FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Combining Yeasts (Paul Baker)
  pH meter again (Diane S. Put)
  Legal in Mexico?? (Caleb Slater)
  Zymurgy Mill Artical ("Dan Listermann, Cinci ")
  sanitation (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  aka Sam Adams (Jim Larsen)
  DC AREA Suppliers (John Thrower)
  Smoking Grains (Andy Riedel)
  Cloves (Pierre Jelenc)
  RE: Using Gelatin/Adding Yeast at Bottling for a Lager? (Jim Dipalma)
  Low Alcohol beer (Keith Frank)
  Cyser Help (Philip DiFalco)
  Testing for conversion (GRMarkel)
  Homebrew Catalog Number Request ("Andy....pbx 5152")
  foot in mouth disease (Steve Robinson)
  Red Dog... (Bob Bessette)
  Malt Mill / Gear drive upgrade (Hauptbrau)
  Drat! (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Coriander and Hops?? (GRMarkel)
  Curing Haze problems (MYETTE)
  Mash Temperature Control Problem (berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 13:58:00 PST
From: Paul Baker <bakerp at amhsgwy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Combining Yeasts


Jim Graham writes:

>ObBrewing:  So, how many people have had this happen....  You're all ready
>to brew some cider (on a Sunday, when the local homebrew store is closed),
>you've gotten everything finished, except for pitching the champagne yeast,
>getting out the air-lock, and putting the stuff away for a few days, when
>you realize that you forgot to buy any champagne yeast?  :-)

Well, I know what I would have done, assuming that this is fresh apple 
cider. Start
 it fermenting on it's own natural yeast just like you would normally for
making sweet cider. Rack it after a week and then pitch the champagne yeast. 
The
wild yeast used for making sweet cider often develops a more complex flavor
profile than the champagne yeasts, but, of course it finishes sweet. By 
combining
yeasts I would hope to get a hard, dry cider with a complex flavor profile. 
Now this
may sound logical, at least to me ;-), but I have never tried it. Has 
anyone?

On a related note: a few months back on RCB someone posted a raving review 
of a
barley wine they had made using ale yeast and then pitching champagne yeast 
after
the first racking. That is another yeast combination which may be worth 
exploring. If
anyone has any experience out there please speak up...

Paul Baker
Telos Corp.
bakerp at amhsgwy.jpl.nasa.gov

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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 16:55:13 PST
From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put)
Subject: pH meter again

Hello all:

I recently posted some info on pH meters, but it was in HBD1605, which 
seems to have disappeared into the cyberspace version of the Bermuda 
Triangle.  Rob just informed me it is now at Sierra.  Thanks, Rob.  
Anyway, I just got the new Cole-Parmer (800.323.4340) catalog, and 
there's a deal when you order a BNC pH meter and an electode.  Actually, 
it's a kit that includes:

"pH Testr BNC kits contain everything you need to start testing today!
Both kits come with pH Testr BNC plus your choice of 9- or 12-mm diameter
electrode with BNC connector.  Kits also include ten each of pH 4 and 7
buffer tablets, three buffer vessels, an instruction manual, and a 
carrying case."

Part #s:
H-59000-66 pH Testr BNC kit with 9-mm electrode......$96.50
H-59000-68 pH Testr BNC kit with 12-mm electrode.....$99.50

I would also suggest that you consider buying an electrode storage bottle
(H-05990-90, $5.00) and some storage solution (H-05664-00 Storage solution,
1 pint, $9.75).  

This is basically the setup I use, after trying a couple of meters without
replacable electrodes, and I'm very happy with it.  The info originally came
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>, a chemist by trade.
 
Happy holidays to one and all.  Also, I'm just about ready to keg  
my holiday ale (Nuclear Winter Holiday Cheer--a blast in every bottle) 
that has been aging since September in my basement cooler.  It's based
on an oatmeal stout, but takes off on a severe tangent from there.  And 
thanks for all the informative posts, yes, and the entertaining flames as
well, throughout the year.

don (still hiding behind his wife's moniker)
diput at eis.calstate.edu

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 18:42:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Caleb Slater <slaterc at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: Legal in Mexico??

Hello all. A question for all you international lawers out there.  I have 
a friend from Mexico who has started brewing while at school here in the 
US.  Now he will soon be going home and wants to know if he should take 
his brewing equipment with him or sell it along with other usless stuff 
in his moving sale.  
	He says his mom used to brew a pretty mean pineapple cider, but 
since he thinks he would have to import ingredients for real beer he wants 
to know if it's legal.  Also, how will NAFTA effect the import/export of 
these brewing supplies:)
thanks
Caleb Slater
Corvallis, Oregon

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Date: 19 Dec 94 21:49:40 EST
From: "Dan Listermann, Cinci " <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Zymurgy Mill Artical

I was a little perplexed to read Jack Schmidling's posting on HBD 1607.   I was
given a copy of the unedited text of the artical to review this past summer.  I
had believed that Jack recieved the same copy.  The copy seemed to be very "raw"
as there were many grammatical errors and a redundant sentence.  I even doubt
that the editors had a chance to look at it closly.  

Jack's quoting of the opening lines of the sections regarding the Glatt Mill and
the Philmill were exactly as printed on the text that I was given.  However the
opening line of the section describing the Maltmill was very different.  

Jack quotes it as " The Maltmill is mostly constructed of fiber board and weighs
approximatly 16 pounds."

The unedited copy that I recieved begins that section with "The 1993 Jack
Schmidling Productions Maltmill adjustable mill (serial number 1011,
non-adjustable mill serial number 1013) has a fiberboard base and input chute
and weighs about 16 pounds.  The hopper measures 8 1/2 inches wide by nine
inches long by four inches in diameter with a capacity of about three pounds of
malt. The roller assembly consists of two cold-rolled steel rollers mounted in
oil-impregnated bronze bearings in a chassis with one-half inch thick aluminum
end plates and measures 3 1/2 inches wide by 11 inches long by three inches in
diameter."

I don't know how they were using the term "diameter" (I think they meant
height).

Reading Jack's recent posting causes me to question a number of things.

If Jack would be so kind as to fax me ( 513-351-0610) a copy of the text he
quotes, it could go a long way toward explaining his deep feelings of
frustration with the Zymurgy artical.

Dan Listermann



  


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Date: 20 Dec 94 04:21:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: sanitation

I'd like to add one more sanitizing agent to Michael's list:

One-Step.  It's distributed by L.D.Carlson and is similar in makeup and
action to B-Brite.  Basically, it is Sodium Percarbonate.

Well, perhaps I'll add one more agent, but I'm hesitant to mention it
because I'm not a strong supporter of it as a sanitizing agent: alcohol.
The reason I'm not fond of alcohol as a sanitizer is because it requires
a rather long contact time (15 minutes, if memory serves correctly), poses
a fire hazard, and is far more expensive than the other sanitizers mentioned
in terms of price per ounce of working solution.

Other than that, I thought that the post was quite good.  I think that
putting all the sanitizers into a table with contact times and proper
working concentrations would be a good idea.  For Iodophor, the recomended
concentration is one that provides 12.5 ppm of free iodine (see bottle
label for the proper dilution).  For Bleach, 1 tablespoon of *fresh* bleach 
per gallon of cool water gives about 200 ppm.  As the bleach gets older, its
strength declines.  Test papers are available for both Iodine and Chlorine
concentrations.  200 ppm is the recomended working concentration of chlorine
bleach.  Both B-Brite and One-Step recommend 1 tablespoon of the powder to
a gallon of water.  Regarding alcohol, I believe that something like 70%
alcohol in water is more effective a sanitizer than 100% alcohol, but I could
be wrong -- I'm not a big fan of it as I've mentioned before.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 07:02:52 -0600 (CST)
From: jal at gonix.gonix.com (Jim Larsen)
Subject: aka Sam Adams


Steve (STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com) noted the 
Boston(tm)Beer(tm)Company(tm() is now brewing in Oregon under an alias. 
According to the the Midwest Beer Notes (All the Brews That's Fit to 
Print), the BBC has struck a deal with Saxer (aka Liberty) brewing in 
Lake Oswego, OR, to "rent excess brewing time in Saxer's expanded 
facility." Thus the Oregon Ale and Beer Company was formed. OABC shall 
brew "North-west (sic) styles of beers" as opposed to the BBC's "classic 
German beers" (triple bock, honey ale?).

The first three styles are: IPA, ESB, and nut brown ale. The beers are 
currently available in Portland, Denver, Minneapolis, San Jose, San 
Diego, and Boston. Distribution is to expand in 1995.



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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:41:51 -0500 (EST)
From: John Thrower <JThrower at RDC.NOAA.GOV>
Subject: DC AREA Suppliers

Hey,
 Thank you all for the offers of support of supplying me with yeast for the 
weekend and also the herebefore unknown supply shop in Vienna VA.

DC AREA supply shops summary

Brewmasters - 13266 Wilkins Ave., Rockville    301-984-9557
	- My SO's personal favorite 

Aspen Hill Wine & Beer - 13445  CT Ave., Wheaton  301-460-3300
	- Been there, more of a B&W specialty shop - do'll in a pinch

Brew America - Vienna, Va - 
	- Competition is good - never been but soon will
         
Annapolis - rumors of a beer shop ( or is that a VW repair shop)

Any ways thanks again, and wouldn't you know it my gateway appeared to be 
down because I did not receive any mails from the outside from Saturday until 
today on Tuesday, when I received the last couple of days'.  My alternative 
amusement was going to Hammerjack's in Baltimore (1st time) to see Helmut, 
Unsane and Stompbox.  
                                   
PS - Do any of the brewing clubs operate or employ a co-operative for 
purchasing supplies.  Me thinks since some folks get together once a month or 
so, it would be a good opportunity to operate a purchasing co-op.  I've seen 
the thought mentioned once or twice, I am not aware of if anyone has made a 
go of it.

John Thrower  JThrower at RDC.NOAA.GOV


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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 09:02:29 -0700
From: riedel at threshold.com (Andy Riedel)
Subject: Smoking Grains

Early in December Robert Mech requested info on smoked beer.

I have tried this and am currently enjoying the fruits of my labor.  The
base recipe was from Papazian with slight variations in the amount of
grains.  I chose to smoke 1.5 lbs. of cyrstal malt on an electric smoker.

I would suggest using a screen or tin foil with holes rather than a cookie
sheet to get the smoke flavor throughout the grains.  Also, smoke the
grains first and then crack them.

Papazian suggests to soak the grains in water for 5 minutes which I did.
If I do this again, I wouldn't soak the grains as they were on the smoker
for three hours and I still had to dry them in the oven.

When I smpled the wort, my only thought was I hope this stuff mellows in
the bottle.  The smoke flavor was over-whelming.  I am happy to say that
after about three weeks, I made a very drinkable amber smoked ale.

Andy



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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 11:51:29 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Cloves

In HBD #1609, Al (korz at iepubj.att.com) asks:

> Not quite eugenol... I believe that eugenol is a trade name for oil of
> clove or somehow related.  What you probably created was either some
> kind of phenol, maybe 4-vinyl-guaiacol (which is what gives Bavarian
> Weizens their characteristic clovey flavour).  Could it be a phenyl
> alcohol? Does that have a phenolic flavour? I'm not sure.  Anybody?

Eugenol is 4-allylguaiacol; the only difference with 4-vinylguaiacol is 
one extra CH2 between the aromatic ring and the vinyl group. Guaiacol is 
2-methoxyphenol.

Incidentally, vanillin is guaiacolaldehyde (3-methoxy-4-hydroxy-
 -benzaldehyde), obtained easily by the controlled oxidation of eugenol or
vinylguaiacol. 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 12:14:07 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Using Gelatin/Adding Yeast at Bottling for a Lager?



   Hi All,

In HBD#1609, Jim Herter writes:

>I've got a Pilsener that's nearing the completion of the initial
>fermentation stage. I plan on adding gelatin to the secondary fermentation
>cycle to aid in clearing.

>What I didn't like was slimy mass of sediment in the
>bottles.

Next time, try adding the gelatin to secondary 2-3 days before bottling,
then chill the beer. I've found that this causes the gelatin to settle out
completely, forming a dense layer on the bottom of the carboy. I can then
just rack carefully and leave it behind.

>My question is; If I use gelatin at this point (in the secondary fermentor)
>does it pull any active yeast cells to the bottom ultimately affecting the
>conditioning when I do bottle the beer? 

Yes, gelatin is quite effective at settling out yeast, in fact, that's
the only reason I use it. I like using Wyeast 1098 British Ale yeast for
IPAs.  This strain is fairly attenuative, and produces a nice ester profile
even when fermented at moderate (low to mid 60s) temperatures. However, it 
stubbornly refuses to settle out after fermentation is complete. What I've
heard about this yeast is that it's a true top fermenting strain, that
it's typically used in open fermenters and top cropped. The poor flocculation
I experience with this yeast is a result of closed fermentation. In any event,
adding gelatin and chilling for a couple of days drops the yeast right out.

It may not be desirable to fine at the start of secondary fermentation. If
too much yeast is removed from suspension at this stage, the result will
likely be elevated levels of diacetyl. Since you are planning to lager in a
35F fridge, you may find that the extended cold lagering will give you
good clarity without fining. If not, you can always fine at the end of
secondary fermentation.

>One book I was referencing said it
>was advisable to add a half pack of yeast before siphoning the lagered beer
>into the conditioning bucket (irrespective of gelatin use). Is this
>advisable? Necessary?

It depends on how long a period you plan to lager. I've had good success
simply priming with corn sugar for pilsners that I'd lagered for only 6 weeks
or so. This was using the Wyeast 2124 Bohemian, other strains I've used
(2308 Munich, 2206 Bavarian) threw a lot more hydrogen sulfide in the early
stages of primary and required longer lagering periods. In these cases, I've
read that it's best to either krausen the beer, or add fresh yeast at
bottling time. It has more to do with the condition of the yeast after
extended lagering than low cell count from fining. Personally, I got a
kegging setup shortly after switching to liquid yeast, so I kind of avoided
the whole issue. I lager in corny kegs, and allow the beer to carbonate
naturally.

>Should I use a powdered lager yeast?

I wouldn't.

           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 12:30:31 -0600
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Low Alcohol beer

****************  from Bruce DeBolt  *******************

The results on the ethanol analysis are in. 

I went back into the kitchen and reproduced the same procedure used at 
Thanksgiving to make what I thought was reduced alcohol beer.  Poured 
about 10 oz. of homebrew (American Pale Ale style) into a 2 qt. pot and 
stirred more or less contiuously at 175-180F for the times indicated below.   

Samples were analyzed by gas chromatography using ethanol in water 
standards to make a calibration curve.  I don't recommend taking the 
weight% ethanol numbers as absolutely correct, but the trend of lower 
alcohol vs. time is very clear. 

        COMMENTS      MINUTES    VOLUME LOSS     WT.% ETHANOL

        Base beer       0           0              6.1

        1st sample      10         19%             1.2
   ------------------------------------------------------------
                WITHDREW SAMPLE FROM THE POT
   ------------------------------------------------------------
        2nd sample      20         37%+*            0.1

*Started with 320 ml, lost 60 ml at 10 min.  Withdrew 110 ml for sample, 
left with 150 ml.  After heating this 10 more min. (20 min. total) lost an 
additional 55 ml.  

Two points in this procedure I think helped reduce the ethanol content more 
than what I've read in some recent posts:
 - High surface area to volme ratio with only 320 ml in a 2 quart pot
 - Continuous stirring

Conclusions:
 - This procedure will reduce alcohol content in beer
 - There is a significant volume reduction
 - Color increases over time

I didn't taste these to conserve sample size, so can't comment on that.  The 
10 min. sample was made exactly the way I did it at Thanksgiving, and as I 
mentioned in an earlier post it tasted similar to non-alcoholic beers on 
the market but with more malt flavor and hop bitterness.  My understanding 
is that 0.5% alcohol is considered the limit to claim a non-alcoholic 
beverage. 
 
Someone in the HBD sent me a note about a Vinometer (the post is at home) 
which is a capillary tube of some sort to determine alcohol content in wine.  
Their local retailer said it should work on flat beer.  I've checked with 
two retailers here and both say it won't work with beer due to the 
differences in composition.  I doubt I'll get a chance to check it out 
since these shops aren't close to home.  Maybe someone else can try it.  
Vinometers are cheap ($6-7) and if they did work would be a quick and easy 
way to check ethanol content.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On another note Sierra Nevada has a promotional brochure which lists the 
bittering and aromatic hops used in all their beers.  I was going to 
summarize this in brief tabular form for our club newsletter, if of 
interest I will post to the digest.

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 12:34:28 -0500
From: Philip DiFalco <sxupjd at fnma.COM>
Subject: Cyser Help


I'm 2 months into the process of making a 3 gallons of cyser.
I racked it to a tertiary vessel two nights ago.
To eliminate head space in the tertiary, I added some unfermented apple cider.
I thought the cider I added was 100% cider, but it turns out that it contains
Potassium Sorbate.

Prior to racking, the cyser was somewhat opaque.
One day after racking & adding the cider (that contains potassium sorbate),
the cyser became much much clearer, with a very appreciable amount of stuff
that has fallen out of solution (and is resting on the bottom of the carboy).

Is this stuff yeast, etc.?
Did the potassium sorbate kill the remaining yeast?
Is there anything I should do to ensure my cyser is not completely ruined
(ie., bottle)? 


Thanks for any help.

- ---
Philip DiFalco, sxupjd at fnma.com
FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20016
1-202-752-2812; 1-800-SKY-FNMA (PIN#471-1735)

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 14:09:25 -0500
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: Testing for conversion

 I have been using the iodine test for conversion with mixed results. When I
> mash with Klages grain, I usually can see a change (or lack of) in color
> about 70% of the time. But when I mash with Pale Malt, I have yet to get a
> positive test for conversion. Is there another method for testing for
conversion,
> or do most of you work on blind faith (like me)???

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:28:21 EST
From: "Andy....pbx 5152" <copea at kenyon.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Catalog Number Request

Greetings to all,

I'm a new subscriber to this list.  Tonight I'll be bottling my first
batch.  It's an amber ale and I feel pretty confident about it so far,
although time will tell.

My question/problem is this.  I was given the kit and the materials for
the first recipe as a gift from a distant friend.  I live in rural
Central Ohio and I don't know of any homebrew supply stores or even
wine-making stores around here.

Are there any catalogs out there that are available?  I'm interested in
getting some numbers and perhaps having materials shipped to me
periodically.  Any numbers that people could send to my e-mail address
would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Andrew



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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 17:12:20 EST
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: foot in mouth disease


It seems that in HBD1607 I posted some out of date information regarding the
local production of Sam<tm>Adams<tm> products.  It has admittedly been some
time since I took the tour, but before posting I did double check my information
in Steve Johnson's ON TAP NEW ENGLAND.  This is a recently published (1994) 
survey of the local micro/brewpub scene.  Sometimes not even researching the
sources guarantees accuracy, eh?

Several people have also taken me to task (I won't say flamed as they've all
been extremely polite) for misidentifying baking soda as sodium hydroxide.
Baking soda is of course sodium BICARBONATE (NaCHO3).  Sodium hydroxide is
household lye and should never be used in brewing.  I knew this.  The only
explanation I can come up with for suffering such a massive brain fart is that
I read - and respond to - the digest early in the morning before the coffee
fully sinks in.

Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass.
steve.robinson at analog.com

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:29:32 EST
From: Bob Bessette <bessette at hawk.uicc.com>
Subject: Red Dog...

Fellow HBDers,
 I had the rather unpleasant experience this past weekend of trying the new 
Red Dog beer made by Anheuser Busch. Can anyone really tell me that there is 
any discernible difference between Red Dog and AB's other no-taste beverage
Budweiser? Also is there any discernible difference between Red Dog and Red 
Wolf?


Bob Bessette (all-grainer...)
bessette at uicc.com
Systems Analyst
Unitrode Integrated Circuits
Merrimack, NH 03087


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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 18:33:26 -0500
From: Hauptbrau at aol.com
Subject: Malt Mill / Gear drive upgrade

Has anyone had any problems upgrading their "o" ring driven malt mill to a
gear driven malt mill?  I have.  I would like to share my experiences.  I
bought a malt mill (great product) with the "o" ring drive.  After several
broken "o" rings, I decided to upgrade to a gear driven malt mill.  In the
upgrade, I recieved only two gears with no instructions on how to install the
gears.  The only way to install the gears was to cut off the shaft and bore
the roller to fit a new longer shaft.  The new gear was placed on the new
shaft on one side and the other gear was placed on the other roller where the
hand crank is attached.  What really upset me was that a normal person could
not upgrade their "o" ring malt mill without some exstensive machine work.  I
think this should be stressed to the homebrewers when buying an "o" ring
drive malt mill.  By the way, the gear driven malt mill works much better.

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Date: 20 Dec 94 18:56:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Drat!

Thanks to Rob Reed (and probably a couple dozen more of you) for pointing
out that I got my lowers and raises mixed up.

What I meant to say was:

Baking soda is not sodium hydroxide -- it is sodium bicarbonate and yes,
it will raise pH.  Lye is sodium hydroxide and it will raise pH A LOT.
        ^^^^^                                          ^^^^^

See what you get when you hurry?
Al.

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:59:01 -0500
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: Coriander and Hops??

In the past month I've read alot about Coriander. I've spread it around like
fairy dust in quest of the perfect beer. But the more I read, the more
confused I get. It has been used as a tea before bottling, added to the boil
and added to the mash all with the same results! Which method (if any) is the
best use of this spice?
Another question - awhile ago the question was asked about bittering hops
(high alpha) and finish hops (low alpha). If "finish" hops are used for
bittering (based on IBU's) can any benefit be gained in flavor? I've often
wondered that myself, hence watch for answers to that thread but never saw
any. Any opinions?


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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 23:03:48 -0500 (EST)
From: MYETTE at delphi.com
Subject: Curing Haze problems

Can someone tell me to difference between the different types of Beer Hazing?

Chill Haze?
&
Protein/Starch haze?

I was told and read that you can help cure chill haze by using Gelatin or
Polyclar, but how do you solve the other haze types? 

Will a longer protein rest do it? or what

Myetty at delphi.com

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 20:02:04 PST
From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com <berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Mash Temperature Control Problem

I use a 10 gallon cooler for my mash-tun.  I have a very tough time 
with temperature control.  I especially  have trouble raising the 
temperature signicantly.  Once I get it to the right temperature, it 
holds it just fine, barring variations from where I stick the 
thermometer.

Specifically, I can't add enough hot water to get it from, say, 150 
degrees to 170 for mashout.  Nor can I get it from 122 to 150.  I even 
add full boiling water!  My best results have been when I start with a 
very small amount of water and a thick mash.  Then adding hot water 
produces the greatest movement.  But once I have more water in there, 
then it becomes harder for further movement.

This is not a problem for a simple infusion mash.  But I can't 
experiment with protein rests (well I _can_ experiment, I just can't 
do it successfully), or with mash outs.

Do other people have this problem?  How do you get around it?  The 
only thing I can do is add gallons of boiling water - which leads to 
huge amounts of run off (because I find that even when I start with a 
thin mash, I still have to use the same amount of sparge water to get 
all the sugar).

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ken B
water logged in Seattle

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1610, 12/21/94