FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Attenuation (Douglas R. Jones)
  Beer Stains ("Chris Cesar")
  Freezing Yeast (CRHammond)
  Review of Homebrew CDROM (Kaltenbach)
  mead, sparging, HSA (MicahM1269)
  Formulas? ("Robert W. Mech")
  Homebrewing (Alex David Wohlhueter)
  Wyeast California Lager Yeast (CLAY)
  Re: Master Judge uses coriander (STROUD)
  Narragansett Porter Recipe (Todd Anderson)
  Og (COX003)
  Yeast Transport Tip ("Manning Martin MP")
  Coriander (Pierre Jelenc)
  Alcohol content (Alan_Marshall)
  Reinh... coriander (Mark E. Lubben)
  Belgian Yeasts, Maudite and La Fin du Monde ("v.f. daveikis")
  hbd ("Mark J. Donnelly")
  Re: Coriander and the Secret Brewing Elite/Illuminati (Jeff Frane)
  Dixie Cup Results? ("CANNON_TOM")
  Coriander in wit beers (STROUD)
  Propane indoors ("Vandermey, John")
  acronyms (Noel Damon)
  oregano beer (Allan Rubinoff)
  40/60/70C Mash Schedule (Rob Reed)
  Pseudo-lager Yeast Summary ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Brewing Pub (JWHITE)
  Sanitization (Rich Larsen)
  coriander/cilantro - used carboys ("Joseph A. Lenzini")
  Abnormally Low OG? (Daniel S. Foster)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 19:32:16 CST
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Attenuation

When I racked a pseudo Pale Ale yesterday I took a gravity reading. It had
gone from 1.062 to 1.012. Great me thinks! But that started the machinery
running and I got to wondering. Just what exactly does this 50 point drop
REALLY mean? And besides having something to do with the alcohol level,
what does the FG have, if anything, to do with the final character of the
Ale?

Also in tasting this partial mash creation (racking to the secondary in
*MY* book requires a taste taste) I noticed it to be more bitter that I had
thought. SUDSW tells me there is only 6.5 IBU's, so the next question is
where could some additional bitterness come from? And will in mellow some
over the course of a stay in the secondary and bottle conditioning?

Specifics:
6.5# M&F light syrup
1.5# Pale Malt
0.5# Carapils
0.5# ???
0.5# ???

Hops in 3 additions:
1 oz. Lublin  at  boil + 15

0.75 oz. Hallertau  at  boil + 52
0.75 oz. Tettnanger  at  boil + 52

0.75 oz. Hallertau  at  boil + 57
0.75 oz. Tettnanger  at  boil + 57

Sorry about the memory losses....seems I am beginning to suffer from CRS!

TIA,
Doug
- -------------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of        |    Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space'  |    IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin        |    (214)301-1307
                           |    djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 14 Nov 1994 18:00:38 U
From: "Chris Cesar" <Chris_Cesar at qmgate.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Beer Stains

Mail*Link(r) SMTP               Beer Stains

Hi All,

About two years ago,  I spilled a glass of a nice amber pale ale on my living
room carpet (blue-gray).  At the time, I cleaned it up as best as I could,
using some type of carpet spotting shampoo.  The spill left a slight stain
that I figured would come out the next time I steam cleaned the carpet.  Well,
I rented a steam cleaner this weekend and guess what?  Stains still there. 
Any Suggestions?

Thanks

Chris Cesar
Chris_Cesar at qmgate.arc.nasa.gov


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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:05:06 -0500
From: CRHammond at aol.com
Subject: Freezing Yeast

I understand that yeast can be "propagated" and stored by mixing the slurry
from the primary fermenter with 10-20% glycerin and freezing.  Does anyone
have any experience with this?  Is a deep freeze too cold?  How long does the
yeast remain viable?  Is this similar to the Yeast Bank kit that Miller
mentions in The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing?

Thanks in advance, 
Reif Hammond

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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:43:24 -0500
From: Kaltenbach at aol.com
Subject: Review of Homebrew CDROM


I am submitting an unsolicited review of "The Beer Homebrewing Guide" CD-ROM 
that someone mentioned in a recent issue of the Homebrew Digest (#1569).  In 
short, my interest in the CD-ROM was to have a copy of all of the back 
issues of the Homebrew Digest available for browsing (without using up a lot 
of hard disk space).  For this purpose, the disk pretty useless.  Others may 
find this CD more useful, however, so to be fair I have summarized the 
contents of the disk in the following paragraphs.

Title:          The Beer Homebrewing Guide CD-ROM, August 1994 Version
Authors:        Fred Lloyd, Barry Lyon, & Monty Nelson
Cost:           $39.95 
Available:      Walnut Creek CD-ROM, Suite 260, 1547 Palos Verdes Mall,
                Walnut Creek, CA 94596  (Email:  info at cdrom.com)
Disk Contents:  see below

HOMEBREWING TUTORIAL -- A "slide show" tutorial in which the authors have 
    included many photographs of how to make your first batch of homebrew 
    (using extract, not all-grain).  There are roughly 120 photos detailing 
    various aspects of brewing.  The photos are of good quality in 
    general, though a few are out of focus or have poor contrast.  Each 
    photo has an attached paragraph or two that describes what is happening 
    at that particular stage in the brewing.  In general, this tutorial is 
    nice way to see what's involved with brewing your first batch of 
    homebrew.  It covers ingredients, equipment, boiling, fermenting, 
    bottling, kegging, and more.

HOMEBREW DIGEST -- The back issues of the Homebrew Digest from the Internet 
    are included in Windows Help-file format.  This means that all of the 
    issues are consolidated into a single file for each year.  There is an 
    index for each year which you can use to find topics of interest.  In 
    general, this is not a very useful format.  Here are my primary 
    complaints:  1) The limited index appears to have been constructed only 
    from what appeared in the "Subject:" line of each message in the digest.
 
    Many of the messages submitted to the HBD discuss multiple topics, but 
    often only one of the topics appears in the subject line.  This means 
    that there is a large amount of useful material in the digest that, 
    practically speaking, is inaccessible.  2) There is no way to browse 
    through issues BY SUBJECT to follow a particular thread of discussion.  
    Because the indexing was performed automatically, the topics MILL, 
    MILLS, and MILLING must be looked up separately.  3) The indices are 
    separate for each year, so you must look up the same topic(s) in each 
    year's index.  If you were buying this CD-ROM solely for the Homebrew 
    Digest (as I was), I would have to conclude that the CD was worthless.

    A more useful way to organize the information would be in a manner 
    similar to the Internet Homebrew Archives at sierra.stanford.edu, from 
    which this material was apparently obtained.  Then you could use one of 
    the standard file browsers or the THREAD program for true message-by-
    message topic searches.  Being the author of THREAD, I may be somewhat 
    biased towards the searching approach, but the Help-File format on the 
    CD just doesn't work for me.  Another thing that bothers me is that 
    there is plenty of room on the CD to include the original, unadultered 
    digest files as well as the current Help format files -- it just 
    wasn't done.  

CAT'S MEOW -- Both editions (1 & 2) of the CAT'S MEOW collection of homebrew 
    recipes have been included.  A recipe browser allows the user to select 
    recipes first by style, and then by the beer name.  This section is 
    fairly well organized, and the Help-File format seems to be a useful way 
    to browse through the recipes.

BEER LABELS -- The collection of labels and beer coasters that is present in 
    the Internet Homebrew Archives has been duplicated on this disk.  The 
    files are in JPEG format.  My JPEG file viewer was able to read most of 
    these files, but reported errors on some.  The errors could be the fault 
    of the viewer, I suppose.

MAIL ORDER CATALOGS -- Selected catalog pages from over 20 mail order 
    companies are reproduced on this disk.  Of the mail order companies 
    included, the ones that I am familiar with all have a good reputation.  
    I was surprised to see the Northeast Brewers Supply catalog, however, 
    because it was reported on the digest several months ago that they were 
    out of business.  

OTHER REFERENCES -- There are also other reference materials on the disk, 
    including a list of related books, addresses, glossary terms, etc.

Tom Kaltenbach
kaltenbach at aol.com


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:14:29 -0500
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: mead, sparging, HSA


>Subject: Conditioning with New Yeast

>I'm getting ready to bottle a sparkling mead that has been sitting in a
>carboy for about three months.  I'm planning to use a liquid champagne
>yeast to condition it.

IMHO a better sparkling mead can be produced by forced carbonation of the
mead in a
soda
keg. It is also advantagous to filter the mead for stability prior to
carbonation. In my
experience
bottle conditioning of meads is dicey at best. Have fun.
 
>Subject: When to stop sparging

>I was wondering what the general consensus is on how to tell when to stop
>the sparge.  I have seen reference to both measuring the PH and specific
>gravity, but I'm unsure of the exact procedure.
>Harry Covert

The old how much to sparge question. A good rule of thumb is to sparge your
brew length.
That is if you are making a five gallon batch then sparge with five gallons
and then stop.
Another guide is to sparge an amount equal to or at least not more than 1 1/2
times the
amount of water used in the mash. Being concerned with the ph of the runoff
 ( ph of the
mash is a different story) is usually in regard to the extraction of malt
tannins from the
mash. This, for the most, only occurs in cases of over sparging and/or
excessive sparge
temperatures ( over 185 F ). As to specific gravity many brewers stop at
1.010 because it is
a waste of effort to collect wort of lesser gravity. I find  that it works
well to use a fairly
constant volume water for a given brewlength, the amount used in the mash and
in the
sparge may vary as the grain bill changes but the over a volume of water
stays the same. In
this way it is easy to get consistent results without over sparging concerns.

I have noticed several  general questions about HSA. There are two articles
on this subject
in the '92 winter issue of Zymurgy. ( not an endorsement )

micah millspaw - brewer at large

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:59:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Formulas?

Well, ive decided to go ahead and make my windows based software (Read 
HBD: 15-sixty-something).  Anyhow im looking for anyone who might have 
"Calculator" formulas.  I.e. IBU, etc.  I currently already have the 
following formulas already working in the software...

IBU Calculation
Centigrade To Fahrenheit (and vice versa)
Kraeusening Calculation

Anyone with MORE formulas would be a great addition to the software.

Im also looking for specific ideas as to WHAT EXACTLY people would like to 
record in their personal brewing logs.  There is ALOT of things that take 
into account.  I have *CONSIDERED* the following things, along with the 
basic "Recipe" information.

Basic Recipe Information
	Date, Ferment Time, Bottle Date, Etc..
	Name
	The Recipe itself Including volume, boil time, hop info
		pitching temp, etc.
	Space for "Comments"

Areas Up For Discussion Pro/Con
	Estimated IBU
	Color Rating
	AHA Score (For people who have had it judged)
	Personal Score (For people who informaly juge their beer)
 
	Any other comments you may have would also be welcome.

In either case this software is going to be distributed as "Freeware" for 
Non-Comerical use.  Thus homebrewers can profit from this, while homebrew 
shops wont <grin>.  If anyone has any ideas/comments, please feel free to 
contact me.   I know when I originaly brought this idea up I had some 
repsonses from a few people who wanted to help, however I lost the email 
they sent :(.  If you are intrested in helping, please email me.

Thanks everyone!  With luck ill be as successful with this as I was the 
Frugal Brewers Guid To Beer Aids, which turned out to be a great 
success.  For those of you who didnt see it in rec.crafts brewing, its 
should also be available at Spencers Beer Page, since I did email him a 
copy when it was done. 

Hoppy Brewing Everyone!

Rob

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:19:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex David Wohlhueter <adw4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Homebrewing

   Can you please send me information about homebrewing?


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:26:36 -0500 (EST)
From: CLAY at prism.clemson.edu
Subject: Wyeast California Lager Yeast


I have a batch going at 60F with Wyeast's California Common Lager Yeast.  I 
can't recall the precise name or the number, but it's the high-temp lager
yeast.  Very very slow starting, but has been going and going and going for
a couple of weeks now.  Recipe was 8 pounds of Alexanders Pale extract with 
Cascade hops - my intent was to be able to discern the effects of this yeast,
without background noise from the other ingredients.  TIA.
Regards,
Cam Lay Clay
CLAY at CLUST1.CLEMSON.EDU
"...bright enough, but not likely to be a good long-term fit in the corporate
environment."  --DowElanco, Inc.  

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Re: Master Judge uses coriander

Master Judge Chuck Cox pointed out an interesting observation in yesterday's 
HBD:

>In order to fix my Oktoberfest, I made up a coriander tea and added it
>to the keg.  Amazingly, all the problems disappeared overnight!
>Unfortunately, I think I overcompensated; the Oktoberfest is so malty it
>tastes more like a Bock


Uh-oh, Chuck, now you've really gone and ruined it for all of the award-winning 
brewers!  I am quite convinced that the AHA's 1994 Ninkasi brewer, Michael 
Byers, has been using coriander as a secret ingredient in his winning beers.  
As proof, look at his two beers that won in this year's Nationals:

English Extra Special Bitter - 	OG-1.070  
Scottish Ale (70/) -		OG-1.086  

Clearly, coriander was used and turned the ESB into a strong ale and the 
Scottish 70/ into a Wee Heavy. This obviously parallels what happened to your
Oktoberfest; overzealous use of coriander turned the damn thing into a bock. 
Had Michael laid off the coriander, he no doubt would have brewed beers that
would have been more to style - yet the concomitant reduction of maltiness in
the beers would have probably cost him First place in these categories.  What's
a winning brewer to do? 

Boy, it's going to get really hard to win anything in the Nationals now that 
everyone knows about coriander.  Thanks a lot Chuck  :-(.  Oh, well, at least 
you didn't mention the Beer Machine.

Steve

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Date:         Tue, 15 Nov 94 09:24:28 EST
From: Todd Anderson <TAND1698 at URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject:      Narragansett Porter Recipe

Greetings:

I've got a housemate who says his favorite porter of all time was by the now
defunct Narragansett Brewery from over here in little ol' Rhode Island.
Apparently, the Narragansett Brewery went out of business either in the late
`70's or early `80's.  (Yes, I believe Stroh's purchased the rights to the
name and still distribute it, yet from what I understand from talking to the
native Rhode Islanders, it does not match the taste).  Anyway, would anyone
out there in homebrew land happen to have a recipe that comes close?  It would
be greatly appreciated.

Speaking of Rhode Island, a couple of great announcements!!

The Trinity Brewing Company of Providence is set to open in about a week.  It
will be the second brewpub in the city joining the successful Union Station
Brewery.  From what I understand, this will be a serious beer drinker's brew-
pub as opposed to the Union Station which definitely has a Yuppie character
to it and has an extensive menu.

Second, a new  brewpub is set to open in Middletown, R.I., just up the street
from downtown Newport.  Don't know when it's slated to open, yet it will be a
great addition to the great pubs in the Newport area.

Take Care!
Happy Brewing.

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 9:47:37 -0500 (EST)
From: COX003 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU
Subject: Og

Hello all
Here is a question that stems from my pure stupidity!  Hopefully someone
can answer it.  I brewed a 15 gallon batch of a lager over the weekend.
The wort was a very concentred one.  It was four gallons.  Just for kicks
I took a gravity reading of it, after cooling it and such. the gravity read
1.152. So heres where the stupidity comes in,  I pitched the yeast and the
beer had begun to ferment when I relized that i had forgotten to take an
gravity reading of the 15 gallon volume. So how do you figure out what the
o.g is of this 15 gallons, I know there has to be a way because its just
a dilution. Any help any of you chemists out there could provide would be
great!!!!
many thanks
aaron   (cox003 at wcsub.ctstateu.edu)

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Date: 15 Nov 1994 10:00:16 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Yeast Transport Tip

A tip for transporting yeast in dried form: Band-Aids.  This is a spin-off
from the previously published info (see Yeast FAQ) regarding transport of
yeast on sterile filter paper, which most of us don't have.  

On a recent trip to the UK, I was offered a sample of yeast from a cask
conditioned ale.  Unfortunately, I had nothing to carry it in.  The manager
of the pub offered to sterilize a Grolsch bottle for me, but since it would
be two weeks before I would return home, and I had doubts about an unsealed
bottle of an unknown liquid passing customs, I declined. 

Instead, I suggested that a  band-aid could be used to carry a sample.  The
first-aid kit at the pub yielded a band-aid, and as luck would have it, a
sterile, disposable pipette was also found. I snipped the end from the sleeve
and slid the band-aid out. The gauze pad was exposed (without touching it or
removing the peel-off tabs which cover the adhesive) by bending the adhesive
tabs back, and a few drops of cloudy beer were placed on the pad using the
disposable pipette. The band-aid was then re-folded and slipped back into its
sleeve, which was then resealed with transparent tape.

When I returned home, I opened the sleeve and pulled the gauze pad from the
plastic strip with sterilized tweezers and placed it in a culture tube with 5
ml of sterile wort.  Unfortunately, there were a lot of bacteria and very
little yeast present.  Isolating the yeast would have required a good bit of
work, so I dumped it.  The trick was not completely successful in this
instance, but I think the idea is a good one, as band-aids are sterile and
readily available anywhere in the world.  

Martin Manning


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:20:25 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Coriander

In reply to Btalk at aol.com (Bob Talkiewicz), dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD
DWELLE), and Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz) in HBD 1579


There is no such thing as "cilantro" in English: it is simply the Spanish 
name of coriander. As a spice, coriander is used for its leaves as well 
as its seed, but in brewing, it is the seeds that concern us. They are 
tiny spheres, about 1mm in diameter, i.e. half the size of a barleycorn, 
and can be readily bought by the pound for a couple of dollars at any 
Indian grocery or spice shop.

While the fresh leaves have a rather pungent, and to many objectionable,
smell that reminds of crushed woodlice or bedbugs ("coriander" comes from 
a Greek word meaning "insect"), the seeds have a sweet, aromatic and 
orangey flavor.

Like all "brown" spices, coriander seeds benefit greatly from being
toasted briefly just before use. I recommend to grind the seeds and toast
them in a small frying pan, and to add them to the beer in the secondary 
for maximum effect. The toasting has the advantage of providing 
on-the-fly sanitation.

How much? It depends on the desired effect. I made one 5-gallon batch that
used 2 oz of crushed and toasted coriander in the secondary as the
flavoring agent (there was a little bittering hops as well), and that
seems to be about as high as one can go. The beer started out too strongly
flavored, mellowed nicely after a few weeks, stayed there for about 3
months, then the flavor started to fade. Now, at 9 months, there is
essentially no coriander aroma left, although there still is plenty of
that "full" flavor.

At the lower end, 1/3 to 1/2 oz is probably the lowest effective amount. 
There will be little or no aroma after a short aging, but just like MSG, 
the flavor enhancement will act in the background.

As far as flatulence goes, coriander is a carminative, i.e. it _causes_
the expulsion of intestinal gas. It prevents gas pains, not gas. 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:43:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan_Marshall <AK200032 at Sol.YorkU.CA>
Subject: Alcohol content

Chris Cesar <Chris_Cesar at qmgate.arc.nasa.gov> writes:

<snip>

cc> I recently was checking out the sierra archives, and came across a
cc> beer-calories FAQ, that listed the alcohol content of about 200 beers.
cc> Boy was I surprised.  According to this FAQ,  the alcohol content of
cc> Budweiser was 4.6%, Miller Highlife  had 4.8%, and Coors had 4.9%. 
cc> The numbers on import brews was about what I expected (mostly mid 4s
cc> to low 5s).  I could not determine if the assay was by weight or by
cc> volume, but unless I goofed, I reasoned that if the assay was by
cc> weight, the percent by volume would be even higher. 

This FAQ is maintained by Keith Gumbinger (binger at hsh.com).  These are 
alcohol by *volume* numbers.

cc> I guess you could say I was surprised that these tasteless, bodyless
cc> beers had such high alcohol levels.  I had mistakenly assumed that my
cc> homebrews were, for the most part, higher in alcohol, as well flavor. 

There are lots of tasteless, bodyless, higher-than average alcohol
beers.  Dry beers have alcohol levels that are relatively high for
their OG as the yeasts used ferment the sugars more completely.  The
use of adjuncts like corn and sugar will also result in alcohol with
the interference :-) of body.  Most well-known "industrial beers are
using between 20 and 40% adjuncts.  Cheap, discount brands are
reputedly using as much as 60% adjuncts.  The "ice" beer craze has
also produced many high alcohol beers with lttle taste or body.  You 
can also filter the heck out of it to remove body and flavour, 
something that has reputedly been done to produce some beverage we're 
not allowed to mention here that starts with a "Z" and rhymes with the 
Peruvian capital, Lima.

<snip>

cc> Now, I know a lot of people out there are saying "who cares about that
cc> swill the masses drink?", but I am curious.  Is this study faulty? 
cc> Or, do the major American breweries intentionally formulate their
cc> beers with large amounts of corn/rice to limit the body and flavor,
cc> but keep up the alcohol?  A corollary to that question is "How do you
cc> brew a beer with almost 5% alcohol using only malted barley, hops,
cc> water, and yeast while still getting a beer with no body or malt
cc> flavor?" 

The answer to the first question is "Yes, they formuate their beers
with large amounts of corn/rice but not to limit the body and flavor.  
They do this to to keep costs low and they have marketing studies to 
show that the average North American beer drinker does give a flying 
fatoo about full body and taste -- they simply want to get a buzz on.
As long as it doesn't taste rancid, sweet or too bitter, the marketing 
weenies can sell it."

I shall leave your second question to the brewers in this forum who 
are all better qualified to answer it.

Alan Marshall (ak200032 at so.yorku.ca)

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:07:13 -0500
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: Reinh... coriander

Various recent posts have suggested using coriander in Vienna/Oktoberfests.
Some even suggest it may have assisted winners in these categories.  =^O

I wonder which section of the new E.C. Reinheistgebot that appeared in:
barley malt(naw), hops(really truely it's hops officer), yeast(too green),
or water(to acidify the sparge)?

But Allen Ford finally clarified the issue with his post:
> Additionally, he (Carl Saxer in recent Zymurgy) says that the little seeds 
> help reduce chill haze due to their fining properties.

Oh, I SEE!  It is a clarifying/fining agent that meets the rein criteria
to "work mechanically or by absorbing".  So that clarifying must be why 
those cloudy wit beers taste so good!  ;^)

My wife will approve of the reduced flatulence, but I don't know
what she will think about the sex drive part.  She thought the red
convertible meant I was finally getting past that.

Prost,
Mark Lubben (yes I know there's a town in Germany)
=== No copyright if included as part of "Hoppy Brewing" Digest ===


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:13:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "v.f. daveikis" <vdaveiki at julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Belgian Yeasts, Maudite and La Fin du Monde

Brewers;
  Has anyone had any success with culturing yeast sediment from Belgian 
beers purchased from the liquor store? I've gotten a hold of some 
wonderful lambic, kreik and framboisen beers and I would like to be able 
to use their yeasts in my own versions ( however pale by comparison they 
may be).
  On another note, someone was talking about Maudite, the Quebec strong 
beer.  If you want an even better beer, try La Fin du Monde ( the end of 
the world), produced by the same company.  Almost  white in colour, this 
9% brew is advertised as being brewed and aged "on lees" and is much more 
tasty IMHO (oh boy, my first acronym) than Maudite.  Brewing it at home 
with their yeasts is a great thing to aspire to do as a case of the stuff 
is over $60 Cdn!!  If anybody knows of a home-type recipe for either 
beer, please share it with the rest of us.
     Thanks for your time
           Victor Daveikis, London Ontario 

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Date: 15 Nov 94 10:39:00 EDT
From: "Mark J. Donnelly" <donnelly at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us>
Subject: hbd

Please enter a subscription for me. Thanks


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:32:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Coriander and the Secret Brewing Elite/Illuminati

Chuck Cox wrote;

> I know that coriander has long been the secret weapon of a handful of
> top brewers, but that article in Zymurgy has really ruined it for the
> brewing elite.
> 


Chuck, will you *please* take pity on some of these new brewers and let
them in on the joke!?  Irony is not doing it!

- --Jeff


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:42:06 EST
From: "CANNON_TOM" <CANNON_TOM at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Dixie Cup Results?

          I am very interested in the results of the '94 Dixie Cup
          (particularly the Continental Light Category).  Would anyone
          with this information please forward to me (private E-Mail)
          or post (if you think a critcal mass would be interested).

          Tom Cannon
          Fairfax VA


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:47:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Coriander in wit beers

In HBD 1579, Spencer Thomas reports on the great time he had at the SOP 
conference (I'm jealous!).  Talking about wit biers, he said:

>* Saturday afternoon tasting of Celis beers, led by Pierre Celis.  He
>let loose a few more "secrets" about the White and the Grand Cru.
>  He now says that the ONLY spices in the White are Curacao and
>  *Sweet* (new info!) orange peel, and Coriander (but no amounts, of
>  course).  When asked about the lactobacillus pitching step, he first
>  said "I will not lie to you," and then something about "30 years of
>  experience."


Back in 1992 , a group of Boston and Austin-ites visited the just-opened Celis
brewery in Austin.  Several members of the group had met Pierre Celis at
Hoegaarden a few years before and again in 1991 when we visited the
still-under-construction Celis brewery in Austin, and I believe that there was
an openness about the brewing process that one would be hard-pressed to find
today. We were taken on a tour by Greg Springer and were told that the
spices in Celis White are used as follows: 

>The coriander and orange peel are pulverized in a hammer mill and are
>added for the last 15 minutes of the boil.  They are added at an amount
>equivalent to 2 grams of coriander and 2.1 grams of orange peel per 5
>gallon batch (we were actually told the amount in kg/hectoliter and I
>converted it to gm/gallon). 

I realize that this is significantly less (by a factor of 10!) than the
amount that Phil Seitz has recommended (1 - 1.5 gm/liter, or 1 ounce/5
gallon) in his How-to-Brew Belgian ale series, but Phil is an admitted
coriander lover.  On the otherhand, Phil is recommending a 5 minute or less
boil and this may account for the difference in added amount. 

I do not think that Celis White has a strong coriander character - I find 
it to be a very subtle one.  Hence I believe that the numbers that Greg 
quoted for coriander usage were probably in the ballpark.  I realize that
spicing level is a very personal thing, yet I do think that the numbers being
quoted in the homebrewing community for coriander usage are on the high
side. I *don't* want judges at homebrew competitions to knock witbiers for 
'not enough coriander', as I have seen at a recent competition.


Regarding the lactobacillus step, we were told that the beer is fermented
with the wit yeast in the high 60's F for 7-10 days, then transferred to a
secondary and inocculated with a strain of lactobacillus which is allowed
to work until the pH drops to about 4.4.  The beer is then
pasteurized, then primed and re-yeasted.  I believe that the lacto strain
that Celis uses is proprietary and is closely guarded, just as some yeast
strains are guarded by some breweries. 

Cheers,
Steve


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:03:00 PST
From: "Vandermey, John" <JAVANDER at p06.dasd.honeywell.com>
Subject: Propane indoors


There's one more reason NOT to use propane indoors, that I haven't seen 
posted yet.  If an accident happens, and the tank gets hot, it will explode. 
 This has happened in restaurant banquet rooms before, which is why they are 
not allowed to use bottled gasses indoors anymore.  Many people have died 
because of this.

This reminds me of a thread on here a while back about using O2 to oxygenate 
wort.  Pure oxygen environments are very hazardous due to the fact that the 
combustability of everything in and around them increases dramatically. 
 High concentrations of O2 in your shirt will allow it to ignite with an 
invisible static spark or light friction, for instance (I knew someone that 
used an O2 line to blow dust off his uniform once.  He was badly burned). 
 And remember the Apollo mission that burned up on the launch pad because 
they were using a pure O2 environment in the command module.

In summary, these are both dangerous practices.  I would not recommend 
either one.

John  (javander at p06.dasd.honeywell.com)

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:18:18 MST
From: Noel Damon <noel at col.hp.com>
Subject: acronyms
Full-Name: Noel Damon

Nit for the day:  The recent thread on acronmyms points
up the high incidence of the Webster challenged ;-)
Reference to any dictionary will show: acronym...a WORD
formed from the first letters or syllables of the 
successive parts of a compound term.  Thus it would be
hard to consider an abbreviation such as DMS an acronym.
As a test, pronounce it if you can! (Asbestos suits on!)
- --
email address noel at col.hp.com 
Noel Damon 5070 Centennial Dr. 
Colorado Springs, CO 80919

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 13:05:35 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: oregano beer

In HBD #1578, "Jeffrey W. Van Deusen" <VANDEUSEN001 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>
asks:

>Has anyone ever used oregano successfully in a brew before?

I've tried one experiment with oregano, and it was reasonably successful.

Rather than using the oregano in the boil, though, I just put one sprig
(about 4 or 5 inches long) of fresh oregano at bottling time into a few
bottles of a pale ale I had brewed.  To make sure the oregano was
sterile, I first soaked it in vodka.  

After bottling, the bottles were left to condition for about a month, at
which point I brought them to a pizza party.

The results were pretty good, and everybody seemed to like it.  (It
went well with pizza.)  But the oregano flavor was nearly overwhelming. 
I learned a couple things, though:

 - Putting the oregano in the finished beer will certainly result in
  oregano flavor.  This approach is preferable to including the oregano
  in the boil, because it enables you to experiment with different
  quantities, and doesn't require you to make a full batch of oregano
  beer.  If you don't like the ideas of oregano floating in your
  bottles, you could add it to the fermenter (like dry hops) during
  secondary fermentation.

 - One sprig per 12 oz. bottle is way too much!

By the way, there is a rather obscure Italian style of beer called Birra
Perfetta.  I believe Pike Place brews one occasionally, though I've
never tried theirs.

Allan Rubinoff
rubinoff at bbn.com

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:04:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: 40/60/70C Mash Schedule

  pacasey at lexmark.com (Patrick Casey) writes:
 
> Subject: Fix's 40/60/70 mash schedule 
> 
> I'd like to try this mash schedule, but would like to know if this
> leads to a more dextrinous, sweeter beer, or a more highly
> fermentable, drier beer. 

The rest at 60C/140F is at or near the peak of beta-amylase
activity depending on who you read, i.e. this rest increases
the fermentability by enzymatically creating more maltose 
than dextrins.

 The final rest at 70C tells me it'll be
> dextrinous, but perhaps the 60C rest combined with the relative
> thinnness of the mash (I think he calls for about 1.5 quarts water per
> lb. grain by the time you're at the 40C rest), will cause it to be
> highly fermentable...

The intent of the 60/70C mash is to affect maltose/dextrin balance by
manipulating the proportion of the time the mash is at 60C vs. 70C.
If you want to increase fermentability, perform a longer 60C rest: if
you want to increase dextrin content, decrease length of the 60C
rest and increase the 70C rest to assure complete conversion.

I interpret the intent of Dr. Fix's  mash schedule to always
use these temperatures for malts not requiring a 122F/50F protein
rest and adjust the time at 60C/140F vs. 70C/158F to adjust
the maltose/dextrin ratio.

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:16:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Pseudo-lager Yeast Summary

Hi everyone,

In case anyone is interested, here is a summary of responses to my request 
for Wyeast lager strains that work well in the lower end of the ale 
temperature range at about 60-65F.  They appear in order of most often 
recommended.  I tried to personally thank anyone who responded, so names have 
been omitted.

CALIFORNIA COMMON LAGER (2112):

	--described by one brewer who quoted "malty with a sweet, woody flavor
	  and subtle fruitiness, medium attenuation and high flocculation"
	--rated 64-66 F
	--one person reported good results at 60 F
	--another brewer warned of "lots of esters and strong phenolics" if
	  used above 60 F and recommended fermentation at 55 F

AMERICAN ALE (1056):
	
	--obviously not a lager, but makes a good "pseudo-lager"
	--clean, lager-like
	--slow at 60 F

AMERICAN LAGER (????):

	--one brewer mentioned 4 successful batches with this variety
	  in the 60-65 F range for primary and secondary
	--no other specifics noted

KOLSCH (2565?):

	--again good for pseudo-lagers
	--clean with slight notes of sulfur

BAVARIAN (????):

	--one brewer reports success at 60 F


Hope this helps out any other prospective American-style pseudo-lager/ale 
brewers.  Sorry to be so vague in some cases, but I was simply relaying the 
info I received and have no personal experience with any of these to refute or 
verify claims.  Having said my little disclaimer, I will depart.  BREW ON!

Bones
=====================
laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 14:37:09 EST
From: JWHITE at octrf.on.ca
Subject: Brewing Pub


     
     I am interested in setting up a Brewing Pub in Northern Ontario.  I 
     was wondering if anyone knew the steps I should follow or possibly a 
     company in which I can talk to.  Any and every bit of information 
     would be appreciated.
     
     
     Please send information directly to
     
     jwhite at octrf.on.ca
     
     Thanks and Cheers to everyone
     
     Jason J White
     Epidemiology Research Unit
     Northeastern Ontario Regional Cancer Centre

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:45:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
Subject: Sanitization

Howdy HBDers!

It seems that there has been a lot of discussion about the "best" 
alternative to using bleach for sanitizing.

One household chemical that I use regularly that alwyas seems to be over 
looked is Hydrogen Peroxide.

I like HP (not a plug for Hewlett-Packard even though that is the system 
I use at work.. but I digress) fo the fact that it has no smell, breaks 
down into water and oxygen, both beneficial to young ferments, and will 
not stain.
 
The only downside is you should ware rubber gloves to minimize exposure 
to your skin.  I have found that repeated exposure can leach out enough 
oils from your skin that it will start to crack and split.  Quite painful 
when it is on your finger tips.

I have heard some concerns about the consumption of H2O2, but I always 
give a quick rinse with clean water, and what is left I'm sure is broken 
down as it is quite unstable.

The standard usable concentration is 1% solution, but I use the 3% 
straight out of the bottle for simplicity.  Also... more POWER!

Simply get everything wet, leave contact to about 5 minutes, then rinse 
lightly.

********

On a side note but related.

I recall from my studies, the use of microwaves for pasturization of 
beer.  This process was discarded as it ruined the flavor of the beer 
itself, but my question is this:  Do micorwaves do a good job of 
sterilization?  Can a home Microwave oven output enough power?  What of 
exposure time?  Is there someone out there that can answer this?

I have been "nuking" my bottles in the MW with 1 inch of water in the 
bottom of the bottle for 8 minutes on high.  I have never experienced an 
infection related to the bottle.

I am thinking that this could be a good method of creating culture media 
and sterile wort for starters.  One thing is for sure, you get a pretty 
good hot break from dry extract using the MW oven in as littel as 10 minutes.


=> Rich  (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org)
_______________________________________________________________________
(c) Rich Larsen, 1994 * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
    "I never drink... wine"  Bela Lugosi as Dracula
_______________________________________________________________________


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:53:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph A. Lenzini" <jlenzini at mail.more.net>
Subject: coriander/cilantro - used carboys

I've been following the current thread concerning coriander in beer.  
Although, I've never tried using it, I've been tempted since reading 
about it in Zymurgy.  I like using it as a spice on food and have grown 
my own.  I also like cilantro (the leaves of the coriander plant - or is 
coriander the seeds of the cilantro plant) and was wondering if anybody 
tried using that in their homebrew.

Joe L. - St. Mary's Brewery



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Date: 15 Nov 94 15:01:18 EST
From: Daniel.S.Foster at Dartmouth.EDU (Daniel S. Foster)
Subject: Abnormally Low OG?

We brewed a double batch of Mountmellick Irish Stout (extract) last night. 
Both batches used identical ingredients and procedure.  Starting gravity for
the first batch: 1.026.  For the second: 1.042.  I forgot to measure the
gravity of the first batch until 45 minutes after we pitched yeast.  Is that
responsible for such a low OG, or did something else go horribly wrong?
Also, any suggestions on how to get a #9.5 stopper out of the inside of a
carboy full of beer?

Dan Foster
dsf at dartmouth.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1580, 11/16/94