FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Kegs/Forfeiture/St. Pats (npyle)
  Keg tapping instructions.... (Jack Skeels)
  re: Phils Philler (JohnNewYrk)
  re: when to add fruit (JohnNewYrk)
  Hangover Cures (PAULDORE)
  Hops hOps hoPs hopS (berkun)
  Summary Phils Philler (todd boyce)
  Barrel size correction (todd boyce)
  Chimay yeast (Jay Lonner)
  Brewing Belgian Beers (#1): Introduction ("Phillip R. Seitz")
  St. Pat's of Texas -- Another View (Louis K. Bonham)
  AHA, Big Bucks (Jack Schmidling)
  RICO laws (Jon L. Grimes)
  Chewing Tobacco Use (PAULDORE)
  Mini-Kegs draft system. (Arturo Portnoy)
  Ceramic bottles (Guy Mason)
  Brewing Belgian Beers (#2): Belgian Ale ("Phillip Seitz")
  Homebrew Digest #1499 (Au (Bill Rust)
  Weizen Lautering ("George A. Dietrich")
  moron oxidation during fermentation (ANDY WALSH)
  RE: ..Pure Oxygen to Aerate Wort (MJones) (Chris Pittock)
  How big is a barrel? (Was Re: Phils Philler(TM)) (Tel +44 784 443167)
  London Ale Yeast (Chris Strickland)
  Rotten Veggie Smell in Beer (Chris Strickland)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 12 Aug 94 17:17:45 MDT
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: Kegs/Forfeiture/St. Pats

Adrien Glauser writes:

>   First: Do NOT/NEVER use chlorine (an acid) or any abrasive substance to

Well, chlorine is not an acid, and plastic scrubbers, which are quite
abrasive, are fine for scrubbing kegs.  Of course, "abrasive" is a relative
term.

>clean your kegs. The reason being is that chlorine will eat the keg, leaving
>small pits, and any abrasive substance will also scrape and pit the inside of
>the keg. These pits and scrapes are perfect places for bacteria and other
>stuff to hide in. Think of it being compariable to plastic fermentors. Once
>they are scratched, you might as well through them out. With steel wool,

You'd have to work *really* hard to scratch SS bad enough to create bacteria
pockets.

>small fragments break off and get stuck in the stainless and this will make
>your beer taste bad. Again, not a good thing.

>Some people did mention that you can use chlorine/bleach. The trick is to use
>a concentration that is weak enough and use a short expose time to reduce the
>time that the chlorine has to eat your keg. <- "Not with my expensive kegs
>you don't!"

I believe this reaction occurs only when the chlorine is concentrated and in
the presense of oxygen.  This occurs when the bleach solution is allowed to
air dry.  Although I don't use bleach on my SS, you're being overly cautious
about most of this stuff, IMO.  Read the article in the Fall 1994 Zymurgy by
Micah Millspaw called "The Care and Feeding of Stainless Steel".  It is
pretty good for the general brewing populus, but John Palmer could probably
take it farther.  Of course, he'd probably take it farther than some of us
might like, right John? ;-)

**

Regarding forfeiture, Gary Meier writes:

>owner.  Still, it sucks when the forfeiture laws are overzealously applied
>and innocent citizens have to waste time and money fighting it.

It gets really bad when the victim doesn't have the time and/or money to
fight it.  The government has unlimited resources, compared to you and I, so
if they want to drag it out, many people can't afford to fight the good
fight.  The lawyers win, and the government sometimes wins, but you almost
never really win.  The moral of the story is "don't get caught doing
something that's perfectly legal in the first place".  Life's a bitch, but at
least there's homebrew!

**

Guy McConnell writes in support of St. Patrick's of Texas.  I've also had
good luck with them, but I don't believe the horror stories are fabricated
for people's enjoyment.  That aside, this comment is what prompted me to
mention it:

>And their hop packaging is the best in the business in my opinion.

>From the St. Pats catalog:

>Loose whole hops don't sell because homebrewers are now well aware of the
>superior quality of hop plug packaging.

This statement strikes me as A) wrong about whole hops not selling, B) wrong
about hop plug packaging being superior, C) wrong in the implication that
hop plugs are superior, and D) wrong.  I've politely mentioned this to Lynne
via email and been ignored (she didn't ignore any other correspondence I've
had with her, BTW).  There is no reason in the world that loose hops can't be
packaged as well as hop plugs.  Plugs, being compressed, offer a storage
advantage, but that is likely to attract a shop owner much more so than a
homebrewer, wouldn't you think?  An oxygen barrier is what's important.
Anyway, I'd do business with them again, but I'm buying my hops from The Hop
Source, or HopTech, or FresHops, or anybody else that'll sell me quality
whole hops, in O2-barrier packaging.  Plugs are an alternative, nothing more.
MNSHO.

Cheers,
Norm npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com

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Date: Fri, 12 Aug 94 18:46 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Keg tapping instructions....

Hey Fellow Brewers,

Could someone please send me a how-to on puuting a drain tap in my converted
Sanke brewkettle?  Should I do an EasyMasher(tm) approach, or just wing it?

Also, if you could let me know the cost and tools.

Thanks in advance!

Jack Skeels
JSKEELS at MCIMAIL.COM

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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 94 02:57:24 EDT
From: JohnNewYrk at aol.com
Subject: re: Phils Philler

> I'd like anyone whom has used a phils philler bottle filler to
> give me there impressions on how they though it worked. Good or bad. There
> brass, more expensive etc. Do they perform better than anything else
> you've personally used, or are you disapointed?

I just used Phil's Filler for the first time and I thought it worked great.
It was a lot easier to control the flow than it had been with my plastic,
spring
loaded filler, and the fill level remains the same when you take it out, plus
less foam.  Also, the first time I used my plastic filler, it was to transfer
HOT wort to mason jars to use as yeast starters at a later date.  The hot
wort
melted (or rather bent) my plastic filler.  I can recommend Phil's filler as
it
seems as if it will last me the lifetime of more than a few plastic fillers.

<<< John >>>


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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 94 02:57:26 EDT
From: JohnNewYrk at aol.com
Subject: re: when to add fruit

STOP!! 

Don't add fruit to your primary.  Your wort is at it's most vunerable just
before fermentation begins.  Adding fruit to your wort & the dumping it all
into the primary would open up your wort to all kinds of nasties living in or
on the fruit.  Fruit is usually added to the SECONDARY, when the yeast has
already asserted itself and there's enough alcohol to discourage bacterial
infection.

<<< John >>>


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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 10:47:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: PAULDORE at delphi.com
Subject: Hangover Cures

I have read in Papazians book and another book, the title of whom escapes me
at the moment, a cure (well almost a cure) for hangovers.

Papazian says vitamin B, and the other book says massive dozes of Vitamin C.

Anyone have any input on which vitamin B? B-1, B-6, B-12..etc
and how much Vitamin C 50mg, 100mg, 250mg, 500mg, 1000mg

pauldore at delphi.com

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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 94 08:38:10 PDT
From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com
Subject: Hops hOps hoPs hopS

I have hops flowers.  Oh wow.  So when I cut them down (with a 
lopper, a very long pole with a cutting edge controlled by a rope you
pull on), do I cut each flower (I hope not!) or do I cut down the whole
bunch?  Since this is still early in the year, I understand I might
just possibly get a second batch of cones.  But will it come off the
same runner (stem?) that all the current cones are on, or will a new
one grow if I cut off the whole batch at once.

Thanks!

Ken B.
Seattle

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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 10:23:43 -0600 (MDT)
From: todd boyce <tboyce at bohemia.metronet.org>
Subject: Summary Phils Philler

	Thanks to all who e-mailed comments on my bottle filler question.
The consensus was about half and half although no one bashed the product
or said that it absolutly wasnt worth it.
Advantages:
 -Can be boiled to sanatize
 -greater control of headspace (with most saying the can accuratly get less)
 -will last forever
 -less parts to break corrode
 -less oxygenation when filling

Disadvantages:
 -sometimes does not shut off resulting in a spill and no headspace
 -can take some getting used to at first

Note:
 -Apparenlty there is a newer version that has a light spring in it to
force a shutoff. One of the advantages I was told of was that there was no
spring (gravity actuated) thus eliminating the common plastic device
problem of rusted, broken spring sanitation issues.
Most everyone mentioned buying the longer version if you used champagne
bottles.

A keg is either 32,31 or 42 gallons :>). The latest Zymurgy in a rounabout
way says 42 gallons U.S.
Todd Boyce



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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:04:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: todd boyce <tboyce at bohemia.metronet.org>
Subject: Barrel size correction

I was wrong on the 42 gallon barrel, thats oil. So if you have a 1/2 bbl.
boiling pot that holds 15.5 gallons then a bbl. is 31 gallons.

Hey, I don't need to be an "all-grainer" to figure that out. So hold off
on the flaming corrections please.
Todd boyce



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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:22:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: Chimay yeast

Hello,

Last week I brewed up my first-ever attempt at a Trappist beer.  I used 7# of
Klages, 3# of light Munich malt, and 1# of turbinado sugar.  Initial SG for 5.5
gallons of wort was 1.064.  Yesterday I racked this beer, and the SG had fallen
to 1.007!  There is still a little bit of fermentation going on in the
secondary, so I expect a terminal SG of 1.006.

The yeast was from a bottle of Chimay red that I had built up into a 2-quart
starter.  Is this yeast known for hyperattenuation?  Is it a mixed strain?  The
yeast FAQ doesn't have much to say about this yeast, and basically I am open to
any information that would broaden my awareness of this yeast's
characteristics, since I definitely plan to use it again.

BTW, the green beer tasted lovely -- fruity with that distinctive sour bite. 
The body was a little thinner than I would have liked; next time I'll run my
starch conversion rest at 155 instead of 150.  Of course, any other bits of
advice are also welcome!

Jay.

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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 94 16:20:23 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Brewing Belgian Beers (#1): Introduction

Brewing Belgian Beers (#1): Introduction

As many of you may have heard, the Washington, D.C. based club
B.U.R.P. (Brewers United for Real Potables) is planning a two-day
combined conference and contest to feature Belgian beers,
brewing, and beer culture for November 11 and 12, 1994.  This
will include the first-ever homebrew contest focussing
exclusively on Belgian beers, and it will be an AHA-sanctioned
event.  Obviously we hope that many of you will want to enter,
and within a week or so we'll announce the availability of entry
materials.  Watch this space also for some very exciting
information and announcements regarding the conference portion of
the Spirit of Belgium event and how you can join in. 

But whether you enter the contest or not, we're hoping this event will
give more people a chance to learn about Belgium's beer styles and how
to make them.  So we've prepared a series of articles for HBD that look
at six different Belgian styles, provide brewing parameters, tasting
descriptions, samples recipes, and lots of additional information.  If
you've already brewed some Belgian-style beers, perhaps this will help
you tweak your recipes or solve some problems.  If you're new to the
style, I hope we can get you started with some good information.  

The series will be divided into eight parts.  I'll send one each
day to HBD, though when they appear will be subject to the amount
of overall traffic.  The chapters will be as follows:

Part 1:   Introduction (this article)
Part 2:   Belgian ales
Part 3:   Doubles
Part 4:   Oud bruins (Flanders brown)   
Part 5:   Belgian strong ales
Part 6:   Triples
Part 7:   White beers
Part 8:   Ingredients and where to find them

By the time these have appeared I should have all the contest
entry materials ready, and will let you know how to get them.

A few notes on the upcoming posts:

1) There'll be nothing on lambics in this series.  Brewing these
is a more complex undertaking, and takes a long, long time.  If
you're interested in lambic-style beers, or in Belgian beers in
general, you should consult with the experts.  Subscribe to
Lambic Digest by sending a message to:
LAMBIC-REQUEST at LONGS.LANCE.COLOSTATE.EDU 

2) Some of the information you'll see will eventually turn out to
be wrong.  Homebrewers are still learning to brew many of these
beers, and the quality and authenticity of our brew has
increased dramatically over the past two years.  However, there's
still lots of puzzles to solve, and our Belgian brewing wisdom is
still evolving.  One reason we're having the conference and
contest is to encourage people to experiment and learn, which we
hope will get us all closer to our goal of making celestial
Belgian-style brewskis in our own homes.  So keep in mind that
the articles cover what we know now, but that things might
change.

3) You'll find some misspellings, gramatical errors, and other
literary pecadillos.  If I waited to post until everything was
perfect, we'd be looking at posting in the year 2000.

4) Steal this book.  If you think your local homebrewing club
would be interested in publishing portions of these posts in its
club newsletter, please do so.  We only ask that you not alter
the recipes, and that the brewers who provided them get full
credit for their work, and that this material not be published in a 
commercial or for-profit publication without written permission from me.  

Now, a few notes on brewing Belgian-style beers that you should keep in 
mind when you read the posts:

1) Watch your fermentation temperatures!!!  If you're brewing any
of the beers over, say, 1.060, you're definitely going to need to
keep the ambient temperature below 65F.  The stronger the beer
you make, the cooler you want to get keep it while it's
fermenting.  I have a thermostat-controlled refrigerator, and
when I'm making Belgians I usually set it at 60F.  Remember that
fermentation itself creates heat, so your beer is going to be
warmer than the room it's in, particularly if you're brewing a
strong one.  Do yourself, your friends, and your beer's judge a
favor: keep it cool while it ferments, and you'll avoid a
thousand crashing headaches.  Take if from someone who's been
there.
     In Pierre Rajotte's book, BELGIAN ALE, he mentions that some
Belgian breweries use warm fermentations.  This is true in a few
select cases, but I can guarantee your beer will be better if
you ferment it very cool.   

2) Aerate.  When fermenting strong beers the health of your yeast
is a major issue.  The little guys get real tired out when they
hit wort at 1.080, so give 'em all the help you can or you're
going to experience a lot of stuck ferments.  Many homebrew
vendors are selling aquarium pumps with in-line air filters, and
if you're serious about brewing Belgian beers you should invest
the $15-20.  Again, I can guarantee you that with 30 minutes of
aeration just after pitching, your lag times and ferments will
improve dramatically.

3) Pitching rates.  How many Frat brothers does it take to kill a
keg of Bud?  Not many, huh?  How many would it take to kill a keg
of dopplebock?  A lot more.  The same applies to yeast--when the
alchohol levels go up, they need help.  Most Belgian-style worts
are very high in gravity, and you'll need A LOT of yeast to get a
good ferment going.  Aeration helps, but count on pitching AT
LEAST 1.5 quarts of yeast into anything you brew.  For beers in
the 1.080 range, you could double that.  To avoid diluting your
beer back down to Bud range, you can often make your starters
early and let the yeast settle out.  Pour off the barm (clear
liquid), and add a pint of fresh wort just before you start to
brew.  You'll have lots of yeast wide awake and ready to go by
pitching time, and your total fluid volume will be quite small.

As always, we at BURP Labs hope you'll find the materials to
follow to be useful, and don't mind discussion or disagreement. 
We love Belgian beer, and a lot of you do, too.  Anything that
moves us toward getting more of it is to the good.  

A bientot!


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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 16:24:30
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: St. Pat's of Texas -- Another View

In HBD #1499, Guy McConnell takes umbrage at the barbs regularly
directed at St. Patrick's of Texas.  Regardless of whether or not
St. Pat's has solved the problems relating to keg shipping that
have been well-documented in the HBD, I for one won't be doing
business with them anytime soon.  

Consider the following from their latest catalog, in which they are
describing the dry ale yeasts they sell:

"Whitbread hasn't been available since '92 because of
contamination.  One batch was distributed in '93 but recalled
although at least one Texas shop (Houston) continued to sell the
recalled yeast for nearly a year. . . .  So much for incomplete
tests on nonrepresentative samples done by amateurs.  Deceptive
marketing is not science." 

These statements are indicative of either gross ignorance or a
deliberate attempt to spread falsehoods and disparage the business
of a competitor (DeFalco's of Houston, Scott Birdwell proprietor),
and either of these is enough for me to steer clear of them.  The
real facts: 

(1) Whitbread 3-strain ("old" Whitbread) was *not* recalled due to
contamination, but was simply discontinued by the distributor,
apparently due to the fact that it did not perform well in
unitanks. 

(2)  After this happened, DeFalco's had a small supply of "old"
Whitbread which it labeled and sold as such, mostly to people like
me who were specifically asking for the discontinued Whitbread
3-strain and could find it nowhere else. This stuff was definately
*not* contaminated (beyond what you'd normally expect from dried
yeast; and frankly, the batches I used it on kicked off so fast
that any nasties never had much of a chance). The ales I made from
it were very clean and typical of previous batches brewed with old
Whitbread. 

(3)  Scott Birdwell is well known to homebrewers as an honorable
businessman (he's been in the homebrew business since the 1970's),
a patron of homebrewing (he organized bringing Michael Jackson to
Houston for a tasting when MJ was in Texas earlier this year; has
served on the AHA Board of Directors for years; and provides most of
the indirect financial support for Foam Rangers' events such as the
Dixie Cup), and a friend to both his customers and even his
competitors. To make insinuations that he was knowingly selling
contaminated yeast to the homebrewing community is unquestionably
actionable at law, if Scott were the kind of businessman inclined to
sue (he's not). 

Scott has better things to do than grouse about his competitors. 
His largess notwithstanding, it'll snow in Houston in August before
any of my money ever goes to St. Pat's. 
 


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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 94 22:36 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: AHA, Big Bucks

 
 >From: npyle at hp7013.ec!e.StorTek.COM
 
 >The AHA has two basic functions: produce the magazine and produce various
 conferences, festivals, etc.
 
 You don't suppose that another basic function might be to generate a little 
 cash flow for the management?
 
 >Anyway, I keep hoping that BT will kick them in the butt enough to realize 
 they ought to start producing a better product.  Sadly though, as long as 
 circulation keeps growing, they're no4`likely to change a thing.
 
 The real problem is that the ads are growing faster than the circulation and 
 that is where the money comes from.  Frankly, I think that having 6 (or was 
 that eight on the last issue) full color covers is the height of chutzpa.
 
 I was hoping someone would bring up the mill article in the last issue but it 
 seems y'all were as bored reading it as I was.  This is a good example of 
 what is wrong with the magazine.  First of all claiming that it is a product 
 of the AHA Research Dept when, in fact, it was produced by a homebrew club 
 borders on fraud.  Secondly, anyone who has never seen any of the mills would 
 pretty much conclude after reading the article, that they are pretty much the 
 same so why not buy the cheapest one.
 
 Just for the record, I declined to participate because I didn't like the way 
 they were running it.
 
 >From: mlittle at cclinkn$raper.com
 >Subject:  All Grain System
 
 >     Grand Total                      $276.31
 
 
 That's enough to scare anyone away from all-grain.  
 
 Let me offer a few alternatives to make it a bit more affordable.
 
 Substituting an easymasher in an 8 gal enamel/steel kettle gets us
 down to $193.
 
 Substituting an immersion chiller gets us down to $160 and air cooling 
 overnight gets us to $150.
 
 Using the kitchen stove brings us to $69 which just happens to be the cost of 
 an em in a kettle.  Point being, that is all one needs to make a batch of all 
 grain beer.  As one's skill, budget and interest expands, other equipment can 
 be added but to start out spending $276 just to give it a whirl, is a bit of 
 a leap.
 
 js
 

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Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 01:13:27
From: jgrimes at danale.win.net (Jon L. Grimes)
Subject: RICO laws


In HBD 1499 Gary Meier wrote:


***On the 8/10 HBD, Glenace L. Melton posted that: "The federal
forfeiture laws allow the police to confiscate anything they wish if
they think it is involved in a violation, and they do not have to
prove the violation in court or even file a complaint." I'd like to
clarify one point, that being while the police can initially
CONFISCATE most anything they want if they think it is involved in
some kind of legal infraction, in order for them to KEEP it, they
still have to convince a court the forfeiture was valid.  The WV cop
who confiscated the homebrew was out of line, and IMO the brew would
have been returned if any sort of challenge had been raised by its
lawful owner.  Still, it sucks when the forfeiture laws are
overzealously applied and innocent citizens have to waste time and
money fighting it.****

Unfortunatly, the government CAN do this!  The way the RICO laws
work, you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.  This
wonderful violation of the constitution is brought to you by the
War On Drugs.  There has been story after story about people
losing 10's of thousand of dollars (that were involved in
completely legal business transactions) to the government.  The
only thing they were guilty of was carrying large sums of cash.  I
will cut this off here as it is rather off the topic of
homebrewing. 
                                



- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon L. Grimes                             Internet: jgrimes at danale.win.net
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
For him the cat is a symbol of everything        No one is crazy enough to
about the universe he doesn't understand.        claim the above opinions. 
                    -P.K. Dick                            <fnord>
   -Mediocrity can be a way of life... if you are good enough at it.-
          (Copyright, TM, Pat. Pend. etc, etc...Knight-Ridder)


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Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 08:53:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: PAULDORE at delphi.com
Subject: Chewing Tobacco Use

I have read a few messages about using chewing tobacco on plants to help
keep down pests.  I have a few questions concerning this issue:

How much tobacco should one use for every gallon of water?

Some people have posted that the nicotine is bad for non-smokers, I don't
understand this?  If you wash the fruits of the plant or hops in this
matter, doesn't it remove the nicotine residues? Or does the plant absorb
the nicotine, making is bad to the person who eats the plant.

I am a non-smoker, and I'm having trouble understanding how using chewing
tobacco as a pesticide can harm a non-smoker.  We are not chewing the stuff,
we are no smoking the stuff, and if we wash the plant off before usings it's
fruits, hops, veggies, like one should do using any pesticide, should all be
well?

pauldore at delphi.com

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Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 09:44:32 -0400
From: Arturo Portnoy <portna at rpi.edu>
Subject: Mini-Kegs draft system.


	I am thinking about buying a minikeg system. The brands name is
Fass Frisch or GWKent. I would like to hear your opinions, commentaries or
suggstions on the system. It seems to be reasonably priced and is such that
the minikegs will fit in the fridge. Anyways, comments will be very
appreciated.
				Arturo

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Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 09:41:13 +22305931 (EDT)
From: gam at beluga.must.com (Guy Mason)
Subject: Ceramic bottles

Greetings,

A friend just gave me two St. Sebastiaan ceramic bottles.
Alas, they were already empty. :( They have the Groelish (sic) style
attached ceramic tops.  Is there any special considerations and/or
precautions/warnings for using a ceramic bottle?

Send private E-mail and I'll post a summary.

                                _ _ 
                                O O
/---------------------------uuu--U--uuu---------------------------\
|   			     Guy Mason                            |
|   		    MUST Software International                   |
|                      E-mail : gam at must.com                      |
| Anarchy may not be the best form of government, but it's better |
| than no government at all.                                      |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/

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Date: Sun, 14 Aug 94 11:28:31 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Brewing Belgian Beers (#2): Belgian Ale

Brewing Belgian Beers (#2): Belgian ales

Description:

     1.044-1.054, 4-6% ABV, 20-30 IBU, 3.5-12 SRM
     Pale to brown.  Bitterness, hop flavor and aroma should be noticeable,
     with noble or classic types preferred.  Low to medium esters.  Low malt
     aroma, restrained caramel or toasted (biscuit) malt flavor ok.  Medium
     body.  No diacetyl, alchohol flavors, or roasted (black) malt.  Medium
     carbonation.

Keep in mind that these should be easily drinkable everyday beers, the
kind you'll have when you're planning to drink more (many more) than
one.  These are generally beers of standard strength that combine subtle
Belgian-tasting yeast flavors with noticeable hop character that is
frequently pilsner-like, leaving a pleasant lingering bitterness in the
aftertaste.  Subtlety, finesse and balance are the most important
factors.  

Unfortunately this is one of the AHA's problem categories, as there are
a few commercial examples of spiced beers that might also fall in here.
Judges should also be prepared for variations, particularly
mini-versions of stronger Belgian ales.  However, I think the original
intention was to focus on beers like DeKoninck and Vieux Temps, which
are not spiced.


Brewing Method:

Standard infusion or step mashing techniques are fine.  Most commercial
versions use pilsner malt as a base, employ protein rest, and use hops
such as Saaz, Hallertau, East Kent or Styrian Goldings, and other
classics.  Creative use of yeasts and yeast/hop combinations are good,
as long as neither predominates and all are relatively restrained.
Judicious use of small amounts of caramel malts and toasted malts such
as Victory or Biscuit malt is ok, but the body should remain light and
not very sweet or satiating; the vast majority of the grist should be
pilsner malt or light extract.


Common Problems:

1) Solvent or fusel flavors.  A change of yeast or lower fermentation
     temperature should help.

2) Needs more hops.  Subtle lingering bitterness, pleasant hop flavor and an
     enticing noble hop nose all contribute to a good example.  

4) Body too full.  These beers should not be satiating, but should be
     "poundable".  Usually a reduction in caramel malts will help solve
     this problem.


Commerical examples:

Rubens Gold, Celis Pale Bock


Sample recipe:

Todd Enders' Belgian Ale (all-grain recipe for 5 gallons)
ENDERS at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU

6.5 lbs Belgian pils malt
0.5 lbs Munich malt
0.5 lbs Caravienne (20L)
0.5 lbs wheat malt

2.0 ozs Saaz (3.1% Alpha Acid)
1.0 ozs Hallertauer (2.9%)

Brewtech CL-300 Belgian ale #1 yeast

Mash in:       	12 quarts at 132F
Protein rest:  	20 minutes at 132F
Saccrification: 60 minutes at 156F
Mash out:      	10 minutes at 170F

Sparge with 5.5 gallons at 168-170F [Note: Todd adjusts his sparge
water pH to 5.5 with lactic acid]; Boil 90 minutes.

Hopping: 3 additions, 1.0 oz Saaz at 45 minutes from the end of the
boil, 1.0 oz Saaz at 20 minutes from the end, and 1.0 oz Hallertauer at
5-10 minutes from the end.

OG: 1.045

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Date: Sun, 14 Aug 94 19:50:00 -0640
From: bill.rust at travel.com (Bill Rust)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1499 (Au


In a recent post, I read...

Fe>        While we're on the subject of Woodchuck (and you had to see this
Fe>     one coming), does anybody out there have a recipe for a good clone of
Fe>     this wonderful cider?  I made a batch of cider recently and did not
Fe>     achieve the sweet taste that I was looking for.  I have already made
Fe>
Fe>                                        brew on,
Fe>                                          md

With regards to sweetness in cider, try a lower attenuation yeast.  I'm making
a hard cider right now and I am using Montrechet yeast.  I've heard that
Epernay is even lower (Don't flame me for bad spelling, I haven't had a French
class in nearly 20 years).  Also, you might have to help by stepping up the
sugar content a bit (try brown sugar or honey, they're wonderful).

A friend and I are making a holiday cider...

        For three gallons:

        3 gallons Indian Summer apple cider (w/o pot. sorbate)
        anywhere from 3 cups to 3 pounds golden brown sugar
        a few sticks of cinamon
        1/2 tsp. yeast nutrient
        Montrechet dry yeast

        Rehydrate dry yeast with a cup of 90 deg. water and nutrient.
        Boil cider, sugar, and cinamon for 20 minutes.
        Cool to 90 degrees.
        Pitch yeast.
        Primary for 7 days, and rack to the same gallon jugs that the cider
          came in.  (we used #8 1/2 drilled corks and air locks)
        Secondary for 3-4 weeks.

        We're going to try to make it sparkling by priming with more brown
          sugar, and bottling in beer bottles.

 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | "If you go flying back through time, and you see |      BILL RUST       |
 | somebody else flying forward into the future,    |   Systems Analyst    |
 | it's probably best to avoid eye contact.         |                      |
 |                                                  |       --=_=--        |
 |                                                  |                      |
 | JACK HANDEY                                      |     Shiloh, IL       |
 | Deep Thoughts                                    | bill.rust at travel.com |
 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
- ---
 ~ SPEED 1.40 #1651 ~ Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny. - FRANK ZAPPA

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Date: 14 Aug 94 12:17:10 EDT
From: "George A. Dietrich" <74543.310 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Weizen Lautering

I've been lurking in the shadows for some time now and although I've seen just
about every subject come up I haven't seen the problem I'm having addressed.
I've been brewing all grain for about a year and never had a runoff problem
until now.  I've been trying to brew a Weizen with 3.5lbs barley malt and 6.5
lbs wheat malt.  Double decoction mashing getting good conversions.  I knew from
my research that weizens could give trouble lautering because of the high
protein content and the lack of husks for filtering.  But I just tossed out my
second batch yesterday because the mash became set to the point that I wasn't
getting any drainage at all!  I couldn't make it flow by cutting with a knife,
stirring or swearing. (Didn't think the last would work but it was worth a try)
I threw out the first batch last weekend for the same reason but I thought it
was my fault because I tried to set the filter bed too quickly.  Not so this
last one.  I did it nice and slow, the first runnings began to run really
clear...then it stopped.

I don't want to give up completely on brewing weizen because I like them so much
but this is getting expensive (using Belgian Malt) and I'm getting tired of
spending the day brewing and not having any beer.

If any of you are adept at brewing all grain wheat beers I would REALLY
appreciate some helpful hints and even tell me about your adventures in
weizen-land.  e-mail is okay and I'll summarize for the digest. TIA
GEO


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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 14:33:00 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: moron oxidation during fermentation

Phil Miller wrote:
>if aeration may cause fermentation
>activity to subside or stop altogether. I have a tight seal on top, so I
>don't think fermentation gasses are escaping. Any ideas, yonder homebrewers,
>on aeration and the problems it causes.
Algis wrote:
> aeration of post-ferment beer.  During fermentation, the addition of oxygen
> increases diacetyl production.
> However, even if you do introduce O2 during fermentation
>it will not add "wet cardboard" or sherrylike flavors.  I believe that
>sherrylike flavors are strickly a result of Hot Side Aeration (i.e. aeration
>of hot wort) whereas "wet cardboard" or papery aromas, I believe are from
>aeration of post-ferment beer.  During fermentation, the addition of oxygen
>increases diacetyl production.
Jim wrote:
>Sounds like a classic British technique.  This is commonly done in
>several Peter Austin Breweries.  Funny, the Austin systems typically
>use Ringwood yeast which is a high diacetyl producer anyway.  Some
>folks just cant enough diacetyl.  Personnaly, I dont mind some, but
>a lot of these beers push the levels way beyond what I prefer.

      According to a brewing acquaintance (Master of Brewing Science) this is 
the biggest problem in introducing oxygen into fermenting beer. He makes 
German-style lager, open fermented, at his microbrewery, and it has a high 
diacetyl component. Interestingly, he is *very* touchy when you mention his 
beer and diacetyl in the same sentence. Perhaps the open fermenter has something
to do with this? It is also interesting that Wyeast 1968 will introduce 
diacetyl even without aeration. The Wyeast notes recommend "additional aeration 
and agitation".
     Aeration will *not* cause fermentation to stop. It has, in fact, the 
opposite effect. Another professional brewing acquaintance recommended I aerate 
a stuck fermentation, as he claimed it was a "common technique in commercial 
breweries to correct slow fermentations". He claims it does not immediately 
affect the beer but reduces its keeping qualities. I think the argument is that 
the traditional cardboard character is caused by oxidation of the fusel alcohol 
nonenol to the aldehyde nonenal, which has that trait. If oxygen is introduced 
to the beer, other substances compete for the available oxygen (eg. ethanol (-> 
acetaldehyde (green apple)), reduced melanoidins, yeast) and that it takes time 
for nonenal to be produced. (comments, chemists?)
    So I added air to my stuck Tripel. This is an interesting story on the 
effects of aeration on *one* beer that I made. It appears the effects are quite 
complex and differ in different circumstances, and are certainly more complex 
than the standard cliche "aeration causes cardboard flavors" line.
    The Tripel started at 1080 and fermented down to 1030 using the 1007 German 
Ale yeast after about 3 weeks at 65F. I racked it, took the temperature down to 
55F and went on holiday. When I returned, the gravity was still 1027. It did 
not budge even after 3 months in the secondary. The beer tasted *very* clean 
but was too sweet. Then (on the above advice), I bubbled some air through it 
and agitated
the yeast cake. The gravity dropped to 1018 over the next week, after which it 
was bottled. One month later it won a local homebrew competition. As I 
remember, the beer was lowish in phenolics for such a high OG (probably helped 
by yeast strain and fermentation temperature), and seemingly low in alcohol 
strength (as a good Tripel should be). The judges made no comment on either 
diacetyl or cardboard
flavors.
     Now (6 months later), the beer is completely undrinkable! It has very 
strong sherry-like flavor, along with high solvent - fusel -alcohol characters. 
There is *still* no cardboard that I can taste, but other bad flavors are so 
predominant, this could be masked. I attribute these characteristics solely to 
the aeration during fermentaion. After just 6 months in vitro, it should be 
getting into peak condition. I regularly make strong Belgian ales and have seen 
this aging trait in this beer only.
     So my theory is that aeration during fermentation can have varying effects 
on the flavor profile, depending upon such things as yeast strain, fermentation 
temperature, exactly when it is aerated etc.. In the long term, the effect will 
be detrimental to the beer, but in the short term (eg < 2 months) the effect 
may be of benefit to aid a stuck fermentation, or if you are making English 
style beer and desire extra diacetyl. There has been a thread about bad cases 
of Fuller's ESB being around recently. Now I do not know about Fuller's brewing 
technique, but if the rumour is true and Wyeast 1968 is the Fuller's yeast, 
then perhaps Fullers aerate their wort, so bottles of Fullers have a short 
lifetime? Makes sense to me...

Andy.

PS. BTW, if I get a stuck fermentation in a high gravity beer I'll add Pasteur 
champagne yeast next time rather than aerate it. Better still to pitch with a 
decent quantity of active yeast in the first place of a suitable strain (eg. 
3944).













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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 18:00:23 EST
From: PITTOCK at RSBS8.anu.edu.au (Chris Pittock)
Subject: RE: ..Pure Oxygen to Aerate Wort (MJones)

Mark Jones asks about using pure oxygen to oxygenate the wort.  The local
brew-pub has taken to using this method of oxygenation lately (they do
approx. 500-550 litre batches of English ales).  They don't filter the O2
from the O2 tank (I don't know if they know if it's sterile or not).  
I'll ask on your behalf regarding how much oxygenation - but I would suggest
that a quick burst of pure O2 would be plenty.  (Here comes the unsupported
statements)  The O2 is wanted to get things started (getting the yeast active
and multiplying), BUT you do want the wort to become de-oxygenated so that
fermentation really kicks in.  (Is it really either/or?)  I mean:
		high [O2] -> yeast multiplying
		low  [O2] -> yeast fermenting
Over-oxygenation may just reduce the amount of sugars converted to ethanol...


			Comments/abuse welcome,  Chris.

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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 10:12:51 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: How big is a barrel? (Was Re: Phils Philler(TM))


In HBD 1498, todd boyce <tboyce at bohemia.metronet.org> wrote:
> If Mega brewerys produce 1,000,000 barrels a year or over,
> then micros must produce 1,000,000 * .000001 = 1 barrel a
> year or more. Technically speaking most homebrewer qualifie
> as microbrewers. (Unless a barrel of beer is really huge).
> So how many gallons is a barrel of beer?
 
     I'm not sure about your calculations Todd but for your
information here are some traditional British cask sizes in
Imperial gallons...
Pin = 4.5 gals., Firkin = 9 gals., Kilderkin = 18 gals.,
Barrel = 36 gals., Hogshead = 54 gals.
     There are a couple more I think (including a Tun) but
I can't remember their sizes.
Cheers,
     Brian


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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 08:16:54 -0400
From: stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov (Chris Strickland)
Subject: London Ale Yeast

I used the London Ale Yeast from WYeast this weekend to start an IPA.  After
24 hours I had no fermentation.  I pitched the yeast in the wort at around
90F like I normally do.  Usually I get fermentation from the starter pouch
in less than 12 hours.  I ended up having to drink two champagne bottles of
beer on Sunday, so I could pitch the Belguim yeast they had (since I didn't
have time to build a starter I figured two bottles would work).  The good
thing is that the beer has started fermenting this morning.  Has anyone else
used the London Ale Yeast with similiar problems?  The pouch was fully puffed
out when I pitched it, I broke the little wort pouch inside the night before.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Chris Strickland               |   Allin1: stricklandc                      |
| Systems Analyst/Statistician   |   Email : stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 08:21:10 -0400
From: stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Rotten Veggie Smell in Beer

I'm starting to pinpoint where the possible infection occurred in my Rotten
Veggie Smell.  I had started a new batch of beer in yeast cake left over
from the Bad batch (note the bad batch did not smell before bottling).  This
beer appears to be ok, I opened one after 5 days in the bottle to check and
it was ok.  So the infection must have occurred somewhere in the bottling
process.  I used DME for priming this batch, but I've done that with good
results in the past.  I clean the bottles the same way I always have, by 
washing in the dishwasher with bleach and drying on the heat dry cycle.
I sterlize the caps by pouring 200F+ water over them.   I'm at a loss where
the infection could have occurred.  Any ideas?

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Chris Strickland               |   Allin1: stricklandc                      |
| Systems Analyst/Statistician   |   Email : stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1502, 08/16/94