FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Labeling of Brews (Gary McCarthy)
  Grain allergies (Fred Waltman)
  Re: Trub Trub ... (Marc de Jonge)
  Keeping Kids Out ("Robert W. Mech")
  Gott cooler sources ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  Re: Brown malt (Tel +44 784 443167)
  Party Pig (Stephen Tinsley)
  Fermetap ("Dave Ebert")
  Re: Malta starters (Paul Sovcik)
  Head retention in soft water (Steve Robinson)
  Recipe requests & such (Mark A. Stevens)
  Grant's Imperial clone??? (uswlsrap)
  Suck-back and PET ("v.f. daveikis")
  airlock methodology (RONALD DWELLE)
  Roller Mills - again (STROUD)
  Shearing Proteins (Domenick Venezia)
  Re:  Gott coolers ("Charles S. Jackson")
  PET & champagne bottles, words (Jeff Benjamin)
  surprise, surprise, surprise ("Charles S. Jackson")
  requesting information from BT article (Thomas Manteufel)
  Re: Grant's Imperial Stout Clone (Allan Rubinoff)
  Re: Jack Daniels Beer (Brad Woods)
  RE: Beer tasting dinner; RE: Allergy challenge ("Jeffrey W. Van Deusen")
  racking to secondary (Bryan L. Gros)
  fruit extracts/temperatures/kraeusen VS head retention/accomodations (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Kegs to Bottles ("Alan L. Edwards")
  Capping champaigne bottles (Stephen Tinsley)
  Liquid Yeast (Martin Snow)
  carbonation revisited (Cecila Strickland )



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 29 Nov 1994 15:45:25 GMT
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Labeling of Brews

>ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>  wrote in HBD 1577:

>Needless to say I carefully label my bottles now.

Yeah, I know 1577 was two weeks ago, I just got around to reading it. 
Anyway, I don't want a label that I have to clean off, we all know how it
hard it was to wash the commercial labels off the bottle.  And I know the
milk trick kind of thing.

What I do to label my batches is to keep a log and number the batch.   I have
some self-adhesive circles from the stationery store(I hate those mobile
stores!) bottle the brew,  and number the circles and stick it to the bottle
cap.  I can open a case and see the numbers of the batch.  Then I know that
14 is a Brown Beer, and 15 is a Stout.  I can go back to the log to see the
recipe, the date of brewing, bottling, etc.  Best of all is the cleanup;  the
label goes in the trash with the used cap.

Gary
EMail: Gary_McCarthy at dayna.com

Reality is for those who cannot handle drugs!  (Okay, so I grew up in the
'70s)

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Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 23:27:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Grain allergies


Rich Scotty asks about brewing without wheat, rye or barley.

One of my customers has a similar problem (or rather his father-in-law 
does). He cannot consume wheat, barley, oats or rye. The new Papazian 
book talks about using spelt (an ancient wheat) but that is out as well. 

Over the past weekend I tasted the results of his first batch and it was
pretty good. He malted both quinoa and buckwheat were malted, but the
quinoa because it was deemed to have a more "malty" taste. Also mashed
were some lentils, flaked corn and flax. The end result looked very much
like a wheat beer and had a beautiful head. The balance was off, though,
because there was very little malt to back up the hops. Version two is
underway with only quinoa and corn and about an ounce of 2.7% Liberty. I
will let you know how it turns out. 

I should mention that this was all done by a guy who had *never* brewed 
before at all. Not only was his first batch all-grain -- he had to malt 
the grains as well!

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
waltman at netcom.com




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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 11:40:36 --100
From: dejonge%hotspot at hotspot.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Re: Trub Trub ...

In HBD #1592 Robert Mech writes:

 .....
> Im curious
> as to why there is so much effort being brought on to get rid of it before
> fermenation.  Is there something im missing in all of this effort? What
> are people actually gaining from it?
 .....

Here are some reasons for all the fuss:

1. Hot break trub may interfere with fermentation (De Clerck, 1957, cites some
   examples where yeast doesn't reach its full attenuation in the presence of
   hot break, he suggests the cells starve prematurely because they get
   coated with protein).

2. Hot break trub contains most of the heavy metals dissolved from taps and
   equipment (De Clerck, 1957).

3. Many brewers experience that, especially in slowly fermenting beer, the
   break material causes harsh off-flavours that require a long period of
   'mellowing out' (if they disappear at all).

4. When a lot of cold break is present during fermentation the beer often is
   also susceptible to chill-haze formation.

Note, however, that a small amount of cold break is favourable for the
initial yeast multiplication stage (probably because there is some
dissolved nitrogenous stuff associated with it).

- ------------- 
Marc de Jonge         (dejonge at geof.ruu.nl)


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 04:39:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Keeping Kids Out

> From: Steven Lichtenberg <steve at Pentagon-EMH6.army.mil>
> Greetings all --
> Anyway I would like to know what others of you do to keep small hands out 
> of your beer.  Should I invest in a tap lock or is there another method 
> of securing the kegs?  I already secure the CO2 tank to the wall 
> (overkill for a 20# tank required for a 50#) so I am confident that it 
> will not fall over on someones head or become a rocket engine.  Is there 
> anything else I can do to maintain safety?
> 

Well, what I do is educate them about brewing!  Ive got a 2 year old, and 
a 5 year old who comes over to visit all the time.  I dont have a kegging 
system however, Ive got fermentors and bottles and such which are just as 
easily accessable.  Id suggest just telling them its "Ickys" or could 
give them an "Owie".  That usualy does it for my kid.  You said it was in 
your living room, Im assuming you have a bar down there.  One of those 
"Kiddie Gates" in front of the bar might do it as well.  

In either case, I wouldnt worry about it too much unless your kids are 
constantly over by the fridge.  My 2 year old thinks a bubbling airlock 
is the neatest thing in the world to watch.  However, he likes to grab it 
also and try to rip it off the bucket and make it his new friend for the 
day.  Usualy just telling him no, and saying "owie" does the trick.  A 1 
year old would be more difficult, but shouldnt be able to reach a tapper 
on a fridge anyhow (Unless youre a midget and have the tapper mounted 
extremely low on your fridge).

As far as drinking it, ive found that kids dont like beer till much later 
in life, the 5 year old cant stand the smell of beer.  The 2 year old 
asks for Beers all the time, but once he smells it says "Icky" and wont 
touch it.  Id be more worried about a mess than toddlers tee todleing on 
their own. 

Bascily, if its a major problem, get the locks, if its not, RDWHAHB.

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 8:38:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: Gott cooler sources

Hello everyone.  Two days ago I askes you kind folks where Santa could get
me a Gott cooler.  Thanks so much to everyone who responded (boy, do I know
where to go for answers or what?).  
	Several people suggested a mail order company called International
Reforestation Suppliers.  Their number is 800-321-1037.  A 10 gallon
Gott cooler is $44.50 plus $7.00 shipping and handling (to Baltimore).
I was also told that the maker of the Gott is Rubbermaid.  You can order
one from them directly.  Send check (no credit card orders) to:
	Rubbermaid Specialty Products
	PO Box 547
	Dept K
	Winfield, Kansas 67156

	A 10 gallon Gott/Rubbermaid cooler is $46.75 (includes shipping
and handling).  Include your UPS delivery address and a daytime telephone
number.  Their number is 800-347-3114 or 316-221-2230.
	Thanks again to everyone for the information.  It *will* be
a merry Christmas after all.  

Rick Gontarek
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov
Ownwer/brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:25:16 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Brown malt

In HBD 1592, raines at radonc.ucla.edu (Maribeth_Raines) wrote:
> 
> I am looking for a commercial source of brown malt.  I know this was 
> discussed about a year ago. and I'm looking for some to brew an 
> original british porter.  
 
Maribeth,
     apologies if I am telling you something you already know but, just
for information, the original brown malt used for porters was smoked.
 
Brian



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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 08:07:54 CST
From: a207613 at sun278.dseg.ti.com (Stephen Tinsley)
Subject: Party Pig

My wife is looking for a good xmas gift for me, and I offhandedly 
mentioned to her that a party pig might be appropriate.  We live
in a small apartment, so I don't have room for a keg refrigerator,
but I would enjoy kegging some of my beer, since it's nice to be
able to pour a big liter glass if I feel like it, and we all know
what a pain in the ass bottling is.  I have a few specific questions
for people who have experience with the pig system, in hopes of
determining if it would be worth really asking for in earnest.

1. How much does a pig hold?  ie can I keg a couple of gallons
   and bottle the rest, so I can still give it to family and friends?

2. Does a pig fit in a standard apartment refrigerator?  Our 
   refrigerator usually has enough room for a box of cheap 
   wine and a couple of gallons of milk.

3. How does the difficulty of cleaning and filling the pig compare
   with an equivalent volume of bottles?  

4. How much do they cost?

5. Are you happy with this system, and would you reccomend it for
   an intermediate level homebrewer (partial mashes, moving toward
   all grain)?

TIA for any help you can give me.  Private email or post to the digest
is fine, but if you email me, I'll post a summary in a few days.  I 
think this could be a topic of some interest, since it's Christmas time
and all.  Hoppy brewing.

 - Steve Tinsley
  stinsley at ti.com

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Date:          Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:14:02 MST-0700
From: "Dave Ebert" <DNE at Data.HSC.Colorado.edu>
Subject:       Fermetap

I was recently in a local brew shop and saw a device called 
"FERMETAP" (I think that's correct!)  It is a nice little stand and 
valve assembly that will comfortably hold an inverted 6.5 gal carboy. 
If I remember correctly it sells for $26.95 and there is a toll free 
number you can call to place orders.  If anybody has the toll free 
number and/or can share their experience with this device please let 
me know.  Email is fine.  Thanks.

Dave Ebert
dne at data.hsc.colorado.edu


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Date:         Wed, 30 Nov 94 08:30:15 CST
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Malta starters

 Pierre Jelenc writes that he has had trouble working with Malta...

I have had the same problem.  I used one bottle of Malta and pitched one
packet of rehydrated Lallemand dry yeast (No time to use liquid).

The starter was weakly working in 24 hours, when I pitched it, and the lag
time for the beer was ANOTHER 24 hours.
  Another problem is that, after the beer fermented out, I had a FG of
1.016, ersus the 1.010 I usually would get with the recipe I was brewing.
I also have a slight phenolic taste to the beer, but its just finished in the
primary, so the jury is still out on that.

My guess is that the high amount of sugar (glucose, I presume) in the Malta
induced the "Crabtree effect" and caused poor attenuation.

The label on the bottle of Malta Goya that I had said nothing about
preservatives, but I have to imagine that there must be something in there
that inhibited yeast growth.

Needless to say, my experiments with Malta Goya have ended and I dont think
Ill use it again unless othere people report good results.

 -Paul

Paul Sovcik from Chicago, Illinois

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 09:55:57 EST
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: Head retention in soft water


Cecila Strickland writes:

> I've had a problem with head creation since 
> moving to the Northwest and wonder if someone
> might know if the softer water is causing this.

DISCLAIMER:  I AM NOT A CHEMIST, AND I'VE NEVER PLAYED ONE ON TV.

Having said that, here in the Northeast we are blessed with the softest water
this side of Pilsen.  No hassles with having to boil out the precipitate; no
scale buildup on our brewing equipment; being able to emulate other water styles
simply by adding stuff; plus being able to brew genuine Bohemian-style
pilseners.  Happy, happy!  Joy, joy!

One of the problems with soft water, however, is being able to sufficiently
acidify the mash to the point where the enzymes are happy doing their thing.
The protease enzymes that break long-chained proteins down into medium-chained
proteins, improving head retention, do their best work when the pH is less
than 5.2.  Soft water just does not have enough free cations to accomplish this
unassisted.  The Czechs got around this problem by adding a three hour acid
rest to their mash cycle.  Fortunately, modern science provides us with an
easier method:  Calcium!

My hand-waving understanding of the process is as follows.  Calcium (Ca+2) ions
react with phosphate ions naturally present in the mash, releasing hydrogen
ions (H+) into solution and acidifying the mash.  Calcium may be added to the
mash in the form of gypsum (calcium sulfate).  Adding 1/2 gram of gypsum per
gallon of mash water will add 31ppm calcium and 74ppm sulfate into solution.
Do this before you dough-in the grain so that the mash has a chance to acidify
prior to doing the protein rest.  If you don't have a gram scale, then one level
teaspoon may be approximately equated with 5 grams of gypsum.

On a side note, those British draught ales are not flat as a result of brewing
with soft water.  On the contrary, southern England has some of the most
carbonate drinking water in the known world.  British taste simply prefers that
the flavor come from the beer itself, not from the gas.

I must also say that the recent threads on such things as denatured foam and
wort aeration make for much more interesting reading than copyright flame wars.
Keep up the quality postings!

Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass.
steve.robinson at analog.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 09:58:36 EST
From: Mark A. Stevens <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Recipe requests & such


Hmmm. Lots of recipe requests in HBD 1592. At least 3 postings
asking for: Sam Adams clones, Kolsch, Fullers or Newcastle clones.

All of these appeared in this august forum in the past and the
recipes are saved in the Cats Meow (check the index if you have
trouble finding them). The Cats Meow can be accessed via your
favorite web browser (Mosaic etc.) by pointing to URL:
 http://alpha.rollanet.org/cm3/CatsMeow3.html

There are also pointers to this on Spencer's Beer Page and on
Eric's Beer Page.

Cheers!
- ---Mark Stevens
   stevens at stsci.edu

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:07:47 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Grant's Imperial clone???                                        

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: Grant's Imperial clone???

Has Steve Armbrust of that other Portland (the one in Oregon, or as the locals
here in Wisconsin pronounce it, Or-y-GONE) had a few too many beers to
remember a recipe, is it an inside joke, or is it something about that Oregon
water that makes so many wonderful commercial craft beers but plays havoc with
the homebrews???

Steve offered a recipe from many years ago for a Grant's Imperial Stout clone
that started with the following ingredients:

TWO 3.3 pound cans of dark extract
TWO 4 pound cans of pale extrace
3 pounds of dark DME
1 pound of clover honey

One HUGE beer, right?  Nope, O.G. said to be only 1.075.
Now 1.075 is a pretty big beer, but almost 19 pounds of fermentables in five
gallons is going to give you just a touch more than a 1.075 gravity.

I'd almost believe it with only ONE can each of the canned extracts.

Must be that special gravity reducing water, eh? :-)

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:37:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "v.f. daveikis" <vdaveiki at julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Suck-back and PET

Season's greetings;
Recent discussions on problems with fluid from airlocks being sucked into 
the beer have avoided the one failproof solution.  Blowoff! Even if you 
don't want to use blowoff, set up the system for the first day or  the 
first  few hours after putting yoiur wort into the fermenter until the 
temperature reaches proper pitching temperature (however you may do it).  
If your blowoff hose is reaching from the top of the carboy to a 
container on the floor ( or at the base  of the carboy) and that end 
immersed in an inch of sanitized solution, youi will not get suck-back.  
The distance to pull the solution up the blowoff hose is  too great for 
the negative pressures that  would be built  up in your fermenter.  When the 
temperature has colled, either leave the system in place or  replace it 
with an airlock it if you're really worried about it.  In a sense you are 
making an airlock anyway.
  With regards th PET bottles, I've been using all sorts of plastic 
bottles for the past two years or so and have never had a problem.  I've 
used and re-used bottles from commercial beers (Wellington, Connors (when 
they had them), Well's) and from commercial soft  drinks (Coke, pepsi, 
no-name, etc).  You just have  to  do one thing when you fill them-- when 
you've got 1-1.5 inches of airspace in the top, stop filling, squeeze the 
bottle until  the beer comes to the very top, hold that position and put 
the cap on.  As the beer carbonates it allows the bottle to pop back into 
position ( you can hear it) and by feeling how  hard the bottles are you 
can tell when there is full carbonation pressure.  This prevents too much 
pressure buildup in the bottle.  I sometimes bottle exclusively with 
2-litre bottles, as I only have to wash 9 or 10 bottles instead of two 
cases for a 5-gallon batch.  Also, the little bumps on the bottom of the 
bottles are great for collecting the sediment and keeping it in place 
when pouring into a jug (very little waste, itf you're concerned about 
drinking the sediment).
  Sorry about the long-windedness but we're here to discuss, aren't we?
    Victor Daveikis

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:46:08 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: airlock methodology

     John DeCarlo wrote:
     "Also, if you correctly fill an S-shaped airlock, you will have *zero* 
     worries about liquid going in or out."
     
     So. How do you correctly fill an S-shaped airlock?

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:56:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com
Subject: Roller Mills - again

In HBD #1592, JS again tells us how lousy the plastic gears
on the Glatt mill are. 

Greg Glatt must have been listening, because according to a
local homebrew supply store (the Modern Brewer) he is now
shipping his mills with metal gears.  The Modern Brewer has
one of the newest Glatt mills, has motorized it, and is
using it for general crushing in their store.  The
proprietor told me that it has been working like a champ. 

It is too bad that Yankee Brew News reported on a version of
a mill that is no longer being produced - they could have at
least mentioned that the metal gear version was available. 

So can we now stop these endless postings about the Glatt
Mill gears and how they strip out? 


Steve 
_________ 

BTW, I am a satisfied customer of a JS roller mill, but
don't have any financial interest in any of them, unlike
some others. 


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 08:14:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Shearing Proteins

Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994  From: pmiller at mmm.com (Phil Miller)

>We started with a high molecular weight polymer with a very narrow
>molecular weight distribution.  We were concerned that the action of
>stirring would stretch/break the polystyrene molecules and goof up our MW
>distribution so we ran gel permeation chromotography of the polymer before
>and after stirring.  There was no noticable effect. 

This is very interesting and if your stirring produced foam may have
application to proteins in beer.  So, the question is, did the stirring
produce foam?

Also, it's a great experiment to try on beer.  Run a gel on the beer to get
a MW profile before agitation, then take samples every couple hours during
agitation.  Thanks.

>The main chain bond in polystyrene is a C-H bond, same as a protein,
>right?  So I don't think protein molecules are inherently 'weaker' than
>polystyrene molecules...

The main chain bonds in proteins are -C-C-N-C-C-N-, and forgive me, but
the main chain bond in polystyrene is -C-C-.  The monomer is -CH2-CH(C6H5)-.

Off to brew!

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com



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Date:     Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:41:54 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Gott coolers


Tue, 29 Nov 94 "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU> wrote:

>Hi Rick!
>I purchased my Gott cooler directly from RUBBERMAID Co..
>Call 1-800-362-1000. The 5 Gal. cooler is $48.10
>part#(51130WL). The 10 Gal. cooler is $63.49 Part#

     WHOA!  I would suggest checking with your local ACE hardware store.  My
local ACE carries the 10 gal for $49.95+tax.  Rubbermaid must have raised their
direct to consumer prices because when I investigated a few months ago there
was a savigs of ~$2.00 by ordering direct vs buying local.  I called the local
ACE and they still carry the 10'er for 49.95, didn't ask about the
5'er...sorry.

Steve
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND A felony.
                                                       The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:03:57 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: PET & champagne bottles, words

Mike (MFOR8178 at URIACC.URI.EDU) asks about PET (2l plastic) and champagne
bottles.  Both will work just fine for beer.

While I don't use PET bottles for beer, I do use them for homemade soda
pop, which is even more highly carbonated than beer.  They can easily
hold the pressure.  Next time you buy some pop, thwack the bottle before
you open it -- those things are rock hard.  I've even heard stories
about folks driving over them with with cars without the integrity
giving.  PET is oxygen permeable, however (anyone know by how much?), so
you might not want to use it for beers you intend to lay down for long
periods.

If you want to use champagne bottles (also nice and strong, and won't
pass O2) that will fit standard bottle caps, get American "champagne"
bottles like Totts, Cook's, etc.  Imports have a wider lip that won't
work.

> And remember that yeast reproduce BOTH aerobically and anaerobically.  We
> aerate for ergosterol synthesis NOT for cell count.

Thanks to Domenick for the explanation of what aeration is *really*
for.  Ergosterols!  Another great word to impress your non-homebrewing
buddies.

> Sorry for the bandwidth.
> Maribeth Raines
> raines at radonc.ucla.edu

Please don't apologize.  I think everyone is happy to see knowledgable,
fact-filled posts about *beer* instead of about trademarks(TM), bounced
mail, or copyrights.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date:     Wed, 30 Nov 94 11:06:57 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  surprise, surprise, surprise

 CAUTION:  THIS POST INFORMATION OF A LOCAL NATURE!  But of general interest.

 Just a note of interest.  Yesterday I was in a grocery store in a small
 rural town in AL.  As I passed through the syrup section my eye was caught
 by the word MALT on a can.  There were many 1kg cans of Premier light
 hopped malt extract!, complete with the yeast packet and the ususal
 instructions to add a few tons of sugar etc.  The point being malt extract
 on the shelves of the grocery store in a prohibition state!  I asked the
 clerk about how long those cans (~18) had been there.  He said that they
 sell about a case (24) every month.  $3.46 for a 2.2lb can didn't seem to
 bad to me.

 Steve
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                                   The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 11:35:35 CST
From: manteufe at mr.med.ge.com (Thomas Manteufel)
Subject: requesting information from BT article

I would like to talk off-line to someone who has access to the BT article
comparing the various "Beer of the Month" clubs.  Specifially, I need
information comparing BAA and Bs2Y.  My apologies for the waste of our
precious bandwidth.
Thank you,           Thomas Manteufel          manteufe at gemed.med.ge.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 12:55:28 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Grant's Imperial Stout Clone

In HBD #1592, Steve Armbrust <Steve_Armbrust at ccm.co.intel.com> posts his
recipe for a Grant's Imperial Stout clone:

>Grant's Imperial Stout Clone -- recipe for FIVE gallons

>   Two 3.3 lb cans Edme SFX dark unhopped extract
>   Two 4 lb cans Alexanders unhopped extract
>   3 lbs M&F dark dry extract
>   1 lb clover honey
>   1/2 lb chocolate malt
>   1/2 lb roasted barley
>   5 oz cascade hops (in boil for 60 minutes)
>   1 oz bullion hops (dry hopped for 3-4 days)
>   Wyeast 1084 Irish ale yeast

>   OG 1.075
>   FG 1.034 

Something's wrong here.  This recipe will give an original gravity of
around 1.120 or 1.130, not 1.075.  One can each of the EDME and the
Alexander's would be much closer to the mark.

Sorry to nitpick, but I'd hate to see anyone try this and make five
gallons of pancake syrup.

Allan Rubinoff
rubinoff at bbn.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:44:41 -0800
From: bmw at teleport.com (Brad Woods)
Subject: Re: Jack Daniels Beer

Guy McConnell writes:


>LYNCHBURG, Tenn.- "The distillery that gave drinkers a slow-sipping
>whiskey is >considering a slow-brewing beer.
>
>Jack Daniel Distillery is testing Jack Daniel 1866 Classic Amber Lager
>Beer in >Nashville, Tenn., and it will decide whether to market it after
>the month-long >taste test.
>
>Jack Daniel is joining a move to revive turn-of-the-century beer
>production >practices: slow brewing small batches from only 100% malted
>barley, hops, >yeast, and water, all from the United States."
>
>
>Lynchburg is still in a dry county, yes?


This is a project that has been going on for some time.  As I understand
it, the taste test may involve several different brews not all of which are
custom for Jack Daniels.  The beers are being brewed at Evansville Brewing,
Evansville Indiana.  I have tried several of their brews, including one
that was reportedly done for Jack Daniels.  They were typical, mainstream,
megaswill beers with no real character except for the faint house flavor
that all Evansville beers have from their yeast.  BTW, I was told that they
use the same yeast strain for every brew, so, at best, Jack Daniels Beer
will differ only in grain bill from other Evansville products, and then
only slightly.

Regarding "small batches", the minimum effective Evansville brewlength is
375 bbls.  As to the "turn-of-the-century" bit, calling it 1986 Classic
would be closer to the truth than 1866....  On a positive note, this is a
marketing beer that may draw some of the fire away from Boston Beer Co.

___________________________________________________________________________
Bradley M. Woods                    Director, Asia/Pacific Operations
NetStar, Inc.                       woods at netstar.com
10701 SW Eleventh Drive             (503) 977-9609 voice
Portland, Oregon 97219              (503) 244-5739 facsimile
USA



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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:01:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jeffrey W. Van Deusen" <VANDEUSEN001 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>
Subject: RE: Beer tasting dinner; RE: Allergy challenge


          Hello all!

     Stan White asked about ideas for a beer tasting dinner a few issues
back. Most of the responses suggested micros to serve, but a friend of mine
and I served only our own homebrew and one "homewine".

     Here's the menu:

Appetizer: Clams Casino                  Beer: India Pale Ale
Soup     : French Onion                  Beer: Amber Ale
Salad    : Caesar                        Beer: Cream Ale
Main
Course   : Grilled chicken
           and vegetables                Beer:
                                               Pilsner Lager
Dessert  : Blueberry Mousse
           topped with homemade
           blueberry jam                 Wine: Mild Blueberry Wine

     The chicken and vegetables were grilled using natural hardwood charcoal,
and while they were cooking, the first three courses were enjoyed. This was
an extremely enjoyable meal and evening.

     In HBD #1591, Rich asked about a non-wheat, barley, and rye beer to
which Thomas Junier responded about Guiness Stout being brewed with sorghum
in Africa...   Well.... about 4 1/2 years ago as fate would have it, I was
in the country of Kenya in eastern Africa for a couple of weeks and had the
opportunity to try Guiness Stout (bottled). Having not yet begun my brewing
adventures at that time, I could only compare it to the Guiness I've had
here in the States. The result?.....I enjoyed it very much! It was not a
watered down version, nor were there any strange off flavors from the
original. As to whether or not it is actually brewed with sorghum, I do not
know for sure. If it is, that may be your answer to an allergy-friendly
homebrew!
                                     Good luck!
                             
                            Jeffrey Van Deusen in Danbury, CT
                             vandeusen001 at wcsub.ctstateu.edu

P.S. Many people responded via private email to the comment I posted a few
issues back about the Mocha Java Stout. I inadvertantly forgot to mention
where the recipe came from! Oops :(  The recipe can be found in the stout
and porter chapter of Cat's Meow. BTW, this brew tastes great!!!


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:09:38 -0800
From: bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: racking to secondary

I've read here where aeration during fermenation is bad.  I forgot why it is
bad,
but I've basically avoided it.

My question is about racking to the secondary.  Is aeration at this point also
bad?  Recent articles in Brewing Techniques have described a closed system where
beer is racked under CO2 pressure so it never contacts air after fermentation
begins.  This idea implies that there is nothing bad about NOT aerating in the
secondary.  It would be easy for me to fill the secondary carboy with CO2 before
I siphon, thus keeping almost all air out.

Thanks for your opinions.

Bryan Gros
bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu


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Date: 30 Nov 94 16:22:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: fruit extracts/temperatures/kraeusen VS head retention/accomodations

Paul writes:
>If you have your heart set on making this batch with raspberries then try
>adding a couple ounces of the natural fruit flavors that are available.
>I have never used them, but good results have been reported. Adding
>to the secondary seems to be the most common method.

I have not used every brand of these "100% natural fruit extracts" but of
the ones that I have tried, I have been very disappointed.  Once you get
enough of the extract into the beer to impart the proper (to my taste)
amount of fruit flavor/aroma, the beer begins to taste overly bitter and
slightly medicinal.  I tried two varieties and many different concentrations.
I even tried aging it a few weeks, but that did not help.

I've read good things about these extracts from some users and bad things
from others, but I personally have not been able to make a decent fruit
beer with them.

>Also, fruit beers will often come out over carbonated. It has been theorized
>that the complex sugars in the fruit take longer to be eaten by the
>yeast. This results in excess carbonation in bottles that age more than
>a few weeks. (Anyone else notice this?)

I too have noticed this.  It took about 6 or 9 months for one batch of
real fruit (raspberry/cherry) ale to overcarbonate.  I suspect that I
got a little wild yeast or bacteria in there with the fruit.  So little
that it took a long time to become noticable.  I don't think that the
primary fermentation yeast would take so long to overcarbonate (i.e. I
don't think it's the primary yeast eating bigger sugars).  I know that
most (all?) bacteria don't produce CO2, but I theorize that they contribute
to overcarbonation because they can break bonds in dextrins that result
in smaller sugars which are subsequently eaten by the primary yeast.

*********
Someone (sorry), a few days ago, wrote some temperatures along with
their importance.  It was something on the order of "above 140F you
get the effects of Hot Side Aeration (HSA), between 140F and 95F you have
the risk of infection, etc."  I believe this person had some of the
numbers mixed up.

The only brewing-related things I can think of associated with 140F
are:

1. it is the high end of the protein rest range -- the end that favors
small protein formation over amino acid formation, and

2. the temperature above which SMM (S-methyl methionine) is converted
to DMS (dimethyl sulfide) -- so, minimizing the time spent between boil
and 140F is primarily to reduce the production of DMS that could spill-over
into the final beer.

Also, regarding HSA, the commonly accepted temperature above which it
is not recommended to introduce air/oxygen is 80F, not 140F.

********
I don't know if this is what started this recent head retention thread, but
Andy wrote:
>The Coopers kits have very unusual instructions. I shall quote a little:
> 
>"Common faults
>2. Lack of head - Some of the froth has been lost prior to bottling
>e.g. either through the air-lock of the fermenter, through skimming (do not
>skim head) or through froth lost during bottling."

My opinion on this (based on several experiments) is that there is no
noticable effect on head retention due to using blowoff versus not using
blowoff.

********
Repeat request: I'm looking for suggestions of Inns/Guesthouses in/near
Vienna, Munich, Dusseldorf, Koeln, Brussels, Brugge and London.  Any
recommendations (or warnings!) would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 11:35:33 PST
From: "Alan L. Edwards" <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Kegs to Bottles

| In HBD #1586, dsetser at nttfsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov,
| Dave Setser wrote:
| | Does anyone know of a method whereby I can condition my beer in the
| | keg, and then use the keg to fill a limited number of bottles?

In HBD #1591, ale at cisco.com, aka ME, aka Alan,
I replied:
| ... Now I keg all of my beers; and when I want to give some away, or take
| some to a party, I fill plastic PETE bottles and recarbonate the beer on
| the spot with a wonderful new thing called "The Carbonator".  (I think
| that's what it's called.)

I just checked my latest issue of Brewing Techniques for their advertisement
(Vol 2 No 6 p.63):  It indeed is called The Carbonator.  Several people
wrote me asking where to get this product.  Just thumb through your recent
issues of Brewing Techniques or Zymurgy.  I don't think it would be
appropriate to give out the address here, but if you send me email I will
be more than happy to forward it to you.

You should be able to find this product in your local homebrew store (I
did).  Like with any product though, if enough people express their
interest in a product, they will start stocking it.

| ... Another good point is that with practice, you can acheive the right
| carbonation level on the spot, without regard to the carbonation level
| that the beer was at when you started.  Just fill the container (give
| yourself plenty of headspace) and apply 25-35 pounds of CO2 (depending
| on the temperature of the beer) and shake it vigorously.

I forgot to mention another advantage.  It doesn't matter what the beer
temperature is.  So you don't have to chill you're whole keg, as is
recommended with counterpressure bottle filling.  If the beer is warm,
just use a little more pressure to force carbonate it.

I mention this because I noticed that Dave Setser in his public "thank
you" message (you're welcome!) alluded to a method of using soda bottles
where you need to chill everything.  (What a pain!)  Not true with this
method.

Once again:
| I have no affiliation with the makers of the gizmo in question.
| I must warn everyone that you should NEVER force carbonate anything
| in glass containers.  Also, the makers of the gizmo say that you
| shouldn't go over 40 pounds on PETE bottles.

Have fun,
 -Alan

Alan L. Edwards                      ale at cisco.com          |        |    
Systems Administrator                Cisco Systems Inc     |||      |||   
Engineering Computer Services (ECS)  408-526-5283      ..|||||||..|||||||..

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 13:48:09 CST
From: a207613 at sun278.dseg.ti.com (Stephen Tinsley)
Subject: Capping champaigne bottles

I've got another question...
I read in Papazian's book that you can cap Champaigne bottles.  My question
is ... how?  Will standard sized bottle caps work, or do they make some 
bigger caps that will fit the bigger neck size of the champaigne bottle?
I would like to be able to bottle in .750 L bottles like that, but I would
like to be able to recycle used bottles.  If I get enough responses I'll
post a summary.  TIA.

 - Steve Tinsley
   stinsley at ti.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 20:18:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martin Snow <SNOW at lyrae.colorado.edu>
Subject: Liquid Yeast

It is commonly said that the easiest way for a beginner to improve his or her
homebrew is to switch to liquid yeast.  It's my opinion that this is only
partially true.  Using liquid yeast cultures without making a starter will
result in beer that is about the same as that produced using a dry yeast.

My first experiment with liquid yeast was pretty disapointing.  I made a brown
ale using Wyeast European Ale culture which was supposed to leave a very
malty taste.  Like many others, I thought that using a starter was only 
for the purpose of getting fermentation started sooner.  Since I have never
had much of a problem with slow starts, I thought the starter culture could
be skipped.  I had a few bottles from a previous batch using the same recipe 
except for the Munton & Fison (dry) ale yeast on hand for comparison.  The
two were pretty similar, although the batch made with dry yeast was a little
more watery than the fresher batch, but otherwise not much different.  
I thought the gains from liquid yeast were rather overhyped.

But I wanted to make sure, so a few batches later, I made a Pale Ale using
the Wyeast American Ale culture.  This time, I thought I'd try making a
starter first.  The result was a smooth, wonderful ale.  The companion
batch made with Edme dry yeast now seemed harsh by comparison.  I was now
hooked on liquid yeast (so to speak).

Not realizing the importance of the starter, I later made a batch of Wee Heavy
from a kit sold by St. Patrick's.  Their catalog indicated that a starter
wasn't really necessary for a Wyeast foil pack, so I just poured the swolen
packet into the fermenter.  The resulting ale has lots of subtle off-flavors
which I now blame on the lack of a starter.

With that bit of history, I'm now trying to determine the relationship between
starter size and flavor.  According to Noonan's book on Scotch Ale, a larger
starter reduces the amount of esters produced by the yeast.  TNCJOH doesn't
mention anything about starter size, nor does the yeast FAQ.  I don't recall
anything in Miller's book either.  Has anyone done systematic research on
how the size of the initial yeast population affects the final product?
My own (anecdotal) evidence indicates that a 2 quart starter for a 5 gallon
batch makes a huge improvement in flavor.

So the old saying that liquid yeasts will improve your brew is only true if
you make a starter.  If you don't make a starter culture, you might as well
use a dry yeast.

Martin Snow
snow at lyrae.colorado.edu

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Date: Wed 30 Nov 94 12:20:50-PST
From: Cecila Strickland <CID at mathom.xkl.com>
Subject: carbonation revisited

Hi,

I've gotten a few private responses to my posting about
lack of carbonation in my beer and it would seem a 
little clarification is in order.  Originally I asked if the
lack of additives to condition the very soft Northwest
water might be a the problem since the water is the only
different variable I can identify between my present and
former residences.

First, my beer is flat - there is some stirring of bubbles
on the surface when the brew is poured, but no head
formation.  This has been consisent through 10 or so
batches over the two years.   I do have one exception 
 - an outrageously good and creamy Oatmeal Stout that 
forms a thin, but brief head.  Generally, I make cream 
and heavier pale ales, so don't have the advantage of 
lots of additional malts and other grains as in my Stout.
I have tried using crystal malts in greater quantities as 
well. I brew outside in a 9 gallon pot, both full grains and 
extracts, and generally use liquid Ale Yeasts.  Occasionally
I culture yeast from other brews to make specialty beers 
like Trappist or IPA's.  For cooling, I use a counterflow copper 
tube device.  I ferment the primary in plastic and 
the secondary in glass, usually bottling within 2-4 weeks,
depending on time and fermentation.  

As a few people mentioned, the storage area is on the
cool side - it probably never gets above 65 degrees
during the spring/fall/winter.  Actually, this is a
characteristic of my house in general.  I do most of 
my brewing in the fall and winter, and have to put the 
carboys near the wood stove to get warm enough
for active fermentation.

I generally carbonate with 2/3 to 3/4 cup corn sugar, 
and have also tried larger quantities of dry malt extract
1 - 1 1/2 cups.  I purchase most of my ingredients
through Williams Brewing in California, except the hops,
which are purchased locally. 

Help!
 
- -------

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1593, 12/01/94