FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Belgian Dubbel/SS repair (DCB2)
  Wort Chiller Leakage ("Robert W. Mech")
  Improving extraction efficiency in a Gott Cooler setup ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  FAQ - Grains - Re: Fullers ESB (GRMarkel)
  5L carbonation problem (Steve Bernholtz)
  Re:  Keg Sanitation (Allan Rubinoff)
  casking at home / cloudy beer problem / sealing corny kegs ("I see them through a crystal haze, And hear them bouncing round the room  08-Feb-1995 0924 -0500")
  Corny Keg Seals ("Richard Scotty")
  Sanitizing SS (Mark Kempisty - 957-8365)
  Pressure relief valves (Dave Pike)
  BJCP / spent grain (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
   (Bill)
  Feedback Control/RIMS/Temperature Pickup ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Feeback Request: UK-Oriented Homebrewing ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Real Ale Conditioning/Aeration in Secondary ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Lager carbonation (COX003)
  [Re: Real Ale Conditioning] (I.J.Normington)
  cask condition/6-row/cloudy brew/removing rubber/keg sealing/Laaglander (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Scorching vs Carmelizing ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  IBU judging (Bryan L. Gros)
  computer run RIMS / immersion chiller vote (Eamonn McKernan)
  Converting to All-Grain brewing (Franklin Fuller)
  Bounced mail--please send an address (" Bob Paolino, Research Analyst")
  culturing Chimay yeast (John Landreman)
  HWBTA National Competition Results? (Lynn Danielson)
  Indirectly heated mash tuns (Culver City Home Brewing Supply)
  Water Adjustments (Pulsifer)
  Re: control theory (DONBREW)
  Vanilla Beer, The last comment on the BJCP here. ("Lee Bussy")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 1:08:45 PST
From: DCB2%OPS%DCPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: Belgian Dubbel/SS repair

Paul had asked if anyone had a recipe for Belgian Dubbel.  
I used this recipe when I did my first mashing.  It came out dark and quite 
strong.  Since the bitterness is rather low it has a deceptive sweetness 
about it that masks it true strength and a lot of body. Know your limit<g>.
For 5 gallons (US) use:

9.5 lbs	pale malt
4 oz.  	Crystal malt (20 deg L)
4 oz.	Brown malt  
3/4 lbs Sugar

Bittering Hops:
1 oz.	Styrian (5% alpha)
 .3 oz.	Hallertauer

Aroma Hops:
 .3 oz   Saaz

Soft water is recommended with a mash temperature (single infusion)
of 150-152 Deg F

O.G.  1.065  F.G. 1.013 (Both estimated)

3 oz priming sugar or 2-2.5 volumes of CO2

I also used a trapist ale yeast starter.

Ronald Dwelle has pinholes in his SS Brewpot, I believe he said.  I suggest 
silver soldering.  Although SS can be welded, a brewpot is so thin that it 
would be hard to weld without burning through.  Silver solder is foodgrade 
and works on Stainless.  I used to use a propane torch (instead of acetelyne) 
because I felt I had better control when mending thin SS pieces.  The metal 
has to be clean and ample flux used.  Hope this helps someone out there.

David Boe
DCB2 at pge.com
	                                                                
   

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:04:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Wort Chiller Leakage

I keep seeing elaborate posts on how to keep homeade wort chillers from 
leaking.  For those of you who havent read the "Frugal Brewers Guide To 
Brewing Aids" (yes that was an intentional plug), there is a very 
INEXPENSIVE way to stop your wort chiller from leaking.  Simply go out to 
your local Automotive shop, and get some radiator hose.  This stuff is 
super cheap, and comes in like 100million different sizes. ID, OD, you 
name it.  You can just bring in your garden hose, and the copper tubing.  
The automotive guys usualy are more than helpful considering that most of 
them have never heard of a wort chiller, let alone brewing beer at home, 
and want to hear all about how they can make beer :-).

It usualy takes about 2 pieces or so to "Make the connection".  I just 
use an automotive clamp to tighten it all up.  I think I spent 
about $2.00 including the clamps.  Most of the automotive hoses cost ya 
about $.20 a foot.  Its not the most elaborate or pretty way to stop it 
from leaking, but it DOES work well, and cheap.  The last Post I saw 
talked about buying alot of fittings and connectors, I think this might 
be a tad more frugal than all those connectors and fittings.  

Also, let it be known that this is for IMMERSION style chillers.  Im not 
sure if you want your wort flowing partialy through radiator hose if you 
are using a CF Chiller.  Ive used the above method, and to this day, ive 
YET to have a leak from my chiller.  Ive used this chiller now for over 
15 batches.

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 7:18:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: Improving extraction efficiency in a Gott Cooler setup

  Subject: Improving extrraction efficiency with Gott Cooler Setup
  
 
  
  Hello everyone!  Once again I am dismayed at my poor extraction efficiency.
  I have brewed all-grain beers for about a year now using a Zapap lauter
  tun setup.  for Christmas I gott a 10 gallon Gott cooler and a Phil's
  Phalse Bottom.  After using it twice, I am rather disappointed at my low
  extraction efficiency.  Several weeks ago I whined to the collective wisdom
  of this esteemed digest, and most suggested that I sparge for a longer
  period of time (I was sparging for about 20 minutes).  Well, this weekend 
  Ibrewed again, and got a low extraction efficiency.  I'd like to hear from   
  brewers who use a Gott/Phalse bottom setup so I can ask questions regarding   
  procedure.  If you will allow me to pick your collective brains now,
  please indulge me while I briefly relate my protocol.
  
  AMBER ALE
  
  10 lbs american 2-row pale malt
  1 lb Vienna Malt
  1/2 lb Cara-pils malt
  1 lb light Crystal malt
  1/2 lb crystal malt (60L)
  1/2 cup chocolate malt
  1 ounce Cascade hops (boil)
  1/2 ounce Fuggles hops (flavor)
  1/2 ounce Cascade hops (finishing)
  1000 ml Yeast starter- Wyeast Chico Ale
  
  Mash grains in 4.3 gallons of water at 75 degC, to bring temp to 67 degC.
  Hols at 64-67degC for 1 hour and 20 minutes.  Sparge with 4 gallons of
  77 degC water. (Mash pH was between 5.0 and 5.5). Collect wort, boil for
  one hour etc etc.  Chill with wort chiller.  Pour into fermenter, allowing
  pelletized hops and cold break to settle for a few hours.  Rack wort
  to another clean fermenter.  Aerate, pitch yeast.
  	O.G. reading was 1.059.  Using 13 lbs of grain, I calculate
  an extraction efficiency of 59*5/13= 22.7 points/pound/gallon.  I know
  that I will lose a bit because I allowed the trub to settle and racked off
  it into another fermenter, but this is still low.  Do I assume that the
  specialty malts have the same extraction potential as the A-2?  Am I
  calculating this correctly?
  	My grain was purchased from a local supply store and milled with
  a Glatt mill.  I would hate to think that I am getting shortchanged on my     
  grain purchase (that might throw my numbers off).  What else can I attribute
  my low extract to?  I sParged very slowly, keeping the temp up over a period
  of about 45 minutes. Also, I measured the s.g.as I sparged, and it got
  down to 1.005 or so (so I am convinced that I got most of the sugar out). 
  	I hate to whine again, but I am striving to improve my brewing
  procedure.  Some of you might say "Chill out, just use more grain to
  get a higher O.G. in your system", but I am considering making some
  higher gravity ales that would require a ton of grain given my low 
  efficiency.
  	Anyway, I would like to hear from anybody with some ideas.  I'd
  really like to hear from those of you who use a Gott and a phalse bottom.
  Again, I am sorry to waste bandwidth with my personal problems, but I
  am here to brew better beer in a better way.  I'm always up for some
  self improvement, anyway.  TIA in advance.
  
  Rick Gontarek
  Owner/brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
  Baltimore, MD
  gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov




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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:01:36 -0500
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: FAQ - Grains - Re: Fullers ESB

A couple of months ago someone submitted a summary of grains and their uses.
I thought it was going to be entered as a FAQ - grains but after searching
the sanford site I could not locate it. If someone could tell me what
number(s) of HBD this summary appeared in, it would be a great help.
Another note to Jim Busch - I read your entry the other day and the name
"Fuller's ESB" caught my eye. This is a beer I've always enjoyed. Any chance
you'll share your recipe with us? I keep trying to duplicate it but keep
missing the mark. Thanks!!

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 07:05:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Bernholtz <sbernhol at uhl.uiowa.edu>
Subject: 5L carbonation problem

I've had a carbonation problem of another kind, When I went to grab a 
bottle of my winter ale last night I checked the 2 mini-kegs that I had. 
The bungs (the hard part, not the soft part) had popped out some time ago, 
unnoticed by me. The kegs are not dented or anything, but I've lost 10 L 
of beer. I damned near cried because it was aging properly and was 
starting to taste pretty good. Has anyone ever had this problem? I have 
kegged before so I know how to set the bung.

Steve, the bald chemist

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 09:25:07 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Re:  Keg Sanitation

In HBD #1652, roberson at hydroxide.chem.utah.edu (Mark Roberson) writes:

>    "Chlorine" bleach as used by brewers is not elemental Chlorine but
>sodium hypochlorite (NaClO).  The active agent, singlet Oxygen, is
>extremely reactive and quite tiny.  Thus I am hardly surprised that
>bleach corrodes stainless steel while iodine is safe.

Does this imply that sodium percarbonate (e.g., B-Brite) will also
corrode stainless steel?  My understanding is that the active agent in
sodium percarbonate is also oxygen.  I occasionally fill my SS brewpot
with a B-Brite solution to clean off the beerstone, and haven't noticed
any corrosion.  Is this stuff likely to damage the pot in the long run?


Thanks,

Allan Rubinoff  <rubinoff at bbn.com>

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 09:30:03 EST
From: "I see them through a crystal haze, And hear them bouncing round the room 08-Feb-1995 0924 -0500" <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: casking at home / cloudy beer problem / sealing corny kegs

>Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 10:52:47 EST
>From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
>Subject: casking / chlorine&SS / vinyl hose
>
>     Can I "cask condition" in the small soda-type kegs? I'd like to try 
>     kegging, but don't want to screw with the C02 tanks (I also think I 
>     like natural carbonation better). Is there a faq on cask-ing (as 
>     opposed to "kegging") somewhere? Refer me to a book? What's the reason 
>     to add CO2 in the first place? Why not let the yeasties do it?

sure, you can do this easily.  instead of a secondary fermentation in a
carboy, just secondary ferment in the corny keg.  i usually keg after 2-3
days of primary ferment.  if you wait longer, i'd suggest adding 1/3c of
corn sugar to the keg.  give it a good shake and let it sit.  Why do you
need CO2?  couple of reasons.  1. you'll have head-space in the keg.  use
the co2 to purge the oxegen out.  2.  eventually, when you serve the beer,
you'll run outta natural co2 pressure... addition co2 is use to dispense.
you can always gravity tap the keg, however, you will be introducing
oxegen, and therefore should probably finish it off within 5 days before
the beer spoils.
     
>Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 09:16:45 PST
>From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
>Subject: Cloudy Beer Problem
>
>For the past three or four months my beers have been coming out cloudy. Even
>several weeks of cold conditioning does not clear the beer. I have made
>some changes in my mashing proceedure, and I was wondering if the collective 
>wisdom could help shed light on my problem. The beer taste just fine and the
>"numbers" are exactly on target for my process. My changes are : 1. little or
>no protien rest (50C). 2. Dropped Lactic Acid water treatment. 3. 3 tbs of 
>gypsum (an increase of 1 tbs. ; 10 gal batches).

well, you asked for a suggestion not using finings, but i'm gonna give ya
one anyways :-).  i've had great success with irish moss.  rehydrate 24 hrs
before boiling.  dump it in during the boil.  you'll get very clear brews.

>Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:32:31 -0500
>From: lovelace at pop.nih.gov (Chris Lovelace)
>Subject: sealing a Corny keg
>
>I've just gotten a kegging setup and I'm trying to figure out how to get a
>good seal on my pin-lock keg.  The gasket on the bung is flexible and
>appears to be in good shape, but whenever I try to pressurize the keg, it
>leaks.  The keg was pressureized when I got it, so there must be a way...I
>just can't find it.

what i do is put a _very_slim_ coat of vaseline on the rubber seal.  very
thin!!  this really helps the seal form.

jc

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Date: 8 Feb 1995 08:06:21 U
From: "Richard Scotty" <richard_scotty at msmgate.mrg.uswest.com>
Subject: Corny Keg Seals

There have been a couple of posts lately lamenting the inability to get a good
seal on their Cornelius kegs.  There are a couple of easy steps to assure a
good seal on these kegs.

First, be sure to inspect the flange on the keg and the lip on the hatch to
make sure that they are in good shape and haven't been bent or dented.  They
need to be straight to seal.  Second and most importantly, purchase a new hatch
gasket - these can be had for a couple of bucks from any good brew shop that
sells kegging equipment.  I found that not only couldn't I rely on the original
gaskets due to deformation, I couldn't ever get the odor of the soda syrup out
of the damn things and didn't want to take the chance that it would produce
some nasty effect on my brew.  I have occasionally replaced the poppet and
fitting gaskets if they were particularly grungy or had been torn, but I have
used the existing gaskets here without detrimental effects.

To maintain the new gaskets in good condition, I leave the hatches loose on my
kegs when not in use.  This may allow the gasket to return to its original
shape and it may not, but I figure it can't hurt.  All of the original hatch
gaskets I've seen on these kegs when purchased appear to be flat spotted
because they've been compressed for extended periods (this is probably due in
part to the relatively high pressures they are subjected to when dispensing
soda syrup).

 With these simple steps, I've never had one of my kegs leak (serious
temptation of the brew gods here).

Gassily yours ;->

Rich Scotty

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:43:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Kempisty - 957-8365 <MKEMPISTY at gic.gi.com>
Subject: Sanitizing SS

Well, with all the observations and negatives of using chlorine on stainless 
steel a question comes up in my mind.  How do the BudMillOors guys do 
it?  They refill kegs, they have to sanitize them, so what do they use?

Mark Kempisty


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:29:51 -0800
From: Dave Pike <davep at cirrus.com>
Subject: Pressure relief valves

Does anyone know of, or use, automatic pressure release valves while 
fermenting in corny kegs?  It seems to me that if you could set a pressure
of about 15 to 18 psi, and then secondary ferment(or krausen(sp)), then 
you could avoid force carbonation or even priming(read over or under 
priming).

What about in thosee Grainger catalogs I keep reading about?

Thanks,

Dave


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 10:02:07 MST
From: Norman Pyle (npyle) <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: BJCP / spent grain

I for one, can't help but see this AHA/BJCP/HBWTA split as a power struggle.
If so, this can do homebrewing no good at all.  I'd like to hear some
discussion from current BJCP judges on this.  What's going on here, folks?

**

For Aaron Dionne, I use my spent grains for either compost, or mulch.  Many
of the city flower beds in this area are mulched with spent grains from the
various microbreweries, as well.  The birds like it and the soil likes it.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 13:05:27 -0500
From: Bill at cvumail.cvu.cssd.k12.vt.us
Subject:  

  SEVERAL OF YOU COMMENTED  UPON THE
PROPOSED REVISION OF MY BOOK
 "MAKING BEER."  THE BOOK IS 
OUT NOW, AND I WOULD 
APPRECIATE ANY COMMENTS,
 PRO OR CON. 



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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 10:15:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Feedback Control/RIMS/Temperature Pickup


Dion asks:

>I have not personally heard of any systems built with
> the temperature readout in the mash tun, but it may
>be possible.  Anybody out there do this?

I just finished building a quick-detachable thermometer for
the the mash tun and tested it with water only, so I'm just
exposing my design for you review and comment.

Coming directly off the outside of the mash tub is a short
section o1/2" copper line terminated with a brass/bronze
union.  The mating section of the union is soldered to a
detachable assembly centered around a 1/2" copper "T".

The "through" section of the "T" is oriented with its axis vertical--the 
portion pointing directly upward is terminated
with a female 1/2" NPT coupling, into which I have a 3"
diameter stainless steel, bi-metal autoclave thermometer.

The section of the "T" which points directly downward connects
up closely to a ball valve, which in turn is connected via
silicone tubing to our pump.  With this arrangement, wort from
the mash tub (pulled from the bottom of the tub, underneath the screen) 
flows over the stainless thermometer probe continuously
during recirculation.  By using Teflon on the thermometer
threads, it's a simple matter to maintain a seal and to also
easily remove the unit for inspection/cleaning.  [My current
design acceptance criteria includes the requirement to be able
to see or at least mechanically clean ALL surfaces that ever
come into contact with wort, hot or cold].

We have only one way to heat the mash: with the MondoBurner we
built (described previously in r.c.b and at The Brewery).
Because very few or no grains touch the bottom of the tub,
we've never seen any evidence of scorching, even having done
10 minute max-thrust burns.  I personally like this heating
system overall, although my partner has recommended adding a
smaller burner or a more controllable one for maintaining
temperatures.  The thermometer will indicate the temperature
of wort that just came from the heating "pan", i.e., the
surface of the keg just exposed to MondoBurner.  I argue that
because the period of the entire wort circulation cycle is
small (~8 gallons of mash liquor pumped at ~7GPM) my temp
reading *is* the temp, for all practical purposes.  What we
don't know (among many other things :->) is whether we can
actually pump that fast thru the grain bed or not.  TBD.

My feeling is by heating the 1.5 gal or so of clear mash under
the screen rather than heating a small amount in a percolator
analog, we do two things.  One, we prevent the chance of
toasting the mash when trying to do a step-up, and two, we have
better insight into the systems real response.  Caveat: we
haven't done a mash with this setup yet!  Pretty big caveat, eh?!

**Prepare for intended _humor_, please...**
And Dion--you must be an engineer, no?  Anyone else might have
simply marked the ON/OFF heater switch with a Dymo label saying
"ON" and "OFF".  But no, the obvious solution to you was a
proportional control unit, of course!!! (REAL Big Grin)

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not for breakfast anymore.

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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 10:43:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Feeback Request: UK-Oriented Homebrewing


Brian:

I've now seen two of your HBD posts and assume you haven't seen
any responses.  I'm replying publicly because I would like HBD
reader's thoughts here, too.

MY OPINION:

I do believe you when you say UK brewers have special problems
due to our differences in equipment and methods, and I also
understand it may be true you have trouble getting answers to
questions related to those unique aspects of your brewing. My
concern, though, is based on the following:

There are many of us brewers in the States who hold as our most
favorite beers those we feel (or know firsthand) are UK-unique.
There are also many here in the states who are devoted to
brewing closer to what we think (or perhaps know) to be good
"traditional" UK brewing.  And finally, much if not most of our
supplies come from the the UK, as did the Sex Pistols, I believe.

So....although I feel strongly you should have your own news
group if you want one (and shouldn't have to answer to anyone
to put one in place), I for one would hate to lose insight into whatever it 
is you're doing with beer over there.  I don't mind
subscribing to another news group and don't see what harm it
could do--but I'm a USENET neophyte.

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.


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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 12:23:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Real Ale Conditioning/Aeration in Secondary


RE: HBD #1652 Brian Gowland says

>At 48-72 hours I "drop" the beer...a traditional British method
>[wherein the brewer transfers] the fermenting wort into a clean fermenter
>WITH aeration...[leaving] the dirty yeast head and...trub behind

This is pretty cool.  This technique works well for Brian and I bet it will
work well when I try it too.  Question for you yeast-meisters is: how does
this bounce against what I thought were many recommendations to limit
aeration to at most the first 24 hours, and with the yeast cycle curve
I think I remember from Papazian showing the aerobic cycle lasting out
to about 48 hours?  I could be recalling the chart incorrectly, but I'm
sure I was told or read that aeration is bad after 24 hours.  Anyone?

Kirk R Fleming
flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:22:24 -0500 (EST)
From: COX003 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU
Subject: Lager carbonation

Well a friend and i are getting ready to bottle a 15 gallon batch of a pils
that was brewed way back in early november. Its primary ferment was at
50 degrees for about one week then down to 40 degrees for about three weeks
and finally since then hovering around thirty.  The gravity is 1.009 so it
is defintly done working, and as a side that gravity figure was taken about
two and half weeks ago. The question:  Will it carbonate after such a long
lagering time or will we have to use the "krausening" procedure (not really
krausening since we didn't save any of the orginal green beer.)(but we
could make up a 2 quart batch of the same recipe and pitch it into the beer
at high krausen)  Any ideas?
thanks aaron  Cox003 at wscub.ctstateu.edu
 err wrong adress sorry cox003wcsub.ctstateu.edu

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 13:20:06 GMT
From: I.J.Normington at bnr.co.uk
Subject: [Re: Real Ale Conditioning]


In HBD 1650, "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
wrote:

> Please excuse me for needing so much hand-holding--but let
> me verify I understand.  Are you saying that a 3 week
> secondary fermentation/conditioning in your pressure
> vessels is sufficient to both clarify and carbonate to
> your taste?  Is your 3 week minimum condxing period
> at ~room temperature?

In HBD 1652, Brain Gowland then gave us a very good description of his 
fermenting and conditioning process. I would just like to say that my
process is more or less the same of Brians (I too use the Graham
Wheeler brewing text). I would ferment a typical ale in the primary
for about 3 days, then transfer to a secondary where it sits under
airlock for about 4 or 5 days (sometimes longer if I'm too busy). I
then confirm that I have achieved my target gravity and, if so,
transfer to my Boots Pressure Barrel which then sits in a cool room
for 2-3 weeks to condition. I always get a bright, clear and fresh
tasting ale this way and have never had any problems. I have a CO2
adaptor connected through the barrel lid so that a blanket of C02 can
be put over the beer. I should point out that this C02 is not intended
to carbonate the beer, just allows me to keep the beer fresher for
longer and make it easier to dispense. 

	Cheers, Ian Normington


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Date: 8 Feb 95 13:45:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: cask condition/6-row/cloudy brew/removing rubber/keg sealing/Laaglander

Ron writes:
>     Can I "cask condition" in the small soda-type kegs? I'd like to try 
>     kegging, but don't want to screw with the C02 tanks (I also think I 
>     like natural carbonation better). Is there a faq on cask-ing (as 
>     opposed to "kegging") somewhere? Refer me to a book? What's the reason 
>     to add CO2 in the first place? Why not let the yeasties do it?

The CO2 produced by the priming sugar (even with American- or Belgian-style
carbonation rates) is not enough to dispense the entire 5 gallons.  You
can dispense via gravity (i.e. turn the Cornelius keg on its side and
dispense through the gas-in fitting, but unless you let air (or CO2) in
to displace the beer that has left the keg, your beer will soon be completely
flat (even as a Real Ale) and will actually stop flowing at some point.  If
you allow air in, then the beer will begin to oxidize quite quickly.  The
average keg of Real Ale is meant to be consumed within about a week -- three
to four days being even better.  Stronger ales can handle a bit longer.

I dispense my Real Ales with a beer engine and I let air in while I'm 
pumping, but afterwords, I purge-out the air that went in with CO2.  This
way, I can have a cask last well over three weeks with no noticable oxidation.

********
P.G. writes:
>I am confused by his comment on reduced extraction [from 6-row barley],
>however. Being
>that six-row barley is enzymatically more powerful than two-row, wouldn't it
>follow that it would yield a higher rate of extraction?

Six-row barley has a lower starch-to-weight ratio (i.e. a smaller percentage
of the total weight of a kernel is starch) than two-row barley.  The extra
enzymes will help you convert non-enzymatic grains, but can't give you more
yield by itself.

********
Ken writes:
>For the past three or four months my beers have been coming out cloudy. Even
>several weeks of cold conditioning does not clear the beer. I have made
>some changes in my mashing proceedure, and I was wondering if the collective 
>wisdom could help shed light on my problem. The beer taste just fine and the
>"numbers" are exactly on target for my process. My changes are : 1. little or
>no protien rest (50C). 2. Dropped Lactic Acid water treatment. 3. 3 tbs of 
>gypsum (an increase of 1 tbs. ; 10 gal batches).

<pH and the rest of Ken's process looks fine, so I did not include it>

There are two parts of the process which you did not mention, but can be
the cause of your cloudiness.  1. Could you have a wild yeast or bacterial
infection? (old hoses, infected yeast source, stratched fermenters...)
2. Could you be sparging too hot (i.e. over 170F) and liberating unconverted
starch from the grain bed?

******
Doug writes:
>Which finally brings me to my question, is there any way to remove rubber 
>without affecting the stainless steel? I would hate to lose such a nice keg.

Yes.  Elbow grease.  Take an old toothbrush and brush till the rubber all
wears off.  I suppose you could use fine steel wool, but I believe you would
have to use *stainless* steel wool (if you can find it).  I recall reading
somewhere that regular steel wool should not be used on stainless steel.

*******
Chris writes:
>good seal on my pin-lock keg.  The gasket on the bung is flexible and
>appears to be in good shape, but whenever I try to pressurize the keg, it
>leaks.

If the lid and opening are not bent, you probably need to buy a new gasket.
They do wear out and in fact, you should replace at least the big gasket
because it probably smells of soda and will taint your beer.

*****
Mel writes:
>Question - is there something about about Lagglander dry malts that is
>keeping me from hitting my s.g targets?  I.E. - 1 lb should equal ~10
>points in 5 gal, correct?

You are being way too optimistic with the contribution of any dried malt
extract.  I use 42 points/lb/gal for DME, which using your example, would
be 1 pound will give you about 8.4 points in 5 gallons.  Most syrups only
give 32-36 points/lb/gal.

>I was expecting it to get to ~1.018 or so and it
>pretty much stopped at 1.021.  Does the Lagglander have a lot of other,
>non-fermentables in it?

Bingo.

>The shops here lately seem to be carrying more Lagg than M&F dry malts so
>that is why I used it.  If I use it again, I am definitely going to make
>sure I keep a lb or two of honey at hand, but that really defeats one's
>attempts at 'all malt' brewing...  Should I just expect to use more Lagg.
>dry in my recipes?

Both M&F and Laaglander are fine extracts and both give about the same
contribution to OG, just M&F tends to finish quite a bit drier than Laaglander.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 13:24:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Scorching vs Carmelizing


RE: HBD #1652 where Jeremy says:

>One of the biggest problems I foresaw when designing my 1/2 BBL
>brewery was that of applying the heat without scorching, especially
>under the false bottom

This one of several references I've seen to scorching, most if not
all of them coming from RIMS and automatic feedback control thereof.
The contexts imply "scorching" here means locally raising the mash
temperature up too high for enzyme comfort (some references refer
to denaturing and consequent reduced extraction).

First, am I correct that this is how the term is being used, and that it is
NOT referring to actual carmelization in the mash tub?  Secondly, how
does this concern bounce against some commercial equipment
making use of high-pressure steam percolators (see The Practical
Brewer)?  I thought of designing a percolator before seeing reference
to them in TPB, but dismissed this as a sure way to toast the entire
mash, 100 ml at a time.

If in fact local overheating (but not necessarily carmelizing) is the 
concern,
I see no problem with a direct-fired system that pumps from the bottom
of the tub at a sufficient rate.  "Sufficient" should be indicated by a
thermometer measuring the mash temperature immediately as it comes
off the tub bottom, eh?

Offhand, the double-boiler concept seems impractical for keg-based
mashing, and would dampen system response to an even worse level
than it already is.  For stovetop, it seems like a cool idea, however.

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:41:30 -0800
From: bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: IBU judging

Al commented on my description of Mark Garetz method 
of comparing a beer with a known amount of IBUs to your
homebrew to estimate it's IBUs.

>Here's a test for you: compare Liberty Ale and bottled
>Guinness.  Which has more bitterness?  Now, which has
>more IBUs? Liberty is more bitter to the taste, but bottled
>Guinness has more IBUs.
>
 ...
>
>Bottom line: the method is virtually useless.
>
Al's point is good that it is difficult to judge the relative
bitterness of two beers when they differ in maltiness,
body, hop aroma etc.  But I think it is not impossible.
At our club meeting where we did this experiment, 
we used hopped Budweiser as the standard and Anchor
Steam (we weren't told what the test beer was ahead
of time) as the test.  These are two fairly different beers,
but since bitterness is perceived at the back of the
tongue, with a bit of concentration you can compare
"bitterness" pretty well.  Our club votes gave the test
beer 45IBUs, which is about what Eckhardt reports for
Anchor Steam.

My main point is that this method will give you a
reasonable etimate for your homebrew; the error should
be less than the differences between Rager's and Garetz'
formulas for estimating the IBUs.

Anyone else tried this?

                                                - Bryan
                                                  bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 16:05:58 EST
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: computer run RIMS / immersion chiller vote

Hi all,
        After the recent skirmish about the morality of a computer controlled
RIMS, I thought it was about time I added my own fraction of a dollar. Sorry
I'm a couple of days behind on my reading of the HBD.
        In essence, I want a computer controller because then I can pass my
electronics course. I am still contemplating reverse engineering my setup
after the professor assigns me a mark, and using more conventional temperature
controls. My only reason for this would be if I can't afford the computer.
Frankly, To be able to program the rims to maintain temperature, as well as
perform the necessary temperature increases between rests is very attractive.
The human brain is perfectly capable of doing these things, but I can think
of better ways to spend my time. Brewing is fun. I love it. But not all aspects
of the brewing art are challenging. Twiddling a nob or switch every 5 minutes
to keep temperature constant is boring. I don't want an automated brewery
either. That too would be boring. We all make are time saving compromises when
we brew. Some people are more purist than others. Hey, this is a hobby. Do
whatever turns your crank. But my perspective is this: I spent 8 hours from
startup to the end of cleanup making an all grain lager this weekend. I had
hoped to be able to at least read the Saturday paper while brewing. But all
the temperature controlling, sparging, boiling, sanitizing, etc kept me
hopping almost the entire time. I still haven't read the Wheels section (I save
the best for last). I know that 8 hours is alot of time. So I'm slow. I still
enjoyed myself, but in a years time, I'll get fed up I'm sure. Feel free to
disagree if you will-- that's what the HBD is here for!

BTW I'm still looking for Toronto suppliers of RIMS equipment. Especially the
heater. And all experiences with building/running the suckers would be
greatly appreciated!

Thanks again to everyone who's helped out so far!

********************
On a totally different note: I'm looking for your vote on immersion chillers:

To stir or not to stir?
stirring chills the wort quicker, but stiil takes 15 minutes, which is tiring.
I would assume the cold break is better (haven't done any experiments to prove
this though), but the risk of infection is greater too.

So anyone who uses an immersion chiller (and please, no arguments about the
relative merits of counterflow vs. immersion. That's been done to death
already):
1) do you/ did you ever stir the wort while chilling it?
2)if so, do/did you stir the beer for the entire time it takes/took to chill
it?
3)have you had any problems associated with you approach?
eg. infections.

I'll post a summary of responses.

	Cheers,
	Eamonn McKernan
	eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:01:17 -0800
From: dfuller at ix.netcom.com (Franklin Fuller)
Subject: Converting to All-Grain brewing

Well, I think I am finally ready to make the plunge...but does anyone 
out there have any reccomendations as to which books might be the most 
helpful for an All Grain beginner?


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Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 17:01:17 EST
From: " Bob Paolino, Research Analyst" <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Bounced mail--please send an address                             


I attempted to reply to edmondso at athena.msfc.nasa.gov about barleywines,
but the mail bounced after five days.

Send an address that will work and I'll send my reply again

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 15:59:44 MST
From: jlandrem at atmel.com (John Landreman)
Subject: culturing Chimay yeast

Greetings,

In HBD 1651 Curt asked about culturing Chimay yeast. I don't know about using
a bottle of Chimay Grand Reserve but I have cultured from a bottle of Chimay
Red. The bottling date should be stamped on the cork. My bottle was six months
old and still worked fine. The thing is that it took four days for activity
to start in a one quart starter. If you have not tossed it yet, be patient for
a couple more days. You may have a point when you question using the yeast from
a beer with that high of a alcohol content. The yeast may have mutated.

Good Luck,
John Landreman
Colorado Springs, Co

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:39:49 -0700 (MST)
From: lynnd at ihs.com (Lynn Danielson)
Subject: HWBTA National Competition Results?

Would someone please post or mail me the results of the
HWBTA Nationals competition?

Thanks in advance.

Lynn Danielson
lynnd at ihs.com

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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:26:45 -0800
From: cchbs at ix.netcom.com (Culver City Home Brewing Supply)
Subject: Indirectly heated mash tuns

With all the recent talk about indirect heat to your mash tun I thought 
I would explain how my 15 gallon 3 tier system works.

First of all my mash tun / lauter tun is the good old 54 qt camping 
cooler with a copper slot false bottom. The brew kettle is a 15 gal keg 
with a stainless union and ball valve. The hot liquer tank is mounted 8 
feet up and the whole system is hard piped in. The heart of the system 
is a brass impeller pump (rated up 250deg and 30 foot head space)  that 
can be hooked up to the boil kettle via nylon quick disconects. With 
ball valves we can direct sparge water either up to the hot liquer tank 
or thru a 35 foot piece of half inch copper coil that is run thru the 
mash tun / lauter tun. We recirculate the water from the boil kettle 
running thru the coil (at just about boiling) to raise the mash temps 
about 2deg per min. This lets us adjust the temp without any scorching.

Steve LaBrie
Culver City Home Brewing Supply


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:30:56 -0500
From: Pulsifer at aol.com
Subject: Water Adjustments

  I have been reading Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook of HomeBrewing".
 It is a very good book.  I decided that it was time to look at my water
conditions.  I have a pH of 8.0, Ca 100, Carbonate 100, Sulfate 25 and Mg 25.
 They add chlorine, chloramine and lime to the city water.

  Dave suggests that boiling should remove the chlorine and reduce the
carbonates since I have more than enough Ca.  The chloramine will be
untouched (from e-mail info).  I decided to experiment with plain water
before I tried this technique on my brew.  I boiled 2 cups of water for 25
minutes and let it cool.  The pH was still high.  It did appear that some
white stuff precipitated.  I added gypsum.  The pH was still high.  I boiled
for a couple of minutes.  The pH was still high.  I added some DME and boiled
again.  The pH dropped significantly, but I don't think it got anywhere below
6.0.  It was hard to tell since I was using a liquid indicator (6.0 to 7.6).
 

  I would appreciate any suggestions or comments.  I may go to distilled
water for a couple of batches and then back to tap water to see if I can
taste a difference.

Dean A. Pulsifer



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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:09:16 -0500
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: Re: control theory

from #1650
>You might argue that you could use some sort of dimmer switch on the
>heater, but I do not know of any reasonably priced dimmer switch that
Tried dimmer, don"t work at all. You do need the flicker effect of the
controller on the heater. Full power on at any time is death to enzymes in my
experience.
 I don't have a problem with overshoot , mainly I think, because I put the
sensors on the output side of the heater. Thusly the max temp into the mash
is the setpoint, I also have a thermometer on the input side just for
paranoia's sake.  The delta seems to stay about 2 degrees F.
 BTW , I am open to any easy sugestions for using my boat anchor 286 to
control things. I am already working on Bob McILvaine's monitoring system,
and hope to figure out how to use that to control the temp.
Donbrew at aol.com


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Date:          Thu, 9 Feb 1995 06:37:12 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Vanilla Beer, The last comment on the BJCP here.

Aaron Cox asks about the possibility of a vanilla beer:

At the risk of starting another Corriander fiasco, I would cautiously 
say that vanilla is a nice addition to many dark beers.  In smaller 
abounts (1/2 oz ber 5 gals) it seems to mellow nicely and enhance the 
overall character of a beer.  Note:  this will probably be percieved 
as a fault in a judging!  I'm just talking about drinking beer here.

Adding it just before bottling would be the best method as it's 
essence is extremely volotile and would not last through the 
fermentation.  It's base is alcohol so sanitation is not an issue.

For a definite flavor in a beer, start with 2 oz per 5 gallons AND 
LET IT MELLOW FOR AT LEAST A MONTH!  It will e overpowering at first 
but it does mellow out.

- ------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen a couple of posts from people regarding the AHA's  
pullout of the BJCP.  Specifically people who are not judges 
presumably, want to throw in their $0.02.  Here's what I think:

First of all, the thread should never have been started here.  After 
this I suggest we keep it to the JudgeNet where it belongs.

Second, It doesn't concern the average homebrewer, but it does 
suggest a general trend in the AHA towards a kinder, gentler 
dictatorship!

Third, someone made a comment on the necessity of competitions.  If 
you don't want to enter your beers in competition, fine.... I don't 
want to judge them.  Some enter competitions for the competition 
itself.  Far more enter it for constructive feedback on their beers.  
Yes, judges are human and do make mistakes.  A beer that is slammed 
in a competition may well be an excellent beer, but might not be 
appropriate for the style it was entered.  Pay attention to what the 
judges are telling you, not what score you received.

Judges spend alot of time preparing for the examination and keeping 
current after it.  They do this for free and for the sole reason to 
make you a better brewer if you care to listen.  If you think that 
some judges don't know what they are doing, well, if you can say 
everything you know about beer in a few paragraphs, sit down.  If you 
can intelligently write 8-15 pages of information with references 
from memory on a few specific questions in 3 hours, then step right 
up, have I got a test for you.

I'll step off my soapbox now.  If this letter wasn't addressed to 
you, then don't take any offence.  If you take offence anyway, be 
cordial and sent it to me e-mail.  Let's drop this discussion before 
it starts and get on to discussing beer.

- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1654, 02/10/95