FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Low OG ("Keith Royster")
  Homebrew clubs in Washington,D.C. area (msmith)
  Phila shops. (Alan Folsom)
  Re: Pathogens (Frank Caico)
  SC (Myrtle Beach) Brewpubs? (Bob Bessette)
  Iodine Test Strips - Where? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Mash efficiency ("William F. Cook")
  Cleaning bottles (CA2160)
  Forced Fermentation Test & Priming (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Re: A-B's Use Of Non-reuseable Bottles. (jsigl)
  Newsletter exchanges: add clubs to list AND UPDATE ADDRESSES (Bob Paolino               Research Analyst)
  Sparging with Oatmeal (GRMarkel)
  Coffee Beer ? (Pascal Hua)
  Re: Jockey box (KBONNEMA)
  RE:PVPP (Jim Busch)
  CO2 lines (Terence McGravey {91942})
  Motorizing Grain Mills ("Manning Martin MP")
  help (woods christy m)
  problems with irish moss and EM (Andrew J Donohue)
  optimum mill feed. (TomF775202)
  Re: Kegging problems (TomF775202)
  first batch blues ("kevin staub")
  Central Ill HBC (Tony McCauley)
  OG influences preferred fermentation temp? (Philip Hofstrand)
  Re: Dave's bar/ recipe request/ RIMS (Teddy Winstead)
  MALT gelatinization? (Jim Larsen)
  Adding Hops to hopped kits, Oversized fermentors, Cooling Wort, ("Lee Bussy")
  flames (real ones) / bottles breaking (RONALD DWELLE)
  water and ph question ("colligan,p scott")
  hop utilization/pu-ale??? ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Gelatinization/Protein rests (Jim Busch)
  Re: adviceneeded ("Davis G. Hunt")
  pH testing (Kelly Jones)
  FermTemp (Phil Miller)
  Leaky chiller, infrared light ("Harralson, Kirk")
  Steam Generators (Steve Robinson)
  Weizen.... (John Christophe Alden)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date:          Mon, 30 Jan 1995 08:51:05 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       Low OG

In HBD#1643, Kevin complains that his Original Gravities are coming 
out lower than what the recipie calls for, despite the use of extra 
malt grains.

The first thing I would check for is a poorly calibrated hydrometer.  
>From other comments I have read in HBD, I get the feeling that there 
are more incorrectly calibrated hydrometers than there are good ones.
Put your hydromoter in tap water (or DDI if you can get it) and 
measure.  After adjusting for temp., it should read 1.000.  If it 
reads 0.090 then you need to add 0.010 to all future reading of your 
wort.

Something else you might try is rinsing (sparging) your grain bag and 
putting the rinsate in the wort kettle.  If you are simply throwing 
away the grain bag without rinsing it first, you are throwing away a 
lot of fermentables.
Keith Royster

Work:                            Home:
NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy           720 Pinewood Circle
919 North Main St.               Mooresville, NC 28115
Mooresville, NC 28115            Voice: (704) 663-1098
Voice: (704) 663-1699            
Fax:   (704) 663-6040

n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us     

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 08:56:54 EST
From: msmith at mail2.lmi.org
Subject: Homebrew clubs in Washington,D.C. area


     Looking for information on homebrew clubs in the Washington, D.C. 
     area.  Specifically, northern Virginia.  
     
     TIA,
     mark smith

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 06:01:32 -0800
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: Phila shops.

There are several shops in the city, "Home Sweet Homebrew" is one I've 
heard about.  For those of us who don't go into the city limits very 
often, I recommend Keystone Homebrew in Montgomeryville.  Their number 
is 641-4677, they do a lot of business so stock turns over fairly 
quickly, have good prices, and nice people.  Usual disclaimer, I don't 
work for them, etc., although they do get a lot of my money.

I would strongly recommend against Ambler Woodstove.  Details if anyone 
is interested via email.

Al F.


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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:10:45 +0500
From: fcaico at ycc.Kodak.COM (Frank Caico)
Subject: Re: Pathogens

>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Owen {gowen} <gowen at xis.xerox.com> writes:

    >> During the brewing/fermenting process, the pH of the beer just keeps on
    >> lowering and lowering. I think it bottoms out around 4 (I'm not an
    >> expert I just pretend to be one).  Anyhow, There are no *known*
    >> pathogens that can survive in a medium of this acidity level. In fact,
    >> there are few organisms period that can live in such a hellish
    >> environment.
    >> 
    >> The alcohol that is produced during fermentation is another factor in
    >> limiting the growth of organisms - esp. pathogens.

    Greg> 	If this is true, than what happens if the nasties get the first
    Greg> crack at the wort?  In other words, is it possible that a dangerous
    Greg> organism could get started in the wort before the yeast does and keep
    Greg> the yeast from getting a foothold?  If this happened, then there
    Greg> wouldn't be lowering Ph and there wouldn't be alcohol to kill
    Greg> nasties.

    Greg> 	Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

I am curious as to what other answers will come from this, but here is what I
suspect would happen:

The Yeast will still ferment (They just might not be able to completely
out-compete the other organism. At worst this would add nasty off flavors.
However, as alcohol is produced, the dangerous organism would be killed off due
to the increase in acidity. End of problem.  I don't think there is any
pediococcus that could out compete a reasonable culture of yeast to the point
that know alcohol would get made...

Also note, many pediococci kill themselves off!  They reproduce for a while,
lowereing the pH of the media at the same time, and eventually die due to the
acidity they produce!

Frank
- ----
       __                                                            __
    __/\_\ -------------------------+------------------------------ /_/\__
 __/\_\/_/  Frank L. Caico          |    Eastman Kodak Co.     	    \_\/_/\__
/\_\/_/\_\ -------------------------+    901 Elmgrove Road          /_/\_\/_/\
\/_/\_\/_/  Internet Adress:        |    2/5/EP MC: 35400           \_\/_/\_\/
   \/_/\_\  fcaico at ycc.kodak.com    |    Rochester, NY 14653-5400   /_/\_\/
      \/_/ -------------------------|------------------------------ \_\/

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:01:31 EST
From: Bob Bessette <bessette at hawk.uicc.com>
Subject: SC (Myrtle Beach) Brewpubs?

Fellow Brewers,
 I am going on vacation from April 6th-15th to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina 
and would like to know of any brewpubs/restaurants in the area. Please email 
me directly...TIA...


Bob Bessette (all-grainer and proud of it...)
bessette at uicc.com
Systems Analyst
Unitrode Integrated Circuits
Merrimack, NH 03087


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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 07:25:36 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Iodine Test Strips - Where?

I would like to find some iodine concentration test strips which will
measure in range of 30ppm on down to 0ppm.  I will be testing Iodophor
solution for total dissolved iodine to determine what storage methods
will prolong its life.  In talking with a representative of EcoLab who
makes sanitizers, he mentioned that neither iodophor nor quatenary
sanitizers can be evaluated for their effectiveness based on the color
of the solution.  Bet most of you, too, were under the false
assumption that if it was still orange, it would sanitize, well I have
learned that is false information and I want to find out what is
accurate information.

dion


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Date: 30 Jan 95 10:46:26 EST
From: "William F. Cook" <71533.2750 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mash efficiency

In HBD1637 ANDY WALSH writes:

>Indeed this is one version of "efficiency" and is the one used by commercial
>brewers (also called "extract"). Unfortunately home brewers often talk about 
>"efficiency" meaning what proportion of the theoretical maximum extract yield 
>they get from their mash. ie. Given pale malt can possibly yield 35 
>pts/lb/gallon and a homebrewer gets 30, his "efficiency" can be described as 
>30/35=86% (homebrewers' efficiency), or 30/46=65% (extract). This can be very
>confusing and I am not sure when or why homebrewers first started using this 
>measure.

Flame me if I'm wrong, but...

I believe the reason homebrewers first started using this measure is that it
makes more sense. Theoretical extract is NOT a measure of efficiency. It is a
measure of...theoretical extract. The "homebrewer's" definition of efficiency
is just that: it is the efficiency of the mashing/lautering process, or the
percentage of theoretical extract in the mash that can be extracted using
a particular mashing/lautering system. This efficiency is valid regardless of 
the grain bill, and can be used to estimate OG with a fairly high degree of 
accuracy. Actual extract is only useful when comparing two batches of beer 
made with the same grain bill.

For example, if you make a beer with only Belgian Pale Malt in it, you will
get a very high extract in terms of Pts*gal/lb. This number is then useless
if you try to duplicate the gravity of the beer but only have U.S. 2-row on
hand. But you can use the "homebrewer's" efficiency of the process to 
calculate the required amount of grain. Of course, there are other 
considerations like color, etc. but when trying different recipes or using
recipes out of the Cat's Meow it is much more valuable to know the efficiency
of your process than to know how many Pt*gal/lb you got out of your last
batch.

If commercial brewers use the term efficiency to describe extract, I'm not
sure what they are describing the efficiency of. How would you use that in a
sentence? "British Pale malt is much more efficient than Chocolate malt..." ?

Bill Cook
HydroComp, Inc.
Team Dennis Conner


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Date:         Mon, 30 Jan 95  10:15:00 CST
From: CA2160 at siucvmb.siu.edu
Subject:      Cleaning bottles

SENT BY:  Jonas Hartzler   (CA2160)
          Lab Tech III Ph: 457-6414
          Y'all write back now, ya hear?
I recently spoke to my homebrew supplier about cleaning bottles in a
dishwasher.  He claimed that there was some soap that was ideal for that
kind of thing.  I was under the impression that soap residue will be left
in the bottles.  Can someone tell me the best conditions for using a
dishwasher to clean/sanitize bottles?

Also, thanks to everyone who gave input on the coffee beer.  I plan on
brewing a batch in about three weeks.  I shall post my hopeful success when
the time comes.

Jonas Hartzler

***   Information Technology --- Lab Technician III       ***
***   CA2160  at  siucvmb.siu.edu - Rehn Hall  Room 17       ***

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 11:37:53 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Forced Fermentation Test & Priming

George J. Fix wrote about Mashing Schedules : 
 > The best way known to me for identifying the contribution from wort
 > fermentability is by a forced fermentation test (FFT - not to be confused
 > with the Fast Fourier Transform!). Remove a ~liter of chilled wort, aerate
 > it, and pitch with 2-3 times the normal concentration of yeast (say,
 > 50-60 million cells per ml.). Hold the temperature at 25 C (77F),
 > and within 72-96 hrs. all the fermentables should be metabolized. The
 > final gravity from the FFT will likely be a tad lower than what is
 > achieved in the main batch, but the two should not differ by much.

Pierre Rajotte strongly suggested doing this for all high-gravity
ales, in his talk at the Spirit of Belgium.  The reason is that in
order to carbonate high-gravity beers, it is best to pitch fresh yeast
(of the same strain as the fermentation yeast) at bottling time
(called "repitching" in the Belgian brewing lexicon).  If you add
priming sugar to an incompletely fermented beer and then add fresh
yeast, you've got a formula for overconditioning, and potential bottle
bombs.  

If you do a FFT, then you will know how much fermentable sugar is
still left in the "finished" beer at bottling time.  Roughly, the %
sugar is [FG(beer) - FG(FFT)] / 4.  In an earlier post, I derived the
approximate relation 
	Vol(CO2) = % sugar * 2.5
or
	Vol(CO2) = (FG diff) / 1.6

Say you want 2 volumes of CO2 in your finished beer, then if your FG
difference is more than 3.2, you've already got more than enough sugar
to fully carbonate your beer (and you might want to consider waiting a
bit longer before botting!)  If the FG difference is less than that,
you should add sugar as appropriate to make it up, at the rate of 
2.5 grams/liter (1/3 oz per US gallon) per SG point.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 11:13:52 
From: jsigl at ams.aspectms.com
Subject: Re: A-B's Use Of Non-reuseable Bottles.


     Scott Howe writes in HB 1643:
     
     >  Re:  A-B's Use Of Non-reuseable Bottles.  Just one more
     > reason to not drink any of Budmillercoors' products.  One other
     > poor excuse for bottles is clear Miller Genuine Draft bottles.  A
     > buddy of mine used some once and broke about 6 of them just
     > during thecapping, and about that many after a week in the
     > bottles... 
     
     I'd like to offer a comment on Scott Howe's missive about A-B's
     bottles.  I've had a relatively good experience using A-B returnable
     "bar" bottles.  They're relatively heavy (usually with lots of
     abrasions on the outside from being refilled numerous times) and
     stand up well to capping.  In fact, I've only had one neck snap
     during capping, and I've never had one blow out.  I suspect the
     breakage may have resulted in part from the use of a hand capper
     with excessive downward pressure on my part.  I also like "bar"
     bottles because they come in those great heavy cardboard flip-top
     cases.  They're not easy to find; I've had the best luck in large
     liquor stores.
     
     Jeff Sigl
     

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:26:11 EST
From: Bob Paolino Research Analyst <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Newsletter exchanges: add clubs to list AND UPDATE ADDRESSES     


I recently received a note from a club back East requesting a newsletter
exchange and decided it was time to update our own club mailing list,
particularly now that we are ending our own long newsletter drought.

If you are interested in a newsletter exchange with the Madison Homebrewers and
Tasters Guild, please drop me a note and we will get your club on our list for
newsletters, as well as competition and festival information.  OUR snailmail
address for your club to send us YOUR newsletters is:

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild / P.O. Box 1365 / Madison, WI  53701-1365

If you are receiving (have received) our mailings in the past and have changed
addresses, please send the current club address.  (If you are no longer (or
were never) interested in getting information from us, please let us know that
to so we can save the extra postage and copying costs.)

IF YOU ARE IN A CLUB AND THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR LIAISON WITH OTHER CLUBS IS
NOT AN HBD SUBSCRIBER, PLEASE PRINT THIS NOTE AND PASS IT ON TO THE APPROPRIATE
PERSON.

At least three of our annual events are likely to be of interest to homebrewers
outside the Madcity/WI/IL/IA/MN area:

Big and Huge competition (for higher gravity beers)--MAY

Great Taste of the Midwest craft beer festival--AUGUST (tickets on sale May 1)

November Classic homebrew competition--NOVEMBEER

Hope to hear from you,

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 14:33:20 -0500
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: Sparging with Oatmeal

Mashing with Oats - Special considerations?
Kirk Harralson was asking if oatmeal will cause a stuck sparge. I just brewed
an oatmeal stout,
grain bill:

11 lbs of 2 row
 .25 lbs roasted barley
 .50 chocolate malt
1 lbs crystal malt
1 lbs Cara-Pils malt
and threw in 1 lbs of rolled Quaker Oats and mashed an sparged as usual.
No problems!!  Never knew it was there.
I used 1-1/2 oz of fuggles for bittering and 1/2 oz fuggles for finish
Trying for Samual Smiths but fell a little short. Needed more body, so next
time I'll add more Oatmeal (I'd guess 1/2 lb. or so) and more
finishing/flavor hopping.(lacked in flavor)
F.W.I.W.     Good luck

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Date: 30 Jan 95 14:27:33 EST
From: Pascal Hua <71221.2115 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Coffee Beer ?

Hi,
I would like to know if annybody out there has tried to make coffee flavored
beer ?
	1) Is it anny good !!!???
	2) Do you have anny recipe I could try.  I plan on trying a small batch 
	   first, and see what it tastes like.
Please answer to my address directly, and I will post a digest to the list,
Thanks,
Pascal Hua
71221.2115 at Compuserve.Com


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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 14:51:56 -0500
From: KBONNEMA at aol.com
Subject: Re: Jockey box

In HBD #1644 Pat Babcock (aka Brewbeerd) talks about building a jockey box
with the following equipment:

>To cool your beer without a fridge, get the following:
>15 - 20' x 1/4"OD  copper or SS tubing
>6' x 1/4" ID food grade vinyl hose
>1 Cornelius Outlet fitting
>1 Picnic Spigot
>4 small diameter hose clamps
>Extra 5 gal bucket

I was thinking about building one in a small lunch cooler with copper tubing,
 but the guy at one of the HB supply stores (FH Steinbart in Portland OR)
said not to use copper with finished beer, I'm guessing due to the acidity of
the finished product. He said to use SS or plastic.  I'm curious if this info
is correct or not.  The stainless tubing would run in the neighborhood of
$35-$40 alone (a little more than I want to spent)  Plastic tubing seems to
be to much of an insulator to work very well for this purpose.  So, do you
all have any thoughts?
Thanks

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:51:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE:PVPP

Al nits:

<Careful, careful, Jim... Polyclar (PVPP) attracts tannins, not proteins.

OK, if were nitting here, its polyphenols, which also happen to 
colloid with proteins. 

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:40:07 -0500
From: Terence McGravey {91942} <tpm at swl.msd.ray.com>
Subject: CO2 lines


  I have just recently set up a CO2/Corny keg system and I
bought some 1/4" light blue/clear/reinforced tubing at
Home Depot. The tubing has a pretty strong plastic smell.
Can this influence the smell and or taste of my kegged
beer ? I have not dispensed anything yet but I will be
ready this weekend. I am only using this tubing for the
CO2 lines.

                        Terry McGravey
                        tpm at swl.msd.ray.com

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Date: 30 Jan 1995 17:36:02 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Motorizing Grain Mills

Jack Schmidling wrote about the power required for motorized malt mills:

>Frankly, I don't think you are even in the ball park.  I found that the MM  
>required 60 in/lb by measurement but in practice, requires several >times
that if one is to believe what the manufacturers claim for their >motors.  I
bought a 60 in/lb gear motor and even geared down 2:1, it >would only work if
the mill was started first.   That's 120 in/lb or 10 >ft/lb torque.

Here's another datapoint:  

My Glatt mill is now powered by a 30 in-lb gear motor that turns at 156 RPM. 
Power transfer from the gear motor PTO to the mill is through a split
coupling.  A direct drive arrangement such as this is very compact, and
avoids the hazard of a belt and pulleys.  

It will start from zero-speed with no hesitation, even if the hopper is full
of malted barley or the slightly-more-taxing malted wheat.  I suspect,
however, that the capacitor start-capacitor run induction motor I have is
capable of starting torques greater than its 30 in-lb continuous rating.  I
have not tried un-malted wheat, but my ol' KitchenAid Flour mill is just made
for that.  I also know of a Listermann Philmill which has been motorized
using the same gear motor and direct drive.  

Now, 150 rpm is not all that fast, but it's still more than twice what I
would call a normal sustained hand-crank pace.  The through-put of my Glatt
depends somewhat on the gap setting, and is typically 1.2 to 1.5 pounds per
minute.  Interestingly, measurements taken at slow speeds, cranked by hand,
would have predicted as much as 1.8 lb/min at 156 RPM, so there is a
noticable reduction of through-put with increased cranking speed.

MPM



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Date:         30 Jan 95 06:20:36 
From: cmwoo2 at mail.wm.edu (woods christy m)
Subject:      help

Unfortunalty, I have not found a beer that's great tasting.  The only
thing I have had is Milwalkee's Best. That was poor.  However, I don't
like really strong beer, can you recommend anything?

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 20:15:00 EST
From: andy2 at hogpa.ho.att.com (Andrew J Donohue)
Subject: problems with irish moss and EM

I posted this to RCB with no response so I'll try here. I 
tried Irish moss for the first time on my last batch. I use
an easy masher in a 1/2 keg for a kettle. When I tried to
drain the wort into my fermenter the EM clogged presumably
with break material an irish moss. I always use whole hops
and have never had this problem without the IM. Is there
a trick to this or should I just avoid IM with my system?

Thanks
Andy
andy2 at hogpe.ho.att.com

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:21:57 -0500
From: TomF775202 at aol.com
Subject: optimum mill feed.

I use a 1725 rpm motor with a 2 in. pulley with a 12 in. on my Schmidlings
malt mill. The grind is perfect.

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:22:00 -0500
From: TomF775202 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Kegging problems

I say you have a leak. I chill my beer overnite with about 15 lbs of
pressure, shake it for about 5 min. turn the pressure down to 10lbs and I
have perfectly carbed beer.

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 22:40:31 CST  
From: "kevin staub" <krstaub at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: first batch blues

I brewed my first batch of beer recently and it's only _very_ slightly
carbonated after a week in the bottles.  Is it possible that it will develop
more carbonation with more time? If not are there any possibilities to
remedy the problem?

The beer is a standard ale recipe which was supposed to produce 5 gallons.
When I racked it to my secondary I screwed up a bit on the siphoning and
lost a few quarts.  When I bottled it I slightly lowered the amount of
priming sugar (from 3/4 cup to 5/8 cup) to compensate for the decrease in
volume.  Did I lower the priming level too much?

Any and all suggestions are welcome through private Email.  TIA,

Kevin Staub
KRStaub at Students.Wisc.Edu

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:51:00 -0600 (CST)
From: afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Tony McCauley)
Subject: Central Ill HBC

Just a reminder, the 4th Annual Central Illinois Homebrew Competition is still
open to receive entries.  The original date (Feb 4) published by the AHA is
wrong (my fault).

The re-scheduled competition date  >>>  March 4, 1995.  <<<

Entry cut off date is February 18.

If you are interested in entry information, please contact me.

    Tony McCauley -- afmccaul at ilstu.edu

 .

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:27:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hofstrand <philiph at u.washington.edu>
Subject: OG influences preferred fermentation temp?

Greetings, All:

This is my first post to the HBD, so please be gentle.  I'm a bit
puzzled about a batch I just bottled, perhaps someone can shed some
light on the situation.  My OG was 1.072, and at bottling time my brew
had only reached 1.032 (5.2% ABV, 54% apparent attenuation).  Here are
the relevant details:

    7 lb Laaglander DME
    1 lb honey
    1/4 lb Crystal 80
    Wyeast 1007, pitched from a 1.050 starter and aerated vigorously
    5 days in the primary at 60-64F, visible ferm. slowed at day 4
    5 days in secondary, 55-57F (no visible fermentation)

My understanding was that Wyeast 1007 had an optimal fermentation temp.
of 62F. There were no extreme temperature fluctuations during the
primary, and I had only a 9 hour lag time with a good vigorous
fermentation for 3 days, followed by a sudden dropoff.  I discussed
this with the supply shop where I bought my ingredients, and was told
that most labs test their yeast strains at around 1.048, and that
higher gravity worts require higher temperatures (65-70F).  Does anyone
else's experience confirm this?  They also felt that I didn't allow
enough contact time with the yeast in the primary: 7-10 days was
recommended, so that may be a contributing factor.

I've also seen a few posts on r.c.b. mentioning that Laaglander had a
high percentage of unfermentables.  I've done a previous batch with this
extract, and not been too happy with it, either.  Is this a brand not
generally held in high regard, or are my problems from another source?
Any clues are much appreciated.

Until next time,
Phil

- --
Philip Hofstrand  (philiph at u.washington.edu)

       "In taberna quando sumus, non curamus quid sit humus"
   "When we are in the tavern, we spare no thought for the grave"

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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 13:59 CST
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Re: Dave's bar/ recipe request/ RIMS

In HBD you write:

>I want, that involves some reasonable level of computer interfacing. My first
>thought: an automated beermaker! But a RIMS setup doesn't need terribly
>much control. The software end would only require temperature control, a
>pump, and maybe some valves. The prof wants some reasonably complicated
>programming to happen, so the RIMS seems too basic. RIMS builders feel free
>to correct me on this point. With a RIMS the hardware side would be truly
>challenging, but won't be worth many marks. One further complication: I don't
>have a computer, and don't want to spend tons of money on this project. I 
>figure grab an obsolete 8086 from somewhere, and hopefully only fork out
><$200 (preferably <$100) for it and the kettles, tubing, pump, etc. Does
>anyone think this to be even remotely possible? Please?

I think that your assumptions about RIMS are basically true.  However,
I think that you might not have such a good background in control
theory.  Briefly, there are several ways to do something like
temperature control, among them are (this is not comprehensive, nor am
I an expert on control theory) -- 

* "Bang-bang" control -- actual temperature is below desired
temperature, so turn on heating element until actual temperature
reaches desired temperature.  In a RIMS system, this can have dire
consequences, since there's a pretty substantial lag time between the
time the heated fluid re-enters the mash-tun, and the time that the
runoff from the mash reaches the desired temperature.  This will
likely cause some amount over temperature overshoot.

*  PD/PID control -- I would suggest that you read up on PD
(Proportional Derivative) and PID (Proportional Integral/Derivative)
control methods and try to implement either system for your class.
Basically, these kinds of controllers try to "learn" some data about
how the system reacts to the efforts at control.  It does this by
modelling a function of something like [length of time that element is
on] by [actual temperature change realized].  In this way, it almost
completely avoids overshoot.

*  AI techniques -- you can take PD/PID control one step further and
try to use established Artificial Intelligence techniques to learn
exactly what changes will occur in the system given a certain action.
Reading any decent AI textbook (Luger and Stubblefield is my favorite)
will give you some ideas.
- -- 
Nathaniel Scott "Teddy" Winstead      | http://www.cs.tulane.edu/www/Winstead
winstead at cs.tulane.edu (Preferred)    | HIRE ME!  I'm looking for a summer
winstead%brauerei.uucp at cs.tulane.edu  | job ANYWHERE! Check above URL for 
Fanatical Homebrewer & CS Student     | resume, or E-mail me, and I'll send it!

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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 06:35:45 -0600 (CST)
From: jal at gonix.gonix.com (Jim Larsen)
Subject: MALT gelatinization?


Regarding the recent discussion of the need for a protein rest <140F when 
barley MALT doesn't gelatinize until 149F. Malted grains do not require 
gelatinization. The malting processing eliminates this need. Unmalted 
grains require gelatinization. Performing a protein rest on a grist 
containing unmalted grain is perhaps of marginal benefit. The standard 
practice for handling unmalted grains is to cook (gelatinize) them 
separate, then add them to the main grist. (This is, in effect, what you 
do when you use rolled (cooked, gelatinized) oats.)

A protein rest of malted barley can increase extract efficiency and beer 
clarity. Gelatinization is not relevant to malted grain.

Jim

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Date:          Tue, 31 Jan 1995 06:48:17 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Adding Hops to hopped kits, Oversized fermentors, Cooling Wort, 

Greg Hawley asks about adding hops to a hopped kit:

Good question Greg.  The kit will produce a relatively low hop 
bitterness so adding some won't hurt.  On the other hand, the level 
of bitterness may be just right for say a Pete's like American Brown.

If you add a half an ounce at 10-15 minutes, you will get some more 
flavor and slightly more bittering (low utilization due to gravity 
and boil time) so that might be that way to go.

========================

Ed Hitchcock asks about oversized fermenters,

Ed, we were lucky enough to find just such an animal.... a 13 gallon 
carboy.  I can't tell you where to find one 'cuz I'd buy another if I 
could.  All I can tell you is it's damn heavy when full!

========================

Jonathan Ward  asks about his wort chilling,

Johnathan, if you are getting your wort down to pitching temp in 20 
minutes I think you are doing fine.... you might speed things up by 
going immersion but it is more work.  

========================

Tim Ihde asks about a cloudy brew,

Tim, you answered your own question.  Yes, it was Trub and it was 
probably increased by the Irish Moss.  Nothing to w*rry about.

===========================

Now a personal:  John Gunser (I hope I didn't butcher your name too 
bad), please bounce a note off me... I lost your address (again! :))

- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 06:35:59 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: flames (real ones) / bottles breaking

     I know I had some chem and biology classes way back, but there's many 
     things I just don't know. Two questions:
     
     I decided to try the yeast propogation method described in Charlie 
     P.'s TCJOHB. He says to pour boiling wort into 12 beer bottles. I did. 
     Two broke on the spot. Three others developed cracks which seeped the 
     supposedly sterile wort. Charlie emphasizes the importance of the heat 
     to keep things sterile. So, what is a good method of doing this?
     
     Charlie also has some nice pictures of flaming the lips of the bottles 
     with a propane (butane?) cigarette lighter, but no description of the 
     procedure. So how long do you flame? two seconds? 60 seconds?

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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:25:46 -0500
From: "colligan,p scott" <pscott at cascades.cc.bellcore.com>
Subject: water and ph question

There have been some discussions lately on the variable nature of ground water
and ion concentrations.  Does the ph of ground water also vary with the seasons
and could one successfully "treat" water before mashing to assure a successful
mash?  I realize most people just check the ph after mash in, but I'm concerned
about buying a ph meter and destroying the electrodes.  If one can treat the 
water prior to the mash, what ph would one shoot for?  Thanks in advance.

Scott Colligan (pscott at cc.bellcore.com)

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Date: 31 Jan 95 05:33:45 PST
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: hop utilization/pu-ale???


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  hop utilization/pu-ale???
Date: 1995-01-31 07:13
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. has anyone devised equations for any of the hop utilization data tables
     hop utilization = f(time, malt concentration)?

2. any warm-weather brewers with a pu-"ale" clone recipe?


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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 09:26:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Gelatinization/Protein rests

Doug asks:

<But this begs the question of what good a protein rest really is?
<Malt at 122 deg is not gelatinized so I don't see how the protein
<degrading enzymes can work.  A partial answer might be that they
<really don't; that this protein rest business is somewhat of a farce.
<I have read articles in "Brewing Techniques" and from Dr. Fix and from
<Dave Miller suggesting this.  Dave Miller, in his excellent book
<"Continental Pilsener" states "Recent research indicates that relatively
<little protein degradation takes place in the mash, regardless of
<temperature". Another article (which I can't put my hands on) said,
<in essence, that protein degradation takes place in the malting, not
<in the mash

You are missing a fundamental distinction in mashing, the difference
between protein rests and saccharification rests.  Protein rests are
accomplished by the action of proteolytic enzymes whereas sacch. is
dependent on the action of beta and alpha amylases on starch.  For
starch to convert, it must first be gelatinized.  This is not required
for proteolytic action in the mash.  With respect to the degree of
protein modification in the malting and mashing process, DeClerck
states that the ratio of protein modification is roughly 1:1, 
malting:mashing.  In highly modified UK malts, it tilts to 1:.06 in 
favor of the malting stage.  

- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date:        Mon, 30 Jan 95 12:35:49 CST
From: "Davis G. Hunt" <BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU>
Subject: Re: adviceneeded

I have a few requests for all you homebrewers out there: I am in
desperate need of a GOOD recipe for an oatmeal stout, and a recipe for
an immitation Samuel Smith's Triple Bock.  In addition, I live in
Dallas, Texas and we have a problem with the weather: it does not get
cold enough for long enough to brew a good lager beer.  What can be done
to make a good lager beer without having to buy a separate fridge?
Please send your replys to: <bu01801 at musicb.dcccd.edu> Thank you very
much

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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:48:49 -0700
From: k-jones at ee.utah.edu (Kelly Jones)
Subject: pH testing

First, thanks to A.J. deLange for a good explanation of just what is going
on with pH, temperature and ATC.  It's always refreshing to see an answer
posted by someone who seems to know what's what!

Second, my low-tech solution to two of the problems pointed out by AJ:
Temperature, and dangerous electrolytes.  I made a small sample cell by
soldering an end cap onto a 2" section of 1/2" diameter copper tube.  When
I go to measure pH, I scoop out a sample of wort with the copper sampler,
and immerse it in a coffee cup full of ice-water for about 5-10 seconds.
This quickly cools it to room temp, and I can take an accurate pH reading
without worrying about any temperature corrections for, or damage to, the
meter (although you still may need to subtract a few tenths of a point if
you want the wort pH _at mash temp_, as AJ points out).  I then discard the
sample, so I don't worry about contaminating the mash.

Kelly



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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 09:57:05 -0600
From: pmiller at mmm.com (Phil Miller)
Subject: FermTemp

I've got a brew fridge which I keep in my garage for fermenting and
keeping kegs cold.  Since I live in Minnesota (Land of the Lost
Ice Ages), I actually need to HEAT the fridge for some 5-6 months
out of the year.  I heat the fridge using a 20 watt light bulb wrapped
in aluminum foil.

I used to use a Hunter temperature controller.  When the weather turned
cold, I simply ran the light bulb all the time and let the Hunter
control the fridge to bring the temperature down to the proper setting.
I didn't like this set-up because it's energy wasteful.  (I would
shudder every time I'd hear the compressor kick on to cool the fridge
to 45 F even though the ambient temperature in the garage was -10 F...)

I considered buying a heating/cooling remote bulb thermostat.
W. W. Grainger, Inc has one in their catalog (Item 4E047) made by Penn,
Model A19ABC-24.  It's advertised as a SPDT unit rated for 16A at 120V,
with an 8 ft capillary length.  Temperature range = -30 - 100 with and
adjustable differential between 3-12 F (the measure of how sensative
the unit is to a change in temperature).  Grainger price = $44.65.
The only downside is that you'd have to wire the unit yourself, but
this is really very simple to do.

The reason I didn't buy this is that with the unit, you really can't
plug both the heater and the fridge in at the same time.  I spoke to
an electrician and from what he said, one side of the control loop
will be closed at all times.  That means that either the fridge or
the light bulb will be running at all times.  The unit will control
the temperature like it's supposed to, but the fridge and the light
bulb end up fighting each other so they will be constantly cycling.

Now the way around this is to unplug fridge during the winter and
the heater during the summer.  The only problem I saw was during the
spring and fall when sometimes the ambient would be warmer than
thermostat setting and sometimes cooler.  During those times, you'ld
have to watch the ambient temperature closely and plug in the appropriate
device.  This was more hassle than I wanted.

Around this time, the Ferm Temp was offered by the Brewer's Resource.
The Ferm Temp is a nice little controller with a digital read out to
set and display the temperature.  Also, it has two outlets marked heat
and cool to plug in your light bulb (heat source) and fridge respectively.
The price was about double the Penn unit though.  I called up the BR
and asked them specifically if both the heater and fridge could be
plugged in at the same time.  The guy on the phone assured me that they
could.  He was quite clear on this.  "Just plug the light bulb in the
outlet marked HEAT, the fridge in the outlet marked COOL, set the desired
temperature and never worry about it again."

Based on this recommendation, I ordered one.  After waiting several
months, I finally got one.  Well, the instructions tell a different story.
According to the printed instructions, you can't plug both the heater
and the fridge in at the same time cuz they will cycle endlessly and
fight against each other.

Needless to say, I was more than annoyed.

Moral of the story:  If you don't need the fancy digital display, can
accept a differential of 3F (I think the Ferm Temp is 1F), and aren't
afraid of a very simple wiring job, buy the Penn unit from Grainger
and save yourself $40.

Grainger is located every state as far as I can tell.  You can
reach them toll free at 1-800-323-0620.

Disclaimer:  I've got no interest in Grainger; I'm not even a satisfied
customer since I bought the damn Ferm Temp instead of the Penn.  I don't
know nuthin' 'bout 'lectronics, and maybe the Penn unit don't do what I
think it do.

Phil Miller
pmiller at mmm.com



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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 11:04:21 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Leaky chiller, infrared light

     The connection on the "water in" side of my immersion chiller is 
     simply a hose clamp that tightens and, in a perfect world, seals the 
     plastic tubing from my sink around the copper tubing.  However, if I 
     run the water at more than a trickle, it leaks.  I have tightened the 
     clamp with no success.  The flow through the chiller coils (standard 
     3/8" copper tubing) does not seem to be restricted.  I usually put a 
     towel under the connection and shake my head as I watch it drip, but 
     it does bug the hell out of me.  I have relaxed; I have drank (many) 
     homebrews; now I want it fixed.  I know absolutely nothing about 
     plumbing connections, and any suggestions would be appreciated.  Most 
     of the chillers I have seen in homebrew stores use this same type of 
     connection, so hopefully, somebody out there has an answer.  I have 
     also thought about some kind of water-tight sealant between the 
     plastic and copper, adding another hose clamp, etc..  Comments?
     
     A local grocery store has one of those fill-your-own-bottle super pure 
     water dispenser.  I noticed a purplish glow near the dispenser that 
     turned out to be coming from an infrared light that is turned on and 
     surrounds the water when pouring.  I asked about this, and was told it 
     was for sanitary purposes.  I don't have a clue what the connection 
     could be.  It looked really hoky, but it isn't exactly my field of 
     expertise...  Has anyone else seen one of these, or could shed some 
     light as to what it is for?
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 11:54:39 EST
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: Steam Generators


Mike Branigan asks:

> Is it preferable to drill holes in the copper tubing area immersed in the
> mash tun and pinch the end closed to percolate steam through the mash or
> would it work just as well to leave the tubing in tact and allow the
> condensed steam to run out the end of the tube into a sink, etc. Sort of like
> a wort chiller in reverse. I know the steam won't add any appreciable amount
> of oxygen or water to the mash if bubbles directly into it but just wonder if
> there might be a preference in the design.

I use the percolation method, and would recommend it for two reasons.  First,
the heat transfer is much more efficient bubbling steam into the mash than it
would be with heat transfer through the copper pipe.  You want the steam to
actually condense in the mash to give up its vaporization energy.  Second, I
would be concerned about the safety aspects of having an open steam pipe
venting into my kitchen while I brew.

Steve Robinson in North Andover, MA
steve.robinson at analog.com

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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:05:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Christophe Alden <ja2w+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Weizen....

Hello,

I am about to introduce a friend to the wonders of brewing.  Leaving the
what to brew decision up to him, he decided he likes Weizen beers.  I
was wondering if any of you out there had a good weizen recipe.  I would
like to keep it mostly extract (if possible) to keep it simple for my
friend, but also something to keep me interested. Get the picture? Any
input is appreciated.

Thanks
 -John

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1646, 02/01/95