HOMEBREW Digest #1660 Fri 17 February 1995

Digest #1659 Digest #1661

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  Canoe Paddles/Mail Order Supplies ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Maltodextrin / Chicago Brewpubs (AGNORCB)
  San Diego (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  JudgeNet Digest call for participation (Brew Free Or Die  14-Feb-1995 1550)
  Making your own special malts (Mark E. Thompson)
  Mason Jars/Guiness (usfmchql)
  Sour taste in Guinness... (m.bryson2)
  Fix Mash Schedule/St Pauli Girl Recipes? (Kirk R Fleming)
  Re: lots of stuff (fromJim Busch) and my Guinness post. (Tel +44 784 443167)
  FW: thanks for info ("LOWE, Stuart")
  Chicago Illinois ("Paul Stokely")
  Congrats! (The Green Hornet)
  Dry Hopping, Infected Starter Wort (Arthur McGregor 614-0205)
  steam/Gott/false bottoms (Steve Robinson)
  Fish Bladders vs Kelp vs. GAF (rprice)
  Awarding a 50 (Jim Busch)
  Isinglass v Gelatine ("D.W. Blackie - Television and Imaging DJ - ext 5316")
  Aging a Tripel (Diane S. Put)
  Smokey/Trad. Porter (Michael Collins)
  Klages and protein rest (Mark E. Thompson)
  Re: Power Sparge (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Dropping Beer (John DeCarlo              )
  Yes, Fuller's is in London (Domenick Venezia)
  IBU levels in beer (Richard B. Webb)
  Questions & Ideas (SMTPM)
  Oxidized Pressure Barrel / "New" sugar found (Rich Larsen)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:15:00 MST From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil> Subject: Canoe Paddles/Mail Order Supplies Re: HBD #1657 >From: mgodar at autodesk.com (Mark Godar) >...row the wort I don't know what coatings are used on canoe paddles--there are also so many varieties. But I do know that Oasis Brewing in Boulder CO uses a plastic canoe paddle to stir up their mashes. They do this in front of the viewing public, which I personally wouldn't do, but their brewer obviously believes the plastic is okay at those temps. >From: Mike Thiessen <oep108 at freenet.mb.ca> >Subject: Catalogs I don't have a list, but you can add Precision Brewing Systems at (719) 667-4459 to any list you might get. PBS sells what appear to be extremely well-made advanced brewing systems, but I've not dealt with them nor have I used or seen their gear. They will send you a small catalog, which indicates they have a page in the Web. The catalog says to go to virtumall.com and look for East Coast Brewing Supply. >From: Robert Bloodworth <debaydr9 at ibmmail.com> >Subject: Homebrew System Bob--see the para above. PBS sells such a system and the price seems to be in the ballpark--from their catalog, for three tank stainless gravity fed systems (these are made from ss stock pots and not kegs), I get the following prices: 10 gal system 1095 15... 1275 20... 1880 25... 2725 You can convert to litres at your convenience. >From: Jim Ancona <Jim_Ancona.DBS at dbsnotes.dbsoftware.com> >Subject: Selecting Strains for Culturing >[On the subject of mixed-strain starters] George Fix talks about >this in [PBS] Thanks, Jim. That explains why I had seen reference to it somewhere. I have the book but didn't think to look in it for this info--just didn't occur to me! Kirk R Fleming -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore. Return to table of contents
Date: 14 Feb 95 14:55:00 -0600 From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs Brian writes (quoting Keith): >> I vaguely remember reading somewhere that this sour taste is >> achieved, not in the brewing process, but by actually blending the >> stout beer with a little bit of "bad" / contaminated beer. >> > I think that you were probably reading about the origins of >Porter. No, Keith is right. Guinness does set aside a certain portion of beer (3% if memory serves) and intentionally sours it. This soured beer is pasteurized and then blended back into the main beer. It is true, however, that dark grains have acidity and are part of the sourness. This dark grain acidity is also why dark beers can be successfully made with high-carbonate water, such as that in Dublin. *** Which leads-in to Kevin's question: >I'm brewing my first batch of beer (I'm a beginner) and the sample I took >from the fermenter today tastes very sour. If you put a lot of dark grains or dark extracts in there, then perhaps it's okay. If it's a pale or amber beer, then it sounds like you have a bacterial infection. If it's the latter, then read about sanitation in one of the "better" brewing texts (Papazian, Miller...) and re-evaluate your techniques. The reason I say "better" is because there are some really bad books out there which give all kinds of bad advice. *** Dan writes: >I took a Belgian Ale that I had made (11P, 27 calculated IBU or cIBU) and >measured the alpha (and beta) acids. I don't know who's formula I use, I >simply calculate the percent of alpha expected and then apply a linear >utilization of 30% for full 60 min boils and 15% for 30 min etc... <snip> >I measured 25.4 IBU What you used is very close to Rager's formulas. *** Dave writes: >There are lots of factors that affect utilization other than those >included in the common utilization equations. Garetz's book does a good >job of outlining these. Outlining is a good word, however he does more than that in his book. He gives formulas (which I happen to know were *NOT* based upon experimentation) to be used in estimating their contributions and presents them as if they were law. Do you agree with Garetz's claim that there is no bitterness for boiling times of 15 minutes or less? Are you aware of the fact that for more than a year Garetz was arguing in HBD "there is NO effect from boil gravity on utilization" but then when Glenn Tinseth showed a huge difference with his preliminary experiments, Garetz silently slipped out of the discussion. Lo and behold, a few months later, his book claims that there IS an effect from boil gravity and HERE are the formulas! Gosh, they look just like Ragers! >That said, I found it dismaying that Algis finds the process of >calibrating one's pallete with known IBU levels to be "worthless". I never said that calibrating one's palate was "worthless" but rather that trying to estimate the bitterness of a sweet stout with doctored Budweiser was. Tasting hundreds of beers and noting their bitterness as relating to their body, maltiness and sweetness, while taking into account their mineral content IS a valid way to calibrate one's palate to the tested IBUs as listed in books such as Fred Eckhardt's Essentials of Beer Style and Roger Protz's Real Ale Drinker's Almanac (3rd edition). If you are going to try to estimate the IBUs in your sweet stout, then use a commercial sweet stout as your yardstick. My primary complaint was that Garetz ignored all the other factors that influence the perception of bitterness and therefore presented a worthless procedure. Had it been explained with even a fraction of the detail that Dave or I have posted here, it would have been worthwhile. Remember... you paid money for Garetz's book -- you would expect it to be accurate and complete, no? >Guinness Extra -- for me do exactly the opposite. I percieve Guinness >to be more bitter, and I'm sure I get fresher Liberty here than he does >in Chicago. Liberty has a *huge* hop flavor and aroma profile, and that >might be confounding his assesment of bitterness. Are you aware that oxidized beta acids are bitter? Given that, older beer is often more bitter than fresh beer. What we get in Chicago is more representative of the Liberty that is tasted by the majority of homebrewers which are spread throughout the US. Besides, I think that a BJCP National judge should be able to tell the difference between bitterness, flavour and aroma, but you're right -- there are some that can't. Since Dave questions my perception, allow me to question Dave's. Perhaps Dave is misled by the sourness and roasted barley "bite" of Guinness and this is clouding his perception of bitterness. >I am aware of some work by Glen Tinseth and others using controlled >factors and measured outputs that is to be published in the future. I >await the data. What Glenn and Martin Manning are working on is the first scientific study of the factors associated with hop utilization that is to be shared with the homebrewing community. I await their results also, especially since I am one of the project's financial sponsors. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: AGNORCB at miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Subject: Maltodextrin / Chicago Brewpubs I have a few questions for the collective wisdom. 1. I was planning on brewing an extract pale ale and was going to add some maltodextrin for additional body. How many specific gravity points per ounce per gallon should I expect from the white maltodextrin powder? 2. Is maltodextrin unfermentable to all yeasts or just most beer yeasts (#1056)? 3. I am will be in Chicago this weekend on business and would like to check out some of the brewpubs in the area. Would anyone with information about the names and locations of Chicago brewpubs drop me a line? I vaguely recall a similar request about a month ago but don't remember seeing the final posting of the places to go. Thanks for all your help. Craig Agnor AGNORCB at miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:10:00 EST From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot) Subject: San Diego Where should one go in San Diego to drink beer? chuckm Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:50:38 EST From: Brew Free Or Die 14-Feb-1995 1550 <hall at buffa.enet.dec.com> Subject: JudgeNet Digest call for participation There's been some activity here following the AHA's announcement that they are ending sponsorship of the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP), and *lots* of activity on JudgeNet. While JudgeNet's population will probably never reach quorum status, it's good to have active, timely discussions in an almost realtime format. To that end, I encourage BJCP judges who are not subscribers to subscribe to JudgeNet and get involved in the discussion. I also encourage apprentice judges, and those simply interested in the continued success of the BJCP to subscribe. The flow of information is vital now more than ever. Active involvement from those who really make the BJCP what it is, i.e. its judges, can only benefit the program overall. There are currently less than 10% of active BJCP judges subscribed to JudgeNet - let's all try to do what we can to increase participation. It's possible that the BJCP will be able to save postage costs if on-line members agree to receive information in that format. I encourage homebrew club newsletters to publish the subscription information for JudgeNet, mentioning not just the immediate need for active participation, but also the merits of continued participation. I've seen lots of great discussions take place on JudgeNet, and positive changes as a result of those discussions. Your club newsletter can get the word out that JudgeNet is a forum where intelligent, reasonable discussions of issues concerning the beer judging community take place. Please encourage your editor(s) to publish JudgeNet subscription information. Subscription information is included below. Tell prospective subscribers that they need only send their subscription request to the administrative requests address, in the format shown. Ensure that apprentice judges (both those that have judged and those that would eventually like to) know that they are as welcome as BJCP-ranked judges. I'm told that AOL users are often given the wrong subscription address. The only correct address is judge-request@ synchro.com. Subscription administration is now handled automatically. If you send a blank or improperly formatted message to judge-request, you will receive a reply with the following instructions: TO SUBSCRIBE: Send a message to judge-request@ synchro.com containing the following line: subscribe address first_name last_name rank address: your Internet address first_name: your first name last_name: your last name rank: your judging rank ranks: apprentice: any unranked or inexperienced judge recognized: BJCP Recognized Beer Judge certified: BJCP Certified Beer Judge national: BJCP National Beer Judge master: BJCP Master Beer Judge misc: BJCP officers, non-BJCP judges (send details to chuck at synchro.com) For example: subscribe chuck at synchro.com Chuck Cox master You must provide all requested information. For multi-word names, use underscores (_) or dashes (-) to connect the words (i.e. Edward_James Forsythe-Smythe). Chuck Cox, who sponsors the machine on which JudgeNet resides, recently posted the Who's Who for the list. If anyone needs a copy to see who is and isn't subscribed, I'd be happy to send it. I'm looking forward to a better BJCP and JudgeNet when all the dust has settled. -Dan - -- Dan Hall Digital Equipment Corporation MKO1-1/A10 Merrimack, NH 03054 hall at buffa.enet.dec.com (603) 884-5879 "Adhere to Schweinheitsgebot Don't put anything in your beer that a pig wouldn't eat" --David Geary Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 17:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: "SET MAIL_DIRECTORY [.MAIL]" <JONE1719 at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu> Subject: Guiness I am extremely interested in making a home stout similiar to Guiness or Murphy's Stout. Erin Go Bragh! KEVIN J. JONES Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:23:42 PST From: Mark E. Thompson <markt at hptal04.cup.hp.com> Subject: Making your own special malts Full-Name: Mark E. Thompson I was wondering, after reading Miller and others, if anyone had tried making their own special malts such as Munich or Crystal. I have read about making crystal by the following method. Soak whole malted barley 24 hours in decloronated water. Place on a baking sheet in the oven at 150F for 1 hour (i assume that you could maintain this temp in an insulated cooler to the same effect). Crank up the oven to 225F and start roasting. Roast for one hour then rake and roast for another hour. Miller describes the same process with the exception of the fact that he recomends using a screen for holding the grain and no soaking. I know that if you use Klages you wouldn't get Municher but you may get an American version. Any info or pointers to the processes that the manufactures use to make some of these malts would be appreciated. BTW: How is biscut made? (I hear that some people only use a small amount of it in their grist, how much). - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Mark E. Thompson |Internet: markt at cup.hp.com | | Hewlett-Packard Company |FAX: 408/447-4729 | | Distributed Computing Program |Tel: 408/447-5185 | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 20:23:41 EST From: usfmchql at ibmmail.com Subject: Mason Jars/Guiness *** Resending note of 02/14/95 20:21 In HBD #1657... -=> Dave Sanderson asks about bottling to Mason jars... >Since they're designed for vacuum and not pressure I'm not sure if >they'd hold a seal. Bingo! Canning depends on enough heat to both soften the sealing material on the lid and to expand the contents of the jar. On cooling, the seal sticks to the glass; and the contents contract, drawing a vacuum. With beer, you'd either pasteurize the beer in the heating process; killing the yeast (therefore, no carbonation), or the seal material would be loose on the jar (therefore, no carbonation). May hold in the short run, but would most likely be blown off. Also, mason jars are designed much like carboys - they are stronger under vacuum than pressure. If you got one to seal, (ie. by leaving a ring on tight) it would likely blow up. (I've canned enough tomatoes to know! <G>) -=> Brian Gowland responds on the Guinness additive question... In defense of Keith Royster, I also recall reading something about the addition of 'double strength Guinness' to the new beer. I have exhausted my resources without finding this specific reference. Don't remember where I saw it. Papazian refers to it as 'pasteurized soured beer' in TCJOHB ('course it wouldn't surprise me if he's wrong...). Agreed that the bitter flavor of roasted barley is prominent in this brew... Anyway, just my $.02 (Shouldn't we be throwing in more than $.02? I mean with inflation and all???) Live and let brew... Patrick G. Babcock USFMCHQL at IBMMAIL (313)33-73657 (V) (313)59-42328 (F) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 04:04:00 UTC From: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com Subject: Sour taste in Guinness... To Brian Gowland( and Keith Royster).... correct me if I'm wrong- and I know that someone will if I am- but I believe that the sour taste in Guinness Stout that Keith refers to is caused by the addition of a small percent( 2%-3%) of pasteurized soured wort/beer to the main batch. Anyone that knows differently/more specifically feel free to tell otherwise. Good brewing, Duke Nukem Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 22:01:00 -0700 From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming) Subject: Fix Mash Schedule/St Pauli Girl Recipes? - I understand George Fix explained his 40/50/60 (or whatever) mash schedule in a HBD article quite some time ago. If anyone knows the issue (even approximately) please let me know, I'd like to get it from the archive. Thanks. - Deep in the darkest recesses of lurkerdom a fellow brewer wants to know if a recipe exists which can be coaxed into producing a St Pauli Girl clone. I myself want to know what style this commercial brew is considered (Pilsener, Munich Lager, whatever). Any help is appreciated. Kirk R Fleming -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:44:34 +0000 From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167) Subject: Re: lots of stuff (fromJim Busch) and my Guinness post. In HBD 1658, Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote: > > Domenick says: > > <If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the > <actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style > <ales, please respond by private email. > > Fullers is located in Chiswick, London, not in the Burton area. Yes, but they do "Burtonise" their water before use according to Gill the (very nice) tour guide who showed me and a bunch of drunkards around the brewery last August. The term Burtonising, of course, now simply means "treating the water in some way" and does not necessarily mean that they attempt to create a water chemistry similar to that of Burton-on-Trent. On the subject of my posting about the sourness in Guinness - a couple of people have pointed out that there is a version of Guinness that uses a percentage of soured, pasteurised beer in it. My comments were based on the Guinness that I am used to (brewed in England) which, unless I am hugely mistaken, doesn't appear to have the sour taste that has been described. The bitter, dry aftertaste that I have experienced is, to my knowledge, exclusively as a result of Roast Barley which I use extensively myself to achieve the same effect - unless, of course, someone knows different. Cheers, Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 12:24:00 GMT From: "LOWE, Stuart" <lowes at lishirl2.li.co.uk> Subject: FW: thanks for info ---------- From: LOWE, Stuart To: homebrew articles Subject: thanks for info Date: Wednesday, February 15, 1995 10:48AM Wow, Wow, Wow, I am staggered, impressed and very grateful for the vast and rapid response to my request for info regarding Beer in Seattle. Because of the vast amount of e-mail I have received on the subject It will take me some time to read and understand all of it ( I am not complaining)but I will not have enough time to reply and thank you all individually before I travel. There are obviously some key places to visit in the immediate Seattle area, I will do my best to get to the best of them. It's a hard job but someones got to do it :-)) Unfortunately I will not have the time to travel out to places such as Portland, Olympia or Tacoma. I will try to get to Pulsbo as I liked the place when last there. Too much Beer, too little time!!!! >From the number and enthusiam of the responses I can see that there is a great deal of interest in NW beer. I appologise for consuming public bandwidth, as I appreciate that there will be some ( many) people who are not interested in this subject ( Strange folks indeed) But as so many people travel around the world I hope this note will illustrate the response and support that can be obtained from the HBD. Many thanks Stu Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:19:04 EDT From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu> Subject: Chicago Illinois Well, I never thought I'd send one of these posts, but here it is: Can anyone recommend a good brew pub or micro-serving tavern in Chicago? Fortune has smiled enough upon me to send me there in mid- winter to for two nights near the University. Algis? Anyone? Thanks in advance, Paul S. in College Park, Maryland Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:24:15 -0500 From: ambroser at apollo.dml.georgetown.edu (The Green Hornet) Subject: Congrats! Congratulations Bill Szymczak on your second place finish in the Strong Ales category! As I spoke to you at the meeting last month, I lost your e-mail address, could you please send it? Bob Ambrose Now back to the regular scheduled program....... Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:47:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil> Subject: Dry Hopping, Infected Starter Wort Hi All, I have a few questions for the collective wisdom of the HBD. I dry hop a lot of my beers with 1/2 - 1 oz of pellet hops, using nylon hop bags. I recall reading that dry hopping will not add bitterness or head retention, only aroma. The thing is, all of my dry hopped batches have bigger head and better head retention, not to mention the expected great hop aroma :). Why is this better head and retention occurring, not that I'm going to stop or anything like that. The other item is starter worts. I have often bottled some of my wort prior to pitching yeast in the current batch, and refrigerated it in 12-22 bottles for later use as starter wort for my next batch of beer. I cap the bottles of unfermented, yeast free wort with previously sanitized bottles and caps. I have never had a problem with infected starter wort. Recently, I have tried to cook up small quantities of starter wort specifically for bottling for future use, or keeping my yeast alive, but they've all become infected before use. I use 4 oz of light DME in 1 qt of water ( SG~1.040, but no hops though) and boil for 5-7 min, cool the pot in cold bath, then bottle with previously sanitized bottles and caps with previously sanitized caps. These starters are stored unrefrigerated in my basement, and within a week or two there is all kinds of critters growing in them. Some of these unwanted visitors coat the top layer of the starter wort with a 1/8 inch thick matt, and other times there are fluffy looking balls (1/2 inch dia.) floating around the bottom. All the bottled starter wort has some other junk sitting at the bottom of the bottles, I'm guessing it is a combination of hot/cold break, as well as more living creatures, as they tend to get larger over time. My concerns are that I use bottles and caps sanitized by the same method for bottling beer, and I can't seem to make any safe starter wort. I sanitize bottles with beach or iodophor, and bottle caps by steeping in boiling water for 5 min. Is a small addition of hops to the starter batch necessary (and now 30 min boils), and/or refrigeration needed, or should I cook up the starter just prior to use? Any other suggestion would be appreciated. I think this will be of general interest, so please post replies. TIA! Have a good homebrew :) Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil) Lorton, Virginia "He's a good source of information, but seems to have little or no significant influence or authority" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:18:46 EST From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com> Subject: steam/Gott/false bottoms Several posters lately have queried the use of steam injection in the Gott cooler fitted with a false (or phalse) bottom. I don't do this (I use an EasyMasher<tm> in my Gott), so take this with a grain of salt. My concern with such a setup would be uneven heat distribution, such as that experienced when trying to direct-fire a mash kettle fitted with a false bottom. The liquid under the false bottom is difficult to recirculate, so its temperature is going to differ from that of the main mash. If the steam is injected under the false bottom, this liquid will be too hot. If the steam injection occurs above the false bottom, the trapped liquid will be too cold. This strikes me as being the preferred option, as it will result in a loss of efficiency rather than denaturing enzymes. One possibility would be to use a pump to continuously recirculate the wort during steam injection. Draw the sort out through the outlet pipe under the false bottom, and pump it back to the top of the main mash. The temperature could be monitored in the recirculation line, using a Temp-Tee or similar contraption. As long as the recirculation rate is sufficient to maintain even heat distribution in the main mash, the temperature increases become hands off processes (open the steam injection valve, start the pump, and wait until the desired temperature is reached). Of course, you want to be careful to minimize HSA in the recirculation process. OTOH, such a system would take you most of the way towards RIMS. All you need to do is move the heat injection point, and connect a PC running the appropriate fuzzy logic software :-). Steve (on the banks of the mighty Merrimack) Robinson steve.robinson at analog.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:57:46 -0500 From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Fish Bladders vs Kelp vs. GAF Dominik Venezia wrote to enquire about the extensive prep for isinglass and proposed the use of gelatin. I propose that you dump the idea of recycled animal products (make Peta happy!), and use sodium alginate or PVP as a fining agent, first you will find they are not as heat sensitive as the isinglass and can be sterilized in a microwave in the kitchen. Plus if you get really despirate for new things to do with your Ale you can up the concentration of alginate to about 2-3% by wt and if you add a bit of gypsum (calcium sulfate) you can get it to gel, just think Beer Jello ! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:17:44 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Awarding a 50 Spencer writes: <I have to admit that I've *never* scored a beer that high in <competition, nor have I ever been with a judge who gave a score that <high. Heck, I've only met one or two commercial beers that I felt <deserved a score as high as 47. At the risk of hitting a topic better addressed on JudgeNet, I cant resist commenting on this. I have in one instance judged a beer a 47/50, it was a pale beer made with hot peppers, a style I dont really like, but the beer was incredible. I dont know why I didnt give it a 50, if I had run across this beer in my travels, it would have been 5.0/5.0, which is the scale I personnally use. Now, I ask, why is this, skilled judges refuse to award a fantastic beer a perfect score? Are there no perfect beers in the world, even if one only likes it on a given day or mood? Ive been scoring beers since around '90. My database contains 940 records, of which 22 received perfect scores of 5.0/5.0. This is about 2.3% of the total beers scored. I try to be picky about what constitutes a 5.0, and I think 2% is about right. Ill include a few that made the cut: Vogelbrau Pils, Rochefort 10, Brugge Tarwebier, Anchor Steam, Ayinger Fortunator Doppel (wood), Kneitinger Dunkel-Export (wood), Paulaner Brauhaus HefeWeizen, Sierra Nevada Draught Ale, Celebration '88. I feel that we should not be afraid of awarding a perfect score, even if what we consider "perfect" changes over time. There are some perfect beers and homebrewers are making them too. Jim Busch busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov "DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:22:39 +0000 (GMT) From: "D.W. Blackie - Television and Imaging DJ - ext 5316" Subject: Isinglass v Gelatine I am a Homebrewer in Scotland and have been making all grain brews for about 10 years. DOMENICK VENEZIA asks why not use gelatine instead of isinglass? Well I've always used gelatine with no problems at all, it's easy to use - just dissolve in warm water and add to the brew at casking. The only brews which won't clear usually show some sign of infection, fortunately very rarely. There may be some sound reason for using isinglass which I am unaware of but gelatine works for me. I only discovered Homebrew Digest a few weeks ago but I am astounded by the the Products available to American Homebrewer and by how very seriously you approach your brewing. cheers Derek Blackie dwblacki at dux.dundee.ac.uk Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:13:46 PST From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put) Subject: Aging a Tripel >From "Don" Put: Jim Busch writes about me and my tripel: >Don writes about his tripple: >>I plan on conditioning it for a couple months at 50F (my cellar temp right >>(now), then pitching fresh yeast at bottling time. >Why such a long conditioning period prior to bottle conditioning? I >can see a few weeks, then bottle conditioning, but months seem like >overkill. According to Jackson, Westmalle's tripel "has between one and three months' warm maturation (10C, 50F) in tanks, is re-yeasted, primed with invert sugar, then bottle-conditioned at 20C (68F)." I figured two months would be a nice compromise. If it's good enough for Westmalle, it's good enough for me. Also, I prefer the rounding out of flavors I get when I bulk condition as opposed to just bottle condition. I suggest you try it sometime with high- gravity beers and see if you notice a difference. In addition to this, I like dropping most of the yeast out of suspension before I bottle so that the bottles are more aesthetically pleasing to look at (read: there's not a lot of sediment). don (diput at cello.gina.calstate.edu) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:21:38 -0800 From: mcollins at mail.wsdot.wa.gov (Michael Collins) Subject: Smokey/Trad. Porter Grants Perfect Porter. with its wonderful 'smokey' flavor, has inspired me to brew a porter. I am wondering if anyone knows a way to achieve that smokey flavor (without actually smoking the grains, as I don't have a smoker). The Brewers Companion lists "Brown Malt" as being a grain used in traditional porter to give that type of flavor, but is not available-- is there something that can be substituted?? As a last resort what common grain could be used Munich/ 80 - 120 L Crystal (Caramel)?? _____________________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 8:34:01 PST From: Mark E. Thompson <markt at hptal04.cup.hp.com> Subject: Klages and protein rest Full-Name: Mark E. Thompson In HBD #1655, Thomas Aylesworth writes: <I am planning on doing a basic pale ale next, using mostly <Klages and some Crystal malt. Should I bother doing a protein rest? I have been thinking about this question reciently, since i picked up 50# of the stuff and need to come up with a good mash program for it. Here's an article that i found that i'll throw on to the fire i hope the author doesn't mind me quoteing him. " Subject: Dr. Lewis on Mash Programs Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 01:21:00 -0800 GETTING THE MOST FROM AMERICAN MALT Notes from a talk by Dr. Michael Lewis Home Brew U March 27, 1993 The following is my attempt to put down the essence of a talk given by Dr. Michael Lewis, U.C. Davis ("the homebrew professor") at Liberty Malt Supply's Homebrew U on March 27, 1993, in Seattle. My notes are sketchy, but I believe this is a fair summary of Dr. Lewis's talk. Any errors are, of course, mine and not Dr. Lewis's. Pat Anderson. In mashing malt, we need to obtain a wort with sufficient extract and sufficient fermentability. "Extract" means the gravity obtained from a given quantity of malt. "Fermentability" means the proportion of the total extract that yeast can covert to alcohol. British pale malt is produced so that a single temperature infusion mash produces both sufficient extract and fermentability. For American pale malt, optimum fermentability is obtained at temperatures of 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ - 140^ F.). At these temperatures, the beta amylase enzymes produce maltose most efficiently. This happens early in the mash in a fairly short time, approximately 20 minutes. The alpha amylase enzymes, on the other hand, produce the dextrins that give us the total extract we desire at temperatures between 70^ - 75^ C. (158^ - 167^ F.). It is possible to mash American pale malt with a single temperature infusion. While this can be a reasonable compromise approach, it inevitably results in a loss of either fermentability or extract, since the temperature is not optimum for either. The best plan for mashing American pale malt is a "temperature program, " in order to obtain the optimum balance of extract and fermentability. A sample two temperature program, utilizing the popular "camp cooler" mashing method, would be something like this: 1. Stir in enough hot water at around 70^ C. (approximately 158^ - 160^ F.) to make a thick mash, so the temperature settles in between 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ F. - 140^ F.) Initial mash temperatures as low as 50^ C. (122^ F.) are acceptable. Hold for 20 - 30 minutes at this temperature. 2. After 20 - 30 minutes, add enough hot water just off the boil to raise the temperature to 70^ - 75^ C. (158^ - 167^ F.) for the remainder of the mash period. What many American home brewers don't realize is just how low a temperature American pale malt needs for optimum fermentability and how high a temperature it needs for optimum extract. Dextrins do not, as far experiments disclose, contribute "body" as is frequently stated, but rather contribute a desirable aftertaste. The so-called "protein rest" usually advocated for American pale malt does not seem to have any real basis. Everything that needs to happen in the mash will happen with a proper temperature program that addresses fermentability and extract. [Dr. Lewis's comment was actually that the protein rest was "bullshit"!] " Conclusion: Experiment! I think that i'll use the two step program mentioned here for my Klages. Either i'll decrease my chill haze or i'll get a good extration. I'm not a big clarity seeker but it I sure am proud of my brew when it looks crystal clear. BTW: Thomas, don't apologize about your post. Just from the replies that i have read it was a very worth while post. These discussions are what this group is all about, IMHO. - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Mark E. Thompson |Internet: markt at cup.hp.com | | Hewlett-Packard Company |FAX: 408/447-4729 | | Distributed Computing Program |Tel: 408/447-5185 | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:52:23 PST From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck) Subject: Re: Power Sparge Jeff Stampes asks about pressurized keg sparging. Although I have not done this, it would seem to me that cleaning grain and its residue from the inside of a corny keg would be a bitch. Other than that, it might make the sparge go too quickly, but surely could overcome stuck sparges. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hollen at megatek.com Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 12:04:59 EST From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org> Subject: Re: Dropping Beer I tried dropping my beer, but it didn't bounce, it just sat on the floor making a mess. Am I supposed to drop the glass, too? I'm afraid it will break and make a bigger mess. <grin> I can now safely say I understand how people feel who don't understand the terminology people like me throw around when discussing brewing. John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:28:18 -0800 (PST) From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> Subject: Yes, Fuller's is in London I said: <If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the <actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style <ales, please respond by private email. A few people have responded with the fact that Fuller's is in Chiswick, London. Yes, of course, but according to the brewing director at Chiswick they "Burtonize" their water in some way which is why I included it as a Burton style ale (argueable). Sorry for the confusion. Domenick Venezia ZymoGenetics, Inc. Seattle, WA venezia at zgi.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:12:34 -0800 From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com> Subject: IBU levels in beer Well, I might as well chime in on this one. After all, my name was used as the source of some of the data being bandied about... When I started brewing, I used the estimation method that I found in the hops issue of Zymurgy. It is similar to (if not identical to) the method that Dan McConnell uses: a linear utilization of 30% for full 60 min boils and 15% for 30 min etc, essentially # of minutes divided by 2. I modified this slightly when necessary, such as in high gravity boils. Then I bought Randy Mosher's book. The charts of hop utilization may not be TRUTH, but they look a lot like it! There was the fudge factor for high gravity worts, and the increasing utilization based on time of boil. I clasped this chart to my bosem, and plodded on. I figured out extremely complicated 7th order curve fits to match several of the curves, and incorporated these equations into a spreadsheet that I use to figure my recipies. It was this process that was challenged by George's experiments in IBU determination. He reported two recipes whose IBU levels had been measured by top government scientists, on load from the FBI. His recipes follow: George's section ON: Pilsner: Final volume is 6 gallons. Original gravity 1.050 0.75 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 75 minutes 0.50 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 60 min. 1.00 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 45 min. 0.50 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 15 min. Reported IBUs: 25.6 Rager's calculations gave me 32.75 IBU. Garetz's calculations gave me 26.47 IBU. Garetz was close enough for a match. California Common: Final volume is 6 gallons. Original gravity 1.050 .92 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 70 minutes .49 oz Cascade (AA 5.7%) 25 minutes .46 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 10 minutes .46 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 2 minutes Finishing hops were added at the end of the boil but should be of no consequence to the IBUs. Reported IBUs: 35.3 Rager's calculations gave me 35.8 IBU Garetz's calculations gave me 22.6 IBU. Rager was close enough for a match!! George's section OFF: I can't argue with that. The man made some beer, and sent it off to the lab. You could argue with the numbers, but I won't. This is a data point. I used my ever so mathmatically impressive spreadsheet to determine what numbers I would have come up with based on these recipies. Guess what? They come out different! Pilsner: 18.9 IBU total 0.75 oz gave 6.4 IBU 0.50 oz gave 3.9 IBU 1.00 oz gave 6.7 IBU 0.50 oz gave 1.9 IBU Common: 25.0 IBU total 0.92 oz gave 17.3 IBU 0.49 oz gave 4.0 IBU 0.46 oz gave 2.9 IBU 0.46 oz gave 0.8 IBU What does this tell us? It tells us that we are GUESSING as to what leads to hop utilization and bitterness. We know what makes it go up and down, but we are clueless as to the 'real' numbers. So how 'bout this. Find a method for determining IBUs. Stick with it. Test it. Explore it. Change it if you feel like it, but be consistant. If your pale ales aren't taking you to hop heaven, change your method. If your bocks are a little too bitter, change your method. I'm not going to say that Randy Mosher is God, but he's got a chart that can be used as a starting point. I've got a couple of excuses for why none of these things agree. But as a brewer, it's as much art and experience as science. My spreadsheet is just a tool, and I use it for tuning up my recipes. Have fun... Rich Webb Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 13:00:02 CST From: <SMTPM at VM.DCCCD.EDU> Subject: Questions & Ideas - --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:58:10 CST From: "Davis G. Hunt" <BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU> To: <homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com> Subject: questions & ideas Date: February 13, 1995 From: BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU Subject: Questions & Ideas Hello Fellow Homebrewers If you live in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area you must try the Yeugua Creek Brewrey. This is a small microbrewery in Dallas that has s selection of 5 beers that rarely change. Ranging from Ol' Texas Stout to an excellent pale ale. The prices are very reasonable, and the food is outstanding. This place also comes out with speciality beers for different occasions: ie for Valentines Day...a rasberry wheat beer, on St. Patricks day... free beer from 7 am to 8 am, then a mass, then at 7:30 pm an Irish beauty contest (redheads only ). Question: could one or more of the veteran home brewers please send me a recipe for a GOOD oatmeal stout? Your recipes are appreciated Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:59:20 -0600 (CST) From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org> Subject: Oxidized Pressure Barrel / "New" sugar found In HBD 1658 David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au> writes: > When I used a pressure barrel in the UK, I made every >conceivable effort to keep O2 out of the barrel, by purging with the CO2 >injector while I was affixing the top and goosing it periodically as well. >Nevertheless, in every single instance of non-rapid consumption (i.e. beer >surviving longer than a couple weeks), once about 3/4 of the beer was >gone, it began to taste strongly of oxidation--cardboardy, sherry-like. I have two comments on this: 1) What is the pressure barrel contructed of? If it's plastic, it may be allowing oxygen to diffuse into the beer. 2) What about the handling of the beer prior to filling the keg? HSA comes to mind. _________ Was browsing the East Indian Market the other day and came across a bag of "Rock Sugar". It has the color of Turbinado sugar (light brown) but has a nice pungent, almost malty, aroma to it. Turbinado just smells a bit like brown sugar. I doubt anyone has tried this in an ale or Belgian/Trappist but I thought I'd ask anyway. A nice unrefined sugar for sure. I suspect it is less refined than turbinado, which, BTW I have found at the same Jewel Food store as I found the Malta. ALSO... they have another brand of Malta as well. (22nd and Rockwell in Chicago, before anyone asks) And no... I haven't tasted either of them yet, but my next Ale brewing I'm going to pick up some of the rock sugar and I'll let you y'all know its characteristics. => Rich (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org) ________________________________________________________________________ Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263 "Spice is the variety of life." ... Me ________________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1660, 02/17/95