FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Cider recipe (MR_SPOCK)
  San diego brew pubs (steve.siegel)
  Re: Benefits of Blow off Hose (Jim Grady)
  Drying Hops (John DeCarlo              )
  Re: Autumn/Weather/Cleveland (Tel +44 784 443167)
  Ofest style and G. Fix's book (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  Carboy breaks (Jim Blue)
  Re: Yeast popsicles / Babes (R. Keith Frank, DCR&D, 409-238-9880)
  Re: Carboy Carriers (Charles Anderson)
  Re: carboy carriers ("Mr. Dudley")
  Professional brewers/SS boil tun's (Gordon Baldwin)
  Geneva Beers (RLANCASTER)
  The 'Drying Hops' Thread (Richard A Childers)
  carboy handles (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  MLD (re: need mead) (Dick Dunn)
  Re: carboy breaks (Dave Coombs)
  Hawaii Brew Info (Mike_ONeil)
  question about pilsner enzyme (Marvin Crippen)
  Trub Removal Bleus (that's French!) (Jeff Frane)
  Brewing Studies ("pratte")
  Carboy Stories.... (keith.prader)
  Nutty beer (Cree-ee-py Boy)
  Bulk Malt Extract Summary (00bkpickeril)
  British Brown Malt (Yeastbud)
  Re: Adding Specialty Grains (Reanimator)
  Lazy Brewers/People (DATADUMP)
  Re: Auto Sparger... (Tel +44 784 443167)
  Cracking Erlenmeyers ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Re: Temperature control for refrigerator (Keith Frank)
  HDPE (Glenn Anderson)
  Celis article (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Breaking flasks (Bob Jones)
  Specialty Grains in Extract Beer (Robert H. Reed)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 03:29:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: MR_SPOCK at delphi.com
Subject: Cider recipe

cider

One of the great things about living in New England (VT) is the ample supply
of apple cider. I've made about 4 batches of cider now and they've all come 
out real well. Here are a few things to remember when making a cider:

 -Do not use cider that has been pastauerized or contains preservatives. You 
 can usually find the untouched cider in the grocery store when cider is in
 season. The best cider is obtained at the press. You can always go to the
 press and get your 6 gallon carboy filled up for less than $10.00

 -There is sugar in the cider itself. Usually it is between 1.035 and 1.040
 Cider must have a high alcoholic content if you intend to keep it for any 
 signifigant amount of time. Always ajust the SG  > 1.070 with honey, cane
 sugar, or maple syrup. 

 -Never boil cider. If you need to adjust its temperature you can do it when
 you add the sugar/water solution.

 -Cider blends vary by season and presses. The beginning of the season usually
 has higher acid/ low sugar content while the end of season pressings offer 
 more sugar/ less acidic juice. You can change the acidity and tartness by
 the additions of citric acid and tannin.

 -If you want dry cider use a wine or champagne yeast. Ale yeast will provide
 a higer EG and will make a sweeter end product.

 -Cider ferments like wine. Initial fermentation is about 2 weeks while 
 secondary fermentation usually is greater than 2.5 months.

 All that said, lets make cider!!

             CIDER 1                                 CIDER 2
   5gal fresh pressed cider                 5gal fresh pressed cider
   6lbs wildflower honey                    5lbs cane sugar
   1gal water (to boil honey)               1lb cane sugar
   1 tsp tannin                             1gal water (boil w/ sugars) 
   1 tsp acid blend                         Lalvin white wine yeast    
   Lalvin white wine yeast                  SG= 1.070 EG = 0.990   
   SG= 1.072  EG= .996                      Primary ferment = 2.5 weeks
   Primary ferment = 2 weeks                secondary ferment = 4.5 months
   secondary ferment = 2 months             bottle still or prime
   bottle still or prime

   Cider 1 was definatly the better of the two. I've used honey ever since.
   Cider 1 is now 1 year old and has a faint sparkle and carbonation to it.
   This happens to me whenever I use honey. If you live in New England you 
   should definatly find a local press and make a day out of watching them
   press the apples and then return home to make this wonderful beverage.
   -------------------------------------------------------------- RM -------


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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 22:17:01 
From: steve.siegel at cyberia.com
Subject: San diego brew pubs


This is my first HBD entry so i'll try not be "drivel." I couldnt resist after
all the brew about the disgruntled reader who doesnt like lazy posters.  Anyway
ill be traveling to San Diego on Sep 21 and wanted some info on the best places
to go for a brew pub expidition (beer crawl). My other question is how can i
get a 1.25 gallon keg out to San Diego?  My friend needs to try my beer and I
live in Pennsylvania.  Someone please help.  Private Email is fine, cuz, ill
write a summary later.  I am also in need of a really good stoudt and fruit
recipe. so send your best to me!!! please!  


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 7:59:13 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Benefits of Blow off Hose

Terry asks about using a blow-off tube instead of a big carboy:

I have used blow-off hoses in the past and I currently use the 7.5 gal
glass carboy with an airlock.  Since the cold-break sits on the bottom,
none of it will go out the blow-off hose.  It will remove some of the
gunky, dark brown hop resins that come to the top but I find that they
tend to stick to the sides of the carboy anyhow.  In addition, according
to Mark Garetz' book on hops, these resins are insoluble anyhow so they
would not affect your beer if they fell back in.

My conclusion was that a blow-off tube primarily blew off about 2 qts of
what would have been good beer.  Furthermore, when brewing an ale, it
got rid of the nice, thick yeast head that forms on the top of the beer.

That's my $0.02 worth.

- --

Jim Grady              | "I got ... a set of Presidential Commemorative
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |  plates so I could eat my eggs off the
                       |  President's face."
                       |                                Steve Goodman

P.S. -- I also use a counterflow chiller.

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 06:56:25 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Drying Hops

There do seem to be problems attributable to light and air--ever see a cone 
left on the vine too long?  As soon as it starts to open/bloom, it turns brown
and is useless.

My take on this issue is that the cone shape tends to protect the lupulin 
powder--it is mostly closed to light and air, and it points down enough to 
keep sun out anyway.  This may or may not be true after picking the 
cones--handling may cause cones to open somewhat more, they may be in lots of 
different orientations, and are generally just more vulnerable.

With care, you could dry them in full sun with no problems.  But, as with so 
much brewing advice, the general advice should be to be careful--minimizing 
exposure to light and air will just help your hops stay in good shape for 
brewing.  

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 13:03:08 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Autumn/Weather/Cleveland


- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-17410

In HBD 1526, bill.rust at travel.com (Bill Rust) wrote:
> 
> [Stuff cut]
> 
> P.S.  Can brewing beer really help you score with the Babes??
 
     Maybe not but after a few pints of brew, who cares?
 
Cheers,
     Brian


- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-17410

|
|
|    Brian Gowland                        Computer Centre
|    Microcomputer Support Analyst        Royal Holloway
|                                         University of London
|    B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk                Egham
|    Tel: (0784) 443167                   Surrey
|    Fax: (0784) 434348                   TW20 0EX
|
|

- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-17410--

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 08:29:08 EDT
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: Ofest style and G. Fix's book

 
Well,
   Seeing that Oktoberfest starts this Saturday in Meunchen and that the Ofest
beers are starting to turn up in stores near me, I have a few thoughts about
this style which I'd enjoy comment on. (I'll start to brew some once the weather
gets a little colder).
 
   In George Fix's book, all of the recipies are primarily a base 2 row malt
with small amounts of crystal.  However, in the book it briefly mentions that
Dreher mostlikely brewed entirely with Vienna malt. It also goes on to say
that current Vienna malts are made from poor quality (or some similar 
descriptor) base malts and are not appropriate for brewing this style.
 
   Does any one have any experience here brewing entirely with Vienna or
Munich malts?   If these malts will convert themselves why would they be
inappropriate for this style.... particularly when Dreher brewed this way.
 
Ein, Zwei, Drei..G'soffa
 
ChuckM


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 08:44:30 -0400
From: blue at cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue)
Subject: Carboy breaks

	I am fortunate enough to have a 12 gallon carboy for my primary (no 
worry about blow-off!).  However, it weighs over 25 pounds empty, and I'd
hate to be near it if it broke, empty or full.
	I bought about 50 feet of clothesline rope and put a double loop
around the carboy about 1/4 of the way up, then wove a fishnet kind of
bottom attached to the double loop, and finally attached double-loop
handles. I lift the half-full carboy only once per batch, from the floor
(after being filled) to the fermenting table. Without the handles, lifting
the carboy safely would be impossible.
	This works quite well and would also be applicable to 5 or 6.5 gallon
carboys. (I instead use a milk crate for my 5-gallon carboys.)


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:24:21 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (R. Keith Frank, DCR&D, 409-238-9880)
Subject: Re: Yeast popsicles / Babes

I too have (accidentally) frozen my liquid yeast (Wyeast 1056).  I 
discovered my error a week or so later, when I thawed it, popped it and 
then made it into a starter.  It still worked just fine.

***********

Bill Rust Asks:
>P.S.  Can brewing beer really help you score with the Babes??
yes.

Keith Frank
keithfrank at dow.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 10:09:39 CDT
From: caa at com2app.c2s.mn.org (Charles Anderson)
Subject: Re: Carboy Carriers

> Lotsa bandwidth has been dedicated to crashing carboys of late and I would
> like to hear from people who use carboy carriers.  The carrier fits around
> the neck of the carboy and has a handle attached.  Everything is coated
> the rubber, so it's non-slip.  I've read every book, magazine, and HBD
> that I could find and none of my brew buddies could think of a reason
> not to use it.  I guess my concern is about stress on the carboy neck
> when carrying it.

I've used them, and my basic advice for other people that use them is:
Don't use them for holding up the full weight of the carboy.

I ended up with 5 gallons of good Cabernet Sauvignon on the floor of the
basement because the "non-slip" rubber did.  IMHO they're only good as
another method of holding on to the neck, the weight of the carboy should
be supported by a hand underneath.

 -Charlie


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Date: 14 Sep 1994 11:49:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mr. Dudley" <S29711%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com>
Subject: Re: carboy carriers

Guy Mason asks about carboy carriers.

To Guy and anyone else interested:
I have one on each of my 7 gal. and 5 gal. carboys.  I have lifted,
transported, cleaned, and filled them with the carriers installed for 3 years. 
I have never (sound of knocking on wood) had an incident.  The carrier fits
better on the 7 gal than the 5, which leads me to believe that one wont fit on
a 3 gal I plan to purchase soon for mead and special batches.  I haven't tested
the 3gal. theory though so don't quote me.

Another -safer- option is to build a wheel-around wood frame carrier which
encompasses the entire carboy, as detailed in the Zymurgy Gadget issue.  These
are most convenient when there are no stairs to traverse in your procedure, 
albeit carrying the carboy in a frame (esp. if handles are installed) would
seem inherently safer than the ring.

I agree that the carboys do not look very strong in the neck region, but when I
carry them I always let them hang straight down, avoiding creating a lever arm
with the fulcrum at the carboy neck.  I lift from the bottom when tilting is
necessary.

Good luck,
jcd


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:40:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: gbaldw at zaphod.usin.com (Gordon Baldwin)
Subject: Professional brewers/SS boil tun's

Jim Busch writes:
> Gordon writes:
> 
> > what exactly I was attempting to brew on that occasion. This is probably
> > why Jim and Micah are brewing professionally and I'm not. (sigh)
> 
> Micah is a pro, Im not (yet at least, maybe in another lifetime ;-) 
> 
I guess seeing your picture in Zymurgy bending over an open fermenter in
Belgium made me question your amature status.

Along the lines of having someone weld up a stainless box for an open
fermenter, has anyone had a SS box welded up for a boiler. I brew inside
on the stove (gas) and I like it that way. I currently use an 8 gallon
round ceramic on steel pot that covers 2 burners. It works pretty well
but I would like to jump up to 10 gallon batches. I would rather not
have to go to the garage with a rocket engine. Has anyone done this? I
have thought of drawing up some plans and going down to the local
machine shop, but if someone has already done this it might save me a
couple of design iterations. I want something that is as deep as the gas
cooktop and completely covers the two burners and it wide and tall
enough to hold at least 13 gallons perferably 15.

- -- 
Gordon Baldwin
gbaldw at usin.com
Olympia Washington

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 12:13:51 -0400
From: RLANCASTER at ntia.doc.gov
Subject:  Geneva Beers

Thanks for the input...I am going to a TG 1/3 and then SG 1 meetings,
and last year we had about one hour off in three days, sat in the
park by the lake and wished for a homebrew.  Heard from
longmore at tyrell.net about a cafe with a good selection of Belgian
(yum) beers on Avenue Wendt near Avenue Luscerna that I will check
out.  


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 09:20:57 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard A Childers)
Subject: The 'Drying Hops' Thread


Hal Laurent <laurent at clark.net> notes :

"Even if light *is* bad when drying hops, that doesn't preclude using a 
 lightbulb as the heat source.  Just mount a sufficiently large tin can 
 over the light bulb to block the light."


Um, well, if you do this, you stand a good chance of collecting so much
heat that the solder holding the bulb to the base will probably melt.

At least, this is what I see happen in some metal desk lamps that are
left on for long periods of time ( like several days ).

Revisiting our proposed drying box - rails on each side, holding wooden
frames covered with light screen, a small incandescent bulb down in the
bottom and a few holes in the top and maybe a small computer fan either
blowing cool air over the bulb, or drawing warmed air out the top - we
can see, easily, with a little visualization, that no light will pene-
 -trate beyond the first frame or two of hops.

We could, perhaps, replace the first tray with a couple of cardboard
baffles which allowed air flow, but blocked direct light, with ease ...

It's not a big problem to overcome.


- -- richard

                 Law : The science of assigning responsibility.
              Politics : The art of _distributing_ responsibility.

   richard childers        san francisco, california        pascal at netcom.com

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Date: 14 Sep 94 18:47:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: carboy handles

Guy writes:
>I would like to hear from people who use carboy carriers.

I have carboy handles on 11 of my 13 carboys (5- and 6- gallon) and plan
to get two more for my two 3-gallon carboys.  They work great and have I'm
sure they have saved many a batch of beer.  It certainly doesn't feel as
if the neck is at risk of a stress fracture even when carrying 5 gallons
of 1120 OG Imperial Stout.  I don't know about using them for 7-gallon
carboys -- I understand that the necks of these carboys are quite a bit
thinner glass.  I used to have one handle and changed it back and forth
between carboys, but I finally broke down and got the other 10.  No regrets.

Al.

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Date: 14 Sep 94 11:11:00 MDT (Wed)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: MLD (re: need mead)

jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler) wrote:
> Tasted a really good mead for the first time. Now I want to make one.  
> All advice, recipes, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Please, add  
> details about types of honey and yeast, amounts of other ingredients,  
> boil vs not boil, etc...

Cautiously after the last flamewar, I'll still suggest that there's a
better way to start on this than a thread in HBD.  First, (a) the Mead-
Lover's Digest is probably a better place for mead discussions.  They
spill over into HBD now and then, no harm done, but if they get going much
they'll rob bandwidth from HBD beer discussions.  Then, (b), there's
already a lot of details written down about honey, yeast, techniques,
etc., in the sierra mead archives--there's a README (which should be
called a FAQ; sorry 'bout that) and a recipe collection, plus about 350
back issues of the digest.  At least give the README and the recipes a
look first.

Details - from MLD header:
  Send ONLY articles for the digest to mead-lovers at eklektix.com.
  Use mead-lovers-request@ eklektix.com for subscribe, unsubscribe, and admin
      requests.  When subscribing, please include your name and a good address
      in the message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
  There is an FTP archive of the digest on sierra.stanford.edu in pub/mead.
      If you have email access but not ftp, it will accept "listserv" requests.
      Send email with message "help" to listserv at sierra.stanford.edu.
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 15:02:08 -0400
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: Re: carboy breaks


>> My "solution" to the breaking carboy problem is this: each carboy
>> lives in a plastic "milk crate".  

5 gallon pails are also the right size.  The bail doesn't fit over
the neck, unfortunately.

dave

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Date:           Wed, 14 Sep 94 15:08 EDT
From: Mike_ONeil at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Hawaii Brew Info

 I'll be going to the Island of Hawaii and Maui in a couple of weeks and
would appreciate any info. on brewpub's or bars with good beer selections.
Personal email replies please.

Thanks, Mike

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 12:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marvin Crippen <mandos at u.washington.edu>
Subject: question about pilsner enzyme

What is pilsner enzyme?  It is supposed to be added with yeast.
I was at a homebrew store the other day when someone called to ask about it.
The proprietor of the store didn't know what it was.  A quick look through
most of the books in the store lead me to believe it might be invertase
enzyme (mentioned in Randy Mosher's new book) because invertase helps yeast
out.

Does anybody know for sure what pilsner enzyme is?

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marvin Crippen			Defender of Freedom, Arbitrator of Justice
mandos at u.washington.edu		All Around Nice Guy, NOT!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------





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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 10:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Trub Removal Bleus (that's French!)

Jay Lonner writes:

> Hi,
> 
> I need trub help.  Nothing I do seems to get rid of it, short of racking to
> another vessel.  Yesterday's brew was the worst yet -- a barleywine
> (partial-mash, full boil) that is probably 40% trub!  This was a very
expensive
> beer to make, and it annoys me to no end that I'll end up tossing such a
large
> quantity of it.  I use an immersion chiller, whole hops, and the copper
> scrubby/nylon mesh combo on the bottom of my racking cane.  This does a fine
> job of filtering hops, but not trub.  My books say that commercial breweries
> use whirlpool action to separate the wort from the trub, but this is beyond
my
> capabilities.  


Why is a whirlpool beyond your capabilities?  It's funny, I've heard
this several times, and even read it in Mark Garetz's book on hops, but
all you really need is a big spoon and some copper tubing and a very
small drill bit.  

I use a counter-flow chiller, so you may have to adapt something else to
make your system work, but it's simple: I wrapped soft copper tubing
around the kettle once, to shape it, then compressed it just a bit more
so that it would fit snugly around the *interior* perimeter of the
kettle.  There is enough left over to run straight up the kettle and
out, to be connected by tubing to my wort chiller.

The bottom of the loop has been drilled with very fine holes.  I
disremember the gauge, but I used a Moto-tool drill with a very fine
bit; I was *very* careful drilling and didn't break the bit, but spares
are a good idea.  The fine holes mean that only liquid passes through,
and only once or twice have enough of them clogged to slow the siphon.

When I reach the end of the boil, I put the loop into the kettle, and
then use a long, stainless steel spoon to start a whirlpool.  It's
possible to get a really good spin going without splashing the hot wort.
Then I put the lid back on the kettle and let it sit for about 20 min.
During this time the vortex spins all the trub into a green mountain at
the center of the kettle.  The copper loop runs *outside* the mountain,
and by gentle siphoning I can draw off virtually every drop of wort.  

This system works best with hop pellets, as there is no way of squeezing
wort out of a mound of soggy hops -- I still can use loose hops for
finishing, but tend to keep it to a minimum.

There is an article in the most recent Zymurgy that outlines a really
interesting-looking hopback, a closed unit that sounds as though it
would work very well for you also.  As I recall, it would work with an
immersion chiller.

Years ago, my brewing partner and I ran everything through an open
hopback -- the kettle had a tap in the bottom with a rough screen over
it and the hot wort ran down into the lauter tun (now doubling as
hopback) in which we threw fresh, loose hops.  These did a bang-up job
of screening out trub and obviously added lots of aroma.  Having read
George Fix on the subject of HSA in the meantime, I would generally shy
away from this.

- --Jeff Frane



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Date:          Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:34:45 EST
From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Brewing Studies

Although this is probably a "lazy brewer" request (actually, it's a 
technology deprived request), I hope that no one takes great offense. 
What I would like is information on institutes or colleges that have 
brewing or fermentation studies in the U.S.  I know that U.C. Davis 
and Siebel's have them, but I am not sure what their curriculum looks 
like.  Also, is there anyone else other than them?  Any help on this 
matter would be greatly appreciated.  If you wish to send private e-
mail, the address is pratte at gg.csc.peachnet.edu.  

Dr. John Pratte
Clayton State College

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Date: 14 Sep 94 17:55:03 -0700
From: keith.prader at wtgw.worldtalk.com
Subject: Carboy Stories....


Greetings HBD'ers,
I also do enjoy the brewing stories that are posted as well as the newbie 
questions.  This is a forum for our learninig and entertainment, 
live life a little, lighten up. Now a _quick_ brewing storie so I can
be flamed for wasting band width.   
I don't have serious storie where my carboy fall and cut me to shreds, 
but it was pretty funny when I was trying to force carbonate one of 
my kegs by shaking the hell out of it with the co2 pushing about 
30 lbs.  I made the mistake of leaving the 4 foot dispenser hose 
on the keg.  I use(d) these cheap plastic hose clamps to lock (NOT) 
the hoses and of course one let go.  And of course this was the 
one that was holding on the tap and it let go at the tap.  
Do any of you remember the "Water-Weanie"?  While beer was decorating 
the walls of my kitchen I of course was trying to grab the loose 
end of the hose.  For some reason in a panic situation your mind points
 you to the problem at hand as opposed to the source of the problem.  
After I was able to capture the beer sprinkler I realized that 
I still had to detatch it from the keg.  That was the easy part.  
Cleanup was hell, 
I still spot some beer stains on the ceiling every now and then.  
And wasn't there a beer shampoo on the market at some time ......?

Burp,
Keith Prader
keith at worldtalk.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:08:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cree-ee-py Boy <BIRMINGH at FNALV.FNAL.GOV>
Subject: Nutty beer

Lazy homebrewer :-) Jim Robinson asks:

>  I just 
>kegged a Belgian style ale and had a little taste.  I was 
>surprised to find that the beer tasted, well, uh... kinda 
>"nutty?".  It had a mild sherry type of taste.

         It sounds like oxidation to me.  Did you splash either hot wort or
    fermented beer around at all?

- --
 Phillip J. Birmingham    
 birmingh at fnalv.fnal.gov "Tampering in God's Domain since 1965!"

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 16:57:54 -0500 (EST)
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Bulk Malt Extract Summary

Thanks to the homebrewers who sent suggestions regarding buying malt
extract in bulk.  I got eight replies in all, from John DeCarlo, Paul S.,
Larry Bristol, Sean MacLennan, Greg Heiler, "Bob" ?,  Norm npyle, and Bob
Paolino)  Basically, the key thread of most of the replies was to get a
good name brand extract such as Alexander's, Laaglander, or Northwestern
(Breiss) Malt Extract, and stick with that for awhile.  This should help
me keep at least one variable constant.  Also, the price is very good
for a case at around $50-60 for 10-12.  (This is for canned or boxed
syrups, I'm still looking for a good deal on DME.)

Everyone, of course, suggested crushing the crystal malt.  I should'a 
checked papazian or a faq.

I thought this was a  pretty good respose from the group, and I enjoyed
learning more than I asked about, and the followup "conversations."

The Wine Hobby extract turned out just fine BTW, a perfect case of support
for the RDWHAHB concept!  There were some definitely odd flavors at 18 days
that were mostly gone even at 21 days.  Now, at only about 4 weeks, the brew
is quite enjoyable, though just a tad flat.  (I've been using 2/3 cup of
corn sugar (bottling 5 gal) with good results, but will definitely go back
to using the full 3/4 cup after this.  Anyway, it's not bad enough to worry
about repriming it in any way.  I just serve it a little warm and that seems
to help. 

- --Brian Pickerill  <00bkpickeril at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu>

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 02:20:40 EDT
From: Yeastbud at aol.com
Subject: British Brown Malt

I'm new to the net, but not to all-grain brewing.  Lately I've experimented
with Brown malt in strong brown ale (7.9%v/v) and in a porter.  I used no
chocolate or black malt in the porter and it came out a lovely deep opaque
brown.  Needless to say I love this stuff.  Ive used it in amounts equaling
20 to 45 percent of my total mash and I think I'm  getting about 20 points to
the lb of extract. Has anyone else played around with these beautiful brown
barleycorns?


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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:59:36 +0930 (CST)
From: zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au (Reanimator)
Subject: Re: Adding Specialty Grains

Braz sez:
|>            PLEASE ALLOW ME TO INTRODUCE MYSELF AS THIS IS MY
|> FIRST INPUT TO THE NET.

Welcome to the HBD, dude!

|> THE GRAINS SHOULD BE ADDED------BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE
|> COULD RELEASE THE POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES OF THE CRYSTAL MALT
|> BY STEEPING THE GRAIN IN A HOP SAC IMMERSED IN THE ONCE
|> BOILING WATER REMOVED FROM THE HEAT SOURCE--SAY FOR 15-20
|> MINS JUST AS THE ORIENTAL PRACTICE OF MAKING TEA FROM ROSE
|> HIPS AND HABISCIOUS FLOWERS.

That's exactly what I do, with the addition that I also run some hot
recently-boiled water through the grains afterwards to rinse out all the
remaining goodness.  My first introduction to the use of specialty grains
was a pamphlet by some guy on customising homebrew extract kits that
instructed people to boil their specialty grains for 20 minutes!  I learned
the hard way of the unpleasantness that can result from this.  So I started
chucking my grains in hot water that had been previously boiled and letting
it steep.  Works fine for me :)
- --
                            zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au
                      http://www.cs.adelaide.edu.au/~zoz/

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 08:11:02 EDT
From: DATADUMP at aol.com
Subject: Lazy Brewers/People

BREWS at Delphi.com writes:

>I don't condone them [lazy people] trying to get other people to do
>their work for them.  You cannot learn by asking someone else to >paraphrase
an experience. You can improve by doing it . . . .

Neither do I.  It has been said, "A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise
man learns from the mistakes of others."  Translation, Bruce, is, how does
making a mistake that someone else made make me a better brewer? Since
beginning, not quite a year ago, the hobby of brewing I have had people tell
me more of what not to do.  In short, learn from their mistakes.

>a justifiable excuse to leave this forum of mean spirits. With
>that said...Good riddance to the bad apples.

Oh well . . .

A comment to fellow newbies:

Please, do not be intimidated by what has been going on regarding "worthless
posts."  If you are unsure whether or not to ask a question go ahead and ask.
 Chances are that others have the same questions.  (How often did we sit in
school afraid to ask for fear of appearing stupid?  And how relieved we were
when someone else asked the question!)  To perpetuate the old adage,  "The
only stupid question is the one that is not asked."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have learned quite a bit from the HBD.  Thanks to all for your
contriibutions and yes, Bruce, I learned from yours also.

Happy Brewing!

Gordon Cain      THE-BREW BBS   (407)-THE-BREW    Orlando, Fl.

cc:  BREWS at Delphi.com



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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 13:04:47 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Auto Sparger...


In HBD 1527, arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) wrote:
> 
> > I say this is a British method as it would appear that this is frowned upon
> > by many US brewers but...
> 
> Frowned on or not, if you choose to use a method that requires such a device
> it is a bit like saying that you must have unleaded gas because your choice
>  of car won't run on leaded gas.  It seems sort of a self-inflicted pain.
> 
> I am not sure why you use the "British" method but if it is for efficiency,
> you a barking up the wrong tree.  It is much more efficient to sparge in the
> more "traditional" manner.
 
     I use this method because it *IS* a "traditional" method as far as the
British brewing industry is concerned. Sparging was not introduced in Britain
until the mid-1800s - until then, the traditional approach had been to drain
the mash-tun completely at run-off and then to re-mash a second, and sometimes
a third, time. When sparging was introduced and sparge arms invented, I presume
that they found that it was not neccessary to change the practice of draining
the mash-tun completely, hence this method of sparging. Some British breweries
did, and still do, practice sparging during run-off in order to prevent the
grain bed from running dry - this is called "fly-mashing" in Britain. I have
tried both methods and I'm not sure that I can make a comparison as I haven't
done any fly-mashing since I upgraded various bits of equipment. I'm not sure
that I could improve much on my extraction rates but may try it again to see.
I find it unlikely as I know that a contributing factor to loss of possible
extraction is that I have to stop sparging before all of the sugars have been
rinsed out as I am unable to boil much above 20 Litres - if I increased my
boiler capacity, I am sure that my extraction rates would improve with my
method of draining the grain bed. One minor point about fly-mashing is the
need to control run-off rate and sparge liquor rate. With my system, I simply
run-off, unattended, until dry and then "drop" 15+ Litres of temperature
controlled sparge liquor, via my sparge arm, unattended, through the grain
bed.
 
> > Using this method, I achieve a run-off/sparge time of 45-60 minutes and a
> > mash efficiency of between 88%-92% (31 - 33 pts).
> 
> If these numbers are correct than there is not much room for improvement but
> neither is there any reason to do it that way if efficiency is your aim.
 
     My reasons are mainly authenticity - I drink British Real Ale in my local
pub and I want to brew British Real Ale in my home. For this reason I like to
follow the traditional practices of commercial brewers as closely as possible.
I use an insulated mash-tun for mashing and sparging rather than mashing on a
stove and sparging in a seperate lauter-tun. Insulating the mash-tun with
blankets and things every brew day is more self-inflicted pain but its a
traditional British method that has its advantages.
 
> No problem other than that I don't want a 5 gallon pot of hot water around if
> I can avoid it and furthermore, I need almost 10 gals of sparge water and the
> problem gets worse as a function of batch size.
 
     My batch sizes mean that I don't have the second problem. The first, I
don't find a problem - there are no children or animals in my house and my
SO steers well clear of the kitchen on brew days. The boiler is sited on a
secure worktop in a corner with the mash-tun in front - there is no way of
getting near to it or accidentally knocking it.
 
Cheers,
     Brian


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Date: 15 Sep 1994 08:56:52 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Cracking Erlenmeyers

Subject:  Cracking Erlenmeyers

Bart Thielges writes about his cracking flask...

>So, I'm merrily working on getting my yeast culture medium (1.040 wort)
>up to a boil in my Erlenmeyer flask when I hear a nice CRACK.  Sure enough,
>a huge crack has developed across the bottom of the flask.  

(edit)

>Has anyone else had this problem before ?  I'd like to make sure that
>I'm doing the right thing before I break another expensive piece of
>glassware. 

Are you kidding?  If I had a nickel for every flask that I have broken.....
well.... maybe I could put a down-payment on another one.  These are 
expensive at any level of purchase.   Enough prattle.  

They ARE capable of being heated on a stove top but not on BLAST. 
If you are in a hurry you will over and unevenly heat. The result is a 
broken flask.  Heat slowly (on medium). Small scratches on the outside 
of the flask will exacerbate this tendancy.

Notice that they are shaped like a volcano-'nuff said.

I have found that Geordie DME has less tendancy to boil over than 
either Laaglander or M&F DME.  At least at the concentration that I use. 
The texture of the extract is different- more granular, due to a different
drying process. In any case it seems to come to a boil more smoothly,
with less foaming.  Why?  I don't know.  Perhaps the sugar or protein
composition is different.  

DanMcC------Another one of those Ann Arbor guys.


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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 07:58:23 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Re: Temperature control for refrigerator

Joe McCarthy writes:

>I take
>it that the purpose of installing a special controller is to more
>precisely (and reliably?) regulate the temperature in the
>refrigerator.  I assume that this is because wide temperature
>fluctuations are bad for the yeast.

The point, I believe, is not so much to reduce fluctuations in temperature 
(I don't think that external controllers will do that), but to be able to 
achieve the desired temperature.  For example, I generally ferment my ales 
at 60F, and my lagers at 50F.  Without my external controller, my frig 
won't go that high.  (BTW, I use a Hunter Air Stat.)

>Another question I have is whether I can use this refrigerator both to
>brew beer and to store bottled beer, since the latter use will entail
>opening and closing the refrigerator much more often than the former
>use (and may add to the temperature fluctuations).  

I used to without any trouble, other than physical space limitations.  
I finally just got a second beer frig to use for storage.

>Another, related question has to do with changing the temperature
>settings.  If I run the refrigerator at 50 degrees during primary
>fermentation, and then turn it down to ~35 degrees for lagering, will
>the 15 degree change in temperature have any adverse effects on the
>bottled beer already in the refrigerator?

I don't believe so.  I used to do the same thing all the time.

Regards,
Keith Frank  (keithfrank at dow.com)

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 09:43 EDT
From: sunlife at uunorth.north.net (Glenn Anderson)
Subject: HDPE

I've recently come across several 100 liter HDPE (stamped HDPE 2 with the 
universal recycle symbol) barrels that contained malt extract. The plan is 
to upgrade the home brewery to a 10 gallon/batch system using 3 of the 
barrels in a gravity feed/step sort of fashion.

I'd like to post a few questions re HDPE. First, can I boil in this stuff? 
What's the maximum temperature for HDPE? The plan is to mount a low density 
hot water heater element into one as a kettle. Second, are there any toxins 
that I can leach out by mashing or boiling in HDPE? The barrels are stamped 
with a warning "warranted for first time use only, do not reuse for food or 
drink". I'm assuming that this means the manufacturer doesn't want to accept 
the liability for subsequent use based on what was in the barrel originally, 
or is there more to this warning?  Third, what's the best way to get that 
nasty (old) malt extract smell out of the barrels.

TIA...
Glenn Anderson
Manager, Telecommunications Facilities, BCS
Sun Life Of Canada
GANDE at SLIMS.ATTMAIL.COM or
SUNLIFE at UUNORTH.NORTH.NET


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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 10:22:29 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Celis article

KWH writes:
 > If anyone is interested, there was an interesting 1/2 page article about 
 > the Celis brewery in the Monday (September 12) edition of USA Today.  

Anybody want to type this in (OCR it?) for those of us who are too
lazy ;-) to go to the library and look it up?

=S

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 07:32:48 +0900
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: Breaking flasks

>From: bart at nexgen.com (Bart Thielges)
>Subject: A real crack up
>
>So, I'm merrily working on getting my yeast culture medium (1.040 wort)
>up to a boil in my Erlenmeyer flask when I hear a nice CRACK.  Sure enough,
>a huge crack has developed across the bottom of the flask.  Fortunately,
>the wort is only slowly leaking out and didn't make a complete mess of the
>stovetop.
>
Snip
Snip
>
>Has anyone else had this problem before ?  I'd like to make sure that
>I'm doing the right thing before I break another expensive piece of
>glassware.  I never dropped, scratched, or bumped the flask which cracked.
>I really like the Erlenmeyer flask design because it is ideal for swirling
>and is really easy to grip.
>
>Thanks,
>Bart		bart at nexgen.com
>Brewing equipment broken since last message : 1 flask, 1 airlock
>

Yep, happened to me once. I would bet your heating the flask on an electric
burner. You need a wire trivet. This little ring keeps the flask from coming
into direct contact with the electric burner. There is some sort of
molecular change that takes place in the glass when it sets on an electric
burner at high temps. I had a 1 liter flask bottom drop off, it looked like
a glass cutter had been use to remove the bottom. It was perfect. You could
buy a wire trivet or just make one out of a coat hanger. Personaly I have
went away from using the flask on a stove method of making starters, I have
moved on to pressure cooking several starters well in advance. That way they
are cool and insured to be sterile. Actually I think the flask geometry is
pretty poor for starters. The tappering neck is not what you want. You want
to maximize the surface area, to maximize the O2 exposure. After breaking a
couple of flasks I have went to a 200ml screw top flask for the first stage
(I only put 30ml in it) and a 1 gallon wine jug for the later stages of
growth. The glass wine jugs are cheap, straight sided and sanitize well.

Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:54:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert H. Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Specialty Grains in Extract Beer

 BRAZZLEJ at hillwpos.hill.af.mil writes:
 
> Subject:  HOW AND WHEN TO ADD SPECIALTY GRAINS
<snip>
> SINCE I'VE DONE MORE READING ABOUT BREWING BEER THAN
> ACTUALLY BREWING MYSELF,  I'VE NOTICED THAT ALL OF THE
> RECIPES I'VE COME ACCROSS INSTRUCT THE HOMEBREWER TO ADD
> THE SPECIALTY GRAINS, (IN MY CASE CRYSTAL MALT), TO THE
> WATER IN THE BREWPOT AND BRING TO A BOIL MAKING SURE TO
> REMOVE THE GRAINS BEFORE THE BOIL IS REACHED TO AVOID THE
> UNPLEASANT PROPERTIES OF THE GRAIN TO BE RELEASED INTO THE
> WORT...

IMO, the problem of tannin extraction can and does occur
prior to the time you remove the grains using this method.

<snip>
- --BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE
> COULD RELEASE THE POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES OF THE CRYSTAL MALT
> BY STEEPING THE GRAIN IN A HOP SAC IMMERSED IN THE ONCE
> BOILING WATER REMOVED FROM THE HEAT SOURCE--SAY FOR 15-20
> MINS JUST AS THE ORIENTAL PRACTICE OF MAKING TEA FROM ROSE
> HIPS AND HABISCIOUS FLOWERS. 

This would certainly extract the goodness from the crystal,
but...

> IT SEEMS THIS CRYSTAL MALT TEA METHOD WOULD PROVIDE
> COMPLETE AVOIDANCE OF SITTING OVER YOUR BREWPOT MAKING
> SURE TO REMOVE THE GRAIN BEFORE THE BOIL HAS COMMENCED.
> AND SURELY WOULD REMOVE THE CONCERN OF RELEASING ANY
> NASTY BITTERNESS INTO THE WORT FROM BOILING THE GRAIN.

I feel the important variables in extracting flavor from
specialty grains are the pH and temperature of this
grist/water combination.  I think you would be better off
heating your *treated* brewing water up to a temperature,
such that when your grains are added, the water/grain mixture
settles at 150-165F.

There are sources explaining why high temperature and high
pH can lead to excessive tannin extraction in normal mashes
and I feel they are applicable to your specialty grain
'mashes'.

I think your idea of steeping is a good one, but I'd do it
at a lower - 150F to 165F - temperature for 20-30 mins.

My experience with extract and specialty beers using a 155F
specialty grain steep have been positive.  I've never used
the Papazian method, but I've tasted astringent beers made 
with it.

 -Rob Reed

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1528, 09/16/94