FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  I'm not NOMAD, and I can't sterilize fer beans ("Steven W. Smith")
  Caledonian Brewery Trip (/R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/)
  Dry Hopping in the keg. (JoeG701884)
  Firestone/Samuel(tm) Adams(tm) Mittelfrueh(tm) Hops(tm) (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Brewing research & hops (Henry E Kilpatrick)
  Lambic Digest (BrewerLee)
  Alergies (r.mau2)
  New Club (John_Degrazia)
  Re: Hole Size in the Whirpool Siphon Ring? (Gary Bell)
  Hop discussions:  LEAVES-not!/ BUSHES- not!/ PT wood- not! (COYOTE)
  Yeast Starters- revisited (COYOTE)
  Mail-Bombin' Morons (Richard A Childers)
  Re: Wife, pissed off variety ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Insulated cooler use ("Seth L. Betaharon")
  Are AHA guidelines a joke? ("Ulick Stafford")
  Peak Flavor and Expiration of Homebrew (Glenn E. Gearhard)
  oak spoons, B-Brite ("Charles S. Jackson")
  dry hopping (ANDY WALSH)
  hop seeds (Mike  Schrempp)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:52:44 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: I'm not NOMAD, and I can't sterilize fer beans

  I had an interesting brewing experience recently.  I was making a pretty 
generic wheat/honey ale using Wyeast Belgian Abbey (don't have the number).  
After secondary fermentation was done, I decided it was *Boooring*, added 5 
pounds of strawberries and let it ferment out.  Still pretty pedestrian, so I 
went to my local grocer and bought 5 1/2 pounds of fresh peaches :-)

  After racking off the peaches 2 weeks later (geez, not even pantyhose work 
well with *that* much goo) I let it sit for it's third "secondary" and 
discovered that I had a Wild Yeast Infection (oh no! the shame).  It 
manifested itself as a scary-looking layer of white bubbly scum on the surface
of the beer.  It seems to have added a rather appropriate sourness that 
complements the peaches nicely - I didn't have to add the lactic acid that I 
bought for it :-)

  Anyway, the info part of this monologue:  after bottling, each bottle has 
it's own mini-scum up in the neck.  I discovered that if I jostle the bottle a 
bit before it goes into the 'fridge the wild yeast will settle to the bottom of 
the bottle with it's tame brethren. No more icky lookin' scum floaties to 
scare the timid.

  If anyone is actually interested in the recipe, mail me.  I *like* it, YMMV.
  _,_/|   
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith - Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu
          If you're not a part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 16:33:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: Caledonian Brewery Trip

HBD people,

I mentioned I would post a description of 
my visit to the Caledonian Brewery
in Edinburgh, Scotland on Sept. 27, 1994, 
so here it is.  My wife and I went
there on a Tuesday afternoon to meet our 
tour guide, a Mr. George Thomson (no
"p").  He was a retired brewer who mainly 
did the tours and some brewing when
needed.  The other people who were supposed 
to be on the tour, never showed
up, so Mr. Thomson spend about 2.5 hours 
with just us.  The brewery is in a
fairly old building since it was 
established in 1869.  It has changed hands
many times recently, and I cannot remember 
the details but it is once again
independent.  It makes cask conditioned 
ales and bottled ales and has won
several CAMRA awards in the last several 
years.
There was a serious fire in the brewery in 
June of this year that burnt down
the malting area and mill area and almost 
penetrated the brewery proper.
Luckily the fireman were able to contain 
the fire so the brewery was saved.
They now must buy their grain premalted and 
crushed.  I believe they use
mostly English 2-row barley from the south 
of Great Britain.  He made a point
of saying they did not add sugar to their 
wort. The water used to be obtained
from a well right under the brewery, but 
drilling for shale oil polluted the
groundwater.  They now use city water which 
I think comes from mountain
resevoirs. They obtain their hops from all 
over the world, and use old, poor
looking hops for bittering.  For aroma and 
flavor they use better grade hops
from California, New Zealand, and Eastern 
Europe as well as England if I
remember correctly. They use specially 
grown organic hops for their Golden
Promise Ale, an organic beer.  We went into 
the hop room which contained to
big bales of hops, and Mr. Thomson told us 
to crush some in our hands and
smell them.  They were wonderful!!   They 
use pretty much a single step
infusion mash system and have rakes in the 
mash turns, however,  they do not
make use of them.  They use open copper 
kettles (I was told the oldest still
in operation) that were originally coal 
fired, but now use natural gas.  Mr
Thomson told me they use what is 
essentially a hop-back or bed of hops to
filter the wort, but I did not see this.  I 
do not know if they worry about
hot-side aeration or if air is excluded 
from the hop filter.  The wort is
then cooled using a counter-current system 
in which they reuse the heated
water.  They use large stainless steel open 
fermenters with apparently no
concern about sterile air.  The tanks are 
quite large and deep--I would
estimate about 10x12x12  feet (width, 
length, depth), and they have cooling
pipes running through the fermenter to 
adjust the temperature. They skim the
kruesen at least once/day.  After 
fermentation ( I can't remember the length
of time but I think it was about a week) 
they save the yeast and compress it
again for reuse. [When the yeast is too 
old, we were told it was sent to the
Scotch distillery!] I believe they do a 
rough filtering but I am not sure on
this point.  For bottled beer they do 
pasterize it. They mainly send out
cask-conditioned ale which is conditioned 
in the keg for about a few days
(again my memory is not great). They use 
isinglass for fining.

After the tour, we had a few beers and met 
with some of the workers who were
relaxing with a warm one after a hard day's 
work.  We tried their 70 and 80 s
bitters which were both quite good, but our 
favorite was the R&D Deuchars
India pale ale.  It was malty, smooth, well 
hopped, and beautifully balanced.
Mr. Thomson gave us each a bottle of 
MacAndrews Scotch Ale to take home, and
this tour was one of the highlights of our 
trip to Scotland.   Mr Thomson was
a wonderful guide and gentleman.
I apologize for any errors I might have 
made, but I did not take notes on the
tour, and I could not always understand the 
accent !

Andy Kligerman


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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 18:46:32 -0400
From: JoeG701884 at aol.com
Subject: Dry Hopping in the keg.

>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 10:38:41 EDT
>From: The new moon sky rises in the cool October night deep in the White
>Mountains  20-Oct-1994 1034 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
>Subject: dryhopping advice here

>on another subject:

>those who dry-hop in the keg: is it ok to leave the hops in the keg for
>up to 1-2 months?  or, should they be removed after a few weeks?

>jc

I left a hop bag (loaded with sanitized glass marbles) in a keg for 5 months.
 It was no problem, and the beer got better and better.  The hops I used were
Perle, but I don't know if that is relevant.  Worst problem was cleaning the
hop leaves off the marbles for next use.
Also, on the quality of hops discussion, I bought the above mentioned Perle
from Freshhops and I could not have been happier.  A year later, I still have
some Freshhops Hallertauer in my freezer and it still looks good (nice and
green) and smells great. 

Joe Greco
"Any Bud is bad Bud"
JoeG701884 at AOL.COM



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Date: 21 Oct 94 17:27:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Firestone/Samuel(tm) Adams(tm) Mittelfrueh(tm) Hops(tm)

Gordon writes:
>Not so fast Al. My "A" kegs are all Firestone and they are all ball
>lock. I picked them up from my local Pepsi distributor for $10 each.
>They were getting rid of them so they could go all Cornelius to save on
>spares cost and such. Maybe not all Firestone are created equal. 

Indeed, that's what I meant.  The Firestone ball-lock fittings are a 9/16-18
(or 11/16-18 on older models) thread for the gas and a 5/8-18 (or 3/4-18 on
older models) thread for the liquid.  The Firestone pin-lock fittings are
9/16-18 (or 3/4-14) for the gas (which will swap), but is 9/16-18 (or 3/4-14)
for the liquid (which is the problem).  The same is true for John Wood and
Alloy Products kegs.  On the other hand, both the ball- and pin-lock fittings
on Cornelius kegs are 9/16-18 on both gas and liquid.

Now you may say, "Hey! Why not use the 9/16-18 Cornelius fittings on the
Firestone tanks.  I've tried and the problem was that the seat was a
different height -- i.e.  no matter how hard I cranked down on the fitting,
there was always some leakage from where the fitting met the tank.  Not a
*little* leakage -- so much you could HEAR gas hissing.

By the way, if you do order these things I've called fittings above, you
want to ask for a "tank plug assembly."

***********
Michael writes:
>I read a similar article in "Midwest Beer Notes". Jim Koch of BBC (TM) states
>that he will make 1200 pounds of the rare Hallertau Mittelfrueh hops available
>to homebrewers. The price is $12 per 400 grams. One package per customer. He
>is doing this because several years ago he rejected a shipment of the hops
>due to poor qualitity only to find out that the shipment was sold to
>homebrewers. Quote: "I think homebrewers deserve more respect and better
>hops."
> 
>I looked through all of my books and was unable to find a reference for
>the Mittelfrueh variety of Hallertau. Is anyone else familiar with
>Mittelfrueh?

Hallertauer Mittelfrueh is indeed the most rare and prized variety of
Noble hops.  They are dwindling in supply due to the fact that they are
very prone to a hop disease (Verticulum Wilt if memory serves correctly)
and thus yields are very low.  (As an aside, Mount Hood, Liberty and
Crystal were bred to imitate Hallertauer Mittelfrueh and in terms of
chemical analysis, the Liberty appears to be very, very close.  I've
never smelled actual Hallertauer Mittelfrueh, but suspect that Crystal,
while it may be a great and interesting hop, seems too spicy to be close
to any Hallertauer variety, in my opinion).

I have been boycotting BBC products since I heard about his lawsuits
against a couple of, let's say, much smaller breweries and was tiring
of all the lies he puts in his ads (like his grandfathers century-old
recipe -- Grandpa? Joe Owades -- brewery consultant), but I know he makes
great beer and quite a selection too.  I would like to believe that Koch
is done suing everyone and flying straight, but I'm still skeptical.

Could this hop sale just be a ploy to get on good terms with homebrewers,
a big market for his beer, one that contains quite a few (me included) that
continue to spread the truth about his previous actions?  Is he done
suing people?  One of his recent ads contained no lies, as far as I know,
just one flub ("the fruity esters of the yeast" -- in a lager???) He has
been sending free T-shirts and hats to several HB competitions I've been
to, so he's trying very hard to get us to like him.  Can I start drinking
SA again, Chuck?

Al.

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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Henry E Kilpatrick <hkilpatr at mason1.gmu.edu>
Subject: Brewing research & hops

I would appreciate it if those of you who own or manage craft brewing 
operations would contact me.  Among other things, I'm putting together some 
research on the info highway & craft brewers.

I noted a few posts in the past couple of days on hops vines.  I have a 
Hallartau vine that is at least 5 years old.  The past summer was very 
hot, but also very wet & the vine didn't produce any cones.  Does anyone 
have any notion as to the reasons.

Buddy Kilpatrick
hkilpatr at gmu.edu

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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 23:48:56 -0400
From: BrewerLee at aol.com
Subject: Lambic Digest

I'm looking for anyone who is a member of the Lambic digest to give me some
info regarding a subscription.  The address I was given doesn't work.

E-mail is probably better, TIA.

 -Lee Bussy
 BrewerLee at aol.com


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Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 17:34:00 UTC
From: r.mau2 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Alergies

Earlier this week I had asked if home brewing will generate any unusual
amounts of:
 
Aspergillus
 Candida
 Penicillum
 Alternaria
 Caladosporium
 
The following is a summary of the most usefull replies:
 -------------
 A clean ferment will yield none of these common contaminants.  Cleanup as
 you indicated should be done well as a pile of spent mash just sitting
 exposes outside will start to decompose.  Most of the decomposition will be
 done by fungi of the kinds you mentioned.  As long as the mash is put in
 the trash or composted you'll have no problems.  Just relax and make a
 homebrew.  You have nothing to worry about.  Saccharomyces yeast is not at
 all related to Candida yeasts.  They are totally different beasts.
 
Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca)
 --------------
 . . . clean up afterwards - molds like wort, but are seldom a problem in
beer because they are aerobic.
 
Ulick Stafford
 --------------
 
Thanks for the replies.
 
 

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Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 12:12:20 -0800
From: John_Degrazia at f1004.n202.z1.fidonet.org
Subject: New Club


Hello. My name is John DeGrazia, and I am the "Clubmeister" of San
Diego's newest Home Brewing Club. We are sponsored by Ninkasi's Home
Brew Supply Store and really think that we have a lot to offer our
members. We promote extract and all grain methods and highly support
the Micro Brewing revolution. Drop me a line for more information.
We'd be glad to have you join us!
Joh

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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:15:48 -0700
From: gbell at ix.netcom.com (Gary Bell)
Subject: Re: Hole Size in the Whirpool Siphon Ring?


Jeff Frane writes:

>I specifically recommended using the smallest possible 
>bit and drilling teeny, tiny holes in the under-surface 
>of the loop. 

God, I hate it when things get this technical. Would that
English or Metric?

G.
"Quis dolor cui dolium?" 

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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 11:40:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Hop discussions:  LEAVES-not!/ BUSHES- not!/ PT wood- not!

 Chris Lyons <Chris.Lyons at analog.com>  and others have discussed:
 ...dry hopping with leaf hops ...

I'm about to shout- so stuff some cotton in your ears if you're sensitive.


BREWERS USE FLOWERS/WHOLE/FLAKE/CONES  FROM HOPS.  NOT THE LEAVES!!!!!!!
DO NOT REFER TO HOP USE AS USING LEAVES FROM HOPS.  THERE IS NO BITTERING
OR AROMATIC QUALITY (ALPHA ACIDS) IN THE LEAVES OF HOP PLANTS!!!!!!!!

(there....I feel better now.  It's been said before.  Now- it's done again)

Cheap ascii drawing to illustrate:

    ------------------------------------   Vine (or bine- if you will)
               |     \
               |      \
             ------    \
            /      \    \            Ok- so my artwork is lame.
            \/\  /\/   /--\          Ascii drawing sucks (huh huh- heh heh)
               \/     /\  /\         But maybe you get the idea.
              Leaf    \/\/\/         Look at a REAL text for REAL photos.
                      /\/\/\         Just DON'T call them LEAVES.
                       \/\/          I'll be glad to snail mail you hop leaves
                       Cone          if you want to try them in your brew!
   

As for the bush vines discussion:
    Vines will grow on whatever the hay you give them to grow on.
Hops are sun-lovers, like most southern californains.   If the climbing
surface does not allow for maximal sun exposure to leaf surfaces the 
production of the plant will suffer.  Easy to compare- look at a plant
that gets sunlight ALL day, vs. one which is shaded for half the day.
You WILL see a difference. (assuming like varieties, soil, water...etc)

If you live in a condo (1. I'm sorry for you, been there done that, 2. at
least you probably have a hot-tub to share with all your neighbors,  3. with
anyluck, some of your neighbors are foxy vixens with big hooters wearing 
scanty little bikinis and acting VERY friendly towards you, and your hops)

or somewhere else where space is limited- and height is a problem:
then Yeah sure...growing hops on a fence, or a low trellis, or climbing
over an evergreen bush may be your only option.  Go for it!  Some fresh hops
are better than no fresh hops at all.  Plus- they are fun plants!
I've seen a grape vine on an evergreen bush which produced tremendously.
(and made a fine 10 gallons of red wine!)

BUT...if you are planning to dedicate a space to hops- consider giving them
some height to roam.   Here's some of the advantages and reasons:

    1.  Sun - as stated.  The more exposed leaf surface the more production.
    If you doubt me (as well you are entitled to) examine some of the hop
    cultivation techniques in the Yakima valley and Oregon hop farms.
    They are about 20 feet up, then over wires spaced well apart allowing
    for lots of sunshine, and breathing space.

    2.  Get them off the ground.  Most of the pests and vermin likely to
    harass and infest your hops will start from the ground and work their 
    way up.  Included are spider mites, ants, fungus rots, and others.
    Japanese beetles, aphids, and other fliers are exempt from this concern. 

    3.  Room-  to get AT the hop CONES themselves, you need to work around
    the LEAVES and trust me- those buggers can get pretty bushy- even when
    grown upright.  You need the space to be able to access the hops.

I have NO problem with the trellis concept, in fact I plan to implement 
it myself (next spring) for the ever popular Cascade.  But-  why not take
advantage of the qualities of a vine, and provide a bit of shade.  Don't
try to make a climber act like a bush, give 'em a little height to play.
Make an arbor frame for them to climb over, or erect poles at least 8' high
then let them work laterally to make a nice overhead trellis/lattice you
can sit under and enjoy a bit of shade in the midst of a sweltering summer.
If you want them against a house, run strings up to the roof-line, or
put up a latticework and they'll make some shade for the house-  Cool huh!

just some ideas.  Maybe I'll write an article for Zymurgy on growing hops.
Then I can include some REAL pictures, not crappy ascii diagrams!
BTW:  The 20' pole/ string-pulley system worked great.  All harvested and
waiting for the leaves to drop before cutting them off.  Was able to pull
them down, and back up- for several pickings to optimize ripeness.

***
>From: JUKNALIS at arserrc.gov
>Subject: PT lumber- DANGER

>     I recall an issue of Organic Gardening a few months ago that mentioned
that pressure treated lumber is treated with ARSENIC and CHROMIUM.  It 
is thus unsuitable for use in gardening applications because it leaches
these into the surrounding soil.  Probably not the best stuff to grow hops on.

An important concern to be noted.  Also note- pressure treated can mean 
different things.  treated is dif. from PT also.  My poles were soaked in
a diesel mix of nasty toxins.  That's why the stuff works to inhibit rot.
It's nasty!  One way to help keep it out of the soil/hops is to bury the
post in cement.  That way you won't have direct soil-wood contact.
My posts were also only treated on the lower 3', most of which is sunk into
cement.  I don't know how bad the threat from these toxins leaching into 
soil really is, but they are commonly used for various applications.

One way out is to use a wood like cedar, or redwood.  It really will take 
a long time to fully rot through a wood.  But if you have any intention of
a long lasting installation- then sink them into post mix.  If you are likely
to uproot the whole shibang in a year, then just pound some wood into the 
ground.  It's NOT going to rot away in a year or two.  5 maybe...
There's always the stringer off the side of the house option. Then you only
need a stake in the ground to hold it in place.   

    \-/-\-/   John (the Coyote) Wyllie  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  \-/-\-/

BTW: if you don't want to put you e-mail at the bottom, don't.
Don't do it just for me.  I've figured out how to cope.  So DOWHATYOUWANT.    
     
Hoppily brewin this afternoon.  1st lager of the season.
Soon- I'll describe my cold lager storage space I'm building in the basement!
Cost-  pretty negligable.  Mostly scavenged bits and pieces!  Oooh lala!

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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 12:19:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Yeast Starters- revisited

Subject: Yeast Starter and Agar Recipes


There are a lot of differnt philosophies on start medium.
Debates have raged- as debates are inclined to!

My personal preference is to make a starter somewhere stronger than the
1.020 mark.  More like 1.030, or 1.040.  I think that falls about 1cup DME
per gallon. Off the top of my head.  I'm actually usually pretty lazy about
measuring, and just put 4 to 8 tbsp into a liter flask.

I've found that weaker starters don't really give the yeast a good enough
boost to get them going well.  I do like to let them ferment past high
krausen and start to settle out before pitching.  You don't want them in
exponention, but in stationary phase for pitching so that they have good
glycogen reserves to draw from.   

As for nutrient- antoher topic of debate.  It will depend somewhat on the
quality of your malt used in your starter.  And how to determine that is
a mystery the suppliers will probably never solve for us!  There are also
different kinds of nutrients.  Ammonium sulfate, or phosphate is basically
a supplier of nitrogen.  The yeast extract type of nutrient will also add
vitamins and amino acids which the yeast are likely to find useful.

For a mead/cider/wine I would definitely add nutrient to the starter.
For a brew...there should be plenty of these elements in a good malt,
but to be certain that you have a good healthy/strong yeast culture to
start that is not deprived of any essentials, you may wish to add nutrient.
The amount you quoted seems reasonable.  But- if anything- hedge on the side
of not enough, as opposed to too much.  You don't want to over-ammonify your
bugs.  Too much nutrient can be a bad thing.  This has been accused of 
causing off flavors and long aging times to achieve drinkable meads.
That is a different topic of debate in itself.  My inclination is to add
a little nutrient to the starter, and not add it to the ferment itself.

As for agar:  15 grams per liter is the standard amount of agar for
solid media in a micro lab.  That's for plates or slants.  Half that amount
can be used to make overlays which are not as solid and thus allow more 
diffusion within the media.  Personally I like my agar hard (as my eggs!)
so that upon streaking I do not penetrate, unless intended.
Now this is for bacto agar.  For gelatin- or oriental store agar- I dunno.
I'd guess about the same is good.  For a real rough approximation-
15 grams is about a heaping tbsp full.   YMMV.

Be sure to melt the agar by heating the solution fully-  i.e., boil and mix.
Or you may get uneven distribution of the agar upon pouring.  (e.g. first
plate stays liquid, last plate is rock solid!  Overexageration..but...)

There are pre-made yeast media you can obtain.  One advantage of these is that
they pH is adjusted to a correctly low acidity  (~pH5) to encourage yeast
and discourage most bacteria/molds.   You can get malt agar from Difco.
They also have dextrose and maltose agars.  I found maltose to grow bigger
colonies.  But there is some advantage to using plain old malt-  the concept
of giving the yeast an environment similar to what they are going to be 
pitched into.  In every aspect-  temp, pH, osmotic balance...etc.
Basically- don't shock them!  Make their transition into your wort as smooth
and comfortable as possible.  
(compare with the old days of holding up a newborn and slapping their rump
in a cold-bright hospital room, vs a warmed, dimly lit room and a gently rub)

Hops:  I love hops (as you are probably all well aware), but I've never
bothered to put them in a starter.  You can. Their preservative qualities
are well documented.  I'd just rather save them for the brew...and I treat
my starters with enough care to ensure their purity before pitching.
(no dog fur, no cat fur, no rodent droppings, no dust- no fuss!)
Just pitch big and your yeast should dominate their environment!

 \-/-\  More words of...wisdom??? from the Coyote- SLK6P at cc.usu.edu \-/-\

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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 12:14:01 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard A Childers)
Subject: Mail-Bombin' Morons


"Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:54:56 +48000
 From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
 Subject: TinyDave at aol.com

"In HBD #1555 TinyDave at aol.com requests our public restroom graffitti.

"Let's teach this little mass mailing twerp a lesson.  Note that he
 specifically asks that you mail to an address other than his aol.com
 address.  I am unsure of the AOL traffic tarriffs but they could not
 be pleased if TinyDave received say, 10 copies of HBD #1555 from each
 of us.  Also complaints to the AOL management if one knows how to get
 a hold of them might help. 

"Let's inundate this vermin!  Mail Megabytes of junk to TinyDave at aol.com

"Domenick Venezia
 ZymoGenetics, Inc.
 Seattle, WA
 venezia at zgi.com"


Domenick,

First of all, I do not believe that it is appropriate, at all, to call
for mail-bombing other individuals under any circumstances ( except if
they have called for it to happen to others, perhaps ).

Second of all, given the prevalence of electronic mail forgery, it is
questionable whether

	(a)	the source listed in the header, is the source of
		the offending email, or

	(b)	whether the source and the target of the email are
		the same individual.

( In fact, the odds are against it. )

Third of all, it is really unwise for you to make such a statement
from your work environment.

If you want to be a rabble-rouser, get an account with Netcom. Don't
drag ZymoGenetics into your personal squabble.

Fourth of all, calling for people to publically attack another person,
however indirectly and abstractly, can be considered conspiracy. I'd
sit on my hands next time, if I were you.


- -- richard	( who's really tired of mail-bombing morons. )


    "I gathered I wasn't very well liked. Somehow, the feeling pleased me."
		    _Nine Princes In Amber_, by Roger Zelazny

   richard childers        san francisco, california        pascal at netcom.com


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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 15:13:22 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wife, pissed off variety

All that elbow grease and mysterious, dangerous chemicals just for a
clean stove? If you somehow manage to clean it off, it's just going to
come back. Consider it the stamp of the Brewing Gods, and enjoy it.

Easist way to fix the problem is to purchase a Cajun Cooker or similar
device to brew on. It works better than a kitchen stove too, and
boilovers on the patio can be cleaned up with a garden hose. What you
lose is that marvelous brewing aroma that fills your home, although that
too can annoy the wife, and you'll be fixing that problem as well.

Then AFTER you switch to patio brewing, give your stove the Mother of
All Cleanings, as described here.

=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." =====================
Roger Deschner    University of Illinois at Chicago   R.Deschner at uic.edu

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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 17:37:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Seth L. Betaharon" <sethb at wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Insulated cooler use

     I've been brewing extract beers for about two years now and have
decided that it is finally time to switch to all grain brewing.  I've read
every source I could get my hands on and think that I have a pretty good
idea of what is involved.  After considering all the information that 
I've read, I think my best bet is to buy an insulated 10gal water jug, 
place a false bottom in it, and then use this as a mash-tun and as a 
lauter-tun.  I would raise the temperature of the mash as necessary by 
adding boiling water and would use the false bottom to drain off the 
liquid and leave the spent grains behind.  

So, I have the following questions:  What kind of results should I expect 
from such a setup?  Will it work at all, or should I try a different 
setup?  The Sports Authority sells a 10 gal insulated Coleman water jug 
which has a tap that seems to just come out with the turn of a nut (I 
didn't want to play with the display model too much and break it.)  The 
price is only $30 - does anyone have experience using one of these?

Thanks in advance for any responses - I know these may seem like fairly
basic questions, but funds are kind of short right now and I'd like to
waste as little money as possible on experimentation. 

Seth L. Betaharon

sethb at wam.umd.edu


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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:42:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Ulick Stafford" <ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu>
Subject: Are AHA guidelines a joke?

Recently, I posted a bellyache about bottles with raised lettering not being
considered for ribbons, and received many responses from people about how
one shouldn't violate the rules, etc., etc.  However, while minor 
presentation faux pas will ensure a bottle does not win a ribbon, violating the 
most serious rule (IMHO) of a competition the object of which is to brew 
to style, does not seem to be a problem. 

In this years nationals it seems that an India Pale ale won best bitter
and a doppelbock best Munich Dunkel.  Given the two step nature of 
the nationals (and the inherent anti-water bias) strong beers seem to
have a major advantage (for instance an Imperial stout won best stout, as
usual, and a Weizenbock best Weizen).  However, it seems unfair
to brewers of weaker beer styles to give first place ribbons to beers 
approximately 4-6 B (.016-.024 SG) over the published upper limit in the style 
guidelines.  It also demeans the weaker session beer classes.  There is no
way a beer with a 1.070 og was the best example of a bitter, or a beer with 
a 1.080 B og a Dunkel.

I have complained in the past about the AHA guidelines being a little off
in their hopping and color numbers, but few can measure these anyway.
However, I do agree, more or less, with the gravity recommendations.
Come on, Judges, give brewers of everyday session beers at normal
strengths a chance.  While I have no doubt that these two winning beers
were the best beers judged in class, it is not right to give the award to 
them if they are obviously not to style.  I do assume that National
judges are as capable of telling the approximate alcohol and og of a beer 
as they are of telling whether the bottle has illegal raised lettering.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
   http://ulix.rad.nd.edu/Ulick.html  |    Ulick.Stafford at nd.edu   


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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 94 15:49:00 PDT
From: gegearha at nps.navy.mil (Glenn E. Gearhard)
Subject: Peak Flavor and Expiration of Homebrew

A posting last week asked about the aging of homebrew (ie: how long does it 
keep).  The private e-mail answer that was passed referred mostly to the 
IBUs of the batch and the use of hops as a preservative - 
BUT,
what about the alcohol content - does it also play a preservative factor???

The brewing notes I received from a local shop (in Chicago at the time) listed
"peak" flavor periods based on the amount of malt.  The higher the malt content,
the longer the peak flavor period (ie)

		A Pale Ale with 6 lbs of liquid/DME peaks in 8-12 weeks.

		A Dopple Bock w/ 10 lbs malt extract peaks 16-24 weeks.

What are your thoughts on this?  I realize that hops provide a preservative
factor, but also the alcohol content (and the amount of malt used to achieve
the alcohol content) should also play a role in preservation.  This concept
goes along with the India Pale Ale being highly hopped and a little higher
in alcohol to withstand the ocean voyage to India.

I store my homebrew in a closet/room until I transfer it to the fridge just
prior to consumption.  I live (now) in Monterey CA, so the temps stay fairly
mild 60-70 F year round.

My questions are these:
	Is there a hop level/malt level chart that list peak flavor periods?
	What happens after this peak flavor period?  Is there a point where
		homebrew goes bad?

Finally, I guess I'm looking for some advice on whether I can extend the life
of my homebrew with refrigeration.  

TIA,

Glenn E. Gearhard      
gegearha at nps.navy.mil


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Date:     Sun, 23 Oct 94 19:27:45 CDT
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  oak spoons, B-Brite

Fellow brewers,

     As I continue toward building my grain setup I realize that my old spoon
will not be large enough to reach the depths of my 15.5 gal converted keg
kettle.  A plastic paddle is rather expensive and so I have thought of
fashioning a sort of paddle from a piece of oak.  My question, What woods are
used to make those kitchen utensils?  Is oak an acceptable wood?  What should
be done with it, (if anything) before using it to stir wort?

     As I usually brew every even weekend and rack to a secondary on the odd
weekends I make-use-discard a fair amount of B-Brite.  Does anyone know  the
shelf life of reconstituted b-Brite?  Also as I transition to the newer
iodophor sanitizers, is there any reason why one could not make up 5 gallons of
B.E.S.T.(tm) and keep it in a 5 gal plastic pail?  Any idea how long it will be
"good".  The local homebrew shops (actually there are no local one but the ones
I visit out of town) have ne idea  how long these solutions should last.  No 
mention in any of the texts I own either.

Hoppy brewing to the *other* Steve

Steve                (sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                            The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 11:09:28 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: dry hopping

At the risk of "flogging a dry hop" here is my contribution to this thread.
I split a 10 gallon batch of IPA into 2. One was fermented with the Wyeast ESB 
yeast the other with 1056. After primary fermentation both were great, so I 
racked into secondary onto 1.8oz loose fuggles pellets (ESB batch) and 1.8oz 
loose Cascade pellets (1056 batch). I should point out we can only get some hop 
varieties as pellets over here due to quarantine restrictions. 
So both beers remained on the hops for two weeks, then the beer drawn off the 
top for bottling. Both are undrinkable now. They are intensely bitter (IBUs 
were about 40 for OG=1055), with a dirty, grassy flavour.
So what did I do wrong?
Too much hops? Interestingly, Dave Draper used the same amount in an IPA 
(cascade) and his beer turned out very well, with none of the dirty bitterness 
associated with mine. He used a hop bag, however.
I for one shall stick to finish hopping in future unless some enlightened soul 
can point out the error of my ways.
Hoppy brewing Steve,
Andy W. (awalsh at ozemail.com.au)








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Date: 23 Oct 94 21:48:37 EDT
From: Mike Schrempp <73764.306 at compuserve.com>
Subject: hop seeds

I just finished making a Brown Ale and used Fuggles Hops. When I opened the
hops (whole), they were full of seeds. I have two questions:

1. Are Fuggles supposed to have seeds?

2. How can I cultivate these seeds?

I seem to remember that hop growers got rid of male plants to prevent the female
plants from going to seed. But I also seem to remember that some types are not
cultivated this way. 


Mike Schrempp



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1560, 10/24/94