HOMEBREW Digest #1610 Wed 21 December 1994

Digest #1609 Digest #1611

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  Combining Yeasts (Paul Baker)
  pH meter again (Diane S. Put)
  Legal in Mexico?? (Caleb Slater)
  Zymurgy Mill Artical ("Dan Listermann, Cinci ")
  sanitation (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  aka Sam Adams (Jim Larsen)
  DC AREA Suppliers (John Thrower)
  Smoking Grains (Andy Riedel)
  Cloves (Pierre Jelenc)
  RE: Using Gelatin/Adding Yeast at Bottling for a Lager? (Jim Dipalma)
  Low Alcohol beer (Keith Frank)
  Cyser Help (Philip DiFalco)
  Testing for conversion (GRMarkel)
  Homebrew Catalog Number Request ("Andy....pbx 5152")
  foot in mouth disease (Steve Robinson)
  Red Dog... (Bob Bessette)
  Malt Mill / Gear drive upgrade (Hauptbrau)
  Drat! (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Coriander and Hops?? (GRMarkel)
  Curing Haze problems (MYETTE)
  Mash Temperature Control Problem (berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 13:58:00 PST From: Paul Baker <bakerp at amhsgwy.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Combining Yeasts Jim Graham writes: >ObBrewing: So, how many people have had this happen.... You're all ready >to brew some cider (on a Sunday, when the local homebrew store is closed), >you've gotten everything finished, except for pitching the champagne yeast, >getting out the air-lock, and putting the stuff away for a few days, when >you realize that you forgot to buy any champagne yeast? :-) Well, I know what I would have done, assuming that this is fresh apple cider. Start it fermenting on it's own natural yeast just like you would normally for making sweet cider. Rack it after a week and then pitch the champagne yeast. The wild yeast used for making sweet cider often develops a more complex flavor profile than the champagne yeasts, but, of course it finishes sweet. By combining yeasts I would hope to get a hard, dry cider with a complex flavor profile. Now this may sound logical, at least to me ;-), but I have never tried it. Has anyone? On a related note: a few months back on RCB someone posted a raving review of a barley wine they had made using ale yeast and then pitching champagne yeast after the first racking. That is another yeast combination which may be worth exploring. If anyone has any experience out there please speak up... Paul Baker Telos Corp. bakerp at amhsgwy.jpl.nasa.gov Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 16:55:13 PST From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put) Subject: pH meter again Hello all: I recently posted some info on pH meters, but it was in HBD1605, which seems to have disappeared into the cyberspace version of the Bermuda Triangle. Rob just informed me it is now at Sierra. Thanks, Rob. Anyway, I just got the new Cole-Parmer (800.323.4340) catalog, and there's a deal when you order a BNC pH meter and an electode. Actually, it's a kit that includes: "pH Testr BNC kits contain everything you need to start testing today! Both kits come with pH Testr BNC plus your choice of 9- or 12-mm diameter electrode with BNC connector. Kits also include ten each of pH 4 and 7 buffer tablets, three buffer vessels, an instruction manual, and a carrying case." Part #s: H-59000-66 pH Testr BNC kit with 9-mm electrode......$96.50 H-59000-68 pH Testr BNC kit with 12-mm electrode.....$99.50 I would also suggest that you consider buying an electrode storage bottle (H-05990-90, $5.00) and some storage solution (H-05664-00 Storage solution, 1 pint, $9.75). This is basically the setup I use, after trying a couple of meters without replacable electrodes, and I'm very happy with it. The info originally came From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>, a chemist by trade. Happy holidays to one and all. Also, I'm just about ready to keg my holiday ale (Nuclear Winter Holiday Cheer--a blast in every bottle) that has been aging since September in my basement cooler. It's based on an oatmeal stout, but takes off on a severe tangent from there. And thanks for all the informative posts, yes, and the entertaining flames as well, throughout the year. don (still hiding behind his wife's moniker) diput at eis.calstate.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 18:42:38 -0800 (PST) From: Caleb Slater <slaterc at ucs.orst.edu> Subject: Legal in Mexico?? Hello all. A question for all you international lawers out there. I have a friend from Mexico who has started brewing while at school here in the US. Now he will soon be going home and wants to know if he should take his brewing equipment with him or sell it along with other usless stuff in his moving sale. He says his mom used to brew a pretty mean pineapple cider, but since he thinks he would have to import ingredients for real beer he wants to know if it's legal. Also, how will NAFTA effect the import/export of these brewing supplies:) thanks Caleb Slater Corvallis, Oregon Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Dec 94 21:49:40 EST From: "Dan Listermann, Cinci " <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> Subject: Zymurgy Mill Artical I was a little perplexed to read Jack Schmidling's posting on HBD 1607. I was given a copy of the unedited text of the artical to review this past summer. I had believed that Jack recieved the same copy. The copy seemed to be very "raw" as there were many grammatical errors and a redundant sentence. I even doubt that the editors had a chance to look at it closly. Jack's quoting of the opening lines of the sections regarding the Glatt Mill and the Philmill were exactly as printed on the text that I was given. However the opening line of the section describing the Maltmill was very different. Jack quotes it as " The Maltmill is mostly constructed of fiber board and weighs approximatly 16 pounds." The unedited copy that I recieved begins that section with "The 1993 Jack Schmidling Productions Maltmill adjustable mill (serial number 1011, non-adjustable mill serial number 1013) has a fiberboard base and input chute and weighs about 16 pounds. The hopper measures 8 1/2 inches wide by nine inches long by four inches in diameter with a capacity of about three pounds of malt. The roller assembly consists of two cold-rolled steel rollers mounted in oil-impregnated bronze bearings in a chassis with one-half inch thick aluminum end plates and measures 3 1/2 inches wide by 11 inches long by three inches in diameter." I don't know how they were using the term "diameter" (I think they meant height). Reading Jack's recent posting causes me to question a number of things. If Jack would be so kind as to fax me ( 513-351-0610) a copy of the text he quotes, it could go a long way toward explaining his deep feelings of frustration with the Zymurgy artical. Dan Listermann Return to table of contents
Date: 20 Dec 94 04:21:00 GMT From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: sanitation I'd like to add one more sanitizing agent to Michael's list: One-Step. It's distributed by L.D.Carlson and is similar in makeup and action to B-Brite. Basically, it is Sodium Percarbonate. Well, perhaps I'll add one more agent, but I'm hesitant to mention it because I'm not a strong supporter of it as a sanitizing agent: alcohol. The reason I'm not fond of alcohol as a sanitizer is because it requires a rather long contact time (15 minutes, if memory serves correctly), poses a fire hazard, and is far more expensive than the other sanitizers mentioned in terms of price per ounce of working solution. Other than that, I thought that the post was quite good. I think that putting all the sanitizers into a table with contact times and proper working concentrations would be a good idea. For Iodophor, the recomended concentration is one that provides 12.5 ppm of free iodine (see bottle label for the proper dilution). For Bleach, 1 tablespoon of *fresh* bleach per gallon of cool water gives about 200 ppm. As the bleach gets older, its strength declines. Test papers are available for both Iodine and Chlorine concentrations. 200 ppm is the recomended working concentration of chlorine bleach. Both B-Brite and One-Step recommend 1 tablespoon of the powder to a gallon of water. Regarding alcohol, I believe that something like 70% alcohol in water is more effective a sanitizer than 100% alcohol, but I could be wrong -- I'm not a big fan of it as I've mentioned before. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 07:02:52 -0600 (CST) From: jal at gonix.gonix.com (Jim Larsen) Subject: aka Sam Adams Steve (STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com) noted the Boston(tm)Beer(tm)Company(tm() is now brewing in Oregon under an alias. According to the the Midwest Beer Notes (All the Brews That's Fit to Print), the BBC has struck a deal with Saxer (aka Liberty) brewing in Lake Oswego, OR, to "rent excess brewing time in Saxer's expanded facility." Thus the Oregon Ale and Beer Company was formed. OABC shall brew "North-west (sic) styles of beers" as opposed to the BBC's "classic German beers" (triple bock, honey ale?). The first three styles are: IPA, ESB, and nut brown ale. The beers are currently available in Portland, Denver, Minneapolis, San Jose, San Diego, and Boston. Distribution is to expand in 1995. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Thrower <JThrower at RDC.NOAA.GOV> Subject: DC AREA Suppliers Hey, Thank you all for the offers of support of supplying me with yeast for the weekend and also the herebefore unknown supply shop in Vienna VA. DC AREA supply shops summary Brewmasters - 13266 Wilkins Ave., Rockville 301-984-9557 - My SO's personal favorite Aspen Hill Wine & Beer - 13445 CT Ave., Wheaton 301-460-3300 - Been there, more of a B&W specialty shop - do'll in a pinch Brew America - Vienna, Va - - Competition is good - never been but soon will Annapolis - rumors of a beer shop ( or is that a VW repair shop) Any ways thanks again, and wouldn't you know it my gateway appeared to be down because I did not receive any mails from the outside from Saturday until today on Tuesday, when I received the last couple of days'. My alternative amusement was going to Hammerjack's in Baltimore (1st time) to see Helmut, Unsane and Stompbox. PS - Do any of the brewing clubs operate or employ a co-operative for purchasing supplies. Me thinks since some folks get together once a month or so, it would be a good opportunity to operate a purchasing co-op. I've seen the thought mentioned once or twice, I am not aware of if anyone has made a go of it. John Thrower JThrower at RDC.NOAA.GOV Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 09:02:29 -0700 From: riedel at threshold.com (Andy Riedel) Subject: Smoking Grains Early in December Robert Mech requested info on smoked beer. I have tried this and am currently enjoying the fruits of my labor. The base recipe was from Papazian with slight variations in the amount of grains. I chose to smoke 1.5 lbs. of cyrstal malt on an electric smoker. I would suggest using a screen or tin foil with holes rather than a cookie sheet to get the smoke flavor throughout the grains. Also, smoke the grains first and then crack them. Papazian suggests to soak the grains in water for 5 minutes which I did. If I do this again, I wouldn't soak the grains as they were on the smoker for three hours and I still had to dry them in the oven. When I smpled the wort, my only thought was I hope this stuff mellows in the bottle. The smoke flavor was over-whelming. I am happy to say that after about three weeks, I made a very drinkable amber smoked ale. Andy Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 11:51:29 EST From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu> Subject: Cloves In HBD #1609, Al (korz at iepubj.att.com) asks: > Not quite eugenol... I believe that eugenol is a trade name for oil of > clove or somehow related. What you probably created was either some > kind of phenol, maybe 4-vinyl-guaiacol (which is what gives Bavarian > Weizens their characteristic clovey flavour). Could it be a phenyl > alcohol? Does that have a phenolic flavour? I'm not sure. Anybody? Eugenol is 4-allylguaiacol; the only difference with 4-vinylguaiacol is one extra CH2 between the aromatic ring and the vinyl group. Guaiacol is 2-methoxyphenol. Incidentally, vanillin is guaiacolaldehyde (3-methoxy-4-hydroxy- -benzaldehyde), obtained easily by the controlled oxidation of eugenol or vinylguaiacol. Pierre Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 12:14:07 EST From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma) Subject: RE: Using Gelatin/Adding Yeast at Bottling for a Lager? Hi All, In HBD#1609, Jim Herter writes: >I've got a Pilsener that's nearing the completion of the initial >fermentation stage. I plan on adding gelatin to the secondary fermentation >cycle to aid in clearing. >What I didn't like was slimy mass of sediment in the >bottles. Next time, try adding the gelatin to secondary 2-3 days before bottling, then chill the beer. I've found that this causes the gelatin to settle out completely, forming a dense layer on the bottom of the carboy. I can then just rack carefully and leave it behind. >My question is; If I use gelatin at this point (in the secondary fermentor) >does it pull any active yeast cells to the bottom ultimately affecting the >conditioning when I do bottle the beer? Yes, gelatin is quite effective at settling out yeast, in fact, that's the only reason I use it. I like using Wyeast 1098 British Ale yeast for IPAs. This strain is fairly attenuative, and produces a nice ester profile even when fermented at moderate (low to mid 60s) temperatures. However, it stubbornly refuses to settle out after fermentation is complete. What I've heard about this yeast is that it's a true top fermenting strain, that it's typically used in open fermenters and top cropped. The poor flocculation I experience with this yeast is a result of closed fermentation. In any event, adding gelatin and chilling for a couple of days drops the yeast right out. It may not be desirable to fine at the start of secondary fermentation. If too much yeast is removed from suspension at this stage, the result will likely be elevated levels of diacetyl. Since you are planning to lager in a 35F fridge, you may find that the extended cold lagering will give you good clarity without fining. If not, you can always fine at the end of secondary fermentation. >One book I was referencing said it >was advisable to add a half pack of yeast before siphoning the lagered beer >into the conditioning bucket (irrespective of gelatin use). Is this >advisable? Necessary? It depends on how long a period you plan to lager. I've had good success simply priming with corn sugar for pilsners that I'd lagered for only 6 weeks or so. This was using the Wyeast 2124 Bohemian, other strains I've used (2308 Munich, 2206 Bavarian) threw a lot more hydrogen sulfide in the early stages of primary and required longer lagering periods. In these cases, I've read that it's best to either krausen the beer, or add fresh yeast at bottling time. It has more to do with the condition of the yeast after extended lagering than low cell count from fining. Personally, I got a kegging setup shortly after switching to liquid yeast, so I kind of avoided the whole issue. I lager in corny kegs, and allow the beer to carbonate naturally. >Should I use a powdered lager yeast? I wouldn't. Jim dipalma at sky.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 12:30:31 -0600 From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank) Subject: Low Alcohol beer **************** from Bruce DeBolt ******************* The results on the ethanol analysis are in. I went back into the kitchen and reproduced the same procedure used at Thanksgiving to make what I thought was reduced alcohol beer. Poured about 10 oz. of homebrew (American Pale Ale style) into a 2 qt. pot and stirred more or less contiuously at 175-180F for the times indicated below. Samples were analyzed by gas chromatography using ethanol in water standards to make a calibration curve. I don't recommend taking the weight% ethanol numbers as absolutely correct, but the trend of lower alcohol vs. time is very clear. COMMENTS MINUTES VOLUME LOSS WT.% ETHANOL Base beer 0 0 6.1 1st sample 10 19% 1.2 ------------------------------------------------------------ WITHDREW SAMPLE FROM THE POT ------------------------------------------------------------ 2nd sample 20 37%+* 0.1 *Started with 320 ml, lost 60 ml at 10 min. Withdrew 110 ml for sample, left with 150 ml. After heating this 10 more min. (20 min. total) lost an additional 55 ml. Two points in this procedure I think helped reduce the ethanol content more than what I've read in some recent posts: - High surface area to volme ratio with only 320 ml in a 2 quart pot - Continuous stirring Conclusions: - This procedure will reduce alcohol content in beer - There is a significant volume reduction - Color increases over time I didn't taste these to conserve sample size, so can't comment on that. The 10 min. sample was made exactly the way I did it at Thanksgiving, and as I mentioned in an earlier post it tasted similar to non-alcoholic beers on the market but with more malt flavor and hop bitterness. My understanding is that 0.5% alcohol is considered the limit to claim a non-alcoholic beverage. Someone in the HBD sent me a note about a Vinometer (the post is at home) which is a capillary tube of some sort to determine alcohol content in wine. Their local retailer said it should work on flat beer. I've checked with two retailers here and both say it won't work with beer due to the differences in composition. I doubt I'll get a chance to check it out since these shops aren't close to home. Maybe someone else can try it. Vinometers are cheap ($6-7) and if they did work would be a quick and easy way to check ethanol content. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On another note Sierra Nevada has a promotional brochure which lists the bittering and aromatic hops used in all their beers. I was going to summarize this in brief tabular form for our club newsletter, if of interest I will post to the digest. Bruce DeBolt Lake Jackson, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 12:34:28 -0500 From: Philip DiFalco <sxupjd at fnma.COM> Subject: Cyser Help I'm 2 months into the process of making a 3 gallons of cyser. I racked it to a tertiary vessel two nights ago. To eliminate head space in the tertiary, I added some unfermented apple cider. I thought the cider I added was 100% cider, but it turns out that it contains Potassium Sorbate. Prior to racking, the cyser was somewhat opaque. One day after racking & adding the cider (that contains potassium sorbate), the cyser became much much clearer, with a very appreciable amount of stuff that has fallen out of solution (and is resting on the bottom of the carboy). Is this stuff yeast, etc.? Did the potassium sorbate kill the remaining yeast? Is there anything I should do to ensure my cyser is not completely ruined (ie., bottle)? Thanks for any help. - --- Philip DiFalco, sxupjd at fnma.com FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20016 1-202-752-2812; 1-800-SKY-FNMA (PIN#471-1735) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 14:09:25 -0500 From: GRMarkel at aol.com Subject: Testing for conversion I have been using the iodine test for conversion with mixed results. When I > mash with Klages grain, I usually can see a change (or lack of) in color > about 70% of the time. But when I mash with Pale Malt, I have yet to get a > positive test for conversion. Is there another method for testing for conversion, > or do most of you work on blind faith (like me)??? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:28:21 EST From: "Andy....pbx 5152" <copea at kenyon.edu> Subject: Homebrew Catalog Number Request Greetings to all, I'm a new subscriber to this list. Tonight I'll be bottling my first batch. It's an amber ale and I feel pretty confident about it so far, although time will tell. My question/problem is this. I was given the kit and the materials for the first recipe as a gift from a distant friend. I live in rural Central Ohio and I don't know of any homebrew supply stores or even wine-making stores around here. Are there any catalogs out there that are available? I'm interested in getting some numbers and perhaps having materials shipped to me periodically. Any numbers that people could send to my e-mail address would be most appreciated. Thanks, Andrew Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 17:12:20 EST From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com> Subject: foot in mouth disease It seems that in HBD1607 I posted some out of date information regarding the local production of Sam<tm>Adams<tm> products. It has admittedly been some time since I took the tour, but before posting I did double check my information in Steve Johnson's ON TAP NEW ENGLAND. This is a recently published (1994) survey of the local micro/brewpub scene. Sometimes not even researching the sources guarantees accuracy, eh? Several people have also taken me to task (I won't say flamed as they've all been extremely polite) for misidentifying baking soda as sodium hydroxide. Baking soda is of course sodium BICARBONATE (NaCHO3). Sodium hydroxide is household lye and should never be used in brewing. I knew this. The only explanation I can come up with for suffering such a massive brain fart is that I read - and respond to - the digest early in the morning before the coffee fully sinks in. Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass. steve.robinson at analog.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:29:32 EST From: Bob Bessette <bessette at hawk.uicc.com> Subject: Red Dog... Fellow HBDers, I had the rather unpleasant experience this past weekend of trying the new Red Dog beer made by Anheuser Busch. Can anyone really tell me that there is any discernible difference between Red Dog and AB's other no-taste beverage Budweiser? Also is there any discernible difference between Red Dog and Red Wolf? Bob Bessette (all-grainer...) bessette at uicc.com Systems Analyst Unitrode Integrated Circuits Merrimack, NH 03087 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 18:33:26 -0500 From: Hauptbrau at aol.com Subject: Malt Mill / Gear drive upgrade Has anyone had any problems upgrading their "o" ring driven malt mill to a gear driven malt mill? I have. I would like to share my experiences. I bought a malt mill (great product) with the "o" ring drive. After several broken "o" rings, I decided to upgrade to a gear driven malt mill. In the upgrade, I recieved only two gears with no instructions on how to install the gears. The only way to install the gears was to cut off the shaft and bore the roller to fit a new longer shaft. The new gear was placed on the new shaft on one side and the other gear was placed on the other roller where the hand crank is attached. What really upset me was that a normal person could not upgrade their "o" ring malt mill without some exstensive machine work. I think this should be stressed to the homebrewers when buying an "o" ring drive malt mill. By the way, the gear driven malt mill works much better. Return to table of contents
Date: 20 Dec 94 18:56:00 GMT From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Drat! Thanks to Rob Reed (and probably a couple dozen more of you) for pointing out that I got my lowers and raises mixed up. What I meant to say was: Baking soda is not sodium hydroxide -- it is sodium bicarbonate and yes, it will raise pH. Lye is sodium hydroxide and it will raise pH A LOT. ^^^^^ ^^^^^ See what you get when you hurry? Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:59:01 -0500 From: GRMarkel at aol.com Subject: Coriander and Hops?? In the past month I've read alot about Coriander. I've spread it around like fairy dust in quest of the perfect beer. But the more I read, the more confused I get. It has been used as a tea before bottling, added to the boil and added to the mash all with the same results! Which method (if any) is the best use of this spice? Another question - awhile ago the question was asked about bittering hops (high alpha) and finish hops (low alpha). If "finish" hops are used for bittering (based on IBU's) can any benefit be gained in flavor? I've often wondered that myself, hence watch for answers to that thread but never saw any. Any opinions? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 23:03:48 -0500 (EST) From: MYETTE at delphi.com Subject: Curing Haze problems Can someone tell me to difference between the different types of Beer Hazing? Chill Haze? & Protein/Starch haze? I was told and read that you can help cure chill haze by using Gelatin or Polyclar, but how do you solve the other haze types? Will a longer protein rest do it? or what Myetty at delphi.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 20:02:04 PST From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com <berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com> Subject: Mash Temperature Control Problem I use a 10 gallon cooler for my mash-tun. I have a very tough time with temperature control. I especially have trouble raising the temperature signicantly. Once I get it to the right temperature, it holds it just fine, barring variations from where I stick the thermometer. Specifically, I can't add enough hot water to get it from, say, 150 degrees to 170 for mashout. Nor can I get it from 122 to 150. I even add full boiling water! My best results have been when I start with a very small amount of water and a thick mash. Then adding hot water produces the greatest movement. But once I have more water in there, then it becomes harder for further movement. This is not a problem for a simple infusion mash. But I can't experiment with protein rests (well I _can_ experiment, I just can't do it successfully), or with mash outs. Do other people have this problem? How do you get around it? The only thing I can do is add gallons of boiling water - which leads to huge amounts of run off (because I find that even when I start with a thin mash, I still have to use the same amount of sparge water to get all the sugar). Any ideas? Thanks, Ken B water logged in Seattle Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1610, 12/21/94