FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Yeast culturing (Thomas Junier)
  Re: Yeast culturing (John DeCarlo              )
  Question about possible contamination ("Robert K. Toutkoushian")
  IBU calcs in BRF and SUDSW (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  "buldging malt cans" (Gregg Tennefoss)
  brewferm beer kits (Sean MacLennan)
  Hunter Air Stats (Gregg Tennefoss)
  Yeast Starter. ("Tomlinson, James")
  Re: Peat smoked malt (bickham)
  White ring in Mocha Jave Stout (smtplink!guym)
  Re: Rootbeer/Spiced beer (Jeff Benjamin)
  Malt / Dry Beer (npyle)
  Fermenter Geometry (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  CO2 leakage (Lee Bollard)
  Starters (Pierre Jelenc)
  Scotch vs Scottish Ale ("Charles Webster")
  Re: "Dream tun" (Jim Busch)
  peace of mind (Jay Weissler)
  dishwasher/yeast starter summary (BRCMRC.BRMAIN.MMENDENH)
  beer activities in Portland, OR? (Don)
   ("Steven D. Lefebvre")
  new brewer-bacteria (Richard_C._Peirce)
  Paulaner Salvator revisited (KWH)
  Motorizing the MaltMill (David Allison 225-5764)
  Ions: mea culpa (Nancy.Renner)
  Re: Copper Boilers (Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
  Trip report... DC (W. Mark Witherspoon)
  Adjustable Regulator for Cooker (Jim_Merrill)
  Belgian Beer Series (Aaron Shaw)
  RE: propane cookers, Fuller's ESB (Jim Dipalma)
  RE: hop plugs/St. Pats (Jim Busch)
  my religeous conversion (Iodophor) ("Anton Verhulst")
  How to pronounce Celis? (Martin Snow)
  Peat smoked malt: Good question! (Jan Holloway)
  Latest wisdom on Counterpressure Bottle Fillers (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 13:44:19 +0200
From: Thomas.Junier at igbm.unil.ch (Thomas Junier)
Subject: Re: Yeast culturing

Hi all brewers!

Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us> wrote:


>As most brewers who like the Wyeast strains, I have had trouble getting one
>packet to start fermentation in a 5 gallon batch in a reasonable amount of
>time.  I then learned that the packets are not intended to provide enough
>yeast cells to really innoculate 5 gallons and get fermentation rolling
>within 24 hours.
>
>The answer is to make a starter culture, and give the yeast a head start,
>with a target of about 400 ml of active yeast slurry for pitching.  So I
>brewed up a batch of 1.020 wort, put it in a sterile bottle, one-way valve
>on top, dark place, temp 65F or so.
>
>In about 600 ml of wort, it has taken 5 days to get just the slightest
>krausen going in the bottle, using London 1028.  What is the secret here?
>Is quality control at Wyeast really bad?  Do they send out really wimpy
>packages?  What is the story on getting these fine yeasts to start?  even
>with the package being fully expanded prior to pitching to starter it still
>seems too slow.
>

Now my $0.02 worth:
My recipe for yeast starters ist simple enough, and it works well:


For 20 - 25 l (approx. 5 gallons) of wort:

Boil 500 ml (approx. 1 pint) of tap water with 2 tbsp of ordinary sugar.
Let it cool to 30 C (86 F), keeping it sterile. Transfer to a sterile
vessel (glass is best, because you can see the froth), add the package of
yeast, and stir vigorously. Keep in a warm, dark place (like an oven set to
86 F). In 30 - 120 min, the starter should be actively hissing and bubbling
 - ready for pitching. If you're not sure, one good test is to light a match
and lower it into the vessel: if the yeasts are active, the CO2 will choke
the flame.

I prepare the starter while boiling the wort, and when the boil is over,
the starter is ready.

Hope this helps!



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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 07:55:06 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Yeast culturing

Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us> writes: 
>In about 600 ml of wort, it has taken 5 days to get just the slightest
>krausen going in the bottle, using London 1028.  What is the secret here?
>Is quality control at Wyeast really bad?  Do they send out really wimpy
>packages?  What is the story on getting these fine yeasts to start?  even
>with the package being fully expanded prior to pitching to starter it still
>seems too slow.

OK, maybe some expert out there can explain it scientifically.  However, if 
you insist on seeing a krauesen, make your starter 1.040 or higher.  I used 
some canned wort for a starter recently and it had a huge krauesen.  However, 
in my previous thirty (or however many) starters, I had never seen a krauesen 
form.  

Bottom line?  I wouldn't look for a krauesen on a 1.020 starter--maybe a few 
bubbles.  You should have something usable in a day--look for yeast slurry in 
the bottom or swirl and watch the CO2 bubble out.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 08:15:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert K. Toutkoushian" <TOUTKOUS at vx.cis.umn.edu>
Subject: Question about possible contamination

Hello fellow brewmeisters!

	I have a question concerning how to tell if your beer is
contaminated.  My neighbor says that if you tilt a bottle and the beer
leaves a line on the inside neck, then the beer is contaminated.  If
you tilt the bottle and no residue is left, then the beer is fine.

	Is there any truth to this??  I bottled a batch of beer two weeks
ago, and the beer seemed to flunk the "tilt test", but I haven't tasted it
yet so I don't know if there are any off-flavors, etc.  Does anyone have
an easy, foolproof method for detecting this that even a novice like me
could follow?  Thanks...

Rob Toutkoushian
University of Minnesota
toutkous at vx.cis.umn.edu

P.S. - It's a "zucchini beer," if that's any help ;-) ;-)

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 09:54:41 EDT
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: IBU calcs in BRF and SUDSW


I've been looking at the brewing software tools : BRF and SUDSW. They both run
on a DOS PC, BRF being non-windows and SUDSW running under MSWindows.  
Anyways, they appear to be using different equations to calculate IBUs. SUDSW 
gives a higher value.  
 eg. 10 lbs of pale malt (70% efficiency) with 1 oz 7% alpha hops (60 min boil) 
     will give 32.2 IBUs in SUDSW and 31.3 in BRF. 
     Actually, the IBUs calculated by BRF change with mashing efficiency while 
     SUDSW is constant.    
Anyone know how these are calculated and why they might be different?   
Too bad they don't account for pellets vs. whole hops.
 
Also, I tried the SUDS for DOS program but was having many problems with it 
and gave up. Anyone else been having similar problems.
 
 Zum Wohl
 
 CHuckM


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 10:13:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: "buldging malt cans"

In HBD 1510 a post mentioned using a buldging can of malt purchased at a flee
market. Swollen cans can be a sign of serious infection. I would use care in
using such a can as saving a couple bucks is not worth getting sick about.

cheers



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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 10:00:25 -0400
From: sam at gobi.toolsmiths.on.ca (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: brewferm beer kits

I was wandering through the local DeFalco's and saw that the Brewferm
beer kits where on special. I had received two of their Kriek kits for
Xmas and really liked them, so I decided to try their Scotch (Ale) kit.

However, for the Scotch and Christmas beers, the instructions say not to
add any priming sugar. Has anyone tried this? Do they rely on residual
sugar fermenting in the bottle or do they want it flat?

	Sean MacLennan
	sam at toolsmiths.on.ca
	There is no bad beer, only better!

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 10:16:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: Hunter Air Stats

For those of you in the Va/Nc Area, HQ still has some Hunter Air Stats instock.
The price is only $20.

cheers

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 10:32:00 PDT
From: "Tomlinson, James" <TomlinJa at ctls.sch.ge.com>
Subject: Yeast Starter.


IN HBD1510:
> Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
> it has taken 5 days to get just the slightest krausen going in the bottle, 

> using London 1028.

I just made a brown ale using Wyeast 1028. I used a starter of 1.040 OG (1 
quart water, 1/2 cup light DME). I never had a kruasen. The starter bubbled, 
 etc, but no krausen. I've been told, that to get a krausen on a starter, 
areate the # at !! out it and add some yeast nutrients. I've never worried 
about it.

After 1 1/2 days, I pitched the starter, at 80 F, and fermented at 68 F 
(well, maybe 62-68, we're having a bit of a cold spell). Primary 
fermentation completed last night (two days). OG was about 1.053, and I 
haven't racked to 2ndary yet (tonight). If you want more details, private 
E-mail me.

Oh yeah, shake that starter and get all the yeast up from the bottom, before 
pitching.

Jim

tomlinja at ctls.sch.ge.com

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 11:14:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Peat smoked malt


> From: Alan Pagliere <71201.1047 at compuserve.com>
> Subject: Peat smoked malt
> 
> Does anyone know where one could find malt that has been smoked with 
> peat smoke? I am a lover of single malts (especially the smokey Islay ones)
> and would like to try using some of the malt they use in some homebrews. 
 
 There has been some Hugh Baird peat smoked malt available in some places,
 but I haven't seen it in my area (or in any of the many homebrew supply
 catalogs I have).  My solution was to make my own.  I constructed a malt
 "pouch" from heavy duty stainless steel screen with the ends and sides
 held together with staples.  I can fit up to 3 pounds of malt in there,
 and it's still small enough to fit in my propane grill.  I haven't actually
 smoked the malt yet, but I plan to get the lava rocks hot and add damp
 peat moss.  Once there is a nice smoke level without much ash particles,
 I'll put in the malt and close the lid.  I also plan to use a lightly
 kilned malt so that more of the smoke phenolics can be absorbed.
 
 Scott
 
 P.S.  In my post about water a few weeks ago, I did mean temporary
 hardness.  We have much more carbonate than can be precipated out with
 the Ca and Mg ions, but preboiling the mash water really makes a
 difference in the pH of the mash water.


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 09:19:13 MDT
From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.uu.net
Subject: White ring in Mocha Jave Stout


  In HBD #1510, Gordon Cain writes:
  
  >Now, for a problem(?) I have, or think I have.  In the Digest there has
  >been much posted about infected beers.  I am a new brewer ( < one year) 
  >and have only 8-10 batches under my belt (not literally!).  I recently did 
  >another batch of my favorite brew, Mocha Java Stout, from the CM II and I 
  >have a ::::groan:::: white ring around the neck of the bottle.  Infection? 
  >Well, once refrigerated the ring disappears and the beer tastes fine.
  >So, dear HBD'ers, any ideas?
  
  Mocha Java Stout is one of my recipes and, if memory serves, I have always 
  had the same occurrence  I also notice whitish "flakes" during the ferment 
  which I have always theorized were cocoa butter from the bakers chocolate. 
  The "ring" I have noticed in my bottles seems, upon close examination, to 
  be a grouping of very small particles so I believe that it may also be 
  cocoa butter.  I have never had an off taste in this brew so I'd say this 
  is "normal" for this recipe.  The next time I brew it, I think I'll try 
  powdered, unsweetened cocoa instead of bakers chocolate to see if the 
  flake/ring phenomenon goes away.  As an aside, I have never had a head 
  retention problem with this brew in spite of using bakers chocolate and 
  apparently having cocoa butter carry over into the finished product.  By 
  the way, I'm glad you like the recipe as much as I do.
  
  --
  Guy McConnell  guym at exabyte.com  
  "All I need is a pint a day..."

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 9:59:57 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Rootbeer/Spiced beer

Would have replied directly, but my mailer chokes on the address....

> I attempted to make some Rootbeer a while back and was somewhat
> disappointed with the results.  The pressure was so great, that one of
> the plastic 2-liter bottles exploded in my brew fridge.  The ones that
> didn't blow, are very volatile (i.e.  Open it up and 75% of it shoots
> out, the remaining 25% tastes like yeast).

Using corn sugar should have made no difference; I've used both corn
and cane sugar for soda pop.  Remember that you don't let soda ferment
out completely, so the yeast will continue to ferment.  Some things to
consider so your next batch is successful:

1.  Only let the soda condition for a day or two at room temps, then
    refrigerate promptly.  The cold temps will drastically slow the
    fermentation.
2.  Use a smaller amount of yeast.  I use only 1 gram of dry yeast
    per gallon.  You only need enough yeast to carbonate sightly.
3.  Don't store for long periods of time, even in the fridge.  Drink
    it within a month or so, since it doesn keep fermenting, albeit
    slowly, at cold temps.
4.  Don't use lager yeast!  lager yeast will *not* stop fermenting in
    the fridge, and then you're in trouble.
5.  If you're using 2l PET bottles, you can slightly crack the cap
    and slowly bleed off pressure every so often before it gets out
    of hand.

And as long as I'm sending this to the digest, here's my preferred
method for making spiced beers:  simmer your spices in a quart of water
for 30-45 minutes, then add the whole mess (spices and all) to the
primary.  You don't need large amounts of spices, and some things I use
whole instead of ground, like cloves and cinnamon.  Try this mixture to
start:  3-4 whole cloves, 3 whole cinnamon sticks, 1/4 teaspoon ground
nutmeg, zest of 4 oranges.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 9:59:05 MDT
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: Malt / Dry Beer

Lee Bollard asks about:

>1. DeWolf & Cosyns
>2. Klages

DeWolf/Cosyns is a Belgian malting house, whereas Klages is a barley variety
grown in the US, so you see, you're comparing apples and oranges.  I don't
have all the facts on this, but the following table should give you an idea:

Varieties     Malting Houses
- ------------  -----------------------------------
Klages        Minnesota Malting (US)
Harrington    Great Western Malting (US? Canada?)
              Hugh Baird (UK)
              Maris Otter (UK)
              DeWolf/Cosyns (Belgium)
                   
This table does NOT mean to imply that Minn. Malting malts Klages and that GW
malts Harrington (although they might).  I'm just pointing out some of the
names to know.  There's another big Belgian maltster whose name escapes me,
and probably lots of others I'm forgetting, but I'm sure there's a lot of
smart guys out there who'll fix me up.  Also, I don't know the names of any
of the European barley varieties, either.  This sort of thing would be quite
good in the Malt FAQ I think (John, are you listening?).

**

Terry Terfinko writes about his beers drying out more than desired.  I have
had this problem from time to time, but only as the beers age for months, not
weeks.  I think this is a very low grade infection (many infections do not
cause obvious off-flavors) of bacteria.  The bacteria breaks down some of the
complex sugars and the yeast slowly ferments them out.  I believe this
mechanism is less likely to cause off-flavors than if the bacteria did the
whole job.  I'm no microbiologist, but I don't think mold is the culprit.  A
high population of mold probably indicates high populations of other buggers
that aren't published in the local news.  Also, the tricksters could be in
your water as well as your air, so keep that in mind.

Cheers,
Norm npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com

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Date: 25 Aug 94 16:13:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Fermenter Geometry

Sorry about having to post this, but I've lost Scott's address and in
fact this may be of general interest anyway:

Al>>> "One more word of caution regarding using Cornelius kegs to ferment.  
Al>>> Standing up, they are tall and narrow, which, according to George Fix 
Al>>> and Jean DeKlerck, is a poor geometry for a fermenter.  Some yeasts do 
Al>>> very poorly in this fermenter geometry and...

Scott>> This strikes me as an extrapolated comment.  Are DeKlerck and Fix 
Scott>> perhaps referring to much larger systems?  
 
George Fix> In fact, it is just the opposite, and indeed these effects seem
GF>         to be the most significant for small systems. DeClerck did most
GF>         of his work on his liter sized lab system (see e.g. the references
GF>         quoted in Textbook of Brewing, Vol. 1)
 


Scott>> It makes sense to me that
Scott>> DEPTH could influence the fermenting process, but I can't imagine that
Scott>> yeast know anything about aspect ratios of the container.  I don't think
Scott>> that the vessels chosen by homebrewers run a risk of being too deep.
 
GF> I feel this depends very much on the yeast strain used. For example,
GF> W-34/70 makes much better beer when fermented in a squat 1/4 bbl.
GF> pony keg than it does in a Cornelius keg. The effects are striking
GF> and include fermentation times (7-8 days vs. 18-21 days), longer
GF> lag times (4-6 hrs vs. 24-36 hrs.), and higher end point diacetyl
GF> levels. On the other hand, strains like St. Louis lager (aka A-B
GF> lager) do not seem to be affected as much.
 
GF> Tall low surface area/depth fermenters are a commercial reality
GF> simply because vertical space is often much cheaper than horizontal
GF> space.  In such systems one has to be very careful about the yeast
GF> used. This point gets replayed over and over.

GF> The data on W-34/70 refers to fermentations at this strain's
GF> optimal temperature; i.e., 48F.

GF> I cited only lager yeast, but the same issues apply to
GF> ale strains as well. A striking case is the new single strain
GF> Whitbread yeast. It has been trashed because of poor attenuation and
GF> flocculation in tall unis. I have this yeast on slants and use it
GF> for brown ales (but never in a soda keg!). Celis uses the same
GF> strain for their "pale bock", but they have conventional fermenters.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 9:17:35 PDT
From: Lee Bollard <bollard at spk.hp.com>
Subject: CO2 leakage

I'm getting leakage at the connection of my regulator to the CO2
cylinder.  

1. I assume I am to use the fiber washer I found attached to my cylinder
when it returned from being filled?

2. Do I need to really bear down on the tightening nut?  (I didn't have
the proper tool for this yesterday.. gotta buy a 1-1/8" wrench)

3. Should I use Teflon tape on the threads?

Related question:  The flare fittings on my hose connections don't have
washers.  I've seen flare fitting nylon washers in catalogs.  Are these
really necessary?  TIA.

Regards,

Lee Bollard
bollard at spk.hp.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 13:28:18 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Starters

In HBD 1510, Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us> asks about starters:

> So I brewed up a batch of 1.020 wort, put it in a sterile bottle,
> one-way valve on top, dark place, temp 65F or so. [... ] In about 600 ml
> of wort, it has taken 5 days to get just the slightest krausen going in
> the bottle, using London 1028.

The problem is that this is not a starter, but a mini beer. A starter
should NOT ferment, but grow aerobically; get rid of that air lock, in
fact get rid of that bottle as well: make your starter at the bottom of
your primary fermenter, where you will get a huge surface/volume ratio.

Splash it around regularly, and do not close the fermenter: Use a loose
plug of sterile cotton for a carboy, or a freshly boiled kitchen towel
for a bucket. That way, all the sugar is used to make more yeast, not to
make alcohol.

Pierre




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Date: 25 Aug 1994 08:41:54 -0800
From: "Charles Webster" <Charles_Webster at macmail.lbl.gov>
Subject: Scotch vs Scottish Ale

                       Subject:                               Time:8:28 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Scotch vs Scottish Ale                 Date:8/25/94
I have recently encountered confilicting definitions of Scotch Ale and Scottish
Ale. An old AHA style guide defines Scotch Ale as a French or Belgian Ale of
medium gravity, amber color, low hop bitterness, malt flavor predominates.
Someone else told me that Scotch Ales were closer to lagers than to ales(?).
Eckhard's Style Guide lists Scottish Ales as a sub-category or old or strong
english ales, having a smoky character from peated malt. But doesn't list a
scotch ale.

Where does this put 60/, 70/, etc. and "wee heavy?"

replies by e-mail and I'll summarize.

Thanks in advance
Charlie Webster
CLWebster at lbl.gov
no cute quote



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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 15:00:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: "Dream tun"

Norm writes:
> Subject: Dream Tun
> 
> Large dial thermometer on front

Be careful to use short stem into the tun, I have a 15.5 gal kettle
that I use for small beers that has one of these temp probes that
sticks in about 4 inches into the tun.  A major pain to stir fast
with a paddle since it gets knocked into all the time.  Im even
going to remove it and plug the damn hole.
> 
> Slotted pipe manifold for outlet
> 
> My scrounging skills are improving and most of this stuff was free or pretty
> darn cheap.  I decided against putting a sight tube in it because I didn't
> think it would help much and I'd have to come up with a way to keep grains
> out of it.  It would also add to the cleanup chore.  I may try to use the
> sanke fitting as the drain (invert the keg and cut out the bottom).  If I
> do this I would think a false bottom would be better than a manifold, but
> then I'd have to add back in a manifold for my future upgrade:  steam
> injection.  An easymasher style manifold might do the trick for this too.

Sight tubes are nice to have, but by no means a requirement.  They
are pretty easy to make, though.  What you can do is rig a T off a
ferrule, run a plastic tube/plexiglass tube up the side of the
tun.  This will provide a visual indicator of the liquid level in the
mash tun, which can be useful during lautering.  This setup is much
easier to employ with a false bottom, and if you intend to do a
RIMS someday, a false bottom may be a good investment. 

I assume you dont ever want to direct fire this thing?

> >Brugse Tripel (9.5% ABV), Affligem Tripel (9% ABV),
> >Grimbergen Tripel (8.13% ABV), Steenbrugge Tripel (9% ABV)
> 
> Must be a temporary lapse in concentration on Phil's part.  I'm sure
> he meant to include Westmalle Tripel (the original, and in my opinion
> finest, tripel) in the list of commercial examples.  After several
> years of not being imported, this four-star beer (MJ) has again begun
> to be imorted into the US.  Yay!

I cant remember how Phil feels about this, but I think Brugse Tripel
is even *better* than Westmalle, especially since we can get it 
in the DC area. 

A comment on yields in mashing.  I have been having excellent
results using Munton & Fison Pale Ale Malt and DeWolf Cosyns
Pale Ale Malt and a 60 min rest at 152F, followed by a 10 min
rest at 170F.  Both of these base malts are wonderful to use,
give rich malty results and lauter easy.  They also seem to
yield 31-32 pts/lb/gal in my system.  

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 14:04:29 -0500
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: peace of mind

 Darren says
>Upon reading this I've decided to return my aluminum pot and pick up  
>an enamel-coated stainless steel pot.  The way I figure it, I'd  
>rather have the peace of mind.

Not to mess with your peace of mind Darren, but apparently some  
manufactures may use antimony, cadmium or lead to bond the enamel to  
the steel. These may be exposed if the pot gets cracked or chipped.  
Steve Prentise of the Illinois Restaurant Association (and prizing  
winning pepper homebrew) recommends that you ask the manufacture  
about the pot's saftey if it develops cracks or chips.

BTW, thanks for the pointer to the Corning outlet, it's just up the  
road.

jayw

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 11:15:28 -0700
From: BRCMRC.BRMAIN.MMENDENH at EMAIL.STATE.UT.US
Subject:  dishwasher/yeast starter summary

I recently posted a request for information on (1) sanitizing bottles
in an automatic dishwasher; and, (2) the preferred method for using
yeast starters, and received a deluge of suggestions (mostly about
the dishwasher).  Thanks to all those who replied. Because I received
some requests to pass along the information I've decided to post a
summary, but due to the volume of responses I'll pass on the personal
credits.  A distillation of the responses suggests the following
dishwasher method is most used:

Step (1):  Thoroughly clean bottles as soon as possible after
emptying them of beer and store for later use in a covered container
(to shelter the bottles from dust and other unwanteds). 
Step (2):  Load the clean bottles into the dishwasher and run a
heated wash and rinse cycle without any sanitizer or soap (the soap
inhibits the beer's head and may produce off-flavors) followed by a
heated dry cycle.  Apparently, it's the steam that's produced during
the dry cycle that sanitizes the bottles.  To not upset the yeast,
allow the bottles to cool before filling with beer.  Some suggested
using the dishwasher door as a bottling table (useful for catching
spills).  

There are some variations practiced out there:  A couple of
respondents did use dishwasher soap but followed up with a 2nd wash
and rinse cycle *without* soap to eliminate any residue.  Some
suggested running the dishwasher through a wash-rinse cycle *before*
loading it with bottles to thoroughly clean the interior and to
ensure no bits of food from the last dish washing cycle get sprayed
up into the bottles.  Another suggested cleaning any food scraps from
the drain screen before proceeding.  Some added 1/2 c or so of bleach
or B-brite at the beggining of the wash cycle or a few minutes into
the cycle but most added nothing.  A couple of caveats:  Don't put
bottles with labels attached into the dishwasher; the label will
disintegrate and little bits will be sprayed into the bottles.  And,
remove any drying agent from the washer (that little cylindrical
white plastic basket that my SO hangs on the top rack).    

On yeast starters, two respondents' preferred method was to pitch
just the slurry after flocculation although one had pitched both at
high krausen and after flocculation and didn't see much difference in
the end results.  Another had pitched the entire starter volume
before any visible signs of activity and had good results.  From
these responses there appears to be some latitude with starter
techniques. 

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

*****************************************************************
Michael Mendenhall
"mmendenh at email.state.ut"


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 14:23:19 -0600
From: Don <db255681 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: beer activities in Portland, OR?


I'm going to Portland for Labor Day weekend.  I'll of course
need some good beer there and seek advice on where to find it.
Any other brewing events?  Please e-mail.

 -D

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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 16:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steven D. Lefebvre" <slefebvr at moose.uvm.edu>
Subject: 



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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 14:32:43 EST
From: Richard_C._Peirce at magic-bbs.corp.apple.com
Subject: new brewer-bacteria

I have just finished my first brew and I think something went wrong.  At
each step throughout the brewing process I have been tasting the beer to
get a feel for the whole thing.  After it had been in the primary fermenter
for a couple of days, I couldn't believe how incredibly good the beer
tasted.  I was really amazed.  I thought the taste would not be there so
quickly.  

Then I went to a secondary fermenter and that is where I think my beer took
a turn for the worse.  Towards the end of the secondary (about 2 weeks) I
sampled the beer and this time it had taken on a very bitter taste.  I was
a bit worried but someone told me that this is normal so I continued on and
bottled the beer.  

Right now, my beer has been in the bottles for about 2 weeks.  It is fairly
clear but there has been sediment (bacteria or something?) forming on the
surface of the beer in each bottle.  I tried some of the beer a couple of
days ago. It had not carbonated yet and still had a very bitter taste.

Is my beer history?  What could I have done to cause the problem?  I was
fairly careful about sanitizing!  The only thing I can think of is the fact
that I topped up the secondary with mineral water from a bottle that was
previously opened.  Should I have boiled this water befor topping up?  I
want to try again but I really want to drink some beer insted of pouring it
down the drain.  Meanwhile, I guess I'll be going back to the beer store.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions - Richard.

Richard_Peirce at magic-bbs.corp.apple.com (before September 15)
Richard_Peirce at magic.ca (after September 15)




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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 16:21
From: KWH at roadnet.ups.com (KWH)
Subject: Paulaner Salvator revisited

At the suggestion of a fellow brewer, I tried my first Paulaner Salvator 
the other day.  Needless to say, I fell in love and was inspired to emulate 
it in an upcoming brew.  After researching the archives, I found this 
posting:

>Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 10:21:51 -0500 (CDT)
>From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
>Subject: paulaner salvator ideas

>It's a great beer, and so is Spaten Optimator.  The premier issue
>of Brewing Techniques has an article by Darryl Richman where he
>describes the thinking that went into his first place Bock.  The
>recipe for the beer appeared in Zymurgy.  I don't remember the
>exact amounts, but based on his article and some bocks I've made,
>I'd suggest lots of Munich malt and some Aromatic malt too.  If
>I remember correctly, Darryl used no pale malt.
 .......(stuff deleted)..........
>The starting gravity for your doppelbock should be 1.076.  Hops should
>be multiple additions of Hallertauer.  Yeast should be a good liquid
>lager yeast such as Wyeast "Bavarian" lager.
 .......(more stuff deleted).....

I then found this recipe in the Cat's Meow that seemed to follow this 
suggestion:

>                             Bock Aasswards

>Source:   Darryl Richman (darryl at ism.isc.com)
>          Issue #620, 4/22/91

>Ingredients (for 15 gallons):

>          24 pounds, Munich malt
>          6 pounds, Vienna malt
>          6 pounds, 2 row Klages malt
>          1--1/2 pounds, 80L Crystal malt
>          200 grams, Hallertaur pellets
>          Bavarian style yeast

>Procedure:

>Treat 10.5  gallons  of  medium hard  water  with  18 grams  of  Calcium
>Bicarbonate. Mash in grain.  Follow a mash program of 50 minutes at 50C,
>20 minutes at 58C, 40 minutes at 65C, 90 minutes at 70C,  and a mash off
>for 15 minutes at  77C. Sparge for about  an hour and a  half. This will
>yield about 19 gallons at the end. (runoff gravity of about 1.010). Boil
>down to a volume of 15  gallons (about 3 hours and 20  minutes.) Add 200
>grams of Hallertaur pellets about 2 hours into the  boil. Cool and pitch
>yeast.

>Specifics:

>O.G.: 1.075
>F.G.: 1.022
>Primary Ferment: 3 weeks at 48 degrees
>Secondary Ferment: 6 weeks at 36 degrees

Does anyone have any comments and/or suggestions about this recipe or other 
possible approaches to emulating Salvator?  Will this recipe get me in the 
general neighborhood?  It seems like a pretty intensive brew day with that 
long of a boil time, but I suppose that is what it will take to get that OG 
from an all-grain brew.  Could I get away with a partial mash and add a few 
pounds of Laaglander DME for body and residual sweetness?  I know this is 
bock-heresy, but I was thinking about using Wyeast 1338 European Ale yeast 
since it finishes very, very malty, and lagering is a royal pain with my 
current setup.

Any comments or ideas would be very welcome, public or private.

Kirk Harralson
kwh at roadnet.ups.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 16:50:00 -0800 (PST)
From: David Allison 225-5764 <ALLISON.DAVID at A1GW.GENE.COM>
Subject: Motorizing the MaltMill


I am interested in motorizing my adjustable MaltMill with a motor that sits 
on the platform and drives the roller using a belt and pulleys.  Any 
suggestions for doing this?  I am interested in the type of motor to use 
and the size of the pulleys necessary to run it at an optimal RPM.  I have 
access to a Grainger catalog -- if anyone could supply me with a type or a 
part number.  TIA

 - David




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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 21:19:42 EDT
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Ions: mea culpa

 From *Jeff* Renner 
 
In my recent post on water hardness, I said: 
 
>Other cations (negatively charged) are present, such as sulfates, 
>which we like for their effect on the bitterness of ales. 
 
As Brian Walter gently pointed out, cations are positively charged.  I 
should have said "Other anions (negatively charged ions) etc."  Everyone 
please correct your archival copies. ;-) 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 11:52:46 EST
From: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Copper Boilers
Full-Name: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen

John Palmer wrote:

| It was most likely plated with Tin, which is not good for brewing. The copper
| is fine, but you need to get the Tin out of there. Aidan-the-Kloset-Kiwi had
| the same problem and I recommended dissolving the tin out using salt water and
| a battery. White Distilled Vinegar would probably work too. How did it work 
| for you, Aidan?

OH THE SHAME!

This is where I grovel and admit that I haven't tried it yet!

I have been busy ....  ummmm ...  haven't got the rest of my 
all-grain set-up going yet ..  ummm ...  sorry.  I will try it, 
and I am most grateful for the advice.  

When I do get it all set up (and my kegging as well) I will post 
cost summary - just so I can crow about it!  We could turn it 
into a childish competition!  OH JOY!  

Aidan

P.S.  There is nothing closet about me ...  I am a KIWI and proud 
of it!  

- --
Aidan Heerdegen				
e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au


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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 07:57:59 +0500
From: mwithers at hannibal.atl.ge.com (W. Mark Witherspoon)
Subject: Trip report... DC

I was able to go to only one location in the DC area... Brickstellars.

Nice place, the decor...  looks like a brewing museum.  I spotted cans
and bottles that I remember seeing as a kid.  The menu, it lists over
500 beers, but my guess that they only have 375-400 in stock at any
one time.

What I had was:
	Celis Grand Cru - Wonderful beer.  Heavy body, light color
				nice spicy aroma, corriander/ester
				taste.
	Sarnac Black and Tan - Nice light dinner beer.  Medium body,
				dark near black color, almost porter
				like but has stout overtones.
	Sierra Nevada Porter - Exellent Dinner Porter.  Medium/med Heavy
				body.  Dark/black color.  No burnt 
				overtones, smooth.

Why my new friend (now looking to be a HB'er too):
	SA Honey Porter - I have had this at the Philly SA Brew Pub. Medium
				body. Dark, Slighly sweet.  Honey after
				taste.
	Dominion Mellenium - Heavy Doplebock.  Lactose intense odor - 
				sour milk smell, milk sweet.  Bottle date
				Feb 10, 1994 - near death date
	???

Food was around $8.00 each.  The beers have a cost range on the menu from
2.95/bottle to $35.00/bottle.  They do have some of the most rarest (from
reading from you guys) beers in the world (Thomas Hardy 1988/1989).  

Here are the directions (I called to get them, the postings I have gotten
are wrong).  In DC take the RED line toward Shady Grove.  Get off at the
DuPont Circle.  Take the Q street north exit.  This will get you at 21st
street and Q street.  Take Q street up to 22nd.  Turn left, follow 22nd 
street 500 or so feet.  There it is, mid block between P & Q on 22nd street.

Mark Witherspoon


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Date:           Fri, 26 Aug 94 8:18 EDT
From: Jim_Merrill at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Adjustable Regulator for Cooker

I just ordered the burner portion of a cajun style
cooker from Metal Fusion. (It was posted on the net some time
ago. The price is $15.50 + shipping. Model "WKAF 1", 170,000 btu.
Their number is 800 783-3885.)

I wanted to buy an adjustable regulator for it but they don't
sell them any more.

Does anyone have a source for an adjustable regulator ?
(Mail order or MA or NH areas)

Can I use a standard gas grill regulator and run it through
some type of brass valve to control the flame ?

Or is there a special requirement, with regards to the regulator,
for burners with this high of a btu rating ?

TIA,           "No Credentials Required  :^)"

Jim Merrill
Jim_Merrill at VOS.Stratus.Com

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:02:30 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Belgian Beer Series

     Someone inquired about Phil Seitz' series on Belgian beers,
well it is archived. Send E-mail to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
with the message "HELP", then request the index.
     I have not yet accessed, so I do not know if ti is easily found.
I just heard about it from the Lambic Digest.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 10:01:26 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: propane cookers, Fuller's ESB


    Hi All,

    In HBD#1511, Guy McConnell asks about propane cookers.

>Are there any
>cookers available upon which these converted kegs will sit safely.  I've
>been eyeballing a few at the local hardware stores (Home Depot, Lowe's,
>etc.) and they look like the support ring is about the same diameter as the
>base of the keg.  Not a pleasant thought when the kettle is filled with
>boiling wort.

    I use a 1/2 bbl Sankey as a brewpot, and a 200K BTU King Kooker made
by Metal Fusion in Kenner, LA, 1-800-783-3885. There are two models of this
type, one with three cross members welded to the support ring, the other
with six. I have the one with six, and have never had a problem.
    I believe the cooker Guy refers to is a 165K BTU multi-jet model made
by Brinkman. A fellow club member checked this model out, and told me that
it's support ring is exactly the same diameter as a Sankey keg. It's easy to
imagine the disaster that would result if one happened to bump the keg or the
stand while it was full of boiling wort. He took a pass on that model.

************************

    Brian Gowland provides some info on Fuller's ESB:

>     The published information states that Fuller's use Pale
>malt, Crystal malt, Flaked maize and Caramel for colour. The
>hops are Challenger, Goldings and Target. Bitterness is 35
>IBU. OG is 1053 and A.B.V. is 5.5%.
>     I don't have any information on ratios of the ingredients
>and haven't tried to clone the recipe myself so can't make
>any further suggestions. The only thing I dislike about Fuller's
>is that they use caramel for colour - I would substitute with a
>small quantity of Chocolate malt

    I've made a few attempts to clone Fuller's ESB, it's one of my favorite
commercial beers. I've found that using flaked maize as ~8% of the grain bill
produces that smooth, slightly grainy sweetness in just about the right
proportion.
    I've had no success in getting the color dark enough, despite a fair
amount of 70L crystal. I wasn't aware they used caramel. Thanks for the
tip, Brian.

    Cheers,
     Jim          dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:50:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: hop plugs/St. Pats

stpats at bga.com writes:

> form."  St. Pat's has been warning brewers for months about hop plugs 
> that are not good because they are not packaged properly.

Hop plugs made by Morris Hanbury, in Yakima, Wa are packaged extremely
well.  Homebrewers who want high quality imported plugs can order
direct from Morris Hanbury and avoid dealing with homebrew shops
who claim that plugs are a bad way to go.  If you dont like what a
shop claims, and you're tired of paying retail prices, buy well
packaged hops in bulk and store them in your freezer.  The mark 
up on retail hops is one of the main rip offs in the homebrew supply
industry.  Also be aware that a certain wholesale supplier is now 
advertising full page ads in BT with extremely reasonable prices on
D/C malts and whole hops. 

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 11:43:49 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: my religeous conversion (Iodophor)


After a decade of using bleach as a sanitizer I have switched to Iodophor -
and I like it.

The trigger event was a hole in an (el cheapo) stainless steel pot.  I used to
put a bleach solution in it to sanitize airlocks and hoses for a half hour
or so - but sometimes I forgot and it turned into several hours.
Anyway.... If bleach can do this to the pot, what is it doing to my 5 corny
kegs?  So I switched to Iodophor.

What do I like about Iodophor:

	I no longer have to be careful about getting sanitizer on my clothes.

	I can leave Iodophor in unused cornelius kegs so that they are
	ready for use immediately.

	Super rinsing is no longer needed.  After sanitizing with bleach,
	I rinsed my equipment several times with sterile water in order to
	remove all traces of clorine.  Now one single rinse is all I use
	(I know you don't HAVE TO rinse Iodophor - but I insist).

	I don't worry if the sanitizing solution is strong enough or not.
	If you can see the Iodophor color in the solution, it's good enough.

The only disadvantage is that, in strong concentration, some plastic equipment
picks up the Iodophor color if you leave it for a long time (big deal).


- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 15:46:30 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martin Snow <SNOW at lyrae.colorado.edu>
Subject: How to pronounce Celis?

Now that I've tasted Celis White and Grand Cru, I guess it's time to pronounce
them correctly.  Is "Celis" pronounced like "say-lee" or "sell-iss" or 
"Kell-eas" or something else?

Thanks,
Martin Snow


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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:47:45 -0500
From: holloway at ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu (Jan Holloway)
Subject: Peat smoked malt: Good question!

On August 22 Alan Pagliere asked the Digest if anyone knew of a source for
peat-smoked malt to use in brewing.

Good question! We, too, as lovers of smoky single-malts, have been
searching for suppliers of peat-smoked malt. In desperation, and with a
sort of comic air, we bought some local peat, smoked it, and tried to toast
malt in the oven with the "smoked peat," but as you can imagine, nothing
came of it except some smoke and some laughs. 

So if anyone has news, please post to the Digest.  Thanks! 

Jan Holloway
holloway at indiana.edu


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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:03:56 -0800
From: mfetzer at ucsd.edu (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Latest wisdom on Counterpressure Bottle Fillers

What is the latest view on who makes the best one? I think at one time we
had all agreed it was BMP. Is that still so, if so, how can I reach them?
They've not advertised in the last issues of Zymurgy and Brewing
Techinques.

Please reply via e-mail, I will summarize.

Mike


- --
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1513, 08/30/94