FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  disheartened (James Manfull)
  U-Brews in the USA (Andrew Patrick)
  Silly Grain Information ("Robert W. Mech")
  Double Diamond Clone Request (solheim)
  Stopped Belgian Ale fermentation? (Dr. David C. Harsh)
  Lager yeast with Stout? (Steve Matkoski)
  water (dburns)
  4.01 pH buffer solutions (STROUD)
  RE: Water pH adjustments (Jim Dipalma)
  OOPS, Hunter, not Taylor ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  whatney's cream stout (adam rich)
  Rocky Racoon (David Cutkosky)
  freezer temp control (BigBrad)
  U-Brew experience (Steve Armbrust)
  YACC - Yet Another Carboy Caution (Jeff Benjamin)
  U-Brews (Aaron Shaw)
  Yeast culturing (ELLIS)
  U-Brew (Steve Peters)
  Re: U-Brew Shops (Nic Herriges)
  ubrew / 10% Hallertau? (npyle)
  Brewsack (Doland Cheung   CO-O   x5620)
  brewing (GlynnB9776)
  Alcohol-tolerant yeasts added in secondary? (uswlsrap)
  U brew (Eamonn McKernan)
  First Lager / Use of Brown Malt ("Palmer.John")
  Wart Chiller (Marc Davis)
  yeast for spiced beers (uswlsrap)
  Mash formulas (Jeff Stampes)
  re: Lager Boiling/Cooling/Fermentation Technique (Larry Barras)
  accidental Ice beer (Eric Williams)
  Upcoming competition announcement (Dion Hollenbeck)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 17:03:40 -0500
From: jxm64 at psu.edu (James Manfull)
Subject: disheartened

Greetings All,

I'm a relatively new brewer and still working from extracts.   I have
brewed about eight batches so far.  The first six got progressively better
and the last two have been progressively worse, the latest being one of the
worst since the beginning.  (Though in a completely different way!)
This was the first time I tried to be careful about Hot Wort Aeration and
this is the first cardboard like brew I've produced.

I put the brewpot in a sink full of ice water and added a gallon of cold
water directly to the pot.  I then strained it into the carboy and more
cold water,  gave it a long shake, and pitched hydrated Whitbread Ale
yeast.  (This brew was based on C.P.'s  Wise Ass Red Bitter).  Visible
fermentation began in sixteen hours -- long enough to get me worrying.
Some have told me that I pitched too cool.  Could that be the cause of such
nastiness?

That initial stage is the only time that I can think of where things could
have gone wrong.   The only other possibility is that the blow-by hose was
not submerged in the water inside the slop jug but I don't think this was
the case.  By bottling it was already on its way to the taste it now has.

I suppose in all creative endeavors there are some setbacks but this is
getting disheartening.  I have heard all the different discriptions of off
flavors but can never be sure enough to discern, say, wet cardboard from
overcooked veggies.  I try to avoid eating both.  It makes it tough to
figure out where I went wrong.  At times like these I wish for a wise
brew-mentor to give these failures a diagnostic taste test and set me back
on track.

All advice greatly appreciated.   Happy New Year.

James Manfull
Jxm64 at psu.edu



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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 03:58:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: U-Brews in the USA

There have been rumors of a U-Brew [tm?] starting in the Chicago area for 
over 1 year now.  I keep hearing a tidbit here, a hushed whisper there, 
but still have not seen anything really substantial.

I would be very interested in any info on how the West Coast ones are 
doing...

Andy Patrick (andnator at mcs.com)
Certified Beer Judge;  Brewing Instructor-College of DuPage County,IL
Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network:
Chicago 708-705-7263, Houston 713-923-6418, Milwaukee 414-238-9074

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 04:19:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Silly Grain Information

While brewing my last all grain batch, about lunch time I had a sandwich 
on rye bread and thought to myself...  Hey, this might be a good flavor 
in beer!  Now, my question is, has anyone used rye in beer before?  I 
wouldnt even know where to get it.  Ive never seen rye in a brewing 
catalog under the grain section at all.  Even if I did find it, does 
anyone have a clue how I would use it?  Or what the color would be?  I 
woudlnt mind giving it a shot, but id like to hear if anyone else has 
tried it.  Ive never seen it in any Recipie formulators either. BRF, Etc.

Also, a wacky side note.  Has anyone tried brewing with any amounts of 
unbleached flour?  Isnt flour just the grains all crunched up?  Would 
this stuff even extract?  

Email is fine, ill post a summary.

Rob


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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 08:01:16 EST
From: solheim at amigo.uicc.com
Subject: Double Diamond Clone Request

I am looking for a *extract* recipe for making a Double Diamond clone.  I did
see one in Cats Meow II for an all grain version but I'm not set up for that
yet.

If anyone has a recipe please forward me a copy through HBD or direct at
solheim at uicc.com.

Thanks in advance,

Ken

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:32:57 -0500
From: dharsh at alpha.che.uc.edu (Dr. David C. Harsh)
Subject: Stopped Belgian Ale fermentation?

Hi all,
        Before Christmas, I brewed an Abbey-style Belgian Ale and used
yeast cultured from Corsendonk's Monk's Brown Ale.  All was going fine.
Although I pitched before the yeast culture was really active, the
fermentation was bubbling through the blow-off fairly rapidly (at least for
a Belgian yeast) after about 36 hours.  I left for vacation for a week and
returned to find a calm fermenter looking ready for secondary.  I racked
into secondary and the sp. gr. had dropped by only 0.010 to 1.060!
        I'm trying to figure out what's happening - I've never had a
problem with stuck ferments (yet).  My culture medium was a weak wort as
described in Miller.  The beer smells fine and tastes fine too (although
really sweet...).
The yeast (I assume it is yeast) sediment was a very easily disturbed white
layer on the bottom of the carboy.  After transfer to the 2=B0, there was
about one bubble per minute leaving the airlock, but this morning it seems
to have tailed off.

        I'm assuming that my yeast have decided to stop too soon.  Does
this seem reasonable?  How do I get them off their lazy butts to finish the
job?  Or do I need to re-pitch with some yeast with a better work ethic?

Post here or private e-mail is fine.  I'll post a summary if comments warran=
t.

Thanks

Dave

      "The beer gods are from Belgium"



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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:06:33 -0500
From: sematkos at mailbox.syr.edu (Steve Matkoski)
Subject: Lager yeast with Stout?

Hi,
Has anyone tried doing this? It is very cold up here right now and
I wanted to brew up a nice stout. I cant keep the temp in the house
steady enough for ale yeast, I thought maybe I could try a Lager
yeast. What do you think?

 -steve.



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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 09:19:51 -0500
From: dburns at msi.com
Subject: water


Water guru's, please help!

I've been brewing for about 2 years, and always seem to
get a distracting metallic-twangy taste in my brew. I'm
an extract, partial-mash brewer. Most beginner's advice
regarding water consists of: "if it tastes alright, it's
ok. There's more important things to worry about. RDWHAHB."

Well, I've been as meticulous about sanitation as I can
be, I think, and have been following published recipes,
so I naturally came around to water. I've read and
understood the water sections in Pap, Miller, Burch and
one other I don't remember (a real armchair brewer!). I
have also read a book on drinking water and recently
completed Chem I at the local university.

I have concluded that I need another source of water,
since the sodium content is so high, even though there
is a slightly high chloride level. Other than that, the
water looks pretty darn good for brewing to me. My
conclusion is also based on the fact that I can't
effectively fix this, since distillation, freezing or
reverse osmosis will also remove beneficial amounts of
minerals, and selective precipitation of Na+ is nearly
impossible due to it's great solubility.

Can any water guru's set me straight on my conclusions
if they are incorrect? I'm about ready to quit this
hobby (now there's a threat!). Here's the data:

(units are ppm except as noted)
Calcium		34.3
Copper		<0.02
Iron		0.06
Magnesium	6.4
Manganese	0.54
Sodium		87.1
Potassium	5.2
Alkalinity	68.5
Ammonia		0.16
Chloride	155
Chlorine	<0.02
Color		5 CPU
Conductivity	710 umhos/cm
Hardness	112
Nitrates	<0.01
Nitrites	<0.01
pH		7.6 SU
Odor		1 TON
Sulphates	14.1
Tubidity	0.26 NTU
Sediment	neg

To his credit, Burch was the only one to say that
overly high sodium (beyond the level that is ok when
accompanied by a corrospondingly high chloride level)
requires an alternative water supply.

I tried a batch with bottled water, but I tried a
new porter recipe instead of my standard IPA. I
*think* the taste is gone. My next step is to try
bottled water with the IPA for better comparison,
which I should have done first.

Sorry for the long post, but it may be my last anyway.

dana
dburns at msi.com


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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 09:33:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com
Subject: 4.01 pH buffer solutions

Chris Barnhart inquires:

>I got a digital pH meter for Christmas and the instructions
>talk about calibrating the meter with 4.01 pH reference solution.
>Various homebrew shops sell this but it seems rather pricey to
>me.  Can this stuff be made with deionized water and a known
>amount of x% acid?  Or should I just bite the bullet and buy the
>stuff?

A standard 4.01 pH buffer (at 25 deg C) is simply a 0.5 M
solution of potassium hydrogen phthalate.  If you know a
chemist friend, this compound should be readily available. 
Alternatively, you may be able to find a chemical supply
house that will sell it to you - though to make the buffer
up accurately you will need a good set of scales and a
volumetric flask. 

Cole-Palmer sells buffer solutions for $6/500 ml.  What does 
your local hb store get for them?
 
Fisher Scientific sells potassium hydrogen phthalate for 
~$100 for 500 g, which is enough to make up ~50 liters of 
buffer solution!!!!  

Steve


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 10:01:33 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Water pH adjustments


   Hi All,

In HBD#1621, Lee Bollard asks about his water:

>>My water is pH 7.3 so I am following Miller's advice on treating the
>>sparge water with Lactic acid.  I'm using Lactic instead of gypsum
>>because my total alkalinity is high (168). Is this valid logic?
>>I mixed 88% lactic at 1tsp/1.5 cups, then added this to my sparge
>>water at 4tsp/gallon. The pH reading didn't change much at all!

>>My water:
>>- ---------
>>Carbonate: ?
>>Bicarbonate: ?
>>Total Alkalinity: 168
>>Total Hardness: 173
>>Calcium: 45
>>Magnesium: 14
>>Sulfate: 14

Norm Pyle replies:

>Your water pH of 7.3 doesn't mean much at all; the buffering effect
>of the ions in solution controls the pH.  "Alkalinity", at 168 ppm, I believe
>indicates the total carbonates and bicarbonates, and it is pretty high.  These
>would pull the pH up.  The hardness is equally high, at 173 ppm, so the pH
>remains close to neutral.  This solution is heavily buffered by all these
>ions, which is why the acid addition didn't affect the pH much.

My understanding is that the number for total hardness is comprised of the
temporary hardness and permanent hardness. The former is that which is caused
by the presence of carbonates and can be removed by boiling, whereas permanent
hardness is due to the presence of sulfate and cannot be removed by boiling.
While Lee didn't post the carbonate, the very low number for sulfate indicates
that his water is high in temporary hardness, i.e., has a high carbonate
content. I believe Norm's response that the carbonate is providing an 
alkalinity buffer is correct.

I have very similar water to Lee's, it's high in temporary hardness. What I do
is pre-boil both the mash and sparge water the night before brewing, and allow 
the bicarbonate to precipitate out overnight. With the alkalinity buffer
removed, my mash pH hits 5.2 - 5.4 when I dough-in, no further treatment is
required.

>You said it yourself, you should be checking the pH of the runnings, not the
>sparge water, so go do it.

I add 1/2 tsp of acidblend to 10 gallons of pre-boiled sparge water, and the
pH drops from ~8.0 to 5.7 - 5.8. Knowing that I'm adding acidified sparge
water to a mash that's 5.2 - 5.4, I don't need to check the runnings to
ensure the pH in the tun stays under 6.0, which seems to be the magic number
for excess tannin extraction. I do check the *gravity* of the runnings to get
a feel for when to stop sparging. There's more than one way to brew
successfully.
BTW, you cannot use gypsum to acidify *sparge* water. It works in the mash
due to a reaction between the calcium and phosphorous that is naturally
present in the grain (I'm a little fuzzy on the details of this reaction -
somebody help me out here), but will not work when added to water.

>This hard water, unadjusted, is probably fine for
>pale ales, BTW. 

Here I must disagree. My first few attempts at pale ales using this type of
water had a horribly harsh bitterness. I eventually traced the problem to
high carbonate levels and hopping levels that were appropriately high for
the style (30-35 IBUs).  The hardness in the water at Burton-on-Trent, home
of the pale ale style, is due to high *sulfate* content. The sulfate content
of the water emphasizes hop bitterness and flavor in a clean, pleasant manner.
What I do now, in addition to preboiling the water to remove the carbonate, is
add 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum directly to the kettle at the start of the boil
to boost the sulfate content.
Lee, the good news is that high carbonate water is ideal for dark, malty
brews that are more modestly hopped. Try a bock or Munich dunkel sometime.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 09:57:15 CST
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com>
Subject: OOPS, Hunter, not Taylor

 .int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

 In Wednesdays HBD I described my mod to the mod on HUNTER airstats, but describ
 ed it as a Taylor. Sorry to anyone confused... It is indeed a Hunter.

 Mike Teed ( now looking for my asbestos suit )


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:59:01 -0600 (CST)
From: adam rich <richa at Mayo.EDU>
Subject: whatney's cream stout

Hi,
	I recently had the opportunity to try a Whatney's Cream Stout.  
This beer is excellent and I would like to be able to make a reasonable 
copy, if that is possible.  Does anyone have an extract-based recipe?
	A couple of questions: 1) what yeast sgold I use when trying to 
imitate a whatney's? 2) why is it called a 'cream stout' and not merely 
'stout'?
	Finally, while visiting Rochester, NY I was able to go to a 
relatively new microbrewery, Rohrbach's.  I really liked the place.  Good 
beer (4-6 homebrews on tap, I really enjoyed thier stout), reasonable 
prices ($3 for a pint, $6.50 for a pitcher of porter), knowlegable 
and friendly bartender, pretty good food, and good atmosphere (not so GD 
yuppie).
	Thanks for any helpful information.
arich at mayo.edu
Adam Rich, Rochester, MN 

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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 09:58:46 -0500
From: davidc at interaccess.com (David Cutkosky)
Subject: Rocky Racoon

>In the past, I have always brewed a slightly modified version of
>Papazian's Rocky Racoon Honey Ginger Lager for the summertime
< Snip >
>my question is this:  I want to make it as an all-grain as opposed
>to the extract recipe I have been making, and need help making the
>conversion.  Any advice?  I don't have it in fron of me, but I
>recall the recipe to be along the lines of 6 lbs. of light extract 
>and 2 lbs. honey.....something along those lines.  TIA!

Jeff:

I just looked at the recipie in Papazian. All you need is a conversion for
amount of grain to use instead of extract. That is going to be dependant on
your extraction efficiency. Here's a little chart that shows the amount of
grain required to reach the gravity of 1 lb of malt extract disolved in 1
gal of water.


Efficiency  |  Lbs of     |    Lbs of
pts/lb/gal  | grain (DME) | grain (LME)
____________|_____________|___________
  25        |   2.00      |   1.57
  27        |   1.85      |   1.43
  29        |   1.73      |   1.35
  31        |   1.60      |   1.27
  33        |   1.50      |   1.17
  35        |   1.42      |   1.10


Therefore using Papazian's recipie in a 10 gal batch that uses 6 lbs of
light dried malt extract (DME) you would need Just under 10 1/2 lbs of pale
or 2-row malt if your extraction efficiency is 29 pts/lb/gal.  Hope this helps.


- --                              
David,   St. Charles, IL
                               Dammit Jim, I'm a homebrewer
davidc at interaccess.com                  not a doctor!
                               


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Date:         Wed, 04 Jan 95 09:52:17 CST
From: BigBrad <BPLUMMER at SYSUBMC.BMC.COM>
Subject:      freezer temp control

Hi, all. I'm out of lurk mode for the first time due to the posts about
converted freezers and 'fridges. I am using a 15 ft chest freezer that
will fit 7 soda kegs plus my co2 bottle. I didn't want to cut into the
sides or the top for my taps so I designed a collar that raises the lid
by 6". The collar is made of 6" wide by 2" thick oak. It is fitted to
the box with a lip on the sides and front and the rear is attached using
the existing hinges moved 6" higher. The original lid is placed on the
collar and due to some fine finish work by a friend, it seals great.
I am using an external White-Rogers(?) temp controller that states it
has a 4 deg delta. I have placed a digital indoor/outdoor thermometer
in the freezer and it has a memory function that will show what the
max and min temps are. It is showing a 10 deg delta. This reading is
taken after sitting all day without opening the lid. Does the placement
of the internal controller probe play a part in the accuracy of the
unit?  Is a 10 deg delta OK and I should just RDWHAHB?  TIA

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Plummer              \ As I picked myself off the floor, I  /
BMC Software, Inc.        \ realized I should have said, "Ma'am, /
Houston, Texas            \ that was some good foam on my beer." /
bplummer at sysubmc.bmc.com  \                                      /
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 08:57:01 PST
From: Steve Armbrust <Steve_Armbrust at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: U-Brew experience


Text item: Text_1

jeffpolo at eskimo.com noted that U-Brew places were coming to Washington 
state and asked about others' experiences. Oregon has had U-Brew 
places for a while, and recently my project team at work decided to go 
to one (Glisan Street Brewhaus) and brew a batch together.

Convenient is the best word to describe the experience.  A row of 
gleaming brew kettles all piped to a heat exchanger.  Water is already 
boiling when you get there.  You pick a recipe from a catalog of 
hundreds, measure out the ingredients, and add them when the recipe 
says to add them. Glisan street uses extract syrup, hop pellets, and 
dry yeast. Some recipes also use specialty grains, which you grind in 
a Corona, add to a grain bag, and dangle into the boiling wort for a 
while.

When the boil finishes, they pipe the wort through the heat exchanger 
(which instantly drops the temp to 60-70) and into a plastic carboy. 
You pitch the yeast, and they roll the carboy into a temp controlled 
room.  Two weeks later you come back.  The beer has been fermented, 
cooled, filtered, and carbonated. They hook the keg up to a tap and 
you fill bottles (or a kegs of your own).

As I said, convenient.  No worry, no cleanup, no thinking.  And I'm 
not sure it's really much like brewing. It's more like assembling 
something that was prebuilt.  The beer is OK -- very clean but a 
little thin and bland. The group experience was good -- we probably 
"sampled" as much as we bottled and everyone had a great time.  And it 
would probably be a good experience for beginning brewers. But at $100 
for 12 gallons (what a decent recipe costs), I wouldn't do it 
regularly.  Homebrewing is cheaper and more interesting. Real 
microbrew is also cheaper by the keg and much better.

Steve Armbrust in Portland, OR  
Steve_Armbrust at ccm.jf.intel.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 10:10:24 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: YACC - Yet Another Carboy Caution

Well, it hasn't yet happened to me, but a good friend just sliced up his
hand after breaking a glass carboy.  No permanent damage, fortunately,
although it did partially cut one tendon.  Just one of those things --
he was filling it from the bathtub faucet when it slipped and hit the
bottom of the tub and shattered.  So even though we covered this subject
recently, I thought I'd reiterate:  let's be careful out there!

Of course, after the fact, I thought of a solution to his problem of
having to use the tub, which involves bending over, having the carboy at
odd angles, and other gotchas.  He didn't have a sink which the carboy
fit under, or a sprayer hose to use for filling.  I suggested that he do
one of two things:

1) Buy a cheap garden hose or washing machine hose, and cut off several
feet at the end with the female connector.  Put a screw adapter on the
kitchen sink, and attach the hose to the faucet and use that to run the
water to the stationary carboy.

2) If you must still use the tub, buy one of those hose/sprayer units
that attaches to the tub faucet by means of a rubber boot.  Cut off the
sprayer if necessary.  Then fill the stationary carboy using the hose.

Also, when possible, try to *siphon off* about half the liquid in a full
carboy before trying to move it.  I feel a lot better when I only have
to heft a glass carboy that weighs half as much.

Talk about brewing danger always reminds me of one entry in my brew log:
"Do not pour sparge water over your hand!"  Again, no damage done, but
there's always the potential when you're working with fragile, sharp, hot,
or chemically nasty stuff.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 12:28:28 -0500
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: U-Brews


	Jeff Wade previously mentioned his excitement about the
arrival of U-Brew facilities coming to his state. I started brewing
at one of these establishments 4 years ago when they started
opening up around my province (Ontario).
	For the lazy brewer, the U-brews are ideal. You do not have
to go out and buy all your ingredients and invest in large copper
or stainless steel pots, and the best of all is NO CLEAN UP!
	What I didn't like was that it did not feel like I was truly
making my own beer. I just dumped some malt extract and
hops into a large brew pot (all of which were previously
measured to match the recipe I had selected from a book).
I was told to stir my wort occasionally during the next hour, and
add more hops at the set intervals. Then one of the people that
worked there came over turned off the burner and opened the
valve at the bottom of the pot and away my wort went. I was
told that it was being filtered and that it would be placed in a
fermentation vessel. I came back 2 weeks later with 48 litres in
bottles and filled them.
	After doing this 4 times I went out and bought my own
equipment and started brewing at home. I was extremely
excited at the prospects of being able to "go all-grain" and
experiment with different ingredients (ie: fruit, coriander,
coffee, belgian yeasts, etc...), which can not be found or
permitted at most of the U-Brews.
	I don't want to put down brew-on-premises facilities because
they are great for the lazy or busy brewer. I also recommend
them to people who are interested in becoming a homebrewer, so they 
can get a starting knowledge of the brewing process and there is
someone there to help out and answer questions along the way.
But for the more creative and adventurous brewers, there is no
substitute to that cherry stout or pumpkin ale made in a dusty
corner of the basement that you made YOURSELF.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 13:28:55 -0500 (EST)
From: ELLIS at DIRAC.PHYSICS.JMU.EDU
Subject: Yeast culturing


I recently purchased a yeast culturing kit from my supplier and the kit
contains something called "Freeze Shield."  Does anyone know what this stuff is
composed of?  Is it nothing more than just a glycerine solution?  Also, what is
the general opinion on the method of culturing yeast, is it better to grow
yeast slants or to suspend the yeast in glycerol and freeze them?  I have
plenty of test tubes and freezer space so it seems to me that the latter method
would be more advantageous since the yeast will supposedly remain viable for up
to a year or more whereas the yeast slants will have to be reworked after about
6 months.  Please correct me if my understanding of this is wrong.  Thanks in
advance for any advice on this matter!

Darren Ellis

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:45:18 -0800
From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com>
Subject: U-Brew

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> >       Well we got our first one, and it looks as though it is now about
> > months away before Seattle, WA will be enjoying its' first batch of U-Brew
> >Seattle... ales, wines, and lagers!  The Canadian trend moving into the
> >states.  Batches of 12.5 gallons  at  $80-100 dollars.  Using beautiful Brass
> >and all the other Micro-brewery equipment any homebrewer would *die* for!
> >This sounds "ok" to me :-)

  I have two reservations about U-Brew (we have two here in Portland, OR)
    1) the places here are extract-only
    2) they charge significantly more than it costs me to brew myself

I am thinking of paying them to make a batch of 1.020 gravity starter wort.  I
never have enough starter wort around, usually because if I have time to brew I
want to make beer, not starter.  Also, I dislike bottling more than a sixpack.
It would be worth the money to have a large batch of starter ready made
without the grunt work.  Then I could concentrate my time on improving my beer.

 -steve

- -- 

  ...+ Steve Peters : stevep at pcx.ncd.com  ....|.. Even Jesus wanted just ...
 ....+ Sustaining Engineering and Support ....|...  a little more time  .....
  ...+ Network Computing Devices, Inc  .......|...... :  Tom Waits   .......


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:50:56 -0800
From: nic at analogy.com (Nic Herriges)
Subject: Re: U-Brew Shops

In HBD 1622 jeffpolo at mail.eskimo.com (Jeff Wade) writes about the new
u-brew shop in Seattle.

> My hope is for discussion by you'all on the typical pro's and *any*
>con's that there might be with these alternatives to Homebrewing.

My guess is that you'll get *lot's* of discussion on this topic.  Hope
you've got your asbestos u-trow on...

>As far as I know... Canada and California are the only areas
>fortunate enough to have experienced the U-Brew heaven??

Actually, not to belittle the progressive commercial environment of our
neighbors to the north (not much anyway ;-)) little old Portland, OR has
had two (count'em) of these establishments for going on a year now.
Whether this is a *heavenly* occurrence is probably a matter for much
debate.  There certainly are pros and cons to this method of "homebrewing".
While many will decry this method as not really brewing (this goes even
farther than the all-grain vs. extract debate we perennially have here), my
personal philosophy is that anything that improves the quality of beer
generally is a good thing (not necessarily a great thing).  This certainly
will improve the quality of beer generally (not as much as more
microbreweries would but a lot more than Red Dog can).

I observed a buddy brew a batch using the u-brew method a few months ago
and noted the following:

Pros:
- --clean-up time is virtually eliminated (your spouse may appreciate this
more than you)
- --better hop utilization than my high-gravity worts (gotta get that big
brew kettle)
- --simplicity (everything is laid out in easy-to-follow steps)
- --flexibility (forced-carbonation or natural carbonation, filtered or non-,
kegging or bottling)
- --minimal capital investment (you have to buy or have bottles)
- --temp control (they have a 60F fermenting room and a 35F
lagering/pre-carbonation room)
- --you don't have to know anything

Cons:
- --you don't have to know anything (yes, it's on both lists)
- --cost (you can buy 1/4 bbls of microbrew for less; you can certainly brew
at home for much less--especially all-grain)
- --flexibility (you can't do all-grain--I've heard that may change; you make
one large batch at a time, but they encourage trading to enhance variety)
- --no gadgets to build or buy (some may consider this a pro)
- --travel (you have to go to their shop during their hours)
- --you have to figure out how to drink/store 5+ cases of beer in 2 months
(not a problem for many)

>For a busy person, such as myself... I must say this alternative
>may put some serious dust on my carboys, if you catch my drift :-)

For people with more money than time and less interest in the finer points
of brewing this is indeed an interesting alternative.  Purists will be
shocked and appalled and those without a high tolerance for diversity
should immediately add this thread to their kill files.

Regards,
Nic Herriges
nic at analogy.com
Portland, OR



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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 11:54:56 MST
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: ubrew / 10% Hallertau?

Jeff Wade asks about any "cons" on U-Brewing, the process of brewing beer at
a commercial establishment designed for it.  Colorado has at least one of
these places and I'll tell you the drawbacks I can think of.  The biggest
drawback is that they are usually designed around extract brewing only.  They
want you in and out, not taking 5-8 hours to do a full mash session.
Secondly, they sell you all the ingredients, and the fermentables are not all
barley based.  They use pellets.  They use dry yeast.  Besides, you don't get
to watch the little yeasties do their work, you come back when they are done!
Finally, you don't get to clean up all the equipment at the end of the brew
session!  On the "pro" side, the beer isn't bad at all, and probably pretty
consistent.

**

Christopher Warren writes:

>   Boy did I goof!  On Nov. 26 I brewed a Vienna style larger.  The
>recipe called for 1 oz. Hallertauer (10%) hops.  Last night after

First of all, throw the recipe away.  If you see anything with the name
Hallertau in it that has more than 5% alpha acids, I'd be very surprised.
You can make a hop tea by boiling some hops in water and adding it but it is
a wild guess what utilization you'll get, assuming you'll want to do a
relatively small volume of water to keep from diluting the beer too much.  It
is worth doing, though, just don't expect to find 10% AA Hallertau hops.


Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 11:40:26 PST
From: <dcheung at smtp.spd.usace.army.mil> (Doland Cheung CO-O x5620)
Subject: Brewsack

I just received a Lager Brewsack for Christmas and before I brew up a batch, 
I would like to know if anybody has used one of these before.  I am very new 
to this and any and all comments to the digest or my e-mail would be very 
helpful.

Doland Cheung
dcheung at smtp.spd.usace.army.mil


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 15:32:00 -0500
From: GlynnB9776 at aol.com
Subject: brewing

request info of any kind im a rookie

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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 15:13:42 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Alcohol-tolerant yeasts added in secondary?                      

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: Alcohol-tolerant yeasts added in secondary?

In making higher gravity brews like Imperials or barley wines or whatever, I've
had decent results using just plain old dry Pasteur Champagne yeast. To the
extent that I've had high gravity brews not ferment out as much as I'd like,
I'd bet that better aeration would have improved my results, but I wonder about
the _specific_ how-tos of starting the batch with some other yeast, and then
pitching Champagne yeast (after racking) after the 1056 or whatever poops out,
as has been mentioned in this forum and elsewhere.

Please excuse me if this sounds like a stupid question (because the _real_
stupid questions are the ones not asked), but how do you get that second yeast
going--specifically, how much of a starter is advisable given that you don't
want to aerate a fermenting _beer_ (as opposed to aerating _wort_)?  A litre of
starter is usally fine for five gallons when pitched in wort, because of the
(aerobic) reproduction in the beer-to-be.  But you sure don't want to aerate
beer just racked to secondary, and that small amount of rehydrated dry yeast
isn't likely to be enough.  If you pitch that small amount into secondary,
are the anaerobic conditions going to have undesirable results, and if
you're gonna pitch more at that point, how much?

Any yeastologists out there?? :-)

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 15:51:39 EST
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: U brew

Jeff was llooking for opinions on U Brew places. I have avoided them
personally, though we have several here in Toronto. They cost more, they
filter the yeast, which decreases the shelf life (I'm told only a couple
of months at room temperature), though makes a cleared product without the
usual transportation problems. They do almost all of the work for you. You
need only pick a beer style, and toss the yeast, then come back for bottling.
The rest is done for you. Though I understand that you can participate more in
the process if you request it. Only one that I know of offers all grain
capabilities. they want you to use extract.
Advantages? cheaper, no mess to clean, no knowledge of brewing required, 
temperature control (?) .
                   ^----  cheaper than buying beer I mean. 
Disadvantages? You don't do the brewing, no knowledge of brewing required...

Using a U Brew place would encourage me to brew at home. A homebrewer 
wishing to switch to a U Brew place? This seems counter-intuitive to me.

Now wherever did I put my asbestos underwear...

	Eamonn McKernan
	eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca

p.s. Remember that "late addition of fermentables" thread? I bottled my 
lager last night, and it tastes fine. Thanks again to all who offered advice.
I mashed some Munich malt, Pale malt, and toasted malt, boiled with hops,
and added the gallon of stufff to the beer. Can't wait for it to carbonate!

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Date: 4 Jan 1995 13:32:44 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: First Lager / Use of Brown Malt

Hi Group,
Dave Rahn asked some first lager questions. As I have brewed exactly ONE lager,
I felt uniquely qualified to toss in my chips.

1) Pros and Cons of removing Hot and Cold Break...  
IMO: I dont think cold break is a big issue unless you are trying to match
Pilsener Urquell. I use an Immersion Chiller and a manifold for trub removal so
I guess I remove both before pitching. I dont have any data to support
conclusions in this matter.

2) How to cool to cold temperatures before pitching...
My immersion chiller (45 ft of 1/2 inch tubing) uses a recirculation pump. Once
I have chilled to below 100F, I start adding 10 lb blocks of ice to the chiller
water. Took 2 blocks, but I got to 40F without trouble. One thing that should
be considered in this is that the primary fermentation temp for Wyeast Bohemian
is 46-48F.  You should not need to chill any lower. 

As for secondary (lagering), I found my refrigerator performs nicely if I set
the temp to 40-ish (without my Airstat) and place two 10lb blocks of ice in
plastic bags next to the carboy. The ice melts very slowly. I have only had to
replace the ice once (1/4 melted) in the month that I have been lagering at
34F. The temp has been very stable at 34F (as reported by the Airstat probe)
due to the ice blocks.

3) Temp for Diacetyl Rest...
I dunno. Haven't used one yet. When I tasted my "Cold But Not Baroque" Vienna
at racking time, several tasters commented that it had very little diacetyl
character. Lagering should take care of what little there was. I used Wyeast
Bohemian too.

PS. Watch out for it Freezing! (But its not a big deal as long as the carboy
doesnt break)
***
I recently bought 10lbs of Hugh Baird Brown Malt to use in some ESBs? and
Porters. Does anyone have some idea of typical amounts to use for a five gallon
batch, assuming 1.050 and the use of 2 Row as a base Malt? 1/2 lb? 1? 2? 5??

Thanks!
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com  Huntington Beach, California
          *Brewing is Fun*

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 13:03:09 PST
From: Marc Davis <Marc_Davis at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Wart Chiller


Text item: Text_1

Has anyone looked at making an immersion chillier from a refrigerator 
compressor?  It seems to me that the cold side of an old refer 
compressor could be hooked to a copper coil with flexible pressure line. 
This would allow wart chilling without going through gallons of tap 
water.  I don't know if this system could move enough BTU's to work.

Marc Davis

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Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 17:25:58 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: yeast for spiced beers                                           

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: yeast for spiced beers

I haven't caught up on all the accumulated HBDs between Christmas and
New Year's, but here's my thirty-two cents' worth on yeast selection
for a holiday spice beer: Wyeast German Ale.  I've had good results with it.

But these things are a matter of personal preference.  Listen to your yeast!

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 13:49:10 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Mash formulas


I really enjoyed the article in the Spring Zymurgy on using
formulas to determine the correct amount of water to bring to
a boil to raise your mash temp a desired amount.  The
example they used was if you wanted to mash 7 lbs. of grain
at 150F, and wanted to achieve a final dilution of 1.25 qts/lb.
you would add 3 qts. of room temp. water and 5.75 qts of boiling
water to achieve the final strike temp.  

The formula the used takes into account variables such as
boiling temp. of water (us in the mountains can boil as low
as 195F) and the heat capacity of grain (which varies depending on
the moisture content of it).

I have taken this information and put it into an Excel 3.0 worksheet
(I use 5.0, but I downgraded it to make sure everyone could use
it).  I think it's pretty useful, and thought others might
make use of it.  If you're interested, let me know and I will
E-mail it to you.  If someone could add it to the archives, I
would appreciate it.

Thanks to Kurt Froning, the author for his work!  This simplifies
my brewing a lot!

Jeff Stampes
jeff at neocad.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:43:55 -0600
From: larry at merakusa.com (Larry Barras)
Subject: re: Lager Boiling/Cooling/Fermentation Technique

I've made pilsners using the methods in Noonan's book. Although a good bit
of work, they indeed made excellent beers.  I've since switched to decoction
mashing for all my lagers. I find I get full bodied beers, little haze or
clarity problems, and easier sparging.

1:  pro's and cons of hot break and cold break removal.

I don't think it matters whether you do it at the same time or not. Removing
as much break as possible makes for cleaner tasting more stable beer.  

2: Fast cooling.

I'd love to try it, but I just don't have the means to do so.  I too use an
immersion chiller in the kettle. It's the best I can do.

3: Diacetyl rest.

I've heard 60F, but have never intentionally done this.  Never had high
diacetyl problems.

I am running a batch with Wyeast Bohemian now.  I don't think I like it. It
had a long lag time and very slow ferment.  It also seemed to produce a good
bit of sulfur odors.  I am told it will go away in lagering.  I used the
bavarian before.  I think I liked it better.  Comments on the Wyeast
Bohemian anyone?

I over-did the protein rest a bit on some of my decoction mashes.  The head
retention was fantastic, but the beer had a slightly "soapy" quality.

Larry Barras
Merak Projects, Inc.
(713) 850-1633


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 19:30:56 -0500 (EST)
From: ewillia1 at st6000.sct.edu (Eric Williams)
Subject: accidental Ice beer

A question (plea for help) from a lurker.  We have had a Czech style
pilsner lagering for about a month.  Everything was going fine until the
night of the New Year's Day party.  The stout served at the party was a
hit and so was our new beer fridge set-up.  Sadly a party goer decided to
see how the thermostat (FermTemp (c)) worked.  So today we opened the beer
fridge to gaze at the beer and much to our suprise found a glass carboy
filled with ice. ( Bad party goer) 
The question how do we save the beer.  Thaw slowly .  remove from freezer?
help.
TIA
Eric Williams  (ewillia1 at st6000.sct.edu)


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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 20:55:24 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Upcoming competition announcement



This is a preliminary announcement of the America's Finest City
Homebrew Competition, March 11, 1995.  The competition will be held in
San Diego, CA and sponsered by Quaff (Quality Ale and Fermentation
Fraternity).  This is an AHA sanctioned competition and entries will
be accepted in all recognized categories including beer, mead,
barleywine and saki.  Entries will be accepted from Feb 27 through 
Mar 8.

Further details of entry prices and shipping address for entries will
be forthcoming shortly.  This notice is to let you know to start
brewing for this great event. 

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1623, 01/05/95