FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Misconceptions: cask ales. (Jim Cave)
  Stuck lautering with oatmeal (Dr. David C. Harsh)
  Re:  New revision of Suds (PatrickM50)
  Philly HB supply stores (M_MACADAMS)
  Grant's spiced ale (Marla Korchmar)
  Problem with second brew. ("Andy....pbx 5152")
  south FL watering holes (Alvin Little)
  Ascorbic Acid (Ifor Williams)
  Re: Middle Ages Water ("nancy e. renner")
  Philly homebrew shop (Mark Kempisty - 957-8365)
  RE:Stout Subs, Cornies, et al (PGBABCOCK)
  Scaling Bitterness Efficiency (kr_roberson)
  Homebrew books (Gordon Dutrisac)
  GABF/Denver Tour (Terry Terfinko)
  DC Pilsner malt in PU clones ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Yeast Culturing/Redox Stain/Diacetyl Measurement ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  More on pH Meters (A.J. deLange)
  Re: all grain-taking the plunge (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: where to get cheap/good 5 gallon popkegs (Dion Hollenbeck)
  stout substitutes ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  Huntsville Area Brew Clubs (David Campbell)
  beer (Isabel Kazimierczuk)
  Cheers & Salutes ("MATTHEW F. BAYLEY")
  PU Clone yeast (Martin Wilde)
  Kraustening (Chris Strickland)
  High gravity brewing? (KBONNEMA)
  Source for CAMRA Book (mpeacock)
  Roller mill speed (Jack Schmidling)



******************************************************************
* NEW POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 5:59:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Misconceptions: cask ales.

	There are a few misconceptions mentioned in the net about cask
ale.  The first is that it is filtered. To my knowledge, this is not
done in the UK. However, they do centrifuge to remove most of the 
yeast prior to casking. The second is that it is acceptable to have
slightly cloudy cask ale.  This is unacceptable in England.  I have 
had somewhat variable pints of cask ale, but _none_ were cloudy.
All were brilliantly clear. I think this is largely due to the quality
of the finings available there, i.e. quality Issinglass, which, when
properly used, will clear a cask in only a day or so. While fiddling
around with cask ales at home, I am amazed at how the flavour changes
from slightly cloudy (rough, green taste) to brilliant (balance, fine
taste). If the cask is disturbed, the rough taste returns.  I have 
been very unhappy with the North American cask ales that I have had
as none (that I had) were brilliant and most were too cold.  Finally,
there is a misconception that cask ales need to be dispensed with a 
hand pump.  This is unnecessary, and the more traditional means of
dispense is by gravity and is still practiced in a few English pubs.
The cask is simply put on the stillage and dispensed through a tab
that resembles nothing more than a water faucet.  This can be 
emulated very nicely with a cobra head, 6-12 inch line and a 
horizontal soda keg.  A gently blanket dispense is all that is required
for CO2 (not as traditional as some may like, but it keeps the beer
in better shape for longer).

	Jim (enjoying 4 cask ales very much thank you) Cave

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:15:24 -0500
From: dharsh at alpha.che.uc.edu (Dr. David C. Harsh)
Subject: Stuck lautering with oatmeal

Kirk Harralson wrote in #1642:
>     blah blah blah...There was a follow up
>     post about oatmeal causing stuck or difficult sparges.  Does anyone
>     have any words of wisdom on avoiding this, or just not worrying about
>     it?  I have heard of using rice hulls to avoid stuck sparges in wheat
>     beers, but have seen little regarding oatmeal.

This has happened to me, but not in the classic description of a "stuck"
lautering process.  I made an oatmeal stout using Steel Cut Oats.  These
are readily available in health food stores and are pieces approximately
the size of the opening in the Listermann Lauter-tun.  You guessed it, the
oats stuck very nicely in every opening and I spent hours trying to get any
runoff and ended up dumping the batch because it wouldn't lauter, even with
threats and the occasional profanity.  (Later I figured out that I had
screwed up the mash temperature and pH too, but that's another story.)

How to avoid it?  Well, I made the same recipe last fall and got a couple
of small grain bags and put the oats in the bags for the mash and
lautering.  The recipe was the Oatmeal Cream Stout from Cat's Meow II and
I've been quite pleased with the result.  No problems whatsoever with the
entire process.

My opinion is worth what you are paying for it.

Dave

*****************************************************************
*    Dr. David C. Harsh                                         *
*    Laboratory Manager/Instructional Specialist                *
*    Department of Chemical Engineering                         *
*    University of Cincinnati                                   *
*    Cincinnati, OH  45221-0171                                 *
*                                                               *
* "I'm sick and tired of people who want something for nothing. *
*           But enough about undergraduates...                  *
*****************************************************************



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:38:49 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re:  New revision of Suds

In HBD #1641 Chuck E. Mryglot writes:
<<<<<
"I suspect that the (SUDS)3.1 IBU calculation is
based on the much debated formula recently published in Mark Garetz's book.
eg.   At rev 3.0c, a recipe has a calculated IBU of 28. the same recipe 
in 3.1 will show an IBU of 18..... quite a difference. "  . . .
"I checked out BRF and it tends to agree with the 3.0c formula.  Anyone
know what the new and old formulas for IBU calculations are?" 
>>>>>
When I questioned SUDS author Michael Taylor re: the new low hop calc
algorithm, he said it did indeed come from Mark Garetz's research.  But I
also believe it doesn't agree with anything I have made before nor read about
elsewhere.  I have not read Mark's book so I *may* be way out of line here,
but the SUDS 3.0 results are much closer to BRF software, Byron Burch's book
(Brewing Quality Beers), Brewing Techniques Magazine articles, award winning
AHA recipes published in Zymurgy and the Brewer's Calculator software.  Maybe
if enough of us emailed Michael at 76625.2552 at compuserve.com and asked him
ever so politely to give us the choice of two different hop calcs in his next
rev of the program he might be inclined to do so?  Just a thought . . . 


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:27:30 -0500
From: M_MACADAMS at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US
Subject:  Philly HB supply stores

Rick,  

There are quite a few HB supply stores in the Philly area.  In
center city I believe there is an "American U-Brew" place (I've
been hearing radio commercials for it lately), there is also a
shop in Montgomeryville.  In addition, look for a new shop to
open soon in the Newtown area.

If you need further details, drop me a line.

        	
   ?	 ?	??   Mike
  ?	?	?	?		
 ?	?	??????   If beer ferments in the woods, and nobody 
  ?		?? ? ??     is there to drink it.....
  ? 	?? ? ??
   	??    ??
     ?????


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:00:55 -0500
From: Marla Korchmar <marlak at pipeline.com>
Subject: Grant's spiced ale

 
 
Does anyone have a recipe approximating Grant's Spiced Ale? 

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:55:11 EST
From: "Andy....pbx 5152" <copea at kenyon.edu>
Subject: Problem with second brew.

Hello everybody,

I'm a very new homebrewer.  I'm currently working on my second batch
and have run into a problem that maybe somebody can help me with.
My first batch of amber ale turned out very well and I decided to try
a pale ale recipe suggested by a brew store I visited.  Here's what I
did.

(steralized everything with extreme care, using Super-Clor, a chlorine
 based cleaner.  Soaked all things for half-hour and then rinsed 
 thoroughly twice.)

Boiled two gallons of bottled water.
Added two cans of Munton Light Malt extract.
Added 1 and 1/2 oz. of Northern Brewer flower hops
 -Boiled for one hour
 -Removed from heat
Added 1/2 pound of crystal malt
Added 1 and 1/3 oz Tettenang (sp?) hops
 -I allowed this mixture to steep for 10-15 mins.
 -I then moved immersed the pot into a cold-water sink.
  -When the water would become warm I would drain and add more cold in.
  -It cooled much more quickly then I expected, went down to about 65 degrees.
I poured the wort into my plastic primary through a strainer to catch the
hops and undissolved crystal malt.  I then added three more gallons of cool
water.  This brought the temp lower than I wanted (I don't remember the
exact level I measured.)
 -I then added one package of EDME dried yeast.  This is all I know about
 this yeast, as I'm new and hope that the name rings a bell.
 -I sealed it and attached the airlock.

The problem is this.  After four days, I've had virtually no activity from
the yeast.  There was some tiny bubbles at first and for about one day,
the water in the airlock was being pushed (I've got a "S" shaped airlock).
After that day it hasn't moved at all.  Yesterday I took a peek and although
it smelled very nice indeed, I could see yeast still floating on the top
(At least that's what it looked like).

I thought that perhaps I added the yeast when the wort was too cold but I
thought that as the liquid moved closer to room temp (68-70 degrees) it
would activate.  Was I wrong about this?  I moved the primary to a warmer
portion of my home and in 24 hours there's still been no activity.

What should I do?  Is it hopeless?  Should I just toss the stuff and start
again?  If you have any words of wisdom, feel free to e-mail me privately.
I'd be happy to post a summary to the digest so that any other new brewers
can benefit from the responses.  Thank you for your time.

Andrew Cope

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:23:25 -0500
From: little at charlotte.med.nyu.edu (Alvin Little)
Subject: south FL watering holes

From: Skip
      little at charlotte.med.nyu.edu
Subject: Brewpubs, pubs in S. FL

I'll be visiting South Miami Beach and the Keys, in a month and would
appreciate any info on pubs with good beer selections or brew pubs in that
area.  Responses by private e-mail are welcome.

Slainte.


Return to table of contents


Date: 27 Jan 95 11:30:47 EST
From: Ifor Williams <100140.2651 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Ascorbic Acid

I was reading an item in the Winter Zymurgy about bottle caps that
reduce oxidation of beer and was wondering why not add anti-oxidants
to the beer instead? Would  a dose of Vitamin C achieve the same effect?
If so, how much? Could this have a negative effect on the beer?

Does anybody have any experience/comments?

Cheers,

Ifor.   


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:37:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Middle Ages Water

(From *Jeff* Renner)

In HBD 1642, Mark Witherspoon said 

>Subject: Middle ages water.
>
>The reason bear and wine were the things to drink then and now
>was the pollution of the local water supply.  The water over
>there then was full of bacteria (typhus, ameboa, step,staff,
>etc..). 

Sorry, Mark.  I'm not picking on you, but there are some problems here (I
checked my facts on these critters in the World Book Encyclopedia, 1988,
articles on each).

"typhus" - Nope, typhoid.  Typhus rickettsia are transmitted by lice, fleas,
ticks or mites.  Typhoid, which means "typhus-like," is water borne, and was
indeed, and still is in much of the world, a great problem.

"ameboa" - Ameba are protozoa, not bacteria, but you are right, while most
are harmless, one kind causes amebic dysentery, a serious water borne
disease. 

"step" - Streptococci are generally air borne in moisture droplets sprayed
from nose or mouth. 

"staff" - Staphylococci are indeed found everywhere, including in water. 
They can cause food poisoning, but not the bacteria themselves.  The
toxins they produce cause the disease, and these are produced in
contaminated food, not in water. 

>The boiling of the wort and the fermenting (alchol
>creation) would destroy all or most of the bacteria content.

True enough, but boiling was not a universal part of brewing.  Some
authors even claimed that boiling made unhealthful beer! (I can't give you
the source for this - I read it years ago in several brewing histories). 
More important is/was the low pH of the beer.  Beer in those days was
probably more like lambic.  It was difficult to avoid acid producing
lactobacillus infections that dropped the pH even further than in 
modern beers, preventing the growth of pathogens. 

>Now days the local water is so full of heavy metals that
>boiling will cause most of them to drop out or be absorbed by
>the grain, protein, and yeast.

Whoa!  Several problems here.  What local water?  There are strict federal
regulations (which can be superseded by even more stringent state
requirements). (These are examples of "unfunded federal mandates).  Lead
and copper are mostly a problem in distribution (where water stands in
lead or copper pipes, especially with lead solder.  The limits are 15
micrograms/l Pb and 1.3 mg/l Cu in the 90% highest risk households.  Ann
Arbor, for example, easily meets these.  Other limits:  arsenic - 0.05g
mg/l (AA, 0.0004);  cadmium - .005 mg/l (AA, none detected at 0.001
limit); chromium - 0.1 mg/l (AA n.d. at 0.001); selenium - 0.05 mg/l (AA
n.d. at 0.005). (Thanks to AA Water Treatment water quality manager for
these numbers, no affiliation etc., not even a satisfied customer any more
since I'm now on well water).  I don't think your statement can be
justified, at least as a general indictment of municipal water. I also
don't know how boiling would remove heavy metals, and wonder what
mechanism you propose for their absorption by grain, protein and yeast. 
 
I'm sorry that this may look like a flame.  It isn't intended as one, but
rather a correction that must be made publically since the claims were
public.  I hope I was gentle. 

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:58:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Kempisty - 957-8365 <MKEMPISTY at gic.gi.com>
Subject: Philly homebrew shop

In HBD #1640 Rick Gontarek asked if there were any homebrew shopy in the 
Northeast section of Philadelphia.

Though not in Northeast Philly, Homebrewers Outlet in Fairless Hills 
near the Oxford Valley Mall shouldn't be too far.  Though the store is 
small (10 X 15 feet sub-leased from a beer distributer) he has 
everything you might need.  And if it isn't in stock he will gladly 
order it for you.  Prices are average.  You can call your order in ahead 
of time and pick up.

Finally, if you want to talk beer and brewing you can spend hours doing 
it with him or his significant other.  He has had to cut back on some of 
the shop's hours because of twins but is open evenings and all day 
Saturday.

If you want to know their phone number and address, let me know via 
E-mail and I will send them to you.

And now the usual stupid disclaimer...
I have no interest in his business venture.  Just an extremely satisfied 
customer.

- -- Mark mkempisty at gic.gi.com)


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:56:23 -0500
From: PGBABCOCK at aol.com
Subject: RE:Stout Subs, Cornies, et al

This is a REAL long one, so please bear with me....

In HBD #1642:

 -=> M.Marshburn asks about roasting his own specialty barley malts, and
whether to use wheat flour in place of wheat grains...

Dave Miller treats the subject of home roasting malts in his Handbook of
Hombrewing (or whatever. Far too many 'Handbook'  titles out there to keep
track of <G>). I've tried his method with good success.

As far as using the flour goes: You can do it, but I wouldn't want to be
running that sparge!  Mashing flours yields more (usually) than mashing
cracked grains, so you may want to use less. I can't tell you how to avoid
the sparge-sticking you're in for...

 -=>Wade Wallinger expounds on his kegging experiences and asks for others...

Process 1: Pressure test...

I use a squirt bottle filled a solution of about an ounce of dish soap to
about 4 ozs. H2O. I spray down all the fittings, the bung, and the seam
(where exposed). I pressurize to 20 lbs (no ramp-up), and hunt for bubbles. I
then rinse all the soap off before proceding. Pressure is more easily
released by lifting the pressure relief lever or ring (if so equipped) than
by either of the fittings.

One thing I noticed is that, on most of my kegs, the bung cover goes on in
only one direction without leaks. I've numbered the kegs and cover, and
marked each keg and it's cover to ensure the same match and direction each
time (used a cheap engraver). 

Your overnight test is an excellent idea for new or questionable kegs,
though. I've a few I'll try this on...

Process 2: Sanitize the keg

Many will argue, but: not only CAN chlorine attack SS, it WILL at every
opportunity! And, the effects are cumulative. Even chlorinated tap water is
contributing to some degree.

I recommend NOT using any chlorine compounds to sanitize SS. SS ceiling
structures over indoor pools have been embrittled by airborne chlorine from
the pool over time. I would imagine the airborne concentration is much less
than that used for sanitation (not an expert). I recommend Iodophur (sp) or
other non-chlorine sanitizers.

Many will argue again, but rinsing may counter any sanitizing done.
 Personally, I DO rinse - but I get current (monthly) water analysis reports
from the city and monitor THM levels and organics. I also filter with
activated charcoal (whole house system) and crank my water heater up prior to
any of these activities. I guess my recommendation here is to rinse only if
you know your water. Otherwise, use solutions/concentrations that allow
rinse-free sanitation.

Process 4: Filling

Prior to racking the beer to your keg, allow CO2 to run in with the bung
open. This displaces air in the keg, protecting beer from oxidation (CO2 is
heavier than air). I bought an extra outlet fitting which I have attached to
the other end of my racking hose.  This allows me to rack my brew from the
bottom of the carboy or priming bucket to the bottom of the keg - ie. no
splashing!

I then fit the bung cover (after removing the racking fitting) and pressurize
the keg with 5 psi or so to seal it before I throw the bung bail.

Additional goodies on the subject:

To cool your beer without a fridge, get the following:
15 - 20' x 1/4"OD  copper or SS tubing
6' x 1/4" ID food grade vinyl hose
1 Cornelius Outlet fitting
1 Picnic Spigot
4 small diameter hose clamps
Extra 5 gal bucket

Coil the copper around the bottom of your keg (Just using the keg as a form
here...). Attach 3' of hose to each end of the copper and clamp in place.
Attach Cornie outlet fitting to one end and spigot to the other. Clamp in
place.

Sanitize the assembly. 

Drop the coil in the bucket, fill the bucket with ice, attach to keg, and
dispense cold beer. This device is commonly referred to as a 'Jockey-box'. As
an alternative, you can build the coil into a cooler (steel cooler
recommended) and attach a bar-style beer faucet to it. Great for picnics!

 -=> Dave Housman expresses his opinion about the cost of Irish Moss
(Carrageenan)...

Irish moss CAN be had cheaply; however, I've seen homebrew supply shops
charging as much $1.99 for 1/4 oz of this stuff. Being most of us buy from
local shops, we pay the high price. I feel for Jim; I agree with Dave... It's
all about choices.

 -=> Dave Ebert asks for opinions about allowing the wort to stand for 24 hrs
prior to pitching...

IMHO, some of the break material that settles out in that preliminary 'rest'
would be 'kicked back into suspension' by the CO2 evolving from the busily
fermenting yeast (without the preliminary rest). By the same token, the
majority of re-suspended material could be settled out with a rest in the
secondary following fermentation.  At this time, there is little or no CO2 bei
ng generated - (bubbling here is usually due to out-gassing of
suspended/dissolved CO2).

To make a short story even longer, it should improve the clarity of the
finished beer. Depending on your 'normal' practices, this could be a vast,
noticeable improvement, or negligible.  BTW, if you can cool the beer during
this rest (spare refrigerator), you may even settle out some chill haze
constituents...

 -=>Bill Perry asks about reasonably-priced Cornie's.

The most reasonable I've found in mail order was from Maltose Express
(1-800-MALTOSE). I don't recall the price off-hand (call for their catalog.
Includes useful profiles on yeast!!!), but I know they had both 5 and 3
gallon at the same price (between 30 and 45 as I recall). Also had good
prices on regulators, tanks, etc... (BTW: I'm not affiliated with them or any
other supplier.)

 -=>Darn! I had a question, but after all that I've forgotten what it was...
;-)

"Beer is life! (The rest is just details...)"

Brew On!
Pat Babcock
President, Chief Taste-Tester, and Consumer Numero Uno
Drinkur Purdee Pico Brewery
pgbabcock at aol.com
brewbeerd at aol.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:38 -0800 (PST)
From: kr_roberson at ccmail.pnl.gov
Subject: Scaling Bitterness Efficiency

Greetings from the confluence of the Columbia, Yakima and Snake rivers,
I was wondering if anyone had any data on how the hop utilization
factors might scale with batch size. I've been using the common chart
that tops out with 30% after 60 minutes (at low gravity). There is
a correction for density, but not for batch size. I make 6 gal. 
batches now and I know things will change as I move up to 1bbl to
7 bbls. Changes in extraction efficiency I think I can handle by
checking the gravity (although tips on how this might scale would 
be gratefully accepted) and timing the boil, but how IBUs will 
change is harder (I think). I would expect that I would need to 
start off low and extend the boil until it tasted "right". 
However, my bitter wort taster is not as well calibrated as my 
finished beer taster!

Let me know if this is treated in the archives somewhere,
Kyle

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:22:44 -0400
From: Gordon Dutrisac <ac075 at cfn.cs.dal.ca>
Subject: Homebrew books

My roommate and I recently purchased a homebrew kit and are really 
interested in learning all we can about kit and scratch brewing.  Could 
anybody suggest good comprehensive books on the topic.

thanks for your help,

Gordon Dutrisac
Halifax, N.S.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 13:33:04 EST
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com.apci.com (Terry Terfinko)
Subject: GABF/Denver Tour

     I am planning a trip this October to the Great American Beer Fest in
Denver.  I plan to spend a week in the Denver area and would 
appreciate any information on breweries/brew pubs to visit.  Also any 
advice on hotels in close proximity to the convention center were the 
beer fest is held would be helpful.

Terry Terfinko - terfintt at ttown.apci.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 13:39:50 EST
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: DC Pilsner malt in PU clones

In my post on Brewing a PU clone I mentioned that the German Pils malts 
from Durst and Ireks were superior based on prior posted info.  That ifo 
was from George Fix, In one of the first issues of Brewing Techniques he 
reviewed the DC malts.  He mentioned that the Plis was a highly modified 
malt and that it was low in, SMM, a sulphur compond which contributes to 
malty flavor and aroma.  In a more recent post to HBD Doctor Fix mentions 
that the type of grain used for the Pils malt had changed, d that it had 
high nitrogen and other chacteristics and these made it a lower quality 
malt than the original DC Pils.

In another post Fix mentions that the degree of modification of continental 
malts like Durst and Ireks had increased, he still felt that they should be 
protein rested.  Going from memory now, I believe he described them as 
"less modified" malts putting them between under modified and highly 
modified.

Lee  

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 11:03:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Yeast Culturing/Redox Stain/Diacetyl Measurement


RE: The Practical Brewer (Chapter XI, Yeast-Stains and Handling Techniques)

See p. 203 para. 2, referring to respiratory-deficient mutants (petites):

"Since they do not posess oxidative properties, their colonies can be
easily distinguised on agar plates by adding a redox stain, e.g.,
tri-phenyltetrazolium chloride. [TPC]"

Based on a description of TPC in my reagent catalog, it is mixed in with
the agar (or other) culture medium when preparing plates or slants.  My
question for you yeast farmers is: have any of you used TPC for RD
mutant detection, and if so, how much do you use in the medium?  I
haven't done any culturing--I guess there is no reason to expect any
mutants on a slant prepared from a lab culture yeast, but I'm thinking
the occassional use of TPC would provide an entertaining spot check
for slants that had been sub-cultured over many generations or maybe
cultured from beer wort populations.

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:24:29 +0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A.J. deLange)
Subject: More on pH Meters

The following long post was generated as a letter to the editors in
response to Dave Miller's column in the last Brewing Techniques but answers
some questions I received from my last post on the subject of pH meters
here.


In measuring the pH of wort there are two effects involved both of which
need to be accounted for. First, the true pH of wort varies with
temperature. Wort is acidic (pH less than 7). This means that organic acids
(in particular phytic acid) are present and are disassociated.
Disassociation is a process in which the acid molecule gives up one or more
protons (hydrogen ions). The pH is proportional to the negative logarithm
of the hydrogen ion concentration so that the more disassociation which
takes place the lower the pH (no wonder it's confusing). Unsurprisingly the
degree of disassociation is a function of the temperature and increases as
wort temperature rises. Thus a particular wort is more acidic and has a
lower pH (by typically 0.35 pH) when it is hot (65C) than when it is cool
(18C).

Second, the pH electrode is in reality a very feeble battery whose terminal
voltage depends upon the pH (hydrogen ion concentration) of the wort and
the temperature except at pH 7. At this pH an ideal glass electrode
produces 0 millivolts (mV) at any temperature.  At 25 C  an ideal glass
electrode would produce +59.17 mV for each unit of pH less than 7 (e.g.
118.34 mV for pH 5). The mV per pH unit is directly proportional to the
absolute temperature (obtained by adding the centigrade temperature to
273.16) of the solution. Thus, in general,  the ideal electrode produces a
voltage V = 59.17(7 - pH)(T + 273.16)/(25 + 273.16) mV where T is the
temperature of the solution (wort) in degrees C. The foregoing means that
if a  perfect buffer (true pH constant with temperature) is measured with
an uncompensated meter the pH reading will depend upon the temperature.

With respect to the first issue; the brewer who wishes to benefit from
guidance like: "An infusion mash is best carried out at pH 5.2 - 5.4."
[Briggs, Hough, Stevens and Young, Malting and Brewing Science, Vol I p279]
must know the temperature at which the pH was specified. The sentence in
this reference which follows the one just quoted says "Consequently the pH
in the cooled wort will be 5.5 - 5.8 [at 18C]" so it is quite clear that
these authors are specifying the pH at the temperatue of the mash.
Conversely, DeClerk [A Textbook of Brewing, Vol 1 p267] says "When pH is
mentioned in connection with mashing, it always refers to the cooled wort"
but then on the next page:  "...for a correct appraisal of the situation
the pH should be measured at the temperature of the reaction."  If the
brewer ignores this last bit of advice or is compelled to measure cool wort
because his meter won't withstand the temperatures of the mash then he must
correct the reading to the temperature at which he wishes to know the pH if
it is different from the one at which he took the measurement. As indicated
above this correction amounts to an average of 0.35 pH units (the
correction varies somewhat according to the composition of the grist and
the liquor) to be added to a reading made at 65C to get the value at 18 C
or subtracted from a reading at 18C to get the value at 65 C. I repeat for
emphasis that this is not a correction for the electrical response of the
meter electrode to temperature which correction is assumed to have made
before this correction is applied.

With respect to the second issue; there is no such thing as an ideal glass
electrode and even if there were ideal performance would not be acheived
because of imperfections in the meter which measures its voltage. This
means that a real electrode does not give 0 mV at pH 7 nor does its output
change by 59.17 mV per pH unit at 25C. Buffers (solutions with known pH)
and calibration via controls or computation are used to overcome the basic
limitations of the instrument. Success depends upon the degree to which the
voltage produced is a linear function of the pH and the absolute
temperature.

There can be from 0 to 3 calibration controls on a pH meter. One is the
offset or zero control. To use it one places the electrode in pH 7 buffer
and adjusts the control until the meter reads pH 7 (or 0 mV on meters which
also have a millivolt scale). The second control is the "span" control
which adjusts the meter so that it reads the pH of a second buffer (pH 4
for brewing applications) correctly.  If the third control is present it is
the temperature compensation control and should be set to the buffer
temperature when buffer readings are made and to the wort temperature when
wort readings are made.

Automatic meters don't have controls. They are simply millivolt meters with
a microcomputer and a display. Let us pretend that one of these meters as
its first processing step converts every millivolt reading to pH by
dividing by 61 and subtracting from 7.  This is exactly what a cheap pH
meter i.e. one with no controls does: convert millivolts to pH. The 61
mV/pH is the theoretical sensitivity at 34C so that such a meter  is
"calibrated" in terms of span at that temperature i.e. the pH reading would
change by 1 for every unit of true pH change in a wort at 34C. Now let us
list the steps that the microprocessor in an ATC meter would go through to
measure and display a corrected (for span, offset and temperature) pH
reading. A brewer can correct readings from a cheap meter using these same
steps.

To illustrate the correction algorithm let's further suppose that the meter
has an offset of +12 mV so that it reads 7 - 12/61 = 6.80 when the
electrode is in pH 7 buffer and give numerical values (in brackets) with
each step for a situation where a wort at pH 5.00 at 65C is to be measured.
We will assume that the buffers are at 20C.

a.  Read the temperature of the buffers and store in memory. [Example: 20C].
b.  With the electrode in the pH 7 buffer, take and store the pH reading.
[Example: 6.80]
c.  With the electrode in the pH 4 buffer, take and store the pH reading.
[Example: 3.94]
d.  Compute the span at the buffer temperature by differencing the buffer
readings [Example 6.80 - 3.94 = 2.86 ]
f.  Read the temperature of the wort. [Example 65C]
g. Compute the span at the wort temperature: (new span) = (buffer
span)(wort temp +             273)/(buffer temp + 273) [ Example 2.86(65 +
273)/(20 + 273) = 3.30 ]
h. With the electrode in the wort take and store the pH reading. [Example 4.60]
i.  Subtract the wort pH reading from the pH 7 buffer reading. [Example
6.80 - 4.60 = 2.20]
j.  Divide by the new span. [Example 2.20/3.30 = 0.667]
k.  Multiply by 3 (the difference in the true buffer pHs). [Example
(3)(0.667) = 2.00]
l.  Subtract this from 7. [Example 7 - 2.00 = 5.00]

If the meter has any controls one may use them or not as desired. Adjust a
zero control to read 7.00 in the pH 7 buffer. Adjust a span control (after
adjusting the 0 control) to read 4.00 in the pH 4 buffer. The correction
procedure is unchanged.

Finally I'd like to raise a cautionary note concerning the sticking of
electrodes into the mash tun. One of the most popular pH meter references
is the calomel half cell. Calomel is mercuric chloride and it starts to
decompose at around 140 F. If one were to place such an electrode into hot
mash one would, at best, destroy the electrode and at worst (although you
very probably won't) get mercuric ions into the beer. Before placing an
electrode into the mash the brewer must know the composition of the
electrode, that it will withstand the temperatures involved and that the
fill solution, some of which will pass into the mash, is innocuous. If
uncertain, withdraw a sample for testing and discard it.


A.J. deLange
ajdel at interramp.com
A.J._deLange at csgi.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 11:28:29 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: all grain-taking the plunge

>>>>> "ray" == ray fugitt <rfugitt at ix.netcom.com> writes:

ray> I am ready to take the plunge, I'm looking for suggestions on a all 
ray> grain system. I am looking to buy one, not make it. The biggest 
ray> limitation is I live in an apartment, not alot of room. I am interested 
ray> in a system that has it's own heating source if possible, my stove does 
ray> not heat up well. Dealers replies welcome. 

ray> rfugitt at ix.netcom.com


You may want to investigate a RIMS system due to the fact that it
heats the mash with an electric element.  The boil can be done with a
propane burner camp stove.  However, they are very expensive to
construct.  Look in the 1992 Zymurgy Special Issue for an article by
Rodney Morris on RIMS construction.  After reading it, ask me any
questions you desire.  I am an expert.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 11:36:51 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: where to get cheap/good 5 gallon popkegs

>>>>> "William" == William Perry <William.L.Perry.13 at nd.edu> writes:

Bill> Sorry to post here and not on the news group, but our news
Bill> server is having its midlife crisis right now and has decided
Bill> not to accept postings for some odd reason.  Anyway, I am
Bill> interested in purchasing or finding 5 gallon pop kegs.  I have
Bill> tried all of the bottlers in south Bend, Indiana (no laughing
Bill> please) and they were not helpful at all.  If anyone has
Bill> suggestions on where I might get them relatively cheap I would
Bill> appreciate it.  The cheaper the better according to my wife.  I
Bill> would be interested in buying 4 or so for all of the different
Bill> brews.  Thank you very much, Bill Perry

First try looking in Zymurgy for ads.  They will be more expensive
than the second option, but have generally been pressure tested and
maybe have even had the rubber O-rings replaced.

Then try looking at scrap metal recycling yards.  I got 12 kegs last
weekend for $5 each.  All of them were holding pressure and a little
bit of soda syrup when I got them and they had obviously been sitting
in the scrap yard a long time.  Of course, they will require
re-gasketing before use which is an additional expense.  I had to
drive 1.5 hours each way to reach this scrap yard, but for kegs I
could cherry pick and were in excellent shape (no dings, dirty as
hell, no leaks) it sure was worth it.

Unless you are a reasonable distance from Santa Ana, CA, don't bother
asking for the name of the scrap yard.  They don't do mail order and I
won't either.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 13:55:49 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: stout substitutes

I tried mailing this directly but it bounced.
The question was about substitutions for
Barrel of Monkeys Wheat Oatmeal Stout.

Mike,

You are missing the key ingredients to make a stout of any
type let alone the recipe that you are describing.  The 
roasted barley in a classic dry stout is unmalted.  Some varieties
of stout have substituted black patent or chocolate malt for the
roast but you will not have the fantastic roasty aroma that 
accompanies a good stout.  Raw wheat (unmalted) is not an 
appropriate substitute for malted wheat.  I would recommend that
you either omit the whole wheat flour or get the real thing.

The oatmeal stout substitutes the classic "flaked Barley" that
is used in the making of a classic dry stout.  It adds body and
head retention.  It has a smoother note than the barley.  Some
describe it as silky.

To sum up, I would go through the trouble of getting the ingredients
you need rather than improvise.  If the ingredients weren't so
critical to the style you are trying to make it would be ok but
the roasted barley (and to a lesser degree the wheat malt) is 
very important.  Try your homebrew supplier or mail order.
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:07:48 -0600 (CST)
From: davidc at office.sirsi.com (David Campbell)
Subject: Huntsville Area Brew Clubs

I am fairly new to the Huntsville area, and would like to know of any
home brew clubs around. Private email is fine.

davidc at office.sirsi.com 

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:57:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Isabel Kazimierczuk <iek at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: beer

I'm a beer lover. Send me info on the best brewing!           Isabel


Return to table of contents


Date:        Fri, 27 Jan 95 17:03:07 EST
From: "MATTHEW F. BAYLEY" <BM#B%LAFAYACS.bitnet at lafibm.lafayette.edu>
Subject: Cheers & Salutes

I'm looking for a short (20 or so words) quote/cheer/saying
to engrave on pewter flasks for the men (by far still boys
in many people's minds) in my bridal party.  Humorous,
sentimental, or just plain old salutations are all welcome-
especially those personal favorites.  If it helps any, we've all
known each other for a good 15 years, and none of us are any
strangers to throwing a few back!  Many Thanks!

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:14:02 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: PU Clone yeast


Text item: Text_1


The best yeast for a Pilsener Urquell clone is from Brewers Resource.  I 
don't remember the order name, but just ask for the PU like yeast.  It 
gives that nice hint of buttery flavor that PU has.  The yeast is 
reportably the same yeast as PU uses. Yes I know that PU has 3-5 strains 
of yeast, but I have used this yeast many, many, many times and it 
produces that authentic PU yeast profile.

Brewers Resource can be reached at : 800-827-3983

martin

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 18:58:58 -0500
From: cstrick at iu.net (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Kraustening

Let me try one more time.  I tried kraustening a batch of beer.  I saved off 
about 40 oz of 1.062 beer.  I primed with the "green" beer, based on the 
bottles I believe it's a slight bit overprimed (I can live with that).  My 
major problem is that I have about 1" of crap in the bottom of the bottle 
now.  How can I use kraustening and avoid the sediment in bottom of the bottles?

Also, I was given the maltmill for a Christmas present (I was using a 
blender). My specific gravity has gone from the 1.044-1.052 range to the 
1.058 to 1.064 range.  The mill was expensive, $149 but it's been well worth it.

I am now the proud owner of seven mini-kegs, I'm in love!  I use three per 
batch of beer, and bottle between 4 and 9 bottles (depending on size of 
bottles).  I'll never go back to all-bottling again.  I've been using the 
mini-kegs for the last six batches or so.
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick at iu.net


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 19:21:41 -0500
From: KBONNEMA at aol.com
Subject: High gravity brewing?

I've been browsing through many back issues of the digest and remember seeing
a post about "high gravity" brewing (sorry I can't remember the issue.)  I
have been partial mashing for a few months now, and would like to move to
all-grain, except for one problem, I don't have the equipment or facilities
to do a full wort boil.  My question for the HBD continum is:  What are the
draw backs of going to all grain receipe's but only boiling ~2 to 3 gallons
of the wort, and making up the difference by adding water to the fermenter
(as in extract brewing) ?  It seems that other than sanitation and hop
utilization concerns, that this would provide an avenue for much better
brews.  A post or Email would both be welcome. TIA....Kurt

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:14:07 -0600
From: mpeacock at dttus.com
Subject: Source for CAMRA Book

     Can anyone suggest a US source for the CAMRA book "Brew Your 
     Own Real Ale At Home"?  Even some biblographic info with an 
     ISBN would help -- with that I might be able to have 
     Border's special order it.
     
     TIA,
     Mark Peacock
     Birmingham, Michigan  

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 21:06 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Roller mill speed

 
 From: Tom Clifton <0002419419 at mcimail.com>
 
 >The subject has come up regarding the "correct" feed rate (as in feet per
 minute) for a motorized mill.  This would likely  effect the quality of crush
 as well the condition of the grain due to possible shattering or heating of
 the grain if crushed too rapidly. 
 
 I really don't think one could establish any universal "correct feed rate" as 
 it depends too much on the type of rollers.  Within limits, the surface speed 
 of the rollers has more effect on the mills ability to feed grain efficiently 
 than on the quality of the grist.
 
 > Specifically this is in regard  to a mill my father is making from the 
 Chris Barnhart plans.  The mill has been changed a bit by its use of 6" long 
 X 3 5/8" diameter hard maple rollers. 
 
 The key to the answer is the type of texturing used on the rollers.  With 
 none, there probably is no speed slow enough, with very coarse, you can 
 probably go as fast as you want.  The problem you will have with wood is that 
 whatever texturing you use, it is subject to wear and it will need to be 
 renewed on a regular basis.  
 
 As reference points, the MM with 1.5" diameter rollers, is most commonly run 
 at 400 RPM with good results.  The MMII with 3" diameter rollers also runs 
 well at the same speed and one customer ran one at twice that speed, contrary 
 to my advice.
 
 There is a point beyond which nothing is gained but a lot of dust and noise.  
 In a hombrew environment, I would opt for the slow end.
 
 > The drive is via an electric wheelchair motor that turns at 180rpm at 12 
 volts which seems awfully fast for such a diameter roller as this would 
 result in a feed of around 180 feet per minute.
 
 Sounds like a nice loafing speed IF you have the roller textured properly.
 
 >Also of concern is the torque available from the motor.  It is spec'd at 20
 inch pounds when running on 24 volts with a draw of 8.4 amps.
 
 Frankly, I don't think you are even in the ball park.  I found that the MM  
 required 60 in/lb by measurement but in practice, requires several times that 
 if one is to believe what the manufacturers claim for their motors.  I bought 
 a 60 in/lb gear motor and even geared down 2:1, it would only work if the 
 mill was started first.   That's 120 in/lb or 10 ft/lb torque.
 
 I suggest that you don't count on the "when running" condition.  Phones ring 
 and lots of other reasons come up for stopping with the hopper full.  Nothing 
 is a bigger pain than emptying the hopper and the rollers to get it started 
 again.
 
 BTW, the rollers on both MM's are much longer than yours and this would 
 affect both the feeding efficiency and the torque requirements.  However, 
 your larger/shorter rollers probably require as much or more torque than the 
 standard MM.
 
 Just a final note....  I have found over the years that the only people who 
 ever had problems motorizing MM's were the ones who used gear motors and/or 
 hand drills to power them.  You just can't beat a simple motor with pullies 
 and a belt.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1644, 01/30/95