FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  RE: liberty/recirc/stones/etc (Jim Busch)
  Copyright answer (Gregg_Weir#123#Notes#c#_Gregg_Weir#064#DCI#125#)
  Re: Wort Cooler ("Michael D. Pierce")
  TSP (Douglas R. Jones)
  Wort recirculation and trub losses ("nancy e. renner")
  Dead Horses/FAQs/Pinkos (Jeff Frane)
  Heretical Apricots in beer ("Steven W. Smith")
  My Spin on Cooler mashing. ("Palmer.John")
  non phosphate TSP (Btalk)
  Sulfites and apricots ("Matt Sisk")
  Malting / New Subs/ Limbo Low / Postage Notes (COYOTE)
  Copyright rebuttal; My Point. ("Palmer.John")
  Decoction mashing ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Liberty Ale (Jeff Stampes)
  Pacific NW Beers? ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  I ordered my cooker (smtplink!guym)
  Re: HIGH TEMPERATURE PUMP (Dion Hollenbeck)
  single vs secondary (Greg Niznik)
  Beer in Zurich: ("LightWorks Machine Dsgn.")
  Plastic Taste (Don Rudolph)
  Thanks for the responses (Timothy Staiano)
  cider hearsay (Dan Sherman)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:51:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: liberty/recirc/stones/etc

Stephen writes:
Subject: Liberty Ale Success Story
 
<Good news from the home front, my Liberty Ale came out great!  Three weeks
 
<(5 gallons)
<8 lbs Munton and Fisons light malt extract
<1/2 lb 40L Crystal Malt
<1/2 lb Munich Malt
<1/2 lb Cara Pils Malt
<1.5 oz Fuggles Hops (bittering)
<3.5 oz Cascade Hops (flavor, aroma, dry-hop etc)
<Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast culture
<
<Mash the Crystal, Munich and Cara Pils malts in a couple of quarts of 150
<degree (all degrees in Farenheit, sorry non-US) water for about 30 minutes.
<Raise the temperature to 158 degrees, and hold it for 15 minutes.  Raise
<the temperature to 168 degrees briefly, then sparge with another quart or two
<of 170 degree water.  Add a gallon of water to mash, then boil it with the
<malt extract for 60 minutes.
<
 
Welcome to the mashing world!  Since you went to the work of doing a
mash, I would suggest that you drop a few pounds of extract from the
recipe and add about 3 Lbs of pale ale or US 2 row malted barley to the
mash.  All of the steps are the same, you just need a device big enough
to lauter/sparge the extra pounds of malt.  BTW, you say to add a gallon
of water to the mash, I think you meant to add a gallon of water to the
wort runnings in the kettle.  You dont want to be boiling the mash and
the extract, but Im sure this is not what you did!
 
While Im at it, Id also suggest a bit more kettle hops than the Fuggles,
Liberty has a distinct bitterness and closer to 2-2.5 oz of kettle hops
would be nice for a start.  BTW, what was the OG?  This is important to
keep track of your progress in mashing.
 
Rick writes:
<   I have a Zapap setup that I'm currently using.  Dave Miller
<says to gently recirculate the cloudy first-runnings to clear them up.
<How long does this *really* take?  I usually lose patience after about
<10 or so minutes (several quarts), and just sparge without any further
<recirculation.
 
10 -20 minutes is quite normal.  And if you think this is a long time,
ask a brewmaster how long it takes to clarify a mash for a 25 BBL brew,
its about a hour or more.

Charles writes:
<Subject: Beerstone removal?
<1. Is the buildup harmful in any way (like harboring harmful beasties)?
<2. Is there an easy way to remove the buildup (preferably without using
<extremely caustic substances)?
 
Its not good!  Caustics do not remove true beer stone, if this is really
what you have.  Caustics like red devil lye are a good starting point,
but use heavy rubber gloves and dont get any on your skin.  If a good
caustic cleaning (TSP is another good choice) still leaves a buildup, then
you need to work on the beer stone.  For your SS vessal, you might be
able to scrub it off, but your chiller likely needs a acid wash.  G. Fix
wrote how to do this in a recent digest.
 
Bob writes:
<Subject: RE: HOW LOW?
 
<The question was how low can you go in fermentables and still have an
<okay beer From my experience with very low gravity beers, pretty low.
<The key may be the _non_ fermentables you use.
 
Exactly.  I feel the British Milds and bitters are about as low as
I like go , OG wise.  These are about 1.030 (7.5P).  For a mild, there
is a lot of unfermented caramel and dark malts.  For bitter, many
brewers make a 1.055 dextrinous wort and dilute this to 1.032-1.038.
I believe Darryl Richman uses this method on some of his English ales,
Darryl?
 
COYOTE writes:<SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
<Subject: Keg Walls, Decoction, Grain Storage
 
<I have the CO2 on ones side with two holes cuz I split the line and
<added separate shutoffs.  Then two lines on the other side for beer.
<I also put one of those wall-style openers there two.  Plus the
 
<I chose not to got through the door cuz I didn't want the taps and tubes
<swinging all over the place.  I now have the taps sitting above the
<laundry/brew! sink I installed in the garage/brewery. Makes for a handy
<drip tray, plus simpler line flushing.

You completely lost me!  I have a single CO2 inline through the right
side wall of the beer fridge.  Inside, this goes to a 3 way shutoff CO2
distributer, then to the kegs.  The kegs beer lines come out two shanks
from the front of the door.  A drip pan is under, with a drain going back
inside the fridge to a collection vat in the door.  This is a very important
feature, the waste beer stays inside of the fridge for a few days and
is not as foul as an outside drain.  The hoses are long enough to open the
door and change kegs easily.   To clean, remove the lines and flush, and
use a taphandle brush to scrub the shank.  Remove the tap assembly and
clean this too.  You can also buy a inline flush system that the bars use
but why bother?
 
<even got a kit for what you're talking about.  I think Fox has most of
<them too.  You can go as fancy (expensive!) or cheap as you want.
 
 Rapids is cheaper than Foxx.
 
Good brewing,
Jim Busch

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Date: 04 Nov 94 06:59:35 GMT
From: Gregg_Weir#123#Notes#c#_Gregg_Weir#064#DCI#125# at mail.discovery.com
Subject: Copyright answer

Answering my own post (which I thought may appear in #1570 but didn't make it) 
re: copyright and doing research.  My wife is a 2nd year law student at 
Georgetown U. and is currently in a copyright class.  I asked her what the law 
is regarding this matter.  The answer is contained in the Copyright Act of 1976 
(which I am not going to quote due to space) Sections 101, 105, 109 among 
others.  It is a violation of the author's copyright to reproduce their work 
without permission. Period.  The exception is for PERSONAL, PRIVATE USE.  Now, 
she thought that distribution to fellow club members within one's home would 
constitute private use.  She also said if you tried to prosecute for a 
violation, a judge may throw the case out on the grounds it is frivolous.  Court
s have better things to do with their time.  

But for Mr. Glenn and Cyber Age Publishing who was interested in publishing 
HBD, he would have to get all author's permission.  He really should contact a 
lawyer to ascertain the legality of his enterprise.  The Internet and its 
postings do not constitute being in the Public Domain.  (I was wrong too!).  
This topic had already come up in her class so it was very fresh in her mind.  
On with more discussion on Brewing! 

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:17:31 -0500
From: "Michael D. Pierce" <mdp at bbt.com>
Subject: Re: Wort Cooler

Robert et all,
I built an immersion type chiller from 15' of 1/2" copper, 6' of hose, a
"connect to you drill" type self priming pump ($4 HW store), and connectors.
I dont want to discount the ease of "chilling directly to the carboy" with a
CF chiller,"BUT" I have yet to see a post where any one can chill 2-3 gallons
of wort to 80-85 deg. and add it to 2-3 gal. cold water (final 70-75 deg.) and
pitch in 5-minutes.
I fill one Kitchen sink with a bag of ice and run some tap water into it.
Pump the water out threw the chiller into the other sink. I use a var-speed
drill and vary the speed to keep the output temp. high. This method saves ice
and water. A buddy of mine and I have been making 2 batches at a time so we
use a full bag of ice and maybe 4 gallons of water total.
When I'm done I just rinse the chiller and empty the water out an I'm done.
I hope this helps.

Mike Pierce
mdp at bbt.com

Standard disclamer here

" Broadband Technologies  - People Revolutionizing Communications"

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 11:13:31 CST
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: TSP

In HBD #1570 Pat Hewitt   (hewitt at arceng.com) wrote
>2).  Label soaking:  On a friends advice I tried tri-sodium phosphate
>(TSP) to soak bottles in an attempt to remove labels.  Only the cleanser
>I purchased was TSP-F phosphate-free.  After a two day soak I removed
>the labels, rinsed, and dried.  Left behind was a layer of white film
>inside and outside the bottle.  Rinsing and rubbing would remove the
>layer, but trace amounts left on the inside worried me.  Even a cycle
>in the dishwasher with Cascade wouldn't remove it.  All 48 bottles
>are now at the bottom of a recycling bin.  Future users beware; I think
>I'll stick to pure water.

I have been using TSP for each of the 8 batches I have done to clean
bottles. I have had nothing but excellent success of course YMMV! I buy my
TSP from _The Home Brewery_ in Missouri (800)321-BREW. I have never had a
residue problem. It could be the type of TSP perhaps?

Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of        |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'  |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin        |    (214)301-1307
                           |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:27:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Wort recirculation and trub losses

(From *Jeff* Renner, please pardon the bad line length, I haven't yet 
figured out how to import from Word into this new mailer (Pine))

Rick Gontarek and John Faulks both have Zapap questions.

Rick asks:

>Dave Miller says to gently recirculate the cloudy first-runnings to 
>clear themup.  How long does this *really* take?  I usually lose patience 
>after about 10 or so minutes (several quarts), and >just sparge without 
>any further recirculation.

When you are beginning your sparge, the cloudiness comes from two sources 
 - the
suspended particulates in the "dead space" under the false bottom, and the
particulates that are not well trapped in the matrix of the grain bed.
Recirculating washes out the second and traps them in the bed when you return
the wort, and it does help flush out the dead space.  But only a little time
will allow the dead space to completely settle out.  I recirculate 
(rather fast,
since I'm not worried at this point about extract, but not so fast as to 
compact
the bed) about 6 - 8 quarts.  This will nearly clear the runoff.  Then I 
let it
sit a few minutes and then recirculate a little more and start 
collecting.  I
doubt that the whole thing takes 15 minutes.  You can also heat the 
recirculate
if you are worried about heat loss, which takes us to:

Rick:

>After cooling the boiled wort, I usually just stay away from the >goop 
at the
bottom.

and John Faulks says:

>But last batch, I checked how much cold break slurry I threw out, 
>nearly 3
quarts.

Don't throw out your precious wort! Filter it, reboil and cool it!  Take 
a piece
of old sheet (or tee shirt, etc.) and tie it over the mouth of a large 
bowl or
other container (I use a one gallon plastic measure).  Put your slurry in 
there
(you can try to decant in as much clear wort as possible).  Wait, maybe 
scrape
the cloth filter with a spoon.  You can even remove the cloth, gather up the
edges (don't spill it, I have), and squeeze it.  Since it's cool, you 
don't have
to worry about HSA (hot side aeration).  Reboil the clear wort, recool, 
and now
you have 3 more qts. of potential beer.

>or I need to cover my zap-pap setup to stop the heat loss from >the top.

Do it!  Just glue a circle of styrofoam sheet on the lid.  It'll make a big
difference.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:50:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Dead Horses/FAQs/Pinkos

Richard Webb writes:
> 
> Subject: Uses for the HBD
> 
> Look! A dead horse! Let's flog it some more!
> 
> The scribe for our club newsletter was taken to task for incorporating some
> information found in the HBD into the club newsletter. This letter is a
> not for profit source of information to brewers, many who do not have access
> to the HBD. OK all of you budding author wanna-bees. How do you feel about
> this subject? Does my club need to pay royalties for use of the information
> presented in this public discussion?
> 
> Do we
> allow this sort of copying and dissemination? I hope so.
> 

I don't *think* anyone has even faint objections to this sort of fair
use.  None.  Really.  I will say that, in the past, when a club
newsletter editor wanted to use something I've written, I've gotten a
very polite request to reprint (not necessarily always, of course -- how
would I know?), and I've always cheerfully given permission.  Why not?
very flattering request.

As a former newsletter editor, I agree that the HBD has great potential
for someone willing to do a lot of work digging.  Me, I'd mine it for
contributions from people like  George Fix on HSA, Glenn Tinseth on
hops, etc....... and I'd ask for permission to reprint, since that's the
easy and polite thing to do.

Sometimes, it's easier to quote lots of little bits from an ongoing
discussion and then we've really entered into a safe fair-use area.

Whack that horse!

======

I don't know how to reach Rob Gardner, but perhaps there's a way to be
more concise in the opening segment of each digest, pointing out
specifically which FAQs are available (malt, yeast, ...) and encouraging
new subscribers/ new brewers to get them and read them.

No?

=======

Ulick Stafford still doesn't get it:
> 
> After considering the objections to the publication of hbd, it seems that the
> core objection comes to breaking the commandment, thou shalt not make a
> profit.  

Ulick, the objection is to making a profit on the creative efforts of
others.  D'you think the commies are responsible for patent laws?

- --Jeff



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Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 10:20:05 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Heretical Apricots in beer

  Since I infected a recent brew using fresh fruit, I've been planning another 
Belgianesque adventure using "apricot nectar". 
  The cheapo store brand (Bonnie Hubbard, FWIW) contains:
filtered water, apricot pulp, apricot juice, corn sugar, citric acid, 
ascorbic acid.

  It _looks_ like a good, microbe-free vehicle for fruit nirvana, and I'm gonna 
give it a shot, adding a can or 2 to the secondary.  I was wondering if 
anyone's tried it and has some of that famous, sage HBD advice to gimme?
  Thanks In Advance for anything, I swear I'll honor your copyright privs.

Now, here's my complete, unabridged list of American-Southwest grocery and 
convenience stores who carry apricot nectar... Shucks, where'd I file that?  
Mail me if you want it ;-)
  _,_/|   
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith - Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu

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Date: 4 Nov 1994 09:19:04 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: My Spin on Cooler mashing.

Hi Group,
Rick asked yesterday about whether false bottoms were needed in conjunction
with copper or pvc manifolds. To which I will answer with a hearty NO. I will
go further and say that you don't need those Whirly-gig sparger sprayers
either!

Mashing in a cooler is the Best method for the homebrewer IMNSHO. (Let me
qualify that and say that I am currently using three indepen'tly heated
converted kegs w/ manifolds for my brewing. But thats because I like to
experiment. I still say that if you want the best performance with the least
investment and fuss then you should use a cooler).

Now then, I recommend soft copper tubing for the manifold. Why? Because you can
bend it to the shape you want and its continuous. You can run it out-up-over
the side like a siphon if you dont want to run it out the spigot hole. Or you
can use rigid tubing with the solderable connectors (which you don't need to
solder, just slip together). Whichever, use a thin bladed hacksaw or Dremel to
cut slots in the tubing. I use the small, thin, six inch hacksaws, the wort
clears quicker with the narrower slot. Cut the slots diagonal to the length of
the tubing about one  tube diameter apart. Cut them only halfway into the tube
and face them all down so they will lay against the bottom of the cooler. Try
to cover a majority of the cooler-bottom surface area, but realize that this is
not critical in view of the obvious success of the EASYMASHER SYSTEM by JSP,
which uses a single screened tube.

I recommend pre-heating the cooler with hot water (dump it) before adding the
grist and mash water. This keeps your heat loss to the cooler at a minimum. I
have never lost more than 2 degrees during an hour long mash this way.
 
To Sparge, drain the first couple quarts of the sweet wort and recirculate it
to the top. Drain again until the fluid level just gets to top of the grain
bed, then stop. Place a plastic coffee can lid on the grainbed and pour your
sparge water onto this. From here on out, maintain an inch of water over the
grainbed bed at all times. Adjust your out-flow to maintain a steady slow flow
while maintaining the level of sparge water at one inch. Stop when you when see
a noticeable color change in the wort, indicating that you are getting mostly
sparge water out the outflow. Or use a hydrometer and stop when the gravity of
the wort drops to 1.008.

That's it, those are my opinions on mashing with a cooler. For more details on
construction, there are several files available at the various archive sites.
If you have specific questions on my methods, feel free to email me.

Hope this helps, simpler IS better,
John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P                        "Its hard to work in a group
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com                           when you are omnipotent." -Q

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:23:57 -0500
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: non phosphate TSP

Pat writes about this stuff leaving a film on his bottles.

TSP is banned in New York state, so I tried the Non phosphate replacement
called MEX. Man, talk about FILM on bottles.
I hated to toss em all. I ended up doing two sessions with a bottle brush to
get it all off. the trouble is that you can't see the white film until the
bottles dry. What a pain.
Just another reason to keg;)
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz,Binghamton, NY<btalk at aol.com>

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:11:33 -0600
From: "Matt Sisk" <mps at shell.com>
Subject: Sulfites and apricots

Andy Walsh wrote (in response to Pierre Jelenc):
> SM is used in winemaking to stop fermentation. So presumably, large
> quantities will kill the yeast off and stop fermentation which is
> not desirable.

It was my understanding that SM is an inhibitor -- ie, adding it early will
keep a ferment from starting, but once the yeast gets rolling it takes a hell
of a lot more SM to stop it.  And even then, it's not killing the yeast, but
just halting it's growth.

Any expert opinions out there?

Matt Sisk					mps at shell.com


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Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 10:42:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Malting / New Subs/ Limbo Low / Postage Notes

Brian sed,
>     To be simplistic,... grain is actually a seed... will germinate
 ...internal changes and produces the starch (complex sugars)...
Malting grain is simply the process of providing the right conditions 
(temp. and moisture) to allow it to germinate and then halting the process 
by drying the grain....can also be kilned at higher temperatures in order 
to produce the various speciality malts (crystal, chocolate, black etc.). 

*   It's good not to oversimplify...but you're basically on target.

One problem:  The starch is actually produced during the development of
the grain granule.  The endosperm of the seed contains stored starch 
complexes.  What happens during germination is that enzymes (made of
proteins)  are produced (synthesized, transported) that are capable of 
breaking down the starch into the usable sugar forms for fast energy.  
Energy is needed by the seed to develop the root and shoot by rapid cell 
proliferation and elongation.  

What malting does is to begin the germination, then halt it, and as you say
the grain can be kilned in a number of different ways to create dif. colors...
etc.  It is the enzymes, and the starches (mostly) in the malt that brewers
are after, at least for a base malt.  Some specialty malts are kilned at
high enough temperatures that enzymes are eliminated (black, roast, choco). 
Some are kilned at only slightly higher temps so the color is darker but the
enzymes are intact (vienna, munich).  But I'm not gonna list them all.
Just realize that there is an infinite array of combinations of temperature
and time in the kilning process that can lead to all dif. variations
of malt qualities.  Not to omit the fact that the duration of the germination
period has a significant impact.  The amount of modification is the key
difference between american and european pale malts. 
(-  Urp-  Urp-  Generalization in Progress--   Red Light Flashes in Your Eyes)

The best reference I've seen is "The Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing"
by J.S. Bough. I found it at the university library (do you believe it! In Ut!)
If you didn't understand any of the spewage that I just threw at you -you
will probably find portions of this book even less digestible, but it's
actually written pretty goodly, nice diagrams, figures...etc.

Millers book handles malts pretty well.  The allgrain zymurgy does have 
some choice tidbits.  As for home malting- there's that article, and
then I once received about a 5 page summary of Home Malting.  Has a neat
"how to" flow chart of times/temps to make differnt types of malts.
How's this for a solitication: I'll send anyone a copy for a homebrew!   :)
Think I'll make any profit?  Depends on how good your beer is I s'pose!

Wasn't there a mashing/ or malting faq done?  The all-grain has some info.
Oh- the bottom line in the articles was that there was never a finer
pleasure than malting your own - but articles are  like that. A pitch.

***
I'd like to thank Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> for his timely words 
on   ....Subject: re:Sparge water pH adjustments

I especially liked the part about, "#0H^(%-U8FIE8W0Z($1A=F4 at 3&EN92=S"
It knocked my nickers off!

I couldn't have made it thru the day without knowing that!   :)

***
Pat Hewitt   (hewitt at arceng.com)

>    I recently subscribed to the cider digest, and found that when
added to the mailing list, you receive an informative package of where
to go to read about the basics, a summary of the basic process, a 
sample recipe, etc.  All of which I think would be appropriate
for people joining the HBD.  I realize not all new subscribers are
beginning brewers, but something like this may prevent future
Malt Pres. flame wars.  Any comments?

It's a good idea- I liked that about the cider digest too, then I never
heard anything more!  Ah well.  I made cider anyway.   Glub glub.

Now- I'm sure we'd want to include the definition of what is brewing
related topics in the intro, so that people know all the proper etiquette
on our almightly digest!  Now- who shall we chose to decide upon whats
what.   hmmmm (scratch head, sigh ponderously...)......pause-tick-tick-tick...

But really folks....(after a Looooooong anxious wait)  
How about the faq.  Yeah- send em the faq.  Just the faqs maam, none of that
other crap.  We can always update the faq to include the latest and kewlest
acronyms and whatnot.  WaddayaSay?  Lets really be sure to tell em where to go!

***
Bob Paolino   Disoriented in Badgerspace    on LOOOW gravity beers.
    (* anyone from the Mad-City can't be all bad!)

> ...O.G. was 1.024, far less than AHA guidelines for American lager, and too
much colour, hop, and flavour for a Diet/Light. T.G. was, if I remember
correctly, 1.008)

* Ok Limbo time everybuddy.  AaaaaaEeeeeeeAaaaaaaah,   ie ie ie ie ie ieeeeee
        (best Charo accent and chest shimmy I could muster.....)

I had an OG of 1.015 from the second runnings of a 1.070 pseudo Fullers clone.
I didn't check the gravity until after it was up to a boil (yes- cooled the 
sample first) and then decided- ah what the hell.  So I hopped that f*&#er 
right up with a bunch of something.  I'm sure I finish hopped with homegrown.

It finished down about he same-  below 1.010, maybe even down to 1.050.
But after it was kegged and primed- it had a nice creamy head, full hop nose-
even lots of malty "body".  Yeah it was thinner and lighter that most of my
brews, but it certainly wasn't as thin and light and say- milwaukee dry light.
I actually think some of the mouth feel came from the hops.  If that's possible


Anywho....dripped it's last drop last night.  That last blow of foam sure did
sit solid for a while.  Ever float a quarter on a head of beer?  How bout  a
groat?  (oh sorry- wrong digest....)

***
I'd like to thank 
Cam Lay  clay at clust1.clemson.edu
who  "apologies for use of bandwdth for peripheral subjects. "

for an excellent and informative post on pressure treated wood and such.
Thanks for the clarification.  That's a tidbit that sounds convincing! 
Good thing I just opted for the real PT lumber, not the diesel for the 
lumber I just bought for a raised bed.  Maybe I'll have a piece or two
left for hops, or strawberries to play around!


***
So now that I've tried to set the fine example of worthwhile and worthless
posts- all being offered in a lightheartened, sweaty palmed kinda goofy way
I tend to- lets all get a clue and get back to brewing.  Enough personal
opinions on the what/how/supposed/allowed/copywritten/  type compost.
Just DROP IT.  No more, that's it.  I really mean it this time.  
    Not another word out of you-  HEY YOU!  IN THE CORNER,  STOP MUMBLING!!!!

Look over here!  Now pay attention.  (the soothing, but firm voice you
remember from you 4th grade class takes over and fills your ears)
  
Read the header with me one time....slowly....
   "   T h e   H o m e   B r e w   D i g e s t.  "

Ok, now say it again a little quicker. 
   "   HomeBrewDigest. " 

That's better.  Now read the next line with me.  You can do it....
   "   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES   "

Very good.  That was wonderful . Do you know what that means?   Goooooood.

With a warm but FIRM "pat" across the head you are allowed to sit down again
facing the front of the class this time.  But be warned- no further outbreaks
will be tolerated.  I want you to participate in a productive manner in this
class or you'll be sitting in the principals office.  Do you hear me!
    
    AND NO MORE MUMBLING!   You don't want to go through this again, RIGHT!

chow....the coyote has babbled.........  





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Date: 4 Nov 1994 10:08:45 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Copyright rebuttal; My Point.

_In response to Phil Proefrock, HBD 1570_
The way I see it:
There is a public resource, a Reservoir (internet). Public funds maintain that
reservoir and some people have set up boating launches with snack bars and
amenities to provide additional access (AOL). But the majority of users use the
public beach and restroom. (.edu, freenet) Now there are "fishing" clubs that
use the reservoir. They catch fish, but also stock fish. Some of the members
use the public facilities, some use the private. There is an understanding that
the resource and its contents belong to the public. There is a balance between
what is stocked and what is taken by the Public. The club doesn't mind public
fishing, they are supporting the sport because they like it.
Now along comes the Walnut Creek corporation. They pull up to the reservoir,
hook up a pump and fill a tanker truck with water and fish. They then take this
to another location and sell it, claiming that all they are doing is bringing
the resource to the people. Pretty soon there are less fish in the reservoir,
and other people start charging for the resource too, and the Club starts going
elsewhere where their contributions will be uncorrupted.

I will continue to support this forum and archives, I like donating my time and
words in return for what I have learned. But I will be damned if I will
stand-by while someone else sells my donation. Internet access providers are
not doing this, they are providing alternative access to the reservoir along
with other services. When Walnut Creek publishing comes along, takes what is
otherwise free and markets it for profit, then that is unethical. 

I debated about posting this to the HBD, I would like to see only brewing info
here, but I feel very strongly about this and decided that this topic will
evolve into a decision that will greatly influence the future of the HBD and
the internet archives. I will not post any more follow ups to the discussion to
the HBD, reserving those to direct email. Thank you for your time.



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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 13:25:39 EST
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: Decoction mashing

Yes you boil grains this isn't a problem if the mash is done in the correct 
ph range. 

Darryl Richmans recent book on Bock has a superb piece on decotion mashing, 
its easier to follow than the one published by Noonan in Brewing Lager 
Beers.

Why do a decoction:
  Improved extraction due to additional starch gelatinization.
  Flavor and aroma enhancement due to increased melanodin formation.
  Add additional heat to an unheated mash tun.

Decoctions will cause wort darkening, the longer the boil the darker.

I have used decoctions in a couple of ale batches recently using the 
mashing schedule which has been recently suggested for highly modified 
grains.  It proved an easy way of getting my main mash to the next temp 
rest.

Initial rest at 95-105F   Fix likes higher Narziss lower
infuse with boiling water to 140F
final rest at 158F

After 10 minutes at 140 I pulled 40-50% of the grain, raised it to 158F
held for 15 minutes boiled and added to the main mash my main mash setteled 
in at or near 158F.

After starch convertion, I drained a gallon of liquid and added a
gallon of water boiled and added to the main mash to mash out.

 


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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 08:32:28 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Liberty Ale

Stephen Tinsley writes

The recipe that I used is as follows:

(5 gallons)
8 lbs Munton and Fisons light malt extract
1/2 lb 40L Crystal Malt
1/2 lb Munich Malt
1/2 lb Cara Pils Malt
1.5 oz Fuggles Hops (bittering)
3.5 oz Cascade Hops (flavor, aroma, dry-hop etc)
Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast culture

Mash the Crystal, Munich and Cara Pils malts in a couple of quarts of 150
degree (all degrees in Farenheit, sorry non-US) water for about 30 minutes.
 .........[etc]


Having never done any partial mashes (jumped straight from all extract to
all grain), I wonder if mashing 1.5lbs of grain is worth all the work?  It
would seem to me that with 8 lbs of extract providing fermentables, you
could have just steeped those grains for 30 minutes as the water came to
a boil to extract some of their characteristics without needing to 
hassle with mashing.  Personally, if I'm going through all that work,
I'm going to use more than 1.5 lbs!

Thoughts?

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Stampes			|  "And on the Eighth Day God
jeff at neocad.com			|    created Homebrew . . . and
Boulder, Co  			|    hasn't been heard from since"
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"God wrote this book, and It sez here in this book God made us in
 his image, so if we're dumb, then God is Dumb, and a little ugly
 on the side!" - Frank Zappa
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 14:07:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Pacific NW Beers?

Hey fellow brewers,

I have a friend who is traveling to the Seattle area next week.  He has 
agreed to bring me back some of the better beers of the greater Pacific 
Northwest.  My explicit interest in these beers (besides savoring and imbibing 
them) is building upon my small but growing yeast collection.  So, if anyone 
could suggest *bottle-conditioned* microbrews from that area, I would be 
greatly appreciative.  Replies by private e-mail, of course, in hopes of 
avoiding being engulfed in flames---it may already be too late for that.  

Advice for the poor netbrewer without funding for the asbestos suit:
Stop, drop and roll !!

Sorry if I have offended any purist sensibilities by posting a regional 
request---at least it was beer-related. ;)  Thanks for any info.  Brew on!

Bones
laatsch at kbs.msu.edu  

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Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 11:55:16 MDT
From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.uu.net
Subject: I ordered my cooker


  I just ordered my propane cooker, the model 90 H/S PK King Kooker, from 
  Metal Fusion.  Thanks again for all the response I got from the readership 
  regarding the various models on the market.  The diameter of the cooking 
  ring/spokes on this model is large enough for a half-barrel keg to sit on 
  safely.  It is also heavy duty enough to hold the weight.  I'll post the 
  results after I use it the first time.  Now, time to get a propane tank...
  
  Oh yeah, Metal Fusion's number is (504) 469-6431 if anyone wants to call 
  and get a catalog.
  
  --
  Guy McConnell \/ Exabyte Corp. /\ Huntersville, NC \/ guym at exabyte.com
  "All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit, Get Over IT!!!"

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 12:09:05 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: HIGH TEMPERATURE PUMP

>>>>> "john" == john wheaton <john_wheaton at hpboi1.desk.hp.com> writes:

>>  Sales policies of W.W.Grainger
>>
>> 5)      They are very happy to sell to individuals.

john> I tried purchasing a pump last year from them in their Boise
john> branch and they said they only sell to businesses.

Since I was the one to say they are happy to sell to individuals, I
had better correct myself.  I called my local office and asked
directly if they would and the answer was "Of course, if anyone comes
in with cash in hand, we will not refuse to sell to them."  Upon
further investigation with the salesperson I found out that the
official company policy is that they sell only to businesses.

So, I guess we here in San Diego are lucky our office does not want to
refuse business to anyone.  In your city, you will have to query your
local office.  

Sorry for any confusion I caused, but I made the assumption that since
I had walked in as an individual and purchased without hassle, it was
the company policy.

dion

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Date:         Fri, 4 Nov 94  15:13:16 EST
From: Greg Niznik <GENIZN01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      single vs secondary

Graduate Student
Phone: 852-5756

Help

I'm still new at this brewing thing, trying to read everything
I can. I got a fundemental question.

Some brew in one bucket, some use a secondary.
Why?
A secondary fermentor must add something that you just don't
get in a primary, assuming that you will keep things clean
enough to prevent contamination.
I assume I have the concept right where in single container brewing
one waits for fermentation to stop and then immediately primes and
racks to bottles.
I haven't found a good answer to this one.
Thanks in advance

Greg


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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:30:09 +0001 (EST)
From: "LightWorks Machine Dsgn." <litewrks at world.std.com>
Subject: Beer in Zurich:

Need the poop on the beer scene in Zurich, Switzerland for a trip
on 11.11.94:  Private Email, Thanks for your help.

Happy Motoring,
__________________________________________________________
              |        Richard Dee        |
   Factory    | LightWorks Machine Design |  Production
 Automation   |  litewrks at world.std.com   |    Tooling
______________| 73677.2040 at compuserve.com |_______________


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Date: 04 Nov 94 15:27:33 EST
From: Don Rudolph <76076.612 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Plastic Taste



John Boatman writes:

>My latest batch has a slight plastic kind of aftertaste.

>Is this phenol?

It is probably a chlorophenol.  These compounds have a distinct plastic,
"band-aid" like odor.

>What can cause phenol?

Chorophenol will occur when chlorine is present during fermentation.
Common causes of chlorine are either from your water supply, or from
chlorine bleach used for sanitizing.  Pre-boiling brewing water will
eliminate chlorine from your water supply, and if you sanitize with
chlorine, you may want to rinse more thoroughly.

>Will it get better/worse with time?

I had a batch with chlorophenols, it did not seem to diminish over time.
YMMV.

>Is it harmful?

Yes.

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
76076.612 at CompuServe.COM



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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:38:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Timothy Staiano <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>
Subject: Thanks for the responses

Greetings and salutations!

Just wanted to thank everyone who replyed to my request on getting more 
body at bottling time and priming with molasses (Tom Zeran 
<tzeran at qalcomm.com>, Roger Grow <grow at sumatra.mcae.stortek.com> and 
Aaron <COX003 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>).

Here's the general concensus:

	*Add anywhere from 4 to 8oz malto-dextrine with priming sugar (MD 
	isn't fermentable so will add body)

	*Make up normal priming solution with 1c water and corn sugar, 
	find OG.  Make up solution of water and molasses to same OG. 

	*Aaron used 3c MD/6gal beer

I think I'll find a good medium (weigh out 3c MD, see if it compares and 
then extrapolate) and then prime with the molasses (to get 'da flava).  
I'll post again in a few weeks with the results (opening 1st bottle on 
thukey day).

Have a hoppy!
Tim <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>

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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:10:47 -0800 (PST)
From: dsherman at sdcc3.UCSD.EDU (Dan Sherman)
Subject: cider hearsay

In HBD #1570, Mark Worwetz wrote:
	One key fact I received and verified about cider making
	is to NOT use Champagne yeast!  This stuff ferments
	everything, and leaves a very dry (.996 FG), sharp finish.


I also just started my first cider.  When I bought the cider, I
talked to a guy at the orchard who had been making hard cider for
around 15 years.  He recommended using champagne yeast and adding
lactose to taste at bottling time (he said he used around 2oz per 5
gallons).  Since S. cerevisiae does not ferment lactose, it does not
add to carbonation, just taste.  He also said that adding pectic
enzyme before pitching the yeast (after might be OK, too) helped to
speed up the secondary fermentation.

These tips are from a single source, so please feel free to comment
on this information.

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1572, 11/07/94