FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Low cost oxyegen barrier hop storage ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Wyeast London Ale (MELOTH MICHAEL S)
  Colleted Brewing Belgian files now available ("Phillip Seitz")
  Kegging question/ not in faq (Victor Franklin)
  Flaming Bacteria (COYOTE)
  Thick Decocts/ PoleStrings/ Plum & Rasberry (COYOTE)
  Learning tastes in beer (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Bug in air lock (GARBETT)
  Source for phosphoric acid (BTEditor)
  Mash/Lauter Tun and Grain Bags ("Craig Amundsen")
  Gott coolers (again) ("Charles S. Jackson")
  please add to list (CORRADINO_DEBRA/Non-HP-Exeter_om2)
  Follow up to Fuller's ESB Cloning (Larry Bristol)
  Demijohns/Belgian&BURP/Zymurgy&Mills/MaltMill/Moving2VA ("William F. Cook")
  Las Vegas (Victor Franklin)
   ("Steven D. Lefebvre")
  Woodchuck & Strongbow Ciders ("Joan Donohue" )
  Hop cones per ounce (Mike Sadul)
  Tin cookware (Jeff Benjamin)
  Dishwashing sanitizing (Philip Gravel)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 11:22:31 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject:  Low cost oxyegen barrier hop storage

I reuse glass jars with metal screw on lids to store my hops, I purge them 
with CO2 prior to closure and store them in the freezer.  Cost = $0.  

For the really anal you can nest jars, this is more practical with pellets. 
 Baby food jars and 10oz juice bottles nest well in mayo or tomato sauce 
jars.

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:41:54 -0600 (MDT)
From: MELOTH MICHAEL S <meloth at spot.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast London Ale

I have used Wyeast's London Ale liquid yeast two or three times over the 
past few months and found (1) it contributes to a wonderful ale and (2) 
it can take forever to ferment out.

As for the latter, I began a batch in mid-May in order to give me plenty 
of time before I left for Thailand (I planned to let it age while I was 
gone, thereby ensuring that I'd actually drink a whole batch _after_ it 
had aged properly rather than the usual "half-batch" resulting from 
continual "quality taste checks" every few days).  

It took nearly 18 hours for the yeast starter to bubble enough for
pitching and well over 30 hours for the primentary fermentation to really
get going (temp = 65-68F).  After about 10 days the fermentation was down
to nearly once per minute.  However, I stumbled against the carboy and
kicked up some sediment, which had the efect (apparently) of uncovering
some yeast cells and beginning a more frequent (every 30 seconds or so)
secondary fermentation.  As my other carboys were occupied, I left the
wort to ferment in a single carboy until the airlock burped once every 4+
minutes.  It did not get to that stage until early in July, more than six
weeks after pitching (I had to call a friend to bottle it while I was
gone). 

Other London Ales have also taken quite a while to ferment out, making me 
believe that it's just a slow-going strain. 

Regardless, or perhaps because of the time, this was one of the best
tasting beers I've ever tasted.  My brother, who travels all over the UK
and Europe, is a beer freak and when he visited me, he went through each
and every remaining bottle.  Like an idiot, however, I did not write down
any of the specifics and must try to reconstruct the reciepe.  When I do,
I'll pass it along. 

 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *   *   *
 Michael S. Meloth           Phone:  303-492-5204
 University of Colorado      FAX:    303-492-7090
 Campus Box 249              Internet:  meloth at spot.colorado.edu
 Boulder, CO  80309
 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *  *


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 11:58:19 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Colleted Brewing Belgian files now available

Many people have asked for the complete set of Belgian brewing posts.  
These are now available from the Lambic Digest archives.  To get 
information on the archives, send an EMPTY message with the word "Help" 
in the subject line to:

NETLIB at LONGS.LANCE.COLOSTATE.EDU

For that matter, you might also want to join Lambic Digest.  Send a 
subscription request to:

LAMBIC-REQUEST at LONGS.LANCE.COLOSTATE.EDU

Lambic Digest is devoted to the discussion of all Belgian beer styles, 
lambics among them

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:21:32 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Yakimania '94, the story concludes

The debauchery

At the end of a busy touring day, the masses 
gathered back at Hop Union only to find that 
the kegs had been moved, and it was time to 
go find them. Maps were distributed, and the 
great convoy was on, about 20 minutes out of 
town to the site of Eric's house. His 
non-fenced back yard (kid jail) was an 
orchard of apples (mostly golden and red 
delicious (I owe ya Don...) and a few winesap) 
as well as pears, which harvest was just 
finishing up as I arrived. The early birds got 
the good sites (close to the party, but away 
from the porta potties), set up tents, and 
proceeded to party. And what a party it was! 
Somebody had stopped by Levenworth on the 
way down, and collected 2 kegs of the best 
stuff. Whistling Pig wheat was very popular, 
but it was a heavily hopped brown ale type 
that got finished off first. Named Dante's 
Inferno, it was dedicated to the many 
firefighters from around the country which 
helped control the raging forest fire that 
threatened the Bavarian rip-off tourist town 
for most of the summer. There were maybe 15 
kegs of various sizes that were tasted and 
perhaps finished that night, as well as many 
fine examples of bottled potions. After all, in a 
party of your peers, with representatives of 
brew clubs from two countries, would you 
bring your bad stuff?

I crashed about 1 am. I got up at 7:30 
(officially. We won't talk about that one 
unofficial foray at mid-morning...) 
Interestingly enough, while there was plenty of 
beer and barbecue food the night before, 
nobody had planned for breakfast. Besides, it 
was a long drive home for me, so I left about 
9:30. Peter, of the R.C.M.P. did open his van 
up wide, and gave the whole camp a rousing 
tape of bag pipe music. Kinda gets the blood 
flowing...

The drive back took us through fruit stand 
country. I embarrassed myself by getting a box 
of peaches (softball sized, 26 lbs, 7.50$), a 
gallon of mint flower honey, dried apricots, 
dried cranberries (craisins, get it?), some 
cherry juice, and other stuff that I'll probably 
ruin by attempting to ferment them. Oh yeah, 
I picked up a bag of ground pears from the 
orchard (thanks Eric! I owe ya!).

Many thanks to the members of Y.E.A.S.T. for 
putting this not so little shindig together. It 
was a lot of work, but from the standpoint of 
the people that the party was thrown together 
for, it was a blast. I may not be on all the tours 
next year, but I do plan on being there for the 
party. Much fun, many friends, and a good 
time was had by all.

Or by most. A footnote to this saga. Last year, 
the Yakimania party was held the night before 
the judging of beer for entries in the Puyallup 
fair, said fair serving for most of Western 
Washington. A certain judge at that event had 
to leave Yakima to get to Puyallup (180 miles 
away on the other side of the mountains) by 
10:00 the next morning in order to get to the 
judging on time.  Last year, this person 
hopped on his motorcycle and had a nice, 
leisurely ride across the mountains, arriving in 
plenty of time to judge for the fair.

This year, this person, who for obvious reasons 
will remain nameless, but can be referred to by 
Mr. X., was entertaining revelers at the 
Yakimania party with this tale of modern 
hardship and joy. In fact, said judge was 
expected for judging duties in the Tri-Cities 
(only 80 miles away from the festivities) the 
very next day. Mr. X. got very hammered that 
night. He got up at 5:00 and decided that since 
he was already up, he might as well make the 
trip to the judging. Unfortunately, he headed 
for the wrong judging. It wasn't until 3.5 hours 
and many miles later, when Mr. X was on the 
outskirts of Puyallup, that he realized that he 
was in fact in the wrong part of the world. And 
still in no condition to do any sort of beer 
judging. He will be reminded of this sorry 
episode many times in the years to come.

Hope that you enjoyed this...

humbly submitten,
Rich Webb

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: uswnvg!vfrankl at uunet.uu.net (Victor Franklin)
Subject: Kegging question/ not in faq

Hi all!
     I have recently taken the plunge into kegging and I LOVE IT!!
however, I do have a question that I havn't been able to find the answer
to in the kegging faq.  

question(s): Is there a difference in the end flavor of the beer if I
             force carbonate vs. "natural" with dme or corn sugar? 

            How exactly would one force carbonate the beer? psi? 
            How much time would it take?

            I have read that shaking the keg to get the co2 to disolve into
            solution is bad and will flavor the beer. is this true?

   Thank-you for your help!
 
                Mr. Impatient

                     Victor Franklin
                    vfrankl at uswnvg.com


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 11:05:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Flaming Bacteria

 

Al asked 

>I've read this before and don't believe that working near a lit bunsen burner
can keep bacteria away from your plates.  Can someone explain to me why it
would?  The way I see it is the heat rising from the burner will cause upward
air currents in the general vicinity of the work.  The rising air must be
replaced -- from where?  From the other parts of the room.  I think that
the air currents will draw air (and possibly settled dust/bacteria) INTO
the work area from below and from the sides, no?  Since the flow is not
necessarily going to be laminar (it will swirl) wouldn't it just be better
to work in a small, draft-free room?
 
*  Ok, we have a little misunderstanding of the function of the burner
here.  A bunsen burner is in no way supposed to be an alternative to a
laminar flow.  It does not "sterilize" the air in any way/who/ or how.
 
The function of a flame in "asceptic technique" it to heat objects, e.g.
inoculating loops, lips of flasks...etc.  And to create "Positive airflow"
out of vessels- e.g., test tubes, flasks...etc.  Such that air IN the tube
is heated, and thusly moves out of the tube, henceforth airborn contaminants,be
they bacteria, mold, yeast,  etc.  are not able to enter the vessels, whereby
contamination is avoided.
 
(do you like me "legal/scientific" jargon?  I'm writing my thesis you know! :)
 
Additionally, when pouring plates you should tilt the flask containing molten
sterilized agar and flame the lip of the vessel gently (don't make it glow
red like a loop, just heat the surface slightly, and down the side a bit)
When a plate is poured the agar flows out from the sterile lip surface and 
drops into a plate.  Don't touch the lip to the plate.  
You can then keep the flask sideways so the drop on the lip stays
there, and does not flow down the outside collecting contaminants.
 Reflame the lip, and pour the next plate.  Thing is- DON'T stand the flask
upright between plates, flame the lip each time to keep it sterile, and keep
air moving OUT of the flask.
I stack my plates about 5 high, and pour from the bottom up.  With a
bit of practice, and a small amount of dexterity, you can manipulate the
stack pretty effectively.  
 
As for the plate itself- keep the flame away (if it's plastic!)
Us the lid of the plate as a shield from airborns, and your own brew-steched
breath!  It is the cheapest version of a sterile box you'll find!
 
Test Tubes:  Upon removing a cap, flame the upper part of the tube slightly,
NOT to heat the glass, but to move air out of the tube.  Perform transfer, or
inoculation.  Before putting cap back on tube, heat the end again.  Then cap.
The best arrangement is to hold (right handers) the inoculation loop as a 
pencil int he right hand, use the pinky of that hand to grasp cap- remove.
Hold tube in left hand. Pass through flame at appropriate time.
If you hold the cap, and DO NOT put it down on a surface, you should be able
to replace it on the tube w/o flaming the cap.
 
* Just a mini-primer from the booklet I might someday get around to putting
together on yeast culturing.  Think I should finish my thesis first!
 
As for the small draft-free room, Oh Yeah!  Take a moment to spray the air
with lysol, leave the room for a minute, then enter, close doors,windowns,
remove furry pets, and you're on your way.  Spray down working surface with
lysol or strong EtOH soln.  THEN  light burner, and do your transfers.
(probably best to remove pets before spraying room!)
 

\\//-  I'll save my sig till later.		John-  \\//--

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 11:15:02 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Thick Decocts/ PoleStrings/ Plum & Rasberry


***
Chris Wallace asked 'bout decoctions:
  
>All of my mashes have been pretty homogenous, or have had at most an
inch of liquid on top of the grain...ie. there's no discernable 'thick'
portion.  I typically use 2.7 L mash water per kg of grain (as per Fix's
"Principles of Brewing Science").  In any case, do you draw off this
'thickest' portion via a spigot at the bottom of the mash tun?  (I use
a picnic cooler as a mash tun, so that would be no problem.)  Otherwise,
if you were just scooping out the mash for your decoction, how would you
get the thickestportion?  What's the reasoning behind using a thick
decoction?
 
* Use my patented "Scoopula" (TM, copywrite 1994).  It's a specialized 
aluminum-ized vessel designed SPECIFICALLY for decoction mashing. It 
requires no special electrical, or gas service, and is unmotorizable.
 
Order catalog number 563COL.  Acme Product 2468. Call 1-800- SUC-KKER
Send $19.95 (and $50 shipping and handling) to Coyote Enterprises- a
division of ACME products.  Made in USA, under a Japanese label. 
 
It looks somewhat similar to a colander in both shape and color,  in fact
you might THINK it is indiscernable from a colander.  Fact is (trade secret!)
it IS a colander.  And yes- it is commonly made from ALUMINUM.  You might 
find ceramic on steel, or even,  yes folks...stainless steel.
 
The way to use it is you SCOOP (hence the name) a colander's full of grain
and juice from you mash.  Hold is up so most of the liquid drains out, then
toss the grainy bits in a pot and heat gently. (you can add a tad more water
to the grain before heating).
 
The function:  You want to break up starch clumps by boiling, but first you
take the decoct through a mashing episode, i.e.  Heat gently to converison
temperature, hold at conversion, then heat to a boil.  Return to main mash.
The additional starch that is "opened" up, is now made available to the
enzymes in the remaining mash.
 
As has been stated: You do not want to just take liquid and boil it.
The enzymes are soluble in the liquid.  The starch you want to get at is
still in the grains.
 
* Sorry for the previous commercial interlude.  Don't know what came over me!
 
This is my understanding of the purpose, and performance of decoctions.
Your understanding may vary, but that doesn't mean its right either!
Besides, mine makes great sense!  Plus it works for me - so BLAST YOU ALL!
 
(sinister Coyote snicker heard from somewhere behind you.  You turn and
"think" you see a shadow slink off into a corner, but you're not sure!
You are left with an eary feeling you are being watched, but cannot tell
where it's coming from.  This plagues you for the remainder of the day, 
until you return home, and crack into a homebrew, at which time relaxation
and bliss of enjoying life return to you.  Aaaaaaaaah  yes.  GLubGlubGlub)
 
 
***
Hop poles-   Sounds like someone has tried my- as yet Unpatended 
Pole-Pulley System.  I don't recall the weight rating, but I've used
1/4 " sisal rope.  I figure in a number of years it might give out,
but then I can buy more!  For several years it's worked fine.  Don't know
if I'll leave it in the pulleys over winter.  The thing I like about it is
not the splinters it can leave in your hands if you rub it lengthwise, but
rather the fact that the hops enjoy its roughness, providing them a better
gripping surface. You will note that hop vines have a directional "stickiness"
of their own, allowing them to "grab" and "hold" to a surface.
 
I would recommend a pulley over a simple hookeye or such.  I don't plan on
climbing to the top of my 20'-ers to redo me setup. (at least I hope never to!)
And with all the wind we've had lately there has been plenty of opportunity for
abbrasive action at the top of my ropes.  Friction can cause problems.
Just ask the makers of KY!   So get a pulley that is AT LEAST big enough for
your ropes, if not too big.
 
 ***
Just harvested a bush/tree worth of plums (can't remember the kind- the Mrs.
knows) and started mushing them up for mead.  It's nice to have fruits in the
garden that I can ferment.  Maybe I'll mix in some wormy apples too, just
for the fun of it!  
 
My plan, mush up fruit.  Squeeze the juice from the pulp/stones with a mesh
bag. Then add some pasteurized honey/water. Toss in some yeast.
Let that puppy RoAR!  Maybe some of those fresh-frozen rasberries too!
Unless the end up in the second half of my porter.
 
***
    Also discovered an interesting approach to juicing rasberries.
Picked up a flat of fresh ones, froze them in a zip-lock baggie.
Took it out to thaw and placed it in a bowl.  Juice flowed from the holes
in the bag, so I collected it.  Hmmmmmmmm suweeeet.  Removed the berries from
the bag and placed in the Scoopula (TM) described above (aka= Colander) and
just let the juice flow out.  

I ended up with a half gallon of clear red juice.  A bit of honey/water, 
yeast nutrient, and pitched.  Off it went.  Should be nummy!

Just to be sure I juiced the remainder and ended up with pulpy goo.
It's fermenting too (with some plums) but I think the clear juice will be
the winner!

 
Ah brewing.  SO many possibilities!
 
///\\\	The cooky- Cosmic Coyote.     SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  ||||||------
 


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Learning tastes in beer

ldent at crash.Colorado.EDU (Logan Dent) wants to learn more about tastes
in beer.  I got this off of the judge digest archives.  It is part of a
file called dr_beer  and is a list of things you can add to beer to
simulate certain beer tastes/defects.  
- ------------------------------------------------
We normally use a light relatively flavorless beer that was free of original
defects. usually Carling Black Label. It is cheap, and of the 8 or so
comparable cheap beers (why trash good stuff) it is the most defect free. The
importance of a fresh beer to doctor can not be stressed enough. Remember to
keep undoctored reference samples for side-by-side comparison during the
session.

Non-drinkable samples were made with non-food grade chemicals. If you have
access to FDA approved additives, these if added in appropriate quantities (we
make no guarantee of the toxicity of the above specified levels, you'll have to
check this out and take responsibility on your own) are probably drinkable.

You'll need one bottle of doctored beer for every few people (assume 2 to 3 oz
per person). You'll need bottle caps to recap after adding substances. All
substances should be added less than 24 hours before, except for skunky and
oxidized which need advance prep as indicated. In addition to beers for
doctoring you'll need 8 to 16 oz reference beer for each person.

Prepare samples as noted. The order listed is the serving order we've been
using I believe. The idea is to do the strongest nastiest one toward the end.
Splitting this into 2 sessions is not a bad idea as the palette can get
saturated and tired. The full range of samples takes 2-3 hours. Be sure to have
some type of plain munchy like French or Italian bread and water (hopefully not
skanky water) for palette cleansing. Basically you can proceed similar to
competitions or other tasting events.

It is a good idea to serve these blind. Let people try to guess what they are
tasting then after a minute or two tell them. Many people will pick this up.
Stress the fact that flavor perception is devoid of the additional cues like
sight that allow perceptual recognition. The idea behind doing this is to train
and refresh (strengthen) the cognitive association between sensing and being
able to assign (correctly) a descriptor to that sensation.

Feedback is encouraged. It will help us revise this program. Good Luck.

 - Jay Hersh, Steve Stroud  

hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com

snail Mail:

Jay Hersh
aka Dr. Beer
15 Dunbar Ave.
Medford, Ma. 02155

************************************************************

Original Posted 10/90
reference beer = Carling Black Label
size = 16 oz

Flavor/Aroma       Amount               Drink?     Comment
 - ------------       ------	        ------     -------
1) Alcohol     10ml pure ethanol         Y       could have used a little more,
                                                   perhaps 12-15 ml/bottle
2) Clove       10ul eugenol              N       too strong, cut in half?
3) Winey       30ml Chablis wine         Y       Fine
               (make sure it is fresh)
4) Estery      2.8ul t-Amyl Acetate      Y       OK, maybe increase 50-75%
   (banana)                                       was borderline this time
                                                 previously used .028ml which
                                                 was much too strong
5) Nutty       5 drops Almond Extract    Y       OK
6) Phenolic    4mg Phenol                N       Slightly weak, some people
                                                 couldn't detect this.
7) Buttery     5 drops butter extract    Y       OK
   (diacetyl)
8) Sulfury     30 mg Potassium           N       Good
               Metabisulfite (K2S2O5)
9) Skunky      Previously dark stored,   Y       Good
               fresh Molson in sun 3 days
10) DMS        0.08ul (made by diluting   N      OK
               50uL pure DMS to 50ml
               w/ pure ethanol, then
               adding 80ul of this to each bottle)
11) Stale    open bottles to air, recap,   Y     very light, needs more time
             heat to 100F for 10 days
12) Sour     10ml white wine vinegar        Y    Too sour, cut in half
ul - micro Liter   ml - milli Liter

Substitutes :
Cloves or allspice can be made into a liquid extract (don't add these spices
directly to beer or it will cause it to gush heavily!) and added in place of
Eugenol. 2g of allspice is recommended but I have no direct experience with
this (it sounds like way too much).

Banana extract if you can find it will be made from food grade Amyl Acetate
(just as butter extract is basically food grade diacetyl, and Almond extract is
Benzaldehyde). You can add this instead. Quantity unknown though 4-5 drops is 
my guess.

Metabisulfite tablets (Camden tablets) from a homebrew supplier can be 
substituted for Potassium Metabisulfite. These are used by winemakers to kill 
yeast. Quantity unknown.

Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 13:23:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: GARBETT at UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU
Subject: Bug in air lock

I have a little insect in my air-lock for the second time. The little
bugger either had an egg on the side of the air-lock that survives 
soaking in B-Brite or it crawled in through the tiny airhole on
top of the airlock. The thing is the insect is 10 times the diameter
of the hole it crawled in through and the only thing it had to eat was
minerals in the water.

I'm going to put it in a tiny speciman jar and try and get a biologist 
to identify it. Any ideas?


Shawn Garbett

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 14:10:07 EDT
From: BTEditor at aol.com
Subject: Source for phosphoric acid

This from a BrewingTechniques reader:

>Do you have a source for small (one to five gal) amounts of food-grade
phosphoric acid? I used hot caustic solution for brew equipment cleaning and
need to use an acid wash after the caustic cleaning.

>I also need a source for iodophor.

Can anyone help out with this?  Please e-mail directly to Allen Freeberg,
freebera at wsmr-emh91.army.mil

Thanks-stephen mallery
bteditor at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 13:13:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Craig Amundsen" <amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: Mash/Lauter Tun and Grain Bags

Hi -

  I am slowly acquiring the materials going all grain. I am currently 
constructing a mash/lauter tun. It is going to have a super-cool(tm) slotted
manifold made from CPVC (hot liquid capable PVC pipe). My question is: Do
I need to use a grain bag to prevent the husks, etc from plugging up the slots
during the sparge?

  Private reply requested unless the answer is of deemed of general interest.

 - Craig
- -- 
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Craig Amundsen              | DILBERT - Sometimes I wonder if it's ethical   |
| amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu |           to do these genetic experiments. But |
| (612) 624-2704              |           I rationalize it because it will     |
| 250 Biological Sciences     |           improve the quality of life.         |
| 1445 Gortner Avenue         | DOGBERT - What are you making?                 |
| Saint Paul, MN 55108        | DILBERT - Skunkopotamus.                       |
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+

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Date:     Wed, 24 Aug 94 13:21:44 CDT
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  Gott coolers (again)

my fellow brewers,

   In response to my recent query about Gott coolers I received the
following response.  The sender has not responded to my private e-mail
so he will remain anonymous, but it would seem that he has a point. 
What about the dead space?
   I always seemed to have better luck with a full thermos of coffe than a
half-full one.  What say yea?

Steve
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hoby AND a felony!
                                                  The Alabama Outlaw

 ----- Forwarded message # 1:

>> header stripped
>>
        Yesterday, I went out and purchased a gott ten gallon cooler for
39$, largly due to the fact that it had been discussed on the HBD, and I
figured t was the standard. What I found out later was that a 5 gallon
cooler will hold all the water and grain for a five gallon batch, as long
as your total weight on your grains does not supass twelve pounds. So, I
returned it and *got* the smaller one and used it. It sems to me that when
brewing something with say 8 lbs of grain, that there would be a lot of
empty space in that 10 gallon Gott. Empty space to keep warm, to suck the
heat out of our precious mash.

>> ----- End of forwarded messages

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 14:34:25 -0400
From: CORRADINO_DEBRA/Non-HP-Exeter_om2 at om2.ch.apollo.hp.com
Subject: please add to list

Item Subject: Text_1

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Date:         Wed, 24 Aug 94 13:26:51 CDT
From: Larry Bristol <LBRISTOL at SYSUBMC.BMC.COM>
Subject:      Follow up to Fuller's ESB Cloning

I received several excellant comments and bits of information following
the recipe I posted for cloning Fuller's ESB.  I thank everyone who
responded!  I have posted some of the information I received below.  I
cannot vouch for the authenticity of the material attributed to George
Fix and Jim Busch as it is second hand, so I'll label it as "reportedly
from" those individuals. :-)

Reportedly From George Fix:

> By the way, although Fuller's ESB is a dramatically different beer, one
> can still pick up that same "sweetness" in it. Fullers also uses flaked
> maize as an adjunct, something Laurie and I both directly observed last
> summer in London.

> Replace the sugar with 1# of flakes. (Fuller's uses a 10% charge). Scale
> up to get an OG in the mid 1.050s. I saw both East Kent and Styrian
> Golding in the brewery, but I did not see any Fuggles. They used both
> pellets and whole hops. I prefer the latter. Your IBU should wind up in
> the high 30s which is spot on. I pick up a citric/winey taste in ales like
> the one cited above using sugar. The special sweetness from the flakes
> should be evident, and easy to distinguish from the above. Save a few
> bottles of the latter for comparison.

I'm sort of surprised with the notion that Fullers ESB contains flaked maize
as an adjunct.  I have no experience with adjuncts (call me a malt purist)
but I think I'll have to investigate this a bit to decide whether this might
have a flavor impact.  I would prefer to make mine from all malt, and the
malt schedule from the recipe I posted seems to be really close.  As I
indicated originally, I think cutting back slightly will bring it a bit
closer to the OG of mid 1.050s as suggested in a few responses; the 1.060
I got is just a bit high.

>From Jim Busch:

> There is no Fuggles in ESB or any of the Fullers beers.  They use English
> Target, Challenger and Northdown.  EKG is in the finish & cask hopping of
> both Chiswick Bitter (very good bitter) and ESB.  BTW the kettle hops are
> Lupofresh( challenger, 91) pellets from Kent and Worscester.  They
> "Burtonize" the brewing water using mineral salts. A single temp infusion
> is employed. The ESB is 1.052 OG (apparently this was reduced for the US
> market, according to a brewer I was drinking with in the Pub next door).
> I was told they used to use sugar but this is no longer required with the
> new mash tuns.  I missed out on the Maize part so I do not know, but I
> assume George has this correct.  Try 5- 10 % in the mash. Skip the sugar,
> use caramel malts to get the color and sweetness.

> My notes indicate target in the kettle with northdown and challenger late
> kettle additions.  I would assume that target is a higher alpha hop than
> the others.  This is a good question for our english readers.

Again a comment about there being no fuggles at all in the genuine.  It
seems incredible to me, but I would expect these folks know whereof they
speak!  No problem - I like Kent Goldings even better than fuggles!

Source unknown:

> Fullers uses Challenger, Northdown, and Target hops in the kettle, and its
> Chiswick Bitter (1.034, 28 IBU) and ESB (1.054, 35 IBU) are dry-hopped
> with Goldings (their London Pride--1.040, 30 IBU--is not).  Marris Otter
> malts are used throughout, with mash strike temperature at 69 degrees C
> (156 F?).  Their strongest beer, Golden Pride (a very malty brew, and 9.2%
> ABV) is made from the first run-off only, while their other beers are
> sparged at 76 C (169 F?).

With this many sources indicating that the authentic hop recipe calls for
challenger, northdown, and target (for bittering) and kent goldings for
finishing, I suspect they are correct.  These bittering hops are not easily
obtained in the US (as I understand), but things are not impossible as will
be seen below.  Interestingly, I was convinced that the real thing was
probably not dry hopped, but rather used a hop-back type of processing.  I
decided to dry hop on a lark, and the first couple of pints almost convinced
me that this had been a mistake, because even the 1/4oz used seemed to give
more hop presents than in the target.  But this settled down quickly and
now I am glad to have done it.  As a curiosity question - does anyone have
any thoughts, data, or experiences to relate concerning the differences
in the hop character created by dry hopping between kegged vrs. bottled
brews?  My small number of data points seem to indicate that there is a
BIG difference.

A number of people commented on the use of centennial hops.  I will remind
everyone that I stated originally that these hops were clearly *NOT* the
variety used by Fuller's in making the genuine article.  The truth is, this
recipe was an experiment to see if the malt schedule was right (or close),
and also to see how that particular Wyeast strain would do in obtaining
the requisite sweetness/character for which ESB is known.  I just happened
to have an ounce of centennials left over from a previous batch, and they
just happened to provide the amount of HBU/IBU I thought would be correct.
I figured I could adjust the hop flavors in subsequent batches once the
other things were "settled".  Since the flavor/aroma hops used (fuggles
and kent goldings) were expected to dominate the hop character of the beer
(and they did), I did not feel like this was too big of a concession to
make.  Besides, this is a recipe to "clone" not "duplicate" Fuller's ESB.

Interestingly, the use of centennials brought out a lot of comments from
people who seem to feel strongly that bittering AA from one hop variety is
not the same as AA from another variety.  OK, I tend to agree, so don't
bother trying to convince me because you would only be "preaching to the
choir" so to speak.  However, my personal experience seems to indicate that
the differences are very subtle and probably beyond the perceptions of the
vast majority of the folks that are going to taste (or even judge) your beer.
BUT (IMHO) THIS IS ONLY GOING TO BE THE CASE where high-AA bittering hops are
used in moderation, and they are offset by sufficient quantities of "better"
flavor and aroma hops for finishing.  I have no basis for this statement
except my personal observations; I'll define "moderation" as having the
weight of the high AA hops be NO MORE than 50% of the total hops used.
(OK, I know I'm asking for it now! :-)

Domenick Venezia (venezia at FLAMES.zgi.com) (Hey! That's what the return
address read. I'm not making stuff like this up! <g>) also reported:

> I think that DeFalco's in Texas has a "British Hop Blend" that contains
> Challenger, Northdown, and Target hops.

This happens to be my local supply house and I can report that they do
indeed have such an item in inventory.  I do not know the composition of
hops in this blend, but I plan to ask Thursday (25 Aug) when I drop in to
buy the ingredients for the next batch.

HOPPY BREWING!

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Bristol      |  A true Hitchhiker
SYSUBMC.BMC.COM    |      always knows where
(713)274-7802      |      his towel is.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: 24 Aug 94 14:38:31 EDT
From: "William F. Cook" <71533.2750 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Demijohns/Belgian&BURP/Zymurgy&Mills/MaltMill/Moving2VA

I have recently acquired a 14-gallon glass demijohn which makes an
excellent primary fermenter for large batches. I cannot, however, find
a carboy brush long enough to be a useful cleaning tool. If anyone knows
where to get a *really* long carboy brush it would be helpful.

I would like to complement Mr. Seitz and the people at BURP who were
involved with the series on Belgian ales. I found it informative and
well-presented.

While I think Norm Pyle and I basically agree on the increasing uselessness
of Zymurgy, I must disagree with the notion that it is impossible to print
a useful review. There are several popular computer magazines, for example
PC Magazine, InfoWorld, and PC Week, which contain a lot of advertising and
also print some excellent and informative product reviews. I expect to have
to take a review with a grain of salt in any publication that takes
advertising, but I don't think it's naive to expect the review to be
useful. It should have been conducted in exactly the manner suggested by
Mark Stevens in HBD#1056. I should point out that Frank Dobner's comments
in HBD#1507 regarding the superior crush he feels he is getting with his
Corona sort of prove the point. If you can conclude from the review that 
the Corona leaves you with sufficiently intact husks for a good sparge, 
then the magazine has done a disservice to its readers.

Jack, thank you for your response but I think you missed my point (This is
*NOT* intended as a flame). My point was that I don't understand why the
same throughput could not be achieved with, say, 5-inch rollers, since
that's their effective length anyway. Would that not cut the cost
of the rollers in half? I don't mind over-engineering, particularly in a
consumer product, but I'm not aware of any benefit I am receiving with
10-inch rollers. I might have purchased a MM sooner (and avoided my
previous troubles) had the price been lower and the rollers shorter.

As of 10 Sept 1994, I will be residing in Williamsburg, VA. Three weeks
notice is not very much time, but I guess that's the way it goes. In
any case, I would appreciate any information regarding where to shop for
supplies, where to buy beer, what brewpubs to frequent, etc. Thanx in
advance.

Bill Cook
HydroComp, Inc.
Team Dennis Conner


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 16:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: uswnvg!vfrankl at uunet.uu.net (Victor Franklin)
Subject: Las Vegas

My buddy is getting married in Vegas next month!

Any suggestions on brew pubs or other sights we should see?

much appreciated!
                  Victor Franklin
                 vfrankl at uswnvg.com


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 22:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steven D. Lefebvre" <slefebvr at moose.uvm.edu>
Subject: 



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Date:         24 Aug 94 23:09:04 EDT
From: "Joan Donohue" <DONOHUE at darla.badm.scarolina.edu>
Subject:      Woodchuck & Strongbow Ciders

"md" wrote to HBD asking if anyone had a recipe for Woodchuck cider.
Since there were no responses, I assume noone does.  However, if
someone sent a recipe to "md" directly, then could you also send it
to me?  I also am a fan of the cider.

On a trip to Australia this summer, I found another excellent cider
called "strongbow" (?sp), which is available in sweet, draught, and
dry.  So I was wondering if any of the Australian HBD readers have a
recipe for Strongbow cider?

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 23:26:00 -0400
From: mike.sadul at canrem.com (Mike Sadul)
Subject: Hop cones per ounce

OK, so I've harvested some hops and they are drying nicely. Now, since I
don't have a scale (yet...) and probably won't have one before I brew my
next batch, how can I calculate how many hops to use for flavor and
aroma?

I still plan on using store bought hops for bittering, but I need
some kind of reference for the homegrowns.  Assuming average sized cones
(ya, ya, I know, no such thing), how many cones per ounce?  I've never
actually used full cones before, only pellets and leaves. I realize It's
not possible to be accurate, but a ballpark figure would suffice.

Hop'ing for the best,
Mike
msadul at interactiv.com

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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 22:13:37 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Tin cookware

Someone recently brought up the subject of tin-lined copper
cookware, and suggested taking off the tin coating.  I wouldn't
recommend doing that, as the tin has a reason for being there.
The following passages are taken from _On Food and Cooking:
The Science and Lore of the Kitchen_ by Harold McGee, from the
section on utensil materials:

	Copper

	...  In the kitchen, it has one thing going for it:  it's
	unmatched conductivity, which makes fast and even heating a
	simple matter.  ...It is troublesome to keep polished, because
	it has a high affinity for oxygen *and* sulfur, and forms a
	greenish coating when exposed to air....  Most important, copper
	cookware can be harmful.  Its oxide coating is sometimes porous
	and powdery, and copper ions are easily leached into food
	solutions.  They can have attractive effects:  the green color
	of cooked vegetables is improved by their presence.  But the
	human body can excrete copper in only limited amounts, and
	exessive intake can cause gastrointestinal problems and, in more
	extreme cases, liver damage.  No one will be poisoned by the
	occasional zabaglione whipped in a copper bowl, but clearly
	copper is not a good candidate for everyday cooking.  To
	overcome this major drawback, manufacturers line copper utensils
	with tin, but tin, as we shall see, has its own limitations.

	Tin

	...  Today, outside of the lined steel can, tin is generally
	found only as a nontoxic, unreactive lining in copper utensils.
	This limited role is the result of two troublesome properties:
	a low melting point, 450 F (232 C), that can be reached in
	extreme cooking procedures, and a softness that makes it very
	susceptible to wear.

As for aluminum, McGee does note that "reactive food molecules" like
acids will penetrate the metal surface and form aluminum oxides in
minute quantities.  However, I doubt that normal brewing or cooking
procedures will destroy a pot in any appreciable amount of time, unless
you leave it in the back of your fridge for two weeks :-).

It seems the traditional material for boilers, copper, is actually the
most dangerous!  McGee states, "there is no single material that is both
chemically unreactive and an excellent conductor of heat, that will
leave the food unaltered and yet heat it evenly."  So just buy what you
can afford, and stop being such worry-worts (pun intended).  We'll all
probably do more damage to our brain cells and livers from the alcohol
than from minute traces of metal in our homebrew.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 00:23 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Dishwashing sanitizing

===> Re:  dishwasher sanitation

>Could anyone out there with experience and success in cleaning or
>sanitizing bottles in a dishwasher share the technique?  While giving
>this a little thought over the last few days I've pondered a couple
>of questions:  Will Cascade (the soap, not the hops) and my
>dishwasher set on "extra hot" do the trick?  Should I soak bottles in
>a bleach solution beforehand and rinse and drip-dry in the dishwasher
>afterward?  Can I use bleach in the dishwasher as a sanitizer or does
>hot water eliminate the sanitizing qualities of the bleach (or is
>there another sanitizing agent that works well with hot water)?  Or,
>should I take my laboriously collected bottle supply (entailed
>dedicated and exhaustive consumption efforts) to the recycling center
>and buy a keg set-up?  I don't sense much interest out there so a
>private e-mail response is fine.  

I use a dishwasher to sanitize my beer bottles.  I generally rinse my
beer bottles after I drink the beer to avoid having to expend much more
effort later.  To sanitize the bottles, I load them in the dishwasher
and add 1/4 - 1/2 cup of bleach to help sanitize the bottles and kill
any bacteria that might be in the dishwasher.  I use a the heavy duty
cycle and heat drying.  Don't use dishwashing soap as any residue will
kill the head on the beer you've made.  After the dishwasher cycle is
over, I unload the bottles and put them in the beer cases upside down
until I fill them shortly thereafter.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1512, 08/27/94