FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  PET bottles, sparging end point, swollen extract cans, very fresh extract (Nancy.Renner)
  15.5 gallon SS kegs (Dan_Imperato)
  coriander/cilantro - used carboys ("Joseph A. Lenzini")
  need contact for King Cooker (BTEditor)
  starters for lagers (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  bottling tip (JULIO CANSECO)
  Alcohol & Body (fwd) (Craig Mcpherson)
  Buffalo Brewing Company ("Charles S. Jackson")
  RE: Swill alcohol levels.  Adjuncts, adjuncts, adjuncts (uswlsrap)
  cancel (ZZZZZR)
  sanitization, yeast culturing/freezing ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  oregano clarification (Allan Rubinoff)
  Yeast Storage ("Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295")
  1-800 brew catalogs (James A Lindberg)
  Brewpub Location (Jeff Stampes)
  Re: Sanitization (Rich Larsen)
  Coriander, again. (Btalk)
  OG algebra, Celis White, low OG (Bill Szymczak)
  cancel homebrew (dean)
  Dixie Cup results... (Andrew Patrick)
  Re: Coriander in witbiers (bickham)
  Lots of Hops / American IPA / Acronyms (Barry Nisly)
  Low pH Barley Wine (Curiouser and curiouser...)
  RE:pure O2 environments (Jim Busch)
  Coriander (CliffR3500)
  Re: Freezing yeast (Dan Sherman)
  Clearing versus clarity (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 15:20:14 EST
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: PET bottles, sparging end point, swollen extract cans, very fresh extract

(From *Jeff* Renner) 
 
About PET (plastic) bottles.  The local homebrew shop thinks these are the 
greatest thing since sliced bread.  They sell 16 oz (or maybe 0.5l?) brown 
screw cap ones for $10/24 (+$0.79 for caps).  The manager has abused these 
by way overpriming and all he got was a swollen bottle, not a bomb.  He even 
boiled one.  He just got a 4 oz. bottle!  He likes them because they're 
light, unbreakable and cheap.  The local fraternities are prohibited (by 
insurance?) from having glass at parties, so I'm thinking of brewing up 
something with my son so they can be exposed to something better than 
megaswill lite.  Of course, since some of his brothers seem merely to want 
to be able to puke for less than $4, this may be casting pearls (or perles) 
before swine. 
*** 
Harry Covert wonders when to stop sparging.  Someone (forgot who) posted a 
few weeks ago to stop when you get a perceptible color change.  That's a 
little early!  I go to 1.006-8 or so as long as my pH stays below 6, which 
it always has, so that I don't even check it anymore.  I do taste these late 
runnings, however, just to make sure they don't taste astringent.  Just 
watch your water chemistry - low bicarbonates and high enough Ca for pale 
malts, and enough bicarbonates for dark malts.  I'm lucky.  I can boil my 
bicarbonate water and add back CaCl2 (~1/2 tsp./5 gallons of water, Al) or 
CaSO4 for pale lagers or ales, and just use the water as is for dark beers.  
I'm sure I could use boiled and decanted water for Pilsners with a long acid 
rest, but I haven't. 
*** 
On the Judge Net Digest, there has been a brief discussion on "extract 
tang," which I suggested might come from old cans of extract in which there 
has been slow biological activity.  I have tasted off flavors, especially in 
swollen cans, and, years back, in extract that was bulk packaged in plastic 
1/2 gallon jugs.  This prompted BrewerLee to repeat what was posted here 
some months back, that cans can swell from crystallization of the sugars.  
That may be, but I have certainly seen it with the production of gas and off 
flavors in extracts that were creamy smooth, i.e., no crystals.  I have a 
few cans of old Premier in the basement that are quite swollen.  (Someone 
got them from a warehouse in Detroit where they were being thrown out and 
brought a couple of cases to our beer club when I hosted the meeting, and 
these were left).  The last one I opened was uncrystalized but gassy and had 
a sour, cooked cabbage flavor.  It isn't fit to use even in dark, sour rye 
bread. 
*** 
This brings up something that I hope isn't seen as commercial.  I just 
opened a can of Mahogany Coast pale extract that really smelled like fresh, 
malty wort!  I can't claim to be completely uninvolved since the owner of 
G.W.Kent is a friend, (this is a private label of theirs), but that is my 
only connection.  It seems that it is selling so fast that they can't keep 
it in stock.  They have brought in two shipments since the brand's 
introduction (this summer?) and they had to wait for it to be produced 
before it was shipped, hence its freshness.  Of course, there is no 
guarantee that it will be fresh down the pipeline. 
*** 
DonBrew says: 
 
>I found with my Corona that the solution is to hold the bottle tightly 
>with my left hand and actuate the lever with my right hand <snip> 
 
I've been wondering what to do with my old Corona since I switched to a Malt 
Mill! ;-) 
*** 
Thanks to all who have been signing with their locations.  I've gotten 
several private email messages agreeing that this is useful.  It looks like 
a trend.  Jim Doyle details his location all the way out to "The Eye of 
God," but no city!  The "uci" in his address suggests Irvine.  Right? 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, MI c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date:           Tue, 15 Nov 94 15:29 EST
From: Dan_Imperato at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        15.5 gallon SS kegs

Hi all,
   I am looking to acquire a few 15.5 gallon SS kegs for my home brewery
system. Does anyone know where these can be bought inexpensively? I
don't want to go the deposit route. Thanks in advance.

Dan

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:53:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph A. Lenzini" <jlenzini at mail.more.net>
Subject: coriander/cilantro - used carboys

I've been following the current thread concerning coriander in beer.  
Although, I've never tried using it, I've been tempted since reading 
about it in Zymurgy.  I like using it as a spice on food and have grown 
my own.  I also like cilantro (the leaves of the coriander plant - or is 
coriander the seeds of the cilantro plant) and was wondering if anybody 
tried using that in their homebrew.

Joe L. - St. Mary's Brewery



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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 17:18:50 -0500
From: BTEditor at aol.com
Subject: need contact for King Cooker

One of our readers wants to get in touch with Metal Fusion Inc.,
manufacturers of the King Cooker.  Anyone know where they are located or have
a phone number?  Please reply directly by e-mail:

bteditor at aol.com

TIA, stephen mallery

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Date: 15 Nov 94 22:49:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: starters for lagers

John writes:
>I am currently fermenting a Graf-style Vienna from Doc Fix's book and I used
>Wyeast Bohemian lager. I made up a one quart yeast starter (2 1pt additions)
>and did it at room temp over about 4 days. (This is my first ever lager.)
>
>My question is: 
>1a. Should I have made that yeast starter at my Fermenting Temperature of 48F
>instead of 68F?  

No.  Making a starter is all about yeast growth, whereas fermentation is
another beast altogether.  Starters for both ale and lager should be made at
room temperature (around 70-75F).

>1b. Do the yeast mutate themselves to the higher temperature conditions of the
>starter? 

Mutation should not be any more of a problem at 70F than at lower temperatures.
I would be concerned about REALLY high temps, say, in the high 90's.

>1c. Will my yeast go thru temp shock or will they be innured to that because
>they have supposedly undergone post-krausen hibernation?

You'll likely have temperature shock if you toss your 70F starter into
50F wort.  Ideally, you would like to slowly lower the temperature of your
starter down to 50F-55F when it begins to complete it's fermentation.  Then
you can pitch into 50-55F wort without temperature shock.  Another method
(which can give you some unwanted fruitiness) is to pitch your 70F starter
into 70F wort, wait for fermentation signs and then slowly cool your fermentor
down to 50-55F.  You do want to wait till post-kraeusen to pitch because this
is the time at which the yeast have the highest level of glycogen stored up.

Incidentally, 1 quart is slightly on the low side for a lager -- ideally,
for a "normal" gravity lager (12P (1.048), if I'm not mistaken) you want to
pitch 2 liters of starter for a 5 gallon batch (you can pour off much of the
spent starter wort).  For higher gravities, you want to increase pitching
rate.  There is a formula, but I don't recall if it was in Noonan or Hough.

Al.

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Date:         Tue, 15 Nov 94 15:58:37 EST
From: JULIO CANSECO <JCANSECO at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      bottling tip

Fellow homebrewers:
As a new homebrewer I have enjoyed the amount of information available in
the HBD. I have shared some of it with my fellow club members, most of us
newbies. Here's my $0.02 worth in return. At our last meeting someone
showed us that if you use 1 1/2 or 2 inches of plastic pipe when bottling
instead of the most typical 3 feet and attach it to the spigot and then
secure your bottling wand to it ( the one with a spring valve ) you end up
with a stationary bottling wand that's hands free. This allows you to
manipulate your bottles more easily all by yourself. I am sure this no news
to more experienced brewers but may be of some use to other newbies.

Julio Canseco  jcanseco at uga.cc.uga.edu

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:23:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Craig Mcpherson <craigm at helios.cae.ca>
Subject: Alcohol & Body (fwd)



- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:03:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Craig Mcpherson <craigm at helios.cae.ca>
To: Chris_Cesar at qmgate.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: Alcohol & Body


The following reply was sent mailed to Chris_Cesar in response to a post 
in Homebrew Digest openly wondering how it is that his beers come in 
just under 5% and yet are full in body, while Bud comes in around the 
same and is lacking in substance.

I think the answer lies in "heavy gravity" brewing.

High grav brewing is carried out by most of the major North American 
breweries in order to maintain both a "consistent" product and keep costs 
under control. Note I said "consistent" and not "good".

For example, I live in the great northern tundra of Canada (yeah yeah, I 
have to fight off eskimos on the way to work each day). Anyhow here 
Molson's brews a product called XXX (triple ex) at 7.3%, this in turn 
gets watered down (literally) to form Molson Export Ale at 5%, and yet 
again to make their light beer (Canadian lite comes in at something like 
4%). Brewing this way doesn't have to yield crap beer. In fact many 
microbreweries and some quality European ones do this as well. They also 
do some "tweaking" of the product and its flavoring as well along the way.

One local micro here (in Quebec) bottles a most wicked wheat beer called 
"La Fin de Monde" (the end of the world) which is much like a dense Celis 
white from Texas - in fact Pierre Celis gave them the recipe. This beer 
clocks in at 9%, and they also "cut" it with sterile water and perhaps 
add some spices to create their Blanche de Chambly line of wheat beer at 
5%, almost identical to the Celis white. This beer talk is all incredibly 
regionalin nature. No doubt the same is carried out by the majors and 
minors where others live.


craigm at helios.cae.ca




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Date:     Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:32:10 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  Buffalo Brewing Company

CAUTION:  THIS POST CONTAINS CONTENT NOT RELATED TO BREWING!

my fellow brewers,

     As the recipient of a gift subscription to Beer Across America (obviously 
no affiliation) I get teh opportunity to sample a nice selection of micro's.  
Last month I received a six'er of bier labeled: 

                          OKTOBERFEST
                   German Styled Harvest Beer

from teh Buffalo Brewing Company in Lackawanna, NY.  It is bottled conditioned 
as evidenced by the scant dregs.  The label gives no hint of the ingredients.  
Now I lived in Germany for over 8 years and drank, and drank, and drank beer.  
While I am not a fan of weizen, esp hefeweizen, I could stomach the 
krystalweizen, but I don't think I ever tasted a "harvest beer".  This stuff is
sour and not at all palatable.  Is this potentially infected or is it supposed 
to be sour?  Anybody want it?  Four bottles left.  E-mail seems most appropiate
unless some of the masters think it deserves public discussion.

Steve
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                            The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 00:03:05 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: RE: Swill alcohol levels.  Adjuncts, adjuncts, adjuncts          

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: RE: Swill alcohol levels.  Adjuncts, adjuncts, adjuncts

Subject says it.

You know those ads that say "More of what you want, less of what you
don't"? Answer to #1: alcohol.  Answer to #2: flavour, body, hops.

I've done a 1.024 beer that had more flavour than Buttwipers/Miller/DogStyle
et cetera. But, of course, the swill factories would never be able to sell a
beer with 2-2.5% alcohol. That's why they proudly use the finest corn and/or
rice. If you use something that ferments almost completely, you get the extra
alcohol without having to worry about adding any of that nasty beer flavour.

Some people ask me why I pay $6/sixpack for beer. I tell them it depends what
you want, and that I probably spend less on beer than the swillers.  I can
have a couple of real beers and feel satisfied, whereas if I drank the
$3-4/sixpack swill, I wouldn't feel satisfied even after six, just drunk. Now
tell me who's buying the more expensive beer--even if you ignore the cost of
feeling lousy and doing stupid things. No copyright on that reply--use it
freely when you seek to educate people about real beer.

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:18:40 -0500
From: ZZZZZR at aol.com
Subject: cancel

cancel
Brian J. Bach

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 8:16:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: sanitization, yeast culturing/freezing

	Hello everyone.  Listen, would someone please tell me how to brew beer?
Thanks.
	Seriously, there has been some discussion of late regarding modes
of sanitization of bottle, carboys, etc.  Every brewer has his or her own
personal methods, but I'd thought that I'd share mine.  With regard to
bottles, after I drink a brew, I rinse the bottle with hot water and
then set it aside.  When I have two cases of clean empties, I hit 'em
with a hot squirt from my tap using a bottle/carboy washer (this is only
about $9.00, and as far as I am concerned, is one of the most useful
additions to any home brewery), then I put 'em in my dishwasher.  I run
the dishwasher without any detergent, and set it to heat dry.  This is 
done just prior to my bottling session.  After I rack my beer to the bottling
bucket, I open the dishwasher a bit to let out the scalding steam, and with
clean hands I take about a dozen or so bottles out at a time, let 'em
cool for a few moments, then I fill 'em.  If you find that you have 
inadvertently left your bottles without rinsing out the dregs, you
will have a nice thick mat of green fuzzy white hairy beasties growing
in the bottom.  In this case, I'd recommend that you soak the bottles
in a bucket of hot water and a few ounces of bleach.  Then rinse the
bottles well (very well), and proceed as above.
	To clean my glass carboys, I rinse them briefly with the bottle
washer (gotta love that thang), add a few ounces of bleach, and then fill it
with hot tap water. After a day or two, I empty the carboy, and rinse it 
really well, put some aluminum foil on the top, and store it until I need
it.  For plastic buckets/fermenters, I have found that 70% ethanol
(ethyl alcohol) in a small spray bottle works wonders.  I merely rinse
the bucket with hot water, then give it a good once-over with the ethanol,
then I wipe the inside dry with a paper towel.  Ethanol is used by many 
homebrewers, but I highly recommend it for everyone.  Be careful, though,
because it's highly flammable.
	Using these procedures, I have *never* (in several years of brewing)
experienced an infection of any kind (knock on wood, now that I've jinxed
myself).  The dishwasher is great.  I am a scientist, so I have access to
an autoclave.  I used to autoclave my bottles, but I found that some became
weakened after repeated rounds of autoclaving.  Anyway, this is some advice
from someone who is happy with his technique.
	Someone asked about freezing down yeast.  This method is for those with
lab facilities (probably not many of you, oh well).  Whenever I buy a new
yeast strain, a streak a bit out onto a sterile agar plate to get isolated
single colonies (a la Yeast Faq).  These single colonies are then grown
in several milliliters of sterile beer wort until it ferments out.  The yeast
slurry is then mixed with an equal volume of 30% sterile glycerol, 
apportioned into sterile tubes, and then kept frozen at -70 degrees C.
About a week before I brew a batch, I thaw a tube (about 1 ml), and innoculate
a 10 ml sterile starter.  After two days, I innoculate 300 mls with the
yeast from the 10 ml culture.  After about two more days, it's ready
for pitching.  Anyway, the point is that a final concentration of 15%
glycerol is the standard microbiological procedure for freezing down
bacteria and yeast.  Yeast kept at -70C are viable (in my experience) for
several years. I don't know about if they're kept at -20degrees C, but I do
know that your home freezer is not cold enough to freeze the yeast/glycerol.
	One last thing (promise).  I am making labels for my Christmas
brew using Canvas on my Macintosh.  Does anyone know where I can get
Christmassy clip art (like at some ftp site on the net)?  I really
don't want to purchase a whole set of clip art, but I need something
(like a Christmas tree or a wintry scene or Santa Claus or something)
for the center part of my label.  If anyone has a clue, I'd be greatly
appreciative.
	Ta-ta for now.  Enjoy your beer!!

Rick Gontarek
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 08:22:22 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: oregano clarification

Reading my own comments on oregano beer in HBD #1580, I notice a glaring
omission:

>By the way, there is a rather obscure Italian style of beer called Birra
>Perfetta.  I believe Pike Place brews one occasionally, though I've
>never tried theirs.

Of course, what I meant to say is that Birra Perfetta is brewed with
oregano.  (No coriander, as far as I know.)  I think it is basically a
pale ale with oregano.

Allan Rubinoff
rubinoff at bbn.com

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295" <HUMPHREY.PATRICK at igate.abbott.com>
Subject: Yeast Storage

Reif Hammond wrote:

>I understand that yeast can be "propagated" and stored by mixing the 
>slurry from the primary fermenter with 10-20% glycerin and freezing.  Does 
>anyone have any experience with this?  Is a deep freeze too cold?  How 
>long does the yeast remain viable? 

I am a microbiologist and the glycerol method is one that we use to store 
yeasts and other fungi in cold storage.  The yeasts are kept at -80C/-62F 
or in liquid nitrogen vapor (-150C/-238F) for years without any significant 
loss of viability.  I believe refrigerator freezers are somewhere in the 
neighborhood of -17C/0F and should last at least a year without dying.  The 
usual rule for freezer storage of microbes, the colder the better.  When 
bringing them out of storage, warm the container with your hand and then 
thaw them quickly with warm water.  

Our other method of storage is freeze-drying but I don't think many 
homebrewers have access to a lyophilizer.  ;-)

Pat Humphrey
Future Homebrewer


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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 09:08:41 CST
From: jal at ted.cray.com (James A Lindberg)
Subject: 1-800 brew catalogs

I've been posting this list on rec.crafts.brewing and decided to put it over
here too.  Hope it is of use, please let me know of any additions or
corrections.  The common theme is that these companies offer catalogs and you
can call the 1-800 number or send email to get them.  I will put this out twice
a month as I do on usenet.

Jim

1-800 AND INTERNET BREW NUMBERS FOR HOMEBREW CATALOGS


Big Basin Brewing       CA     800-509-2739
Fun Fermentations       CA     800-950-9463
Great Fermentations     CA     800-542-2520                     
GFSR                    CA     800-544-1867                    
Williams Brewing        CA     800-759-6025                      
Yeasty Brew Unlimited   CA     800-928-2739
Maltose Express         CT     800-625-8673
Barley & Hops Trading   FL     800-810-4677
Hearts Homebrew Supply  FL     800-392-8322    9-11 M-Th 9-12p Fr-Sa
Sebastion Brewers Sply  FL     800-780-7837              
Brew Your Own Beverages GA     800-477-2962
The Whistle Pig         GA     800-947-5744
S.P.S. Beer Stuff       IA                   spsbeer at ins.infonet.net
The Brewer's Coop       IL     800-451-6348                        
Alternative Garden Sply IL     800-444-2837                        
Heartland Hydr & HB     IL     800-354-4769                      
Beer & Wine Hobby       MA     800-523-5423                
The Modern Brewer       MA     800-736-3253
The Vineyard            MA     800-626-2371               
Brew N Kettle           MD     800-809-3003
Brew and Grow           MN     800-230-8191
Pine Cheese Mart        MN     800-596-2739
James Page Brewery      MN     800-347-4042             
Semplex                 MN     800-488-5444    jiminmpls at aol.com      
Wind River Brewing      MN     800-266-4677
The Home Brewery        MO     800-321-2739                       
Alternative Beverage    NC     800-365-2739                       
BrewBetter Supply       NC                     Brewbetter at aol.com
Stout Billy's           NH     800-392-4792
The Brewmeister         NJ     800-322-3020
Red Bank Brewing Supply NJ     800-779-7507                     
Brewers Den             NY     800-449-2739
The Brewery             NY     800-762-2560    10-6 M-Sa 12-4 Su EST
New York Homebrew       NY     800-966-2739                         
Great Lakes Brew Supply NY     800-859-4527                  
The Grape & Granary     OH     800-695-9870                 
Brew Ha Ha              PA     800-243-2620
Beer Unlimited          PA     800-515-0666    11-7 M-F 11-5 Sa-Su
U-Brew                  SC     800-845-4441
BrewHaus                TN     800-638-2437                   
DeFalco's               TX     800-216-2739
Homebrew Sup. of Dallas TX     800-270-5922    10-6 M-W,F-Sa 10-7:30
Something's Brewing     VA                     tayers at aol.com
The Homebrew Store      WA     800-827-2739
Evergreen Brewing Sup.  WA     800-789-2739
Jim's Homebrew          WA     800 326-7769
The Cellar              WA     800-342-1871                          
The Stumbling Dwarf     WA     800-789-4273
Belle City              WI     800-236-6258            
Market Basket           WI     800-824-5562
The Brew Place          WI     800-847-6721           
The Malt Shop           WI     800-235-0026
U.S. Brewing Supply            800-728-2337
BrewShack                      800-646-2739
Highlander                     800-388-3923
Hoptech                        800-379-4677
Stout Billy's                  800-392-4792

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 12:14:16 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Brewpub Location


Mark Castleman's 1s 6d worth on brewpub locations included a
warning to avoid Colorado (a rather emphatic one even).  I would
modify this to say that the Front Range has reached about capacity,
but there's more to the state than just here.

As a matter of fact, some fellow brewers & I have discussed this
and feel that Gunnison, CO (in the Southwest) would be a fine
location.  It is a beatiful location, near some amazing skiing,
located at the mouth of the Black Canyon, and is just now starting to
economically take off.  

And most importantly, it's only a hop, skip & a jump to get
to Telluride for the Bluegrass festival!

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Stampes			|  "And on the Eighth Day God
jeff at neocad.com			|    created Homebrew . . . and
Boulder, Co  			|    hasn't been heard from since"
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"God wrote this book, and It sez here in this book God made us in
 his image, so if we're dumb, then God is Dumb, and a little ugly
 on the side!" - Frank Zappa
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:36:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
Subject: Re: Sanitization

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, John DeCarlo wrote:

> 
> This sounds good.  The MW is good at heating liquids.  The steam from boiling 
> the water should sterilize quite nicely.
> 
> >I am thinking that this could be a good method of creating culture media
> >and sterile wort for starters.  One thing is for sure, you get a pretty
> >good hot break from dry extract using the MW oven in as littel as 10 minutes.
> 
> I always use this method for my starters.  Put the water, dry extract, and the
> bottle into the microwave and microwave long enough to boil everything for at 
> least 5 minutes.
> 
> In summary, I don't think you can rely on the microwaves themselves to 
> sterilize things, and ovens aren't designed to run without liquid inside of 
> some sort for long--you can damage the oven.  But it works great to generate 
> steam for sterilization.


But do you think the combination of the microwaves and the steam is a 
decent substitute for an autoclave?  I.E.  are things actually sterile 
after treatment?

=> Rich  (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org)
_______________________________________________________________________
(c) Rich Larsen, 1994 * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
    "I never drink... wine"  Bela Lugosi as Dracula
_______________________________________________________________________


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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:32:32 -0500
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: Coriander, again.

If only the ancient alchemists had known of Coriander... perhaps lead would
have become gold ;)

oops, was that another trade secret out of the bag?
regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY<btalk at aol.com>

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 11:43:02 EST
From: wszymcz at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: OG algebra, Celis White, low OG

Aaron asked what the OG of his 15 gallon batch would be if
he had 4 gallons of 1.152 wort.  
Its a simple proportion:

4 * (1.152) + 11 * (1.0) = 15 * OG

that is you mixed 4 gallons of 1.152 wort to 11 gallons
of water (SG=1.0) to get 15 gallons of dilution with
specifig gravity OG.  OG=1.041 in your case.
Maybe this problem should be posed in a grammar or
high school freshman algebra book to keep students
from saying that they'll never use algebra so why 
should they learn such useless stuff.

Steve Stroud said (in talking about the brewing of Celis White):

>side. I *don't* want judges at homebrew competitions to knock witbiers
>for 'not enough coriander', as I have seen at a recent competition.

And to think that I knocked one witbier at the Belgian Spirit of Beer 
contest for having 'too much coriander'.  I hope it wasn't submitted
by Chuck Cox.  By the way there were some excellent homebrewed whites
entered in the contest.  Maybe Pierre is getting scared that he may
have some competition soon and is no longer giving out his "secrets"
on brewing this style.

Dan Foster asks:
>We brewed a double batch of Mountmellick Irish Stout (extract) last night. 
>Both batches used identical ingredients and procedure.  Starting gravity for
>the first batch: 1.026.  For the second: 1.042.  I forgot to measure the
>gravity of the first batch until 45 minutes after we pitched yeast.  Is that
>responsible for such a low OG, or did something else go horribly wrong?

This is a common misreading due to stratification of your wort - the more
dense stuff will initially settle to the bottom and lighter stuff 
will be on top.  If you took your sample from the top of the
fermenter after letting it sit for 45 minutes and didn't stir,
you simply measured the OG of the lower density stuff on top.

Bill Szymczak
bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:51:13 EST
From: dean at zippo.com
Subject: cancel homebrew

cancel homebrew

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:56:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: Dixie Cup results...

Tom Cannon, of Fairfax VA, asked about Dixie Cup results.  They are 
available for download from my BBS (the Chicago number listed below).  
Steve Moore also has them on the Houston HBU BBS. Filename on my system 
is DIXIE94.TXT

I wont waste bandwidth with them here.  You can send me private e-mail if 
ou want to get them through the Net....

Andy Patrick (andnator at mcs.com)
Certified Beer Judge;  Brewing Instructor-College of DuPage County,IL
Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network:
Chicago 708-705-7263, Houston 713-923-6418, Milwaukee 414-238-9074

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:39:26 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Coriander in witbiers

In HBD #1580, Steve "Blue by Ewe" Stroud posted about the amount
of coriander in witbiers:

> I realize that this (the 2 grams per 5 gallons added to Celis) is 
> significantly less (by a factor of 10!) than the
> amount that Phil Seitz has recommended (1 - 1.5 gm/liter, or 1 ounce/5
> gallon) in his How-to-Brew Belgian ale series, but Phil is an admitted
> coriander lover.  
            ^^^^^
	understatement of the year!

> On the otherhand, Phil is recommending a 5 minute or less
> boil and this may account for the difference in added amount. 

The recipe for the wit that took best of show at the Spirit of Belgium
is posted below.  You'll notice that the amount of coriander is only
5 grams per 5 gallons, but half is boiled for 15 minutes and the rest
is added to the secondary.  Although I haven't received the judges'
comments back, this tastes about right.  I've also noticed that the flavor
is more intense in the kegged portion - it seems to mellow in the bottle.
The coriander should be a subtle flavor that is balanced by yeast phenolics 
and bitter and sweet orange peel.  Lactic acid or lactobacillus should be 
added to cut the sweetness, otherwise the wit would be cloying.

Here's the recipe:

	5# D-C pilsner malt
        4# raw wheat flakes
        0.4# rolled oats

Step infusion mash: Dough-in at 110, hold for 10 minutes and acidify the 
mash if the pH is above 6.  30 minute protein rest at 128 F (normally
125 F, but I wanted to get more cloudiness), followed by
a 60 minute starch conversion at 152-155 F.  Mash out at 170 for 5
minutes, and sparge to a volume of 6 1/3 gallons.  I boil off a little
more than a gallon in my set-up and end up with 5 gallons with a gravity
of 1.052.

Hop/Spices:  0.9 oz. East Kent Goldings (60 minutes=20 IBUs)
             0.25 oz. Saaz (15 minutes)
             2.5 g. freshly ground coriander (30 minutes)
             1 oz. organic orange peel from Israel (15 minutes)
             2.5 g. freshly ground coriander (secondary)

Force chilling, pitched a 1 pint starter of Wyeast 1214, and fermented at 
62 F.  I think I'll use a more phenolic yeast in my next batch.  Rack to 
the secondary after 5 days and allow to ferment out.  Here's the key 
ingredient: when bottling, add a 50-100 ml starter of lactobacillus, along 
with 3/4 cup of priming sugar.  The acidity gradually build in the bottle 
or keg, and is noticable after 2 weeks.  If you don't want to bother
with the bacteria, add USP lactic acid to taste. 

Scott
- -- 
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:53:19 -0800
From: barry at odf.UCSD.EDU (Barry Nisly)
Subject: Lots of Hops / American IPA / Acronyms

I just called the US Wholesale Homebrew Supply Co. this morning and they
said they have this year's crop in.  These are the people that sell hops
for $3.85 a *pound* and up.  Their number is in Brewing Techniques.  They
don't pay me.  I'm not even a satisified customer yet!  But I probably will
be when those 4 lbs of hops show up at my door.

***
Mike Montgomery was looking for the AHA American IPA style.  Looks like
they have one.  This is from the AHA guidelines from Spencer's Beer Page:

>6. American-Style Pale Ale
>
>a. American Pale Ale
>     Pale to deep amber/red/copper. Low to medium maltiness. High hop
>     bitterness. Medium hop flavor and aroma. Use of american hops such as
>     Cascade, Willamette, Centennial, etc. Fruity/estery. Low diacetyl OK.
>     Medium body.
>     OG 1.044-56, 4.5-5.5%, 20-40IBU, 4-11SRM.
>     Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Anchor Liberty Ale, Geary's Pale Ale.

Spencer Thomas did this up - I'm just relaying it.

***
On to more peripheral subjects-
Noel Damon writes:

> Reference to any dictionary will show: acronym...a WORD
> formed from the first letters or syllables of the 
> successive parts of a compound term.  Thus it would be

Referencing said dictionary:

word  n 1a: something that is said.

Thus if you can say it, it's a word.  I pronounce DMS "dee em ess."


Barry Nisly
bnisly at ucsd.edu

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:07:16 -0800
From: ruderman at esca.com (Curiouser and curiouser...)
Subject: Low pH Barley Wine

Over this past summer, when the sun actually shone in Seattle, I made a 5
gallon batch of barley wine.  The original potential alcohol reading was about
14%.  For the primary fermentation, I pitched a dry Pasteur champagne yeast
along with a British ale yeast (Wyeast).  After the third fermentation (about a
month after the first fermentation), I noted that fermentation had all but
stopped with a P.A. of 7%.  I repitched some champagne yeast, but there was
little improvement.  After two months, and a final P.A. of 6.8%, I gave up and
bottled my brew.  Since then, my eyes have been openned and the cause of my
problems (and really sweet barley wine) was due to a low pH (less than 4).

My question is, if I pour all my bottled barley wine into a pot, bring it back
to a boil and add in some calcium carbonate (I think that's the right stuff to
raise the pH to 4.0+), chill the wort, put it back into my carboy, and pitch
some more champagne yeast, will fermentation resume?  Has anyone tried this
sort of thing before and does it work (or does reboiling the batch wreck it in
some manner)?

Any thoughts and insights would be appreciated.

Robert Ruderman   (ruderman at esca.com) 

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:41:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE:pure O2 environments

Vandermey writes:

<Pure oxygen environments are very hazardous due to the fact that the 
combustability of everything in and around them increases dramatically.

Quite true.

<And remember the Apollo mission that burned up on the launch pad because 
they were using a pure O2 environment in the command module.

Quite true and tragic.

<In summary, these are both dangerous practices.  I would not recommend 
either one.

In the pure context yes, in the practical brewing sense, nonsense!
Remember, proper O2 injection of wort results in ~8mg/L DO (dissolved
oxygen).  Bubbling pure O2 through chilled wort for 20-60 min will
maybe come close to this amount.  No amount of flame is going to
light this solution on fire!  Be careful, but be practical first.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

PS: Welcome back Micah!

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:58:54 -0500
From: CliffR3500 at aol.com
Subject: Coriander

Hello All,

I have been following with interest the discussion about Coriander. I happend
to have been brewing two batches of my house bitter on Saturday and Sunday
when I started reading about corianders brew magic. On the fly I conducted a
minor experiment by adding about 6 seeds to the mash and about 1/2 an ounce
to the last ten minutes of the boil of one of the batches. Other than that
both batches are as identical as I can manage to make them and are fermenting
happily side by side. I'll post the tasting results in a couple of weeks. 

Until then, I was hoping to get some more information on this wonder seed.
The article that started all this commotion made some pretty sweeping
generalizations that I was hoping to get some comment on. Namely:

>I believe adding a few coriander seeds to the mash helps >reduce the effects
of hot side aeration. I also believe using >coriander in the boil helps slow
the process of oxidation in >the finished beer.

>My coriander beers tend to clear quickly and don't develop >chill haze. It
seems to me coriander has preservative and >fining properties.

The claims about its contribution to the flavor and character of the beer
I'll proabley be able to deduce on my own (Though I would be interested in
any discussion on this topic as well!), but I was wondering what other
coriander brewers out there thought about the above claims.

Looking foward to your input,
Cliff
CliffR3500 at aol.com

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:55:51 -0800 (PST)
From: dsherman at sdcc3.UCSD.EDU (Dan Sherman)
Subject: Re: Freezing yeast

In HBD #1580, Reif Hammond (CRHammond at aol.com) asks about freezing
yeast.

In laboratories, yeast is commonly frozen in a final concentration
of 25% sterile glycerol.  These are frozen at -70 to -80 C.  At
these temperatures, the yeast cells will stay viable almost
indefinitely (as long as, once frozen, the vial is never thawed).
Strains are "revived" from the frozen state by scraping a bit of the
frozen mixture off of the top and streaking it on an agar plate.

I don't have any experience trying to maintain frozen stocks at
temperatures higher or lower than the range above.  However, I don't
think a common household freezer (about -20 C) will do, especially
not a frost free freezer, which goes through constant freeze/thaw
cycles.

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu 

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Date: 16 Nov 94 21:51:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Clearing versus clarity

Mark writes:
>Oh, I SEE!  It is a clarifying/fining agent that meets the rein criteria
>to "work mechanically or by absorbing".  So that clarifying must be why 
>those cloudy wit beers taste so good!  ;^)

Actually, Carl Saxer wrote that, in his experience, beers that he has
made with coriander cleared *faster*.  The clearing of a beer has to
do with yeast settling and nothing to do with the permanent haze of a
witbier.

For all you beginners out there who are running to the grocery store
looking for coriander to put in your Oktoberfests: don't expect miracles.  
This HBD thread is a joke... Chuck and a number of others poking fun
at Carl's rather zealous excitement about coriander.  The Zymurgy article
does imply that coriander can help add that "elusive" maltiness in an
Oktoberfest, but as I read it, Carl meant this tongue-in-cheek.

Too bad it's not true, though -- I wouldn't mind it if a few drops of
coriander tea added to a paper cup of Miller turned it into Spaten Helles...

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1581, 11/17/94