FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Lagglander dry malts and low S.G. (Mel Martinez)
  Help on recovering from Bonehead Move ("Harrington, Stephen J")
  Scotch Ales, cereal, 60 C rest, and decoctions ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Brewing Techniques ("KEVIN A. KUTSKILL")
  Ftpmail/Newsgroups (Philip Gravel)
  Call for a 5 letters word dictionary (pautex)
  Little Tapper Keg (Wade=Landsburg)
  stirring implements (Jim Larsen)
  Re: dropping beer (Tel +44 784 443167)
  CANOE PADDLES (Charles Wettergreen)
  Need help on food-grade caulk (Michael Magnuson)
  (Fwd) Souring Guinnesss ("Keith Royster")
  Heater element controls (Tom Clifton)
  Robert Bloodworth asks about homebrew system (uswlsrap)
  Re: dropping beer (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Re: In defense of the AHA (bickham)
  Stirring Utensils, Gott Cooler Manifold (Eric Peters (919) 405-3675)
  1995 AHA style guidelines (MHANSEN)
  Lager (Jeff Stampes)
  IMMERSION, STIR OR NOT ("WILLIAM F BIGGIN")
  Wort paddles/Guiness sour-mash ("William F. Cook")
  IBU measurements (Fred Waltman)
  First Annual Maple Brew-Off (Andrew Patrick)
  RIMS Temperature Control ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Making invert sugar? (kevin)
  Chiller results / Canadian suppliers? / Cloying beer (Eamonn McKernan)



******************************************************************
* NEW POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:53:28 -0500
From: mem at rowland.pha.jhu.edu (Mel Martinez)
Subject: Re: Lagglander dry malts and low S.G.

In article <rubinoff-060295165557 at spmac124.bbn.com>, rubinoff at bbn.com
(Allan Rubinoff) wrote:

] In article <mem-0502951827560001 at durin.pha.jhu.edu>, mem at pha.jhu.edu (Mel
] Martinez) wrote:
] 
] 
] > Question - is there something about about Lagglander dry malts that is
] > keeping me from hitting my s.g targets?  I.E. - 1 lb should equal ~10
] > points in 5 gal, correct?  I'm falling way short.  I have double checked
] > my hydrometer with tap water and it seems dead on correct.
] > 

[deletia]

] 
] As for your low original gravities, I think you're expecting too many
] gravity points from your extract. 10 points in 5 gallons is a total of 50
] points, which is way too high for a pound of DME.  Typical values are 42
] pts/lb for DME, 35 pts/lb for syrup.  Actually, I think even these values
] are a bit high, because you lose some solids in the hot and cold break.  I
] usually figure on 40 points for DME, 33 points for syrup, and generally
] find the contribution from steeping grains pretty much negligible.  If you
] apply these numbers, you'll see they pretty closely match your results.
] 

Thanks Al, and also the several others who posted or sent me this
correction (in one form or another).  The 42 and 35 (pts/lb/gal) numbers
work pretty well so I'll be using those next time.  At anyrate, thanks to
the 1 lb of honey I added, the beer ended up nearly right on target and
has fermented down really fast.  It was down to 1.017  (OG=1.048) when I
racked it after one week in the primary.  Tasted practically done and
pretty damn good, too (similar to Bass).  I may be ready to bottle next
weekend at that rate.  For those out there using Lagglander DME and
fighting with high final gravities, try sub'ing a little honey for part of
the Lagg to get a dryer finish.

Also, just so people don't think I'm a total loon and am operating from a
vacuum the rule of thumb I was operating from in formulating the recipe
was from Mark Steven's and Karl Lutzen's book 'Homebrew Favorites', 1st
printing, 1994.  On page 6, bottom paragraph :

"If you are going to brew an extract based brew, you  will typically need
about 1 pound of extract for every 10 points of gravity.  For example..." 
etc.

Now, I note in retrospect that the vast majority of actual recipes in this
book do not use this formulation, but unfortunately, I happened to be
using as the rough model for mine one of the few that seems to. 
Specifically, the Bantry Bay Irish Red Ale on p. 35, which calls for a
total of 6 lbs DME + grains in a 6.5 gal recipe to get an OG of 1.048.

Unless there is a typo somewhere, I don't believe this recipe can possibly
achieve the target gravity.

Hopefully, Mark is reading this and will excercise the ol' editorial red
marker before the book goes to a second printing?  :-)

Cheers,
- -- 
Mel Martinez
The Johns Hopkins University
Dept. of Physics
mem at pha.jhu.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: 13 Feb 1995 09:04:24 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com>
Subject: Help on recovering from Bonehead Move

I stated before that I had been away from brewing for 6 months, and my
rustiness has surfaced early on...

I was planning on brewing an SNPA (from Tony Babinec's recipe in Cat's Meow),
so I popped a fresh American Wyeast, let it puff up and then proceeded to make
my starter.  I sanitized everything, poured the wort into my starter bottle
and poured the contents of the package into the bottle also.  Then to my utter
horror I realized that I had not cooled the wort down !!!! (the kids were
crying, it was late, there was a hurricane, locust, honey it's not my
fault).............

Now that you have stopped laughing at me, is there any hope of recovering from
this bonehead move?  Or have I sent my entire army of yeasties to a scorching
death?

As a fall back, I took my last bottle of actual SNPA, poured it into a glass,
swirled the remnants and poured them into the COOLED starter in hopes of a
recovery.

Oh well, I guess this is why they have dry yeast.

Guilty as charged,

Stephen Harrington
Manhattan Beach, CA

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:04:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Scotch Ales, cereal, 60 C rest, and decoctions

Hey HBDers,

<prepare for exceedingly long post from beginning all-grainer>

I am pleased to announce the successful results of my first two all-grain 
batches, a head-to-head comparison (almost) of Wyeast Irish 1084 and Wyeast 
Scottish 1728.  I say "almost" because the comparison was done on two different 
batches of identical grain bill, not a split batch, with some slight 
variations here and there.  As a scientist, I grow weary of exacting 
experimental conditions and so I like to feel a little less restrained and a 
little more creative in my brewing hobby---why brew if it's not fun?!  The 
two brews were intended to be scottish ales and fell somewhere between the 
export class and the strong scotch ale. Here's the pertinent info on each:

Category        Batch #1                    	Batch #2
- --------------	------------------------------	------------------------
Name		Dose of Reality Scotch Ale	Superstition Scotch Ale
Grain Bill	8.00 lbs british pale		same
		1.00 lbs 60 L crystal
		0.50 lbs toasted malt
		0.50 lbs cara-pils malt
		0.125 lbs roasted barley

Hop Schedule	0.5 oz. BC Kent Golding 60 min	0.5 oz BC Kent Golding 60 min
		0.5 oz. BCKG 40 min	        0.33 oz. Willamette 40 min
		0.25 oz. BCKG 20 min		0.66 oz. Willamette 20 min
						0.25 oz. BCKG 20 min
Mash Schedule
 Dough-in	20 min  at  20 C    		20 min  at  20 C
 Acid-rest	20 min  at  40 C (infusion)        20 min  at  40 C (infusion)
 Protein-rest	20 min  at  52 C (infusion)	15 min  at  52 C (infusion)
 Beta-rest?	20 min  at  60 C (direct heat)	20 min  at  60 C (direct heat)
 Alpha-rest	45 min  at  70 C (direct heat)	45 min  at  70 C (direct heat)
 Mash-out	10 min  at  76 C (direct heat)	10 min  at  76 C (direct heat)
 Sparge		5 gal  at  80 C 			5 gal  at  80 C
		75 min				45-60 min
		collected 6.5 gal		collected 6.5 gal
 Boil		1 hour				1 hour
 Chill		down to 19 C			down to 19 C
 Aeration	brief pump (foaming)		brief pump (foaming)
 Yeast		Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale		Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
		In-pack starter only		Stepped starter: 1 qt
								 1 gal
						Pitched about 1 pt yeast slurry
 Ferm temp      18 C (65 F)  			15 C (60 F)
 OG		1.060				1.056
 FG		1.022				1.020
 Kegging        0.75 cups DME primer		0.66 cups DME primer

After the discussion here regarding protein rests and well-modified malts, 
that rest will probably be eliminated if I try to repeat these recipes.  
Batch #1 (Irish) was an overall superior brew, with better carbonation 
(possibly too much), head retention, body, and maltiness---it also had a very 
nice perfumey quality that seemed to be a product of the yeast (as no flavor 
or aroma hops were used).  Batch #2 had a lower extraction efficiency that I 
attribute to my being impatient the day of brewing. ;)  Both brews ended with 
fairly high FGs despite a huge 1-gallon starter for batch #2 and much 
aeration with an aquarium pump system.  Explanations??

The flavor profile of the Wyeast Scottish was more than a little 
disappointing given the high praise it was given in private e-mail.  It 
exhibited very little of the characteristic "peaty" qualities and absolutely 
no smokey flavor.  The batch was also less carbonated and more bland, with 
less body and head retention but greater clarity and the same nice malty 
finish.  Color between the two was identical.

I would encourage any beginning all-grainer to just do it---it's a little 
challenging but really satisfying.  The recipe for batch #1 above will make a 
fine brew, but I would eliminate the protein rest and pump up the grain bill 
to make it a strong scotch ale.  ;)  Question on specifics----email me.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPENT GRAINS AS CEREAL:

I forget who suggested this.
Well...I was feeling adventurous and tried it.  The verdict?---a little 
chewy, tasted like something between beer and cattle feed, sticks in the 
teeth something fierce, and they weren't kidding when they said high fiber.  
I threw the rest in the compost pile, where all future spent grains are 
headed. ;)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
60 C (140 F) REST:

Can someone please enlighten me as to what exactly is going on in the mash 
during this rest?  Is this considered the beta-amylase rest?  Why 140?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANOTHER FIRST----A SINGLE DECOCTION:
I brewed my very first lager this past weekend using a simplified single 
decoction mash similar to the one in the decoction-faq.  What great fun!!
The grain bill for the Munich Dunkel was:

   5.0 lbs German Durst 2-row pilsner
   2.5 lbs German Durst 2-row munich
   1.0 lbs American 2-row munich 10L
   1.0 lbs German Durst 50 L crystal
   0.5 lbs cara-pils

I used a 40/60/68 mash, with a 25% decoction pulled during the 60 C rest.  
The decoction was heated to 68 C, held 15 minutes, heated to 100 C, and 
boiled 10 minutes before being infused back into the main mash.  The mash 
came to rest at 65 C and was direct heated to 68 C.  I expected a fairly 
quick conversion, but it kept failing the iodine conversion test.  Conversion 
was finally verified after 1.5 hours at 68 C.  My questions:  Did the 
decoction destroy so many enzymes that conversion was slowed down 
considerably in the main mash?  Or does the German 2-row grain just take a 
bit longer to convert? Is this typical?  Or....does some other explanation 
exist?  

Sorry for the HUUUUUUUUGE posting, but it's all brew-related.  Flame me if 
you must.  Thanks for any help.  private/public---however you want it.  
Lurking cloak re-activated and asbestos shields up.  Brew on!

Bones

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	Timothy P. Laatsch               
	Graduate Student in Microbial Ecology/Bioremediation		    
	Michigan State University / W.K. Kellogg Biological Station
	Kalamazoo, MI	
	laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

	"...and your face looked like somethin' death brought with him
         in his suitcase..."----WZ
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Return to table of contents


Date: 13 Feb 95 23:21:48 EST
From: "KEVIN A. KUTSKILL" <75233.500 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brewing Techniques

Ok, all of you have gotten me interested in this
Brewing Techniques magazine--how can I find out
about subscription information?
E-mail is fine. TIA.

Kevin A. Kutskill ("Dr. Rottguts")
Clinton Township, MI
75233.500 at compuserve.com

"A beer a day keeps the doctor happy"


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:27:25 -0600 (CST)
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Ftpmail/Newsgroups


===> Ronald Moucka asks about ftpmail...

>Secondly, can someone help me with ftpmail?  I've tried
>every syntax I can think of, but can't seem to get it to
>work.

Since the homebrew archives were moved from sierra.stanford.edu
to ftp.stanford.edu, the listserver (which ftpmail uses) hasn't
been available.  As nearly as I can tell, the listserver is not
running on ftp.stanford.edu.

===> Scott Howe asks about brewing newsgroups...

>    I need some advice on Brewing/Beer Newsgroups.  I am getting Net access 
>through work, and they tell me they will only give me access to two news-
>groups.  I am going to get on the Austrailian Rules Football list, so that
>leaves ONE for Beer.  Our news server privides a few that deal with beer.
>Of the following, I need to pick ONE.  Which ONE should it be?  
>
>   alt.beer
>   alt.beer.like-molson-eh
>   rec.food.drink.beer
>   muc.lists.beer.homebrew
>   rec.crafts.brewing
>   uiuc.org.homebrewers

rec.crafts.brewing is definitely the one to go with if you're interested
in homebrewing.  Perhaps rec.food.drink.beer if you only want to talk
about beers.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 15:56:36 +0100 (WET)
From: pautex <PAUTEX at lpmi.u-nancy.fr>
Subject: Call for a 5 letters word dictionary

Hello,

This message is from Pautex JF I am a  Mac Apple developper, 
please forward it to any person who can reply.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just put a new game in mirror INFO-MAC
ref ---> .../mac/info-mac/Game/Abaccus-10.hqx
This game play with french words (5 letters), alls words are into a dictionary
file, my purpose is to convert it with all english 5 letters words in order to 
do a multi langages game.

My problem is to do an english dictionnary file with all 5 letters words
all words must be in alphabetical order (easy) with a difficilty level
attach for exp :
 - table 1         " lecel 1 for word "table" easy word "
 - desks 3         " level 3 ? "
 - Rabat 6         " level 6 it's a town "  etc...

All words comes with 6 levels of difficulties, but a good knoledge of
english is necessary, in my french dictionnary up to 5400 words are
included, I suppose more than 5000 words can be found in english.
Normaly kinds can play with level 1 and 2, level 3,4 are more diffucult
and level 6 seem to be impossible, this last one is only for word check.
User word reply is ckeck and must be in any dictionary file.
Usualy words are from the "scrabble" game.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can somebody mail me a reply ? This game is now a shareWare (100FF, $20)
livence can be obtain for anybody who can help me.
I know the important job, all reply are welcome.

Thanks for all, sorry for my english.

PAUTEX Jean-Francois     mail : pautex at lpmi.u-nancy.fr 
14, Av MILTON
54000
FRANCE
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:31:49 AST
From: Wade=Landsburg%SC_INV%Moncton at MNCGFC.GFC.DFO.CA
Subject: Little Tapper Keg

I just purchased a small aluminum keg at a flea market and am trying
to figure out how it works.  Its made by the Reynolds Aluminum Company
in the state of New York.  It was obviously used for commercial beer
and would be exchanged for a new keg once empty.  I've been using the
Corni Keg for my draft system but this would be perfect for transport
to other places.  The keg appears to be turned out of aluminum and
holds 2 1/4 gallons U.S..  Theres a plastic tap on the front for dispensing
beer.

On the back is a plastic plate which says "Contents under pressure, do no
tamper".  After tampering with it I discovered the keg contains what
appears to be a re-fillable, self contained CO2 unit.  I think it fills
by use of an adapter similiar for filling basketballs.  I anyone
familiar with these kegs?  How do they put the beer in it at the factory?
Any information on these kegs would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Wade

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 06:33:18 -0600 (CST)
From: jal at gonix.gonix.com (Jim Larsen)
Subject: stirring implements


Mark Godar asks about replacing his 24" nylon spoon with a wooden 
stirring paddle to accommodate 10-gallon batches.

I recommend a stainless steel paddle from a restaurant supply house. You 
can get them in 3- and 4-foot lengths. I do not recall the price (mine 
was actually a gift), but you need not worry about coatings or 
treatments of the wood. If you can't come up with the the scratch for an 
SS paddle, get a 21" spoon, also available from a restaurant supply 
house. This should run less than $10.

Jim



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:44:22 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: dropping beer

In HBD 1657, GRAFTONG at vms1.bham.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> Can anyone remember if Graham Wheeler specified to re-aerate
> after dropping the beer, and if he did, can anyone tell me why
> it is beneficial then but not later on in the brewing process?

        Yep - he most certainly did say to re-aerate - scared the
life out of me too until I tried it.
        The purpose of dropping is to leave behind the dirty yeast
head and as much trub and dead yeasties as possible. The idea is
to aerate and rouse the remaining yeast so that it will re-establish
a strong working colony in order to finish fermentation properley
and in order to recreate a strong yeast head. This, to an extent,
depends on the yeast strain but the few British strains that I've
used seem to take to it well - beware anybody using Wyeast #1007
German Ale yeast - I suspect that this doesn't like the dropping
system and seems to slow down dramatically afterwards. Another
thing that is to be taken into consideration is whether or not
you practice open fermentation. I cover my fermenting bin with its
lid (loosely laid on top) after pitching and wait until a strong
cover of yeast has formed at which point I remove the lid completely.
I drop, normally, at 48 hours after pitching and again loosely
cover the bin until the yeast head has reformed when I, again,
remove the lid. The bin remains open for another day or two when
the yeast covering will normally subside and I will once again
loosely cover the bin with its lid until the beer gets near to,
or reaches, FG (if it hasn't already done this). At this point
I rack (without aeration) into a clean fermenting bin for 24 hours
prior to racking, again without aeration, to a plastic pressure barrel.
        So Gillian, give it a try. I'll put in a disclaimer that it
works for me and GW and, I assume, other readers of his book - take
reasonable care and it should work for you. It also works for Morland's
of Abingdon and Marston's of Burton and used to be practiced by many
other commercial breweries - the main reason for them stopping, being
that it is expensive on space and equipment.
        To qualify my experiences - I've been brewing all-grain brews
and using these methods for 8 months now. In that time I've used 100Kg
of Pale malt (just finished my 4th 25KG sack) which suggests that I've
done 25-30 batches (can't remember exactly). In that time I've only
had two problem brews - the first was when using a live yeast from a
local independent brewery which seemed to go into some form of shock
even before I got to dropping the beer. The second was with the Wyeast
#1007 strain that I mentioned above - after dropping, this seemed to
slow to a halt and the resulting brew developed a bad taste. I did
do a succesful batch with the #1007 yeast but again, this seemed
unhappy about the dropping process - I stopped using this yeast after
that.

Cheers,
        Brian


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 07:59 CST
From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Charles Wettergreen)
Subject: CANOE PADDLES            

To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

In HBD #1657 Mark Godar (mgodar at autodesk.com) wondered about using a small
canoe paddle to stir his mash for a 10-gallon batch:

HH> I have never seen stirring utensils discussed on the HBD. I have been

My "kitchen gadget" store in the Piano Factory mall in St. Charles, IL has 
giant, unfinished, oak, wooden spoons for about $6. They have a 2 1/2 to 3
foot long broomstick-sized handles and the spoon bowl is about 6" X 4".
I'm sure they were intended to be decorative, but they just fit the bill.

This mall also has a Corning outlet store which sells inexpensive carboys and 
yards of ale.

Chuck

/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
   Chuck Wettergreen    One beer at a sitting is OK. Two beers, maybe.
   Chuckmw at mcs.com      But anything beyond that number goes over the
   Geneva, Illinois     line of recreational drinking.  Ann Landers
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/**/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/**/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

 * RM 1.3 00946 * 
               

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 09:36:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Magnuson <magnusom at gort.canisius.edu>
Subject: Need help on food-grade caulk


     My lauter-tun is a 5 gallon bucket with the bottom cut out and
replace with an old sprout grower.  The extra length of this grower
nearly eliminates the false bottom when placed inside another 5 gallon
bucket.  The problem is that there are gaps between the bucket and the
grower which gives major filtering problems during sparging.  Does anyone
know of a high-temperature, food-grade caulk that could be used to
fill these gaps?  Your help is much appreciated.

				Mike Magnuson


Return to table of contents


Date:          Tue, 14 Feb 1995 09:57:58 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       (Fwd) Souring Guinnesss

Martin Lodahl recently sent me private email concerning my post about 
the sour taste in Guinness.  I thought it might be of general 
interest, especially to those trying to reproduce it.

>Keith,
>In HOMEBREW Digest #1655, you asked:
>> In HBD1653 rnantel at ibm.net asks for improvements to a Guinness Stout 
>> recipie to better achieve the authentic "sour" taste.
>>
>> I vaguely remember reading somewhere that this sour taste is 
>> achieved, not in the brewing process, but by actually blending the 
>> stout beer with a little bit of "bad" / contaminated beer.  Other 
>> than this, I don't remember any details.  Does this sound familiar to 
> >anyone else? Or am I completely confused?  I'll try to find where I 
> >read it this weekend.

>For what it's worth, just yesterday I was talking with Grant Johnston,
>brewer at Marin Brewing in California, who's just returned from two
>weeks in Ireland.  While there he got a "backstage" private tour of
>the principal Guinness brewery, and what they told (and showed) him
>was that they have a series of huge oaken tuns dating back to the days
>before Arthur Guinness bought the brewery, which they still use as
>fermentors for a fraction of the beer.  The tuns have an endemic
>population of Brettanomyces, lactic acid bacteria and Lord knows what
>else, and beer fermented in it sours emphatically.  They pasteurize
>this and blend small quantities of it with beer fermented in more
>modern vessels.  I too have read something like this, but never before
>had I heard about the wooden tuns.

>I happened to be talking with him as one of his beers had just been
>judged best of show at the second annual Toronado Barley Wine Festival.
>Judging 29 barleywines at 10AM, the morning after a massive party at
>Anchor Brewing, is a rare experience, I'll say.  Fortunately for the
>judges, they had enough panels so that my share was 8 of them, and I
>had an excellent judging partner in "Wicked" Pete Slosberg.  It wasn't
>so many years ago that you could count the total of commercial
>barleywines on one hand, so we felt extraordinarily lucky to have
>so many, and such good ones.

>	- Martin

>= Martin Lodahl     Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning      Pacific*Bell =
>= malodah at pacbell.com      Sacramento, CA USA	            916.972.4821 =
>= Contributing Editor, Styles Column:        Brewing Techniques Magazine =
>=    If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids,   =
>=  Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  (Unk.)   =

+------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Keith Royster                |  NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy |
| n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us |  919 North Main St.     |
+------------------------------+  Mooresville, NC 28115  |
| "I think I ran over my       |  Voice: (704) 663-1699  |
|  Dogma with my Karma."       |  Fax:   (704) 663-6040  |
+------------------------------+-------------------------+

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 10:16 EST
From: Tom Clifton <0002419419 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Heater element controls

Jeff Berton / MBX: jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov
Subject: RIMS Temperature Control [HBD #1656]

>Also, rather than using a dimmer switch, has anyone tried to control their
>electric heaters using one of those variable time-delay solid state relays?
>They just turn the current on and off at intervals set by a knob, and, from the
>heater's point of view, would have much the same effect as a dimmer switch. 
>And since dimmer switch prices rise dramatically with capacity, I would think
>such a relay would be better suited for controlling heaters greater than 1000W.

This would be easy to do by using an electric range "continuous" control.  They
do just exactly that - turn power on and off with a small internal bimetal strip
as the controlling element.  These controls are also used in ceramic kilns... 
The last time I bought any for my wife's kiln they were $30 each - (15 years
ago) though they may have been much less expensive had I bought them somewhere
other than the ceramics shop.  I would assume that this is what the BruHeat uses
for it's control also.

My gut feeling is that the dimmer you are using probably does a better job as it
effectively reduces the power by chopping the power 60 times a second rather
than turning the element on and off a couple times a minute.  This would result
in the element not being brought to full heat for the time the control is on
potentially being more "gentle" to your wort.




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:19:50 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Robert Bloodworth asks about homebrew system                     


I'd have sent this by private email, but the entire address didn't appear

Sounds like it might be (or might resemble) a Stoelting system, from
Sheboygan, Wisconsin.  Yes, they look very nice, and they're very expensive.

502 Hwy 67 / Kiel, Wisconsin 53042

No financial interest, blah, blah (hey, I can't afford one)

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 10:49:29 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: dropping beer

Somebody will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is
that late aeration (e.g., during "dropping") will increase both
diacetyl and esters in the final beer.  This is probably appropriate
for an English Ale.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:12:49 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: In defense of the AHA

Jeff Hewit mentioned that you don't know what led to the rift between
the AHA and the Beer Judges.  The AHA withdrew from the BJCP because the
steering committee that consists of appointed officials representing
both the AHA and the HWBTA (Home Wine and Beer Trade Association) approved
the addition of 3 elected representatives from the homebrewing community.
This didn't suit the AHA's desire to have full control over the BJCP
without any input from the members, which you have to admit is very unusual 
for that type of organization.  The Beer Judges had no plans to overthrow 
the AHA, but only wanted some input and information about what happens in
their organization.

I agree that Zymurgy is a decent publication, especially with the
improvements that have taken place in the past year.  The advertising is
a little bothersome, but it has some usefulness when you're searching
for ingredients and I'd rather have it there than see the price of
the magazine increase.  The AHA has significantly helped the craft of 
homebrewing, but remember that they are motivated by profits and will do 
anything they feel is necessary to protect their position.

Jeff also mentions that he brews beer to satisfy your tastes, not to win 
awards.  That should be everyone's goal, but being a beer judge has 
significantly helped my knowledge of brewing and beer styles.  I have been 
able to help dozens of homebrewers in local clubs trace problems in their 
beers to specific areas of their brewing procedure, and it's nice to see the
quality of their beers improve when the problem is addressed. So be
careful not to underestimate the benefits of having trained beer judges in 
the homebrew community, especially when we're not motivated by profits.

Scott Bickham
- -- 
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 11:17:44 EST
From: epeters at edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com (Eric Peters (919) 405-3675)
Subject: Stirring Utensils, Gott Cooler Manifold



Mark Godar Says:

>I have never seen stirring utensils discussed on the HBD. I have been
>contemplating using a small canoe paddle to stir the mash.  There is
no
>way I could break it like that wimpy spoon, but am not sure how it
>would handle the heat.

My brother and I stir our mash with a 9-iron.  No foolin'.
The angle of the club head is such that, with a slight twist
of the wrist, you get excellent grist motion from bottom to
top.  The shaft is strong and has a very nice grip for wet or
cold hands.

We brew 10 gallon batches and mash in a Gott cooler like yours.
I designed a slotted 1/2" rigid copper manifold that uses four
parallel pipes joined with tees and elbows to form a square.
		    L---------L
		    |         |
		    T---------T
		    |         T-> Output through ball valve.
		    T---------T
		    |         |
		    L---------L
I avoided using solder by cutting the pipes just right so that
the manifold corners press firmly against the cooler walls.  The
manifold falls apart when removed from the cooler for cleaning or
storage.  When in use, the manifold can not come apart and I
never hesitate to bang the 9-iron against it when I stir.  We
have used this set-up for 14 batches and have never had a mash/
sparge problem, even with grists of ~20% rolled oats and all 2-row
grain (pipe is slotted halfway through every .3".)

We broke two of those nylon spoons before switching to the golf
club.  I can't imagine a better stirrer than a 9-iron.  Give it
a try.  I hope this info helps.

Fore!

Eric Peters


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:33:48 -0600
From: MHANSEN at ctdmc.pmeh.uiowa.edu
Subject:  1995 AHA style guidelines

Hello all,

Does anybody have an _online_ copy of the 1995 AHA style guidelines
they could send me via E-mail or point me to a source where I could ftp
it? I checked the HBD and JudgeNet archives but did not see anything. If I
overlooked them in the archives, please let me know.

Thanks,
Mike  (michael-d-hansen at uiowa.edu) 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:19:18 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Lager

I am making my first shot at formulating my own all grain recipes (until
now, I have either used other people's, or have slightly modified someone
else's).  I thought I'd run it by the collective wisdom of the hbd to collect
feedback prior to brewing.

What I'm shooting for is a Honey Ginger Lager.  I want it to end up a little
on the high gravity side, full-bodied, good head retention, and not too
hoppy.  

Grain Bill:
8 Lbs German Pils 2-Row Malt
 .5 lb Wheat Malt
 .5 lb Dextrine
 .5 lb Crystal - 10L

I am adding the wheat malt, dextrine and crystal for body and head retention.
I was planning a two temp mash (152F & 158F) unless someone can tell me why a
protein rest would be needed.
I will add two pounds light clover honey to the boil.
I will also boil in 4 oz. grated ginger root.  I know it sounds like a lot,
but I have used it in an extract beer with excellent results.  It's sort of
toxic for the first 4 months, but after six it becomes a dry, snappy, excellent
refreshing beer.

Hops:
1 oz. Perle (not traditional, but I have them around) 8.0 alpha for 50 min. boil
1 oz. Willamette (Ditto) 4.0 alpha for final 2 minutes

I anticipate Final results to be around 1.060 OG, 34.5 IBU, and 3.6 Lovibond.

Any suggestions on this?

- -- Jeff Stampes -- NeoCAD, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff at neocad.com    --
- -- Ultimate Frisbee...It's not just for dogs anymore.                -- 
- -- Any fool can make bread out of grain...God intended it for beer!  --


Return to table of contents


Date: 14 Feb 1995 10:42:10 GMT
From: "WILLIAM F BIGGIN" <DW70151 at deere.com>
Subject: IMMERSION, STIR OR NOT


I have been lurking here for some time, gleaning mountains of data for
the improvement of my brewing.  Many thanks to all who have contributed.

I stir the wort while cooling with my home made immersion cooler.  It
was made of 3/8 OD copper.  I used some of the coil (50FT) that was left
over to make a secondary immersion coil.   This coil is 4IN in dia. and
about 4IN high.  I chill the wort with the main coil until I do not feel
any heat in the pot when I put my hand against the outside.  I then hook
the secondary coil in between the faucet and the main coil.  The coil is
put into a mixing bowl full of ice cubes and water.  This cools the tap
water before it goes into the main cooler.  This method has been working
great for me.  It takes less than 20 min. to get down to below 50 deg.
I also pinched the output tube partly closed on the main cooler to slow
the water flow (more efficient?).

William Biggin
"Chief Bill's Homebrew"
dw70151 at deere.com




Return to table of contents


Date: 14 Feb 95 12:24:41 EST
From: "William F. Cook" <71533.2750 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wort paddles/Guiness sour-mash


Mark Godar is looking for a big paddle to stir his decoctions. I know of
two options. I obtained a *large* stirring spoon from a restaraunt-supply
shop. This thing uses 1" PVC as it's handle, is plenty sturdy, and food
grade. Also, I have seen advertised in BT stainless steel spoons up to 32"
for what seems like a reasonable price, assuming you don't want to by the
thermometer/alarm option.

- ------------------------

Kieth can't remember where he saw the bit about sour-mashing a portion
of Guiness stout. I think you probably saw it in Papazian's new book. At
least, that's where I saw it. He says that approx 3% of Guiness is
sour-mashed and then pasteurized and added to the fermenting brew.

Bill Cook
HydroCOmp, Inc.
Team Dennis Conner



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:12:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: IBU measurements


There has been much discussion about calculated vs. measured IBU's in 
homebrew. One common thread seems to be that people are taking the IBU 
numbers on the raw hops as gospel. It would seem that if you are going to 
try and fit actual IBU numbers to a formula, you should also send in a 
sample of the hops used to see what their actual amount of alpha acids 
are. The difference between actual alpha acid and the number written on 
the package may explain some of the wild variations

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
waltman at netcom.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:07:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: First Annual Maple Brew-Off

As previously posted, the First Annual Maple Brew-Off will be held in 
Chicago on March 18th.  Entry deadline is March 11th.  If you have any 
Maple beverages, please consider entering.  I am putting together a 
judging panel with a great deal of expertise making and tasting Maple 
beverages.

Rather than tie up this forum's bandwidth with the details, I refer you 
to the relevant page on the World Wide Web:

http://www.mcs.com/~nr706/maple.html

If Web-challenged, or you need more info, please contact me directly via 
e-mail or on my BBS Network (see below)

Andrew Patrick (andnator at mcs.com)
Certified Beer Judge; Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network - Chicago 708-705-7263
Houston - 713-923-6418, Milwaukee - 414-238-9074

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 12:39:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: RIMS Temperature Control


Thought I would report the latest results from our experiments
with our system re: temperature control, heating rates, and so
on.  The full description of this system is currently in The
Brewery (http://alpha.rollanet.org), although I need to update
that article in a bad way.  We've added a bimetal dial-type
thermometer to the outlet tube coming off the mash tun, followed
by a ball-valve shut-off.

We half-filled the tank with hot tap water and began circulation
with the pump valve wide-open. The temperature stabilized at
120F, and we fired up the burner wide open.  Every 60s I read
the thermometer and recorded the results.  At two points we shut
off the burner completely, and looked for temperature drift.

Mind you, this is using *water only*, but the data still gives
us useful information for predicting behaviour during a real
mash.  Based on our past mashing experiences, I tend to agree
with Jeff Burton (HBD #1656 same subject) that we'll be able
to recirc with a full-open control valve.  In any case, I
recorded twenty temperatures over twenty minutes, reading the
thermometer to it's limit, then did a linear regression on the
data to yield 2.7F/min; the data was *very* linear.

Of possibly more importance than the heating rate is the fact that
when the burner was shut off, there was *no* perceptable temperature
change whatsoever for over 10 minutes, at which time I could just
detect a miniscule temperature reduction.  NO OVERSHOOT.  Again,
this is with water only--but I have no reason to expect grain to
change the behaviour provided the wort flow rate is similar.

This data indicates thermometer response to the water temperature
is at least as fast as the water response to the heat input.  It
tracked beautifully and didn't move a hair's breadth after burner
shut-off.

[Suddenly I felt as though readers may think I'm challenging the
need for or wisdom of automatic control--no, my *only* purpose here
is to invite others to witness the progress of system development
as it happens.  This will expose both the success and failure of
the development, but hopefully stimulate your corrective comments
prior to our failures.]

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:51:43 -0700 (MST)
From: kevin at wheels.aar.com
Subject: Making invert sugar?

Back many years ago, I recall someone telling me they made invert sugar
by boiling lemon juice (or citric acid?) with a heavy solution of 
sucrose.  Does anyone have a detailed proceedure for doing this?

Secondly, I've been using corn syrup to increase OG, but have read
both pro & con on using sucrose.  During my college days, I'd just
use sucrose to brew up a batch of cheap grape wine in the closet,
and it seemed to work fine :)   How does glucose (aka dextrose, corn
syrup, corn sugar) compare to sucrose in brewing, in regards to
it's rate of fermentation & the final alcohol content?

Thanks!
Kevin 


Kevin Hass WB0DPN
Pueblo, CO
USA
kevin at wheels.aar.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:10:12 EST
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Chiller results / Canadian suppliers? / Cloying beer

The polls have closed in the "to stir or not to stir" counterflow chiller vote.
The volume of responses precluded me from replying to everyone personally,
but i would like to thank all of you for you input, including:

Bob Hall, Ed Hitchcock, Richard Scotty, Spencer Thomas, David Cutkosky,
Pete Murphy, Domenick Venezia, Matt in Montreal, "N4331B" (?), Jim Ellingson,
Steven W. Schultz, Dan Sherman, Rich Larsen, Fred Cost, Dion Hollenbeck,
Christopher Gall, Jason goldman, "GRMarkel", Charles Jackson, Jeffrey Van
Deusen, Tom Ausfeld, bruce DeBolt, Steven Smith, Kurt in Oregon, and anyone
else who's name I missed.

of 26 respondents:
19 stirred their wort during chilling
7 did not

of 18 stirrers (the 19th didn't answer this question):
12 stirred part of the time
6 stirred all of the time

Only one person suggested a possible infection problem, and he felt that it
probably wasn't due to the stirring (he stirred part of the time).

There were a number of interesting points made by respondents:

 -Many felt the risk of infection due to uncovering the pot for 15 minutes to
be minimal. Especially if a healthy starter was pitched.

 -stirring is a lot less tiring than grinding the grain ;) .

 - some people "stir" by moving the chiller around. Saves dirtying a spoon.

 -people cover the pot with every kind of covering from saran wrap to aluminum
foil, to lids with holes in them.

 -The average chill time was around 20 minutes, with some people taking over
half an hour, and one or two people much longer than that.

 -lots of people are worried about offending brew gods and inviting hexes by
claiming to be infection free.

 -Dion Hollenbeck has a motorised stirrer coming down from a hole through the
lid in his pot. Motors are cheap.

 -Ed Hitchcock has all his coils curled around in a disc shape like a stove
element. This is held in place by a foot which rests on the bottom of the pot.
Convection currents do the stirring for him. The coils are held ~1cm below
the wort surface. This distance is somewhat important. Much lower and the
liquid above it doesn't cool. Much higher and the contracting cool wort will
drop below the level of the chiller. Designs for a float device anyone?


My conclusion: continual stirring probably isn't worth the effort. Ed's idea
shows the most promise, with Dion's a close second. Partial stirring is not
a bad compromise either. But one of the big reasons for getting an immersion
chiller was to be able to drop out cold break easily. If you stir, you still
have to wait for the break to settle after the wort  is cool. I often brew
in the evenings, so the extra 15-20 min is too long. Natural convection
currents are far more elegant a solution. I believe some experiments are in
order.


****************

Anyone know of suppliers that ship to Canada? Tried them? With extra shipping
+ the lousy exchange on our Monopoly money, are there any savings?

Also, any beer of the month clubs that ship in Ontario? I've seen a list of
800- numbers, but don't feel like calling them all. Anyone from Ontario
out there who's tried one?

***************

Finally, I have a Dunkelweizenbock that has a real cloying taste. Almost like
it's not quite finished fermenting. I'm reasonably sure that it's not a stuck
fermentation, and I was planning on bottling it weeks ago, but just don't like
the taste. O.G. 1065 or so (going from memory). FG 1018. Suggestions?
All this talk about dry hopping makes me want to add 1/2 oz of Saaz maybe.
is this a good idea?

As usual, my postings are too long. Thanks for the BW,
        Eamonn McKernan
        eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1659, 02/16/95