FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Extended Mashes ("Robert W. Mech")
  Beer Recipes/Head Retention/down-scaling batches (Ray Robert)
  RE: Infected Starter Wort ("Keith Royster")
  Re: Fix Mash Schedule (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Steam infusion ("Michael Bonner")
  Otter Creek quest, decoction/maltiness (Keith Frank)
  Confederacy&Beer (Charlie Papazian/Boulder)
  Chicago Beer Houses (Ed Holderman)
  Brewpubs in San Diego (Walt Thode)
  Dr. Lewis and Mashing (Jim Busch)
  5l party Kegs, Is Aluminum a problem? ("Robert Bloodworth                            ZFBTO    - MT0054")
  Canadian Lagers / Moosehead Replicas Sought ("Wood, Les")
  Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs (Ken Appleby)
  Guiness (Steve Robinson)
  Re:  IMMERSION, STIR OR NOT (Mel E. Martinez)
  BJCP Judge-Rank Questions... (James Powell)
  Recipe for Blackened Voodoo (Jill Martz)
  Infected starter wort (John Keane)
  Homebrew U - Seattle (GARY SINK 206-553-4687)
  What Garetz says/Using pressure barrels (David Draper)
  Info on Growing Hops (Blake Meyers)
  Where's the hops (daniel eugene gates)
  Slant Explodes--No Injuries Reported (Kirk R Fleming)
  single infusion mash ? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  hop garden ("Bummer, Paul")
  Corrected IBU Post ("George A. Dietrich")
  Re: AHA, IBU, DO RE ME . . . (PatrickM50)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 05:02:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Extended Mashes

For a while now, ive been mashing, usuing a regular time schedule.  
Meaning, such things as, "Protein Rest:30 Minutes" or "Sparge:45-90 
Minutes" etc.  For the most part, they have very specific times, and my 
curiosity is why that these times are not sometimes longer.  I would 
think that if for instance the mash time at 154 for 1 hour, was extended 
to lets say 1.5 hours, you could increase your extract efficency.        

Does this apply?  Is there some reason that it would not increase your 
efficency?  Is there some sort of saturation going on here?  Or am I on 
the ball here and should increase some of the times im allowing the 
grains to be subjected to the mash, before extracting the wort.

Typicaly, I get about 70% efficency.  Its not fantastic, but id like to 
know if I can improve this simply by increasing my mash durations.

And before you all start yelling "Do a decoction", I know I can raise my 
efficency that way.  Im looking for an alternative method.

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech


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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 08:11:00 PST
From: Ray Robert <rayr at bah.com>
Subject: Beer Recipes/Head Retention/down-scaling batches


Greetings!

I have a few questions for the collected wisdom of the digest.

1.  I went to a recent beer tasting festival and was impressed with a few of 
the beers from regional micros and was wondering if anyone might have 
recipes for the following (preferably extract):
     JW Dundee's Honey Brown
     Saxer's Lemon Lager
     Dixie's Blackened Voodoo
     Samuel Adams' Double Bock

2.  I know of several methods to get head retention prior to the ferment, 
but is there anything you can do at bottling time to increase head 
retention.  Will the type of priming sugar used affect the head retention?

3.  Is there a general rule of thumb for down-scaling say a 5 gallon batch 
to a 2.5 - 3 gallon batch?

Thanks

Robert Ray, rayr at bah.com

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Date:          Fri, 17 Feb 1995 09:57:32 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       RE: Infected Starter Wort

In HBD1660 Arthur McGregor is having problems with infected starter 
worts.  He states:

>I use 4 oz of light DME in 1 qt of water (SG~1.040, but no hops 
>though) and boil for 5-7 minutes, cool the pot in cold bath, then 
>bottle with previously sanitized bottles and caps with previously 
>sanitized caps.  These starters are stored unrefrigerated in my 
>basement, and within a week or two there is all kinds of critters 
>growing in them.

All it takes is one viable 'critter' to fall in your wort and your 
pre-made starters will be ruined.  I don't make my starters until I'm 
ready to pitch the yeast in them, so I won't pretend to be an expert 
on making bottles of pre-made starters, but I do remember reading 
about them (Steve Miller's book?).  From what I've read, I think the 
week point in your process is the cooling of the wort before you 
bottle it, which exposes the wort to the atmosphere (full of bacteria 
laden dust, etc..)  I beleive a better way is to follow a similar 
method to canning using mason jars.  The cooked wort would be poured 
into the mason jars which are then placed in a pot of boiling water 
(similar to a double boiler) and brought back to a boil for about 5 
minutes.  This should kill everything in the wort and in the jars.  
The lids should also be sanitized, either by boiling or other methods 
you are comfortable with.  Then, turn the heat off and screw the lids 
back on the mason jars.  As the jars cool down, the condensing steam 
will draw a vacuum on the lids for a perfect seal.  This method 
eliminates (almost?) all ways for your wort to become infected.

*Note* Be careful with drastic temperature changes to glass (ie 
pouring boiling wort in cold mason jars) or you could easily break 
them.  I would either have the mason jars already in the boiling pot,
(or at least warmed in hot tap water) or I would let the wort cool 
before pouring it in the jars.  I also have no idea if it is safe to use 
beer bottles instead of mason jars to do the same.


+------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Keith Royster                |  NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy |
| n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us |  919 North Main St.     |
+------------------------------+  Mooresville, NC 28115  |
| "I think I ran over my       |  Voice: (704) 663-1699  |
|  Dogma with my Karma."       |  Fax:   (704) 663-6040  |
+------------------------------+-------------------------+

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 10:02:15 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Fix Mash Schedule

This question has come up several times recently, so I went to the
back issues and dug out the original articles (from HBDs 1506, 1511,
and 1514).  They're now available through the FAQ link on my "Web"
beer page (http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/).  Look under the
heading "Mashing Systems".

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: 17 Feb 1995 10:44:40 U
From: "Michael Bonner" <Michael_Bonner at smtpgw.musc.edu>
Subject: Steam infusion

                      Steam infusion
Last weekend, I used my steam injection system for the first (and so far, the
only) time. It is based on the one described in Brewing Techniques (July/Aug,
'94) with a few differences dictated by the availability of materials.
Basically, I mounted a gas valve directly on the lid of a pressure cooker.
This leads to a ~6 foot length of 1/4 inch soft copper tubing which is
pinched off at the far end. 1/16 inch holes are drilled about 1/2 inch apart
in the last 12 inches of tube, which is coiled into a loop parallel to (and
above) the false bottom of the 5 gallon Gott that I mash and lauter in. I
purge the system of air while I dough-in, and make the first temperature
adjustment with heated water to thin the mash to a consistency favorable for
amylase activity. After that, all adjustments are made by opening the steam
valve and stirring gently and almost constantly. At 1 or 2 degrees below the
desired temp, the steam is turned off while the thermometer equilibrates. I
can raise the temp about 2 degrees F per minute and reach mash-out temp very
easily. I then give the mash a good stir, remove the copper tube, and let it
rest to mash-out and to form the filter bed. Even in a first-time use, it was
by far the easiest mash I have done, and I was able to dough-in, mash-out,
and lauter all in the same container.

In HBD 1660, Steve Robinson expressed concern that the heat pumped into the
mash this way will not heat the liquid below the false bottom and I agree
that would be a problem with any combination mash/lauter tun (other than a
RIMS). I try to minimize this by filling that dead space with hot water
before doughing in. That way, it's an enzyme- and starch-poor environment to
begin with. Also, the volume under the false bottom really is very small
compared to the total mash volume, so I think (or maybe just *hope*) that the
loss of efficiency is minimal, even negligible.

Steve also mentions that, if the steam outlet were *below* the false bottom,
the heat would not be transferred to the rest of the mash, and I've got to
agree with him there. Someone else (sorry) a while back, mentioned the steam
bubbling up through the false bottom, but that just won't happen. As SOON as
the steam hits the mash, it condenses.  It really surprised me when I tested
the system with just water, and no bubbles came up.

I have NO experience with EasyMashers, but if I understand the design, they
may be perfect for use in a dual-purpose system (steam-in, wort-out through
the same tube). 

All in all, my system is VERY cheap and easy to use (certainly cheaper and
simpler than a RIMS), and impresses the hell out of the uninitiated. YMMV.

Michael_Bonner at smtpgw.musc.edu in Charleston,SC, where the Ashley and Cooper
Rivers meet to form the Atlantic Ocean.



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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 09:46:25 -0600
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Otter Creek quest, decoction/maltiness

From:  Bruce DeBolt

I'm slowly working on an Otter Creek Copper Ale (Vermont) clone and I 
have some related questions from recent posts.  The Otter Creek label says 
something like - inspired by Dusseldorf style alt beer - but since I've 
never been to Dusseldorf I can't verify.

First attempt was to use a slight variation of the recent Dusseldorf Alt 
recipe in Winter 1994 Zymurgy issue - 8 lb Shrier 2-row, 1 lb Vienna, 1 lb 
Munich, 1/2 lb wheat, 1/2 lb Carapils; 156F single temp infusion (Gott 
cooler); lots of low alpha hops; Wyeast 1338(?) European Ale.

It was an excellent beer but not quite what I wanted.  It lacked 
some slight roast character I noticed in Copper Ale.  Keith Frank wanted to 
repeat it and I recommended some roast barley to replace the 2 oz. of 
chocolate malt.  He used 1 oz. of roast and it was definitely closer to 
Copper Ale, in fact it may be there but since I can't buy their beer in 
Texas I can't do a side by side.  Keith uses upward temp infusion so our 
mash programs are not indentical.  The brewer at Otter Creek told me they 
use single temp. infusion on all their beers.

I will share more details when the experiments are complete but 
for now I have a question.  My next two attempts will be:
#1 - replace 1 lb of Munich malt with 1 lb of D-C Aromatic Munich 
(to get a little more malt flavor)
#2 - do a simple decoction to increase maltiness further

I'm trying to determine if a simple 2-step decoction will be beneficial for 
increasing maltiness.  I figured I could save about an hour if I skipped the 
dough in/decoction step at 104F (recent posts) and: 
 - went straight to about 140-145 on the first strike, hold x min.
 - then pull about 1/3 volume, heat to 158, hold x min., boil
 - return to mash and hold at about 158 until saccharification is complete
 - either skip mash out (don't do it now) or do another, mainly liquid, 
decoction to mash out temperature

Mark Thompson's post from 2-15 on M. Lewis' talk had me wondering if I 
should employ those temperatures when I finally do the decoction:
>
Subject: Klages and protein rest .....

    A sample two temperature program, utilizing the popular "camp
cooler" mashing method, would be something like this:
    1.  Stir in enough hot water at around 70^ C. (approximately
158^ - 160^ F.) to make a thick mash, so the temperature settles
in between 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ F. - 140^ F.) Initial mash
temperatures as low as 50^ C. (122^ F.) are acceptable.  Hold for
20 - 30 minutes at this temperature.
    2. After 20 - 30 minutes, add enough hot water just off the
boil to raise the temperature to 70^ - 75^ C. (158^ - 167^ F.)
for the remainder of the mash period.
>

Rather than use hot water, I would do an actual decoction.  I've never seen 
temps above 158F recommended before, I thought this was the upper limit for 
the enzymes.

The questions are:
 - I've heard good things about the Aromatic Malt in recent postings, will 
my planned simple substitution for 1 lb of Munich malt have much affect on 
"maltiness" taste or perception? 
 - will a 2-step decoction increase maltiness signficantly beyond my typical 
single temperature infusion?
 - dare I do a decoction where the second temp hold is from 158-167F?

TIA, 

Bruce DeBolt
keithfrank at dow.com

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Date: 17 Feb 95 10:52:24 EST
From: Charlie Papazian/Boulder <72210.2754 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Confederacy&Beer

I have a question I'd like to ask anyone who may be able to help.  I have a
friend at the Stroh Brewing Company that is working on a project that requires
information on brewing in the American South and the Confederacy in the period
of 1850-1880.  Does anyone have or can they provide some insight or resources
on this subject, either any known published material or a contact with an
individual that has an interest in this subject.

This person, Joe Hertrich (VP of Brewing at Strohs) doesn't have an email
address that I know of so you could forward any leads you have to me and I'll
forward it to him.  Thanks.

I can also be reached directly through internet.  My internet address is 
Charlie at aob.org.

Thanks all,



Charlie Papazian

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 10:59 EST
From: Ed Holderman <0006776088 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Chicago Beer Houses

This is in response to questions about drinking beer in Chicago.  I moved 
away from there in March '94, so some of these may not be there anymore - 
call first. 
 - Goose Island Brewery/Restaurant (in city on Clyborne)- great micro brew, 
but could be gone. 
 - Berghoff's (in city near west)- Nice steak house/micro brew. 
 - The Mill-Rose Brewery/Restaurant (in Schaumburg area off I-90, far 
n/west), $$$. 
 - The Beer Palace (in city north on Lincoln?)- Best beers from around the 
world, ask about the Viking. 
 - Rumors of a u-brew from Paul Sovcik (pjs at uic.edu) in previous HBD. 
 - Get the "Reader" weekly mag for more info. 
You will not go thirsty, 
Ed Holderman.

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 08:20:04 -0800
From: thode at nprdc.navy.mil (Walt Thode)
Subject: Brewpubs in San Diego

> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:10:00 EST
> From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
> Subject: San Diego
> 
> Where should one go in San Diego to drink beer?

There are 10 brewpubs I know of -- this assumes you want a brewpub; 
there are lots of places selling microbrewery beer, mostly from the 
Pacific Northwest, but this list is of San Diego area brewpubs:

Old Columbia Brewpub - downtown, in amongst the highrises
Karl Strauss Brewery Gardens - in a Sorrento Valley business park n. of
                               town, operated by the Old Columbia folks 
                               (it's hard to believe, but this one has
                               the nicest surroundings)
Riptide Brewery - in the renovated Gaslamp Quarter downtown; perhaps the
                  busiest one in town
Pacific Beach Brewhouse - in the part of town known as Pacific Beach,
                          about two blocks from the beach (I generally
                          like their beer the best of those I've tried)
La Jolla Brewing Co. - in La Jolla (naturally); not bad beer
Hops! - in University Towne Center, one of the main malls; yuppified
San Diego Brewing Co. - in the Mission Gorge area, east of the
                        stadium; pretty good beer
Callahans - in a very unlikely place in a neighborhood mall in
            the Mira Mesa part of town; same ownership as SD Brewing Co.
Pizza Port (Solana Beach Brewing Co.) - along old 101 in N. SD County
                                        (I haven't tried their beer)
San Marcos Brewing Co. - further north, and inland (I haven't tried 
                         their beer either)

- --Walt Thode (thode at nprdc.navy.mil)

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:48:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Dr. Lewis and Mashing

>From a paraphrasing of Dr. Lewis:

<The best plan for mashing American pale malt is a
<"temperature program, " in order to obtain the optimum balance of
<extract and fermentability.

This is a comment from the same person who used to advocate a single
infusion system and sold such systems to craft brewers.

< What many American home brewers don't realize is just how low a
<temperature American pale malt needs for optimum fermentability
<and how high a temperature it needs for optimum extract.

Key word: optimum.  We're homebrewers, not Budweiser.  Optimum to me is
defined as acceptable results in a resonable time.  My time is more 
important to me than a few pennies worth of malt.  If I can get 
accpetable results using an infusion at 152F followed by a mash out at
170, then I dont do any additional steps.  Id also point out that a 
whole lot of beers made in the US that homebrewers would suggest are
excellent are made with a single infusion program.  A large selling 
pale ale on the east coast is made with a very quick single infusion,
which the brewers like to boast about; "get it in, get it out , get on
with it". 

Homebrewers are natural experimenters.  Do two identical batches, and
use the 135/140, 158F Lewis program for one, and the 152F/170F program
for the other.  Compare OG, FG and taste/flavor of the beer.  See for
yourself if any significant distinctions can be made.

<1.  Stir in enough hot water at around 70^ C. (approximately
<158^ - 160^ F.) to make a thick mash, so the temperature settles
<in between 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ F. - 140^ F.) Initial mash
<temperatures as low as 50^ C. (122^ F.) are acceptable.  Hold for
<20 - 30 minutes at this temperature.

Do these numbers look like reality for any homebrewers?  If I dough in 
at 160, my mash rests at 145, never below 140.  I also question the
advice to mash between 131-140 from a beta rest/maltose rest, as beta
amylase is most active between 140-149F, and survives into the low 
150s, which is why a significant amount of maltose is produced in a 
single infusion at 152F.  Also, if one is using a very low temp beta
rest, below 140, dont jump to above 160F and expect to get good 
saccharification, especially of you infusing boiling water, as opposed
to adding heat to the mash.  

- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:47:10 EST
From: "Robert Bloodworth ZFBTO - MT0054" <debaydr9 at ibmmail.com>
Subject: 5l party Kegs, Is Aluminum a problem?

  
This may have been discussed previously but I'm new to the list. Please steer me
to a faq or answer by e-mail if this is old hat.
  
Where can I find information on using 5l minikegs for storing homebrew. I just
bought a Frisch CO2 tap (16g catridges) and have ordered a catalog of additional
goodies from the nice folks at Grittman-Fass-Frisch Gmbh.
I'm looking for hints and tips on:
  
Filling and sealing
Priming for cask conditioning, is sediment a problem?
Forced carbonation, is it possible with the cartridge setup?
  
Another question: What problems are there with aluminum containers and hot wort?
A local restaurant supply store has some 60 and 80 liter aluminum alloy boiling
pots complete with a draining valve which cost less than half that of stainless.
Thanks in advance.
  
Bob Bloodworth

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 11:52:00 PST
From: "Wood, Les" <WoodL at VYVX.TWC.COM>
Subject: Canadian Lagers / Moosehead Replicas Sought


Oh, Canada!!

Does anyone know who sells Canadian Lager yeast by mail order (Williams and
St. Pat's/Austin don't)?  A buddy and I feverishly want to attempt a
Moosehead beer, which brings up the next question:  does anybody know of a
replica recipe for Moosehead?  We've checked all of the brewing books around 

and they never make mention of Moosehead!  Also, what's the secret behind
that unique aroma of the Moose?

Replies desperately sought!!

 The Lesmon  "WOODL at VYVX.TWC.COM"

***Beer...its does a body good***

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 17:05:54 GMT
From: Ken Appleby <ken at harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs


>>> Algis R Korzonas writes

  > No, Keith is right.  Guinness does set aside a certain portion of beer
  > (3% if memory serves) and intentionally sours it.  This soured beer is
  > pasteurized and then blended back into the main beer.  It is true,

I've heard this stated a couple of times here, and it's very
plausible, but I've never seen any source quoted for the original
information.  The Guinness FAQ at ftp.stanford.edu doesn't mention
this and neither do many recipes that I have seen.  My own experience
with home-brewing Guinness clones suggests that it isn't necessary.
Can you remember where this information originates?

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:32:55 EST
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: Guiness


Brian Gowland points out that his Guiness posting referenced the Guiness
brewed in England.  This is different than the Guiness exported to the states,
and both of these are different than Irish Guiness.  Due to folklore and
hearsay (ah, those two old devils) I'd always attributed this to differences
in the brewing water, and the fact that the stuff they ship here is
pasteurised.

On reflection, it seems obvious that with modern water treatment and quality
control techniques it should be possible to brew the same beer anywhere.  Hell,
A-B do it.  Are the differences attempts by Guiness to brew to local taste,
like the Beck's and Heineken products that are brewed specifically for the US
market?  Does anyone know what the specific differences are, in either
ingredients or technique, between the various versions of Guiness?

Also, I am familiar with the reference in Charlie P.'s THC to Guiness adding
soured, pasteurised beer to their product.  Does anyone have some independent
corroboration of this, or are we left taking Charlie's word for it?

Brew on,

Steve Robinson in North Andover, MA
steve.robinson at analog.com

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:04:08 -0500
From: mem at rowland.pha.jhu.edu (Mel E. Martinez)
Subject: Re:  IMMERSION, STIR OR NOT

William Biggin "Chief Bill's Homebrew" dw70151 at deere.com wrote:
>
>I stir the wort while cooling with my home made immersion cooler.  It
>was made of 3/8 OD copper.  I used some of the coil (50FT) that was left
>over to make a secondary immersion coil.   This coil is 4IN in dia. and
>about 4IN high.  I chill the wort with the main coil until I do not feel
>any heat in the pot when I put my hand against the outside.  I then hook
>the secondary coil in between the faucet and the main coil.  The coil is
>put into a mixing bowl full of ice cubes and water.  This cools the tap
>water before it goes into the main cooler.  This method has been working
>great for me.  It takes less than 20 min. to get down to below 50 deg.
>I also pinched the output tube partly closed on the main cooler to slow
>the water flow (more efficient?).
>

Hi Bill,

Try tossing some salt into the water and ice mix for the secondary chiller.
That will drop the temp in that bowl to below freezing (I forget exactly
what).  I'll bet you can chill this even quicker doing that.  Keep the
water in the tube running, though or it may freeze.  Also, why not leave
the secondary (actually a 'pre-') chiller in line for the whole cooling
process?

Cheers,

Mel Martinez
The Johns Hopkins University
Dept. of Physics
mem at pha.jhu.edu



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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:20:08 -0600
From: jpowell at surgery.bsd.uchicago.edu (James Powell)
Subject: BJCP Judge-Rank Questions...

I would like to ask a few questions concerning the Beer Judge Certification
Program (BJCP) and the ranks of BJCP Judges.  

What is the BJCP?
How does one become a judge?
How does a judge go about obtaining the next highest rank?
Are there classes to take; fees to pay?
Is there an anual membership fee for a judge to maintain his present rank?
Does a judge have to take future classes/exams to maintain his present rank?
What type of power is invested into each judge at each given rank?
What can these judges do with their certificates?
Can the obtained skills and knowledge of a judge be used to offer a service
to breweries?

If someone could please post the answers to my questions, I would appreciate
it.  I'm sure a lot of others out there would like to know a little bit more
about BJCP, too.

Thanks,

Jim Powell


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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:44:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Jill Martz <SAL_MARTZ at sals.edu>
Subject: Recipe for Blackened Voodoo

Does anyone have a recipe for Blackened Voodoo or Dixie's Blackened Voodoo
beer??
Please respond to "SAL_MARTZ at SALS.EDU"
Thanks!

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 15:17:17 -0500
From: John Keane <keane at cs.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Infected starter wort

In HBD#1660, Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil> writes:

>Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:47:28 -0400 (EDT)
>From: 
>Subject: Dry Hopping, Infected Starter Wort
>
 [...]
>   The other item is starter worts.  I have often bottled some of my wort
>prior to pitching yeast in the current batch, and refrigerated it in 12-22
>bottles for later use as starter wort for my next batch of beer.  I cap the
>bottles of unfermented, yeast free wort with previously sanitized bottles and
>caps.  I have never had a problem with infected starter wort.  Recently, I
>have tried to cook up small quantities of starter wort specifically for
>bottling for future use, or keeping my yeast alive, but they've all become
>infected before use.
>
>   I use 4 oz of light DME in 1 qt of water ( SG~1.040, but no hops though)
>and boil for 5-7 min, cool the pot in cold bath, then bottle with previously
>sanitized bottles and caps with previously sanitized caps.  These starters
>are stored unrefrigerated in my basement, and within a week or two there
>is all kinds of critters growing in them.  Some of these unwanted visitors
>coat the top layer of the starter wort with a 1/8 inch thick matt, and other
>times there are fluffy looking balls (1/2 inch dia.) floating around the
>bottom.  All the bottled starter wort has some other junk sitting at the
>bottom of the bottles, I'm guessing it is a combination of hot/cold break,
>as well as more living creatures, as they tend to get larger over time.
>
>   My concerns are that I use bottles and caps sanitized by the same method
>for bottling beer, and I can't seem to make any safe starter wort.  I sanitize
>bottles with beach or iodophor, and bottle caps by steeping in boiling water
>for 5 min.  Is a small addition of hops to the starter batch necessary (and
>now 30 min boils), and/or refrigeration needed, or should I cook up the
>starter just prior to use?  Any other suggestion would be appreciated.  I
>think this will be of general interest, so please post replies.  TIA!

I think what you're seeing here is the difference between "sanitizing"
and "sterilizing".  In most of home brewing, it is sufficient to knock
down the population of nasties (bacteria, molds, wild yeasts, etc.) to
_low_levels_ rather than guaranteeing that they are _all_ killed
because you will soon be introducing a vigorous, healthy culture of
yeast that will quickly establish itself and provide enough
competition for the available resources (sugars, oxygen), that the
other organisms will have a hard time making any progress.  Thus,
sanitizing is sufficient.

On the other hand, when you are canning wort for later use, if
*anything* is alive in there when you seal the bottle, it will have
plenty of time to get itself together and take advantage of a
fantastically rich growth medium (yum!).  Result: within a few days,
infection city!

Charlie Papazian gives a procedure for canning of sterile wort in beer
bottles in _The_New_Complete_Joy_of_Home_Brewing_, but I prefer (and
use) the method suggested by Dave Miller in _The_Home_Brewing_
_Handbook_.  Miller suggests that you go out and buy mason jars for
home canning (pints or quarts, about $5/doz), and follow standard
canning procedures for sterilizing and sealing them.  The key to these
jars is the way the lids seal: you heat them to boiling temperatures
with the wort in them and the lids in place (ensuring the demise of
anything likely to eat wort), and allow them to slowly cool, forming a
vacuum seal.  I have successfully stored jars of wort preserved this
way for 9 months at room temperatures before use.  You will need to
buy new lids each time you can a batch, at a cost of about $1 for 12.
Check your local hardware store for supplies.

I have punched a hole in a used lid large enough to allow me to fit an
airlock in it, so when I need to make up a starter, I sanitize the
holed lid and the airlock, shake the sealed jar of wort thoroughly to
aerate, pop the lid, dump in the yeast, and put the lid and airlock
on.  It takes less than 5 minutes to get a starter going.

_John_


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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:14:00 -0500 (EST)
From: GARY SINK 206-553-4687 <SINK.GARY at epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Homebrew U - Seattle


          Someone asked about logistics for Homebrew U, the one day seminar 
          held in Seattle each year.  It's sponsored by Liberty Malt/Pike 
          Place Ale/Merchant du Vin Importers, all owned by Charles Finkel.  
          Anyway, this event has been held in March the last few years, so 
          I went to the store to ask them about it.  They are changing the 
          time of year to autumn starting this year, specifically October 
          14th, so make your travel plans now.  No word on location or 
          guest speakers (which usually include the likes of Jackson, 
          Eckhardt, Mosher, Burch, and professional brewers as well).  I'll 
          post specifics when they are announced (unless I get feedback 
          that it is local interest only), and plan to summarize the event 
          afterwards (especially the food/beer match-up, -hic-).
          
          Gary Sink
          Environmental Protection Specialist and Homebrewer 
          (sometimes at the same time)


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Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 08:54:25 +1100 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: What Garetz says/Using pressure barrels

Dear Friends, in #1660 Al K. commented again on his low opinion of Mark
Garetz's book Using Hops.  Now, I share most of his misgivings,
particularly with respect to the IBU formulation section.  I know that Al
has even more bones to pick, and he has admitted publicly that his
distaste borders on vendetta.  Having said all that, though, I feel that,
at least in Al's most recent post, he's got some facts wrong.  In
particular, about the IBU formulations being presented "as law" and the
IBU taste-titration methods perceived flaws.  To set the record straight,
here are a couple of verbatim quotes from the book.

1. On the subject of how close the Truth the IBU formulas are, p. 128: "I
would be remiss if I didn't mention here that *all* IBU prediction
formulas, (no matter how many factors we try to account for) are subject
to errors because we're really just making educated guesses as to what's
going on with each brew. [Italics on] So be prepared to make your own
adjustments to the formulas if they don't seem to be working for you.
[Italics off]  If the beer doesn't have the right amount of bitterness,
most brewers will blame everything *but* the formula, when it is the
formula itself that is at fault.  Just because it's math, that doesn't
make it science!  Also, if you want to use some of these correction
factors, be aware that they are new and still largely unproven.  They were
based on published research (see refs in Biblio) and utilization data from
a few batches where the IBUs were measured and the brewing variables were
known, but I would have liked to have much more data.  Research is
continuing, but in the meantime your feedback on how well the new formula
and factors work for you is encouraged."

My comment: I agree he should have gotten those additional data before
going to press, as I am sure Al would; but it's just not fair to say he
presents the formulas as carved in stone--the above is to my mind a
respectable disclaimer, just like all of us who say "your mileage may
vary" in our HBD posts.  I still think the formula is way off for my own
setup, as I have posted many times.

2. The IBU taste-titration method: on p. 146: "To use this method, you
will need calibrated iso-alpha extract, [dropper, glasses etc],  and a
beer of known IBUs that is similar in style to the beer you want to know
the IBUs of."  Next page, when he does mention Bud, he says "If all else
fails, you can always use Budweiser.  Because it's not similar to any beer
you're likely to brew, your results won't be quite as accurate, but it
will probably be close enough."  

My comment: I think he covers his tail quite well by first saying "beer
similar to the tested beer" and then "if all else fails..."  I don't think
what's here is fundamentally different from what Al argued (rightly)
should be done.

Again, I am no fan of many things in this book, but I think everyone
deserves to be judged on *what they say*, not on what someone else
*thinks* they say.

Rich Larsen asked about my use of pressure barrels.  Yes, Rich, it was
thick HDPE plastic, but I don't think the beers I barreled ever survived
long enough for simple age oxidation.  I did mention a 2-week cutoff or so
to define those beer that were consumed "rapidly" but those that survived
longer than 2 weeks only did so for maybe a month at most.  This is
because, well, um, er, I drink more than I probably should (gasp).

However, I was much less experienced then, so other forms of oxidation
were much more likely than they are now.  However, once I shed most of
those baby diseases, the same trend continued, and the beer tasted pretty
good and definitely not oxidized in the initial stages of barrel sampling.
Can oxidation due to HSA produce flavors etc that don't show up right
away?  If so that could explain what I observed.

Sorry for another long post.  Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Life is short; grain is cheap." ---Rich Lenihan
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 17:56:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Blake Meyers <bcmeyers at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Info on Growing Hops

Thank you all for your help on my quest for hops growing information. I 
had a request to post the information that I recieved, so here it is.  Please
note that I am just regurgitating what others passed on to me - so if you
recognize it as your own, thank you, and if the information doesn't pan 
out, don't blame me...

>From what I can gather, you can buy hops from certain garden and nursery 
catalogs, and from many homebrew catalogs. You should order soon, because 
most places ship them out only once a year, about March, and apparently 
hops should be planted as soon after the first frost as possible. One 
suggestion was that if you are just starting out, you may wish to buy 
only Cascades, because they are a good all-around hop, and very 
difficult to kill.
 
For more information on hops growing, it was suggested to trackdown a 
backissue copy of BREWING TECHNIQUES  May/June 1994 (Vol 2 , No. 3). It 
has a great article on growing hops and getting cuttings by mail.

Hops comes as rhizomes, not seeds, because it is diecious (sp?) and you 
only want female plants.  They are vines which grow quickly and like a 
lot of space, as well as a lot of sunshine. Apparently they'll grow in most
areas of the North America, but do best if the ground freezes in the 
winter.  Everyone seemed to agree that they are easy plants to grow.  
The rhizomes should be planted aninch or two under the soil, and will 
grow up to a foot a week in peak season, reaching a maximum length of 
about 30 feet, and, of course, as vines they need something to climb on.

Some of the suppliers ( I'm sure there are many more, but these are the 
ones that people suggested.):

"Alternative Beverage" in NC
1-800-365-2739.  
Each rhizome was $2.25

Freshops
36810 Kings Valley Hwy
Philomath, OR 97379   (503) 929-2736

Marysville Oast
866 NW 1000 Oaks
Corvallis OR 97330

Nichols Garden Nursery
1190 N Pacific Hwy
Albany OR 97321       (503) 928-9280

The Herb Farm
32804 Issaquah-Fall City Road
Fall City WA
98024                 (206) 784-2222






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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 19:24:49 -0700 (MST)
From: daniel eugene gates <gatesd at unm.edu>
Subject: Where's the hops

Does anyone have a good supplier of hops rizhomes? It's 
getting close to garden time here in the southwest and
I want to order a variety soon.  Please repy here or 
personally - but not to personal.  Here's one for you 
brew heads - tanks-a-brew-haha (never mind)
Dan Gates gatesd at unm.edu

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:31:06 -0700
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Slant Explodes--No Injuries Reported

You know, I read some of the weird stuff homebrewers do and read
some of the weird things that happen to homebrewers, and I've
always wondered, "When will my turn for weird stuff come?"

I have my answer.  I decided it was time to build a starter tonight
from some Wyeast 1098 slants, so I put the kettle on the boil and
pulled a slant from the fridge.  While the water came up and I
measured out 4 oz of M&F Plain Light DME, I warmed the vial in my
hands, occassionally putting under my chin while I used both hands
to tidy up the kitchen.

I set the vial down on the counter while I checked the boil, and
after a few minutes noticed the slant had liquified.  This came as
little surprise, since I already knew the mix I used was close to
it's melting point at just above room temp.  I proceded to shake
the vial, and after a short time I had a nice, homogeneous solution
of the fertile stuff.

After the wort went into a 1/2 gallon jug (about 100 mL of wort)
and cooled, I put the airlock on lightly and grabbed my slant.  I
already knew the cap would be very tight, so I reefed into it with
all the vigor of an impotent beach boy, and whooooaaaa jack!  This
puppy cut loose with near-explosive decompression that even caught
the attention of my 12 year old across the room.

What makes this story so bizzare is that the sudden release of pressure
in the 24 mL vial foamed the culture so badly and so thoroughly that
it wouldn't come out of the container.  No amount of shaking or tapping
would get it to pour out.  

I was at a loss for solutions to my problem, except for rinsing the
vial out with tap water, which seemed doomed what with the chlorine.
What to do?  I sanitized the outside of the vial as best I could and
dropped the whole thing into the jug, sloshed it around and airlocked
it.  Since I thought I may have really challenged the yeast with so
much wort, a possibly dirty vial in the jug, and several other kinda
questionable steps, I decided to add the contents of two other vials
that had been in the fridge: about 50 mL of the original Wyeast pack
contents.

Now, for all you yeastheads out there: my slant is a 24 mL vial 1/2
full of medium populated with a yeast colony whose total area is less
than 1.5 cm2, by my estimation.  Are you surprised such a small amt
of yeast produced that much pressure?

Kirk R Fleming
 -Livin' right out there on the edge, baby
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.


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Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 06:55:29 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: single infusion mash ?



I have been following the RIM system talk for a few weeks now
and in planning my 10 gallon brewing sytem using three kegs I
believe that RIM is the way I would like to go, eventually.
But to start out I would like to do it as simply as possible.
And it seems to me that many micro breweries use a single infusion
in the mash and make very good beer.
Is any one using a keg for the mash/lauter tun and doing a single
infusion? If so what is your water temperature schedule? How does
it change with more or less grain? 

Any other advice along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick Pauly

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Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 08:35:38 EST
From: "Bummer, Paul" <bummerp at uklans.uky.edu>
Subject: hop garden


          The snow may still be flying in most of the country, but
          here in Kentucky, our thoughts are turning to the coming
          spring and planting season.

          I've been kicking around the idea of trying to grow hops
          in my backyard garden this year, but have not had any luck
          in finding a source of seeds.  Local garden shops are no
          help and the local source of brew supplies is also stumped.

          Any help by fellow homebrewers-gardeners would be greatly
          appreciated.

          Paul M. Bummer, Ph.D.
          College of Pharmacy
          University of Kentucky

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Date: 18 Feb 95 09:07:12 EST
From: "George A. Dietrich" <74543.310 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Corrected IBU Post

I'm posting this correction to my original post that appeared in HBD 1657.  In
the post I stated that the Garetz IBU formula gave me 26.47 IBU for the Pilsner
beer.  It seems that I can't read my own handwriting.  The post should have said
20.47 IBU. This probably approximates the calculations of those who ran
calculations with my numbers more closely.   Hope I didn't cause too much
confusion.

George


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Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:30:42 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: AHA, IBU, DO RE ME . . .

I like Rich Webb's summation of the current IBU quandry:

<<<<<
What does this tell us? It tells us that we are GUESSING as to what leads to
hop utilization and bitterness. We know what makes it go up and down, but we
are clueless as to the 'real' numbers.

So how 'bout this. Find a method for determining IBUs. Stick with it.
Test it. Explore it. Change it if you feel like it, but be consistant.
>>>>> 

That philosophy works quite well for my own personal brewing satisfaction
needs.  I don't really care (too much) what formula I use as long as it
serves as a reliable reference for me.  But it seems that the real problem is
when I want to make a beer that fits within the published style guidelines of
the AHA.  So my *real* question is this:  How are the AHA *desired* IBUs
determined?  I mean, if you were me (or conversely, if IBU) and you wanted to
enter an AHA competition, wouldn't you want to know how the appropriate IBU
range for a particular style was determined?   I mean, if I'm copying a
recipe that just won the national AHA competition for that category but my
IBU calculation is wildly different from what the AHA stylesheet says is
typical of the style,  what am I supposed to think? Is my IBU formula wrong
or do the guideline numbers not really matter? 
So what I (and lots of others, I hope) would like to know, is this:  What was
the basis for determining the IBU characteristic of each AHA style?  It seems
logical to me that if we are going to be judged by how close we come to this
ideal, we should at least know what went into calculating that number in the
first place. No?

Pat Maloney (PatrickM50 at aol.com)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1662, 02/20/95