FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  UV Disinfection of Water (DBURKE)
  More Control Ramblings (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
  Re: More Control Ramblings (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Iodine Test Strips. Where? (Kevin Fogarty)
  Wheat Malt Color (Craig Amundsen)
  Beck's Dark Recipe (JULIO CANSECO)
  Homebrew archives location (Philip Gravel)
  Re: Returned mail: User unknown ("Lee Bussy")
  Aging of homebrew (TPuskar)
  IBU prediction vs reality (MicahM1269)
  recipes with dark malt (Lenny Garfinkel)
  Hops Info Request (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
  Water Formulation Program (Diane S. Put)
  imperial stout ferment (R. M. Landis)
  Ozone (Ed Hitchcock)
  ffts again (ANDY WALSH)
  Homebrew Recipe Archive (Philip Gravel)
  Coming out: ("THE FOURWHEELIN' 'TALIAN WANNABE JOKEMEISTER.")
  Water Chemistry Software (Fred Waltman)
  UK-oriented Homebrewing Newsgroup - Request for feedback. (Tel +44 784 443167)
  Re: Gravity? (Tel +44 784 443167)
  B-Brite (Evan Kraus)
  Heard of this? (CRVAVROSKY)
  Andechs (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  non-alcoholic homebrew ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Capping ("ian sutherland")
  Re: water analysis software (PatrickM50)
  Removing labels ("Keith Royster")
  culturing Chimay yeast (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
  Chiller questions (Jim Busch)
  Re: Plastic labels (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Time to eat crow (Jim Busch)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 14:19:20 -0600
From: DBURKE at smtpgate.tnrcc.texas.gov
Subject:  UV Disinfection of Water

There has been a lot of speculation on the digest lately
about Ultraviolet light disinfection.  Here are some
facts that might be interesting.  Info was gleaned from
an EPA publication entitled "Technologies for Upgrading
Existing or Designing New Drinking Water Treatment
Facilities," document no. EPA/625/4-89/023.

Most water treatment works use chlorine, chlorine
dioxide, or monochloramines to disinfect public water
supplies.  These chemicals can achieve both primary
and secondary disinfection;  that is, they initially
kill the microorganisms and then provide a sufficient
residual amount of disinfectant to keep the water safe
in the distribution system (pipes, to the non-technical).

Chlorine products can have a lot of nasty effects,
though.  Free Cl2 can produce Trihalomethanes (like
Chloroform).  Therefore, if you don't absolutely need
need the residual effect, such as when disinfecting
just before dispensing like in a vending machine, then
you can use something that produces only good primary
disinfection like UV light.

UV produces not toxic residuals, it has short required
contact times, and it is relatively easy to operate and
maintain.  It is effective against viruses and bacteria,
but may be ineffective against giardia lamblia cysts.  
However, most of the vending machines use reverse
osmosis technology as treatment, and the filtration
that the water receives would remove anything the size of
a protozoan cyst like giardia before disinfection occurs
anyway.

Another thing that hinders the effectiveness of UV
is turbidity, or suspended solids in the water but again
the ultrafiltration achieved by the RO system makes that
a non-issue.

So to conclude, UV is really ideal for the vending 
machine systems, since it gets rid of the bad guys and
doesn't produce any new ones of its own (like possibly 
carcinogenic chemicals).  Sorry for the long post, but
there seems to be a lot of interest in water quality
and water treatment on the digest and I thought this
was timely.

Dan
Environmental Engineer
dburke at smtpgate.tnrcc.texas.gov


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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 13:38:35 MST
From: Norman Pyle (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: More Control Ramblings

It seems I've thrown a rock at a bee's nest with my snide remarks about
control theory.  I didn't intend to insult anyone!  Yes, my comments were
unnecessarily gruff, and for that I apologize to Teddy Winstead.  Let me take
another shot at this thing.  I'll paraphrase a couple of emails I got on the
subject.

Dion Hollenbeck wrote me and politely (thanx Dion!) scolded me for ignoring
the distinct possibility of disaster of overshoot.  It seems that in his
experience it isn't anywhere near as simple as I describe.  Dion tried to do
basically what I described and found it to be an unpleasant brewing
experience, because a) he found it easy to leave the on/off switch (which
powers his heating element) in the wrong position, and b) because the large
thermal mass of the system makes the goal temperature difficult to achieve.

Bill Vaughn, who apparently makes a living at this sort of thing, really
blasted me.  He said that the question was how to do this sort of control,
not whether it is "morally right".  I agree with Bill that the original thread
was about how to do it, not whether to do it.  Call this a side thread and
indulge me a bit.  It is not a flame war Bill, nor a cheap shot in my
estimation.

One of the problems I have with many of the RIMS setups I've heard about is
that they monitor the temperature down in the mash rather than at the outlet
of the heating element.  By taking feedback from a spot far removed from the
stimulus, your feedback loop is loose, and control is difficult.  I also
question what happens to the enzymes if they are heated to say, 210F in the
recirculating tubing on their way back to the mash.  I know they are not
denatured instantly but I suspect it is happening at a pretty high rate at
that temperature.  This would also make for a steep temperature ramp, making
overshoot more likely.  So I would monitor temperature at this point in the
system (whether manual or automatic), as well as at a representative point
in the mash.  I'd look for an element with a lower power output than Dion's
1250W element (maybe a steam generator, as was mentioned in HBD before).
The flow rate could be adjusted upward to avoid this problem as well, so
these two key elements (heater and pump) would have to be specified according
to practical considerations.  With this done, I believe that manual control
is easily accomplished.  To prove it to myself, I'd certainly try the thing
with plain water before risking grain to it.  Then I'd fiddle with the system
as necessary, which is what I'm always doing anyway.

My main point is that you have a great controller in your head, and you can
use it to handle this type of system.  Throwing technology at it might work,
in fact clearly does work well for many people, but it isn't simple and it
isn't cheap (note that Dion says his controller is much cheaper than a
rheostat that can handle the large power requirements of his heating element).
Overshoot is one of the big boogie men of control systems, it is not peculiar
to RIMS.  Again, I'm not trying to insult all of those who appreciate
automatic control, I'm just saying that it doesn't have to go part and parcel
with RIMS.  Finally, I don't have a RIMS, so I'm just speculating, but it's
not like that hasn't been done in the HBD before!

Cheers, and please call me:
Norm

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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 13:12:12 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: More Control Ramblings

>>>>> "Norm" == npyle  <Norman> writes:

I think I should reply to a few of your good points and redirect a few
misconceptions.  Going to copy this to HBD since it think it is
valuable for all to understand.

Norm> One of the problems I have with many of the RIMS setups I've
Norm> heard about is that they monitor the temperature down in the
Norm> mash rather than at the outlet of the heating element.  

If built according to the Morris design, the control point is at the
inlet of the heater chamber and the temperature readout at the outlet.
I have not personally heard of any systems built with the temperature
readout in the mash tun, but it may be possible.  Anybody out there do
this?  If maybe you have a microprocessor controlled heater, then
taking a reading in the mash tun *as well* as at the heater and
applying some sort of AI algorithms to ramp down the heater as the
setpoint is reached may be useful, but there are *very* few computer
controlled RIMS systems compared to simple proportional temperature
controllers. 

Norm> By taking feedback from a spot far removed from the stimulus,
Norm> your feedback loop is loose, and control is difficult.  

I agree with you entirely, but I contend that a RIMS system built with
temperature monitoring in the mash bed or anywhere far from the heater
element is improperly constructed.  If you limit the output of the
heated wort at the outlet of the heater chamber to 154F, you can
*never* raise the mash bed above that temp and cause the enzyme
problems you describe.  

Norm> I'd look for an element with a lower power output than Dion's
Norm> 1250W element (maybe a steam generator, as was mentioned in HBD
Norm> before).  The flow rate could be adjusted upward to avoid this
Norm> problem as well, so these two key elements (heater and pump)
Norm> would have to be specified according to practical
Norm> considerations.

A lower power heater element will cause the temperature rise to be too
slow.  High temperature sacchrification rests would be impossible
because the complete conversion would have occurred at lower temps
favoring short sugar chains while passing through that temperature
range on the way to a range favoring longer sugar chains.  The 1.5F
per minute rise achieved by a 1250 watt heater (extremely low density
 - remember, this heater element is 19" long, folded back on it self,
which means a total heater element length of 72") is exactly what
Miller recommends using for upward step mashes.  I agree that higher
rates could be detrimental to the enzymes.  During the boost from one
rest temp to another, the pump should be sped up to account for the
extra heat.  During a rest, the pump can be slowed down.

Norm> With this done, I believe that manual control is easily
Norm> accomplished.  To prove it to myself, I'd certainly try the
Norm> thing with plain water before risking grain to it.

I agree that water is the way to test the system, but even after I did
that, well, I already told you about my disaster.  I think the problem
with your statement is that you are basing it on the assumption that
you can use a lower power heater element.  I don't believe that to be
true.  While you may be able to use a gentler means of heating like
steam you are going to have to make your heat exchange mechanism
*larger* to give you a boost speed of 1.5F per minute.  Morris
designed a gas fired external heat exchanger because of the fact that
people trying to scale a RIMS system up to 15 gals (the practical
limit for the electrical heater element is 10 gal) found the temp
boost to be too slow.  Regardless of the method, to get a boost which
is fast enough without localized overheating, you are going to have to
put in a fixed amount of heat and spread it out over a large area.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 15:02:28 -0700
From: fogarty at solar.sky.net (Kevin Fogarty)
Subject: Iodine Test Strips. Where?

Dion Hollenbeck writes that he is looking for Iodine Test Strips. On the
last 1 Liter bottle of BTF Iodophor that I got was a little card. It was a
free offer of a small number of test strips that measure iodine in the range
of 0-25ppm. 

Along with the strips came an order form for test papers measuring chlorine,
iodine or quaternary ammonium chloride. The price is $3.25 for 2 kits of 50
strips each. The mailing address given was Test Papers, PO Box 611, Winona
MN 55987. Include a self-addressed stamped envelope.

I haven't used them yet. I'm still going by the old bromide that the
solution is still good if it's yellow. I'll be interested to hear your results.


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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 18:22:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Amundsen <amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: Wheat Malt Color

Hi -

  I was just messing about calculating the estimated color (in deg L) of a 
batch o' beer I have in the fermenter. This exercise came to an abrupt end
when I was unable to find the color contribution of wheat malt (eg, a 1.040
OG wort made with entirely with 2-row lager malt will have a color of 1.6L
(according to Miller)). I checked Miller (both books), Papazian (both books),
and The Practical Brewer. None of them are any help on this matter. At least
TCHOHB lists some numbers for the major barley malt flavors. Does anyone
out there have a reasonable number for the color contribution of wheat malt
in a standard wort?

TIA
 - Craig

PS - I have been enjoying the IBU debate quite a bit. I will now probably 
     delay my purchase of _Using Hops_.
- -- 
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Craig Amundsen              | DILBERT - Sometimes I wonder if it's ethical   |
| amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu |           to do these genetic experiments. But |
| (612) 624-2704              |           I rationalize it because it will     |
| 250 Biological Sciences     |           improve the quality of life.         |
| 1445 Gortner Avenue         | DOGBERT - What are you making?                 |
| Saint Paul, MN 55108        | DILBERT - Skunkopotamus.                       |
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+

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Date:         Fri, 03 Feb 95 16:50:47 EST
From: JULIO CANSECO <JCANSECO at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      Beck's Dark Recipe

Would anyone please e-mail me a recipe for a Beck's Dark clone?
Extracts please.
Thanks,

Julio Canseco
jcanseco at uga.cc.uga.edu

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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 95 00:10 CST
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Homebrew archives location

===> Jeff Stampes asks about the new location of the homebrew archives:

>I know the archives have moved, I have even re-read the message
>where we were all informed of this.  However, I still don't know where
>they are now.  I don't know if I'm having ftp problems or if I'm in the
>wrong place, but someone wanna' e-mail me the CURRENT archive location?

They are now located at:   ftp.stanford.edu

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date:          Sat, 4 Feb 1995 07:39:35 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Re: Returned mail: User unknown

Someone with the e-mail address:

<LAVANSA0 at wcc.com>

Sent me a request for a competition packet, the mail bounced.  Please 
mail me again with a valid address.

- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 09:54:38 -0500
From: TPuskar at aol.com
Subject: Aging of homebrew

I've been brewing for about two years now and have never made the same brew
twice.  Not that I haven't tried!!  :-)  Bu that's another issue.

Due to my inherent anal retentive character, whenever I made a batch, I squirr
eld away a few bottles for who knows what reason.  Some of these are now
18-20 months old.  Over the holidays I decided to taste a few of them just
for fun.  With only one exception, they were better than I remember them when
first brewed.  The one exception was my first brew which was made from a kit
which recommended table sugar for brewing and priming.  It tasted more like
seltzer than beer.

Most of the brews were ales and had been stored in my basement here in
Jersey.  Temps fluctuate over the year but are generally between 60-80F.

Since I am impatient, I usually land up testing my beer about a week after
its in the bottles and finishing it within 4-6 weeks of bottling.  My
question is this:  What is the optimum time one should wait before a beer is
considered in its prime?  I know the answer, in part, will be "It depends..."
on a lot of factors including style, yeast, type of fermentation etc.  I
guess I'm curious if I should go on a brewing campaign and brew up 3-4
batches and store them for 6 months or so.  Any comments would be
appreciated.  Post or Email is fine but I think others lurking out there may
be interested as well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On another issue, a good source of plastic buckets for fermenters, bottling
and general homebrew use is the bakery dept of your local supermarket.  My loc
al Grand Union and Pathmark save them for me and I now have a collection of 5
gallon, 4.25 gallon and 3.5 gallon plastic buckets--all food grade with lids.
 The cost: a six pack of homebrew.  I can't take credit for the idea--got it
from The Frugal Brewer article.  There's other good ideas there as well.

Cheers,
Tom Puskar     Brewing better beer--by dumb luck!!


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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 11:29:52 -0500
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: IBU prediction vs reality

Subject: Hop Utilization

>I am going through the process of trying to calculate IBU values, and
>have read the formulas by Rager in the 1990 special issue of Zymurgy, as
>well as the book "Using Hops" by Mark Garetz.  After some
>experimentation, it seems the biggest affect on calculated IBU levels is
>the %utilization value, despite all the other correction factors
>discussed in the Garetz book.  Unfortunately, these two sources differ
>widely, and I recall some discussion as to the appropriate utilization
>values being different from both sources.  Does anyone have any wisdom
>to share on appropriate values to use for the %utilization for different
>boil times?

I think that this hop utilization figure is by far the biggest ??? in these
IBU
prediction formulas. This is my suggestion. Send a bottled sample of your
beer ( one that you have kept good hop use records of ) to be analized. There
are ads for such labs in both Zymurgy and BT. Once you know what the
actual IBUs in a sample of your beer are, you can, using whomevers formula
you like, back out the utilization %. You will then have a better starting
piont
for IBU predictions. But no matter what there will be variables to effect
your
future predictions, IBUs are only really known by testing not quessing. The
formulas should keep you in the ball park.

	
micah millspaw- brewer at large

P.S.         I would like to add that what ever formula that you select to
extrapolate
your % of utilization, you need to stay with that formula for your IBU
predictions.
Also when doing this allow in both the 'beer to be tested' and in your
extrapolation
efforts for incremental time factors. It may be nessesary to figure the
largest and /or
longest time addition of hops to the tested IBU level and interpolate the
rest.
have fun mm


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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:03:48 +0200 (IST)
From: Lenny Garfinkel <lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il>
Subject: recipes with dark malt

I just came into a lot of pale malt and almost as much of a very dark 
malt, which from Papazian's descriptions would be either chocolate or 
black patent.  It tastes burnt and slightly bitter.  It was fun chewing 
on a few grains, but a mouthful would probably be unpleasant.  I have no 
access here to the other types of specialty grains which most of the all 
grain recipes require.  All I have is a few kilograms of pale malt and a few 
kilograms of this dark malt.  The only recipes which I have been able to 
find which require only these two ingredients were for brown ales, which 
are fine, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has any other 
suggestions for how to gainfully use up this load of dark malt.  Is there 
any way that I can make a stout with only these two ingredients?  I do 
have access to oatmeal,BTW.  I'd appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Lenny Garfinkel

p.s. I'm planning a trip to the states in a couple of weeks during 
which I intend to fill up on ingredients.  What small addition to the 
pale and burnt malt above would give me just what I need for that great 
recipe?

_________________________________________________________________
Dr. Leonard Garfinkel       | Internet:  lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il
Bio-Technology General      | Office Phone: 972-8-381256     
Kiryat Weizmann             | Home Phone:   972-8-451505
Rehovot, Israel             | FAX:          972-8-409041
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 95 10:10:44 MST
From: Norman Pyle (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Hops Info Request

To this point, I've ignored some of the more rare (less common?) hops in the
Hops FAQ.  Over the months I've received requests to include some of them,
which I've decided to do, but without more information, it's not much of a
service.  With that in mind, I'm asking for any information you can give me
on the following hops:

Green Bullet (NZ)
Motueka (NZ)
Northdown (UK)
Sticklebract (NZ)
Super Alpha (NZ)
Target (UK)

Also, I'd like to find some commercial examples of beers using the following
hops:

Challenger (is it the same as Wye Challenger?)
Progress
Lublin
Experimental 21484
Spalt
Strisselspalt
Brewer's Gold (Pete's Wicked Ale? - can't remember)
Bullion
Galena
Pride of Ringwood

Thanks for any info you can provide; it will be included in the next revision
of the Hops FAQ.

**

Rich Lenihan writes about Wyeast London ESB yeast:

>Question:  what are other people doing to get this beer to ferment out -
>should I be pitching *more* yeast?  Nutrients?
>
>BTW, I've read here and elsewhere that this yeast is very flocculent and I'm
>convinced.  In each batch the yeast cake was the consistency of tofu.  Also,
>from what I've observed this yeast seems to do better in the high 60's.
>Batch 2, the stuck batch, dropped to around 60F and that's about when the
>gravity stopped falling.

I have a *little* experience with this yeast.  I found that in the low 60's
it will not finish properly and will throw lots of diacetyl.  It worked much
better for me in the high 60's F *with* periodic agitation.  You need to warm
up your stuck batch and agitate it.  Too late to aerate it, but it is
probably worth saving.  I think your biggest problem is with aeration, and
I'd work hard on this.  I really like the flavors from this yeast, BTW, and
the fact that it drops clear so quickly is a nice feature.  For the guy who
wants a fast beer, I'd use this yeast, but make sure you pitch a lot and
aerate a lot.  You'll have bright beer in a week!

Norm

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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 95 09:49:25 PST
From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put)
Subject: Water Formulation Program

>From: "jim robinson" <jim_robinson at ccmailsmtp.ast.com>
>Subject: Water Analysis

<snip>

>Is it possible to come up with a program that the average Joe Brewer 
>can "plug" in his local water numbers and come up with the proper 
>adjustment to make a specific brew?  

Jim, it's already been done.  If you own a spreadsheet program, check
out the Sept/Oct and Nov/Dec 1993 issues of Brewing Techniques.  There's
a spreadsheet design by Karl King.  The Sept/Oct issue has the overall
outline and cell formulas; Nov/Dec has a correction to the formulas--this
is located in the "Technical Communications" section of the ms.

While this is not a "canned" program, anyone with a modicum of spreadsheet
ability can do this without any problems.  I use this spreadsheet for most
of my beers and it works very well.  

don 
Note new address: (dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 04 Feb 95 15:25:35 EST
From: R.M.Landis at Dartmouth.EDU (R. M. Landis)
Subject: imperial stout ferment

Hi.  I've been lurking for a couple of weeks now, and I know there has been
some discussion of stuck fermentation and F.G.'s of stronger beers.  I'm still
left wondering about mine though.  
Here's the situation:  About 3 weeks ago, I brewed an imperial stout from a
recipe in a Dave's book (Line or Miller?  I can't remember- something like
Brewing great beers of the World or something).  Anyway, it seemed turn out
well, with an O.G. of about 1.085 or so.  It underwent a very vigorous primary
ferment for about 5 days.  I used Edme dry ale yeast and the temps were pretty
high (70F).  After it died down, I pitched a dry champagne yeast that I had
started in warm water, and then racked to a secondary fermenter the next
morning.  The gravity at that time was about 1.028.  Since then, I have seen
very little activity in the beer, and very little bubbling in the air lock. 
The temperature has been very variable, at one point going into the high '40's. 
I asked the local homebrew shop about the inactivity, and they said to raise
the temperature.  Well, I got a "brewbelt" heater to put on the carboy and that
raised the temp to about 78F.  I then saw a little activity, but not much. 
After a week of the higher temps, there is still little activity, and the
gravity is still about 1.028.  

 My question is what should I expect to be happening?  Is this beer fermented
out?  or have the little yeasties gone to sleep and won't wake up?  Should I
have patience and keep waiting, or should I stop worrying and just get it in
the bottle?  

Thanks in advance, 

Matt

R.M.Landis at dartmout.edu

P.S.  What does YMMV mean?

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Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:39:01 -0400 (AST)
From: Ed Hitchcock <ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca>
Subject: Ozone


	First, the UV light kills bacteria directly, not by converting 
dissolved O2 to O3.  Second, I believe Ozone (O3) is in fact odourless, 
which makes it pretty darn dangerous.  The odour is from other compounds 
produced by the arc that also produces the ozone.  I remember reading 
about follow-spot operators using carbon arc ("trooper" is now the 
generic name) spots from closed booths, and dying from Ozone poisoning 
during a performance, due to poor ventilation.

   ----------------
ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca
the Pick & Fossil Picobrewery
brewers of Ed's Paleo Pale Ale and Right Coast IPA


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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 11:34:10 +1100
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: ffts again

Hello.
>From some of the replies I got it seems I was not clear in my last
posting on ffts. When I said, "ffts enable you to bottle your beer
earlier" I was not implying you should ferment your main batch at
a higher temperature to speed fermentation. I was suggesting that
since the fft tells you where your main fermentation will stop, you can
bottle the beer *before* the gravity of the main batch reaches the
terminal value. You can use Spencer's formulae to work out the 
amount of priming sugar to add. If you do *not* perform a parallel
fft, you must let your batch mature in the secondary for some time
to ensure fermentation is complete. (Remember I am referring
to strong, Belgian - style ales here that are notorious for long
fermentations).
I have never performed the parallel fft. In 100 or  so batches of 
strong Belgian-style ale, I have only ever had 1 problem in over-
carbonated beer. This was a two-yeast type "Grand Cru" style
(recipe from Pierre Rajotte's "Belgian Ale" book), using
Coopers Ale yeast in the primary (a low attenuator) followed
by a fresh dose of Wyeast Belgian Ale at bottling time. The
second yeast is much more attenuative than the first, and was
that beer over-carbonated! I had to relieve the pressure in each
bottle every day for a week until it was OK (the beer was fine after
that).
This story suggests a second use for ffts. If I had performed the 
fft with the Coopers yeast, then added the bottling yeast to the
fft after it finished, I could have determined the final gravity of the
beer before bottling the main batch. This would have shown me
the amount of priming sugar to add (in this case, none).
I suspect the main reason most of us do not use ffts is the extra
hassle involved. (Hands up, anyone?). One of the problems is 
finding a nice, warm environment. Tom Clifton  suggests a foam
container with a 5W globe inside. This sounds as good as
anything else, so I'll give it a try for my next batch.

Andy.








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Date: Sun, 5 Feb 95 23:32 CST
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Homebrew Recipe Archive

===> Franklin Fuller asks about an archive of beer recipes:

>Does anyone out there know of locations of beer recipes on the Net?  I 
>am still an extract brewer and am looking particularly for extract 
>recipes...although I hope to be brewing all grain sometime soon!

Check out the Cat's Meow 2 at ftp.stanford.edu or the Cat's Meow 3 on
the WWW with the URL of http://alpha.rollanet.org/

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Mon, 06 Feb 1995 01:11:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "THE FOURWHEELIN' 'TALIAN WANNABE JOKEMEISTER." <AD75173%LTUVAX.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Coming out:

You all can add my name to the unwritten list of all-grainers now!!

People said I couldn't do it without experienced help, but I just
read Papazian's books and asked a bunch of questions beforehand.
My first batch was a bit hectic (didn't even coil the imersion
cooler until grains were mashing), but was a success.  I think I
got 81% efficiency.


Mash/lauter - 48qt Coleman cooler, copper tube manifold with slots on
  bottom side.  Used about 4 feet of 1/2" copper to make rectangle-type
  configuration with "T"s and elbows.

Chiller - 40 feet of 3/8" copper refrigerant tubing bent into an 8" coil.
  The siphon hoses were just slipped on the in/out of this, then cold
  water was siphoned through it.  I waited until now to use a chiller
  because I didn't want to waste water, but heard how important they are.
  And besides, I just boiled the water afterwards and saved it in a carboy
  for my next batch.  I will probably use it for starters and topping up
  instead of boiling/cooling water.

Question:
  What does everyone do with their spent grains?  I ate a few spoonfuls
  and even made a pizza, adding about 1/2 cup of them.  The pizza was
  good, but I don't make pizzas big enough to use 9 lb of grain :-)  !

    Aaron Dionne, in Southfield, Michigan

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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:00:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Water Chemistry Software


Jim Robinson asks if any has (or could) write software for helping with 
water chemistry:

Why not a stand alone application, the Brewers Workshop from TKO Software 
(Windows, $30) has such an option. You enter your water analysis and you 
can select either water for a particular style or for one of the major 
historical brewing centers (e.g., Burton, London, Pilsen, Munich, etc.).

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
waltman at netcom.com




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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:57:31 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: UK-oriented Homebrewing Newsgroup - Request for feedback.


6th Feb. 1995 - Second Posting

     This has been posted to The HomeBrew Digest and to
the Usenet Newsgroup rec.crafts.brewing.

     This is a request for feedback on the subject of
setting up a UK-oriented Newsgroup under the uk.* prefix
of Newsgroups.

     As a UK Homebrewer I have found both HBD and r.c.b
to be invaluable and enjoyable aids to improving my
Brew and in meeting new Net-friends on both sides of the
Great Pond. In saying that, however, I and other UK
Homebrewers feel that the orientation of both HBD and r.c.b
tends toward that of US brewing and it is sometimes
difficult for us to find answers to questions that are
heavily oriented toward UK matters.

     There can be no mistake that there are many differences
in the history, styles, methods, ingredients etc. between
UK and US brewing and there is a feeling that a UK-specific
Newsgroup would be useful to UK Homebrewers as well as
non-UK Homebrewers that are interested in UK-specific
brewing matters.

     For this purpose I have been investigating the subject
of creating such a Newsgroup under the uk.* prefix. This
is not an official Usenet prefix but is carried by many
UK News servers and MAY be available outside of the UK but
this is not clear to me at present.

     The uk.* Newsgroups work, to an extent, like the alt.*
Newsgroups in that they are created and maintained in a
less formal way. There is no need for voting as such but
a formal proposal must be submitted and discussed before
the group can be created and it is for this reason that I
am asking for feedback on the subject.

     I am asking anybody who has any opinions on this
subject to EMAIL ME DIRECTLY at...

     B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk

 ...and let me know what you think of the idea. I am proposing
that the name should be uk.rec.crafts.brewing but would like
to hear other ideas. There is already a uk.rec.* prefix and
the name would also indicate its parallel to r.c.b.

     I will attempt to post this request a few more times over
the next couple of weeks in order that I can get the attention
of as many people as possible - apologies for the bandwidth
used - I promise to restrict it to a minimum number of postings.

Thanks for your time,

Cheers,

     Brian Gowland
     Surrey
     England


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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:10:51 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Gravity?

In HBD 1649, djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) wrote:

> I have been given the basic recipe for a commercial
> beer that I love. But the folks gave me the gravity 
> in numbers I do not comprehend. I am assuming that
> they are in Plato (?).
> 
> They are:
>                 O.G.    11.5 - 12
>                 F.G.    2.5 - 3
> 
> Can anyone translate this for me?

        If it is degrees Plato then my tables show that
OG should be 1045-1050 and FG 1010 or slightly higher.
Hope that helps - sorry, don't know anything about the
Belgian 2-row that you mentioned.

Cheers,
        Brian


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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 7:16:37 EST
From: Evan Kraus <ejk at bselab.bls.com>
Subject: B-Brite


Questions 
Is B-Brite safe to use in Stainless Steel Kegs and so forth ?
And how about a cheap source for B-Brite ?
Is B-Brite sodium "percarbonate" ?
Is B-Brite the same as Clorox 2 ?
Is B-Brite as good a sanatizer as Idoflor or Bleach ?
Is Caustic Soda the same as Red Devil Lye ?

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Date: Sun, 05 Feb 1995 21:17:24 -0700 (MST)
From: CRVAVROSKY%FLC at VAXF.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Heard of this?

When I was back home I got to brew my first batch of beer.  I however, did not
do it at home, I did it at a brew house.  It was prtty cool.  They had all the
ingredents and equipment there to use, including recipes for the beer.
My question is:  how (if any of you have done both) do they compare?  I mean
can you get a more quality beer from a home brew or from a brew house?
Just wondering.
Chris   CRVavRosky at flc.colorado.edu

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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 08:00:12 EST
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: Andechs

 
 Robert Bloodworth writes:
 
   
> >Does anyone out there have a good recipe for Andechs, that dark brown nektar
> >from those taented monks at Kloster Andechs north of Munich?
 
             Just a correction.... Andechs is about 25 miles south and slightly 
   west of Munich..... And their bock beer is excellent.... last time I was 
   there they stopped serving it on weekends...only on Thursdays. I don't 
   remember the reason why.
 
   Anyways,   If anyone has any details of this beer I'm sure we'd all like 
   to know.
 
 ChuckM

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Date: 06 Feb 95 05:30:46 PST
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: non-alcoholic homebrew


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  non-alcoholic homebrew
Date: 1995-02-06 07:14
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i thought i'd try making 1gal non- or low-alcohol beer as follows:
1. mash 1# pale malt
2. boil with hops
3. cool down, pitch dry ale yeast and bottle immediately
4. let sit at room temp for some amount of time (for carbonation)
5. then place in the fridge to halt yeast activity

this seems to work for making soda at home, although the yeast and sugar are
different. anybody try this before? am i about to make time-bombs?


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Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 07:50:03 EST
From: "ian sutherland" <ian_sutherland at mail.amsinc.com>
Subject: Capping

        Just to add my two-penneth to the capping and breaking subject; my 
     brew partners and I agree that the double handled capper is a breeze 
     with the correct bottle and the free standing single handle capper 
     works great with all others. We may be snobbish but we never use 
     anything less than pint size and have found that the imperial pint 
     Bass bottles are perfect for the double handled capper. It has been an 
     enjoyable experiencing emptying all the bottles for our use. One 
     economic way of looking at it shows that we paid about $1 per pint for 
     Bass. How so? Well the 22oz empties our local brew shop stock sell for 
     about 95c + tax. Full Bass bottles our local liquor store sell at 
     $2.10 each, with a 10% discount per case (of 12). Hence ....
     
        Not had a breakage yet, so figure we must be doing something right. 
     Now, if only our beer was .....
     
     - Ian Sutherland
     
     P.S. I have heard that the Ship Inn in Milford, NJ is now online and 
     serving two cask conditioned beers. I'll be there on the 17th!


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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:33:00 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: water analysis software

"jim robinson" writes asking for a water formulation software program.
The Windows software "Brewers Calculator" has a section to factor in  water
additives per beer style and uses your local water makeup as a base.  I've
not used it nor do I endorse it - I just saw the demo version and noticed the
feature.  It's a $39 program available from Regent Software in Oakland, CA
 510-482-1609.  They'll send you the demo disk for $5 according to the ad in
Brewing Techniques magazine or you can find it online somewhere.  That's how
I got it but I can't remember where I found it!  Maybe on AOL, maybe at the
archive site???  Good luck!

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Date:          Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:18:03 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       Removing labels

In HBD1649 Mark Stevens notes that some label glue remains on the 
bottles even after soaking in a tub of chlorine solutions.  Try 
soaking them in a warm solution of soapy water and ammonia.  It does 
not take very much ammonia, maybe 0.5 oz in 2 or 3 gallons.  The warm 
soapy water helps penetrate the labels, while the ammonia dissolves 
the glue.  If this doesn't work, try the same solution and add a 
little elbow grease :-)

While I'm here, can someone please explain the negative comments 
concerning Mr. Jim Koch and his beer.  Yes, I'll admit his whiney 
voice on the radio is very annoying, but his beer is respectable, if 
not very good, in my opinion.  Are the negative feelings directed more 
at the commercialism than the beer?  Just curious.  Private or public 
email is fine.
Keith Royster
NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy
n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us     
919 North Main St.
Mooresville, NC 28115 
Voice: (704) 663-1699            
Fax:   (704) 663-6040



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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:22 EST
From: CSS2 at OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: culturing Chimay yeast

I am interested in making a Trappist/Abby style beer, and after reading the
yeast FAQ, I decided to try to culture the dregs of a bottle of Chimay Grand
Reserve that I received as a gift.  Made my usual starter, added the dregs,
put on a airlock and placed in a warm place overnight.  Next morning, no
visible activity...I shook the bottle and got a few bubbles through the
airlock. I then put the starter bottle back in the warm spot (as warm as my
house gets!) and waited another day...still nothing.
What's wrong here?  Is the yeast in this 9% alcohol beer too damaged to be
used? Does this yeast need some special treatment to bring it back to life
(ie., a blessing from a Trappist monk?  should I play my "Chant" CD? :-) or am
I out of luck?  On this similar thread, has anyone had good luck with the
Wyeast #1214 in making an Abby style beer?
Any input on this subject would be appreciated...at least the beer was good!
Thanks in advance
Curt
css2 at oas.psu.edu

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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:31:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Chiller questions

Chris writes:

<I currently use a "garden hose and tube" style wortchiller built
<from ideas in the chiller FAQ.  To save space and bulk I would like
<to switch to the "coil in a PVC tube" style.  Has anyone built
<this type of chiller?  How does it compare in efficiency with the
<other style.  Is it somewher between an immersion and the "garden
<hose" style?  Would this style use more cooling water?  I've seen
<several examples at store and in ads but don't know anyone who
<actually uses one.

I used one of the commercial examples of the "coil in a PVC tube"
chillers in my first all grain brewery.  Hated it.  It was too small
of ID tubing, the flow rate was very slow even for 6 gallons of wort.
It did use a lot of chilling water, too.  I'd stick to your homemade
chiller.
- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 10:38:55 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Plastic labels

Mark Stevens complains about a sticky label residue.

Try an organic solvent like toluene or acetone.  It will probably take
that stuff right off.  We've got some little "wipes" (cloth-like
square, impregnated with solvent, packed in a little foil packet),
which are intended for removing surgical adhesive from skin, and which
work great to take off stick-on label residue.  I can't remember what
they're called, though.

=S

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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:41:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Time to eat crow

I need to correct something I said about PVPP.  Al is completely
correct in stating that this fining agent removes/drops tannins/
polyphenols and does not affect proteins.  When talking about
chill haze, it is the result of polyphenol/protein reactions, so 
one can minimize either polyphenols or proteins, and the chill
haze is then minimized.  I was under the incorrect presumption that
polyphenols would somehow adhere to proteins, and I now understand 
that this is not correct.  Can you tell that Ive never used PVPP??!

Another note on real ales.  You can make real ales without using isinglass.
To do this, you need to select a very good flocculating yeast strain, and
allow the beer to settle, perferably using a keg with a short liquid side
tube.  Just Sat, I kegged my latest ESB and bitter.  The yeast strain 
was 1187, of which some discussion appeared in the HBD a few months back.
I cant say enough about this yeast!  It was grown from a slant, and 
used in a unitank in the local micro.  We harvested it from the uni, 
and I used it in my open fermenters.  It did not top crop very well, but
it dropped out very clear in one week of ferment.  I brewed a week ago
Friday, it was done on last tuesday, dry hopped and then kegged on Sat,
day 7-8 after pitching.  On Sunday, yes one day after kegging, I put the
last partial filled keg of ESB on my beer engine and it was damn clear,
and delicious.  Closest to Fullers ESB Ive ever made.    
- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1651, 02/07/95