FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re. kegging (Stan Fisher)
  Racking cider (uswlsrap)
  Attn. California Clubs ("Rad Equipment")
  Smithwicks / beer in the fridge (Eamonn McKernan)
  dunkelweizen/sugar/raised letters (Gary Rich)
  pumpkin brew (Tom Pratt)
  Homebrew Supplies in Annapolis, MD (WSPEIGHTS)
  Demerara as used in Guyana (Benjamin Butzer)
  Red color/next piece of equipment/date codes (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  homegrown hop update ("David Sapsis")
  Brewing Schools? (TWETZEL)
  Carboy Diem (David Draper)
  Help needed with SS keg plumbing (Greg Ames)
  Anchor Spruce Beer (Jeff Guillet)
  Need Victoria BC Ale Fest Info (Tom Baier)
  re: Origins of MEADE (Dick Dunn)
  A Very Satisfied Customer (Jack Skeels)
  DC AREA BREWERS (aaron.banerjee)
  yeast cell lifespan (RaceBrewer)
  steel cut oats (Frank J. Leers)
  Weisen Experiment ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Hoptech / Celis ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  thanks... (abaucom)
  Re: Hops in starters; autoclaving (Keith Frank)
  Steam (tm) beer (Allan Rubinoff)
  Scoth Ale Question (MELOTH MICHAEL S)
  Starters n' such (Brian A Nummer)
  Re: Kegging ("nancy e. renner")
  Harpoon Octoberfest ("Terence McGravey {91942}")



******************************************************************
* NEW POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from 
  sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via 
  mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu.  Send HELP as the body of a 
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) 
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:49:03 -0600
From: stanf at indirect.com (Stan Fisher)
Subject: Re. kegging


>>Question:  What CO2 pressure/time-length is needed to artificially carbonate
>>5 gallons O'beer?
>>
>>(the keg is refrigerated, the CO2 is not, and the beer was primed with ~1 cup
>> malt extract for several weeks and had pressure when I initially tapped it)
>>
>>PS...the beer tastes great...just flat...
>
>No problem.  Pressure up to 35 to 40 psi and shake for several minutes.  
>Then let the beer settle for several hours before bleeding down the 
>pressure and sampling.

Ouch!  Does anyone have the "Volumes of CO2" chart in ascii to post or mail
to these folks?   35 to 40 psi is a roll of the dice!  If you shake too long
you've got a gusher if you shake to short (time) you're still flat.
example:  If your beer is at 40 degrees F and you want 2.5 volumes of CO2
in your beer (based on style), you set your CO2 regulator at about 12.5 psi
and shake until it's saturated.  If you connect your CO2 up to the draw
tube side instead of the normal CO2 in side, you can hear the CO2 bubble up
through the beer as you shake. This also gives the beer better exposure to
the gas as it comes in.  At the point that shaking no longer causes more CO2
to enter the keg (no more burble sound), you are done.  Let it sit over night
to settle the foam inside and tap.  35 to 40 psi would only be required if your 
beer is very warm, in fact hot.  Check page 184 in The Home Brewers Companion.

Stan

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Stan Fisher       |       stanf at indirect.com  - 165.247.1.4
 (602) 893-3620 (H)  |             I brew therefore I am.
 (602) 470-4443 (W)  |  Friends don't let friends drink Light Beer.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 11:33:39 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Racking cider                                                    

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
      Research Analyst
Subject: Racking cider

Along with the suggestions I offered in reply to the cider "how-to"
inquiries, I asked about the loose sediment I always get in my ciders
(regardless of yeast, et cetera). It doesn't take much of a disturbance
to turn my sparkling clear cider to a cloudy, murky (but still tasty)
liquid.

I promised to summarise replies, but received only one, which pointed
out that vintners rack their wines several times, and the same would
probably apply to cider. Today, however, I read John Faulks' post on
cider in which he suggested that racking even to a secondary was purely
optional in his opinion. (What kind of results have you had?)

With what I see at the bottom of the primary, I wouldn't want to skip
the secondary, but there's not much by the time I'm ready to rack from
secondary to the bottling bucket.

My question today is whether those of you who skip even the secondary
have any success in getting a firmly packed sediment in the bottle. If
it's possible to avoid a loose sediment after a primary fermentation
only, then it looks like we need to look to other factors to explain it.

There seems to be enough interest in cider to justify posting to hbd,
but private email is okay, too.

Don't fall out of the apple tree,

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace

Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Sep 1994 08:34:34 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Attn. California Clubs

Subject:  Attn. California Clubs                Time:8:17 AM     Date:9/22/94
Sixteenth Annual California State Homebrew Competition

November 12, 1994

Entry deadline: October 15th.

The San Andreas Malts are once again sponsoring the California State Homebrew
Competition, which will be held on November 12, 1994 in San Francisco.

This competition strives to promote brewing clubs and recognize individual
achievement in amateur brewing, to which end we encourage clubs from throughout
California to get their members' beers to San Francisco. As in the past, your
members can enter through your club or by winning an award in some other
competition within the state during the past year. Rumor has it that a number
of new clubs have been organized in order to qualify brewers for this
competition in the past. We encourage this practise if it helps to foster the
growth of homebrew clubs in California. I have already sent information packets
to all clubs known to me and am making sure any unknown clubs get the word by
listing the event electronically. Apologies to the  Internet world outside
California.

Both the Sierra Nevada Homebrewer of the Year and the Anchor California
Homebrew Club of the Year will be announced at the event. We also hope to
extend the hours of the event this year in order to allow more socializing and
relax the frenzy of calculating the award winners. To facilitate this we have
mover the competition from Sunday to Saturday. We also hope that this change
will encourage more long distance judges to participate.

This is an AHA sanctioned competition.

If you have any questions send your US Mail address to the Internet address
below or phone me.

We expect to have a great time and look forward to seeing your club represented
at the judging this year.


Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 11:55:54 EDT
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Smithwicks / beer in the fridge


Hi there, I'm new to this digest and I wanted to start off by saying that
it has been a great source of information for me already. Thank you one and 
all!

Tom was looking for an extract recipe for Smithwicks, and I happened to have
been in the same situation as he around 4 months ago. I went to my neighborhood
Wine-Art store and was provided with the following:

2 tins Pale Ale (1.5 kg each for 19L, 1.8kg for 23L)
125g Pale Ale grains
1 tsp Irish Moss
250 g Brew Body
3 (3 3/4) cups corn sugar for 19L (23L)
Ale yeast

Since there are no hops in this recipe, I assume the tins of pale ale extract
are meant to be hopped kits. Maybe someone else out there in cyber space wants
to suggest a nice variety (and amount!) of hops to use in the event that you
might prefer unhopped extract. Frankly, my experience with this recipe 
suggests that it's not worth the bother. 

Typical of the bad advice that I have recieved from this particular wine art 
store (Torontonians beware the Avenue road franchise. I've heard good things
about the one on the Danforth), they suggest that everything except the Irish
Moss be boiled (with adequate water) for 15 min. As recent HBD contributors
have noted, it's best not to boil the grains. Steep them in the already boiled
and cooled wort, or add them to warm water, and remove them before it comes
to a boil.  Add the Irish Moss in the last 3 minutes of the boil, then cool,
add to more water (enough to give you 19/23L of wort) , pour into the primary
with good aeration, and pitch the yeast. Oh yeah, add the sugar at the end of
the boil as well. Final gravity around 1.006

I had to rack this beer to the secondary before it's time (there was still
lots of activity after 4 days) because I was going away on vacation, but I 
ended up with a stuck fermentation, and despite re-pitching yeast and nutrient
at a later date, ended up with a very sweet over-carbonated beer. ie. a 
second fermentation waited until bottling before kicking in. I wish you better
luck. Let me know how it turns out!


And now a question:
I've had very bad luck when refrigerating my bottled homebrew. 3 or 4 days in
the fridge is enough to kill all sweetness in the beer, and make it quite
unpleasant to drink. I know that sweet taste buds are less sensitive at cold
temperatures, but equally cold homebrew which is not refrigerated (cooled 
quickly in the freezer) tastes delicious. This effect happens with a number of
different kinds of brew, and sometimes even seems to vary between bottles. 
I've also noticed that some micro-brewery beers also behave strangely when 
refrigerated. What's going on here? 

/
Eamonn McKernan
eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 09:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gary Rich <garyrich at kaiwan.com>
Subject: dunkelweizen/sugar/raised letters


> From: BURNELLT <BURNELLT at ropt1.am.wyeth.com>
> Subject: wyeast 3068
> 
> Mike Hansen comments that he felt that Wyeast 3068 should have been used in 
his
> dunkelwiezen bock for a more authentic flavor.This may be true but I used 
3068
> in a dunkelwiezen and a lot of the banana and clove flavor that I had in
> previous wiezens seemed to be covered up by the flavors contributed
> by the grains(I could barely taste this character). I would guess that this
> would be even more of a problem with a bock because of the increased hops. 
Sam
> Adams dunkelwiezen does have nice flavor from the yeast, but I did not have
> luck in replicating it. I may have used to much chocholate malt. Any recipes
> out there?

Well, dunkelweizen varies so much that I won't give you a hard and 
fast recipe.

The 3068 Wyeast (Wienstephan #68?) is the best one for the style that I have
used.  Cloviness is directly proportional to fermentation temperature.
If you want more, ferment a bit warmer.

For chocaolate malt, I would use no more than 0%.  It's not appropriate.
Use some Munich malt  (not the domestic if you can avoid it) to add
some toatiness.  Then add some very dark crystal for color and
sweetness, German 120l crystal is the most traditional, but
I'm a big fan of Belgian cara-munich in this style.  It gives
a really nice round elegant quality to this style

> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 10:19:56 EDT
> From: DrewStorms at aol.com
> Subject: Demerara=turbinado?
> 
> All these descriptions of demerara sugar sound suspiciously like turbinado
> ("sugar in the raw"): golden-brown,1-2mm granules, ....  I also know that

Nope, not the same thing.  I don't have the details, but demerara is
different.  If you are lucky enough to live in an area with a latin population
the conical chunks of partially refined sugar that you usually find
with the produce at the supermarket makes a good substitute.  Actual 
"Sugar-in-the-Raw (TM) Tubinado "style" sugar is not even really
Turbinado.  It's just sucrose and molasses.  Check the helth food
section for the real stuff.



>  
> > While it is understandable that the nationals have standards to 
lend an aura,
> > this is hardly the case for a competition in Podunk, NY, or 
whereever.  And
> > I know the judges are just as anal, because one once made a big stink about
> > my 'clear violation' sending a bottle with raised lettering.  Yet another
> > reasaon not to pay people to drink my beer.

Well, I lost the attribution of the poster, but as a judge that's
flamed people on forms for raised letters I'll respond to this...
It's clearly in the rules and all that.  IU personally don't really care
what kind of bottle that you use, if I recognize the beer I will
disqualify myself.  Like it or not, due to the contest regulations
your beer will normally be disqualified.  It can't get a ribbon, and 
it won't get to BOS.  A while back I actually fought the organizers
(I forget where) to award a ribbon to a competition newbie that submitted
his entries in AAAS bottles.  It was a fine beer and we certainly had
no idea whose beer it was.  But you bet I flamed him on the form.  I hate
to see him not get a ribbon in the next (stricter) competition that he enters
in.

PS: Remember, nobody is paying *me* to judge the beer.  You are just
helping to pay for the logistic nightmare of organizing and running
a competition.  I'm usually driving 50-150 miles and get maybe a 
sandwich out of it (and sometimes some good beers).  At least
I won't send you back comments on an oud bruin that says "too sour for style"
or "clovey, clearly infected" for a Weizen.  That's the kind of 
nonsense that annoys me when I enter beers.

Gary Rich
garyrich at kaiwan.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 09:48:40 -0700
From: Tom.Pratt at Eng.Sun.COM (Tom Pratt)
Subject: pumpkin brew

If I were to throw some pumpkin in the secondary with the intent of
coming up with a seasonal twist, how would I go about preparing the
pumpkin and how much do you suppose I should put in?

 -Tom
tpratt at sun.com
(another lazy homebrewer who's hoping someone will spare a moment
and save me from buying books, searching archives, and/or following
links all over the freakin web!)

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 12:30:15 -0400
From: WSPEIGHTS at ntia.doc.gov
Subject:  Homebrew Supplies in Annapolis, MD

For homebrewers in the Annapolis, MD area: A new Homebrew supply
store just opened up two weeks ago. Chesapeake Brewing Co. 1930
Lincoln Dr. 410-268-0450.  Knowledgable, friendly, helpful, good prices.  
Good news for me and my kind, since the closest (sp?) is miles away.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 12:17:43 CDT
From: ben at com2app.c2s.mn.org (Benjamin Butzer)
Subject: Demerara as used in Guyana

In a previous post dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE) stated:

 > The recipe looks like a pretty normal light ale, but it has one 
 > ingredient I don't know--"demerara." (not too confident about the 
 > spelling). The recipe calls for one pound of it. 
- -------------------------------------
U of M Library definition: "Demerara"
  Berbice, Demerara, and Essequibo were established by Dutch settlers in the
  early 17th century. In 1814 or 15 the three colonies were ceded to Great
  Britain, which merged them in 1931 to form the colony of British Guiana,
  the former colonies becoming counties. In 1966 British Guiana became the
  independent nation of Guyana.

I grilled my next-cubicle-neighbor, Earl, who grew up in Demerara county, about 
the product "Demerara". He says that it is brown sugar from sugar cane. It is 
not like brown sugar that we buy at the grocery store here in the United
States. Apparently U.S. brown sugar is refined white sugar that has
molasses added. The consistency of Demerara is also less grainy than that
of U.S brown sugar.

Earl says that it is added to hot water to make a sort of tea for breakfast
and supper. The other component for those meals being bread. Dinner at noon
is the main meal of the day in Guyana.

Apparently, any true brown sugar would be the equivalent of Demerara.

Benjamin Butzer (ben at com2app.c2s.mn.org)   Com Squared Systems, St. Paul, MN


Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Sep 94 18:20:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Red color/next piece of equipment/date codes

Paul asks how much roasted barley to get a reddish beer.

I suggest using one ounce and seeing if that gives enough red color
for what you are trying to make.  Anything more than about 2 ounces
starts to really flavor the beer significantly.

Offline, Norm and I talked about this a little and he suggested that
Belgian Special B grain will add reddish color.  Although I've never
tried making a pale beer with Special B (all the ones I've made up to
now were dark), it might be a better suggestion than the roasted
barley.  If you overdo the roasted barley, you could add too much
sharpness or coffee-like aroma to the beer, but Special B is a dark
crystal and its raisin-like flavor might be more appropriate even
if overdone.  With Special B, you can start at 2 ounces and work your
way up from there.

Just for reference, DeWolf-Cosysns Roasted Barley is about 557L, whereas
their Special B is about 221L.

*******
Jerry writes:
>What would have a bigger (positive) impact on my brews, a carboy to use
>as a secondary or a wort chiller (imersion type).

My vote is for the immersion chiller.  Reducing Hot Side Aeration was,
in my opinion, the biggest improvement in my beer.  Rather than buying
a glass carboy for a secondary (when you get around to it) I suggest
using the carboy for a primary for ales and a secondary for lagers.  The
cheapest place to get glass carboys, BTW, is from the water companies.
Some still do have glass available and the deposit is only about $6.00
(surely less than what they pay for them).

*******
Speaking of date codes (well, Jerry was, anyway), does anyone know
how to read the new Sierra Nevada codes?  It's a four digit code
painted onto the shoulder of the bottle.  I suspect it's the last
digit of the year followed by the day of the year (i.e. 4118 would
be the 118th day of 1994 or April 28, 1994).  Anybody know for sure?

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 11:47:21 CST  
From: "David Sapsis" <dbsapsis at nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: homegrown hop update

This is a follow-up to my post in HBD #1529 on use of wet vs. dried
homegrown hops for use as aromatic additions.  One correction I would like
to post is that the low level oil referred to as myracine is in fact spelled
myrcene, and I'd like to Al Korzonas for pointing out my mistake.  However,
I do believe that very high levels of this compound are present in
non-dried hops, and this adds a significant difference to their
aromatic profile, as long as the hops never reach high temperatures (as in
late kettle additions) or are not subjected to CO2 scrubbing (as in
additions in primary ferment).
As it has been about 20 days since we added the two hop forms to the serving
vessels, the differences between the two Liberty clones has become
significantly greater.  As I noted, aromatic differences were very evident
early, and these differences remain, with a generally lower level of
"dry-hopping" detectable in the wet version, and the perfumey, somewhat
vegetal nose persisting.  However, flavor differences that were only
relatively minor after one week, have become very pronounced over time.
Distinct flavors of pine/citrus, somewhat reminiscent of grapefruit are all
over the wet-hopped  sample.  These differences, are to my palate, quite
objectionable, but I infer this to be mostly due to conditioning (by this I
mean habituation, not carbonation).  That is, if all hops used were treated
like these, then these flavors would be expected, and consequently probably
be more desireable to me.  In any event, the results of this experiment
indicate significant differences in both the nose and mouth of identically
treated beers with the only independent variable being hop moisture content.
Noting that piney/citrus compounds are a major group of the aromatic oils,
it would be interesting to find out where they  lie in their relative
volatility.  I plan on posing this question to Gail Nickerson.

On another note, also relating to the use of wet hops as presented in
hop.faq, hops are *not* 80% water; that is, there is not 4 times the mass of
free water as that mass leftover after drying.  Consequently, the suggestion
of using 6 times as much mass of wet hops as dry ones is way off base.  All
hops are measured for moisture using a dry weight basis, so 100% MC
indicates that hops at this level of moisture are one-half water.  Thus,
assuming  all other things equal between wet and dry cones, one would use
twice as much fresh, wet hops as an equivelent mass of dry ones.  I suspect
that some of the reports relating to harshness from use of wet hops may be
due to using about three times the equivelent measure, and then drawing
comparisons!
Also, in the hop.faq there is a fairly strong indication that various hop
varieties are for bittering, and others are strictly for aromatics.  My
experience is that some hops are really quite well suited to both, and that
this is not restricted to using conventionally aromatic hops for bittering
(e.g., Cascade).  I have had excellent results using Nugget for aromatics,
and I think that my suggestion for reserving prescious homegrown hops for
aromatic uses applies to all varieties, not just those used by convention.
Although the majority of high-apha hops were indeed developed for their
bittering capabilities, many brewers I am aware of use them in a variety of
circumstances.  I hope that all you homegrowers out there experiment with
the use of your harvest, and post the results, particularly if they expand
on the generally accepted practices that have been laid down.  The art and
science of brewing, like all the universe, is dynamic, and that's what makes
it interesting.
Cheers,
David Sapsis        dbsapsis at nature.berkeley.edu
Wildland Fire Research Laboratory
Dept. Environmental Science, Policy, and Management
U C Berkeley
voice: (510)642-8053       fax:(510) 643-5438
                           "From fire everything is created, and in
                            fire everything ends up."
                                            --Heracleitus (502 B.C.)

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:25:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: TWETZEL at EXODUS.VALPO.EDU
Subject: Brewing Schools?

Greetings Beer-L'ers,
In addition to being a newbie on the 'Net, I'm a newbie to homebrewing. So far
though, my 2 batches (one pils and one IPA) haven't caused any physiological
damage to me--my cat however, still prefers milk.

My question: Is there such a thing as a Brewing School, and if so, where? Does 
anyone know of a source of info on this? I'm trying to find a current copy of
Zymurgy to look for ads about such things, but can't find the magazine locally.
Nonetheless, forgive me if this sort of thing is common knowledge.

TIA,

Pretzelmann  <--- notice the German spelling  :-)
(TWetzel at exodus.valpo.edu)

p.s. you may post privately if you wish.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:33:05 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Carboy Diem

Dear Friends, there has been an awful lot of traffic lately dealing in one
way or another with glass carboys--the perils of hauling them around with
or without handles/milk crates/what have you, horrible stories of
accidental death and dismemberment when they break, and more.  I wish to
paint a big bullseye on my forehead by saying: the only *real* advantage
glass fermenting vessels have over plastic ones is that they don't
scratch, hence little bugs can't find a home in scratches and avoid death
during sanitation.  I submit that plastic is better anyway.  (Let me
stress that I am talking about high-density plastic here, not the plastic
Sparkletts bottles that are shaped like glass carboys.) One: they don't
break.  Period.  Two: they are much easier to clean--you take the top off
and reach on in there.  It is completely trivially simple to ensure total
cleanliness if you a) clean them *immediately* after you use them and b)
use a soft rag or sponge (which won't scratch the plastic) to do any
wiping down that is necessary.  Me, I usually use my fingers to wipe away
any yeast ring remains etc, and because I do it when everything is still
wet, it comes right off.  No scratching from my fingers.  Three: every
plastic fermenter I have ever seen has handles of some sort built in. 
Moving them is simple and safe.  Four: most plastic fermenters have
spigots in the bottom (if they don't it's easy to install one).  No
siphoning required at any time during the brew process once the wort/beer
is in one of these.  Yes, I siphon from my brewkettle (chilled in a very
big laundry sink) into the fermenter to avoid bringing all the break
material along, but that's it.  Transferring to secondary and bottling
bucket is a snap--just push the plastic tubing onto the spigot, put the
full bin on the counter and the empty one on the floor, and use the
spigot.  The bottling wand fits totally snugly right into the spigots,
which makes bottling much faster and easier--you just bring the bottle up
to the wand, raise it until the tip gets to the bottom of the bottle,
raise it a bit more so the beer flows, and lower the bottle when full. I'm
a big fan of letting gravity do the work. 

Even if you do eventually scratch your plastic fermenter, they are not that
expensive.  Get a new one.  I also will admit that if one is planning a brew
that must stay in a vessels for many months (e.g. some barley wines and old
ales) then oxidation of the brew through the plastic can be a real
disadvantage.  But I reckon most brews made by most homebrewers spend no more
than a couple/few weeks in the fermenters before bottling/kegging, and in
those cases this would not be a problem.

I am sure there are many reading this who are saying to themselves something
of the form: But most of the big prize-winners ferment in glass.  Like a
similar argument for liquid yeast or using secondaries, it is those brewers
whose technique is good who win the prizes (see a recent post by Jeff Renner
about the first-timer whose augmented kit beer took BOS), and this need have
nothing to do with the material their fermenters are made of.  I don't know
enough fellow brewers personally, in the flesh, to try this, but will any of
you prize-winning, glass-fermenting HBDers step forward and split a batch into
your glass carboy and a friend's borrowed plastic fermenter, and see just how
different the resulting beers are?  I predict that you will not be able to
tell them apart.  My conclusion: glass isn't worth the risk of bodily injury
and the hardships of handling and cleaning.

In anticipation of much refutation, Cheers, Dave in Sydney

- --
"Life's a bitch, but at least there's homebrew" ---Norm Pyle
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 18:14:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Greg Ames <tga at maelstrom.Timeplex.COM>
Subject: Help needed with SS keg plumbing

I'm putting together a "water-heater-in-a-SS-keg" boiler, and need
some help selecting stainless steel fittings for the drain and element
connection.

My plan is to drill a 1/2" hole near the bottom, and weld in a 1/2" X
2" threaded SS nipple (to attach a ball valve).  An inch or two higher,
I'm going to drill a 1" hole and weld in a 1" SS half female coupler, to
hold the heating element (it has screw threads and will screw into the
coupler).

After some hunting, I found a large plumbing supply shop that could
get SS parts for me.  Now here's the problem: they need to know what
_kind_ of stainless I want!  The guy at the supply place told me their
supplier carries different types, recommended for different
applications.  I told him I was welding to 304L SS, but that didn't
help much; he didn't know what kind of stainless they were made of,
just what they were used for.  Can anyone give me an idea of what to
do now?  What have other people done when faced with different types
of SS fittings?  Or am I the only one to be so lucky? :-(

While I'm asking questions, can anyone answer these:

1. Is it OK to use a threaded brass ball valve on the drain?
   Is brass OK for food use?  Why do they use brass and not copper,
   anyway?
2. Do I need a special, high-temp, food grade valve (do normal
   ones use low-temp gaskets, or nasty lubricants, etc?)

TIA,
Greg
tga at maelstrom.timeplex.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 20:10:00 GMT
From: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com (Jeff Guillet)
Subject: Anchor Spruce Beer


Just to let you know:

My friend and I went to the Anchor Steam Brewery tour a couple of months 
ago where we bought a twelve pack sampler.  It contained two bottles 
each of Steam, Porter, Wheat, Stout, 1993 Christmas Ale, and a Spruce.

Last night we sampled one of the bottles of the Spruce.  I will reserve 
the other bottle for my next time I need to get the toilet bowl *really* 
clean.

 -=Jeff=-
- ---
* CMPQwk #1.4* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Baier <BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU>
Subject: Need Victoria BC Ale Fest Info

I have mislaid the wonderful information previously
posted about the CAMRA festival to be held in Victoria,
BC in late October.

Would some kind soul please send me a private copy?

Many thanks.

Tom Baier - Tacoma, WA - BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU


Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Sep 94 18:08:33 MDT (Thu)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Origins of MEADE

"Darren L. Ward" (FSAC-FCD) <dward at PICA.ARMY.MIL> asked:
> 	I'm interested on looking up the origins of MEADE...

Assuming you mean "mead" (no "e"), info follows just below.  But first,
just to cover one odd possibility, if you've run across a product made by
Bunratty of Ireland and sold in the US as "MEADE", and that's what you're
referring to, the origin is a bit of very recent marketing absurdity.  This
MEADE is a trademarked name for an ordinary white grape wine, with honey
added afterward to make it sweet.  This product is unrelated to mead, and
only uses the related spelling (which is one of the archaic spellings of
mead) as a marketing hook.

[That was the objective side.  Subjectively, it's cheap white wine with
enough honey to cover the wine's faults and make it cloying, sold at a high
price by marketing-scam confusion to create a historical hook.  The BATF
should have tossed it out of the country for its deceptive label.]

But if you're after the origins of "mead", that being a mixture of honey
and water, fermented...
>...Is there any
> reference material out there that is readily available, any old postings
> in someones private email library?  Thank you for any help.

There is one reference that discusses the origins in painstaking (in fact,
painful) detail:
	Brewing Mead (Wassail! In Mazers of Mead)
	Lt. Col Robert Gayre and Charlie Papazian
	ISBN 0-937381-00-4
The first 3/4 of the book is a reprint of Gayre's work of 1948...which is
quite detailed but a bit stuffy and academic in style.  (It's what you'd
expect of a "scholarly work" of 45 years ago.)  You should be able to find
this book in any good homebrew supply shop; various mail-order suppliers
also carry it.  It's interesting to brewers as well; it traces how mead
came first and why/how/when it was supplanted by beer in the north and wine
in the south.

Another interesting source of historical info, although tied to one place
and time in history, is _The_Closet_of_the_Eminently_Learned_Sir_Kenelme_
_Digby,_Knight,_wherein_is_discovered_... [the title goes on and on]. 
This is from 17th century England, published posthumously and revised a
couple times.  You might be able to find it in microform in a good
university library...start your search with "Digby" or "Digbie".
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 17:38 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587 at mcimail.com>
Subject: A Very Satisfied Customer

I've just had yet another great experience with certain mail-order homebrew
supplies shop, Brewer's Resource of Camarillo CA.  I won't waste any
bandwidth with the details of the pleasure-causing support and assistance
that they provided, past OR present, but I do want to let y'all know that
these folks do a great job.  I've tried many, and read 20+ catalogs, and
they are the best.  Phone (800) 827-3983.  No connection, just a very
satisfied customer.

Jack Skeels
JSKEELS at MCIMAIL.COM


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 22:04:49 
From: aaron.banerjee at his.com
Subject: DC AREA BREWERS


  
Just wondering if there were any Beer or Winemakers in the Washington, DC
area. Please respond to me directly at:
  
        aaron.banerjee at his.com
  
Thanks

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 23:32:01 EDT
From: RaceBrewer at aol.com
Subject: yeast cell lifespan

Hi Gang,   I have an odd question for the microbiologists out there.  Does
anyone know the lifespan of a single yeast cell under ideal conditions?  Not
the lifespan of a culture or how long it will survive in a dormant
condition... But just simply, from birth to death, under normal conditions,
how long will one of Man's Best Friends live?  (Technical references
appreciated)
Sorry, no prizes for the correct answer... Just my thanks.
John "RaceBrewer at aol.com" Mulvihill


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 22:02:09 PDT
From: fjl at dpci.sannet.gov (Frank J. Leers)
Subject: steel cut oats

Fellow Brewers,


What is the general opinion on the usage of steel cut oats in lieu of
rolled oats.  I know rolled oats need no gelatinization due to the
rolling process, but what about steel cut oats?  I have a pound of these
and they look to be coarsley ground such as an unmalted wheat would look after
a pass through the grain mill.  

I am brewing an Oatmeal Stout on Sun.  so if I don't get a definitive
answer by then I'll gelatinize them by boil/simmer the same as I would rice.....

 -frank




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 13:40:39 CDT
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com>
Subject: Weisen Experiment

 .int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

 Recently I did an experiment while brewing an extract weisen. I am looking
 for any comments on why things went the way they did. The experiment was
 to brew a higher sg brew and dilute it by adding 1/3 water at bottling. This
 way I could make a 5 gallon batch and end up with 7.5 gallons of beer.
 Basic recipe from memory was 1 6.6 lb Ireks Weisen, 4 lb Laaglander light
 LME, Hallertauer plugs, 3068 yeast in a 5 gallon glass primary/secondary.
 I do full wort boils. One thing I noticed early on was the beer appeared
 much darker than I would expect it to be. I am sure I did not burn the extract
 as I added it at a water temp of around 150, as I usually do, then mixed well.
 At bottling it was only slightly darker than expected. Ok, the big question.
 The beer was VERY HEAVILY clove flavored, almost intolerable. No sign of any
 banana. I was expecting heavier phenolics from the yeast, that was one reason
 I did it this way. So I continued on and diluted and bottled, added some
 Yeast lab american ale yeast to the bottling bucket and RDWHAHB. The beer after
 aging is still heavily clove, but not as badly as it appeared at bottling.
 So any idea why the mega-emphasis on clove flavors. Oh yeah, fermentation temp
 was around 70-71 degrees. Email comments please, I will summarize.

 One other item... anyone out there notice a flavor similar to excess aromatic
 malt usage in their beers that used either brown sugar ( belgian trippel )
 or molasses ( porter )? I used not one single grain of aromatic in these 2 beer
 s and ended up with similar flavors. The only common element appears to be
 the use of brown sugar/molasses in each. The belgian is doing well ( less overc
 arbonation due to sugar ) but the porter is currently not enjoyable, but may be
 with more aging. Again, email comments, I will summarize. TIA!!

 'One mans beer is another mans BudMilCoors'

 Mike Teed


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 12:51:06 CDT
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com>
Subject: Hoptech / Celis

 .int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

 I have also tried the Hoptech flavors, specifically Cherry and Raspberry. I bot
 tled a batch using the cherry, and agree wholly with the comments in Tuesdays
 HBD ( sorry, cant recall the posters name ). The raspberry is good with a few
 drops in the bottom of a glass, havent tried bottling with it.

 The cherry does make a very good sparkling water though.

 I read with some amusement the distribution agreement with Celis, my experience
 is that they need a lot more beer, not distribution. My single case order has
 been back ordered for 10 weeks now with no end in sight ( Celis White ).
 Hope they send me my case before everyone else gets theirs ahead of me.

 Hoppy brewing,
 Mike Teed


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 8:06:42 EDT
From: abaucom at fester.swales.com
Subject: thanks...

To everyone who responded to my artificially carbonating problem...thanks...
The response was great.

I believe that I was on the right track (I had the keg  at ~25psi) but I didn't
shake the keg. Once I did that, the beer mopped up the CO2 like crazy.  I 
guess without shaking, the beer will take a loooong time to absorb CO2. 

Sort of like the inverse of shaking up a can of soda...the CO2 comes out of
solution real quick but under big CO2 pressure, shaking it causes the CO2 to
go into solution real quick!

thanks again...
 -Andrew

PS...beer tastes much better carbonated!

- ------
Andrew W. Baucom, abaucom at fester.swales.com

"If I don't learn it the hard way...then I'll keep trying until I do!" -me

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 08:12:54 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Re: Hops in starters; autoclaving

Seth L. Betaharon asks: 

>Finally, I have tried several times to make malt extract agar to culture
>yeast on.  I start by combining the agar, distilled water, and malt
>extract and bringing them to a boil.  Then, I pour the solution into test
>tubes and autoclave for 15 minutes.  When I remove the tubes, there is a
>sediment in the tubes that will not dissolve with shaking.  Is this a
>normal result of autoclaving malt extract, or am I doing something wrong? 

No, you are not doing anything wrong, and this is normal.  It won't hurt 
anything.  This is the same as "hot break" you get when boiling your wort.

>When I autoclave my starter cultures, will I have this problem then?  If
>so, will this affect the performance of my starters? 

Of course you won't autoclave the "cultures," but the wort (malt extract)
for use in making the cultures (starters).  (The word "culture" implies 
that you have already innoculated).  And yes, you will still get this 
sediment, but it won't hurt anything.  You can decant from it if you wish, 
but I don't usually bother.

Best regards,
Keith Frank (keithfrank at dow.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 09:32:08 EDT
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Steam (tm) beer

In HBD #1534, Kevin Kane writes (by way of Jim Busch):

>I've noticed that anyone posting, describing, brewing, etc, anything 
>about "steam beer" will religiously note that this has been trademarked
>by  Anchor brewing.  Papazian gives a brief explanation about it in his
>book.

>	Here's my problem:  I was recently reading the novel _McTeague_
>by  Norton and ran across a paragraph where the doomed hero enjoys a
>pitcher of  steam beer with his friend, Marcus.  In light of some of
>the bandwidth on  trademarks like "Boston Ale", etc., how does this fit
>in with Anchor's fine  brew? What I'd like is a little more historical
>information, if possible.By  the way, the novel takes place in San
>Francisco.

McTeague (by Frank Norris, not Norton) was written in about 1900.  At
the time, steam beer would have been very common in SF.

By the time Fritz Maytag bought Anchor, Anchor Steam was the last
remaining steam beer.  So Maytag was able to trademark the term.

 -Allan Rubinoff  <rubinoff at bbn.com>

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 08:07:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: MELOTH MICHAEL S <meloth at spot.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Scoth Ale Question

I need some suggestions.  Just over six weeks ago I pitched my heavy
scotch ale (yeast was Wyeast's Scotch ale variety).  O.G. was 1.048,
temperature has been a constant 64F.  The air lock is still bubbling every
1-2 minutes.  Yesterday I took a reading and found the gravity to be
1.022.  My receipe calls for a finishing gravity of 1.008-1.012.  I'm
concerned that the extensive time fermenting will result in off-flavors,
as the wort has been sitting on a great deal of spent yeast cells for six
weeks.  I am cautious about frequently re-racking the wort to remove the
cells as I run the risk of contamination and oxidization. 

Question:  Is there any way to speed up fermentation safely?  I asked my 
local brew supply store and they said to wait it out.  Are there any 
other suggestions?  Six weeks seems like a long time to wait, espcially 
since the wort is so far from finishing.  Send replies privately if you wish.

 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *   *   *
 Michael S. Meloth           Phone:  303-492-5204
 University of Colorado      FAX:    303-492-7090
 Campus Box 249              Internet:  meloth at spot.colorado.edu
 Boulder, CO  80309
 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *  *


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:13:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian A Nummer <BAN5845 at tntech.edu>
Subject: Starters n' such

Seth B. writes, " Aside from serving as a
preservative, is there any reason to add hops?"  No.  Its a matter of personal
preference.

"Also, does it matter what kind of malt extract I use:  light, medium, or
dark?"  Again the answer is NO, but using light MX gives a better view of the
yeast.  

"Finally, I have tried several times to make malt extract agar to culture
yeast on.  I start by combining the agar, distilled water, and malt
extract and bringing them to a boil.  Then, I pour the solution into test
tubes and autoclave for 15 minutes.  When I remove the tubes, there is a
sediment in the tubes that will not dissolve with shaking.  Is this a
normal result of autoclaving malt extract, or am I doing something wrong?
When I autoclave my starter cultures, will I have this problem then?  If
so, will this affect the performance of my starters?"

The sediment is trub.  Trub will not effect the cultures.  If you want to
remove it you have to boil the wort before agar addition for one hour
just the way you would for making beer.  Allow the trub to settle, then
remove the clear wort, add agar, and autoclave.

Apologies for any problems with this e-mail.  My text editor is fritzing.

Dr. Brian Nummer
Head Start Brewing Cultures.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:19:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Kegging

 From *Jeff* Renner

abaucom at fester.swales.com says his weizen, which he primed with with one 
cup of malt and was carbonated when he tapped it, has gone flat.  He then 
asks for details on force carbonating, which have been provided by 
several corespondents.  However, no one has picked up on the unasked 
question:  "Why did the keg go flat?"  Andrew, either you didn't keep a 
top pressure during dispensing (maybe 10psi) to keep it from going flat, 
or you have a leak in your system.  Those cornies are notorious for 
that.  However, since you are asking about force carbonation, why not 
just skip the priming entirely.  It should result in less (or no) 
sediment, making your keg transportable to parties, wakes, etc.  (I 
suppose stout would be more appropriate for a wake.)  Also, priming adds 
about 1.003-4 to your gravity, resulting in that much more alcohol, which 
you may or may not find desirable.  I don't need it.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, believing myself to be my wife's computer ;-) 

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 11:35:29 EDT
From: "Terence McGravey {91942}" <tpm at swl.msd.ray.com>
Subject: Harpoon Octoberfest


  The Harpoon Brewery of Boston will hold its annual Octoberfest party
the weekend of September 30, October 1 & 2 at the brewery. The party
will take place in the brewery and outside under a tent - rain or shine.
German sausage and other food will be served and German style bands
will perform. Admission is $6.00. If anybody is interested I can post
additional info to the HBD.

  Terry McGravey
  tpm at swl.msd.ray.com
  e-mail okay.


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1535, 09/24/94