FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Celis Raspberry trade / Sam Adams(tm) clone / Non-alcohol beer (Keith Frank)
  Blueberry Stout / Raspberries / Newcastle Recipe (eric addkison pendergrass)
  Watery beer, airlock siphon, Wiley mill ("nancy e. renner")
  Clumping Dry Malt ("KEVIN FONS Q/T BPR X7814)
  which soda keg is better? (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
  cincinnati (jehartzl)
  Re: support your local (Michigan) brewers (Dave Coombs)
  Fermentor Geometry ("Manning Martin MP")
  My Celis clone (Douglas R. Jones)
  FOOP, brown malt, watery lager, O2 (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Historical Recipes from Canada (John Grant)
  SA Clone, FOOP (Don Rudolph)
  Kolsch, Allergy Brew (Don Rudolph)
  Iodophor (Lee Bussy)
  RIMS Temp control (DONBREW)
  Wichita Homebrew Competition (Lee Bussy)
  Long aerations (Bob Jones)
  wort aeration (Ilkka Sysila)
  Inverted Carboy? ("Robert W. Mech")
  Smoking Grains ("Robert W. Mech")
  CP bottling and cold hopping (MicahM1269)
  foam (ROBERT E DAVIS )
  kids & beer ... (Chris Lyons)
  PH Meters (Jim_Merrill)
  The Modern Brewer (Greg Kushmerek)
  flavor wheel (Btalk)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 14:42:33 -0600
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Celis Raspberry trade / Sam Adams(tm) clone / Non-alcohol beer

*** From Bruce DeBolt ***

I will travelling to Richmond, VA on Dec. 6, arriving late afternoon/
evening.  If anyone in the area is interested in Celis Raspberry beer I 
would be willing to bring a six pack in exchange for a regional micro six 
pack, especially if it is a holiday/winter type.  Private e-mail on this 
please.  My understanding is that Celis Raspberry will not be distributed 
nationally until this spring.  

Regarding the Sam Adams clone request from Jack Skeels (I hate to post this, 
especially after blasting Boston Beer Works in previous posts, but to help 
an interested homebrewer...).   I made one last January using 
a blend of pale and amber extracts (about 1.050 o.g.), Wyeast 1056 fermented 
at 55-60F, and dry hopping with 1 oz. of Liberty pellets in the secondary.  
I was shooting for a lager type mellowness by fermenting at low temperature 
and it worked well.  It was probably the most popular beer I've made for 
the non-homebrewing friends.  Don't have the details at the office so 
apologize for lack of quantities, etc.

There was a post about the usefulness of the Carbonator cap yesterday, I'd 
like to add one more.  At the request of a pregnant friend I made low-to-no 
alcohol beer by heating a Sierra Nevada type pale ale homebrew to 180F 
(azeotrope for ethanol/water is 172F) for 5-10 min. with stirring, then 
cooling rapidly and force carbonating in a 16 oz. PET bottle using the 
Carbonator cap.  I used about 25 lb pressure and placed in an ice water bath 
for 1-2 hours with lot of shaking.  It worked very well.  I had no way to 
quantitate the alcohol content but judging from the volume loss and the 
(lack of) taste I think it was nil.  Taste was much better than O'Doull's, 
etc. but of course not up to the real thing.  Bottom line is she liked it.  
I am going to try this with some other styles and will report later if 
there is interest.  By the way, the beer freezes much quicker without the 
alcohol, we found out the hard way on the first attempt to carbonate it 
quicker.  No affiliation with the product, etc.


Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX
c/o keithfrank at dow.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:07:02 -0500 (EST)
From: eric addkison pendergrass <pendeea3 at wfu.edu>
Subject: Blueberry Stout / Raspberries / Newcastle Recipe

A friend and I are brewing a an Irish stout and want to flavor it with 
some sort of fruit (like blueberries).  I was wondering how much to use, 
and what, if any, special techniques to employ.  As well, if there are 
any other fruits (besides blueberries or raspberries) which would work 
well I would appreciate the input.

- --------------
I put about 30 oz. of canned raspberries in the secondary of a german 
alt, and was wondering if I should have crushed the raspberries first (to 
make full use of the juices trapped in the berries).  Is this generally 
what is done, or are these types of fruits generally left whole?

- --------------
Kevin Fons asked about a recipe for Newcastle Brown Ale.  Here is one 
which is supposed to be similar:

From: carl.price at cae.ppd.ti.com (cprice)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: New Castle Brown Ale Recipe ?
Date: 12 Oct 1994 20:09:03 GMT

I made Papazian "Naked Sunday Brown Ale" several months ago and was very
impressed with the similarity to New Castle.  HomeBrew Headquarters didn't
have the canned/hopped extract that Papazian's recipe called for so I used:
2lbs of Pale Malt extract
4lbs of Amber Malt extract
1oz Willamete Hops (boil)
1/4 tsp Irish Moss (last 15 min)
Boil the whole mess 1 hour.
Pitch yeast.  I used the Wyeast British Ale "smack pack" started the day before.

[pendeea3 at wfu.edu]

 -Eric-_____________________________________________________________
pendeea3 at wfu.edu                | WWW: http://www.wfu.edu/~pendeea3
pendgrss at whale.st.usm.edu       |
erpendergras at pollux.davidson.edu| 
 


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:30:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Watery beer, airlock siphon, Wiley mill

(From *Jeff* Renner)
Eamonn McKernan has watery beer (as I recall, a lager at ~1044) that he 
wants to "doctor."  First, Eamonn, let me suggest that, since you say 
thihs has happened twice, perhaps your hydrometer is off.  A 1044 beer 
really shouldn't taste watery.  I've seen hydrometers off by .008.  Maybe 
your extraction isn't as efficient as you think.  Tap water at the 
specified temp. (prob. 15^C) is pretty close to 1.000, but use distilled 
water.  I went through about a dozen in the bin at my shop before getting 
one that was accurate.

Next, what about that beer in your secondary.  I really wouldn't think it 
would work too well to add a large amount of fermentables to it.  Here 
are some ideas - hop tea (if it is underhopped), crystal malt "tea" for 
priming, roast malt "tea" (probably chocolate) for color and flavor 
interest.  Or brew up a bull batch of overkill lager and combine the two.

***

I may have been misunderstood when I mentioned siphoning of chlorine 
water into my beer.  I meant from the blowoff bucket thru the blowoff 
tube.  That's why I use a one piece airlock first.  I like to use vodka, 
too, even though water may work.  Vodka is especially important when 
lagering, when water might freeze.

***

v.f. daveikis has a Wiley Mill.  I think the Coyote should know about 
this!  It is probably mfg. by Acme. ;-)  What I think you have, v.f., is 
a hammer mill.  Our local organic flour mill uses one, which they like 
because it doesn't raise  the flour temp as much as stone mills.  Usually 
I've seen them at feed stores, where they are used for grinding grains 
for livestock.  I think it'd be hard to control the crush - it'd probably 
be too fine and the husks would almost surely be too fine for lautering 
efficiency.  But try it in situ bevore you move it!

Jeff in Ann Arbor c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 15:55:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "KEVIN FONS Q/T BPR X7814 <KFONS at china.qgraph.com>" <KFONS at china.qgraph.com>
Subject: Clumping Dry Malt

Does anyone have a good way to prevent dry malt from "clumping" when it is
added to the boil?  After it forms into those huge caramel corns it is a
nightmare to dissolve.

Kevin Fons   <KFONS at QGRAPH.COM>

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:56 EST
From: CSS2 at OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: which soda keg is better?

A question for the collective wisdom of the HBD:

I am considering getting a spare fridge and a soda keg setup for my
homebrew...I'm tired of filling and capping bottles, and at $33 a case I can't
buy enough Grolsh to give me sufficient swing-topp bottles...SO
I have access to both Pepsi and Coke kegs, I mean pin-lock and ball-lock kegs
from various connections that I have, so the question is - which is better?
Is one version better than the other?  Any inherent problems with either type
(ie., harder to sanitize, leaks more often, etc). Before I go ahead and start
buttering up people for kegs, I'd like to know which is better for beer
applications - or is there no difference???
Private email is fine; if anyone is interested, I'll post the results later.
Thanks and Hoppy Brewing
Curt
css2 at oas.psu.edu

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:50:24 -0600 (CST)
From: jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Subject: cincinnati

i am visiting cincinnati this weekend and i wondered if anyone might have
some info on any brewpubs in the area. please send via private email. thank
you in advance.
jeh
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hartzler                           Office of Student Insurance
jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                        Campus Box 2541
Benefits Counselor & ACS Major                 Normal IL  61790-2541
=====================================================================

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 18:05:02 -0500
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: Re: support your local (Michigan) brewers

Ron Dwelle <dweller at GVSU.EDU> asked for micro recommendations.  Bob
Paolino <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com> urged supporting local brewers.

I heartily second Bob's message.  Support your good local brewers!
Support your good local brewers!  (At least when you run out of hb.)
Fortunately, GVSU is located near Kalamazoo, home of Bell's.  If
Bell's several ales don't provide enough variety, Frankenmuth's
pilsner is pretty good even if it's from the east side of the state
(but leave alone their "old detroit" ale or whatever it's called).
There may be others I don't know about since I haven't lived in
Michigan since 1986.

dave (trust me, I'm a doctor) coombs,
in Gaithersburg, MD, which is now on the map with a decent brewpub.


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Date: 30 Nov 1994 13:22:48 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Fermentor Geometry

This is an interesting subject indeed. Why not stir up a fermentor geometry
debate?

I still think that the difference in geometry between a carboy configured
(filled) for blow-off vs. not is insignificant, but as regards my other
comments on fermentor geometry, Jeff Berton provided me with the info Al K.
referenced.   Looks like I missed this one the first time around.  I do not
claim to be an expert on this subject, but I still don't see what it is about
the geometry that could possibly be causing the effects descrbed.  Perhaps
even more curious is the extreme sensitivity or lack thereof in different
strains.

G. Fix> I feel this depends very much on the yeast strain used. For example,
GF> W-34/70 makes much better beer when fermented in a squat 1/4 bbl.
GF> pony keg than it does in a Cornelius keg. The effects are striking
GF> and include fermentation times (7-8 days vs. 18-21 days), longer
GF> lag times (4-6 hrs vs. 24-36 hrs.), and higher end point diacetyl
GF> levels. On the other hand, strains like St. Louis lager (aka A-B
GF> lager) do not seem to be affected as much.

These changes are so dramatically different that it seems like some other
variable has changed. Perhaps there was variation in the pitching rate or
wort aeration? (Lag and ferment times are sensitive to these).  Were the wort
compositions similar? How many tests were done? 

GF> The data on W-34/70 refers to fermentations at this strain's
GF> optimal temperature; i.e., 48F.

If this was the ambient temperature, rather than the internal (beer)
temperature, perhaps the geometry difference (surface/volume and thin-walled
soda keg vs thick-walled quarter barrel, and likely better convective heat
transfer coefficents on both the beer and air sides for the taller vessel)
changed the heat transfer from the fermenting beer enough to change its
internal temperature significantly?  The soda keg will certainly ferment
cooler than the quarter for the same ambient temperature, and, it is well
known that different strains quit at different temperatures, and that a few
degrees can be significant for any given strain.

GF> I cited only lager yeast, but the same issues apply to
GF> ale strains as well. A striking case is the new single strain
GF> Whitbread yeast. It has been trashed because of poor attenuation and
GF> flocculation in tall unis. 

This is curious; poor attenuation and poor flocculation do not often go
together. Also, these are tall commercial tanks right? "Tall" means how many
feet?

On system size..

>George Fix> In fact, it is just the opposite, and indeed these effects seem
>GF>         to be the most significant for small systems. DeClerck did most
>GF>         of his work on his liter sized lab system (see e.g. the
references
>GF>         quoted in Textbook of Brewing, Vol. 1)

I'd like to check this out, but I don't own a copy of the book.  Any body
care to look and report?

Cheers,

MPM


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 17:48:40 -0600
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: My Celis clone

Thought I might use a little bandwidth! Sorry! 

I have had the pleasure of drinking my 1st partial mash over the last few
days! it is great! Big hit at a party we had the other night. I would like
to thank all of you netbrewers who assisted me in getting expected values
for various grains and advice on partial mashes etc. The brew is very smooth
with a nice head (first brew I have done in 9 batches that I can say that)
enough hops to make them noticable but overpowering (I'm no hop head) and a
nice residual sweetness. This may become the first House Brew!

Recipe available upon request!

By the way Dale with the barley llergy. I tried to mail you and it bounced.
If you see this please mail me as I woul like to exchange some information.

Thanks for the bandwidth.....backto lurking

Doug
- --------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of       |   Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space' |   IEX Corporation
        Led Zepplin       |   (214)301-1307
                          |   djones at iex.com
- --------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 15:56:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: FOOP, brown malt, watery lager, O2

I have been holding back from the FOOP discussion but in the last HBD there
were several statements I felt I had to comment on.
_____________
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>

Most denatured proteins will spontaneously "renature" when returned to the
original conditions.  Presumably if a protein is "natured" when in
solution in the beer/wort, then denatures by the hydrophilic/phobic forces
in the foam, then falls back into solution it will refold to its original
configuration.  
- -------------

I think you should ask one of the yeast guys where you work to vortex up 
some kind of enzyme really well, let the foam subside, then try using it.  
Protein folding is one of the mysteries of biology and most proteins will 
not correctly re-fold once denatured.

He continues:
_____________
Actually, given that the foam is a result of denatured
(extended) proteins, it doesn't matter how the protein folds in solution
and it doesn't matter whether it returns to its "original" configuration,
since its behavior in solution does not determine foam production.  Given
that foam production is the result of the hydrophilic/phobic character of
the proteins, and that hydrophilic/phobic character of the protein is
solely determined by its sequence of amino acids, unless that sequence
changes, e.g., the chain is broken or chemical bonds are broken, its
hydrophilic/phobic character can not be "used up" or changed. 
- -------------

I agree with the first part.  Unlike the enzyme in my example above, the 
exact folding shouldn't matter, but contrary to the latter statements, 
denaturing proteins may lead to their hydrophobic areas associating with 
each other, with the hydrophillic areas being exposed to the solution.  
This could reduce the surface action of the protein.  The character is not 
used up, but hidden.  I am also skeptical that this effect is real.

I'm also going to agree with Phil Miller by disagreeing with some of his 
statements.
____________
From: pmiller at mmm.com (Phil Miller)

The main chain bond in polystyrene is a C-H bond, same as a protein,
right?  So I don't think protein molecules are inherently 'weaker' than
polystyrene molecules...
- ------------

I'm sure Phil meant to say that the main chain bond in polystyrene is a C-C
bond.  This is not the same as in proteins which are -C-C-N-C-C-N-, with 
every other C having a double bonded oxygen on it, contributing some  
double bond character to the main chain.

Again I am skeptical of the effect of FOOP, especially as mediated by chain
breakage.  These bonds are pretty strong.

Here is my experiment.  I have a bottle of beer on my kitchen counter.  I 
am going to give it a good shaking every time I think to.  I will time how 
long the foam lasts the first time and later if it seems to get shorter.

***************************
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
I have a watery lager in the secondary. I want to add some flavour, but
not much (if any) more alcohol. 
- ---------------
First, I find that flat beer from the fermenter always tastes more watery 
than it will later.  Maltodextrin will add residual sweetness (and body?).
Dry hopping will add flavor (Sam Adams dry hops their lager).  A mini mash 
of some (.5 lb?) light crystal (boil and cool before adding) might flesh 
things out a bit too.  I wouldn't worry about adding fermentables at this 
stage, but you will have to age it more.

***************************
From: raines at radonc.ucla.edu (Maribeth_Raines)

I am looking for a commercial source of brown malt.  I know this was 
discussed about a year ago. and I'm looking for some to brew an 
original british porter.  
- ---------------

The Beverage People in Santa Rosa, CA carry this.  Call 1800-555-1212 for 
their number.  I did this earlier this year and it turned out great except 
for a better than average mash yield resulting in an OG of 1.077!  Adding 
some Brettanomyces smoothed out the esteriness.

She also adds,
_______________
There are several things which suggest at least to me, to aerate after 
pitching.  First is that the *maximum* amount of oxygen that can be 
dissolved in cooled wort is 8 ppm.  
- ----------------

Note that this is only for adding oxygen with air.  The levels can be made 
much higher with pure O2 gas, which is used by many commercial breweries.

Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu

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Date: 30 Nov 94 19:24:27 EST
From: John Grant <74444.3034 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Historical Recipes from Canada

Hi Folks!

Here a few interesting historical brews from Canada. All of these recipes are
taken from "Young's Demonstrative Translation Of Scientific Secrets; Or A
Collection Of Above 500 Useful Receipts On A Variety Of Subjects" by Daniel
Young. Printed by Rowsell & Ellis, King Street East, Toronto, Canada, 1861. The
entire document was deciphered, computerized, and uploaded to the Compuserve
TWHOME Forum (secret.zip) by Paul Hubbs and Bob Gravonic of Toronto.


Cider Without Apples

To each gallon of cold water put 1 lb. common sugar, 1/2 ounce of tartaric acid,
one tablespoonful of yeast, shake well, make in an evening and it  will be fit
for use next day. I make in a keg a few gallons at a time,  leaving a few quarts
to make into next time, not using yeast again until  the keg needs rinsing. If
it gets a little sour, make a little more into  it or put as much water with it
as there is cider and put it with the  vinegar. If it is desired to bottle this
cider by manufacturers of small  drinks, you will proceed as follows: put in a
barrel 5 gallons of hot  water, 30 lbs. of brown sugar, 3/4 lb. of tartaric
acid, 25 gallons of  cold water, 3 pints of hop or brewer's yeast, work into
paste with 3/4 lb.  of flower, and one pint water will be required in making
this paste; put  all together in a barrel which it will fill and let it work 24
hours, the  yeast running out at the bung all the time by putting in a little
occasionally to keep it full; then bottle, putting in two or three broken
raisins to each bottle, and it will nearly equal champagne.


Spruce or Aromatic Beer

Take 3 gallons of water, 2 1/2 pints molasses, 3 eggs well beaten, 1 gill
yeast, put into two quarts of the water boiling hot, put in 50 drops of  any oil
you wish the flavour of, or mix one ounce each, oil sarsafras, spruce, and
wintergreen; then use the 50 drops. For ginger flavour take 2  ounces ginger
root bruised and a few hops, and boil for 30 minutes in one  gallon of the
water, strain and mix all; let it stand 2 hours and bottle, using yeast, of
course, as before.


Lemon Beer

To make 20 gallons, boil 6 ounces of ginger root bruised, 1/4 lb.  cream-tartar
for 20 or 30 minutes in 2 or 3 gallons of water; this will be  strained into 13
lbs. of coffer sugar on which you have put 1 oz. oil of  lemon and six good
lemons all squeezed up together, having warm water  enough to make the whole 20
gallons, just so you can hold your hand in it  without burning, or some 70
degrees of heat; put in 1 1/2 pint hops or  brewer's yeast worked into paste as
for cider, with 5 or 6 oz. of flower;  let it work over night, then strain and
bottle for use. This will keep a  number of days.


Philadelphia Beer                          

Take 30 gallons of water, brown sugar 20 lbs., ginger root bruised 1/4  lb.,
cream tartar 1 1/4 lb., carbonate of soda 3 ounces, oil of lemon 1  teaspoonful,
put in a little alcohol, the white of 10 eggs well beaten,  hops 2 ounces, yeast
one quart. The ginger root and hops should be boiled  for 20 or 30 minutes in
enough of the water to make all milk warm; then  strain into the rest, and the
yeast added and allowed to work itself clear  as the cider and bottled.


A Superior Ginger Beer

Take of sugar 10 lbs., lemon juice 9 oz., honey 1/2 lb., bruised ginger  root 11
oz., water 9 galls., yeast 3 pints, boil the ginger in the water  until the
strength is all extracted, which you may tell be tasting the  root, then pour it
into a tub, throwing the roots away, let it stand until  nearly luke warm, then
put in all the rest of the ingredients, stir well  until all dissolved, cover it
over with a cloth, and if it be in the  evening, let it remain until next
morning, then strain through cloth, and  bottle it, and in a short time it will
be fit for use. Some use less  sugar, and some less lemon juice, to make it with
less expense; but it is  not so elegant a drink as this.


Ginger Pop No. 1

Take of water 5 1/2 galls., ginger root bruised 3/4 lb., tartaric acid 1/2  oz.,
white sugar 2 1/4 lbs., the whites of 3 eggs well beat, a small  teaspoonful of
oil of lemon, yeast 1 gill; boil the root for 30 minutes in  1 gallon of the
water, strain off, and put the oil in while hot, mix all  well, make over night,
in the morning skim, and bottle, keeping out  sediment.


Ginger Pop No. 2

Take best white Jamaica ginger root bruised 2 oz., water 6 quarts, boil 20
minutes and strain, then add cream tartar 1 oz., white sugar 1 lb.; put on  the
fire, then stir until all the sugar is dissolved; then put into an  earthen jar,
now put in tartaric acid 1/4 oz., and the rind of 1 lemon,  let it stand until
70 degrees of Fahrenheit, or until you can bear your  hand in it with comfort,
then add two tablespoonsful of yeast, stir well,  bottle for use, and tie the
corks; make a few days before it is wanted for  use.


Improved English Strong Beer

If you have malt use it, if not, take 1 peck of barley, and put it into a  stove
oven, and steam the moisture from them, grind coarsely, and pour  into them 3
1/2 gallons of water, at 170 or 172 degrees. (If you use malt  it does not need
quite so much water, as it does not absorb so much as the  other. The tub should
have a false bottom with many gimblet holes to keep  back the grain.) Stir them
well and let stand 3 hours and draw off, put on  7 gallons more water at 180 or
182 degrees, stir well, let stand 2 hours  and draw off, then put 1 gallon or 2
of cold water, stir well and draw  off; you should have about 5 or 6 gallons;
mix 6 lbs., coarse brown sugar  in equal amount of water, add 4 oz. of good
hops, boil for 1 1/2 hour; you  should have from 8 to 10 gallons when boiled;
when cooled to 80 degrees,  put in a teacupful of good yeast and let it work 18
hours covered with a  sack. Use sound iron-hooped kegs, or porter bottles, bung
or cork tight,  and in two weeks it will be good sound beer, nearly equal in
strength to  London porter, or good ale, and will keep a long time.


Hop Beer

Take of hops 6 oz., molasses 5 quarts, boil the hops in water till the  strength
is out, strain them into a 30 gallon barrel, add the molasses and  a teacupful
of yeast, and fill up with water, shake it well and leave the  bung out until
fermented, which will be in about 24 hours; bung up, and it  will be fit for use
in about 3 days. A most excellent summer drink,  smaller quantities in
proportion.


Happy historical experimentation! And, oh yes, Bula!

John H. Grant
74444.3034 at compuserve.com


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Date: 30 Nov 94 20:44:01 EST
From: Don Rudolph <76076.612 at compuserve.com>
Subject: SA Clone, FOOP


Geez, the last few HBD issues have been GREAT with lots of interesting
threads.  I'd like to join in the fray if I may.

- -----------------

Jack Skeels says he's ashamed to ask for a SA clone recipe.  I'm not.
Send them on to me!  I like the beer.

- -----------------

FOOP debate rages on, great stuff.  Domenick, my (cloudy) understanding
of protein chemistry is that denaturing can be a permanent condition.
For example, if an alpha helix of a protein is denatured, the H-bonds
that hold the baby together fall apart.  As long as the concentration of
proteins is not too high, the alpha helix will spontaneously revert to
its original shape when the conditions (pH, temp) permit.  But if H-bonds
are formed with nearby amino acids from other polypeptides or from other
parts of itself, the protein will be a tangled mess.  The reason protein
structures are so orderly and neat is the way are synthesized, polymer-
ized, and packaged by other enzymes .. and I'd venture to say that they
are easily messed up.  I mean try to get a fried egg to revert to good
ol' runny albumin.  Can't do it.

Anyway, I vote for the possibility of permanent denaturation of heading
proteins in beer.

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
76076.612 at CompuServe.COM

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Date: 30 Nov 94 20:43:58 EST
From: Don Rudolph <76076.612 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Kolsch, Allergy Brew


Mark Strickler asks for a Kolsch recipe.  I happen to have my log book
at work so I could send a recipe to brother Kyle Roberson, and it happens
to have a Kolsch recipe that turned out OK.  Want it?  OK here it is:

	7.5 lb	Belgian Pils Malt
	1   lb 	Wheat Malt
	.25 lb 	40L Crystal

	1.5 oz	Tettnanger (aa = 5.5%)	60 min
	.25 oz	Tettnanger		20 min
	.25 oz	Saaz       (aa = 2.8%)	20 min
	.25 oz	Tettnanger		 5 min
	.25 oz	Saaz                     5 min
	
	1  tsp	Irish Moss
	1.5q	Wyeast Kolsch yeast starter
	
	Original Gravity	1.045
	Terminal Gravity	1.008
	Bitterness		~25 IBU
	Color			~4 L
	
	Rest 25 min  at  135F, 25 min  at  145F, 60 min  at  155F.
	
Entered in local competition, 2nd Place, 33 points average.  Most
negative comments were on DMS and astringency which relate to poor
technique but not recipe formulation.  The yeast flocculated very
poorly, I had to filter.  But some I did not filter did clear after
cold lagering.  This beer should be fermented at relatively low temps
and lagered COLD.  Came out with subdued fruitiness, medium body, and dry
crisp finish.  Good luck!

- ------------------

Allergy challenge ... sounds fun.  You know, trying to make beer without
barley/wheat/rye.  Why not malt the corn (and rice??) and try to brew
with that.  Didn't we read this in a Zymurgy issue a while back?  Anyone
remember which issue?  How about corn and rice with amylase and/or koji?

- -----------------
	
BTW, if you haven't, try Anchor's Holiday brew.  It's great.

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
76076.612 at CompuServe.COM

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 19:51:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Lee Bussy <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject: Iodophor

There had been alot of talk in the past about Iodophoer, what it is, and 
how to use it.  My brewing partner is an area manager for Ecolab 
Institutional Products Division who market Mikroclene (R) an iodine based 
sanitizer which for all intents and purposes (ours anyway) is identical 
to Iodophor.

Here are the directions he had:
- --------------------------------------------------------
DIRECTIONS FOR FOOD CONTACT SERVICE AREAS
To sanitize food preparation equipment, dishware, floors, walls, 
furniture, porcelain, basins and metals;

Use 1/2 oz MIKROKLENE per 2-1/2 gals of 75-100 F water for sanitizing 
(provides 25 ppm titratable Iodine).  Higher temperatures can cause a 
staining problem to surrounding wall areas.  No rinsing necessary.  Use 
daily to sanitize dishmachines and other equipment.  Renew solution 
before amber color disappears.

SANITIZING EATING AND DRINKING UTENSILS
1.  Scrape and preflush utensils to remove excess soil.
2.  Wash in a solution of 1/2 oz MIKROKLENE to 2-1/2 gals water (25 ppm 
tit I) or other recommended detergent.
3.  Rinse in clean water.
4.  Sanitize in a solution of 1/4 oz MIKROKLENE to 2-1/2 gals water (12 
ppm tit I).  Immerse all utensils for at least one minute.
5.  Drain and air dry.

When used as directed, MIKROKLENE complies with FDA Food Additive Reg. 21 
CFR 178.1010 (b) (4) for sanitizing solutions which are not to be rinsed 
from food contact surfaces.

DILUTION TABLE

ppm titratable iodine            12.5   25     50       75     100
oz MIKROKLENE per 2.5 gals water  .25   .5      1      1.5       2

note: 1 oz = 2 Tablespoonfuls or 6 teaspoonfuls

- ---------------------------------------------
end of clipping

Sorry about the major bandwidth use but this is the word according to the 
manufacturers and many people have been asking/suggesting.


 -Lee Bussy
 leeb at southwind.net
 Wichita, Kansas




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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 21:31:02 -0500
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: RIMS Temp control

     Has anybody tried adapting a R. Morris type temp. controller to operate
either as an I/O card in a PC or thru a serial/parallel port on a PC?  Also,
I would like to add a temp readout on the monitor.  I am adept at putting
things together and weak on programming and engineering.  I can't think of
any reason this type of thing couldn't work, but I don't have any clue how to
go about it.
   I would assume the simplest way waould be to replace the Pot with a
circuit driven thru one of the ports.
    Any help would be appreciated, if some of you engineer types and
programmer types have some ideas we should go to E-mail I suppose.
    Oh, yeah did I mention CHEAP!?
TIA
Don
Falls Church, Va.
donbrew at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 22:16:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Lee Bussy <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject: Wichita Homebrew Competition

I'm organizing the Second Annual Greater Wichita Homebrew Competition to 
be held on March 25th, 1995.  This will be HWTBA recognized.

All classes of Beer, Mead and Ciders will be accepted.  For info please 
send me e-mail.

I am also looking for a speaker or two so if there are any professional 
brewers out there, biologists, chemists, etc that would like to attend. 
please let me know.  We would be glad to have you.

Last year's competition brought 140+ entries and we are shooting for the 
magical 150 mark so MAKE ME WORK!!  Enter this contest!


 -Lee Bussy
 leeb at southwind.net
 Wichita, Kansas



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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 20:35:31 +0800
From: bjones at bdt.com (Bob Jones)
Subject: Long aerations

I hear you people talk of long aerations. Well when I used to ferment in 5
gal carboys and aerated for more than a few minutes, I got foam out the top
of the carboy like ice cream. I would have to shut the O2 off and wait for
quit a while before turning on again. I finally started injecting the O2 in
line on the wort traveling to the carboy. This helps until the liquid level
rises close to the top. I now ferment in a 15 gal sanke and all this isn't a
problem since I have about 4 gals of head space.

So how do you guys & gals aerate for long periods if you use a 5 gal carboy?

Bob Jones
bjones at bdt.com



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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 10:28:02 +0200 (EET)
From: Ilkka Sysila <isysila at clinet.fi>
Subject: wort aeration

There is no need to repeat those biotechnical facts in regrd to
yeast metabolism, that render proper wort aeration *absolutely*
necessary, to say compulsory. The higher the gravity, the more
compulsory it is!

Aerating is dissolving oxygen into *cooled* wort at fermentation
temperature (not oxidizing). At my homebrewery I have used the
surest, purest and incontrovertibly fastest way: Pure clinical
oxygen (in 5 litre pressurized containers) which I introduce into
the wort sitting in carbuoy *through 0,2 micron membrane filter,
which no known contaminant penetrates*. This is the sure and safe
way of dissolving oxygen, and is widely used by brewin laboratories
having same scale as we homebrewers have. My mashing & boiling
capacity is max. 60 Litres (abt. 16 US Gallons).

All the very best and Malty Christmas to all

Ilkka Sysila from Helsinki, Finland

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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 04:48:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Inverted Carboy? 

> From: "Dave Ebert" <DNE at Data.HSC.Colorado.edu>
> Subject:       Fermetap
> 
> I was recently in a local brew shop and saw a device called 
> "FERMETAP" (I think that's correct!)  It is a nice little stand and 
> valve assembly that will comfortably hold an inverted 6.5 gal carboy. 
> If I remember correctly it sells for $26.95 and there is a toll free 
> number you can call to place orders.  If anybody has the toll free 
> number and/or can share their experience with this device please let 
> me know.  Email is fine.  Thanks.

Ok, now what im getting from this is, invert carboy, tap and drink.
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
I dont know about the rest of you, but the LAST thing in the world I 
would want to do is INVERT my carboy after fermentation.  The first few 
glasses of that stuff would look like MUD and taste like it too!

Ok, you invert the secondary, or rack to a clean carboy. How do you 
carbonate it?  I wouldnt think that it would be smart to prime and 
presureize a glass carboy.  And where are you going to stuff it?  I know 
MY fridge wont hold it.  My beer fridge might not even hold it.

To me, this looks like a marketing gimick...  I think the $26 would be 
better spent on a used Keg and parts for it.

Rob


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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 05:51:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Smoking Grains

Smoking Grains! Not Smoking Guns! Wipe your monitor off so you can READ it...

Ok, im curious if anyone has tried making a smoked beer.  Ive got a ton 
of mesquite (sp?) wood chips left over from grilling all summer.  Im 
curious how a dark beer, dark amber beer (not a stout), would be smoked.  
I dont want something overly bitter, im looking for something very 
smooth, that would compliment the smoke flavor, not confuse it.  I dont 
want something overly hoppy that is competeing with the smoke flavor.  I 
want the smoke flavor to show through.  

1. How do I smoke the grains.  I dont have a smoker, but I have a webber 
grill.  Would like a low heat on the webber, with the grains on a cookie 
sheet do it?  Do I have to get the grains moist?  I have no clue as to 
how to smoke them.

2. What grains would be good to smoke?  Rye? Barley? Malts?

3. I currently dont have a grain mill, can I smoke the precracked grains?

4. Just how much grain am I going to have to smoke? 

5. Would running hot wort through the woodchips lend the right flavor?  I 
could just run the sparge water through the woodchips, would act like a 
sort of filter.  I think it would also be slow enough to extract the 
flavor from the woodchips.  Anyone try this? (Beachwood? AB?)

I kind of want to stay away from "Liquid Smoke", as this would lend the 
right flavor, I think its not what im shooting for.  Id prefer a natural 
process over liquid smoke.

Rob


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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 08:13:18 -0500
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: CP bottling and cold hopping


>Subject: CBF foaming

>I just tried a counterpressure bottle filler for the first time, and had
>foaming problems.  I couldn't get the bottles more than 3/4 full, and
>foam began the minute beer flowed into the bottle.


>I chilled both the bottles and the CBF in the fridge with the keg.
>What's the trick to make this gizmo work?

I have had great sucess with CP fillers. Before filling a bottle it should be
pressurized
to equal the pressure of the keg. The keg and the filler should have the same
CO2
source. When the beer inlet valve is opened very little if any should flow
into the bottle.
To make it flow, some of the counterpressure must be released. As little of a
pressure
difference as possible while still alowing beer to flow will keep it from
foaming. When
the bottle is full, stop the beer flow and then bleed off the excess
pressure. If you have a
pressure gauge on outlet side of the CP filler it will make things faster. It
will take about
one minute to fill a bottle. With practice it will get faster. Also the be
certain that the beer
that you are  tring to bottle is not over carbonated. If it is over 3.0
volumes it will be very
difficult.

Also I noticed a post about hopping rates and the effect of temperature on
hop isomeri-
zation. It was mentioned that supposedly only heat is a factor in these
reactions.
However I have observed situations which would indicate that factors other
than boiling
alone can be effecting hop reactions.

micah millspaw  -  brewer at large

- ------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 08:23:04 EST
From: u2rg9red at hanover-crrel.army.mil (ROBERT E DAVIS )
Subject: foam


Grettings to all in HBDland,

I sent a friend of mine parts from the HBD discussion on foam for his
input.  He is a molecular physicist, working as a post doc in the
Chemistry Department at Dartmouth input.  He is quite a fan of my home
brew, and a knowledgable guy to boot.

His comments regarding the foam/protein discussion:

 All very interesting stuff, though the info in these notes
is a little confused.

  OK proteins are indeed long chain molecules made up of amino acids.  In
their so called "native conformation" they are folded up into a well defined
compact globular structure (generally with the hydrophobic amino acid
residues buried in the core and the hydrophilic ones out on the surface).
Most proteins are easily denatured by mechanical agitation, changes in pH, or
changes in temperature.  A denatured protein takes up a so called "random
coil" conformation.  The formation of foams from denatured proteins is indeed
due to the interplay between the hydro-phobic/philic units.  If there is some
reasonable segregation along the backbone of such units then the denatured
protein can act as a surfactant (such as a common soap).  Surfactants migrate
to the air/water interface and their presence dramatically reduces the
surface tension of this interface allowing the ready formation of bubbles and
foams (which have a SL of surface area).

  Now, the problem w/ denaturation vs. time.  Contrary to what is stated in
the discussion, MOST proteins DO NOT return to their native conformation after
being denatured.  OK, you might not think this is a problem since if they are
in solution, whether denatured or not, they can still act as surfactants and
create foams, right?  NO, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!.  Proteins in their
native conformation are wicked stable as a function of time (assuming you
don't perturb the solution so as to cause denaturation).  Denatured proteins,
on the other hand, do not fare so well.  They have a problem of AGGREGATING
with each other in solution (i.e. they tend to stick together).  When this
happens on a large scale you get what is known as FLOCCULATION - a very
"wispy" type of precipitation.  Anyway, once the proteins aggregate,  whether
they stay in solution or precipitate out, they will no longer display the
surfactant type behavior necessary for producing foams.

  So the simply stated conclusion is that yes you do in a sense "use up" the
proteins in the foam formation since once denatured they won't remain in a
nice unaggregated form for a very long period of time and once they aggregate
they're out of commission as far as foam formation is concerned.

  Re the guys comments about polystyrene (PS).  The backbone bond in PS is
made of C-C bonds of course while in proteins you have both C-C bonds and
amide (N-C) bonds.  Anyway you're not likely to "break" proteins by shaking
the solution, you'd need a lot more shear than that.  Of course PS does not
fold up like a biological protein, its normal conformation resembles a
denatured protein (i.e.. random coil).

  One other point that's relevant.  In your beer wort and what not you
have a lot of stuff floating around from the live "bugs".  When you
kill these bugs or as they die their cell membranes will lyse (break open)
releasing all the stuff inside which will include a lot of protealytic (sp?)
enzymes - these are proteins which chew up other proteins, so you might get
protein degradation just due to the presence of these protealytic dudes.
This would be a degradation that is to some extent constant in time.

********************

Bert Davis
Cold Regions Lab
Hanover, NH

Just a dorky ol' Xtract brewer tryin to keep his head...


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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 08:39:28 EST
From: Chris Lyons <Chris.Lyons at analog.com>
Subject: kids & beer ...

>As far as drinking it, ive found that kids dont like beer till much later 
>in life, the 5 year old cant stand the smell of beer.  The 2 year old 
>asks for Beers all the time, but once he smells it says "Icky" and wont 
>touch it.  Id be more worried about a mess than toddlers tee todleing on 
>their own.

My experience is completely opposite.  I find that kids (even two
year olds) enjoy the taste of beer.

Regards,
Chris

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Date:           Thu, 1 Dec 94 8:45 EST
From: Jim_Merrill at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        PH Meters

I hope to get a digital PH meter for X-Mas this year. The only one
I know of is the "Checker" from American BrewMaster which is advertised in
Zymurgy.

I'd like to get some feedback on how well it works or from people who
use a different meter. What are the benefits, weaknesses, is it temp
sensitive, etc....

I'll summarize the responses to HBD.

TIA,

Jim Merrill         Jim_Merrill at VOS.Stratus.Com

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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:09:30 -0500
From: gwk at world.std.com (Greg Kushmerek)
Subject: The Modern Brewer


Steve Stroud made a point about The Modern Brewer in Cambridge, MA,
and the Glatt Mill.  That brought back a memory of my own.

A few  months back -- possibly in the summer, I was talking with
the people at that store too.  I noticed that they had replaced their
JSP Maltmill (tm) with a stainless steel Glatt.  So I asked them about
it.

They said that the Maltmill wasn't working very well for them.  The
words 'slow' and 'unreliable' came up and they found the new stainless
steel Glatt Mill to be superior in production and quality.

Now it's very possible that they had a bad mill, and I don't know not
having owned or used a Maltmill.  However, it's gone and they replaced
it with a Glatt -- and it's been there ever since.

FWIW,

- --gk

- -- 
Greg Kushmerek
gwk at world.std.com

(alter-ego in trunk)
 

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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:29:44 -0500
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: flavor wheel

One thing that I've seen mentioned in Zymurgy and one or two other places,
but not on the HBD, is the 'flavor wheel'.
Whats the deal with the flavor wheel?
Does it have any practical use? etc. etc.
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com>

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1594, 12/02/94