brewhouse.
Ceiling is decorated with a variety of beer t-shirts from all over, and the
bags of grain line one of the walls.  The beer??  The stout wasn't, and the
stout with mint extract added (blecccch) was awful.  The rest were decent,
albeit not very adventurous.  I'd return anyway.

By now, however, I'm sure there are other brewpubs in the area.  I didn't
get to Brewski's (Gaslamp district), but I understand it's okay.

NOW FOR MY OWN QUESTION:

I'm aware of the nasties of hot-side aeration and wonder if I have a remedy.
First, I'm an extract-and-specialty-grain brewer and make no apology.  I
live in an apartment and have no room for extra equipment.  I also like the
idea that I can decide to brew (yeast starter permitting) at 9 or 10pm on
a weeknight and finish in time to be in bed at a decent hour.







I cool my wort (about 2-2.5 gallons in a 5 gallon SS kettle) in a sink of cold
water and top off to 5 gallons in the fermenter.  My question is whether there
is any reason why I should not add a gallon or so of my chilled "top-off"
water _to the kettle_ to bring down the temperature faster and _then_ dump the
partially diluted wort into the fermenter, where I will add the remainder of
the chilled water.  It seems such a simple solution that I wonder why I've
never seen it suggested.  I'd rather do that than have the wort spend more
time in the sink-bath where it could potentially attract beasties during the
longer cooling period.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:00:39 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Malt Modification II

I have gotten a number of questions about my post on modification, so perhaps
some additional comments are in order.

Terms like "overmodification" and "undermodification" are vague and 
potentially misleading. A large number of numerical indices have been
proposed for malt modification, but the two most widely cited are
Friability and the Kolbach Index.

Friability is an easy one, and can be determined by chewing on the grain.
A highly modified malt will chew like a marshmallow, while at the other
extreme raw barley will have the texture of a ball bearing. The Kolbach
Index strongly correlates with this, and is the % wort nitrogen to malt
nitrogen (as measured in a laboratory mash). The following are normally
used as guidelines:

      undermodified          <35%
      moderate modification  35-37%
      highly modifiied       >40%

With this criteria the malt used at Pilsen (at least as of 1990) is
undermodified, the Pils malts available here (DeWolf-Cosyns, Durst,
and Irek) are moderately modified, while most UK and UK malts are
highly modified.

I personally feel that a protein rest should be used with the Pils malts,
provided that the total time spent under 40C (140F) does not exceed 30-40
mins. In particular, I have found that lager beer made from the DeWolf-
Cosyns Pils malt and a single temperature mash will tend to be thin and 
insipid compared to one made from a multiple temperature mash.

It is not surprising that some brewers in the US and UK specializing in
delicately flavored lagers prefer highly modified malt, specially those
doing 8-10 brews a day. However, if ones idea of lager beer starts with
something along the lines of Spaten's Maibock, then I can see how different
conclusions can be drawn. What the research seems to be showing is that
optimization of malt flavor in lager beer requires that the bulk of the 
protein breakdown take place under conditions found in a protein rest, as
compared with a germination box. In addition, excessive protein breakdown
is harmful to beer flavor and foam, and this is true for ales as well as 
lagers. This is undoubtly why Dr. Narziss is recommending that the mash start
at 60-62C if highly modified malt is used. An alternative I have been 
looking at with ale malt is to start at 35C(95F) and then go to the rests
over 40C. There is no proteolytic activity at 35C, but beta-glucanase is
active and there is some evidence that alpha-amylase is active in assisting
grain liquefaction. The hope is that this will give the benefits of a low
temperature rest without excessive protein modification.


George Fix


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Date: 22 Jul 94 18:56:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: OOOOOPS! on LOOONG mashes/raking (or stirring) the mash

In a recent HBD, I wrote about enzymes and heat and the denaturing of these
enzymes.  Well, in my haste, I accidentally said "thermophilic" when I meant
to say "thermolabile."  Thermophilic would mean "loving heat" which is exactly
opposite of what I meant to write.  Thanks (I think) to all the HBDers who
pointed out my mistake.  What I meant to say was:

Your friend seems to be happy with it, and it wlll work, but it is unnecessary
to mash so long.  It is sort-of incorrect to say that since the mash starts
out at 155F and works its way down to 120F that it passes through all the
proper rest temperatures.  Most (all?) of the enzymes that are associated
with brewing are thermolabile, meaning that they are denatured by heat.
Let's take alpha- and beta-amylase for example.  The reason that you can
control how dextrinous your wort becomes is because beta-amylase is more
thermolabile than alpha-amylase.  After several hours at 158F, both will be
denatured, but beta-amylase will be denatured after only a few minutes at
this temp, whereas the alpha will last a couple of hours.  Note that the
proteolytic enzymes (protein rest) are even more thermolabile than the
amylase enzymes.  I don't have all the figures here at work, but I'm pretty
sure that the proteolytic enzymes would be long "dead" by the time that
your friend's mash got down to the protein rest range.  This is why when
you do a program temperature mash you always go UPWARD.  You begin with
acid rest, then you go up to protein rest, then liquifaction/saccharification.

*************
Jim writes:
>Stirring the lauter is not great but it is also not bad.  What 
>you want to do to increase efficiency/yield is to "knife" the
>lauter beginning about halfway through the lautering.  Dont 
>knife too deep, but by "rakeing" the grains you will help to 
>eliminate channeling that can occur. 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Jim.  I contend that raking (sp?)
would INCREASE channeling since the "knives" cutting through the grain
bed would create channels (sort of like 3-D rivers) through the bed and
that the sparge water would have a tendancy to continue to travel down
these paths of least resistance.  Granted, this is not my area of expertise,
but I've talked to my dad (his degree is in Civil Engineering where channeling
through soil is the issue) about this and he seemed to agree that my theory
on the grain bed is probaby valid.

During a tour I took of Chicago Brewing Company, I noticed that their rakes
were on during the lauter.  I later asked brewmaster Greg Moehn about the
rakes and he was very forthcoming.  He said that they (if I recall correctly)
run the rakes 5 minutes and then stop them for 25.  They tried this ONCE on
a batch of Heartland Weiss and could not restart them.  Talk about set mash!
They had to shovel the grain out by hand.  By the way, the rakes at CBC run
at 1/2 rpm.

While studying for the BJCP exam (back in April), I recall reading in Hough's
"The Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing" that rakes were *not* essential in
infusion mashes, but *are* for decoction mashes.  He said that the boiling
of the decoctions boils out the trapped air which gives infusion mash grain
beds some boyancy.  It's this lack of boyancy, Hough said, which is what
makes the rakes necessary when lautering a decoction mash.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:09:00 -0400
From: msadul at interactiv.com
Subject: Re: Hose Job


In HBD #1482, BSHECK at nimue.hood.edu writes:

> Then, I jam the flexible end up the spout of my utility sink (yours
> may not fit, but this is what _I_ do...) and run hot tap water
> through it to rinse for about 5 minutes - while I get my carboys

I used to do this, but find it much easier to use a 5 foot piece of
thick outdoor rubber garden hose attached to the spout.  The end of the
siphoning hose fits snugly into the garden hose.  The garden hose
attachment also makes it MUCH easier to rinse out carboys, kegs, etc.

> NOW, the important part: When you are done with the hose, replace
> it into the sink and flush it really well. shake excess water out
> of it (I grab it in the middle where the flexible hose mates with
> the stiff siphoning cane, and spin it around, letting centrifigle
> force remove most of the water) and plug the open end of the
> flexible hose over the open end of the racking cane! This is how I
> store it until the next time.

I also used to whip my hose around :) including the racking cane end.
After breaking the J part of the cane off on 4 racking canes :( , I stopped
this practice. Now I simply remove the cane from the hose and drape the
hose over a door. Although it takes a few days to dry, I have not noticed
any infection beasties in it. Your hose may vary.

Mike
msadul at interactiv.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 13:04:22 -0700
From: John Glaser <glaser at analog.ece.arizona.edu>
Subject: Keg boiler drain without welding

Having recently aquired a very cheap keg at the local swap meet (where I was  
assured that the keg was legally obtained ;), I thought about how to put a  
drain in it without welding (I don't know any metalsmiths, unfortunately, and  
am too poor to pay for this stuff).

I came up with two methods:

1)	Use a brass drain fitting designed for evaporative (swamp) coolers. 

	This fitting has an outside garden hose thread with a nut and gasket to 

	fit. It also has a 1/2" pipe thread thru the inside to attach standard 

	fittings. Cost: $3-4. I am sure this is not an original idea.

2)	If you don't live in the southwest, you may not be able to find such a 

	fitting. Another method is to get a 3" or 4" brass 1/4" NPT nipple. 

	Have someone extend the thread on one end of the pipe another inch or 

	so. This will leave about an inch of thread that has no taper on it. 

	You can buy large brass nuts that fit this thread, but if you can't
	find them, you can make them by cutting the nut portion of a 1/4" 

	female NPT to 1/2" male NPT adapter. Thread one nut to the end of the
	pipe with extra thread, insert through keg drain hole, and thread on
	other nut with a gasket. I found that a Grolsch gasket works well for
	this. Cost: $4-5.

I used the second method because all my fittings, valves, etc. are 1/4" NPT,  
and I didn't want to buy any more adapters. Also, I already had a 1/2" bit to  
drill the drain hole, and the cooler fitting needs a >1" hole.

Either method is leak-tight, removable, cheap, easy, and doesn't require  
kludging together a foot-long chain of adapters.

Hope this saves someone a few $$$ and hours,

John Glaser (glaser at analog.ece.arizona.edu)

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Date:         Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:57:28 CDT
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Relevance of boiling hop varieties

    After searching my local hombrew shop for a certain hop variety and
coming up unsuccessful in my search (time to restock, Al  :)  ), I stood at
the cooler and wondered....
       Does it really matter what variety of hop you use when you are using
it as an early addition?  I mean, all you really want to get out of it are
bittering units, and the varietal-specific aromatic characteristics are  going
to be boiled off anyway.
      Therefore, might it be not a whole lot cheaper to buy super high alpha
hops and dole out small, carefully measured amounts for the 60' boiling
additions?
      Or am I missing something....  is using Saaz as a boiling hop going to
make my beer taste significantly different than using an equivalent (in HBUs)
amount of Eroica?
 -Paul Sovcik

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Date: 22 Jul 1994 15:11:15 GMT
From: "THOMAS L. STOLFI" <OBCTS at CWEMAIL.CECO.COM>
Subject: Seattle Area Brewpubs


     I have a friend who appreciates good beer and is going to Seattle on
     business next week.  If you know of some good pubs/micros in the
     Seattle area could you please email me the info privately at
     obcts at cwemail.ceco.com.  Thanks in advance.

     Tom Stolfi



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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:34:41 -0700
From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com>
Subject: Oregon Brewers Festival

Here's some more info about the Oregon Brewer's Festival for those who might
want to come:

	Brewer's Festival
	"In Search of the Holy Ale"
	July 29, 30, 31
	Riverfront Park
	Portland, OR

Festival Hotline: 503-288-BREW
Breweries represented: 63 (!)
beer hours: friday 4-9pm saturday 12-9pm sunday 12-8pm
cost: to enter beer garden: free  (minors can come in to the fest too)
      to drink: $2 for the mug, $1 for a 6 oz "taste", $2 for 12 oz.

The festival still needs a few volunteers.  If you'd like to get involved, call
the hotline.  Volunteers get a cool t-shirt, mug, & some free beer in exchange
for 4 hrs of their time.

- -- 
Steve Peters
stevep at pcx.ncd.com
Sustaining Engineering and Support
Network Computing Devices

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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 18:16:37 -0800
From: especkma at reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: Nope, its oak.


>6# Laaglander Amber Malt powder steeped for 60 min.
>1 oz fuggles boiled for 60 min
>1 0z fuggles boiled for 2 min
>1t irish moss for 15 min.
>1 wyeast London Ale Liquid yeast
>3/4 cup malto-dextrin

Phil Miller brewed the above beer.  On day six he opened it expecting it to
be undercarbonated. it was flat and it tasted like oak.  He wants to know
why:

I think a big factor in the oak taste is the Wyeast London Ale yeast.  My
experience is that this yeast has a bit of a woody flavor.  My limited
experience is that carbonation can change the flavor balance of a beer
dramatically (and for the better).

I am curious as to why the beer is flat after six days, wyeat london ale
has been a good carbonator for me.  How much of what was used to prime,
not the malto-dextrin I hope?



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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 18:38:56 -0800
From: especkma at reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: Mac Digest browsers.


>From: sammy at biochemistry.BIOC.CWRU.Edu (Sam Shank)
>Subject: THREAD program
>
>>For those of you unfamiliar with THREAD, it is a program for MS-DOS
>>computers that searches back issues of the Homebrew Digest using multiple
>
>Is there something similar for the Mac? My mail program will do it (Eudora)
>but it is painfully slow.

Try Easy View.  It handles a number of formats, if HBD is standard digest
format, it will work with it too.  It seemed pretty fast when I used it for
searching another collection.



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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 06:22:01 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (Conan-the-Librarian)
Subject: In Gott's Name ... (-:


"Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:50:44 +0000
 From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
 Subject: Gott coolers.


"     Having seen various references to "Gott coolers", I came to
 the realisation that these are the big insulated boxes that you
 take on picnics to keep stuff cool (homebrew being one example).
 I haven't heard the name "Gott" in the UK so wasn't sure at first."


This confused me for a while, too. Let me offer my two cents, as a
similarly confused person whom is so fortunate as to know what the
heck a "Gott" cooler is.

				-=8=-

Basically, you can use anything you want to mash in. But, heck, why
go to all that trouble to insulate a pot, drill a hole and weld a
spigot on ... when the same thing can be bought for $29.95 at the
corner store ? Enter the Gott cooler.

I think the reason "Gott" coolers command such a following is easier
to understand when one has seen a Gott. They are, specifically, tall
and round ... rather than short and square, as many coolers tend to
be. Gotts are also consistently colored orange and white, I believe.

In theory, one can use _any_ cooler. Even a square one would work in
a pinch. However, the geometry of a Gott - round, for minimal surface
area through which heat can be lost, and tall, so that rising heat is
emitted slowly through a smaller surface area on the top - is superior.
Add the insulated top, some widgetry on the bottom to facilitate drain-
 -ing, and it is a perfect solution.

So you don't need a Gott(tm), per se ... you need a tall, round cooler
with the suitable geometry. Shouldn't be too hard to find, I think it's
a well-known fact that curved surfaces offer less surface area through
which energy may be radiated ( or absorbed ).

				-=8=-

The last question to be answered is, of course, will this plastic thing
melt into a pool of hot plastic and grain and protowort when I start to
add 180 degree ( Fahrenheit - let's say about 90 Celsius ) water to it ?
Well, it's not an unreasonable question. These things are made of food-
 -grade plastic, but the design intention was that these things sit on
the tailgates of trucks out in the desert and people fill their cups
and whatnot from them. It's designed to hold water and maybe ice, too -
it's not a bleeding cook-pot. (-:

However, Gott coolers pass this test ... and this is the other reason
why Gotts command respect. They are known to not flow into slag when
they come into contact with boiling water.

Based upon my somewhat limited knowledge of food-grade plastics, I'm
fairly sure this will remain true for most if not all coolers. But, un-
 -less one _wants_ to blaze a trail into new territory ( as some warped
mind did with respect to the Gott, many years ago :-) one would do good
to stick with a known and tested solution that is widely available.

				-=8=-

Well, hell, so it turns out that Gotts aren't available in the UK.
All is not lost. Simply evaluate the existing coolers with respect to
three things :

	- capacity
	- geometry
	- material

Generally, everything made of plastic explains what it's made of. Take
note of that material's name, for each cooler. They may all be made of
the same thing. Then, post those names to the HBD, and ask one of the
real Plastic Gurus here ( a flexible bunch, I hear :-) what the scoop
is on these plastics. One or more of them will meet your needs, and you
may then buy in confidence, and sleep well at night ... even if it does
not say "Gott" on it.	(-:



- -- richard


                 Law : The science of assigning responsibility.
              Politics : The art of _distributing_ responsibility.

   richard childers        san francisco, california        pascal at netcom.com

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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 11:46:36 -0500 (EST)
From: ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: HSA rears its ugly head again

Seemed to be a few brewers worried about HSA in Saturday's issue.
One worried about diluting wort with tap water, and another worried 
about sparging.  RDWHAHB.  While some HSA may technically be possible
it is not worth worrying about.  Most oxygen added will leave befoe it 
can react, and if any does react it is possible that the resulting 
compound will adsorb to hop or trub and leave.  Besides if your beer is
perfect enough that you could detect the effects you'd be a much better
brewer and taster than most.  

I did notice that some net censors are appearing again.  A poster, who
was obviously upset about discussion of Jim Koch, seemed to think that
such discussions were in some way American called on Canadians to join him
in complaining!  Personally, I am not American and have found the present
rediscussion of Jim Koch's operation interesting and informative.  There
was even a defense of the man himself today.  There have always been slams
on his ads, like there are slams on recent AH ads.  Just put things in 
perspective.  His beers are fine even if they are not microbrews, and
even if the recipie is not his great grandfather's, and even if
Sam Adams wasn't a brewer. You do have to admire his story telling ability!
RE. the AH ads, the complaints about them tell more about some homebrewers
not being able to take a joke.  The ad was clever in that most homebrewers
prefer other tipples to Bud so AH is not offending loyal customers.  The
loss of business from people who would have drunk Bud instead of Miller if 
no decent beer were available will not really affect its bottom line.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 10:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: winter at corp.cirrus.com (Keith Winter)
Subject: Gott Coolers (one more time)


I have been reading the thread on Gott coolers and have one question:
Are the coolers being used the cylindrical shape or rectangular shape?
Both are available here in the SF Bay area.  Is one shape better than
the other?

Thanks,

	Keith Winter
	winter at corp.cirrus.com


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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 94 15:55:38 EDT
From: RogerL4246 at aol.com
Subject: Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #1483 (July 23, 1994)

Help! I am new to computers and I don't want to make too much unnecessary
noise- I don't yet know the protocol or method to respond to the individual
questions.  I am the brewmaster at a small California brewery (15 barrel brew
length) and I would love to answer any questions.  I am RogerL4246 at aol.com.
 Cheers.


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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 15:23:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Thomas J. Ramsey" <tjram at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: keg to boiling pot & wierd hop reactions

Two quick questions:

1) I remember as a teenager a neighbor used to come get my help bringing a
keg from his car into his garage, where he had a fridge w/ a tap coming out
the door.  I finally acted upon this memory and after enlisting my father's
help, tracked him down.  I offered to 'borrow' a keg from him for the cost
of the deposit.  Apparently the frige broke down some time back, but he
still has an empty keg sitting there, and I can have it for nothing. The
question now is, what do I do with it. More to the point, how do I convert
it to make a boiling vessel?  I know this has been discussed in recent
history, so if someone could forward me some info via private E-mail, that
would be appreciated.

2) This is for you chemists out there.  Recently, I took a carboy that had
just been used in a primary fermentation and rinsed it quickly, then
refilled it and let it soak for about a day (probibly in a mild bleach
solution, but I'm not sure)before scrubbing out the hops.
Well, a day turned into a week, since I can
get very lazy about cleanup, and the liquid started changing color.  Within
another week, it had gone from a greenish haze to a shocking red color...
the color of Cherry Kool-Aid (tm).  It smelled Very skunky.  My question is,
was this color change related to sunlight reacting with the hops, or was it
something else? (Put this question in the 'just curious file.'
Sorry the short questions took so long to pose
T.J. in Austin <tjram at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>

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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 94 15:33:24 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Jim Koch BS:  A Prime Example

In HBD #1483, RON.admin at admin.creol.ucf.edu (RON) (passing along some
interesting tidbits regarding a recent tasting with our pal Jim Koch)
inadvertently gives a perfect example of why so many of us despise
JK.  Ron said, quoting JK:

>Some interesting facts:
> - Double Bock has half pound of malt per bottle.

Now, assuming Ron hasn't misinterpreted JK or made a typo, this means
that SA uses over 5 pounds of malt per gallon (assuming a "bottle" is
12 oz, which is the size I've seen SA DB sold in).  Assuming an
extract efficiency of 30 pt-gal/lb, this indicates an OG of around
1.150!!  Now, in Germany, a Doppelbock is defined as having OG between
18P and 20P (1.072-1.080).  I've tasted SA DB, and I'll guarantee you
the OG was nowhere near 1.150. Not even half that. (1.075).  

Jim Koch will say anything about his beers if he thinks it will
impress someone, or earn him more $$$.  To hell with the Truth (tm).

Kelly




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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 18:57:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Baier <BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU>
Subject: San Diego

Not sure who started the discussion of San Diego brewpubs, 
but I will joyfully add a recommendation from a recent trip.

You must go to Karl Strauss Brewery Gardens.  Strauss has another
facility downtown, with which I am not familiar.  The Brewery
Gardens is on Mira Mesa Blvd NE (?) of town.  An absolutely
wonderful place - acres of finely manicured japanese gardens, 
complete with waterfall, Koi ponds, etc.  Very scenic indeed.
Strauss was born to a German brewer father and was top dog at
Pabst for 40 years before 'retiring' to this smaller scale.  
The beers are truly outstanding - I had a 8-glass brewery
sampler with not a loser in the bunch.  Truly outstanding Pils
and lagers.  Enthusiastically recommended.  

Ever notice how the phoenetic of San Diego sounds like a frozen
waffle dropped on the beach?  (Sandy Eggo).  Sorry, couldn't
resist.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Albany NY request I posted:

Many warm thanks to the dozen of you who responded so 
quickly and completely to my query.  I will contact
each of you in due time, but wanted to publicly express
my gratitude for your help in making my upcoming business
trip beery much better.

The power of the HBD continues to amaze and impress.

Tom Baier - Tacoma, WA  -  BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU

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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 22:13:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: mkropp at BIX.com
Subject: Very old brew

I've got a very old brew (a bit over a year) sitting in a carboy.  Is there
any hope that it is bottleable AND drinkable?

/\/\ike

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Date: Sun, 24 Jul 94 00:07:50 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Phenolic aroma & Wyeast scottish ale (#1728)

I've got a barleywine/strong Scotch ale going with a combination of
this yeast and the Yeast Culture Kit Co. Scottish yeast (which may or
may not be the same yeast).  It started about 1.120, and is fermenting
at 50F. I pitched only the Wyeast culture into the primary, and in 3
weeks it took the SG down to 1.070.  So it seems to work quite well at
low (for ale) temperatures.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor

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Date: Sun, 24 Jul 94 00:34:01 EDT
From: BToddL69 at aol.com
Subject: Gook!Trub:Yeast&Heat

Salutations HBD'ers,  Last night I brewed an all grain Amber ale and all went
well.  However, this morning upon inspection i discovered a layer of
brownish-gray, thick-foamy gook floating on the top of my beer to be.  In
addition, there were several globular masses that looked like trub balls
floating in suspension.  Last night after cooling my wort, i siphoned it into
a carboy, shook the hell out of it, let the trub settle, racked the wort off
the trub layer into another carboy, shook it again, and pitched the yeast.
 In a panic, today i racked the wort yet again.  I'm guessing this gook was
trub but such as I've never seen.  What worried me more was that the yeast
seemed to be  doing very little twelve hours after pitching, as it was
trapped under this gook layer.  When i made the starter two days ago  (Wyeast
1056 Amer. Ale) i forgot to check the temp of my wort, and feared it may have
been warm enough to kill my yeasties.  The starter showed visible signs of
fermentaion, but less than what i'm accustomed to.  So i ask: 1) Was the gook
i witnessed trub?  2) Is wyeast 1056 a slow starter or did i "kill" it  3)
How much heat can your average ale yeast withstand?  4)When is it too late to
pitch another yeast if this one does not take off?    Email seems in order
for these Q's.  A worried mind thanks all in advance.  Todd Little  


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Date: 21 Jul 1994 08:14:08 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: NOTE 07/21/94 08:14:00

 Mail-order buyer beware

I just had a thourally unpleasant experience with a newer Brew
mail-order business, the 'Brew Club' in Santa Cruz.      I placed a
fairly large order which included a carbonator (CO2 fitting for a PET
bottle).   When I got the order, I noticed I'd been overcharged for
this item ($10 in catalog.. $13 on invoice)  I called to inquire and the
woman who always answers said that their supplier had raised his prices
and I could either accept it or mail it back (at my expense).  I decided
to keep it.  A week later I tried it and found it to be defective, altho
it made a wonderful beer super-soaker  :(.  I called back and she said
that the whole batch was defective and she'd send a replacement.  This
too was defective but this time when I called I was told that I would
have to return it (at my expense) to get a replacement.  I did, and when
I called a week later to confirm receipt I was told that since I'd only
returned one, that no further refunds would be given.  I told her I
wasn't aware that she'd wanted the original, at which point she began
whining about her problems with her supplier.  I suggested that if her
supplier was more important than her customer, perhaps she was in the
wrong business.  She said tough beans, and I would not get a refund.

At this point, I'm out $15 with zero recourse.  I won't be doing any
further business with this so-called 'Brew Club'.  I now realize that
once they've got your credit card #, you're pretty much at their mercy.
I've dealt with other homebrew mail-order businesses and on those rare
occasions when there were problems, they've always been professional and
customer focussed.  The moral I guess is deal with a reputable,
established dealer and not a fly-by-night shoestring operation.

| WATCH OUT !  My dogma's driving my karma on the info super-highway  |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON    JSDAWS1   415 545-0299    CUSTOMER BILLING SYSTEMS   |

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Date: 20 Jul 1994 13:43:13 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: homebrew mail-order alert

Mail-order buyer beware

I just had a thourally unpleasant experience with a newer Brew
mail-order business, the 'Brew Club' in Santa Cruz.      I placed a
fairly large order which included a carbonator (CO2 fitting for a PET
bottle).   When I got the order, I noticed I'd been overcharged for
this item ($10 in catalog.. $13 on invoice)  I called to inquire and the
woman who always answers said that their supplier had raised his prices
and I could either accept it or mail it back (at my expense).  I decided
to keep it.  A week later I tried it and found it to be defective, altho
it made a wonderful beer super-soaker  :(.  I called back and she said
that the whole batch was defective and she'd send a replacement.  This
too was defective but this time when I called I was told that I would
have to return it (at my expense) to get a replacement.  I did, and when
I called a week later to confirm receipt I was told that since I'd only
returned one, that no further refunds would be given.  I told her I
wasn't aware that she'd wanted the original, at which point she began
whining about her problems with her supplier.  I suggested that if her
supplier was more important than her customer, perhaps she was in the
wrong business.  She said tough beans, and I would not get a refund.

At this point, I'm out $15 with zero recourse.  I won't be doing any
further business with this so-called 'Brew Club'.  I now realize that
once they've got your credit card #, you're pretty much at their mercy.
I've dealt with other homebrew mail-order businesses and on those rare
occasions when there were problems, they've always been professional and
customer focussed.  The moral I guess is deal with a reputable,
established dealer and not a fly-by-night shoestring operation.

| WATCH OUT !  My dogma's driving my karma on the info super-highway  |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON    JSDAWS1   415 545-0299    CUSTOMER BILLING SYSTEMS   |

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Date: 20 Jul 1994 13:24:13 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: mail-order alert




Mail-order buyer beware

I just had a thourally unpleasant experience with a newer Brew
mail-order business, the 'Brew Club' in Santa Cruz.      I placed a
fairly large order which included a carbonator (CO2 fitting for a PET
bottle).   When I got the order, I noticed I'd been overcharged for
this item ($10 in catalog.. $13 on invoice)  I called to inquire and the
woman who always answers said that their supplier had raised his prices
and I could either accept it or mail it back (at my expense).  I decided
to keep it.  A week later I tried it and found it to be defective, altho
it made a wonderful beer super-soaker  :(.  I called back and she said
that the whole batch was defective and she'd send a replacement.  This
too was defective but this time when I called I was told that I would
have to return it (at my expense) to get a replacement.  I did, and when
I called a week later to confirm receipt I was told that since I'd only
returned one, that no further refunds would be given.  I told her I
wasn't aware that she'd wanted the original, at which point she began
whining about her problems with her supplier.  I suggested that if her
supplier was more important than her customer, perhaps she was in the
wrong business.  She said tough shit, and I would not get a refund.

At this point, I'm out $15 with zero recourse.  I won't be doing any
further business with this so-called 'Brew Club'.  I now realize that
once they've got your credit card #, you're pretty much at their mercy.
I've dealt with other homebrew mail-order businesses and on those rare
occasions when there were problems, they've always been professional and
customer focussed.  The moral I guess is deal with a reputable,
established dealer and not a fly-by-night shoestring operation.

| WATCH OUT !  My dogma's driving my karma on the info super-highway  |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON    JSDAWS1   415 545-0299    CUSTOMER BILLING SYSTEMS   |


Return to table of contents


Date: 20 Jul 1994 08:17:08 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: mail-order homebrew blues



Mail-order buyer beware

I just had a thourally unpleasant experience with a newer Brew
mail-order business, the 'Brew Club' in Santa Cruz.      I placed a
fairly large order which included a carbonator (CO2 fitting for a PET
bottle).   When I got the order, I noticed I'd been overcharged for
this item ($10 in catalog.. $13 on invoice)  I called to inquire and the
woman who always answers said that their supplier had raised his prices
and I could either accept it or mail it back (at my expense).  I decided
to keep it.  A week later I tried it and found it to be defective, altho
it made a wonderful beer super-soaker  :(.  I called back and she said
that the whole batch was defective and she'd send a replacement.  This
too was defective but this time when I called I was told that I would
have to return it (at my expense) to get a replacement.  I did, and when
I called a week later to confirm receipt I was told that since I'd only
returned one, that no further refunds would be given.  I told her I
wasn't aware that she'd wanted the original, at which point she began
whining about her problems with her supplier.  I suggested that if her
supplier was more important than her customer, perhaps she was in the
wrong business.  She said tough shit, and I would not get a refund.

At this point, I'm out $15 with zero recourse.  I won't be doing any
further business with this so-called 'Brew Club'.  I now realize that
once they've got your credit card #, you're pretty much at their mercy.
I've dealt with other homebrew mail-order businesses and on those rare
occasions when there were problems, they've always been professional and
customer focussed.  The moral I guess is deal with a reputable,
established dealer and not a fly-by-night shoestring operation.

| WATCH OUT !  My dogma's driving my karma on the info super-highway  |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON    JSDAWS1   415 545-0299    CUSTOMER BILLING SYSTEMS   |


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1484, 07/25/94