FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  homebrew suppliers near Chi. (Mike.Vita)
  cider with potassium sorbate, knife'ing the lauter bed? ("Mark J. Donnelly")
  RE: Mini-kegs (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Re: 5 litre mini-kegs (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Yeast culturing vs. freezing ("John A. Maxwell")
  recipe request for S.A. cranberry lambic (Todd S. Taylor x2718)
  hello ("Aaron Keatley")
  CO2 for minikegs / _Berkshire_?? Brewery / Grant's Scot Ale yeast (Bob Paolino               Research Analyst)
  Scaling Up / BT (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
  PET Bottles and priming ("peter williams")
  Re: Soda-pop recipies (Jeff Benjamin)
  RE: Inverted Sugar (Arthur McGregor 614-0205)
  Pathogens (dhvanvalkenburg)
  Licorice (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
  Priming Rate vs Package Volume ("Manning Martin MP")
  5L taps/ftpmail (Ronald Moucka)
  Strange fermentation (Stanton_A)
  Beechwood Aging (Steven W. Schultz )
  100% Efficient Mash/Storing Bottled Lager/Acidification  at  PU ("A.J. deLange")
  Re: Your 5L Kegs (George Danz (919) 405-3632)
  5 litre mini kegs (Nigel Townsend)
  heifeweizen recipe? ("mike spinelli")
  2 litre plastic bottles (Bob Kemp)
  PET and CO2 again (ANDY WALSH)
  Black gold Q? (Lisa Higginbotham)
  Re: labels (Shawn Steele)
  Iodophor/phosphoric acid (David Allison 225-5764)
  Cancellation (JerryHamil)
  Re: D-C Aromatic Malt (Jim Grady)
  Chicago Brewing/Oxygen diffusion/Undeliverable messages (Philip Gravel)
  Re: Brewing Techniques Subscript (Goldings)
  Alt and Kolsch H2O Profiles??? (MValentiner)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 18 Jan 95 07:11:54-0500
From: Mike.Vita at wpo.ftc.gov
Subject: homebrew suppliers near Chi.

My brother has recently moved to the Chicago area (Naperville),
and would like to know of any good homebrew suppliers in the
area.  I told him I would ask.  Thanks.

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Date: 11 Jan 95 15:21:00 EDT
From: "Mark J. Donnelly" <donnelly at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us>
Subject: cider with potassium sorbate, knife'ing the lauter bed?

Hi y'all

Tim Spencer posted to HBD1627 about making a cider batch with 
preserved cider.  I had the same question (basically) but I brewed 
anyhow and was waiting til I tasted it to ask, but since Tim asked:

This was my first try at cider.  I had read/heard the advice to get 
nonpreserved cider, but I couldn't find any, so in a relaxed state of 
mind I purchased 3 gallons of cider containing "less than 1/10 of 1 % 
potassium sorbate."  I added this to a plastic fermenter with 1 lb 
corn sugar to bump up the gravity to 1.070 or so, and added a few (I 
think 5 or 6) campden tablets.  The next evening, I pitched a package 
of Montrachet wine yeast that had been started a few days earlier 
in a corn sugar/water solution.  I also added some yeast nutrient.  
After about two weeks in the primary, there was no action, but then 
suddenly the next week I had primary fermentation going.  (the temp 
was 65-70F).  I believe the yeast was slowed but not stopped by the 
preservative, and the wild yeasts were probably slowed also.  It 
never developed any harsh odors during primary.

After 1 1/2 more weeks, the primary slowed down.  The gravity had 
only dropped to 1.035.  I racked to a 3 gallon carboy, and to my 
surprise after 18 hours the fermentation was stronger than it ever 
had been in the  primary, blowing out of the airlock twice over the 
first 3 days (Aeration?!!)  After three weeks in the secondary (and 
an intermediate racking because of the 2" of yeast sediment that had 
built up) the cider had stopped bubbling and clarified.  I bottled a 
week and a half ago, and I haven't tasted it yet except at bottling.  
There were no strong off flavors or odors then.  Hope this helps.

*******

I have a newbie allgrain question from Jim Busch's posting to 
HBD1627.  What is "knife'ing the lauter bed"?

******

Thanks for all the great info so far!

Mark           donnelly at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us
Louisville, KY


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 10:00:09 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: RE: Mini-kegs

david lawrence shea wrote about RE: Mini-kegs: 
 >  The customers who stated that
 > they didn't overprime, either miscalculated or didn't understand.

Or their beer was not fully attenuated when they "bottled."

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 10:03:36 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: 5 litre mini-kegs

$15.95/10 is steep.  I assume you're talking about the 16gram ("big")
cartridges.  I get 'em for about $10/10.

You may have a leak.  At "Standard Temperature and Pressure" (0C, 1
atm), CO2 weighs about 2g/liter.  Thus a 16g cartridge has 8 liters of
1atm CO2 in it (at 0C).  This should be sufficient to push out 5
liters of beer.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:03:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "John A. Maxwell" <jmax at access.digex.net>
Subject: Yeast culturing vs. freezing

"De-lurk, Mr. Scott"
"Aye captain. Cloaking device de-activated"
<cheesy sound effect>

	Greetings to one and all.  I've been reading the digest for
just under a year now, and I have my first question which I can't find
an answer to just by lurking (A testimony to the quality of the hbd as
an information source...).

	I'm a relatively new brewer (5 batches, extract w/ specialty
grains), and am working on improving my batch-to-batch consistency. To
this end, I've been digging up information on yeast storage and
culturing; also, since liquid yeasts get a hair expensive, using the
same yeast culture for several batches should help on both of these
goals.

	After digging around, I find myself with two alternatives
which look like they are possible ways to do this: 1. Yeast slants,
and 2. Freezing the yeast, as in Maribeth Raines' (pardon me if I just
butchered your name, Maribeth...) article in Zymurgy a few years back.
>From what I can glean, both give you the ability to store yeast for
a long time, and both are going to require me to make a starter and
build up a small amount of stored yeast into an active (herd? flock?
flocc?) of yeast.

	Given this, I don't understand why anyone bothers with yeast
slants.  They seem to involve substantialy more work, for the same
results.  Is it just the folks with frost-free freezers who do slants,
or am I missing something signifigant?

				TIA, John

John Maxwell, jmax at access.digex.net
(physically speaking, Baltimore, MD, USA)


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 10:08:44 EST
From: taylorts at e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com (Todd S. Taylor x2718)
Subject: recipe request for S.A. cranberry lambic

I had this beer and thought it was pretty good.  Does anybody have a extract
recipe for this or one that is close? Thanks Todd.   This I believe is 
a wheat based beer, am I correct??

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Date: 8 Dec 94 15:41:00 EDT
From: "Aaron Keatley" <keatley at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us>
Subject: hello

maybe this will work


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:30:36 EST
From: Bob Paolino Research Analyst <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com>
Subject: CO2 for minikegs / _Berkshire_?? Brewery / Grant's Scot Ale yeast


D.Jones asks about CO2 cartridges for minikegs:

$16 at the homebrew store is truly outrageous.  Go to your local sprawlmall
and see if they have a Lechter's kitchen/housewares store--they sell them
for five bucks.  The packaging says they're for making seltzer water.

Rick Stark mentions the Berkshire Brewery:

Hmmmm....  Berkshire Brewery in South Deerfield.  I suppose they can call it
what they want, but they sound a little bit geographically-impaired.  Western
Mass, yes; but the Berkshires, no.

And, now, my question:

Go ahead, express your horrour at my sloppiness in technique, but I made a
batch of starter wort last weekend and had some extra beyond what I was going
to bottle or use right away.  I noticed the bottom of the bottle of the
carefully stored Catamount Christmas '92 I had poured and was a little
puzzled, because I thought (know) that Catamount filters their beers.
Nonetheless, I sanitised a small jar and dumped the remains of the bottle and
some wort in the jar.  I didn't really expect anything alive in there.

Now here comes the time to express your shock and outrage.  I have a collection
of starters sitting on the counter, including that jar with a small quantity
of wort and whatever settled out in the Cat Christmas 92.  No activity, of
course.  Well, I repeated the previous incident with a Grant's Scottish Ale
(a fairly old bottle, too).  I don't buy Bert's beers often enough to notice
if they're bottle-conditioned (they're usually priced pretty high here and not
always in the best shape.  It doesn't, however, stop me from getting the
Imperial every now and then :-) ), but on a whim I took the foil off that
Catamount jar and dumped the dregs from the Grant's.  Sloppy technique, yes,
though not in the sanitation area, but it was there waiting to be thrown out
anyway.  Well, two days later, I see that it's alive and looking pretty
healthy.

Does anyone know what kind of yeast is used in the Grant's Scottish Ale? TIA

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 8:58:01 MST
From: Norman Pyle (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Scaling Up / BT

Jim Busch wrote:

>It is my experience that scaling up recipes does not work well at the
>10 gal - 1 BBl level, much less what might occur at bigger jumps.  Much

I agree Jim, judging from our local micro.  The first batch of pale ale
(bottled bitter) they produced wasn't a great beer at all.  In fact, I
thought it too bitter without a lot of other things going for it.  After
tweaking it a bit, the beer improved dramatically.  In fact, they won all
kinds of awards in the next 12 months, including a Gold Medal and BOS at
the Great International Beer Tasting and a gold medal at the Great
American Beer Festival.  I talked to the brewmaster and was told the early
batches suffered from the upscaling from "kitchen-sized" batches.  Also,
considering this is a small-time operation, I'm sure they couldn't afford to
just dump barrels and barrels of beer until they got it right.  Something to
consider, definitely.

**

Tom Puskar writes:

>Several references have been made to a publication called Brewing Techniques
>or BT.  My local brew supply houses don't carry it and were not very familiar
>with it.  Could someone post an address and subscription info.  I'm sure
>there are more of us out there who would like to find out about it.

Brewing Techniques has been around now for about a year.  I find it hard to
believe your local stores don't know about it, they must really be out of
touch.  BT seems to meet my interests much better than Zymurgy.  It is a
top-quality publication, IMHO, and well-worth the subscription price.  I don't
have their number handy, but if nobody posts it, I'll dig it up and post it
later.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date:          Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:32:28 AST
From: "peter williams" <peter.williams at acadiau.ca>
Subject:       PET Bottles and priming

To clarify my statement about priming sugar and PET bottles.

It was my experience that the bottles expanded as the pressure built
up inside the bottle.  You can convince yourself of this by observing 
the fluid level in a pop bottle before and after opening it for the 
first time.  This does not occur(significantly) with a glass 
container.  Hence, to get the same pressure, you need to add a bit
more priming sugar in a PET than a glass bottle.  I was using 1 1/8 
cup corn sugar for a 23 litre batch.

Along the same line, I felt that I got more carbonation in a large 
PET than a small PET.  I assume this is related to surface/volume 
ratios.

On thing I forgot to mention.  If you use PET bottles, don't try to 
sterilise the caps by boiling.  When I did this, the rubber gasket 
under the cap shrivelled up int a rather hard blob which made a very 
poor seal.

Peter Williams
pwilliam at acadiau.ca
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
Canada

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 10:00:47 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Soda-pop recipies

Doug Lukasik asks about home-made soda pop.  Since it's been close to a
year since I last posted my ginger ale recipe, I'll reprise it.

I've made it many times successfully, with only a few gushers and no
exploding bottles.  The keys are short fermentation/conditioning time,
refrigeration, and consuming fairly quickly.  This prevents bombs,
keeps the alcohol content low, and retains sweetness.  It will have a
small alcohol content, so be aware if you're serving to kids, but I've
served it to children as young as four with no ill effects.

Ginger Ale

1 gallon water
1 pound white sugar (either granulated or corn will do)
1/2 oz cream of tartar
1 oz grated ginger
1 lemon
your favorite ale yeast

Boil water, stir in sugar, cream of tartar, ginger, and zest of lemon
(yellow part of peel).  Cool to pitching temperature (<75F), add juice
of lemon.  Transfer the whole mess to a sanitized fermentation vessel,
pitch yeast, and cap with an airlock.

Bottle after 48 hours, using strong bottles (champagne or 2l soda pop
bottles work well).  Let condition at room temperature for 2-3 days,
then refrigerate.

Helpful Hints:
 -  You can use more ginger (up to 3-4 oz per gallon) to get spicier ginger
   ale.
 -  The jury is still out on whether it is necessary to peel the ginger.
   I peel it simply because it's easier to grate that way.
 -  Don't second guess the fermentation time, and don't be worried if
   the air lock is still perking after 48 hrs.  If you let it go past
   48 hrs, you will probably end up with somewhat flat, not-very-sweet
   soda.
 -  Please don't use regular beer bottles.  Champagne bottles are much
   stronger.  2l PET bottles work very well because you can squeeze them
   to see how carbonated they are, and relieve pressure if you're worried.
 -  Make sure you store the ginger ale in the fridge.  This will help
   minimize any unwanted further fermentation.
 -  Make in small quantities and drink soon.  The refrigerating will
   *minimize* fermentation, not stop it, so eventually you will run the
   risk of gushers or grenades.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 13:11:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: RE: Inverted Sugar

Hi All,

In HBD #1633 Andy asked about invert sugar.  A fellow in my office who has
been brewing for years, said that cane sugar can be made into inverted sugar
by boiling it for a half hour or so in a mild acidic solution (e.g., in the
wort).  Maybe some chemist in the HBD could provide some details on other
methods and some insight.  Hope this helps :) !

Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil) Lorton, Virginia



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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 09:41:43 PST
From: dhvanvalkenburg at CCGATE.HAC.COM
Subject: Pathogens

     As the an owner of a home brewing shop I am occasionally asked by 
     customers if there is anything that is pathogenic, carcinogenic, or 
     otherwise toxic that can develop in the brewing process.  I know as a 
     home brewer with many years experience that this is not possible.  I 
     posed this question to Dr. M. Lewis at Davis several years ago who 
     assured the class that there is no possibility of pathogens:  However, 
     the question came up again with my insurance agent for the HB supply 
     store who said the underwriters are concerned about product liability. 
      The simple answer "no" has always satisfied me in the past, however, 
     does anyone know the technical answer/explanation to this question?


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Date: 18 Jan 95 12:32:00 -0600
From: mlm01 at intgp1.att.com (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
Subject: Licorice

There has been some talk about licorice lately, I'd like to add
my two beers worth. There is a trick to get the licorice to
disolve completely. First, freeze the licorice. Second, when ready
to use, place licorice in a very sturdy plastic or mylar bag
and pulverize with a hammer or some other blunt object. This
causes the licorice to be in fine shreds and it disolves much
easier in a good long boil.

Mike Montgomery
mlm01 at intgp1.att.com


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Date: 18 Jan 1995 14:06:08 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Priming Rate vs Package Volume

Bob Paolino comments on Peter Williams comments on carbonating beer in PETs:

PW:  "I had to add a bit more priming sugar than I do in glass to compensate
for the volume increase of the container."

BP:  Huh?  I assume you're comparing a 12 ounce bottle to a 2l PET...  
 ...you would typically want _less_ concentrated priming sugar in solution
when using a larger package. You certainly don't want to prime a kegged brew
at the same rate as a bottled one.

This has bothered me for a long time.  I can see no reason why the volume of
the package has anything to do with the amount of priming sugar required to
achieve the *initial* desired carbonation level in the finished beer (as long
as the volume of the head space is in the same proportion to the volume of
the liquid, and then only if the volume of the head space is large compared
to the volume of the liquid).  I think that the recommendation (by Papazian,
e.g.) to reduce the prime for kegged beer are really addressing the
dispensing method.  The small plastic barrels and the newer 5 L mini's have
very short dispense flow paths and therefore very little pressure loss to
their taps.  Unless the internal pressure is kept low, there will be a lot of
foaming.  

This also means that the carbonation level (volumes of CO2) must be low,
which is just fine for the real ales that the early plastic pressure barrels
were designed for.  The newer 5 L systems are adapted from commercial
packages (including, if not specifically for, lagers), which were designed to
be consumed quickly, before the beer can lose its carbonation due to the low
dispense pressure required.  

The only way to maintain proper carbonation over time is to hold the
appropriate pressure-temperature relationship in the keg, and when this
requires a higher pressure than the drop through your dispensing line you
have a problem.  To get satisfactory dispensing , you must either temporarily
reduce the pressure on the beer to nearly match the losses in your line and
tap, or increase the losses in the line such that it reduces the pressure to
near-ambient during delivery.  Either way, you have to make up for the
increasing head space with additional CO2, and in the former method you must
also replace the vented CO2.  

MPM


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:43:41 GMT
From: rmoucka at omn.com (Ronald Moucka)
Subject: 5L taps/ftpmail

Fellow Brewers,

Two quick questions:  I would like to obtain a second 5L
mini keg tap for parts.  Does anyone out ther have one
they've given up on?  I'd be willing to pay a few bucks for
one, especially if the tapping part is still functional (I
don't care if the CO2 end isn't).

Secondly, can someone help me with ftpmail?  I've tried
every syntax I can think of, but can't seem to get it to
work.  My access to the net is through a BBS, and is not
"real time" so I'm forced to use the ftpmail method.  I'm
trying to get a DOS copy of SUDS.  I know the archives have
moved, but do the archives include only back issues of HBD,
or does it include all the FAQ's, programs, etc?  Sorry this
isn't directly beer related, but I've run out of options.

Many TIA
       .:.
      :.:.
    /|~~~~|
   (_| D  |
     |  B |   Ron Moucka, Brewmaster
     `----'   DayBar Brewing, Ltd.
  "It's not so much an indication of our legal structure
   as it is a reflection of our abilities."
rmoucka at omn.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 15:24:00 EST
From: Stanton_A <StantonA at po1.atl.bls.gov>
Subject: Strange fermentation


Hey all!  I'm brewing my first batch of beer (got the setup for Christmas) 
and have a couple questions, if I may.

My first concoction seems a bit slow.  I'm using Ironmaster Lager Malt 
Extract, Ironmaster kicker, 1lb corn sugar, and the yeast that came with it. 
 I mixed the yeast in water (later read it should have been hot water, but 
it was cold water) and added to extract in the carboy (five gallons).  It 
had noticeable bubbles after a day, but didn't have a real real active 
fermentation until the fourth and fifth days.  It never did need the blowoff 
hose, since it never bubbled further than the carboy neck.  We were going 
through sort of a cold snap here in Georgia and the temperature of the 
fermentation corner was in the low 60's.  The bottle neck now has many brown 
'remnants' covering it.  When I saw that the head of the fermentation wasn't 
going to reach the blow-off tube, I replaced the tube with the fermentation 
lock.

Okay, from what I've read (which is everything I can get my hands on), 
lagers are slower fermenters and are supposed to be fermented at lower 
temperatures.  It's been about two weeks in the fermenter, and I'm about to 
start taking readings to see if it's ready to be bottled (visible signs of 
fermentation have only recently stopped).

Does it sound like everything is going alright?  My concern is that it never 
bubbled up to the blow-off valve even at the height of it's 'vigorous' 
stage, and that it took so long to get there.  Also, how long should I leave 
it in the bottles, since it took so long to get to this stage?

Also, what's a good source of non-twistoff bottles if you enjoy draining 
them first?

Thanks for your patience with a newbie, and any answers!

Art Stanton
Stanton_A at po1.atl.bls.gov

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Date:     Wed, 18 Jan 95 15:20:06 EST
From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult at cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Beechwood Aging

	In the 1994 Zymurgy Special issue, there was an article by Ron
Page, on using wood chips to age beer.  I especially liked the idea that
wood chips may contribute to a more complete fermentation, by increasing
the surface area of the fermenting tank.  Being both lazy and paranoid
about sanitation, I am not a candidate for using a fish pump to aerate the
wort.  But since I have experienced high FGs, and there are Beech trees
everywhere in Northern Maryland, I would like to try using wood chips.  

	I would appreciate hearing from brewers who are knowledgeable on
the use of wood chips, especially as it may help to achieve a lower FG. 
Either private or public postings are fine with me.  If I receive some
helpful private responses, I'll post a summary to the digest. 

	Thanks in advance.

Steve Schultz	
Aberdeen, MD


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:24:38 +0500
From: "A.J. deLange" <pp001837 at interramp.com>
Subject: 100% Efficient Mash/Storing Bottled Lager/Acidification  at  PU

Charles Jackson asked about and David Draper responded on the subject of the 
gravity of a 100% efficient mash. The first issue which needs to be addressed 
is the definition of "efficient". The simplest one is one in which the 
efficiency is the fraction of the total weight of the grain which converts to 
sugar (extract) i.e. 100% efficiency means that one pound of grain converts 
to one pound of extract. This is, of course, unacheivable as husks, ash etc 
are not convertible, not all starch converts and some of that which does is 
left behind in the lauter tun. 

To calculate the extract for a given efficiency using this definition 
multiply the weight of the grain (pounds) times the efficiency (expressed as 
a fraction i.e. for 100% use 1.0) and divide by the amount of wort (not the 
water which is used to make the wort) in gallons. Call this x. The gravity in 
degrees Plato is then approximately:

  P =  11.987*x - 0.54376*x*x

e.g. one pound of extract per gallon of wort corresponds to 11.44 Plato. This 
can be converted to SG units by:

  SG = 1 + (.015794*P*P + 3.78213*P - 1.265)/1000

which is often approximated in the usual region of interest by 

  SG = 1 + 4*P/1000

I believe this definition is the usual one and a home brewer is usually happy 
if he acheives 70% with barley malt and maybe 75% with wheat. Commercial 
operations look for closer to 80%.

David Draper commented on the tabulated numbers found in books such as 
Miller's and Noonan's. These are the expected points per pound per gallon for 
various malt and sugar types. Using the conversion to SG formula above 11.44P 
(which corresponds to 1 pound of sucrose - all the sugar gravity tables are 
based on sucrose - in 1 gallon of wort) gives SG = 1.046 or 46 points per 
pound per gallon. I don't have any reference materials with me as I write (at 
work) but seem to recall DME and cane sugar being tabulated at 45 or so with 
the well modified malts at 30-35. These numbers, thus, have an efficiency 
built in i.e. a malt that is expected to yield 35 points per pound per gallon 
contains approximately 100*35/46 = 76% extractable starch and the rest is 
unconvertable material. To use these numbers find the average points per 
pound per gallon:

  Avg = (w1*ppp1 + w2*ppp2 + w3*ppp3...)/(w1 + w2 + w3...)/(gallons wort)

where w1 is the weight of the first malt/sugar type, ppp1 is the points per 
pound per gallon for that type and so on. The expected gravity is then 1 + 
Avg. The efficiency of the composite mash is then 100*Avg/46. Were the mash 
100% efficient one would acheive 46 points per pound per gallon for each malt 
and SG = 1 + 46*(w1 + w2 + w3 + ...)/(gallons wort)/1000.

James Manfull asked about storage of bottled beer which had been lagered at 
45F for three weeks. The beer should be stored for 3 months at a temperature 
as close to freezing as possible. The lagering will take place in the bottles 
as long as there was a bit of yeast in suspension at the time of bottling.

Jeff Renner wrote about acidification at Pilsner Urquell:
I don't have all the details but I believe a long (meaning hours) acid rest 
at 95F is employed. The Plzen water has about 7 ppm (I think) Calcium and 
this reacts gradually with phytic acid to free hydrogen ions. German brewers 
use sour mash for acidification and I believe the Biersteuergesetz permits 
the use of lactic acid as long as it is prepared from L. Delbruckii taken 
from the malt being used. I tend to discount this idea for PU because a 
higher temperature is required for the lactobacilli to do their job.

A.J. deLange
a.j._delange at csgi.com



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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 15:45:16 EST
From: danz at edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com (George Danz (919) 405-3632)
Subject: Re: Your 5L Kegs

Steve, 

I just answered this for Kevin below.  I'll also post to Brew Digest so
that others will benefit too.

George Danz

- ----- Begin Included Message -----

>From danz Wed Jan 18 15:42:00 1995
To: Kevin_D_Peffley at ccm.ch.intel.com
Subject: Re: Your 5L Kegs
Content-Length: 3025

Kevin,

The foam may be due to not backing off on the priming strength when kegging
versus bottling.  I've heard a number of people say they have gotten too 
much pressure when using 2/3 to 3/4 cup corn sugar per 5 gals. when putting 
this mix in kegs.  I would tend to agree, but I've never had destroyed kegs 
as some have stated they got. 

As to the kegs, you can get these anywhere (any brew shop) and even the 
grocery stores sell some beer in these kegs.  The bungs which come with
them are bigger than those normally sold at brewshops, and you have to be
superman to get 'em out when the keg's depleted.  Nevertheless they work
quite well in other respects.  The tap itself was purchased from 
BrewBetter Supply; 919-467-8934 (John and Mary Jo ... proprietors).  BrewBetter
has very fair prices and I highly recommend them.  You can tell 'em I sent
you.  They are located in Cary, NC, near Raleigh.

I have been to other brew shops too and have seen only German made taps.  The
cylinders, are another story, however.  You should buy the cylinders made for
the tap.  John and Mary Jo carry ONLY the correct cylinders (10 oz) so you
can't get it wrong.  The other brew shop I have visited tried to sell me the
crappy grey colored 8 oz. variety which fit God knows what kind of equipment.
Maybe some sort of American made selzer bottler, perhaps.

I use almost no bottles any more.  I batch in 10 gal. brew lengths and only
bottle about one case, mini kegging the rest.  Very soon I'll be putting half
my batches in 5 gal Korny kegs, with about 2.5 gals going in 5 L party kegs and
one case of bottles.  I only use bottles for taking to friends who are not
brewers and for gifts, occasionally.  For parties on my premises, I use party
kegs and the Korny setup.  16 oz. cylinders cost about $1.05 to $1.10 each at
John's, so it's about 11 bucks a box.  You can get amost one and a half -party
kegs pushed with only one 16 oz. cyl.  Before with the grey buggers, I'd be
lucky to drive one keg with 2 to 3 cylinders.  The problem with the grey 
buggers is that they puncture the seal in the cyl. before the rim of the cyl.
seals against the rubber (maybe plastic) washer in the tap.  About half or more
of the cylinder's contents escape before you can get the damn thing drien home.
You have to be damn fast twisting it home to avoid leaks.  In fact it is 
impossible not to lose quite a bit.  So I figure you have only about 2 oz of
CO2 left after the thing is put together.

Good luck


 -> From Kevin_D_Peffley at ccm.ch.intel.com Wed Jan 18 11:32:20 1995
 -> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 08:32:01 PST
 -> From: Kevin D Peffley <Kevin_D_Peffley at ccm.ch.intel.com>
 -> To: danz at edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com
 -> Subject: Your 5L Kegs
 -> Content-Length: 239
 -> 
 -> 
 -> Text item: Text_1
 -> 
 -> George,
 -> 
 -> Please tell me, where did you purchase your German made canisters and 
 -> tap?
 -> 
 -> I'm very disappointed and frustrated with my mini-keg system.  I primed 
 -> according to the directions, but all I get is foam.
 -> 
 -> Kevin 
 -> 


- ----- End Included Message -----


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Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:15:24 GMT
From: nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Subject: 5 litre mini kegs

on  15 Jan 1995 13:12:57 richard frederick hand writes

Need some advice from those who  have had experience with these kegs.
<snip.
The first one (customer)claims that the tap part leaks CO2 when a new
cartridge is first put in. He finds he has to use a lot of muscle to keep
it in place and to keep it from leaking until he replaces the cartidge
holder.<snip>
Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Maybe.  I use 40 litre Edme barrels.  The first time I used one I found
similar problems with leakage of pressure.  I then smeared vaseline over
all seals and joints.  I still do it up tight, and it has solved the
problem.  One cylander  (soda siphon bomb/bulb) now does mw for the whole
barrel normally.

I have noticed a a light oily looking film on the top of the contents when
I have finished the barrel, but it is not apparant in the glass or in the
flavour.  I put the vaseline on from a tube (hopefully more sterile than a
a jar) and then soak all the bits in Sodium metabisulphite as part of the
cleaning process, immediately before use.

(No commercial interests in vaseline, however admire its adaptability)

- --
Nigel Townsend
nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au
Tasmania, Auastralia



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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:45:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: heifeweizen recipe?

I'm looking for a decent extract-based recipe for a Heifeweizen such as
Weinhenstephan.  I've made a couple batches but they haven't turned out real
well.               Thanks, Mike

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 18:16:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Kemp <BOBKEMP at delphi.com>
Subject: 2 litre plastic bottles

On 17-JAN-1995 03:37:03.9 homebrew said to BOBKEMP
   > Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:36:07 -0500
   > From: cstrick at iu.net (Chris Strickland)
   > Subject: Use of 2 Liter Bottles
   > I've used two liter bottles many times without problems.  The only
   >drawback to the bottles is that you pretty much have to drink all of
   >the beer in one day.  The beer tends to taste flat after opening and
   >decanting some beer if left over
   > one day.

I've never used 2 litre bottles for homebrew (too worried about the
pressure).  But when I was a kid, my mother stored the plastic bottles upside
down to keep the CO2 from escaping.  Maybe this would work for you.

Bob Kemp  -  Miami, FL  -- Where criminals walk about freely

"Blessed are the Pessimists; for they hath made Backups."--Exasperated

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Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 11:11:51 +1100
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: PET and CO2 again

Joe says:
>Thank you all for clearing up the PET issue, now I feel guilty about my 
>lack of contibution!

On the contrary. There seem to be a number of differences of opinion
on this subject. Although there has been a qualitative description of how O2
can diffuse across PET bottles, nobody has answered the questions,
"How long can I leave my beer in a PET bottle before it stales?"
and, "How does this differ from glass?"

Brent says:
>Even though the laws of diffusion say that there is a force to
>equilibrate the concentration of each individual compound across
>a barrier,  the force created internally by the fermentation
>reaction is greater. ...<snip>....  Furthermore, if the O2 diffusion is
>slow,  the CO2 pressure will build up in a matter of days so that
>the ability to uptake other gases would be greatly reduced in a
>very short time, assuming of course that all seals are adaquate.

If this is true, then O2 will *not* diffuse across. Or you could
argue that the rate of transfer of gases equalises in both directions
keeping the bottle pressure approximately constant (ie. CO2 slowly
escapes overall, O2 slowly enters. Remember all gases will transfer
bidirectionally, but the rate is greater in one direction than the other.
What is important is the *rate* at which this actually takes place). In 
the meantime the O2 that enters could oxidise the beer!
It is difficult to ignore those pragmatists who say they have bottled 
the same beer side by side in PET and glass, and noticed a slight 
difference after 3 months. In any case, I'll try the experiment myself 
and report back later. On a similar line, how about soda kegs? 
They have a rubber o-ring that is bound to be more permeable to 
O2 than PET! (consider a helium balloon and how quickly the helium 
escapes. I know the helium atom is smaller again, but you get the idea). 

I think this is an issue most of us need not worry about too much,
especially if we heed Bob Paolino's advice often enough! If I
make a beer for keeping (eg. barley wine), I put it in glass
anyway.

Andy W









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Date:         Wed, 18 Jan 95 19:21:48 EST
From: Lisa Higginbotham <LHIGGI at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      Black gold Q?

John-
You didn't mention what the brew volume for the Black Gold Stout is-I assume it
's for 5 Gallons?

Lisa

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:49:46 -0700
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: Re: labels

My personal method of affixing labels uses a common kitchen ingredient:  Milk.
I put a little tiny bit of milk in a saucer and then wipe the back of each
label in the dish and stick it to the side of the bottle.  Actually this method
is swiped from a friend of mine, Chris Coslor, but it works.  For reasons
unknown to me the milk doesn't even make any nasty smells if left
unrefrigerated on the labels.  (I suspect that there just isn't very much milk
on the labels.)  These labels come off very easily in water (and you need to
wash bottles anyway before reusing them.)

 - shawn

Shawn Steele
Information Systems Administrator
Association of Brewers                 (303) 447-0816 x 118 (voice)
736 Pearl Street                       (303) 447-2825       (fax)
PO Box 1679                            shawn at aob.org        (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org         (aob info)


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 16:53:00 -0800 (PST)
From: David Allison 225-5764 <ALLISON.DAVID at A1GW.GENE.COM>
Subject: Iodophor/phosphoric acid


A while back I believe there was a thread regarding types of iodophor 
santizing reagents which contained phosphoric acid.  I picked up some 
Mikroklene from EcoLabs which contains the same iodine complex as the BTF 
iodophor that I get from the local HomeBrew shop.  The titratable iodine 
between the two products is basically the same, but the Mikroklene contains 
6.5% phosphoric acid.  For those of you in the know -- Is there a problem 
with this product because of the phosphoric acid?  Is there anything else 
to be aware of?  TIA

 - David
(allison2 at gene.com)



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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 20:32:26 -0500
From: JerryHamil at aol.com
Subject: Cancellation

Please take me off of your distribution list.

Thank you JerryHamil

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 20:49:24 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: D-C Aromatic Malt

In HBD #1633, Doug Flagg asks about experience with DeWolf-Cosyns
Aromatic malt.  I just brewed a batch based on a recipe from the CAMRA
book "Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home."  I substituted the Aromatic malt
for the Amber malt in the recipe and it is probably the best beer I have
made to date.  The recipe was from the Smile's Brewery Bitter and what I
put together was as follows:
  3.8 kg D-C Pale Ale Malt
  420  g D-C Aromatic Malt

Single temp infusion mash at 150 deg F; mash out at ~ 160 (got tired of
trying to get the temp up).

Boiled for 90 minutes.  Hopping was:
  66 g. East Kent Goldings  at  4.9% alpha acid for 90 minutes
  12 g. East Kent Goldings  at  4.9% alpha acid for 15 minutes

Also, added 1 Tbs rehydrated Irish Moss for the last 15 min of the boil.

O.G. was 1.052; the target was 1.037.  It was then that I realized the
recipe was for 23 liters (~6 U.S. gallons).  I fermented it out with
Wyeast 1028 (London Ale) and added ~1 gal of boiled & cooled water at
bottling to bring it more in line with expectations.  So, it seems to
work very well in a bitter as about 10% of the grist.  I has a nice
amber color; flavor is predominated by the hop bitterness but is rounded
out nicely by the good malt flavor (IMHO).
- --

Jim Grady
grady at an.hp.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 21:56 CST
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Chicago Brewing/Oxygen diffusion/Undeliverable messages

===> HOMEBRE973 at aol.com asks about Chicago Porter:

>Had two interesting beers last night at a local Mexican restaurant:
>Yong's SPecial London Ale  and Chicago Porter.  The Young's Special London
>was fantastic with a great malty flavor and mouth feel with a touch of
>diacetyl I love.  The Chicago Porter was quite good.  it had a nice
>smoothness and flavor to begin with but ended either a bit too bitter or
>slightly astingent.  I have not seen Chicago's beers here before.  Can anyone
>give a brief description of the brewery, styles, and their opinion of the
>quality of their brews?

I assume you're referring to Big Shoulders Porter brewed by Chicago
Brewing Company.  Chicago Brewing is a small, family run brewing
operation.  Our brew club took a tour of it a few months ago during a
pub crawl.  They have a large, commercial size lauter tun and kettle
along with a number of fermentation and settling/aging vessels.  They
purchased the assets of a New York brewing company and moved the
equipment to an old factory located in Chicago.  They also brew Legacy
Red Ale, Legacy Lager, and Heartland Weiss.  Their ale is more malty than
hoppy and was brewed long before the current craze of red beer took off.
I personally like all their beers.

===> Joseph E. Santos asks about oxygen permeation in plastic bottles:

>BTW, If I understand this correctly the pressure in the plastic bottle 
>would increase due to the excess O2 pressure. Could this be a cause for 
>concern?

At most, the pressure rise would only be about 3 psi, the partial
pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere (14.7 psi x 0.2 (20%)).  At the
same time oxygen is diffusing in, CO2 is diffusing out.  The change
in the internal pressure would be determined by the relative rates of
O2 and CO2 diffusion.

===> Is it me or does every issue of the HBD have one of these messages:

>Date: 16 Jan 1995 01:27:32 -0000
>From: Gateway at foxmail.gfc.edu (Gateway)
>Subject: NDN: Homebrew Digest #1632 (January 16, 1995)
>
>Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:
>
>Robert Hoover,George Fox College (The name was not found at the remote site.
>Check that the name has been entered correctly.)

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 23:19:43 -0500
From: Goldings at aol.com
Subject: Re: Brewing Techniques Subscript

Someone, sorry but I'm away from that HBD, asked about Brewing Techniques
Magazine, or BT.  BT is a magazine dealing with the art and science of
small-scale brewing. IMHO it is a very fine mag, more oriented toward the
technical side of advanced homebrewing and the pico/micro brewing than say
most of the lame issues of Zymurgy.
 It is published six times a year. Subscription rates are US $30/year within
the US, US $35/year in Canada, and US $45/year throughout the rest of the
world (airmail) Subsription info: P.O. Box 3222, Eugene, OR 97403, USA  To
order your subscription by plastic, call toll-free 1-800-427-2993  or E-mail
to btcirc at aol.com  
The last time I checked, they were adding an additional back issue of your
choice when you subscribed.  Hope this helps.


Dudley Leaphart      ||     The mud elephant    wading through the sea
   leaves no tracks

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 11:37:30 -0600
From: MValentiner at WinterNet.Com (MValentiner)
Subject: Alt and Kolsch H2O Profiles???

Does anyone have water profiles for Alt (Dusseldorf) and Kolsch (Koln)
styles?   Does anyone have references for this info?
Please reply via email.

- -- 
Michael Valentiner
MValentiner at WinterNet.Com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1635, 01/19/95