FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  HBD has already been published on CD ROM!!! (00bkpickeril)
  Low-tech Yeast Handling (Lowell Hart)
  Tin Can taste (MYETTE)
  Bell's Pale Ale - Recipe Request (Eric Hale)
  Green Beer around the corner ("THE FOURWHEELIN' 'TALIAN WANNABE JOKEMEISTER.")
  HSA and the Sierra archives (VODACEKT)
  acronyms (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Acid for pH adjustment (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Numbers (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  to culture or not? (ROB SKINNER)
  Barleywine shelflife ("David Sapsis")
  Mash too hot (Jon Petty)
  Counter-Pressure Bottling (Harry Covert)
  Corny Kegs (mike.keller)
  Re: Master Judge is Stumped! (Marc de Jonge)
  Beer Tasting, Master Judge Cox (Alan_Marshall)
  Re: Uh, oh, Chuck (Jeff Frane)
  Embarrasment ("nancy e. renner")
  S.S. Cookers (ELQ1)
  _Imperial_? Stout...don't mean to nitpick, but.... (uswlsrap)
  Re: Master Judge is Stumped! (STROUD)
  Virgin mash/virgin brew/weird "snowglobe" yeast (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  IRC Beer Tastings (Spencer.W.Thomas)



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Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 16:42:32 -0500 (EST)
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: HBD has already been published on CD ROM!!!

I *hate* to post this, because I am as sick of the copyright discussion
and flames as anyone, but I think there are a lot of us who would like
to know that a Windoze CD ROM of the HBD has *ALREADY BEEN PUBLISHED!*
Nevermind some guy wanting to print it out.  The following is excerpted
from a thread currently on usenet's Rec.Crafts.Brewing.  (RCB).

Apparently, besides not even mentioning this on the HBD, the makers of this
CD didn't do a very good job.  BTW, the *Cat's Meow* is also reportedly on
the CD ROM.  Please don't flame me on this one.  I had _nothing_ to do with
the CD, just stumbled accross this on usenet. Thanks.  Hope it's not in the
HBD a dozen times today.  I hope Al doesn't give up entirely on us after
all this.  I think they are charging $29 for the cd, which also includes
a lot of homebrew catalogs, scanned into text and graphics file.  I have
not seen the CD, nor am I planning on buying it.

> Hi.  I'm Fred Lloyd, co-author and principal designer of the
> Beer Homebrewing CDROM.  I recently saw this article in rec.crafts.brewing
> and felt that I should respond to some of the points raised in it.
> 
> The CDROM was created by myself, Barry Lyon and Monty Nelson.  Barry
> and Monty are accomplished homebrewers, and I'm a software engineer.
> Monty and I wrote the programs and Barry was the primary technical
> consultant on brewing.  I learned everything I know about brewing
> from producing this CDROM.

[... stuff deleted]
[mostly critique and rebuttal of the CD]  [fred's address is flloyd at qrz.com]

> >> Back issues of "The Homebrew Digest" mailing list, also hypertext.
> >
> >Well. Sort of.
> >
> >The issues are stripped of their structure and the articles stuffed
> >into help format. This interface for reading digests could be
> >charitably called "horrible". It's about as useful as a feather
> >duster at a log rolling contest. (SIGH)
> 
> If you ever get the chance, go to the ftp server at stanford and have a
> look at the back issure archives of the HBD.  From there devise a
> workable plan to automatically extract this information, cross
> reference it, index it, insert hypertext links into it, and make it
> Microsoft Windows compatible.  Make sure that your proposed method
> is fully automated and can be performed on a typical UNIX workstation
> with about 32MB of RAM.  Also make sure that the resultant interface
> is so intuitive that a person with no UNIX experience and minimal
> MSDOS Windows expertise can easily glide through it.
> 
> 
> >Articles show up, one by one. If you want to find the tasting notes
> >for those tempting christmas ale recipes (which usually start
> >poppin' up around late November or December), you need to flip,
> >article by article, through about 8000 articles to get to the
> >right point, unless of course the poster was kind enough to have
> >posted the keyword you're looking for in the Subject line, which
> >doesn't always happen (look for example at Al Korzona's posts...
> >he puts about 10 subjects into each message. Think you're gonna
> >find his posts by searching on Subject line? Maybe. Probably not.)
> >Take a look at any arbitrary HBD and just *SEE* if you're likely
> >to reliably hit subjects by looking at the "Subject" lines. Here,
> >I'll do it for you. Here's a digest that just came in, number 1556
> >from 10/19/94. We have "Help! Technology exceeds understanding!",
> >"private consumption" where Dick Dunn talks about legal issues,
> >a very interesting post from Norm Pyle with a subject of "1338",
> >Wiley Coyote has a subject there of "Oh yeah...", and Mike
> >Morton has a post titled "Chilled Out". Think you're gonna find
> >*ANY* of these posts with a search command? Not a chance. You
> >need arbitrary search on the contents of the message (like
> >grep or a wais index---or at least a hypertext subject index).
> 
> Ahh. Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.  Short of having
> someone read and edit every article and manually make a database
> entry for each of the 8000 articles, the task becomes somewhat
> non-deterministic.  If I were Microsoft, I'd simply have a staff of
> 20 or so programmers 'get right to work on it'.  But then, the
> street price would probably be closer to $79.95.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------

[...] more stuff deleted...  If you want a complete copy, I COULD mail
it to you, but I hope I don't get a flood of requests because I only
have a paltry 512k of total disk space in this account.  Thanks.

PS.  Sorry if anyone else tried to email me on Monday when my mailer was
screwed up.  It's ok now. 

- --Brian Pickerill  <00bkpickeril at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu>

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 14:34:20 -0800
From: Lowell Hart <lhart at CATI.CSUFresno.EDU>
Subject: Low-tech Yeast Handling

In response to...
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:54:35 -0600 (CST)
>From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
>Subject: Yeast Culturing

Who is put off by the cost and effort of full-blown yeast ranching...
>1. Can I culture the yeast in a simpler method.  Does somone out there do 
>it "By the seat of their pants" or have a simplified method of doing it?

Maybe rather then looking at actual culturing, you wanna look at more
efficient use of the commercial cultures. Here's what I do.

Plan your brewing schedule to include beers that will use the same yeast.
I have messed successfully with the Wyeast California Lager strain, the
Anchor yeast. Pop the packet, run up a starter (I do a couple-3, big
pitches being desireable) and make the first beer. I brewed a California
Common first. Rack off the primary, and harvest the barm in the bottom. I
just swirl up the lees and pour into sanitized 22oz. tall bottles. I happened
to wind up with 3 of these this time, don't fill them, just some at the bottom.
I feed these some new wort, let them work, then cap & chill after
the bubbling slows down. It has also worked without feeding, but why
push it. This gives you healthy, happy yeast, in quantity, to use next
batch. Feed these again when you plan to use them, in a new sanitized bottle.
I then used one of these to pitch a Porter (Anchor used the steam
beer yeast on theirs, apparently until very recently), one the second runnings
 of the Porter, and the third a Cream Ale for a true bastard ale. All were
fermented at 65F and then cold aged. All came out clean and tasty, and the
non-opaque brews cleared up nicely with time. The whole process was
performed over a 3 week period from harvest to final pitch, but I have
left the refrigerated pitches as long as a month after harvesting. I
brew the paler beers for the batch harvested, as I figure a dark barm might
discolor a later lighter brew. Total yeast cost for 4 batches of beer: the
one $4 Wyeast packet. 

Here's why I think this works: I have been told that the barm off of a 
good vigorous primary is healthy and hungry, even with whatever trub
you might collect. By feeding it before storage, and before use, it
stays that way. These are big pitches compared to the original Wyeast
packet, and a big pitch has a better chance of beating out whatever
nasties you may wind up with in the bottles. The later brews seem to benefit
from having an earlier generation then if you did it serially (pitching
one after the other could lead to mutation). 

You can't get away with sloppy techniques: I sanitize bottles in iodaphor,
flame the necks with a lighter before transfer, most of the stuff in the
yeast FAQ. You still have to be anal about it, but mebbe not so much as if
you're trying to grow a big pitch out of what sticks to a loop.

As for equipment, I've said I just use 22oz. bottles, plus a little Kymax
funnel, and sanitized caps. A small stopper and S-shaped bubbler are
needed after you've fed the pitches. I even have a system for telling the
bottles apart - Rogue Brewing has fancy silkscreened labels on their
tall bottles. I just use one of each in the process, and note which label
indicates which contents. Easy, and colorful, too. I should say that 
I am experimenting with 1gal. jugs and large wine jugs with small fluid
amounts to take advantage of the fermenter geometry work George Fix 
talked about. Works well, but you can't fit as many into a sanitizing
bucket...  


>Please dont point me to the Yeast faq, I've read it, I want answers from 
>people who do this on a regular basis, cheaply and efficently, not 
>chemists.  

My degree is in music (composition), and I make REALLY GOOD BEER.
(Down, ego, down!) I look forward to hearing whatever response this post
brings.

Lowell Hart
San Joaquin WortHogs
Raketenflugplatz, Fresno
lhart at cati.CSUFresno.edu

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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 18:27:18 -0500 (EST)
From: MYETTE at delphi.com
Subject: Tin Can taste

Can someone help me out here.  My husband bottles beer in bottles (duh?) Well
for some reason the beer tastes like it was beer bought in a can!  Can anyone
help explain this? 

We used Wyeast 1098. The new English London Special yeast

Ann

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 16:05 EST
From: Eric Hale <S=Eric_Hale%S=Hale%G=Eric%I=ER%BECHTEL at mcimail.com>
Subject: Bell's Pale Ale - Recipe Request

My favorite commercial microbrew beer of late has been Bell's Pale Ale.  Has
anyone got a clue for a recipe?  Bell's is out of Kalamazoo, Michican. 
Check it out if you can get it.  

Eric "what the" Hale


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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 17:08:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "THE FOURWHEELIN' 'TALIAN WANNABE JOKEMEISTER." <AD75173%LTUVAX.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Green Beer around the corner


I hate hearing about seasonal beers AFTER everyone's brewed them...  I've
been a little late on a few lately..  Well, I'm going to start a Christmas
Ale soon...
   But there's one I want to get a jump on...  Green Beer for St. Patrick's
Day.  I figured there was some Irish history about this stuff, and there
was some natural way to make it green, but an Irish friend said green beer
is just an American way to celebrate St. Patrick's Day.  I heard it was
made by just adding green food coloring.  Does anyone know of a way to make
green beer by adding something natural?  Green beer head would be cool.  I
thought about adding a little blue to a yellow lager, but blueberries are
probably too purple.

Thanks for the early help..

Aaron Dionne, from Southfield, MI

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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 21:08:48 -0600 (CST)
From: VODACEKT at UWSTOUT.EDU
Subject: HSA and the Sierra archives

I have read a lot about HSA and was wondering about the limits of it.
I have alwas poured my hot wort (not boiling) directly into a
carboy partially filled with cold water. From this you can guess that I
use extracts. Not lazy, just satisfied with my product. At what tempreature
is HSA no longer a problem? 80C? 50C? 30C? or should i go all the way
down to pitching temp?

Also, I have tried time and again to get ANY kind of response at
sierra.stanford.edu so I can check the archives. I can login and
that works OK, but no command from that point on works, even
following the VERY SHORT help message I sent for from the list server.
If anyone that has had the same problem can help me, I sure would
appreciate it.

Thomas Vodacek      vodacekt at stout.edu

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Date: 8 Nov 94 19:57:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: acronyms

Gary posted some acronyms.  Here are my comments on some of them.
>AAE       Alpha-Amylase Enzyme

Never have seen this one.

>ABC       Anchor Brewing Company

>From context, I've determined that this is usually the equivalent of
BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobbaco and Firearms) in some states.  That is
not to say that Anchor Brewing collects liquor taxes in some states, but
that this acronym does not usually mean Anchor Brewing Company.

>BAE       Beta-Amylase Enzyme

This too, I've never seen.

>DE        Diastatic Enzyme

No.  Usually, it means "diatomaceous earth," the skeletons of tiny marine
animals (like the stuff that the white cliffs of Dover are made of) and
commonly used for filtering, especially in filtering beer

>DMS       Dimethylsulfide

Sometimes, you can tell by context, this is used for Diastatic Malt Syrup.
If you read Edme DMS extract, you can assume this meaning.

>EE        Extraction Efficiency

A new one on me.  No, really, this, AAE and BAE are not common acronyms.

>NBJCP     National Beer Judge Certification Program

That should be just BJCP and up there with the B's.  National is just
one of the ranks: Recognized, Certified, National, Master and Grand Master.

>SM        Sodium metabisulfate

Someone just started this one, and I don't think it merits inclusion
here.  I've never heard it anywhere except in this one person's post.

You may also want to add GBBF (Great British Beer Festival).

Al.

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Date: 9 Nov 94 16:37:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Acid for pH adjustment

To date, I've received only one datapoint from a homebrewer that
uses lactic acid, acid blend or some other type of acid for mash
and/or sparge pH adjustment.  Please send me your experiences and
include info on your water (Ca, Mg, HCO3/CO3...).  I'll summarize
and post.
Thanks.
Al.

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Date: 9 Nov 94 23:54:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Numbers

Timothy writes:
Predicted O.G. for 4 gallons was calculated as shown:
 
        ingredient      degrees/lb      lbs used        contribution
        ----------      ----------      --------        ------------
        liquid extract  35              3.3             115.5
        pale malt       28              4.0             112
        crystal/toast   8               1.25             10
        choc/bp malts   2               0.75            1.5
                                                        ------------
                                                total   239 (239/4=59.8=60)
                                                O.G.    1.060
 
(degrees/lb and calculations ala Brewer's Resource catalog)
 
Measured O.G. corrected for temperature was 1.061.
  
This is an efficiency of essentially 100%, considering measurement error.  
WHOA!  Either I had beginner's luck or Fix's schedule is truly superior.  
Do the numbers sound right??

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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 94 18:01:00 -0800
From: rob.skinner at kandy.com (ROB SKINNER)
Subject: to culture or not?


RN>I have been reading for some time now how you can culture your own yeast, 
RN>and/or culture yeast from beer (previous or other peoples).  I picked up 
RN>the YEAST faq, (before you all tell me to read it :-) ) and it seems like 
RN>a VERY complicated process.  At least in the FAQ it seems complicated.  I 

	Don't be fooled.  Culturing your own yeast is simple, inexpensive, 
	and can be done with household tools.  But, like many other things, 
	it's sometimes easier if you let an expert assemble all the equipment
	you will need. Brewer's Resource (800) 827-3983 offers several kits 
	that are very inexpensive.  The best part of their kits is the 
	pamphlet written by Dr. Maribeth Raines.  Her instructions are 
	foolproof and very easy to follow. 	ANY goofball can culture yeast 
	by following her guidelines (hey, I did it!).

RN>1. Can I culture the yeast in a simpler method.  
 	
 	Culturing from slants is about as easy as it gets (unless you count
 	tearing open a packet of Red Star).  Chololate chip cookies are
 	more difficult.

RN>2. Is it worthwhile to do?  

	If your trying to save money, culturing your own is much better than
	liquid packets.  My reason for culturing yeast is that I now have 
	the ability to use a yeast that is appropriate for the style of beer 
	I'm brewing.  I also think that culturing has been the single greastest 
	factor in improving the quality / character	of my beer.

RN>3. Does yeast quality degrade when I culture it myself?  
    
    I haven't experienced any problems.

RN>4. What parts do I need EXACTLY to culture the yeast.

	You could actually get by with some baby food jars for slants, a 
	mason jar for starters, a bent piece of wire for an innoculation 
	loop, and a saucepan and canning pot for making slants.  You'll 
	also need agar and DME.	 

RN>5. Is this REALLY thrifty enough to go ahead with.
 
	It depends on how thrifty you want to be.  I probably average two
	bucks a batch.  If you get serious about keeping the cost low, 
	keeping the cost under a buck shouldn't be a problem.

RN>6. How time consuming is this?  

	About ten minutes to innoculate a starter from a slant and about
	fourty minutes on another day to prepare a larger starter.  
	Also figure a couple hours for the preparation of slants and small
	starters (you'll make a whole bunch during one session).  Or 
	you can opt to buy pre-poured slants and starters.  This adds to 
	the cost somewhat, but is still much cheaper than liquid yeast.

Rob Skinner
rob.skinner at kandy.com


 ..  "But, your honor, the light had dopplered to green."
- -- MR/2 2.03 NR

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 11:55:01 CST  
From: "David Sapsis" <dbsapsis at nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Barleywine shelflife

Recent discussions about the durability of strong beers have indicated a
wide range of flavor changes associated with multi-year aging.  Having the
good fortune of saving a sample from each of my barleywines brewed since
1987, I assembled a panel of tasters last night to do a vertical tasting of
these eight vintages.  All beers were made all grain, with no extract
whatsoever.  The results were suprising to me, particularly for the oldest
two vintages, that I had not tasted in a number of years.
The consensus of the panel was that the very oldest (1987) was the best,
followed by (almost unilateral) 1992.

The 1987 vintage was made with EDME yeast, starting gravity of 1092, and
bottle conditioned (with the same yeast).  Very complex sherry-like nose,
full of alcohol and plum/current aromas.  The flavor was very smooth, and
the oxidized nature did not distract from from its pleasant, slighlty sweet
finish.  Some, but not much, hop bitterness reamined.  Head and conditioning
were just right.  I was really surprised that a seven plus year old beer
could still be so enjoyable.

1988 was made with a liquid culture of Whitbread B (the old stuff) obtained
from a local micro.  Starting gravity 1089, and hopped harder than any beer
I have ever made.  Last night it had a very strong sherry nose, sweet and
quite complex in fruity esters.  Unfortunately, the flavor had a distinct
astringent quality that came on in mid-to late-mouth that was a definite
problem.

1989 was made with SN yeast, and although it smelled OK, had a significant
lactic problem.  Worst of the bunch.

1990, again made with SN, was the highest gravity of the lot (1100), but was
fairly mild in its nose and flavor profile.  No hops, but again that
oxidized malt sherriness prevelent in most of the beers tasted.  However,
this was the only one that had the accompanying wet-cardboard late mouth
flavor that cloyed in the palatte.  Not very good.

1991, SN yeast again, og 1094, was quite good, and one taster picked it as
his second favorite.  Nose better than flavor in my book, as it seemed
simply too sweet.

1992, SN yeast (last time, I promise), and the first that I counter pressure
filled.  Very complex esters, with plum and berry like fruit and alcohol
dancing across the toungue.  Quite nice, and my pick as second best.
Slightly undercarbonated, but OK.  Lasting body that really stayed with you
for a satisfying late finish (kept going and going and going...).

1993, made with medocino yeast, og 1095.  Great nose, with only a trace of
sherriness.  Fairly prevalent hop nose competing with malt and alcohol.
Taste: Whoah!  Enormously bitter and complex, a little too dry.  Very
different than all the previous vintages.  Very clean, but too bitter and
dry for style.

This years (9 weeks old, drawn from a keg), made with a limited availability
ale yeast, og 1092.  Dry hopping from home grown Perle very easily
identifyable.  Nice malt and alcohol aromas slightly swamped by hop nose.
Flavor realatively subdued in hops, with sweetness dominating.  I think this
one will not lay down that well, I may even choose to add some iso-alpha to
bring up the bitterness.  Definitely a change of pace in that fresh hops in
the nose dominated, but malt and alcohol were all that were left in the late
palatte.

All the beers were quite bright, and were aged at cellar temps.
Unfortunately, the 1987 was the last bottle, but it was quite rewarding to
get a consensus opinion about its quality.  I dont know what to make of the
fact that it was the only one made with dry yeast.  Luck perhaps.  It was a
very good beer when it was young, having taken a second place in the Oregon
State Fair in 1988 (losing to Jeff Frane's best of show effort) with solid
scores in the mid 40's.  Although I'm certain that it tastes nothing like it
did then ( well, maybe a little) it was still quite fine after considerable
aging.  Take home message: try aging your strong ales, the results might
just please you.

**********
A couple comments on Gary's acronym post from yesterday.  Two acronyms
presented might offer confusion.  ABC (Anchor Brewing Co. ) also stands for
the Alcoholic Beverage Commision (the state watchdog for alcohol related
crimes).  And DE (diastatic enzyme) is also used to refer to diatomacious
earth, a substance (nasty!) used in lab proceedures as well as for filtering
beer.
Cheers y'all,
dave

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Date:     Thu, 10 Nov 94 7:59:08 EST
From: Jon Petty <jpetty at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Mash too hot

To make a long story short, I let the mash temp get too high and although I did
get complete conversion, I got very little fermentation activity.  I suspect I
have 5 gal of mostly unfermentable dextrins. Any suggestions about salvaging
this batch would be appreciated. Champagne yeast ?

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 20:24 EST
From: Harry Covert <0007059940 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Counter-Pressure Bottling

What is the general net wisdom about the proper pressure for counter
pressure bottling?  I bottled a recent batch at the same pressure as the
kegs and they turned out a little on the flat side.  Is there a formula for
a certain amount of pressure over the keg pressure, to bottle at?

Harry Covert



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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 94 05:08:00 UTC
From: mike.keller at genie.geis.com
Subject: Corny Kegs

 
In HBD-1574 Jeff Stampes suggests restaurant supply places as a
likely source of used kegs cheap. Another possibility is the local
soft drink plant or depot, like the local Pepsi place...to get Coke
kegs!
 
The way it works, a restaurant signs up with say, Coca Cola for soft
drink supplies. They pay a small deposit (like $5/keg) for their
kegs, and as they empty 'em the driver comes by and swaps in full
kegs for empties.
 
So what happens when the restaurant owner gets ticked off at Coke? Do
they call 'em up and say "Come and get yer kegs?" Nope, they just
call up Pepsi and sign up for their service, and when the Pepsi
driver shows he says "Will you take these kegs away with you?"
 
Now what're the Pepsi people gonna do with Coke kegs? They can't use
'em, they're incompatible. (and they've been contaminated) They aren't
gonna call up the Coke folks and say "We got a couple of your kegs,
want us to bring them over to you?" No, they just sit around until
someone throws them out with the scrap, or someone like you just
happens to ask "Got any kegs you can't use?"
 
Which is how I came by three kegs. My brother in law drives for
Pepsi, he thought we could scam a couple of kegs for the deposit, but
it wouldn't work. BUT in his chat with one of the other drivers, he
found out about these useless kegs, and they became ours for free.
 
Asking is free.
 
Mike Keller, Zymurgy RoundTable, GEnie
 
 

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:18:56 --100
From: dejonge%hotspot at hotspot.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Re: Master Judge is Stumped!

In HBD 1575 Chuck Cox asks for suggestions on the cause of
the following flaws:

> - Reduced Maltiness
> - Reduced Complexity
> - Increased DMS
> - Increased Oxidation
> - Increased Haziness

The first two and the last could indicate a hyper-attenuating
yeast (mutation of infection?). If the fermenter was leaking
perhaps the oxidation came first (nr 4) and some critter enetered
the brew (1,2, and 5 could follow)
I'm not sure about the DMS, maybe another sulpher compound by
dying yeast or bacteria?

> - Upset Stomach
> - Increased Flatulence
> - Reduced Sex Drive

1 and 2 could also result from a nasty infection, number 3 would
follow because who feels like sex if he's sick and farting...

- ------------- 
Marc de Jonge         (dejonge at geof.ruu.nl)

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 09:20:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan_Marshall <AK200032 at Sol.YorkU.CA>
Subject: Beer Tasting, Master Judge Cox

On "Beer Tasting", Aiden "4K" Heerdegen writes:

ak> "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV> wrote:
ak> 
ak> > I am trying to get better at recognizing and describing flavors in 
ak> > beer.
ak> 
ak> Brian Pickerill  <00bkpickeril at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:
ak> 
ak> > I have to admit that as a brewer of only just over 1 year, I still have 
ak> > a lot of trouble understanding what tastes like, for example, diacetyl.
ak> 
ak> Never fear gents, there is something advertised on the 
ak> rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup which may be just what you are 
ak> looking for (this is an old one but I see them posted quite 
ak> regularly): 

<snip>

ak> The eleventh IRC beer tasting will take place on Tuesday, November 1, 
ak> at 10pm EST.  We will meet on #tasting of IRC.

<specifics of this old tasting snipped>

These IRC beer tastings are held on Tuesday nights at 10:00 Eastern 
time.  I don't recall if they are every week or every other week.

ak> Seeing as I can't get any of the beers mentioned here (and I have 
ak> been unable to set up an IRC client ..  &*^% at *!  thing!) I have 
ak> not tried joining in ..  so I don't know how good they are.  

For those that can't join in (i.e., no IRC), a summary is usually 
posted.  While long, they do make interesting reading and can be quit 
informative.

Also, Joel Plutchak runs a Virtual Pub tasting series in alt.beer and 
rec.food.drink.beer.  This is not interactive like IRC, but it has 
also proven to be an informative interchange of opinions.

I also maintain a FAQ "Learning about Beer and Tasting" posted monthly 
to alt.beer and r.f.d.b.  It is *not* geared toward people thinking 
about the BJCP, but to people that like good beer, but want to bring 
their level of knowledge and appreciation up to be able to post 
reviews like those that get posted to the newsgroups.  This FAQ is 
available at the rfdb archives, sierra.stanford.edu /pub/homebrew/rfdb
as beer-learning.faq.

   **********

Master Judge Chuck Cox is Stumped!

cc> Sometimes it seems everthing goes wrong...
cc> 
cc> I recently brewed a disappointing batch of Oktoberfest....

<snip>

cc> In addition, I have experienced some unpleasant side-effects that appear
cc> to be a result of drinking this beer:
cc> 
cc>  - Upset Stomach
cc>  - Increased Flatulence
cc>  - Reduced Sex Drive
cc> 
cc> Please let me know if you have any suggestions for a single error that
cc> could account for all these faults. 

You're getting old!

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 07:04:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Uh, oh, Chuck

Chuck Cox wrote:

> 
> In addition, I have experienced some unpleasant side-effects that appear
> to be a result of drinking this beer:
> 
>  - Upset Stomach
>  - Increased Flatulence
>  - Reduced Sex Drive
> 
> Please let me know if you have any suggestions for a single error that
> could account for all these faults. 


Chuck, sorry to tell you but the single error is: you got old!  I'm not
sure what's wrong with your beer, but farting and a reduced sex drive
(did you pass 40 recently?).

=======================

Anent the discussion about regional postings in the digest: some
enterprising souls in Seattle (Dave Brockington? & ?) have started a
regional list dedicated to beer and homebrewing discussion.  I gather
it's been on a while but just now gone "public".  Lots of gabble about
places to drink, etc., which one can easily delete or read.

So, perhaps this is the ideal solution for people wanting/needing to get
and disperse regional information?  Ideal, of course, assuming someone
is willing to get a list up and running.

- --Jeff



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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:07:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Embarrasment

(From *Jeff* Renner)

I'm sooo embarassed.  Well, maybe not that much.  But in my HBD 1575 
request for real names and geographic locations in posts, I somehow 
chopped off the end of my post, which included my name and city!  Here is 
the end of the post:

Besides, you might find there is another brewer in your area you didn't 
know about and could invite to your local club, or start a club.  And you 
would know who to privately e-mail for a local question.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 94 7:27:28 PST
From: ELQ1%Maint%HBPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: S.S. Cookers

  Good Morning all you beautiful brew Folks,  just a word on cookers,
  Bass Pro Winter Catalog has S.S. cookers, 170,000 btu on sale for $89!!
  These are all S.S. with shiney wind shield, sturdy legs etc. Also in 
  double burners, and boy oh boy, would I like to see a boil over on this
  shiney new cooker, but I already have a Kamp Chief. Bass Pro can be
  reached at 800-227-7776 not a customer, just passing on some info.

    Ed Quier               ELQ1 at PGE.COM          707-444-0718 wk.

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 94 10:42:20 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: _Imperial_? Stout...don't mean to nitpick, but....               

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
      Research Analyst
Subject: _Imperial_? Stout...don't mean to nitpick, but....

Strangely enough, Jeff Renner sent his reply to the huge-stout/needs-hops-
and- hydrometer guy's post right after I did, and we gave similar responses.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I would disagree with Jeff saying that what
the brewer (sorry, forgot name) had was an Imperial Stout. To be certain, he
had a very high gravity beer that was brewed with the intention of it being a
stout. But I wouldn't characterise it as an Imperial for the very reason that
it doesn't have nearly the bitterness of an Imperial Stout or Barley Wine.

I know what Jeff probably had in mind when he said it, but it's important to be
more careful with language (not that I'm not guilty of a little imprecision
from time to time :-) ). We have a wonderful diversity of brewers and other
beer folk on the digest: professional brewers, biologists, chemists,
near-professionals, equipment fanatics, people like me who like to keep things
simple but still manage to brew (usually) enjoyable beers, beer travellers,
and, yes, people just getting started and learning about this wonderful
passion. A fair number of recipes of one sort or another get posted; I usually
page down past them because I prefer to formulate my own recipes, but some
people try them. If you say that the recipe shown was an Imperial, except that
it needed a little more hops, someone's gonna try it (with a marginal boost in
the hops) and either be disappointed, or enjoy the beer (whatever you might
call it) and _then_ be disappointed after entering it in a competition and have
the judges say it wasn't anywhere close to style.

It takes more than high gravity to make an Imperial, and I'm sure Jeff knows
that, but there are people who are learning about beer who might not know it
yet and we should be careful about inadvertently giving bad information.

I hope I don't need the flame-resistant suit (I don't use asbestos for health
reasons :-) ) for sounding picky.

I can't wait for the release of the New Glarus Belgian Cherry this afternoon,

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:45:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Re: Master Judge is Stumped!

Chuck Cox refers to a recent batch of O'Fest that he brewed and lists
a *major* set of problems that he has identified with this beer: 

> - Reduced Maltiness 
> - Reduced Complexity 
> - Increased DMS 
> - Increased Oxidation 
> - Increased Haziness 

Also some side effects: 

> - Upset Stomach 
> - Increased Flatulence 
> - Reduced Sex Drive 

At first it would appear that Chuck's request to identify a single
error that would account for all of these problems is an
impossibility.  However, this is not the case.  There is, in fact, a
common element among his problems:  lack of coriander!  Chuck, could
you have inadvertantly left it out of your latest batch? 

The most recent issue of Zymurgy (Special issue, 1994) contains an
article on this wonder spice that literally lets the cat of the bag. 
It is revealed that in small amounts, coriander adds malty complexity
to Oktoberfests.  This would also account for Chuck's increased sense
of DMS - the lack of coriander obviously lowered the complex malty
aroma of his beer, leaving only a DMS nose (which is always present in
small amounts in Continental lagers). 

In addition, Chuck could have avoided both HSA oxidation and haziness
very simply.  A few coriander seeds added to the mash has been shown
to reduce HSA, slow the oxidation process of beers, and quickly clear
the final brew (again, see the Coriander article, page 44, Special
Issue 1994 Zymurgy). 

On a final note, the Coriander article states that the spice is known
to have health benefits. Coriander teas are used to both calm upset
stomachs and cure flatulence.  In addition, it has occasionally been
referred to as an aphrodisiac ("The One Thousand and One Nights", for
example). 

So Chuck, I hope that this helps you out on your next brew.  There are
other terrific tidbits of info in that Zumurgy article.  I recommend
that everyone read it carefully so that you can start using coriander
and not have the same problems that beset Chuck. 

Steve Stroud 

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Date: 10 Nov 94 15:33:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Virgin mash/virgin brew/weird "snowglobe" yeast

Timothy writes:
>Predicted O.G. for 4 gallons was calculated as shown:
> 
>        ingredient      degrees/lb      lbs used        contribution
>        ----------      ----------      --------        ------------
>        liquid extract  35              3.3             115.5
>        pale malt       28              4.0             112
>        crystal/toast   8               1.25             10
>        choc/bp malts   2               0.75            1.5
>                                                        ------------
>                                                total   239 (239/4=59.8=60)
>                                                O.G.    1.060
> 
>(degrees/lb and calculations ala Brewer's Resource catalog)
> 
>Measured O.G. corrected for temperature was 1.061.
>  
>This is an efficiency of essentially 100%, considering measurement error.  
>WHOA!  Either I had beginner's luck or Fix's schedule is truly superior.  
>Do the numbers sound right??

No, not in my experience.  The 35 ppg for the syrup is about right, but the
28 ppg for the Pale malt already accounts for non-100% efficiency -- depending
on the maltster, 100% efficiency would be between 30 and 34 ppg.  The problem
with your calculations is the crystal/toast and choc/bp ppgs.  If you use
32 ppg for the pale, 28 for the crystal/toast and 20 for the choc/bp, you
can then figure out your efficiency.

Your efficiency is more a factor of your lauter tun, pH and crush quality
than it is a factor of what your mash schedule is.  Sure, if you use a lot
of unmalted grains or flaked oats you will get a much easier (and therefore
more efficient) lauter if you use glucan and protein rests, but for straight
pale/crystal/color malts, the mash schedule should not alter your efficiency
more than a point.

*******
Shane writes:

    1)  Is two stage fermentation a good idead?  If so, is it better to use two
glass carboys, or a plastic fermenter then the carboy?
    2)  HSA, how can I, a beginner, avoid this?  Is it really critical to
making good brew?
    3)  What is the "best" way to pitch dry yeast?  a starter culture?
rehydration? none of the above?
    4)  What is the "best" sterilizing agent to use?  I hate using Chlorox!
    5)  How does this electronic forum operate? IOW, did I do this right???

I'll reply in reverse order.

5. Not quite -- you should have first checked the FAQs for your answers
and then posted if you still didn't understand or had additional questions.
I'll be terse with the rest of the answers since most of them are in one
FAQ or another.

4. I too prefer to avoid using bleach.  I use either One-Step (yes, it is
a sanitizer, just not govt. certified yet to be called one) or Iodophor,
depending on my mood.  Don't soak anything in either of these too long
since the One-step will leave a carbonate residue and the Iodophor will
stain plastics brown after a few days soaking.

3. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in 90-110F sanitized water.  I boil up
a cup of water in a pyrex container, let it cool to 100F, sprinkle yeast,
let sit 15 min, pitch.

2. As a beginner, it will take some time to learn the mechanics of brewing,
but it won't take too long.  Cool to about 80F before aeration with
an ice bath, sanitized-water-icecubes or a wort chiller.  Avoiding HSA is
not critical to making good brew, but IMO it is critical to making great,
as-good-as-commercial brew.

1. I use single-stage fermentation for virtually all my ales.  Using a 2ndary
will mean a little less yeast in the bottom of the bottles, but I feel that
the additional transfer is not worth the potential oxidation/infection unless
you are lagering or if you have an excessive amount of cold break (usually
not the case with most extracts).  I also use a 2ndary if I'm making a fruit
beer since I let the base beer ferment out in the primary before adding the
fruit.  Glass, IMO, is better than plastic because it is virtually
scratch-proof, is an oxygen barrier and allows you to do blowoff.

*********
Todd writes (about his odd-smelling beer with snowglobe-like yeast):
>Could this be a mutant, as some suggested in their replies, or could
>these results have something to do with using second runnings (first time
>I've done that)?

If the "chewing an aspirin" aftertaste was actually astringent -- a dry,
puckering kind of flavour, then I suspect that this may have been due to
the pH getting too high during the sparging (the second runnings).  Next
time, check the pH after you take the first runnings and if it's approaching
the higer 5's, acidify your sparge water.  The "vomit aftertaste," well,
that could be enteric bacteria, could be lactic bacteria (is it just very
sour?) or just a particularly unpleasant wild yeast strain.  Even if you
got the right yeast, you probably got something else in there too.  If you
want the Celis yeast, the Wyeast Belgian White yeast is reportedly quite close.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 94 11:14:49 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: IRC Beer Tastings

As a semi-regular participant, I'll chime in here.

We do indeed meet weekly at 10pm EST (GMT-5) Tuesdays on the IRC
channel '#tasting'.  Each week we select two beers.  The first is
specified by brand, the second is usually "another in the same style."
Next week's tasting will be stouts.  In particular #1 is Guinness Pub
Draft (in the can), #2 is any other stout (although I've got Guinness
Extra Stout, to do a back-to-back comparison.)

The quality varies, depending on the participants.  It's a bit
strange at first, sipping beer and typing into the computer, while
watching the comments from others across the world who are doing the
same simultaneously.  But I enjoy it.

One aspect that I've found of value is that other people pick up
different flavors & aromas in a beer than I do.  Then I can go back to
my sample and see whether I find them, too.  Sometimes I do, sometimes
I don't.  Of course, then the question is whether it's sample variance
(different age beers, different storage conditions, etc.) or sensory
variance.  As an example, this week we started with Newcastle Brown.
I commented on it's nutty, malty aroma & flavor.  Another participant
asked whether we smelled any diacetyl.  I hadn't picked it up, but
upon checking, sure enough, there it was.  

Of course, you can do this in person with a group of friends, but I
can't easily go out to the "pub" of an evening (by the time the kids
are in bed, I'm pooped), and I don't have to drive home afterward.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1576, 11/11/94