FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  where to get CO2 tanks / cask conditioning (How come the future takes such a long time to come when you're waiting for a miracle  25-Jan-1995 0928 -0500)
  Cheap Erlenmeyer flasks; Oatmeal Stout; Cat's Meow 3 ("Harralson, Kirk")
  AFCHBC Contest Announcement (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Stout Substitutions (M.Marshburn/D202)
  Philly area HB shops ("Peter Gothro")
  all grain-taking the plunge (ray fugitt)
  Bleeding excess pressure from 5l mini kegs (david lawrence shea)
   ("Davis G. Hunt")
  kegging problems (Kyle Kotwica)
  tampa bp/miss outlaw/kegging ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Misc Topics ("Houseman, David L [TR]")
  Chile Beer recipe wanted... (Steven M Verdekel)
  Brewing a PU clone ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Re: Sourdough beer (Bill Vaughan)
  D-C Belgian Pale/Munich Malt/Lager Starters ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Fermentap vs Brewcap & a question ("Dave Ebert")
  Ultimate Czech Pilsner (Don Rudolph)
  Decoction/Grain Bed Depth/Mash-out and Sparge ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Rakes/polyclar+isinglass/goobers/sulphites (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Middle ages water. (W. Mark Witherspoon)
  where to get cheap/good 5 gallon popkegs (William Perry)
  Red Beers - Rot (Gary McCarthy)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 09:40:43 EST
From: How come the future takes such a long time to come when you're waiting for a miracle 25-Jan-1995 0928 -0500 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: where to get CO2 tanks / cask conditioning

>Date: 23 Jan 95 15:27:00 -0600
>From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
>Subject: sparge water/lightstruck?/cardboard/low-cost kegging setup

[...]

>$120 for CO2 tank, gauge, connectors, hoses and faucet (What most people,
>incorrectly call a "tap" is actually a "faucet."  A "tap" is the connector
>that plugs into a Sankey, Golden Gate or Hoff-Stevens keg.) is probably a
>used CO2 tank already.  A new 5-pound CO2 tank will set you back at least
>$80-90.  Plastic connectors are usually $4-6 each, hose is about $1/foot,

you can do better than this.  i bought my _entire_ system from BCI in TN 
(800-284-9410) for $125 or so and that was with the more expensive 3 gal
keg.  they sell used c02 tanks, 10#, for $36, single-gauge reg. for $32 or
so, 2 plastics disconnects  at 3.20/ea, faucets (picnic-style) for about $4,
and hose is $0.35/ft. stainless disconnects are about 8.75/ea.  so, for
about $85 bucks or so, you can be pretty well set up.  i agree with Al,
blow off the 2-guage regulator.  in general, HB shops buy from places
like BCI. then, they have to mark-up.  you can too buy at "wholesale".
after 2 yrs, my setup is still working fine.

>Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:10:31 -0500 (EST)
>From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>Subject: RE:casks/priming
>
>Kirk asks:
>
><What is the distinction (for American amateurs) between
>cask conditioning and priming in the keg?  The terms seem
>to be synonymous as I've seen them used.

personally, i think they are one in the same.  cask-cond basically
means the beer goes thru a small fermentation/conditioning in the keg
vs. in some huge sendonrary fermentation tank.  the boys at budweiser
don't prime their kegs, they just load 'em up with CO2 from a tank vs.
allowing the yeast to chomp on some additional fermentables, such as
sugar.  cask-cond ale is "live" beer, vs. budwieser int he keg is pretty
much dead, filtered to no end, etc.  cask-ale _might_ be a bit cloudy,
however, this being undesirable, lots of english brewers producing cask
ales _do_ filter and/or use isinglass.

i think the biggest distinction between cask ales and keg beer is alive
vs. dead beer.  cask-ales still have _some_ yeast in suspension, where
as keg beer, it is usually completely filtered out.

jc

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 11:16:00 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Cheap Erlenmeyer flasks; Oatmeal Stout; Cat's Meow 3

     In the latest catalog from American Science & Surplus, they announced 
     they now have reasonably priced borosilicate glass (eg Pyrex(tm), 
     Kimax(tm)) labware.  The description says it is "student grade, which 
     is good enough for anything fut the most exotic applications".  The 
     500ml Erlenmeyer flasks are $3.50.  I will probably get a couple of 
     these for making starters.  I have heard that these should not be used 
     directly on an electric stove, so I will probably use the microwave to 
     boil, and let them cool naturally, etc..  If anyone is interested, 
     their number is (708) 982-0870.
     
     I was inspired by the discussion a few weeks ago about oatmeal stouts, 
     and had to drink a few Samuel Smiths to remind myself how much I love 
     it.  My next beer will probably be based on the Sand Pit Special Stout 
     recipe posted by Glen A. Wagnecz in HBD 1630.  There was a follow up 
     post about oatmeal causing stuck or difficult sparges.  Does anyone 
     have any words of wisdom on avoiding this, or just not worrying about 
     it?  I have heard of using rice hulls to avoid stuck sparges in wheat 
     beers, but have seen little regarding oatmeal.
     
     Someone asked about the Cat's Meow 3 the other day.  I have browsed it 
     online from Spencer's web page, but have not seen in text file format. 
     It clearly states that it is an electronic guide only.  I don't have a 
     web browser at home (yet), and I don't look for and plan recipes at 
     work, so I guess I'm out of luck.  Is there any plans to put this in 
     file format?
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 08:15:53 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: AFCHBC Contest Announcement

Here is the final and completely updated announcement of the America's
Finest City Homebrew Competition for 1995.  Requests for entry packets
should be sent with a US Mail address to the Email address listed
below.  The bottle forms can be obtained via Email in MSWord format
only.  No other forms are available via Email.  Standard AHA entry and
bottle forms are acceptable.  Entry packets will be distributed via US
Mail.

For those of you in or near San Diego, entries will be accepted in
person at most of the local homebrew supply shops.  Call before
bringing them in.  Also, entries will **NOT** be accepted in person at
the UPS shipping address, Alesmith Brewing Company.

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California



- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


Second Annual
America's Finest City
Homebrew Competition

Dear Brewer, Thank you for expressing an interest in AFCHC. Last year
the contest was a success due to those of you who submitted over 170
entries and an outstanding group of judges.  The second annual contest
promises to be even better than the first. This year, all entries will
be shipped and judged at the same site, therefore your beers will be
less likely to be agitated once received. Like last year, we will be
judging all AHA beverage styles including cider, mead, and sake. We
will also send each entrant the judges score sheets for his or her
entry, as we did in '94.

The one area that we had a problem last year was in packaging.  Many
of the entries came in bottles other than those outlined in the AHA
guidelines, and many of the beers had the bottle ID form taped to the
bottle, rather than rubber banded.  Please follow the AHA guidelines
for bottle size, bottle color, and attachment of bottle identification
forms.

Ship  beers  to:    AleSmith Brewing Company
                    9368 Cabot Drive
                    San  Diego,  CA  92126

Entries will only be accepted February 27  through  March  8, 1995.

For those of you in San Diego, entries are being accepted at most of
the homebrew supply stores.  Entries will NOT be accepted in person at
AleSmith Brewing Company, only via UPS.

Two bottles per entry will be required, as there will be a best of show.

The entry fee will be $6.00 for the first entry, and $4.00 each for each 
additional  entry.

Make check payable to QUAFF!!!

The judging of the beers will be held Saturday, March 11, 1995 at
AleSmith Brewing company.  Due to the size of the room, and the
concentration required by the judges, the judging will not be open to
spectators.

We are using the American Homebrewers Association rules, regulations,
style descriptions and categories, so please refer to the Winter 1994
issue of Zymurgy magazine or call with questions.  All AHA beverage
categories will be accepted and judged.

For  those  shipping  their beers,  please mark boxes with arrows  pointing 
up, so we can store your beer right side up.

Thanks again for your interest.

Cheers,
Skip  Virgilio            Ted  Newcomb              Paul Laskin
Contest   Organizer       Judge  Director           Competition Registrar
(619)  566-7061           (619)552-8293             (619)438-9332


Dion Hollenbeck (hollen at megatek.com) is your email contact

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Date:     25 Jan 95 10:14:50 EST
From: M.Marshburn/D202 at cgsmtp.comdt.uscg.mil
Subject: Stout Substitutions


Collective wisdom of the HBD

     I would like to brew the Barrel of Monkeys Wheat Oatmeal Stout in
Papazian's HBC. However, I don't have the wheat malt, roasted and roasted
black barley. I do have D-C pale ale malt and specialty malts like biscuit,
aromatic, special b, etc... Can I make the roast and black malts from the
pale ale by baking it in the oven??? Temp, length of time??? I have whole
wheat flour bought at a power show. Its whole wheat threshed and ground by
turn of the century power (horse etc.) equipment, could I use 1/2lb or so in
the mash as replacement for the wheat malt???  Post or private will be fine.
TIA
Mike Marshburn
m.marshburn/d202 at cgsmtp.comdt.uscg.mil


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Date:          Wed, 25 Jan 1995 08:23:35 PST8PDT
From: "Peter Gothro" <PGOTHRO at marvin.ag.uidaho.edu>
Subject:       Philly area HB shops

Hello All!
    Rick Gontarek was asking about Philly area HB shops, so here's my 
$.02 worth:  When I was living in Newark, DE, I used to go to Wine 
Hobby U.S.A. in Stanton, DE (between Wilmington and Newark), and I 
also heard of a fireplace shop/nome brew store in Ambler, PA (west of 
Philly I think).  Hope this helps.      Pete

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 09:35:14 -0800
From: rfugitt at ix.netcom.com (ray fugitt)
Subject: all grain-taking the plunge

I am ready to take the plunge, I'm looking for suggestions on a all 
grain system. I am looking to buy one, not make it. The biggest 
limitation is I live in an apartment, not alot of room. I am interested 
in a system that has it's own heating source if possible, my stove does 
not heat up well. Dealers replies welcome. 


Thanks in advance.

Ray Fugitt

rfugitt at ix.netcom.com


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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 13:04:49 -0500 (EST)
From: david lawrence shea <dshea at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Bleeding excess pressure from 5l mini kegs

After my recent posts about never having any problems with excess 
pressure in my mini-kegs, guess what?  I returned home last night to find 
that my keg of Hefeweizen had begun doing a number on my keg.  I found 
away to rid it of the excess pressure however.  I got an ordinary knife 
(silverware) and got under the lip of the bung and pressed hard into the 
center of the bung.  If you do it hard enough, a small opening will let 
the excess CO2 escape.  When you remove the knife, the bung seals back 
up.  

David L. Shea
Indiana University
dshea at ucs.indiana.edu


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Date:        Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:22:16 CST
From: "Davis G. Hunt" <BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU>
Subject: 

 I would like to request service to this list serv.
I am a home brewer, and would like to swap tall tales and recipies.

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 10:30:49 PST
From: kotwica at ATS.ORST.EDU (Kyle Kotwica)
Subject: kegging problems

This kegging stuff seemed so fool proof; I guess I'm no ordinary fool.
I recently got a cornelius keg system, and have been trying to force
carbonate my beer. Its been a couple of weeks and I've drunk at least 
a gallon of flat beer. Several times a day I shake the keg for a minute
or so. Its been charged at 30 lbs the whole time, and still every time I 
take a glass of foam ( and let it turn into beer) its flat. To make matters
worse now after all my messing around every time I shake it some beer starts 
working its way back up the line towards the CO2 canister. After I set it 
down the incoming CO2 pushes the beer back into the keg but still....

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Date: 25 Jan 95 11:03:08 PST
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: tampa bp/miss outlaw/kegging


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  tampa bp/miss outlaw/kegging
Date: 1995-01-25 12:47
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. will be visiting tampa soon - would appreciate brewpub recommendations
 -----
2. seems that steve in al has outlaw neighbors, including me, in ms. there
is a bill in committee in the house to correct this abomination. for those
brewing rebs out there - calls can be made to chairman of the rules
committee, bill endris, at 601-359-3355 and your state representative
regarding house bill 398, and to your state senator regarding senate bill
2097.
 -----
3. and finally my disertation on first-time kegging - WARNING LONG POST:

Here's the procedure I followed during my first kegging experience. I did
not find a detailed procedure in the array of books that I read on the
subject, and thought that this might be of interest to other 'beginners'. I
also look forward to improvements I could make from the 'pros'. My system
consists of a 20-pound CO2 bottle, a two-gage regulator, and 5-gallon
Cornelius kegs with pin lock attachments, a pressure line to run from the
regulator to the inlet (2-pin) side of the keg, and a tapper line to run
from the outlet (3-pin) side of the keg to the tap.

Process 1: Pressure Test the Keg

 1. attach the regulator to the bottle and tighten the fitting
 2. attach the pressure line to the regulator and tighten the fitting
 3. attach the pressure line to the keg (press down and turn to lock on the
pins)
 4. ensure that the set screw on the regulator is screwed out to avoid over
pressuring the keg
 5. slowly crack open the CO2 bottle valve and watch the low pressure gage
     if the pressure exceeds 20 psi:
     a. close the valve
     b. reset the regulator pressure by screwing out the set screw
     c. repeat at the beginning of step 5
 6. once you have ensured that the pressure is below 20 psi, open the valve
about one full turn
 7. screw in the regulator set screw until the keg pressure is 20 psi
 8. close the valve
 9. slowly crack the regulator fitting that is attached to the bottle to
bleed the high pressure side
10. then quickly retighten the fitting to avoid depressuring the keg
     if you lose pressure repeat from step 6

[Question - is there usually a check valve on the high pressure side of the
regulator?!

11. leave the pressure on the keg overnight to ensure that there are no
leaks
12. if the keg doesn't hold pressure then it may require reconditioning

[Observation - I lost 4 psi overnight, due in part to a cool temperatures,
which I judged to be OK!

13. disconnect the pressure line at the keg
14. depressure the keg by depressing the inlet fitting with a screwdriver
     do not stand directly over the fitting while depressuring

[Question - do some folks simply do a soap test to check for leaks and be
done with it?!

Process 2: Sanitize the Keg

 1. make sure the keg is depressured and open the keg
 2. fill the keg 1/2 way with hot tap water, add 1 ounce of bleach, and fill
to the top with hot tap water
 5. close the keg and shake the contents
 6. attach the pressure line to the keg
 7. attach the tapper line to the outlet fitting on the keg
 8. open the CO2 bottle valve to pressure up the keg
 9. once pressured up, open the tap until you smell bleach at the tap
10. close the valve and disconnect the pressure line from the keg
11. let the keg stand for 30 minutes
     don't let it stand longer - chlorine can attack the stainless steel

[Question - any interest in a thread on the pros and cons of other
sanitizing agents for kegs?!

12. depressure the keg through the tap
13. open the keg and pour out the contents - the tapper can be left attached
to the keg
14. rinse the keg with hot tap water and drain the contents - repeat this
twice more
15. refill with enough hot tap water to cover an inch of the outlet line at
the bottom of the keg
16. reconnect the pressure line to the keg
17. open the bottle valve long enough to lightly pressure the keg, then
close the valve
18. disconnect the pressure line from the keg
19. depressure the keg through the tap to rinse the tapper line and tap
20. disconnect the tapper line from the keg
21. open the keg and pour out the contents

Process 3: Filling

 1. rack the beer into the freshly-sanitized keg
 2. close the keg
 3. attach the pressure line to the keg
 4. open the CO2 bottle valve to fully pressure the keg
 5. disconnect the pressure line at the keg

[Observation - I did not have to close the valve when disconnecting the
pressure line!

 6. depressure the keg by depressing the inlet fitting with a screwdriver
     do not use the outlet fitting since you would get a faceful of beer
 7. repeat steps 3 through 6 twice more to purge oxygen from the keg
 8. repressure and let stand as required to achieve the desired carbonation
level

[Observation - I was unfortunate enough not to have room left over in my
spare refrigerator for the keg. Well, the water in my pool is 56 degF, so I
put the keg on the ledge in the deep end of the pool with the CO2 bottle on
the side of the pool. In addition to being the most stable heat sink around
my house, the top of the keg is just below the surface of the water, so I
re-verified that I had no leaks. In addition, the keg is in a mild-chlorine
'bath' to ensure external sanitation - and no one swims this time of year so
there's no p in ool either.!

WAWAs world and the land of beth's finger beer   &:-[o


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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 14:05:00 EST
From: "Houseman, David L [TR]" <DLH1 at trpo3.Tredydev.Unisys.com>
Subject: Misc Topics


Patrick asks why his all grain beer came out so bitter.....
   There's a good chance that this is not bitterness, but tannin
    astringency from too high pH and/or temperature of the
    sparge water.  This topic has been covered in detail so I
    won't try to cover here; just recognize that as the problem
    rather than excess bitteress from hops.

Jim comments on the high cost of Irish Moss....
    Two factors here, how much it costs, per once for example,
    and how much you use.  The cost per once isn't high, in fact
    one ad in Zymurgy has this at $5/lb!  But remember that you
    only use from 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon (more recent wisdom
    based on George Fix's testing) per 5 gallon batch.  One tablespoon
    of irish moss can't be but a few grams so the cost to use this,
    especially given the return, is miniscule.

Dave Houseman
Groundhog Brewery
   

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 11:09:42 -800 (PST)
From: Steven M Verdekel <steven at cyber.cyber.net>
Subject: Chile Beer recipe wanted...

Bill Vaughn: If you have that recipe for chile beer laying around, I 
would sure be interested in looking at it, as I am sure many people on 
here would.

It seems most of my recent batches have been of the specialty variety, 
ie..coffee, and chocolate beer but I have yet to brew a chile beer. This 
sounds good.

(I bet some of the beer purists out there CRINGE at the mention of 'chile 
beer'...but then again they aren't homebrewers!)

Steven at cyber.net


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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 13:24:54 EST
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: Brewing a PU clone

Guide lines for makinng a PU clone:
When trying to clone any world class beer one must pay attention to the 
water, hops, grain and yeast.  Brewing a quality PU clone is a long brew 
day , fermentation and lager .  You can cut corners but you compromise the 
product

The water in Pilsen is very soft, it is low in sulphur and calcium.  Use 
the softest water you can and don't add gypsum.  You may need to buy water 
for this type of beer if your tap water is very hard.   You may want to add 
some calcium chloride to help lower mash ph with a very soft water.  When 
in dought add nothing.  

Hops, one word, Saaz, whole or pellet your choice, it may take as much as 
1/4 lb with some of the low %aa stuff that has been around.  The hopping 
level in part is related to water hardness the harder the water the lower 
the hopping since you don't want to produce harsh bitterness,.
Low to high 30s IBU depending on water, PU is in the low 40s .  When I used 
3.1%aa Saaz I added 2 oz for  60minutes 3/4oz for 30 minutes and 1 oz at 
the for 2 minutes.  You  have to be careful with the last two additions or 
you get too much flavor and overpower the malt.     

Grain:  use a quality Pilsner malt like Ireks or Durst.  You may want to 
add no more than 10%
Ireks or Durst Munich and a couple percent of DC Caramel Pils.  If you use 
the Cpils steep it in 160F water and add at mashout.  Based on previosly 
published information I don't use DC Belgian Pils , it is too modified and 
produces less malty chracter than the German malts mentioned.

Yeast:  Try the Wyeast Chech Pils or 2206, 2124 produces an adeqauate 
product in a shorter amount of time but IMHO it lacks in malty character. 

Mashing:  Do a double decotion, Hit 100F for your first rest.  After 10 
minutes, pull a thick decotion of about 40% of your grain.  Heat the 
decotion to 152 hold for 20 minutes and heat to boil.  Boil for 10 minutes. 
  Add to main mash until you hit 120-122 infuse with hot or cold water as 
needed.  Let sit for 5 minutes and pull another 40% decotion and heat to 
152.  While the decotion is mashing in the 150s heat the main mash to 140, 
you don't want to do a protein rest much  longer than 15 minutes or you get 
to much protein degradation and a thin beer with poor head retention.  Let 
the decoction sit at 152 for 20 minutes and boil 10.  Add this to the main 
mash and hit 156-158.  Mash until converted.  Heat main mash to 170 for 
mashout, hold 10 minutes.  

Becareful of hotside airation.  This beer should be fermented in the mid 
40sF, after the krausen has fallen, 2 weeks or so,  you  want to raise the 
temp 5 degrees for a couple days to do a diacetyl rest .  Then lower the 
temp 5 degrees every 12 hours until you hit your lagering temp.
40F works but  33 is better.  Let sit another day to let yeast settle out 
and rack to secondary .
Let lager for at least  6 weeks.  Its now ready to keg or bottle.

This is a lot of work, I brew it once a year.
Lee  

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Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:19:33 -0800
From: bill at oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Re: Sourdough beer

I have been making sour mash stout for some years.  I've tried "wild"
(grain husks/atmosphere) lactobacillus and yogurt culture to sour the mash,
but about 3 years ago I settled on sourdough culture.  It has a very clean
lactic flavor, is entirely predictable, and its fermentation rate is much
slower than yogurt culture or wild lacto, probably because it seems to want
a higher fermentation temp than the others.
   A slow fermentation rate is important for my recipe because I stop the
lactic fermentation when it reaches a pH of 3.9 in order to get the sweet
wort (a misnomer in this case) to the degree of tartness I like.  (The
recipe is partial mash -- I use about a 14# mash for a 10-gallon batch and
bring it up to strength with 12# of extract.)
   The flavor is quite neutral.  I don't get any hint of "sourdough bread"
in the beer, whereas with yogurt culture I did get a slight hint of yogurt
flavor.  (My friends swore they couldn't taste it, but I could.)  As for
wild sourmash, it might be traditional, but I will pass.  There is too much
chance of spoiling the batch.  It is entirely unpredictable, sometimes
never seems to get sour enough, sometimes too sour, sometimes develops off
flavors.
   So it's sourdough stout for me.



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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:55:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: D-C Belgian Pale/Munich Malt/Lager Starters

Hey HBDers,

I have finally found a place to buy DeWolf-Cosyns Belgian malts.  My 
question:  is the D-C Belgian Pale Ale malt a suitable well-modified malt for 
most pale ales?  I'm thinking ahead toward spring and would like to refine my 
all-grain technique by tweeking various parameters in a series of pale ales.  
A 50-lb. bag is the economical way to go, but I wanted to get some ops on the 
D-C pale ale before sinking a load into it.

Now, back to the present.  I'm planning to do two Munich Dunkels, one of 
which will be a standard step infusion mash and the other of which will be a 
simple single decoction step mash.  I want to see if I can detect a 
noticeable difference between the two with respect to maltiness in the flavor 
profile.  The recipe is based on that given by Noonan:

     5.00 lbs German Durst Pilsner malt
     3.50 lbs German Durst Munich malt
     1.00 lbs German Durst 50L Crystal
     0.50 lbs American Cara-pils malt
     7.0 AAU Saaz pellets (boil)
     0.25 oz. Saaz finishing hops

At 80% efficiency (homebrewer's) according to SUDS, I get an OG of 
1.055---should end up a little higher based on my previous experience with my 
setup.  The questions:  What degree of modification can I typically expect 
from a German malt?  I am specifically concerned whether a protein rest is 
necessary/detrimental for this beer.  I had intended to use a 40/60/70 mash 
for well-modified malts when it occurred to me that these may not be 
fully-modified.  Will the Saaz hops carry this beer out of standard 
style?---Noonan recommends Hallertau.  Lastly, the only yeast I have on hand 
is Wyeast Bohemian Lager, which isn't traditionally recommended for this 
style.  Will it still perform satisfactorily for a Munich? Its profile 
description is for big residual maltiness, which is what I'm after.  On a 
side-note, what is the maximum percentage of the grain bill that can be 
Munich?  I've read %100, but what kind of effects does an all-munich grain 
bill have on flavor?

Last and certainly not least.....Can someone please summarize the appropriate 
steps for starter-culturing a lager yeast?  I've seen an infinite number of 
variations, to the point of getting me completely confused.  I plan to let 
the Wyeast pack swell at the upper end of the lager temperature range (about 
54 F), pitch to about a 0.5 qt starter at the same temp, and then step to a 
0.5 gallon starter at the same temp.  I have heard some people suggest 
starting lager yeasts a little warmer to build up cell counts and for a quick 
start in the wort, then cooling slowly to actual fermentation temp.  What 
works best and why?

Wow, what a barrage of questions this post turned out to be!  I apologize and 
wish to thank the collective wisdom for the recent thought-provoking 
discussions on the digest.  As always, email is fine, but perhaps some of 
these issues are of general interest, especially a definitive lager culturing 
routine and the notorious protein rest.  BREW ON!

Bones

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	Timothy P. Laatsch               
	Graduate Student in Microbial Ecology/Bioremediation		    
	Michigan State University			    
	Kellogg Biological Station
	Kalamazoo, MI	
	laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

	Brew Free or DIE!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date:          Wed, 25 Jan 1995 14:25:07 MST-0700
From: "Dave Ebert" <DNE at Data.HSC.Colorado.edu>
Subject:       Fermentap vs Brewcap & a question

You may recall that a few weeks back I asked if anyone had heard much 
about the Fermentap.  I received very few responses about the 
fermentap and some people wrote me about the Brewcap.  To learn for 
myself I asked Santa for a Fermentap for Xmas (got it!) and I bought 
a brewcap from my local brew shop this past weekend.  I've brewed one 
batch with the fermentap and I'll be doing a batch with the brewcap 
in the near future.  Once the fermentation is complete I'll publish 
my opinions on the two devices.

On another note.  Ever since I began brewing I noticed that even 
though I strained the wort through two screens when pouring it into 
the primary fermenter (glass carboy) I had a good couple of inches of 
sediment even before the yeast began working.  This past weekend I 
started a wheat beer and put some irish moss in to help clarify as 
usual.  But this time I decided to settle the wort for 24 hours, rack 
off the top of the sediment and then pitch the yeast.

Other than the fact that I run an additional slight risk of 
contamination are there any reasons why this technique wont help me 
in having cleaner brews?  The fermenting wort is clear and you only 
see the sediment of the yeasties not the normal junk.

Experts....your comments please?

Dave Ebert
dne at data.hsc.colorado.edu
  

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Date: 25 Jan 95 16:42:35 EST
From: Don Rudolph <76076.612 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Ultimate Czech Pilsner


In HBD #1640, Darryl asks via Matt about cloning an authentic Czech
Pilsner.  Since I started brewing six years ago, my purpose in life has
been to create a perfect Pilsner Urquell clone.  I haven't succeeded. I
still have a purpose.  I've been to the brewery and saw how they do it,
I've tasted the bitter/sweet nectar fresh from the lager tanks, and I still
fall short of the mark.  For those interested, here are some considerations
for creating the ultimate Pilsner:

Malt -  Czech malt is undermodified compared to the malts we buy here.  The
best results I have obtained have been with European malts, specifically
the Belgian Pilsner malt.   I haven't used Ireks (German) malt, would any-
one like to comment on this malt?  How does it compare to Belgian?  The 
worst attempts have been with domestic malts and malt extracts.  The rich,
malty character of PU cannot be duplicated with these ingredients, IMO.

Mashing - Triple, Double, Single decoctions, infusion mashing.  I've done
'em all.  In Pilsen, they use a triple decoction mash and rests for
acidification, protein degradation, and saccarification.  This intense 
mash regimen is dictacted by 1) Soft water, and 2) Undermodified malt.
The fully modifed malts we use here don't seem to benefit much from a
decoction when brewing pale beers, so I haven't had any better results 
with decoction over infusion mashing.  What's missing from my infusion brews
is that malty, carmelly aroma and flavor that is likely the result of
melanoidins produced during decoction.  To get this character in my brews,
I use a light crystal (20-40L) in small amounts (.25 - .5 lb/5 gal).  It's
not quite the same, but it's close. 

Water - Seattle is blessed with soft water.  This is good.  If you have
high carbonate or sulfate water, its very hard to get the hop character
just right.  If you don't have soft water, you may to start with distilled
water and add minerals matching Pilsen's water.  Or, use less hops.

Hops - As I stated above, getting the hop character just right is a real 
challenge with a PU clone.  PU is a bitter beer (isn't it about 40 IBUs ?)
but the bitterness is very smooth, and without any harshness.  In Pilsen,
they add hops in three lots, which gives the beer a complex hoppy character.
To duplicate this, use soft water, Saaz hops added to the kettle at 60,30,
and 5 minutes before the boil.  Be generous, and aim for at least 35 IBU.
To get that wonderful, big hop nose, late hop with at least 1 ounce of Saaz.
I have used up to 2 oz.  Try and get Saaz plugs (not pellets), they seem
to endure the travel and abuse better than pellets or whole hops.  Don't
dry hop, the character imparted by dry hops just isn't the same as PU.

Yeast/Fermentation - A good lager yeast is essential.  I've used Wyeast
Bohemian and Czech with excellent results.  Both are sulfur producers and
need time to condition out.  Chill quickly, rack off cold trub, aerate very
thoroughly.  Then, pitch a large, clean, healthy starter, and ferment at 
lager temps (45-55F).  When I tasted PU at the brewery, the yeast character
was very evident, and expressed itself as a sulfury note just at the 
threshold of perception.  Also, lager in a cornelius keg as long as you can
stand it, for up to 5 months.

Further Reading - Some good books are out there that address some of the 
technical and esoteric issues of brewing pilsner beer.  For starters, try
Miller's "Continental Pilsner".  I also learned alot from Noonan's "Brewing
Lager Beer", a treatise on decoction mashing.  Richman's "Bock" is also
enlightening on malts, decoction mashing, and melanoidin production.

Recipe - My closest yet is:

9  lb	Belgian Pilsner Malt
8  oz	CaraPils Malt
6  oz  	20L Crystal Malt

7 AAU	Saaz	60 minutes
3 AAU	Saaz	30 minutes
1.5 oz  Saaz	 5 minutes

Wyeat Czech or Bohemian	 yeast, slurry from 1/2 gal starter.

OG 1048-1053, TG 1010-1016

Mash-in at 145F for 20 minutes, raise to 155-158 until conversion.
Sparge, boil at least 90 minutes, force cool to 45F, rack off trub, aerate,
and pitch.  Primary ferment 10 days at 48F, slowly cool to 40F, rack 
to secondary (keg).  After 30 days, lower temp slowly (2 deg per day) to 
32F and lager at 5-10 psi for up to 5 months.  Fine with gelatin if 
necessary.

This is a very difficult beer to brew well.  Every mistake and flaw is 
easy to see or taste.  The pale color, delicate palate, and impeccable
balance are hard to get just right and easy to screw up.  PU's been brewed
for 100 years, maybe in 100 years I'll get it right!

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
76076.612 at CompuServe.COM




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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 15:00:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Decoction/Grain Bed Depth/Mash-out and Sparge


>From HBD #1640:

>Matt K asks:  I'm looking for details on decoction mashing, which malts
require it...

My understanding was that decoction referred ONLY to the means by which
temperature was controlled in a mash, and had nothing to do with any 
particular
mash schedule.  Specifically, according to my source(s), decoction means
nothing more than using hot make-up water to heat the mash, or using some
mash liquor removed from the tun and heated, to do the same.  I'm getting 
the
idea there is much more to it than this...someone please illuminate!  And

>J Busch responds to Zeek's re: grain bed depth question...

What does Zeek mean when he suggests his recirc "is not effective", and what
are the implications of various grain bed depths?

Our grain bed, for a typical 12 gal brew, is about 8-10 inches, and I was 
actually
concerned about it being too deep (for some reason).  What I DO notice about
the grain bed is that it doesn't seem to have the gradient of particle size 
often
described: to wit, there isn't any detectable layer of fine dough on the 
bottom,
followed by successively coarser stuff on top.

Finally, we've seen many references to stuck mashes and long sparge times.
Our sparges go about 15-20 min for a 10-12 gal batch.  We pump from the
mash tun into the kettle about as slowly as we can, and at the same time 
pump
from the sparge tank into the mash tub at the same rate, trying to keep a 
layer
of water over the grains.  We're concerned that a "good sparge" should 
ideally
take much longer, possibly to afford the entrapped goodness enough time to
get dissolved by the sparge water and carried off.  On our last batch, the 
last
runnings from the mash tub had a gravity of 10 (corrected), which I know is 
a
little higher than 2 Plato (a recommended stopping point).

Our filter trays have 3/32" holes spaced evenly about 7/16" apart, and there
are about 900 of them--this is for a mash tun built from a Sankey keg. 
 We've
let our mash level go well below the surface of the bed, and had no trouble
recovering flow, and this even with 1/2 lb of wheat malt.  Should we be 
striving
for a slower-flow sparge for any reason?

Kirk R Fleming
The TurboSparge Corporation
 - flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 - BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

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Date: 25 Jan 95 15:53:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Rakes/polyclar+isinglass/goobers/sulphites

Jim writes:
>Rake'ing (or knifing) the lauter is merely using a long thin
>device to cut verticle channels through the grain bed in the 
>lauter tun.  I use the handle end of a long SS spoon.  I like
>to cut in a pie shape pattern, be sure not to cut deep to the
>filter bed, stay a few inches above this.  Lauter tuns have
>rakes installed in the better breweries to do this, it helps
                        ^^^^^^
>to remove the spent grains, lift overly compacted grain beds,
>and keep hard to lauter beds from becoming stuck.

Actually, it has nothing to do with the quality of the brewery.
In Britain, I asked every brewmaster if they ran the rakes
during the lauter and every one of them (eight or ten) said
"No!  They only use the rakes to remove spent grain."  The
answer to why infusion mashing breweries do not use rakes during
the lauter can be found in Hough's Biotechnology of Malting and
Brewing (sorry, don't have the page handy) or, I'm sure, in
Malting and Brewing Science by Hough, et. al.  The reason that
decoction breweries *must* use rakes is because boiling the
decoctions removes the entrapped air from the mash.  In infusion
mashes, this entrapped air makes the grain bouyant and thus
the grain bed "floats" slightly.  This keeps the bed from
compacting.  I've also spoken to Greg Moehn, the brewmaster
at Chicago Brewing Company about this and they run the rakes
on and off for their Red Ale, Porter and Lager, but run them
continuously for their Wheat.  Once they did stop the rakes
on the wheat and had to climb in there with shovels.  So, this
implies that even with an infusion mash, when using sticky
ingredients like wheat, the rakes are required in some systems.

Furthermore, Jim writes:
>A rest at 128F using pale ale malt will certainly make a clearer beer,
>one that will not taste too good, either.  Finings like Isinglass, are
>actually *foam positive*, ie, they increase the foam stand on a beer, 
>really!  Polyclar will latch on to large proteins and settle them out,
>if your beer has enough medium proteins, your foam will still be OK.
>Have you tried real cold conditioning, for 2 weeks at 31F?  THis will
>drop many beers clear.  BTW, isinglass drops yeast by a electrostatic
>charge effect, followed by mass accretion, which causes sedimentation.
>Polyclar drops proteins.  If you have a real vigorous boil and are 
>careful in leaving the hot trub in the kettle, then protein haze using
>pale ale malts is not a normal problem.

Careful, careful, Jim... Polyclar (PVPP) attracts tannins, not proteins.
I still contend (and this is based solely on my own preliminary tests)
that a short protein rest of about 15 min at 135F will decrease break
formation without affecting head retention and body significantly, even
with a fully modified malt such as British Pale Ale malt.  You have to
consider the affects of peptidase and protease separately!  Actually,
I believe that all finings work electrostatically except one who's
name escapes me and possibly bentonite.

*********
Kirk writes:
>After witnessing the incredible spectacle of huge flocs precipitating out to
>form a 2" thick layer of sponge on the bottom, the beer appeared to be
>quite free of suspended material.
> 
>Today, my associate called to report the beer is now a suspension of
>"millions" of little stringy, gooey looking snow-white particles (we have
>labeled them "goobers", for now), in a highly turgid state.

You've described cold break.  The beer should turn out fine.  Yes, it
was probably the wheat malt that made for all this cold break... wheat
contains significantly more protein than barley.

*******
Richard writes:
>I've always used sulphites of sodium for sanitizing
>everything (because the person that I brewed with
>used it). It smells really toxic, but rinses right away.
>Lots of books/posts/... say bleach is
>a popular choice. However, I find that the bleach smell
>is really hard to get rid of, and I don't want my beer 
>smelling or tasting like the neighborhood swimming
>pool.

Sulphites don't actually sanitize anything.  In an acid environment
they produce a sulphur gas which inhibits the growth of yeasts and
some bacteria.  Bleach is an alternative, but, as you suggest, is
not easy to rinse off of some surfaces and is not very environmentally
friendly.  I prefer to use Sodium Percarbonate, which is available
commercially as One-Step Sanitizer and B-Brite.  I do use bleach for
some things (Smartcap sanitation) and Iodophor for others (kegs,
stainless, etc.), but prefer to use One-Step wherever I can.  It is
the most environmentatlly friendly sanitizer and can be used without
rinsing (well, if you don't count boiling water!).

Al.

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 18:38:34 -0500
From: mwithers at hannibal.atl.ge.com (W. Mark Witherspoon)
Subject: Middle ages water.

The reason bear and wine were the things to drink then and now
was the pollution of the local water supply.  The water over
there then was full of bacteria (typhus, ameboa, step,staff,
etc..).  The boiling of the wort and the fermenting (alchol
creation) would destroy all or most of the bacteria content.
Now days the local water is so full of heavy metals that
boiling will cause most of them to drop out or be absorbed by
the grain, protein, and yeast.

Fresh grape is relitivly bacteria free, so fermentation would
keep the bacteria count down or out.


Mark Witherspoon

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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 20:21:45 EST
From: William Perry <William.L.Perry.13 at nd.edu>
Subject: where to get cheap/good 5 gallon popkegs

Hi,
Sorry to post here and not on the news group, but our news server is having
its midlife crisis right now and has decided not to accept postings for some
odd reason.  Anyway, I am interested in purchasing or finding 5 gallon pop
kegs.  I have tried all of the bottlers in south Bend, Indiana (no laughing
please) and they were not helpful at all.  If anyone has suggestions on
where I might get them relatively cheap I would appreciate it.  The cheaper
the better according to my wife.  I would be interested in buying 4 or so
for all of the different brews.  Thank you very much, Bill Perry

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Date: 25 Jan 1995 16:49:34 GMT
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Red Beers - Rot

There has been some bandwidth recently about the Red Beers in the marketplace
nowadays.  Before I brewed, I like Killians Red, when I could find it on-tap.

  But todays Salt Lake Tribune, in an article titled Red Beer: Is it Real?,
mentions Rot.  "There is something called Rot, which is a rare, aged red
German beer, but nothing about its making or style comes near the red beers
sold now".  This a Knight-Ridder News Service article, so it may be in your
local paper also.

Does anyone know anything about Rot, and does anyone have a recipe(perf
all-grain)?

Gary_Mccarthy at dayna.com

When the going gets tough, the tough get ice cream.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1642, 01/27/95