FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Beer tasting (Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
  Split batch yeast trials (Tom Clifton)
  Slow start (Guy Mason)
  Re: My Virgin MASH! (Jim Ancona)
  Propane Indoors (A.J. deLange)
  Corny kegs & blackstrap molassus ("Klaus Vogel")
  Questions -Keg vs bottle (Steven Lichtenberg)
  Patient critical; need second opinion. (Curt Erickson)
  Master Judge is Stumped! (Chuck Cox)
  Dallas visit/ iodophore plug (CGEDEN)
  stalled or finished? (CGEDEN)
  Hallertauer Mittelfrueh Hops??? (Gene Kraus)
  beerstone, swim suits, yeast, plastic, huge stout (uswlsrap)
  Sweet stout, acronyms(AA%), chlorine, water analysis, IDs (Nancy.Renner)
  Yeast Culturing (Randy M. Davis)
  A Bacterial Infection? ("JESUS H. CHRIST")
   (kschlage)
  Seattle/PNW Beers:  Summary ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Roller Mill,PH Meters, Weinstephan Yeast (Chris Barnhart)
  CD ROM HBD? (CGV1)
  primary vs secondary (Greg Niznik)
  On/Off-line HBD Discussion (npyle)
  Minor correction (Fred Waltman)
  yeast culturing (Eamonn McKernan)
  Bass Ale (Cecila Strickland )
  The Hop Source (Glenn Tinseth)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 15:20:51 EDT
From: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Beer tasting
Full-Name: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen

"Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV> wrote:

> I am trying to get better at recognizing and describing flavors in 
> beer.

Brian Pickerill  <00bkpickeril at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:

> I have to admit that as a brewer of only just over 1 year, I still have 
> a lot of trouble understanding what tastes like, for example, diacetyl.

Never fear gents, there is something advertised on the 
rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup which may be just what you are 
looking for (this is an old one but I see them posted quite 
regularly): 

Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.beer,alt.beer,rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: IRC Beer Tasting #11
Date: 28 Oct 1994 04:37:51 GMT

The eleventh IRC beer tasting will take place on Tuesday, November 1, 
at 10pm EST.  We will meet on #tasting of IRC.

The beers for this week's tasting were selected by those in
attendance at the previous tasting.

The common beer will be Celis White. 

The second beer will be any Belgian Wit (white) style beer.

I hope to see lots of people.

Catch y'all on the rebound, 
			  --Alex
                           (harpua at new-orleans.NeoSoft.com)
                           
The best source of more detailed information on IRC is the IRC FAQ,
available at `http://www.undernet.org/~agifford/undernet/underfaq'.



Sorry of that was a bit long ..  in the spirit of not being 
arcronymist (discriminatory toward the acronym impaired), IRC 
stands for Internet Relay Chat ..  a sort of group interactive 
typing conference thingy.  

Seeing as I can't get any of the beers mentioned here (and I have 
been unable to set up an IRC client ..  &*^% at *!  thing!) I have 
not tried joining in ..  so I don't know how good they are.  

Hope that didn't take up too much space that could have been 
devoted to a discussion of copyright law ..  

Cheers

Aidan

- --
Aidan Heerdegen e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 94 15:59 EST
From: Tom Clifton <0002419419 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Split batch yeast trials

As an educational process I am wanting to prepare a wort and split it into six
one gallon fermenters to develop a familiarity with different yeasts.  To
facilitate this I anticipate a fairly neutral 1.040 wort and fermentation of all
beers at a fixed temperature.  The game plan is:

For 5 gallons

5.5    LBS Alexanders pale liquid extract
0.75   OZ  Willamette 4.5%AA bittering hops - boil 60 minutes

1007       Wyeast German Ale
1028       Wyeast London Ale
1056       Wyeast American Ale
1084       Wyeast Irish Ale
????       Edme Dry Ale Yeast

I am assuming that I will have 12.5 IBU's with a 25% utilization as I can only
boil 2 gallons of wort in a 12 quart kettle.  I anticipate being able to place
five 1 gallon jugs in my brew fridge and to hold the temperature at 60 to 65
degrees.  Any advice on temperature?  Any suggestions on the hops (or does it
matter?).

Bottling and priming can be accomplished by boiling 500ml of water with 3/4 cup
of corn sugar and placing 10ml in each bottle before filling.  This should be a
means of consistently carbonating as might be expected for a normal 5 gallon
batch that would fill perhaps 50 bottles of beer.  

I would love some Email from anybody that has done this or that has some
expertiese along these lines. 

Tom Clifton
St. Louis, MO.



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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 8:34:22 EST
From: Guy Mason <guy at polo.matrixnet.com>
Subject: Slow start


Greetings Fellow Brewers,

1. I recently started a Cranberry\Wheat beer using Wyeast
   Bavarian Wheat liquid yeast (sorry no number).  The foil
   package took 3 days to swell, starter was slow, and
   fermentation didn't start for 2.5 days.  Is this normal
   for this yeast?

2. What does the CW (Collective Wisdom for you acronym fans)
   recommend for a 2-3 cup starter?  How much malt?  How much
   hops?  How long to let it ferment?

TIA

/=====================================================\
| Guy Mason                     \\|//  o(57        )  |
| Matrix Software               |O O|oo (Channels  )  |
| guy at matrixnet.com             | U |   (and Nothin)  |
|                               \ - /   (On        )  |
\=====================================================/

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Date:  9 Nov 94  8:51:10 EDT
From: Jim Ancona <Jim_Ancona.DBS at dbsnotes.dbsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: My Virgin MASH!

In HBD #1574, Timothy P. Laatsch wrote a very informative post about his first 
partial mash.

A few comments:

>MASHING SCHEDULE:

I have been using the lager variation of the George Fix mash schedule (50-60-70 
deg C), and like it a lot. You may want to reread his post titled Yield in HBD 
1506, where he describes his mash schedule and says:

        Note - I now feel (with Narziss) that the time spent in the
        range 45-55C should be keep below 15 mins. if highly
        modified malt is used.

I don't think the 15 minute protein rest at 50C (122F) is necessary with 
(highly modified) Pale Ale malt. Not doing it would simplify the mash process a 
bit.

>SPARGING:

>BIG, BIG Problem-----I may have caused/done hot-side aeration by allowing too 
>much splashing of the sparge outflow.  Is that the proper term?  What 
>ill-effects could the finished product have?  Papazian simply mentions 
>"oxidized" flavors, but I seem to remember something on the HBD about a "wet 
>cardboard" taste.  God be with my brew.  I'll just be sick if all this work 
>was for nothing.  I plan to make some minor equipment modifications to avoid 
>this problem with my next batch.

Relax, don't worry... I believe 'wet cardboard' is the classic oxidation taste, 
but I thinks it usually tends to show up after several months in the bottle, 
not immediately. I also think I remember reading the HSA is more of a problem 
with bitter (hopped) wort (after the boil), rather than with sweet wort. Anyone 
else remember this?

>MASH YIELD:

I think the predicted extract numbers you used to calculate your efficiency are 
too low. I don't have a book here, but I think the numbers are more like 33-35 
pts for Pale Ale and 25-30 for Crystal malts. Even so, your efficiency is up 
around 90%. Very good!

Now all you need is a larger boiling pot to do a full mash. Good luck!

Jim Ancona
janco at dbsoftware.com
jpa at iii.net


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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 09:55:14 est
From: A.J._deLange at csgi.com (A.J. deLange)
Subject: Propane Indoors



"CANNON_TOM" <CANNON_TOM at hq.navsea.navy.mil> posted last week a
summary of 28 responses to a question on the advisability of using
propane burners indoors. While I agree in principal that this may
be inadvisable I'd like to comment on some the points the respondants
raised. My comments are not to be interpreted as an endorsement of
the use of propane in the house:

>1.)  Propane sucks in large amounts of oxygen, on the order
>      of depleting an enclosed house of its total supply within an
>      hour.  Massive amounts of ventilation required (more than a
>      few open windows) in order to resupply oxygen.
		  
I estimate that a 35,000 BTU/hr propane burner at full bore consumes 330 cubic
feet of air in an hour (calculation at end of post).  My kitchen is 19 x 18 x
7.5.
(all feet) for a volume of 2565 cubic feet. Thus, to stay ahead of the burner,
about 13% of the air in the kitchen needs to be replenished each hour. This 
demand 
is easily met by an open window.

>2.)  Carbon Monoxide build-up after combustion is also life
>          threatening requiring serious ventilation (again, more than
>          a few open windows).

Combustion takes place in the open air and the burners are equipped with car-
burettors that provide, or can be adjusted to provide a correct mixture.
Carbon
monoxide production from a *properly adjusted* burner is at safe levels (but
note
that propane refrigerators whose burners accumulate rust flakes have been
responsible for CO deaths in enclosed cabins/houses).

The 35,000 btu/hr burner also produces about 6 pounds of CO2 in an hour. That
is probably more of a threat than the CO.

>4.)  Occasionally, you have propane leaks.  Being a truly
>          orderless and colorless gas, this can lead to situtations
>          resulting in death.

The propane one buys is definitely not odorless. I think this is because
the suppliers dose it with mercaptans (as the natural gas suppliers do)
rather than the smell of the propane itself.

>5.)  Propane is not the cleanest burning gas in the world
>          and could result in large soot stains on ceilings.

Propane burns very cleanly if the burner is properly adjusted. If it isn't,
the soot goes onto the bottom of the pot.

>6.)  Do you really want to risk a 15.5 gallon boilover
>          inside a house?

Boil-overs are sad events inside or out. The wrath of the brewster is
secondary to the tragedy of lost beer.

The major danger with propane indoors was not mentioned. This is its density
relative to air which causes it to accumulate in low areas. E.g. if an un-
attended bottle sprung a leak, the gas might find its way to the basement. A
spark from a furnace, water heater etc could  then ignite it. The big
caveat with propane is DON'T STORE IT INDOORS.

Air Requirement Calculation : 35,000 BTU/hr is about 37,000 kJ/hr
and the heat of combustion of propane is 2219 kJ/mol so that one of these
burners goes through 37,000/2219 = 16.7 moles of propane per hour
(at 44 grams per mole this is 734 grams or 1.6 pounds). Each mole of propane 
requires 5 moles of oxygen: 5*16.7 = 83.4 mol. One mole of oxygen
occupies about 22.4 litres (at normal pressure and 15C) thus 22.4*83.4
= 1868 litres of oxygen. As air is only 20% oxygen, five times this
volume or 9340 litres of air are consumed per hour. There are 1000 litres
in a cubic meter so the air volume is 9.34 cubic meter/hr which is
330 cubic feet.The combustion of 1 mole of propane also produces 3 moles of
CO2 and so 16.7*3 = 50.1 moles are produced per hour at 35,000 BTU/hr. 
The molecular weight of CO2 is 56 so this means 56*50.1 = 2805 grams or 
6.2 pounds per hour are given off. The combustion also produces 66.8 moles
of water (i.e.about 2.6 pints).

Lisoi!
A.J.
A.J._deLange at csgi.com

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Date:          Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:18:14 EDT
From: "Klaus Vogel" <VOGEL at net2.eos.uoguelph.ca>
Subject:       Corny kegs & blackstrap molassus

A while back I posted a request for a cheap source of corny kegs and I 
would like to summarize the replies.Sorry bout the delay,but it gets 
busy here.

Scott replied that there seems to be a glut of cory kegs in the 
USA.He calls scrapyards and has aquired several for $5 !!!He 
suggested I ask for soda kegs,not to many laymen know the name corny 
kegs.

Bob replied that he has succsess asking in restarants and contacting 
beveage distributers.

I did not get any replies from Canada,apparently there is no glut in 
this country.

Blackstrap molassus.Terry replied he got a recipe for Old Peculiar 
from Dave Lines book,Brewing beers you like to buy that has 
Blackstrap molasus as one ingrediant.He says he was very pleases with 
the results.Joe uses it at the rate of 8 oz. per batch ,just enough 
to so the sampler knows there is something in there ,but can't 
recognize it.I will try a batch with blackstap molassus as soon as I 
can locate some.The closest i got was cooking molassus.Does anybody 
know if cooking molassus is a suitable ingediant for beer or/and if 
they know of a supplier for blacksrap ???

Klaus Vogel

Laboratory Manager
University of Guelph
School of Engineering
Guelph,Ontario
Canada

 














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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:08:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Lichtenberg <steve at Pentagon-EMH6.army.mil>
Subject: Questions -Keg vs bottle

Recently I came across some strange phenomena and wanted to ask the 
collective wisdom of the group what is going on.

In trying to gain more control over color in my brews, I brewed a pale 
ale.  I was able to hit the color I was after exactly (for the first 
time, as I always seem ot overshoot color).  THe beer turned out pretty 
good.  I did several different things to this beer at bottle time just to 
play with it.  First I kegged 5 gallons as I usually do with my beere (no 
washing silly little bottles for me!)).  This beer came out a little 
estery on first tasting but this aged out to a ne=ice clean taseing ale.  
At the same time I took the rest of the beer from the fermenter (approx 
3.5 gallons) and bottled it.  Into half of the bottles I placed halepeno 
peppers, 1 per bottle, straight from my garden.  The pepper beer turned 
out GREAT!  much better than I thought it would.  It tasted like a 
mexican restaurant smells, full of peppers and beer..  I was very pleased 
with this.  The rest of the bottles were filled primed with gyle and 
capped.  After approx 2 months in the bottle, there is a slight phenolic 
taste to the beer in the bottles.  THis is where I am confused.  All 
bottles and the keg were sanitised using the same solution of iodophor, 
they were all bottled at the same time and bottled form the same batch.  
No other variables changed at bottling time.  The only difference was 
that the keg was immediately placed in the refrigeratot and forced 
carbonated.  All of the bottles were placed in empty cases and left at 
room temperature.  When I finally killed the keg, I started chilling the 
bottles and got the phenols.  This has not happened with the chili beer 
(at least I can't taste it) so storage conditions should not be a 
factor.  

My question is where could the phenols have come from?  I usually do not 
rinse the iodophor from my kegs, bottles and simply let them air dry (too 
manby years woking in restaurants with the health department looking over 
your shoulder).  

TIA for any help in resolving this issue.

Hoppy brewing--
- --S
  ^

   
       **** ---- "There's always time for a Homebrew!" ----  ****
      C|~~| -------------- Steven Lichtenberg ------------- C|~~|
       `--'  -------- steve at pentagon-emh6.army.mil -------   `--'
              -------------------------------------------

                 ENJOY LIFE--THIS IS NOT A REHEARSAL



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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 9:52:57 EST
From: Curt Erickson <erickson at koicpk08.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Patient critical; need second opinion.

THE PATIENT:
5 gallons of a Liberty Ale knock off of Stephen Tinsley's recipe.

THE SYMPTOMS:
The taste test, when racked from primary to secondary, revealed beer
which was; booooooring, tasteless, and without any redeeming hop value. 
(not that I won't drink it mind you).

MEDICAL HISTORY:
 8 lbs Pale Passion extract
 1/2 lb 40L Crystal Malt
 1/2 lb Munich Malt
 1/2 lb Cara Pils Malt
 1.5 oz. Mount Hood 60 minutes
 1.0 oz. Mount Hood 30 minutes
  .5 oz. Mount Hood 10 minutes
  .5 oz. Mount Hood  2 minutes 
 EDME dry yeast
 
 I tried a partial mash rather than my usual steep.  
 	150 degrees 30 minutes
 	158 degrees 15 minutes
 	raise to 168 and sparge with a quart of 170 degree water.
 	
 Brewed Saturday specific gravity 1.052
 Racked from primary to secondary Tuesday specific gravity 1.020

UNCHARTED TERRITORY:
The mash temperatures were measured via meat thermometer, accuracy unknown.

The hops was a gift. It came in the form of a "loose brick" (4inx6inx1in),  
Alpha acid % unknown. 

DIAGNOSIS:
As I write this, the error of my ways becomes all to evident.  Rather than 
adding hops at the appropriate time and leaving the previous hops in the 
boil, I added at the right time but I removed the previous hops bag upon 
the new arrival. HOPUS INSUFFICIENTUS.

TREATMENT POSSIBILITIES:
1. Dry hop the secondary, that way it will at least smell like beer.
2. Boil 2 oz of hops in a quart of water for an hour, add to secondary.
3. All the above.

SECOND OPINIONS:
????????????????????????    

Thanks Curt                             erickson at koicpk01.delcoelect.com
I'm not a beer doctor but I play one at home.

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 9:53:10 EST
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Master Judge is Stumped!

Sometimes it seems everthing goes wrong...

I recently brewed a disappointing batch of Oktoberfest.  The problem is
that so many different things went wrong at once.  I have brewed this
award-winning beer several times with no problems, but this time
something went very wrong. 

Based on standard diagnostics, there must be at least half a dozen
different things that went wrong.  However, I have a hard time believing
that so many things could go wrong at once.  I suspect that there is a
single cause to the problems, but I can't determine what it is, so I
figured I would see if anyone else had any ideas. 

The beer was a 1/2 bbl of all-grain Oktoberfest, made with Belgian and
Canadian malts and continental hops.  There was nothing unusual about
the ingredients or processes involved. 

The beer exhibits the following flaws, which were not present in
previous batches:

 - Reduced Maltiness
 - Reduced Complexity
 - Increased DMS
 - Increased Oxidation
 - Increased Haziness

In addition, I have experienced some unpleasant side-effects that appear
to be a result of drinking this beer:

 - Upset Stomach
 - Increased Flatulence
 - Reduced Sex Drive

Please let me know if you have any suggestions for a single error that
could account for all these faults. 

- -- 
Chuck Cox   <chuck at synchro.com>
SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass.
A disarmed citizen is an oppressed citizen.

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Date:         Wed, 09 Nov 94 10:27:00 EST
From: CGEDEN at NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
Subject:      Dallas visit/ iodophore plug


I'll be visiting Dallas next month for a few days and would greatly
appreciate any info on brewpubs, micro's, and interesting Texan beers.
Thanks!  -  Chris Geden (cgeden at nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu)

PS - It seems to me that we need an electronic brewpub directory that
folks could access easily before a trip.  Maybe a faq containijng a guide
to to beer in the 50 most populous American cities.  Does such a thing exist?

PPS - I tried an iodophore the other night to sanitize about 50 bottles.  I'll
never use bleach again!  No smell, no stains, no rinsing, almost no soaking.
Great stuff.

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Date:         Wed, 09 Nov 94 10:29:09 EST
From: CGEDEN at NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
Subject:      stalled or finished?

After doing all singe-stage fermentations for the past year I decided to
go two-stage with a 1.062 OG IPA.  After 6 days of "open" fermentation
I racked to a glass carboy dry-hopped with 1 oz. of East Kent Goldings
hop pellets.  As expected, most of the CO2 in solution was lost during
racking, but it never really came back.  That is, ever since about three
days after racking there has been some foam on the beer surface but
no bubbling through the airlock.  Positive pressure, but no bubbles.  It
has now been almost two weeks in this stationary phase and the only change
that I've seen is that most of the hops have settled (what a pain in the
neck waiting for those hop pellet particles to settle!).  SG is static
at 1.024.  It doesn't taste "sweet" but hop bitterness in the recipe
was high so I don't know if I can trust my palate.  Also, the beer doesn't
look very clear to me, but most of what is suspended in solution *looks*
like little teeny flecks of hop pellets (boy am I sick of those dry hopped
pellets!).
   If its done then why is the final gravity so high (yeast=M&F dry)?
   Why is there still foam on the surface but no 1)change in SG and 2) bubbles
in airlock?
   If I bottle it now will I have exploding bottles in two weeks?
   Am I "worrying" about nothing at all and should just go ahead and bottle it,
high fg, foam and all?
   Or should I relax and wait all the filthy pellet particles settle and
the beer is clear and still?

   Sorry to use up bandwidth over such a simple question but after year of
brewing I am still perplexed over *when* fermentation is sufficiently
complete to go ahead and bottle.

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 10:53:48 EST
From: gkraus at uv1.im.med.umich.edu (Gene Kraus)
Subject: Hallertauer Mittelfrueh Hops???

I am planning on brewing a True German Lager for the holidays and wanted
to use Hallertauer Mittelfrueh hops.   I called HopTech in California
and was told that these hops no longer exist.   They said that all the
brewers that were using Mittelfrueh hops are now using Hallertauer 
"Traditionals".   Does anyone know if this is true and/or has anyone 
used these new traditionals?

Gene Kraus  gkraus at med.umich.edu	Never let your morals 
					get in the way of doing 
					what you know is right! 


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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 94 10:33:26 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: beerstone, swim suits, yeast, plastic, huge stout                

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
      Research Analyst
Subject: beerstone, swim suits, yeast, plastic, huge stout

BEERSTONE: I'm not sure where I picked this one up, but I've had some
success with boiling water and dishwasher (that's -er, not -ing)
detergent in my five gallon S/S pot.

SWIM SUITS: Jeff Stampes' comment suggests that _all_ public beaches
require swim suits. Go read rec.nude (if you can stand the endlessly
repeated topics from uninformed virtual gawkers). Beer and naturism do
go together, but keep itto beer here. :-)

YEAST: $5-$10 for liquid yeast??? Where are you buying this stuff??? I pay
about $3-$4 for Wyeast and YeastLab. But, yes, you can get more than one use,
particularly if you brew every week, as you stated. A couple options. Save the
slurry from your primary (better than using the secondary) in a sanitised
jar--cover it with foil or plastic wrap rather than a lid (you don't want a
yeast and glass  bomb in the fridge). You can pitch that as is (but try to
leave most of the trub behind), but I prefer to put it in a starter--even if
only a few hours ahead if you forget to plan ahead. Without the knowledge or
microscope to check things out (I like to keep things simple, too), I wouldn't
_re_use more than twice. If you brew frequently enough (and want to use that
same strain of yeast in your batches over a short period of time), divide the
slurry into more than one jar--that way you're getting second-generation for
each batch.  Obviously, the longer it's been stored, the more important it is
to get a good starter going before you brew with it.

The other thing that I've read (but haven't done) refers to "parallel yeast
propagation." Before you even brew with it, make a starter and let it ferment
out completely. Bottle and refrigerate a half dozen bottles of this weak beer
and use the dregs from each as an "original" culture--add to starter, et
cetera.... The person who wrote this said something about adding it to a faq,
so you might want to check for details. Perhaps someone who's done this can
comment about results.

PLASTIC BOTTLES: I wouldn't do it just for aesthetic considerations, but I've
seen commercial brews packaged in 1l and 2l bottles. When I was last in BC I
noticed a few. I bought a 1l PET bottle of Nelson Brewing Traditional Ale. It
was quite good (yes, I shared it at a club meeting--I didn't drink it all
myself :-) ). Note that it was not a _clear_ PET bottle. I don't know how well
it would hold up over time. I would be less concerned about it holding pressure
(it works for soda, doesn't it?) than I would be about possible off flavours
from long contact with plastic.

HUGE STOUT: Brian Ellsworth describes his huge stout (13.6 pounds of extract
ina 5 gallon batch) and wonders why it's so damn sweet. Yes, it's definitely
underhopped--3 ounces of S.Goldings isn't going to balance all that malt. Now
about that yeast--you said you used a dry ale yeast and a champagne yeast. Did
you pitch both at the same time, or did you add the champagne yeast later (and
when?) With all that malt, you need an alcohol tolerant yeast. If added at the
same time, the champagne yeast may not have done any good; perhaps someone
moreknowledgable can comment on how the two strains would "compete" with each
other. I'd use some champagne yeast now to try to finish the fermentation.

And, BTW, get a hydrometer. It's a very simple addition to your equipment and
procedure and, I would say, essential--as your present batch demonstrates. No
need to apologise for using extracts, but you really do "need" a hydrometer. If






you'd used one, you'd know how huge your brew really is and would be able tosee
that your yeasties were quitting under all that alcohol. Good luck with it.

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 11:37:22 EST
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Sweet stout, acronyms(AA%), chlorine, water analysis, IDs

(From *Jeff* Renner) 
 
Brian Ellsworth wonders why his stout has finished so sweet (but he doesn't 
use a hydrometer).  Brian, it's supposed to be sweet.  Why?  Because, with 
13.6 lb. malt extract and 2 lbs of grain, you've made an IMPERIAL STOUT with 
a gravity of at least 1100!  It will probably continue to ferment slowly, 
but I'd guess the terminal gravity will be at least 1030, which is sweet, 
especially since it is rather underhopped for an imperial (you really won't 
get very good hop utilization with that high a gravity wort, even if you 
boiled full volume).  You might try making a hop tea with another oz. of 
Chinook and adding it to bring up the bitterness, although you said you 
liked the bitterness level. 
*** 
Gary Bell has published a list of acronyms for beginners.  Thanks for the 
effort, Gary, and I'm sorry you got flamed.  I think that jargon, an any 
sociologist will tell you, is too often used by the "in group" to exclude 
outsiders from understanding.  I agree that we need to be as inclusive as 
possible.  I try to define acronyms and jargon (ie, Zapap, a lauter tun made 
from a bucket within a bucket with a gazillion holes in the bottom of the 
inner bucket for a false bottom, which I submit as an addition to your list) 
the first time I use them in a post.  I think there is room in the digest 
for occasionally defining less common acronyms, but I agree with Jeff Frane 
that many common ones are useful shortcuts.  A jargon FAQ is a great idea. 
 
Now for a gentle correction: 
 
>AA%       Percent Isomerized Alpha Acid 
 
Not quite.  The % alpha acid in hops is not isomerized.  That happens in the 
boiling. 
*** 
Don Rudolph states that preboiling brewing water will eliminate chlorine 
(wrt a discussion of chlorophenols).  Not if the chlorine is added as 
mono-chloroamine, as is now being required by federal standards.  This is 
heat stable.  You need a charcoal filter.  (This info from the water chemist 
at the Ann Arbor Water Dept.).  My experience with chlorophenol (once, 
that's all it takes to change procedure) is that it doesn't go away.  It's 
plenty stable.  And it is a carcinogen, although I doubt that a few ppb or 
even ppm in one 5 gallon batch will be a problem.  I just can't stand the 
taste. 
*** 
Dana Brigham has a water analysis in mg/l, and wonders how to convert that 
to ppm.  They are equivalent, Dana.  In answer to using that water for 
brewing, it's quite soft.  You'd need Ca for mashing, and sulfates for pale 
ale bitterness.  It would work for pilsners as is.  But why do you mistrust 
your municipal water, especially if you filter it for drinking?  Get a free 
analysis from the water department, filter it through a charcoal filter to 
get rid of organics and chlorine, and adjust it as necessary for minerals.  
The consensus here on plastic carboys is that they are hard to sanitize 
because the scratch easily, but are lightweight and unbreakable, so some 
folks use them for primary fermentors.  However, the are O2 permeable, so 
the are not suitable for long storage, such as secondaries. 
*** 
A repeat request.  I find it useful and enlightening to have a name, not an 
anonymous ID, and a location for posters.  How about it?  Location 
especially helps when you have a post that may be affected by geography. 

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 10:07:30 MST
From: Randy M. Davis <rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com>
Subject: Yeast Culturing

Robert W. Mech asked several questions concerning yeast culturing and the
level of difficulty it involves. I too was investigating this topic some
time ago and had come to the conclusion that my rather risky method of
sharing sedimented yeast from primary fermentations with a fellow brewer
was the best I could do without investing too much time and money. Then I
read the yeast FAQ and I saw the solution to my problem. Robert, I know you
asked me not to do this but... in the yeast FAQ; Section III Part 4  Parallel
Yeast Culturing details a painless, extremely inexpensive and IMHO relatively
safe method of doing just what you seem to want to do. You also said "I want
answers from people who do this on a regular basis, cheaply and efficiently,
not chemists."
O.K. I have been doing this on a regular basis, cheaply and efficiently
(sort of) and I am definitely not a chemist. If you make beer and bottle it
and your techniques are good enough that the beer is drinkable, then you can
use this technique for yeast culturing. There is no reason that you
can't get a dozen starters from a single package of liquid yeast for the
cost of the yeast, a little malt extract and some bottle caps. The only
drawback I have discovered so far is that I have much more yeast around than
I will ever be able to use which is not very efficient. 
I'm sure that this method satisfies all of the concerns you expressed in your
questions and will meet your needs. I notice that there are a number of pages
prior to Part 4 in the FAQ that deal with the more complex approaches to yeast
culturing and washing so I suspect that may be why you missed the single page
description which was written for cheap buggers like us. :) 
- ---
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Randy M. Davis  rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com   Calgary Canada  (403)260-4184 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 08:57:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "JESUS H. CHRIST" <S72UWLK at TOE.TOWSON.EDU>
Subject: A Bacterial Infection?

	I've only been brewing for about a year now (I have yet to make the
jump to all grain brewing).  I have recently brewed a batch of IPA (it was
a "True Brew" kit which I modified).  I have followed cleanliness guidelines
carefully to avoid any risk of infection from wild yeast, bacteria, and even
cooties <g>.  Nonetheless, this batch seems to taste a bit, well, off.  It
doesn't show any of the hallmarks of an infected batch and it doesn't taste
like the batch has gone bad, per se.  It tastes a little plastic-like (maybe
that's a bad description as the taste is ever so slight), maybe a little bit
yeasty (also an ever so slight taste), and even a little bit "not so clean".
I realize that these descriptions are somewhat vague, but the taste is vague
as well (although it's not awful-I've brewed a batch of awful, infected beer
and this tastes nothing like that catastrophe!).
	I did alter the recipe as far as the hop content is concerned.  I
decided to experiment (oh-boy) and blended Cascade, Fuggles, Chinook, and
Pearle varieties.  I used the Chinook and Pearle for bittering (although I
saved a small portion for finishing) and the Cascade and the Fuggles for
finishing (although I used a small amount of these for bittering also).
Otherwise I have followed the kit instructions precisely.
	Does anyone have any diagnostic advice?  I honestly don't think that
I have an infected batch on my hands, but again, I've only been brewing for
about a year.  Could this be a lethal combination of hops (I expected
bitterness, but not these other "off" flavors)?  Could this be a "mild"
form of infection (remember, there's no "ring around the collar", gushing,
or any other telltale signs of infection)?  Any help would be greatly
appreciated.


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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:29:07 -0600 (CST)
From: kschlage at casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: 


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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 12:39:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Seattle/PNW Beers:  Summary

Hey brewers,

As requested by Bob Badgerspace, here is the summary of responses I received 
in my quest for Seattle and other Pacific NW bottle-conditioned beers.  
Sources can be provided by private request.

Deschutes Brewing:		Black Butte Porter
				Cascade Bitter
				Mirror Pond Ale
				Obsidian Stout

Big Time Ale House:		good brewpub w/ some 22 oz. bottles also
				Bhagwan's Best IPA (theirs?)

Liberty Brewing:		no specific varieties mentioned

Others to note:			Pyramid Hefeweizen
				Thomas Kemper Heffe-weizen
				(both MAY NOT be fermentation yeast)

I presume that this is by no means a comprehensive listing.  Anyone like to 
embellish??

- ----------------------------------

On another note, it seems that my "Virgin Mash" calculations were a bit 
conservative for predicting OG---i.e. it should have been higher due to 
larger contributions from the extract and the pale.  IOW, my efficiency was 
not 100%, but more like 85-90%.  My numbers were based on info in the Brewer's 
Resource catalog---numbers which have been disputed in several replies. Some 
respondents have sent me alternate numbers, but have not stated a source---so 
can anyone direct me to a source for good contribution numbers of various 
constituents?  To the potential masher:  GO FOR IT!  Although, it was quite 
chaotic, it's not nearly as daunting as it sounds in print. Later,

Bones
====================================================================
laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

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Date:     Wed, 9 Nov 94 12:50:54 EST
From: Chris Barnhart <clbarnha at letterkenn-emh1.army.mil>
Subject:  Roller Mill,PH Meters, Weinstephan Yeast

Hi all,

First, for those interested, the roller mill project is almost
complete.  I'm still waiting for the rollers from the machine
shop.  Once I drop the rollers in and test it I'll post the
details.   

Second, Anyone have experience with digital PH meters like the
Checker (TM) or the like?  Sources?

Third, Just brewed a traditional wheat beer with NorthWestern
wheat extract and Wyeast Weinstephan yeast.  Boiled for 75
minutes.  Splashed the cool wort around a bit for aeration. 
Pitched a 500 ml starter begun 24 hours before from the swelled
yeast pack.  Fermentation took off within 18 hours.  Got worried
on day 2 when I noticed a horrible smell emanating from the
fermentation lock.  Smelled not quite vegetal, kind of uric acid
like (didn't wet my drawers, have a new baby, diapers and all
that), not buttery. The smell seemed to go away around day 8,
bottled on day 9. The nasty odor seems to have scrubbed out. 
Beer tasted fine, semi-clove taste, major banana esters.

Any others with similar experience?  Typical of Wyeast
Weinstephan?  What was that smell and the likely cause?

Private E-mail fine.  

Barny
clbarnha at letterkenn-emh1.army.mil


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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 10:06:07 PST
From: CGV1%PSE%SG at bangate.pge.com
Subject: CD ROM HBD?

So I guess the irony will be when I go to buy My CD ROM version of the HBD 
and it all amateur copyright law discussions......

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Date:         Wed, 9 Nov 94  13:55:43 EST
From: Greg Niznik <GENIZN01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      primary vs secondary

Graduate Student
Phone: 852-5756

Thanks to all who replied to my question regarding primary vs secondary
fermentation.

Most of the replies gave similar information: Using a secondary fermentation
is better because:

1) It get the beer off of the trub, dead yeast ect that will eventually
produce an off flavor in the beer

2) It helps clear the beer before bottling (sort of like racking wine)

3) It allows one to bottle at one's convenience

Thanks again
Greg Niznik


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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 12:21:53 MST
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: On/Off-line HBD Discussion

Dave Smucker asks that we carry on more conversations in the HBD, rather
than via email and I tend to agree with him.  Here's the trend I would like
to see, although I'm quite sure some others will disagree:

HBD Discussions:

Brew Sessions, i.e. techniques
Ingredients discussions, including sanitizers, etc.
Equipment discussions (my personal favorite)
Troubleshooting
AoB/AHA discussions
Club discussions that have general appeal (how to do Dr. Beer sessions, etc.)
Brewing article discussions, i.e. Zymurgy/BT
Mail order supplies, because they have a widespread audience
National Competitions, details left to email
Federal, State and local laws (including copyright, shipping, etc.) related
  to brewing; even the local stuff may have commonality with other places
Safety Issues, definitely
Commercial beers, especially if there is something to be learned from them
  by the homebrewer
Brewery tours/reviews
Beer/Brewing Festival Reviews

Things to take to email:

Local homebrew supply stores
Local brewery information requests (I have a not-too-out-of-date summary of
  CO breweries for anyone interested, BTW)
Local club information
Local contests
Major Flameage

If you detect a trend here, you are not alone.  I feel that local information
should remain local, and not hashed out over the net.  I'm *not* saying that
I don't ever want to see anything vaguely resembling a localized issue
discussed here.  I *do* think that a local discussion can be started on the
HBD and then taken off-line (note the words "take to email").  All interests
are served with this method, and most people will be happy with it.  Please
don't take this as anything but what it is intended to be:  my personal
preferences.  If I don't state what I like, I'm sure nobody else will do it
for me.  And yes, I feel discussing *this* issue on the HBD to be a very fair
use of the medium.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:49:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Minor correction


The other day the Coyote had mentioned Oliver D. Ennis in a post about 
tap supplies. They are no longer at the address mentioned (in Culver 
City) but have a new address and local phone #:

 Oliver D. Ennis
 9001 Oso Ave, Unit B
 Chatsworth, CA
 
(818) 701-9765

Of course, if you have the urge to visit Culuver City, we are just down 
the street from Ennis' old location <g>



Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
waltman at netcom.com




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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 94 15:20:08 EST
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: yeast culturing

Robert asked about yeast culturing. I just take a bottle of homebrew
which was made with the yeast I want, drink the beer, and pitch the dregs
(and about 2 oz of beer for good measure) into some wort. just like
starting a store bought liquid yeast. As long as the beer tastes good,
I figure the yeast is O.K. to culture again. Often people reccomend
that one only re-pitch a few times before replenishing your yeast source.
Quick. Simple. Effective. Cheap. Dont'cha just love brewing!
	Eamonn Mckernan
	eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca

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Date: Wed 9 Nov 94 12:38:01-PST
From: Cecila Strickland <CID at mathom.xkl.com>
Subject: Bass Ale

Hi,

There was a recent posting about a brew that
was a Bass clone.  I haven't had much luck
in replicating this recipe, and wonder if
it could be posted.

Also, thanks for the Liberty Ale recipe. Mine
is happily fermenting!

Cyd
- -------

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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 13:26:58 -0800
From: gtinseth at teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: The Hop Source

As many of you know, I've owned and operated the Hop Source for the last
two years. I started the Hop Source because there was a big need for a hop
dealer that took good care of hops (ie vac-sealed, barrier package,
sub-freezing storage). Since then a lot of people have joined me in this
quest--other hop dealers, hop brokers, and even homebrew shops. Call it
ego, but I think I have, in some small way, helped catalyze this paradigm
shift (buzzword alert;-)

Times change, and families grow--at least mine has. In order to spend more
time with my family I made the incredibly tough decision to sell the Hop
Source. I was too busy, and since the OR Dept of Ag rules for a home
business wouldn't let me hire a helper, I had to call it quits.

To cut to the chase, Mark Kellums of Just Hops in Mt Zion, IL, has bought
the Hop Source. Mark started Just Hops last March, and meets all of my
criteria for a responsible hop dealer. He uses the same packaging system
that I do and specializes in whole hops, especially hard to find imported
varieties. His retail, club, and wholesale pricing is very similar to mine.
If you want to contact Mark at Just Hops, his phone number is 217-864-4216;
his address is 335 N Main, Mt Zion, IL 62549.

I will continue to be an active participant on the HBD. The hop utilization
experiments are continuing (thanks Martin and Jim), I'll keep you posted. I
guess I should add a disclaimer. How's this: The Hop Source was my baby and
I'd love to see Mark do well. However, I don't have a stake in Just Hops,
I'm now just a happy customer and an occasional technical consultant
(unpaid).

Thanks for the bandwidth and the support over the last two years <sniff>

Glenn "Just Another Homebrewer" Tinseth




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1575, 11/10/94