FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Czech Pilsner (Matt_K)
  Yeast file on r.c.b. (David Draper)
  Anyone from KCBM out there?? (Bob Paolino               Research Analyst)
  Rakes and iodophors (Jim Busch)
  sparge water/lightstruck?/cardboard/low-cost kegging setup (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Chicagoland Brew Clubs? (MURPHYJ)
  White Goobers in Suspension ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Irish Moss Scientific Name (Robert S Wallace)
  Brew problems -- infection? (Mario Robaina)
  Brew Problems -- infection? (Mario Robaina)
  Re:Species name:Irish moss (djt2)
  Re: Chipotle beer (Bill Vaughan)
  Great American Beer Festival (florida.1)
  Chipotle, source for ("Dean Kowalski")
  Upward infusions and cold ambient temps. (Art Steinmetz)
  Acquiring Irish Moss (Cary Kiest)
  Bitter is not better (PatrickM50)
  Chicago Brewclubs ("Robert W. Mech")
  Homebrew Shops, Insurance, Etc. ("Robert W. Mech")
  Philly area brew supplies ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  Microklene defended ("Lee Bussy")
  Re: American Brewers Guild Training (JDLEAP)
  Sodium Sulphites (Richard Hampo)
  RE:casks/priming (Jim Busch)
  RE: Yeast question?? ("Keith Royster")
  Sourdough, beer and lambic ("nancy e. renner")
  Hydrometers, oven sterilizing bottles, HSA during boil? ("nancy e. renner")
  Suds and other brewing software (Jody Justus)
  Re: points per lb/gallon (Spencer.W.Thomas)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 15:56:38 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Czech Pilsner

Message:
I'm forwarding this request to all of you for my  brew buddy who 
doesn't have access to the I-net.
 
Matt
Montreal

Hi fellow HBD'ers (even those of us who are internet-challenged). 
Coming to you through my
brew buddy / dive buddy/  interpreter, here's a question:  Can anyone 
out there come up with a
good all-grain recipe for a true Czech Pilzener (i.e. Urquell) . Many 
recipes claim to be " just like "
the real thing but seem to be missing the very fine technical details 
that make it authentic.

Other than Papazian (got em both) or Miller is there a reference 
source for lager specialized
techniques ? I'm looking for details on decoction mashing, which malts 
require it, or if step-mash
is good enough, pro's con's etc.

Any help appreciated, (IMHO, YMMV, No affiliations, etc etc)

Darryl,  lurking  at  Brewba-diving H.Q.

     "...welcome aboard the Calypso..."


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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 07:57:56 +1100 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Yeast file on r.c.b.

Dear Friends, I am very gratified to report that I have received around 35
requests for my yeast-culturing file so far.  Accordingly, I have just
posted it to the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup, and would ask that anyone
still interested who can get it there to please do so.  If you don't have
newsgroup access, I am still happy to email it out to you.

Andy Prine: I have been trying to mail it to you but it keeps
bouncing--try the r.c.b or get back to me for some other approach.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Give yeast a chance" ---Peter Graves
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:06:27 EST
From: Bob Paolino Research Analyst <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Anyone from KCBM out there??                                     


I'd like forms for the KCBM competition.  Please send me a note.  TIA

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:26:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Rakes and iodophors

I forgot to answer the rakes question last week.

Rake'ing (or knifing) the lauter is merely using a long thin
device to cut verticle channels through the grain bed in the 
lauter tun.  I use the handle end of a long SS spoon.  I like
to cut in a pie shape pattern, be sure not to cut deep to the
filter bed, stay a few inches above this.  Lauter tuns have
rakes installed in the better breweries to do this, it helps
to remove the spent grains, lift overly compacted grain beds,
and keep hard to lauter beds from becoming stuck.

Zeek asks:

<The titratable iodine 
<between the two products is basically the same, but the Mikroklene contains 
<6.5% phosphoric acid.  For those of you in the know -- Is there a problem 
<with this product because of the phosphoric acid?  Is there anything else 
<to be aware of?"

<I talked with a
<technical service rep there who told me that this product is not FDA
<approved.

Interesting, Ive been using this stuff for a while now.  I do rinse.  It
is meant for sanitation of food prep surfaces.  I guess means little
as to FDA approved, but if you ask me, it had the same chemical 
composition as what is used in my local micro.  Id say use it.

<What is the best way to clear a
<beer that is cloudy from what I presume are proteins?  Are finings such as
<isinglass, geletain, and polyclar used for this, or do these clear haze due
<only to yeast?  Lastly, will overdoing a protein rest ( at 128+ deg.), sugar
<rest, or fining be a detriment to head retention?

A rest at 128F using pale ale malt will certainly make a clearer beer,
one that will not taste too good, either.  Finings like Isinglass, are
actually *foam positive*, ie, they increase the foam stand on a beer, 
really!  Polyclar will latch on to large proteins and settle them out,
if your beer has enough medium proteins, your foam will still be OK.
Have you tried real cold conditioning, for 2 weeks at 31F?  THis will
drop many beers clear.  BTW, isinglass drops yeast by a electrostatic
charge effect, followed by mass accretion, which causes sedimentation.
Polyclar drops proteins.  If you have a real vigorous boil and are 
careful in leaving the hot trub in the kettle, then protein haze using
pale ale malts is not a normal problem.

<I am wondering if my recirculation is not effective because of my shallow
grain bed depth in my lauter tun.  I use a ten gal. stainless pot w/ false
bottom.  My grain depth is about 6 inches for 10 lbs of grain.  What is the
optimal bed depth and what is the minimum?

This sounds OK, but it is shallow.  Should work fine.  You can always
mash more malt, making a barley wine and see if it works better.

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: 23 Jan 95 15:27:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: sparge water/lightstruck?/cardboard/low-cost kegging setup

Jerry writes:
>1. I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but... when sparging, do you want 
>the water to be 170 F, or do you want the temp of the grist raised to 
>170F ? I'm planning my first all-grain batch soon, and it seems like I'm 
>more confused than ever! How important is it to have the correct PH 
>sparge water?

Actually, pH is more important than temperature when it comes to minimizing
tannin extraction from the husks.  I've wondered about your first question
for quite some time.  Commonly, homebrewers usually use 170F sparge water
and ignore the temperature of the grain bed itself.  Then there's the radicals
like Jack Schmidling who question all perfectly good procedures.  Jack uses
boiling water and has measured his grain bed as being somewere just below
170F, if memory serves.  I still question if this is a good idea since all
the pros who I've asked, use 170F water.  When it comes to measureing pH,
you don't want to measure the pH of the sparge water (unless you are curious),
but rather the pH of the runnings and the mash.  You want to keep the mash
pH below 6.0 or so.  The mash pH will slowly rise if you keep adding water
(even distilled water), because you are draining away the stuff that brought
the pH down into the 5.2-5.7 range during the mash.  Check your mash pH
periodically during the sparge and acidify your sparge water if the pH begins
to approach 6.0.

>2. Do I have to worry about my beer getting "lightstruck" while its 
>sitting in the secondary waiting to be bottled? I keep reading how beer 
>can be skunked "in a matter of seconds".

Yes, you do have to keep it out of bright sunlight and/or fluorescent light.
It will take more than a few seconds, but depending on the strength of the
light, it could be a short as a few minutes.

>3. Do you guys actually chew on cardboard to see what it tastes like?! 
>Also, does wet cardboard taste different than dry cardboard??! :*)

Most of flavour is in the aroma.  We only taste sweet, salty, sour and bitter,
but coupled with the hundreds (thousands?) of aromas we can distinguish, we
can perceive many, many flavours.  The aroma of wet cardboard is quite familiar
and is indeed quite close to the smell of oxidized beer.  When I was teaching
my cousin how to judge beer, before I taught him the "wet cardboard" moniker,
he called it "the back of a liquor store" aroma.

***********
M.K. writes:
>I recently acquired my first Cornelius keg (Coke)  -  from a local
>dumpster.  According to a homebrew supply shop, the accouterments  - CO2
>canister, gauge, and tap - will cost over $120.  Does anybody out there in
>brew-land know of a less-expensive way of kegging?  Are used parts
>acceptable? Or should I just figure that if I want to dispense with bottles
>I'm going to have to pay?

$120 for CO2 tank, gauge, connectors, hoses and faucet (What most people,
incorrectly call a "tap" is actually a "faucet."  A "tap" is the connector
that plugs into a Sankey, Golden Gate or Hoff-Stevens keg.) is probably a
used CO2 tank already.  A new 5-pound CO2 tank will set you back at least
$80-90.  Plastic connectors are usually $4-6 each, hose is about $1/foot,
the faucet is about $4-6.  Stainless steel connectors will run about $10-12
each, if you would rather use them instead of the plastic ones.  A regulator
is about $30-40 new and I recommend going with a new one -- it's the most
important part of the system.  You can find used CO2 tanks occasionally at
fire extinguisher places, but make sure it has a recent certification (CO2
tanks must be certified (hydrotested) every 5 years or the refillers won't
touch them).  Finally, the one place you can save money in a kegging system
is to stick to a single-gauge regulator in place of a two-gauge one.  The
high pressure gauge will show between 700 and 800 psi (depending on the
temperature) until all the liquid CO2 in the tank turns to gas.  Then you've
only got maybe a dozen or so pints left before the tank runs out.  No,
weighing the tank is the way to tell how much is left.  A 5-pound tank will
last between 5 and 20 batches, depending on how much CO2 you use for
non-dispensing tasks like purging carboys, and will weigh *5 pounds* more
when it is full than when it is empty.  So, although you might be able to
get all the equipment for $100 if you shop around, you probably will only
save $10 once you add shipping and if something fails, it's probably better
if you bought it locally.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:57:32 -0600
From: MURPHYJ at ada.org
Subject:  Chicagoland Brew Clubs?

On Jan. 20,  1995  "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net> wrote

>First off, there seems to be only a few brewclubs in the chicagoland
>area.  None of which seem very local to me.  I have been thinking over
>the idea for a while of getting some people together, and starting our
>own club.  Has anyone here started thier own brewclub?  Whats
>involved?
>Is it a good idea to have somone thats a "Brew God" in the club?  I
>consider myself a rather advanced all grain brewer, but *FAR* from
>knowing all there is to know about beer brewing...  Can anyone help me
>with this?

Rob,

I'm just starting Homebrewing and don't know what  Brew Clubs are in
the Chicagoland area. I'm in the Chicagoland area (N.W. Suburbs) and I
have a few friends that have been brewing for only a couple of years.
So none of us are "Brew gods" either. But I and they might be interested
in joining a club. Could you enlighten me (and potentially any other
Chicagoland subscribers of the HBD) about those clubs? And if you start
one about yours?

Thanks.

Joe Murphy
MurphyJ at ADA.ORG





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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 15:19:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: White Goobers in Suspension


Yesterday we brewed an English Ordinary (see p. 47, Victory Beer Recipes)
in which we used the recommended amt of Irish moss.  After pitching the
Wyeast 1028 (?) London ale yeast we pumped the beer into the fermenter.
After witnessing the incredible spectacle of huge flocs precipitating out to
form a 2" thick layer of sponge on the bottom, the beer appeared to be
quite free of suspended material.

Today, my associate called to report the beer is now a suspension of
"millions" of little stringy, gooey looking snow-white particles (we have
labeled them "goobers", for now), in a highly turgid state.  He says gas
emanating from the airlocks (two carboys) smells wonderfully like beer.

Given we used about 1/2 lb of wheat malt, the 1028 yeast, and the Irish
moss, does this bizarre phenomenon seem normal.  Are we getting rope?
We've brewed many times and imbibed much, but have yet to see this or
read about it..  Have we angered the Beer Gods?

Kirk R Fleming
 - flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 - BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:27:57 CST
From: Robert S Wallace <rwallace at iastate.edu>
Subject: Irish Moss Scientific Name

Jim Cave <CAVE at PASC.ORG> asks about the scientific name for Irish Moss used
in brewing.  

     The brown alga (Division Phaeophyta) typically used for homebrewing is
Chondrus crispus, a sessile form which attaches to rocks and other
substrates, generally in the intertidal zone (or below) by means of a
holdfast.  It is photosynthetic (chlorophylls a and c), and produces a
number of polysaccharides, among them carageenan which is used not only in
brewing but as an emuslifier in paint, processed ice cream, and in some pie
fillings (along with modified starches!).  The properties of the carrageenan
in solution assist in clarifying the beer by attracting and binding proteins
(and perhaps other haze causing molecules in solution/suspension), and
precipitating them with the hot/cold break.

    Other brown algae (and some red algae) are commonly used as food in many
oriental cultures (i.e 'nori'; one of my standard "in class" field trips
includes my bringing a bowl of hot and sour soup to class and picking out the
algae and eating it...  students never forget when they see the warped
professor doing this kind of thing..... Guess what subject gets brought up
when I talk about fungi and yeasts.....!! [unfortuately, no samples of this
in class!]). 

     Good Brewing!

     Rob Wallace

- ---
Robert S. Wallace
Assistant Professor of Botany                     "In cerevisiam veritas est."
Dept. of Botany - Iowa State Univ.
Ames, Iowa 50011-1020             rwallace at iastate.edu       FAX: 515-294-1337
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_ooo000ooo_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:57:14 -0800 (PST)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: Brew problems -- infection?


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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:01:02 -0800 (PST)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: Brew Problems -- infection?

Here's the problem.  Last two beers, one a Bass look-a-like, one
a Steam.  Both tasted OK going into the secondary.  Bass was
London Ale Yeast, steam was California Lager.  By bottling time,
both had pronounced diacetyl aroma and flavor.  Bass has been in
the bottle for around a month and a half and has mellowed a
little, but still has lots of butter, and some new problems,
including bubble-gum/fruity aromas, and a horrible bitterness
when aerated in the mouth.  Much to my surprise and dismay, the
Steam (bottled two days ago) had a very similar flavor profile,
although it is (as yet) less pronounced.  Both were fermented
around 68. Temp may have strayed into the low 70s, but I have a
tough time believing it was ever over 75.  Procedure was sound --
cooled wort quickly, lag time only 12-15 hours for both.

What's going on?! Infection?  I understand Pediococus (sp?) is
one of the only diacetyl producing infectors, but it is a lactic
acid bacteria, no?  I don't have any sourness that I would
associate with lactic acid.  The fact that Ped. kicks in late in
fermentations does fit my problem, however (both tasted good
originally).

Any thoughts?  If it is an infection, should I switch santizers (I've been 
using household bleach to date)?  What's good at erradicating Ped. (if 
that's what it is)?

Thanks,
John
(through Mario:  sprmario at netcom.com)

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 18:29:58 -0500
From: djt2 at po.cwru.edu
Subject: Re:Species name:Irish moss

>From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
>Subject: Species name:Irish moss
>
>        Does anyone (Botanist) know the species name of Irish moss
>Carageenan.  I live in B.C. where numerous species of algae are found
>I suspect that there is a species here that should mimic its
>clarifying qualities.  At $4 an ounce, it may be economically viable!
>

The Sigma catalog lists several forms of carrageenan, the cheapest being
made from "various seaweeds" One family name listed is Gigartina sp. ,
which is used to make the lambda form. The iota form comes from Eucheuma
spinosa.

Give it a go with the local variety, Jim!

BTW, this might be the first time that Sigma prices come out inexpensive:
1 kg of (cat # C10130 Type1 carrageenan) is $72.60, or about $2.75 an ounce.

Oh, Sigma products are clearly labelled "Not for household use".

dennis



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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 17:28:15 -0800
From: bill at oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Re: Chipotle beer

Last year I made a truly amazing smoked beer from peated malt.  I split the
batch into three parts.  One of the three was allowed to ferment down from
the OG of about 1060 and made a nice smoky pale bock.  (Very smoky.)  The
second part I diluted before fermentation to an OG of 1042 to make an
ordinary smoked beer -- not too great.  The third part I also diluted
before fermentation -- I don't have my notes handy but I think the OG was
about 45 -- and added several dried chipotles to the secondary.  Wow!  The
smoke from the peated malt and the smoke from the chipotles complement each
other very well.  It's a little hotter than I like a chile beer to be (I
like them mild -- your mileage may vary), but not at all undrinkable by
itself.  Of course, like all chile beers, it's wonderful with hamburgers.
The detailed recipe should be in my brewing notes; if there is any demand
for it I can post it.



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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 00:46:00 UTC
From: florida.1 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Great American Beer Festival

Anybody know when the next Great American Beer Festival is?
 
 ...Ken

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Date: 24 Jan 95 12:27:00 AUS_WST
From: "Dean Kowalski" <KOWALSKI at clgwp.sin.mrms.navy.mil>
Subject: Chipotle, source for

Living in Asia one finds mail order is the only way to go sometimes. A 
good place to get chipotle chile pods and many other chiles and spices
is PENDERY'S 1-800-533-1870 or 1221 Manufacturing, Dallas TX 75207.
A 4 oz. package costs $4.35 and is over 50 pods so one package will
go a long ways.  Since I can't brew beer here, against the law, I only
use them for cooking. As the catalog states "Whole jalapeno, snoke dried 
with heavenly aroma and marvelous flavor. Add warmth to chiles, stews 
and in cream soups". Chop one up and add it to a pot of rice and even
people that say they don't like rice will ask for seconds.
Give Pendery's a call and get their catalog, reading it is an education
about chiles and spices.

Dean in S'pore


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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 23:56:05 -0500
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Upward infusions and cold ambient temps.

Jim Busch busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov sez:

> I believe that when Fix suggests using such
>low temp rests, he is using a very thick dough in followed by boiling
>water infusions to rapidly jump temps.

I have done several upward infusions using the Lewis American malt "Lo-Hi"
sacchrification rests with great success.  In result, not in convenience.  I
add a 120F protein rest since I typically use 1lb of wheat malt in at 10lb
grain bill.  I use a Gott 48 w/copper manifold mash/lauter tun.  Upward
infusion is tough since even with a thick starter mash (0.75qt/lb) you wind
up with a huge volume of liquid.  Regardless of the chemical implication of
the thinness of the final step the thermal intertia of this volume makes
getting to mash-out or even to the final sugar rest a pain.  Increasing
volumes of boiling water are required.  Cold air temps complicate things
further. I brewed outdoors yesterday with 34F ambient and I ran out of
cooler volume and had to transfer everything to the kettle and apply heat to
get to the final rest and mash-out.

Conclusions:   Limit upward infusions to situations with 60F+ air temps.
Avoid more than two steps, in any case.  I plan to build one of them thar'
pressure cooker steam generator to allow heat application inside my Gott cooler.
- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com
72044,3204 at compuserve.com


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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 21:07:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Cary Kiest <kiestc at CSOS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Acquiring Irish Moss

I've been reading the recent thread on Irish Moss (growing your own, 
harvesting your own, harvesting a substitute species) and am surprised at 
some of the reported prices being paid for this stuff.  For example, 
Kendall Coolidge writes (#1637):

> Given the price locally, I think I save about a dollar a
> batch!

and Jim Cave writes (#1638):

> ... At $4 an ounce, it may be economically viable!

Assuming that Kendall brews five gallon batches, and that Jim isn't 
confusing Irish Moss with something illicit, I'd have to say that these 
prices are rather steep.

Here's something that might help.  I've been purchasing Irish Moss from 
William's Brewing for a while now and their price is currently set at 
$3.50 per 4 oz. bag (price good through February 28, 1995).  Call 
800-759-6025 for orders and catalog requests.

DISCLAIMER:  My affiliation with William's Brewing is limited to 
(satisfied) customer status, so RDWHAHB.

Cary Kiest
kiestc at csos.orst.edu


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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:35:07 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Bitter is not better

I seem to remember reading about a problem with unusually bitter brew here a
while ago, but didn't think much about it at the time 'cuz I had never
experienced it myself.  Well guess what!  I just tried my first all grain
batch after 2 weeks in the bottle and there is an *extremely* bitter-like
taste that I have not experienced before.  No real flavor to the bitterness -
just extreme harshness that lingered (or rather latched!) on long after I
threw away the remaining contents of my glass.  I was making a steam-type
(California Common) *ale* with Kolsch yeast (#2565) that started out at 1.043
and finished at 1.011.  A total of 1.75 oz. of Northern Brewer was spread
throughout the 60 min. boil with 1 oz. of Cascade tossed in for the final 5
min.  Also the head is pretty thin and big-bubbly.

Now I really don't know what flavor profile is referred to by the common
references to *wet cardboard* but could this be it?  Anybody else experience
this problem or is it simply part of the initiation rites for the first-time
all-grain brewer?

Now if I could only find a piece of cardboard . . .

Thanks for any and all responses from your (our) collective wisdom.
Pat Maloney

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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:26:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Chicago Brewclubs

Surprisingly enough, I got 3 responses from people intersted in starting 
a new brewclub, after my post about me pondering the thought of starting 
one.  For those of you that looked over the post before and said "Well 
lets just see what turns up", here is my followup...

All those interested in starting a new brewclub in the chicagoland area, 
specificly the schaumburg/elk grove area.  Please email me.  Id like to 
see if we can meet somewhere inbetween Schaumburg, and Streamwood.  So 
far ive yet to find one in this area, Club Wort being the closest in 
Palatine, and Urban Knaves of Grain the next closest in Naperville.  I 
really think the area could profit by having another one. :-).  Those of 
you in the schaumburg area that would be willing to help start a homebrew 
club, please feel free to email me, along with anything you may be able 
to contribute to the club. . . Accounting skills, etc...

Thanks!

Rob

My apologies to those who dont live in the chitown area, and had to have 
this message waste bandwith in the HBD.

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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 04:18:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Homebrew Shops, Insurance, Etc.

> 
> Hardly legal or scientific but I understand that beer was *the* drink (three
> times a day) in the middle ages because it was safer than the local water
> supply.
> 
> John Faulks

Im curious what they made the beer with then..  Evian? :-)
- -----

> I am building a bar in a second floor loft of my home. My keg refrigerator
 is in
> a utility room on the first floor. I am planning on running the beer 
lines from
> the refrigerator up to the bar. The total distance is about 25 to 30 feet 
with
> about 15 feet of this vertical. Does anyone see a problem with this? Will
 I
> be able to pressurize the kegs enough to get a good flow up at the bar? 
I am
> planning on running the lines inside an insulated tubing. Will I still 
have 
> problems keeping it cold?
> 

Well, it will get warm sitting in the hose for a long time, plus look at 
all that WASTED beer!  Unless you are using VERY THIN hose, you are going 
to have to waste a ton of beer to get to the cold stuff.  Even if it 
flows well, I dont know if I could waste that much beer and not feel 
guilty.   

- -----
> 
> WARNING:
> 
> I advise folks to be mightly careful with any steam generating
> apparatus they might build and use.  If a solenoid (for example)
> fails, be certain other failsafe mechanisms shut down production
> and relieve steam pressure (if any).  Things like modified pressure
> cookers can be deadly--no joke.  I think it's important also for
> those of us who build equipment to remember our insurance
> companies will have us for lunch if we try to make claims for any
> damages occuring as a result of using homemade burners and
> boilers, etc., IMHO.
> 
> Kirk R Fleming
>  - flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
>  - BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.
> 

Im curious what the insurance companies actualy would think.  Considering 
that there is really no crime or stipulation in most insurance policies 
for modification of hosehold items.  I would imagine that this would come 
down to whether or not you were negligant.  IMHO the insurance companies 
would have a hard time proving this if you were that advanced enough of a 
brewer to be using these techniques.  However, given that you should have 
enough brains to keep accidents like that from happening anyhow.

- ------

> Brewing Beer, I believe on Belmont, Chicago.
> Evanston 1st Liquor, Evanston
> Heartland Hydroponics, Vernon Hills
> also, I think Chicago Indoors is going to open a store in Chicago (if  
> they haven't already).
> Various other liquor stores sell ingredients and equipment.
> 
> This isn't meant to be a recommendation, just pointing out that  
> Chicago has LOTS of homebrew supply resources. I still do a lot of  
> mail order for price and specific needs.
> 

I have found in my experience that Chicago Indoor is overpriced in alot 
of things.  The Brewers Coop in naperville has better prices on alot of 
hardware, were as CIGS has cheaper prices on grain, yeast, etc. . .  I 
shop at both stores.  Heres  A small price comparason on a few things.

Item		Coop		CIGS
- ------------------------------------
BB Caps (144)	1.79		2.45
Grolsh Gaskets  5.10		5.95
Hydrometer	3.49		4.50
Hyd. Glass T.J. 2.39		3.50
Bottles 24/12	7.99		8.65

There are some things CIGS is cheaper on than the coop, mostly grains and 
malts.  However for hardware the coop is the place to go.  I shop at 
both, and I have no affiliation with either, just satisfied customers of 
both.  The phone numbers for each are as follows

Chicago Indoor Garden Supply. 	1-800-444-2873
The Brewers Coop		1-800-451-6348



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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 7:26:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: Philly area brew supplies

Hello everyone.  I bought my brother a brew kit for Xmas, and he had his
first homebrew last night.  He loved it.  Another one hooked!!!
	Anyway, he lives in Northeast Philadelphia and wants to know
where he can purchase homebrewing supplies in the area.  Please send me
private email if you know of any places, and I'll forward them to him.
TIA.

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov

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Date:          Tue, 24 Jan 1995 06:44:23 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Microklene defended

Zeek67 writes in #1638 that Microklene (Ecolab's Iodine based 
sanitizer) was not approved for food service.

Zeek, let me know who it was that told you that as my brewing buddy 
would love to know.  

Mikroklene was designed for food service applications, and is FDA 
approved for no rinse applications on surfaces, plates, utensils, etc. 
at 12.5 ppm.  

>From trade literature:

"When used as directed, MIKROKLENE complies with FDA Food Additive 
Reg. 21 CFR 178.1010 (b) (4) for sanitizing solutions which are not 
rinsed from food contact surfaces."

and:

EPA Reg. No. 1677-22

I did find out why the phosphoric acid (which is food grade).  Also 
from trade lit:

"MIKROKLENE is stable in storage.  It is buffered against alkaline 
water supplies.  At a concentration of 12.5 ppm titratable iodine, 
MIKROKLENE has been tested and shown to be an efective sanitizer up 
to pH 7.5."

Also for those who wonder if they can re-use the solution:

"MICROKLENE has a built in germicidal indicator; germicidal 
effectiveness remains as long as the amber color of the solution is 
present."

As usual..... no financial interest, just someone who uses the hell 
out of it.

Zeek, let me know which office told you that.

Well, sorry about the excessive bandwidth but I hate it when someone 
says something with no reference to back it up so I wanted to hit all 
the bases.

- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 16:41:39 cst
From: JDLEAP at ccmail.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: American Brewers Guild Training

   In HBD 1638, Doug Flagg asked if anyone had attended the American Brewers
   Guild advanced homebrewers seminars.

   Doug, I attended the seminars that were held last December in Seattle.
   IMHO they are geared more towards the brewer ready to make the transition
   to all grain or the beginning all grainer. If a person has much
   experience with all grain brewing, I think you are better off spending
   the money on a new brew kettle or keg system instead of spending it on
   ABG.  I'm not saying that the seminars aren't ok, they are, but they are
   not for the "advanced" home brewer. I did learn some new things and we
   did get to sample some brews and I did meet some new folks, but...  There
   might be some other folks out there that have taken them and have
   different opinions, so be it.  Doug, if you get private mail on this, you
   might give us a summary later.

   Dudley Leaphart
   Goodgulf Brewing


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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 16:38:15 EST
From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Richard Hampo)
Subject: Sodium Sulphites

Howdy,

I'm a relatively new homebrewer 
(I've shared in production of about a dozen batches)
and I have a general sanitizing question.
I've always used sulphites of sodium for sanitizing
everything (because the person that I brewed with
used it). It smells really toxic, but rinses right away.
Lots of books/posts/... say bleach is
a popular choice. However, I find that the bleach smell
is really hard to get rid of, and I don't want my beer 
smelling or tasting like the neighborhood swimming
pool. Should continue to use sulphites (which are 
certainly more expensive, but not prohibitively so)
or am I worrying about nothing? Is there any difference
in their effectiveness? We have never had any problems
with spoiling (except of course when my partner left the beer
in an unsealed primary fermenter for 6 weeks....)


Thanks,

Richard Hampo
H & H Brewing Ltd.
"Engineering a Better Brew, Legally!"


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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:10:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE:casks/priming

Kirk asks:

<What is the distinction (for American amateurs) between
cask conditioning and priming in the keg?  The terms seem
to be synonymous as I've seen them used.

Mostly in the degree of carbonation/volumes of CO2 in solution.
Most homebrewers who keg prime use about 1/2-3/4 cup of some
type of fermentables to achieve the 2-2.5 volumes of gas that
many like in a fizzy ale.  In cask ales, the numbers are closer 
to 1.3-1.5 volumes, and I use about 1/4 cup of ordinary table
sugar.  Another distinction is the use of cask hops.  I like to
add between 1/4 and 1 oz of hops to the cask at kegging time,
along with the sugar and a dose of isinglass.  The isinglass 
ensures a clear pint.  Another major difference between cask
ales is that most traditional cask ales are quite low in alcohol
compared to our ales.  Ordinary bitter is only 3-4% ABV.  This,
when combined with a real beer engine results in a poundable
session beer.  It is important to vent the cask prior to dispense,
since beer engines push the ale through a sparkler, and if too
much CO2 is dissolved, all you get is foam.  

Its great to see that more brewpubs are istalling engines!
- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date:          Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:31:31 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       RE: Yeast question??

In HOMEBREW Digest #1639, Todd S. Taylor asked about adverse effects 
of drastic temperature changes to yeast and also if there is a 
formula for mixing two different temperatures of water and predicting 
the final temp.

To the first question:  If you activate the yeast in a cup at 100F 
and then dump them in a the primary fermentor at 55F, I think two 
adverse things could happen.  One, the drastic temp. change will 
shock the yeast.  Two, the final temp. of 55F is too cold.  Even for 
lager yeast which ferments at about 55F, you want to start it out at 
about 65F to get the yeast started well.  Remember, one of your best 
defenses against baceria infecting your beer (second only to 
sanitation) is to give the yeast a huge head start.  I would try to 
activate my yeast at about 80 to 90F and pitch them into a wort which 
is about 75 to 80F, then let this cool down to the proper temp.  
Shocking your yeast and then starting them at 55F gives other 
organisms an extra edge on the yeast.

To the second question:  It is simply a matter of simple algebra (for 
a good estimation).  If you mix A gallons of wort at X temp. with B 
gallons of water at Y temp. then the resultant temp will be 
(approximately)  (AX+BY) / (A+B).  For example, say you boil 3 
gallons of wort that your going to mix with 2 gallons of tap water at 
a known 50F and you want to pitch the yeast in the final 5 gallons at 
80F.  What do you need to cool your wort down to?

(3X+2(50)) / 5 = 80   so X=100F

While this is an estimation (the difference in the density of wort to 
tap water changes things a little) it is a good one.
Keith Royster

Work:                            Home:
NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy           720 Pinewood Circle
919 North Main St.               Mooresville, NC 28115
Mooresville, NC 28115            Voice: (704) 663-1098
Voice: (704) 663-1699            
Fax:   (704) 663-6040

n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us     

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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:02:56 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Sourdough, beer and lambic

(From *Jeff* Renner)

A note on brewing and sourdough, from a brewer and baker.

A week ago or so, Dave Sanderson said:

>I have a wild yeast that was captured in Alaska 100 years <snip> has
>anyone tried a wild "sourdough" yeast for brewing? 

Actually, Dave, what you have is not *a* wild yeast but a mixed culture of
yeasts and bacteria, especially Lactobacillus spp. and Acetobacter spp. 
Almost certainly it is not the same mix as Sourdough Jack was given years
back, or even what you got 15 years ago.  Every time you add flour, you
are also adding a huge innoculum of yeast and bacteria spores that are
present in the flour. Furthermore, the resident microflora in your locale
also develop. Back in the 70's, I read two seminal dissertations on San
Francisco sour dough (written at UC Davis).  In one of them, a new
bacteria was described, Lactobacillus sanfrancisco, as being present in SF
sour dough, as well as a wild yeast and other critters.  These were
synergistic.  A commercial aim of the research was to propagate this for
use in other areas, but it was discovered that local microflora always
displaced the SF in a short time. Three years ago or so, another local
baker friend of mine visited Poilane in Paris (see Jan.,1995 Smithsonian
Magazine cover article) and brought back their starter, which he shared
with me.  The first batch or two was absolutely Parisian, but this
changed.  It is still the best starter I've ever had, but it is now "Ann
Arbor sour dough."  It is still typically French in that it is not very
sour, as opposed to SF. 

Back to the original question.  Sour dough beer would probably be a
pseudo-lambic of sorts.  To turn things around, how about bread from a
lambic? Dan McConnell sent several sterile wort samples with a friend who
was visiting Brussels last winter.  He exposed these to the night air and
brought them back. Dan grew them up and plated them out, and has shared
them with some brewers who have made p-lambics from them.  One of them,
Eric Urquhart at Simon Fraser University in BC, also baked with this
starter.  The dough took a long time to rise, however, so in e-mail
correspondence I suggested to him that he use dechlorinated water.  This
doubled the dough activity.  It has been my experience that when I share
my starter with students on city (chlorinated) water, the starter poops
out in several generations.  This may have ramifications for p-lambic
brewers, and perhaps brewers in general. 

As a sour dough starter works out, it separates, and the old timers called
the sour, alcoholic liquid on top "hooch," often the only alcohol, however
nasty, they had out in the desert.  A favorite story of mine, which I
always tell my bread students during the sour dough session: 

It seems a weary traveler across the Great American Desert a hundred years
ago spotted a campfire at dusk, and, eager for human companionship, headed
for it, reaching it just at dark.  It was an old sour dough prospector,
who likewise welcomed the company.  He invited the traveler for dinner,
saying he'd just stir some more flour into the biscuit dough.  After
supper, the prospector got out his starter and poured off the hooch into
an old, battered tin cup.  He passed it across to the traveler, saying,
"Have a snort."  The traveler declined, whereupon the sour dough pulled
out his Winchester, cocked it and said, "When I offer a man a drink, he
dang well takes a drink!"  The traveler choked down the vile liquid, and
the prospector uncocked the rifle, slid it butt first over to the
traveler, and said, "Now you hold the rifle on me and make me take a
drink!" 

Jeff Renner in Ann arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:08:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Hydrometers, oven sterilizing bottles, HSA during boil?

>From *Jeff* Renner

About calibrating hydrometers.  The accuracy of many of these is
abominable, but they are generally precise.  I imagine the problem is
getting the paper scale placed accurately in the glass tube.  The last
time I bought one (I break them about every two years), I took my sampling
tube and thermometer and tested a bunch with 60^F tap water.  (Tap water
is low enough in dissolved solids to be sufficiently close to 1.000, I
checked when I got home).  One read 1.008!  Many read in the 1.003 - 5
range.  Strangely, out of about ten, only one read low - .998.  It took
about ten until I found one that read 1.000.  I spoke to the importer, and
he said that getting ones that were more accurate cost more than it was
worth.  I imagine that they just absorb the cost of returned ones.  So
test and return, or add the correction.  If the paper scale is correct,
the correction factor should apply across the range. 

***
About oven sterilizing bottles.  If they are cooled too quickly, they will
be weakened.  The trick is to let them cool over many hours, as is done in
the manufacturing process.  This is easy for me - I have a commercial
pizza oven with four inches of insulation on the walls and bottom and
eight on the top, and with a two inch thick stone hearth.  It will easily
hold three cases of 16 oz. longnecks.  I heat it to ~250^F (someone posted
that they use 350^ - this is unnecessarily hot) and turn it off to cool
overnight.  They are still warm the next morning.  This could be done in a
home oven by reducing the temp every hour or so.  Overnight is probably
overkill. 

***
Jerry Nelson asks why HSA isn't a problem during vigorous boil.  The
rising bubbles, I assume you know, are steam, not air, and even though the
wort is constantly being exposed to the space above the wort surface, this
is virtually all steam, not air. 

Jeff Renner in Ann arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 08:37:22 -0800
From: jjustus at netcom.com (Jody Justus)
Subject: Suds and other brewing software

Is there an archive site on the net where I can find the latest release
of Suds for Windows or is it only available through Compuserve?  Also, has 
anyone used any brewing packages they like better than Suds?

E-mail is fine, and I'd be happy to post a summary.

Many thanks

 - -- J

Jody Justus
jjustus at netcom.com


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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 11:53:15 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: points per lb/gallon

George Danz wrote about points per lb/gallon: 

 > I'm assuming that if in a 10 gallon batch, my OG reads 1.052 (for
 > example) and I have used 17 lbs of grain to get there, that my
 > extraction rate (Homebrew method) is:
 > 
 > 	100 * 52/[#lbs * #gals.] = 52/[17lbs * 10gals.] = 30.6
 > 	

Nope.  Points * Gals / lbs: 52 * 10 / 17 = 30.6

Why is it the same number?  Because of your factor of 100: 100 / 10 = 10.

 > {The 100 at the beginning, used to get extraction in percent}

But the answer is NOT in percent, it's in "point-gallons/lb"

Just for the fun of it, let me justify my equation.  The "points" in
your SG says that you have a certain amount of sugar dissolved *per
volume* of liquid.  Multiplying by the volume (10 gallons) gives the
total amount of dissolved sugar.  Dividing by the weight of grains
gives the amount of sugar you've extracted from each pound of grain.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1640, 01/25/95