FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  irish moss/beer engine (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
  Re: Cask ideality/CO2-filled keg to reduce Real Ale oxidation (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Isinglass Preparation ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Re: Stout; ESB yeast (Dave Coombs)
  enamel vs. Stainless ("PWK Info. Sys. #6166")
  B-Brite (Matt_K)
  Style Guidelines on the 'net (Shawn Steele)
  Guinness and that elusive sour taste (Jeffrey M. Collins)
  Burtonisation/Isinglass (Paul Murray)
  triple beam balance ("Charles S. Jackson")
  Re:automated brewing...valves (RPMTPLHS)
  Isinglass Preparation ("Robert W. Mech")
  Zymomonas and The New Basement Blues... ("Patrick G. Babcock")
  Fass Frisch Party-Star Question (Paul Gibson)
  Partial Mash Recipe's (Ray Louvier)
  Paddles, pots and other wonderful stuff! ("Karl F. Lutzen")
  RE: Yeast Genecide (bonehead move)/Carbonation of Wyeast London ESB (david lawrence shea)
  Extract & gravity (Mark A. Stevens)
  RE:paddles (Jim Busch)
  GOTT cooler mashing and manifold design ("I see them through a crystal haze, And hear them bouncing round the room  16-Feb-1995 1010 -0500")
  thermometers, klutz-wise (RONALD DWELLE)
  Re: First All-Grain ("Thomas Aylesworth")
  Wheeler on "Dropping" (Jim Cave)
  Signup? (RHENDRY)
  Gott (Pat Anderson)
  Phalse Bottom or copper manifold? (Bob Eddy, ext. 5930)
  Getting pumped up! ("Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606")
  1995 AHA style guidelines locations/Dunkelweizen (MHANSEN)
  Banana aroma (Sean C. Cox)
  Anderson Valley Yeast (Diane S. Put)
  Lesson Plan (Gregory J Egle)
  IBU levels (Fredrik Stahl)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 14:16:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
Subject: irish moss/beer engine

Hey,

A while back, somebody quite respected here on HBD (Dr. Fix or Jim Busch 
maybe?) wrote concerning the optimum amount / time-in-boil when using 
irish moss. I think they had _actual scientific evidence_ to back it up,
too! Does anybody still have this info? Lately I've seen widely varying 
opinions about how much to add (anywhere from 1/4 tsp - 3 Tbs) and when.

Jerry Cunningham
Annapolis, MD

ps  What's a beer engine?

 

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Date: 15 Feb 95 13:30:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Cask ideality/CO2-filled keg to reduce Real Ale oxidation

David writes:
>When I used a pressure barrel in the UK, I made every
>conceivable effort to keep O2 out of the barrel, by purging with the CO2
>injector while I was affixing the top and goosing it periodically as well. 
>Nevertheless, in every single instance of non-rapid consumption (i.e. beer
>surviving longer than a couple weeks), once about 3/4 of the beer was
>gone, it began to taste strongly of oxidation--cardboardy, sherry-like. 
>As my brewpal Ken Willing says, "That's all very well in practice; but
>will it work in *theory*?" :-}

I suspect that the problem was not in the headspace, but in the container
itself.  All the "pressure barrels" I've seen coming from the UK have been
made of polythene (called polyethylene in the US).  This plastic is notorious
for being permiable to oxygen and, despite what appears to be intuitive (that
the CO2 pressure inside would keep O2 out) is, alas, not how it works. Even
though you purged the headspace O2 out with CO2, O2 still got to the beer
through the walls of the barrel itself.  Sure, the beer would have oxidized
faster if the headspace were not purged, so this procedure does have merit,
but unless you used a stainless steel or glass (low pressures only folks!)
container, the oxidation through the plastic walls is inevitable.

****
P.G. writes:
>Connect a line from the beverage out
>fitting of the CO2-filled keg to the beverage out fitting of the beer-filled
>keg. Open the gas in fitting or pressure relief valve of tHE co2 keg, and tap
>the gas out fitting of the beer keg in the manner described above. Since CO2
>is heavier than air, your gravity system will now draw CO2 from the second
>keg instead of air. This method was successful in keeping a CAMRA-style ale
>fresh tasting for the month it took to consume it <G>.

As I read this: the beer flowing out of the beer keg will draw gas from the
gas keg which will draw air from the outside to replace loss in the gas keg.
If this is the case, I see a problem with it.

CO2 is heavier than air, but it's a gas.  It is tempting to think of it as a
liquid, sitting in the bottom of your keg with air at the top, but it doesn't
work that way.  If the keg is partially filled with CO2 and partially filled
with air, the two will be separate *at first* but diffusion will soon mix
the gasses into an even distribution.

As for why your ale remained fresh-tasting, perhaps it was a higher-gravity
ale -- according to the article on Beer From Stainless in BT, higher-gravity
ales will keep quite a bit longer than lower-gravity ones.  If you keep the
keg cold between serving sessions, this will also reduce the rate at which
oxidation takes its toll.  Finally, since at first you were pulling 100%
CO2 into the beer keg and then 90% CO2, then 80% CO2... your procedure did
in fact reduce the amount of oxygen available to do harm, so it *does* help,
but it is not as ideal as it initially may appear.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 11:55:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Isinglass Preparation


RE: HBD #1658

>From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
>Subject; Isinglass Preparation - Why?

Domenick asked why so much prep for isinglass when it's just
expensive gelatin, referring to the posts suggesting a 24 hour
water soak for isinglass.  Although I can't answer that, here's
some related information:  I can only get liquid isinglass at my
homebrew shop.  I've read that this is a real advantage because
it doesn't require any preparation, and the dealer keeps it
cold--of course it's been warm during shipment, I assume.

The book that said the liquid stuff is good I believe referred to
it as "pre-hydrolyzed" isinglass, and since there seems to be
a number chemists out there, I ask what this means, in layman's
terms.  "Hydrolyzed" does not sound like "dissolved" to me.

The only problem with the info on isinglass preparation that
was posted earlier and the use of this liquid stuff is in getting
analogous concentrations.  The pre-hydrolyzed isinglass
comes in a bottle with a recommended usage rate, but
does not say anything such as "contains x mg dehydrated
isinglass per L" to indicate its concentration.  Any guidance
from 'the HBD community' is appreciated.

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 15:30:31 -0500
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: Re: Stout; ESB yeast

rich at lenihan.iii.net (Rich Lenihan) writes that he uses 1# of 500L
roasted barley for color/flavor in his stout.  My high precision ;)
5 G dry stout recipe uses something like (if memory serves):

7-8# pale malt
1# crystal or flaked barley or both
1# chocolate malt
hops to taste

Sometimes I add a # of roasted barley, but the basic recipe seems to
satisfy my guests.

Regarding ESB yeast (and others) you won't believe the short lag
times you'll get by dumping your new batch right onto the yeast of
the previous batch.  The primary yeast does seem anecdotally a bit
more vigorous than secondary yeast, so dumping on the lees of a
single stage ferment of, say, a week seems to work well.  But it
will still work well with the secondary if you've already racked.

david.coombs at nist.gov, Gaithersburg MD


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 14:54:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "PWK Info. Sys. #6166" <TGEHRMANN at hop.qgraph.com>
Subject: enamel vs. Stainless

 So here goes my first post.  I have a choice between two pots to boil my
 wort with.  One is Stainless steel but has a very thin bottom.  The other
 is an enamel pot with a much heavier bottom.  Both would cost me about the
 same and both are about the same size(20 quart ss and 22 quart enamel).
 
 So what is the consensus of the net?  I need to get a good(well, ok good and
 cheap) pot as I have been borrowing one from a neighbor and I can't keep
 doing that!
 
 Sorry, no fancy way of signing my name yet.
 Tom Gehrmann
 Sussex, WI


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 16:26:40 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: B-Brite

Message:
I feel kind of stupid asking but what is B-Brite and where can I get 
it?  I tried several homebrew stores and drew a blank.
 
I'm sure private E-mail is fine.
TIA

Matt
Montreal


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:53:36 -0700
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: Style Guidelines on the 'net

I've noticed a few posts requesting a source for the AHA style guidelines on
the 'net, so I put them up.

You can get a copy of the 1995 Category descriptions by e-mail by sending
e-mail to info at aob.org containing the key word "STYLES" somewhere in the
message.  The 1995 National Homebrew Competition rules are also available by
using the keyword "RULES".  Please remember that info at aob.org is automated and
"real people" don't usually read messages sent to info at aob.org.

Hopefully the style guidelines and rules will also be available on the AOB's
web site (http://www.aob.org/aob) by the time this message gets distributed.

If anyone would like to see any of our other free information at either
http://www.aob.org/aob or info at aob.org, please let me know

 - shawn

Shawn Steele
Information Systems Administrator     (303) 447-0816 x 118   (voice)
Association of Brewers                (303) 447-2825         (fax)
736 Pearl Street                      shawn at aob.org          (e-mail)
PO Box 1679                           info at aob.org           (aob info)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679               http://www.aob.org/aob (www)

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 18:25:20 -0600
From: jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu (Jeffrey M. Collins)
Subject: Guinness and that elusive sour taste

I noticed there's been some discussion about that little sour taste in 
Guinness.  Some folks mentioned reading that this taste comes from the 
addition of 3% soured beer, but couldn't remember where.  

Check out Papazian's Toad Spit Stout recipe in the Betterbrew section of the 
New Complete Joy of Homebrewing.

- ----------------------------
Jeffrey M. Collins             Tri rudai faoin ol: e ol,
jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu     e iompair, agus e ioc.

University of Wisconsin        Three things about the drink: to
Medical School                 drink it, to hold it, and to pay for it.  
                                  -- Old Irish Saying


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:26:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Paul Murray <pmurray at cltr.uq.oz.au>
Subject: Burtonisation/Isinglass


Jim Busch writes -  
> Domenick says:
> 
> <While responding to Jeff Stampes kind offer of compiling water chemistry
> <information I realized that I was missing an important parameter in my
> <quest for a Fuller's ESB clone.
> 
> <If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the 
> <actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style 
> <ales, please respond by private email.
> 
> Fullers is located in Chiswick, London, not in the Burton area.

Fuller's is indeed in Chiswick, but like almost all (or maybe even all) 
British brewers they "Burtonise" their water.  The idea is to treat the 
water in such a way as to duplicate the excellent brewing (for pale 
ale/bitter) water of Burton on Trent.  The values Domenick seeks would 
therfore presumably be the same for all Burton _style_ ales i.e. for all 
English Bitters.  A good place to look is David Line's "Big Book of 
Brewing" or Graham Wheeler's "CAMRA Guide to Home Brewing".  Line's book 
is particularly useful in that it has a table which allows you to cross 
reference your local water make up against the style of beer you are 
making to see what treatment if any is necessary.  In Brisbane, 
Castlemaine Breweries have an excellent source of soft water which 
appears to be very similar to that of Pils.  They make lager (which they 
call XXXX Bitter Ale to confuse us foreigners) but they Burtonise the 
water. They single step infusion mash using quite highly modified two row 
from what I have been told, then they chill filter it (to avoid lengthy 
lagering) and ferment with a lager yeast.  So it would appear that water 
treatment depends on your mashing method rather than on the style you are 
aiming for. Stout could be an exception though?
The same post from Jim contained an excellent description of the process 
of preparing isinglass finings.  Jim's version has the advantage over 
that of Wheeler in that it does not require that you burn out the motor 
of your food processor every time you brew.  If you think burnt stove 
tops are inconducive to domestic bliss, try running the blender on full 
speed for an hour :-)

But Domenick says - 

> Since Isinglass is basically expensive gelatin (collagen) two questions
> come to mind.  Why the extensive preparation of Isinglass?  Given a good
> reason for the extensive preparation of Isinglass should it be done for
> run-of-the-mill gelatin as well?

Isinglass clears yeast because it has the opposite charge to yeast.  They 
therefore attract one another and settle out on the bottom. Auxilliary 
finings have the opposite charge and do the same job on protein.  
Gelatine is sticky and works with everything.  I'm sure someone who 
understands chemistry will explain why that is wrong?  The point is not why 
not treat gelatine this way, but rather why bother with isinglass?  The 
UK beer trade uses it because it has the advantage that it will work a 
few times before it gets "tired".  So when you have unfiltered beer going 
from the brewery to a distributor (usually a bigger brewery), to a depot, 
onto a dray, into a cellar, and then onto stillage, isinglass works 
better than other finings.  For home use it is unnecessary, unless you 
think you will be moving your cask around a lot.  

David Draper writes - 

> Jim Cave describes the preparation of isinglass.  Surely it is available
> as a pre-made gel?  Even if it is more expensive that way (as it
> undoubtedly would be) it would be worth it.  Again, my only use of it was
> while in the UK, and I bought couple-hundred ml bottles of premade gel,
> which was enough for about 3 batches if memory serves.  One simply
> withdrew a half-cup or so of the beer to be fined (I always did it in
> secondary), added isinglass *slowly* so that mixing would be thorough, and
> then put this back into the beer.  I would usually rock the secondary back
> and forth to mix.  3-4 days later the beer was usually pretty clear.

Or if you live in the UK and are (for some reason) set on using the 
stuff, get to know as many cellarpersons from local pubs as possible.  
Many pubs have isinglass which they will let you have half a pint of for 
free (especially if you are a regular and get on well with them).  The 
reason for this being that some pubs get their beer "green" and fine it 
themselves. 

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Date:     Wed, 15 Feb 95 20:28:23 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  triple beam balance


     Well, this not exactly brewing related but I recently acquired a triple 
beam balance that is missing the 10 gm weight/slide.  Is there some lab rat out 
there that might be willing to help me/tell me how to fashion a replacement.  
I'm sure it is not as simple as just creating a perfect 10 gm widget and 
hanging it from the beam.  If I can obtain a 10 gm calibration weight (I think 
they are called standards, but I am reaching WAY back) place it on the plate 
and then shave metal from this replacementt slide to obtain a balance, would 
that be correct?  Private e-mail would be the best, since I doubt there is much 
interest in repairing old scales.  Couldn't find alt.sci.oldscales in usenet.

Steve
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                            The Alabama Outlaw

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Date:         Thu, 16 Feb 95 01:04:33 EST
From: RPMTPLHS at URIACC.URI.EDU
Subject:       Re:automated brewing...valves

In response to Dave's question re a source of valves for automated brewing, eve
ry discarded washing machine in America, just about , can supply you with two w
orking  110 volt lo-amp solenoid valves (hot and cold). one end is standard
 garden hose male fitting and the other can be adapted to hose clamp type fitti
ng. A little creative adaptation and you could be home free.  Of course you can
't be squeamish about raiding the sidewalk resources on trash day! For a part-
 icular southern European flavor, try on of the Fall River discards!

Rich Poirier
Smithfield, RI

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 00:26:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Isinglass Preparation

> >      There has been some discussion about the correct use of Isinglass. 
> >Isinglass is a very good fining and I believe that it is the best one to 
> >use in cask-conditioned ales.  It does, however, require some additional 
> >preparation which includes:  rehydration, addition of acid blend, use of 
> >a blender, and refrigeration.  Apparently, if the temperature of Isinglass 
> >exceeds 20 C it will become inactive. Also, I have found that if it is 
> >frozen, it will also become inactive.  
> >
> > ... Methods various people including Jim prepare Isinglass ...
> >
> 
> Since Isinglass is basically expensive gelatin (collagen) two questions
> come to mind.  Why the extensive preparation of Isinglass?  Given a good
> reason for the extensive preparation of Isinglass should it be done for
> run-of-the-mill gelatin as well?
> 

I wasnt aware that *any* preparation had to be done to isinglass.  Ive 
been using the stuff for at least 2 years now, the only preparation I do 
is when making my priming soluition.  As for the 20C thing, im not sure 
thats entirely true either.  Ive been adding my isinglass with my priming 
soluition when boiling it before adding it to the beer.   Ive always 
ended up with crystal clear beer.  I have used irish moss in the boil, 
but usualy end up adding isinglass at bottle time anyhow to clear the 
beer up further.  Irish moss however does do an excellent job at helping 
to settle out the boil before transfering to the primary.  

Well thats my experience.  Ive boiled it, and done 0 preparation 
otherwise.  The beers comming out clear, so it must be working.  Is there 
some other method of using this stuff that maybe improves its efficency?

Robert

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 07:23:23 EST
From: "Patrick G. Babcock" <usfmchql at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Zymomonas and The New Basement Blues...                          

*** Resending note of 02/16/95 07:14
To: INTERNET--IBMMAIL  Internet Addresses
* Man's mind, stretched by a new idea, never goes back to its *
* original dimension.                 - Oliver Wendell Holmes *
Subject: Zymomonas and The New Basement Blues...

Here's one for the collective:

Miller talks of Zymomonas, a bacteria that dwells in the soil and pesters
breweries having new construction in The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing
page 180. Fix speaks of them in Principles of Brewing Science on page 202. My
question is this: How long before one can say an area is safe to brew in? Is
infection via Zymomonas worthy of worry?

A friend of mine has just moved into a newly built house (newly dug basement)
and want to take up homebrewing. He had heard of these buggers, and posed the
same questions to me; rendering me speechless. My references are useless to me
here. I can find reference to the guilty beastie, but can find no reference to
its longevity.

Any experiential comments would be greatly appreciated!

TIA, and regards all around!
Patrick G. Babcock
USFMCHQL at IBMMAIL
(313)33-73657 (V)
(313)59-42328 (F)


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:41:36 -0800
From: PSG at ix.netcom.com (Paul Gibson)
Subject: Fass Frisch Party-Star Question

Greetings, 

I have my first batch in the primary fermenter and have started 
wondering where to put the finished product! I would like to use some 
sort of kegging system, but, being a beginner, don't want to buy a 
second refrigerator, etc. right now. I have seen the Party-Star de Luxe 
with CO2 pressure regulator, and it seems like what I'm after. Only one 
problem -- I don't have a 15" high shelf in my refrig. and don't want to 
waste the space by moveing a shelf for one item.

Has anyone had any experience/luck modifying the dip tube so the 
mini-keg will lay on its side? It looks like the dip tube attaches by 
straight pipe threads with an O-ring seal (metric I suppose, I haven't 
gaged it yet). I'm assuming that what ever solution I come up with will 
have to account for the small hole drilled through the dip tube where it 
will not be submerged. I guess this is to allow some CO2 to mix in as 
the beer is dispensed.

Right now I am thinking of cutting the end of the dip tube off and 
keeping just the part that attaches to the tapper. I would then find a 
piece of heat-formable,food-grade plastic tubing that would slip over 
the stub of the original tube and seal it with Aquarium grade silicon 
caulk. It would be formed as follows:

             _________________________________
            /       _  __ Small hole at       \
            \      / \    top of tube.        / <- Keg
            /     /   \                       \
       /    \    /     \                      /
      /=========/       \                     \
     /      /            \                    /
            \             \                   \
            /______________\__________________/
        
Anyone with a different/better idea, please let me know!

Thanks
Paul Gibson


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 08:09:13 CST
From: Ray Louvier <rcl at ep130.wg2.waii.com>
Subject: Partial Mash Recipe's

Hello, this is my first post to HBD and I would like to say that the 
information I have been reading has been great. I am just starting to get into 
partial mash recipe's and would appreciate any decent recipe's for IPA's, 
Porters, and a decent clone for Pete's Wicked Ale. Thanks again for your time. 
Private e-mail or post is fine.


Regards,
Ray Louvier


 

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Date:          Thu, 16 Feb 1995 08:28:45 CST
From: "Karl F. Lutzen" <LUTZEN at physics.umr.edu>
Subject:       Paddles, pots and other wonderful stuff!

I have been using a wooden stirring paddle which is made from hardwood
and I would have to guess it to be some type of hard maple. I is 30 inches
long and cost $10.00.  Prior to using it in a brew, I conditioned it by
placing it in my new copper brewpot which had a boiling vinegar and water
solution in it to condition the brewpot.  After brewing, a quick rinse 
and it looks exactly as when I got it.  No discolorations. As far as I 
can tell, it imparts no flavor to my brews, but I don't brew exceptionally 
light beers anyway, so how will I know?


I found the paddle it in the most unusual catalog of hard to find items,
the Cumberland General Store catalog. This catalog is great!  You want a
copper pot for brewing? They have 'em in 10, 20, and 40 gallon sizes (be
prepared for sticker shock).  Among other things, they carry fruit
choppers and presses, oak and basswood barrels, in 5 to 30 gallon sizes 
(paraffin lined), or charred oak barrels in 1, 2, and 5 gallons sizes, 
stone mills, and about every piece of blacksmith equipment imaginable.
The even have brewing supplies!  The catalog is over 280 pages of good 
stuff!  And as the catalog says: "Goods in endless variety for man and 
beast."

Their address is:

        Cumberland General Store
        Route 3
        Crossville, TN  38555
        (800) 334-4640
        (615) 484-8481 in Tennessee

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with the store other than being a very 
impressed, and satisfied customer!        

============================================================================
Karl F. Lutzen         | lutzen at physics.umr.edu         (314) 341-6317
University of Missouri |
Physics Dept.          | Home Page URL: http://www.physics.umr.edu/~lutzen
Rolla, MO 65401        |
=============================================================================

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:28:52 -0500 (EST)
From: david lawrence shea <dshea at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: Yeast Genecide (bonehead move)/Carbonation of Wyeast London ESB

Steve asked about whether his yeasties were killed after adding boiling 
wort to the starter.  Unfortunately they were indeed annihilated so it is 
good that you added some fresh yeast to the starter.  I myself have done 
this very same "bonehead" mistake, in fact, it was when I was brewing the 
same SNPA recipe.  Perhaps the recipe is cursed <g>.

******************

I remember a recent discussion about the decreased carbonation using the 
Wyeast Londond ESB yeast on r.c.b. and of course I didn't pay much 
attention to it (I always seem to be a few weeks behind).  Now I wished 
that I did.  I have used this yeast twice and both times the carbonation 
was on the low side.  The beers were excellent but less carbonated.  Has 
anybody here had the same experience?  Also, is the yeast that many of 
the british bitter and pale ale producers use the reason why many of the 
english beers are less carbonated?

David L. Shea
Indiana University
dshea at ucs.indiana.edu


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:49:26 -0500
From: stevens at stsci.edu (Mark A. Stevens)
Subject: Extract & gravity

In HBD #1659, Mel Martinez discussed why a "rule of thumb" on hitting
target gravities with extracts that was in the recipe formulation 
chapter of "Homebrew Favorites" doesn't work well.

I'll take the blame on that one. That rule of thumb should never
have made it into print. Although I *DO* use it for ballpark
estimates, I know that it is WAY overoptimistic on the extract
levels, so when I use it, I use it for dry extract and round
down by quite a lot.

As Al pointed out, a more reasonable extraction assumption is
42 points, but for seat of the pants, figuring on the spot in
a shop while yanking things off the shelf, I'm not gonna sit
there calculating out multiples like that. ;-)

It should also be pointed out that EVERY rule of thumb for figuring
gravities from extracts is going to be flawed. The differences
between manufacturers and varieties is just too elusive. (See
the Winter 94 issue of "Zymurgy" for some figures for several
different types of dry and syrup.)

Anyway, thanks Mel, for pointing that out. I SWEAR I won't be
that lazy next time (red pen is out!)

As for your comment about the Bantry Bay Irish Red Ale, I'm not
so sure that it's impossible for that recipe to hit a 1048
gravity. This is one of Ray Taylor's recipes, so maybe if he's
reading this, he can jump in with some insight on this recipe.

Cheers!
- ---Mark Stevens
   stevens at stsci.edu


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:55:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE:paddles

Another idea when scaling up brew length and looking for a stirring
implement:  get a slab of red oak and cut it into a paddle that has the
blade size and handle size you want.  Mine is about 6" wide blade that
I use in a 2 foot wide mash tun.  Works great.
- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 10:15:57 EST
From: "I see them through a crystal haze, And hear them bouncing round the room 16-Feb-1995 1010 -0500" <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: GOTT cooler mashing and manifold design

>Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 11:17:44 EST
>From: epeters at edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com (Eric Peters (919) 405-3675)
>Subject: Stirring Utensils, Gott Cooler Manifold

[...]

>We brew 10 gallon batches and mash in a Gott cooler like yours.
>I designed a slotted 1/2" rigid copper manifold that uses four
>parallel pipes joined with tees and elbows to form a square.
>		    L---------L
>		    |         |
>		    T---------T
>		    |         T-> Output through ball valve.
>		    T---------T
>		    |         |
>		    L---------L


i have a similar design.  i used 1/2" copper tubing, bent it in a circle,
and used compression fittings to interface it to the ball valve:


             /------\
             |      |
faces down-->T      C--C-G-BV--   C=compression fitting, G=GOTT wall, 
             |      |             BV=ball valve which fits snuggly in GOTT
             \------/

i've done
2 batches so far with it and had no problems.  i drilled lots of 9/64" holes
in the pipe which face down during mashing.  on the end of the pipe opposite
the ball valve, i use a T to keep the manifold about 1" off the bottom of
the GOTT.  simple to make, about 18 bucks in cost.  good bye to the zapap
lautertun!

jc

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 11:03:39 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: thermometers, klutz-wise

     Just broke my third glass thermometer since last September--a standard 
     grocery-store "candy" cooking thermometer. At $3.95 each, this isn't 
     the end of the world, but I'm wondering if there's something sturdier 
     available at a reasonable price. (Note: I also have one of the 
     bi-metal candy thermometers, but it's too slow & will stick & then go 
     "dooiing" & jump up 25 degrees, so don't recommend one of those to 
     me.)
     
     While I'm on, let me sing the praises of Wyeast 1098 at low temps. 
     It's been working great at 52 to 58 degrees F--so neat, so clean, so 
     dry.

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 12:39:02 -0500
From: "Thomas Aylesworth" <t_aylesworth at lfs.loral.com>
Subject: Re: First All-Grain

I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my questions about
my first all-grain batch.  It's almost done fermenting, and I plan to
bottle it on Sunday.  For those who might be interested, I'll briefly
summarize some of the responses I received:

> - Water treatment

Before even getting any responses on this, I did what I should have
done a while ago and called the City of Manassas to get a water
analysis.  It was very easy and the chemist I talked to turned out
to be a homebrewer as well.  Manassas gets its water from a lake and
is very soft, but very high in chlorine.  I've heard of three ways to
get rid of the chlorine: 1) continue boiling as I have been (not a
big deal, but wastes some time the night before); 2) let the chlorine
naturally gas out by sitting (how long does this take?); 3) get a
carbon filter for the faucet.  I also have a friend who has some fish
and was telling me about some product he adds to water to dechlorinate
it before putting it in his fish tank.  Since I've never heard of
using such a thing for brewing, I assume it is probably doing something
that is not desirable.  But, if anyone knows what this stuff is and
how it works, I'd be interested in knowing.

The only other water treatment I need is to boost the calcium content
which is a mere 7 ppm.  So, I plan to add some gypsum to my water
before the mash to boost it into the 50 ppm range.

> - Protein rest

No clear consensus here, but the only real good reason I heard for
doing it with Klages is to prevent chill haze.  Since, as Jim Busch
pointed out, chill haze doesn't affect taste, I will concentrate on
other aspects of brewing for the moment, and if I have problems with
chill haze, start doing protein rests later.

> - Sparge 

Everone recommended just checking the pH during the sparge to make sure
it didn't get above 6.  Most recommended acidifying it to the 5.6-5.8
range to make sure it wouldn't get above there.  The general consensus
seemed to be that pH mattered more than temperature.

As for sparge time, as long as I continue to get the sort of efficiency
(30 pt/lb/gal) I got in this last batch, I won't worry about it.

> - Boilers

Only one other person responded and said they also use two 5 gallon 
boilers rather than an 8+ gallon one.  He claims it works great.  The
only thing I noticed about it is that I lost more water during the
boil than I expected, I suppose as a result of the increased surface
area.  Not a big deal - next time I'll boil slightly more wort.

> - Efficiency

Apparently, everyone here measures efficiency at a different point in
the process!  :-)

Jim Dipalma says:

>>Well, sorry for such a long post and for rehashing questions
>
> IMHO, posts like these that describe initial all grain brewing experiences
> are very useful, as there must be a lot of interested people reading who are
> considering trying their hand. Hopefully, these discussions help de-mystify
> the process, and encourage these brewers to take the plunge.

I hope so.  I have to admit that reading the HBD for the past year, and
finally joining the local homebrew club (BURP), is what got me to 
finally "take the plunge".  It really isn't difficult at all, I think
the hardest part was trying to decide what sort of mashing and lautering
equipment to get!  Oh, the one piece of equipment I highly recommend to
anyone considering all-grain (or even partial mashes) is a good fast-
acting thermometer.  The so-called "wine and candymaking" thermometer I
used this past time was far too slow to be useful.  I just got a good
lab thermometer that only cost $7 and gets to the right temperature in
seconds.

Thanks again for the help,

Tom


- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Aylesworth                     |  t_aylesworth at lfs.loral.com
Space Processor Software Engineering  |  
Loral Federal Systems, Manassas, VA   |  (703) 367-6171


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:00:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Wheeler on "Dropping"

	Here is what Wheeler says about Dropping (Wheeler and Protz. 1993. Brew
your own real ale at home. ISBN: 1-85249-113-2

"After the ale has been fermenting for a couple of days, when it has attenuated
to about half of the original gravity.....	
"The beer should be syphoned from one container to another, taking 
care to leave as much yeast and sediment as possible behind in the primary
vessel and taking care to admit the minimum of air into solution; although 
some air may be beneficial for certain strains of yeast. This can be achieved
by using a syphon tube, the outlet of which should always be kept submerged
under the transferred beer......The quality of the ale is much improved by
dropping." 

	So....Wheeler says _not_ to admit a lot of air during dropping but
don't be too anal about it!

    Thanks to Jim Busch for further information on Issinglass use!  My comments
on temperature were to instruct the user not to let the Issinglass get abouve
20 C when fining, as its properties are lost.  Otherwise, you'll want to 
keep it in the 'fridge when storing.  The desireable qualities of real ale 
dictate that you will want to keep it warmer than 10 C if you are fining and
drinking the beer.

			Jim Cave

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 10:32:17 PST
From: RHENDRY at MFOR01.FOR.GOV.BC.CA
Subject: Signup?

Dear Sir/Madam;
How does one sign up to this service? I tried sending a note to:
Brew-request@ expo.lcs.mit.edu but never got any return mail. Help...

Regards,
Russ Hendry R.P.F.,  R.O. Planning
In Sunny Invermere B.C. (604)342-4225  fax:342-7016(PC-Direct)
Inet: RHENDRY at MFOR01.FOR.GOV.BC.CA

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 06:34:00 -0800
From: pat.anderson at f52.n343.z1.com (Pat Anderson)
Subject: Gott


<From: Weirup at aol.com
 Subject: Gott cooler/all-grain setup>

 <all-grain brewing and I am in the process of getting together equipment.  I
 want to do my mashing and lautering in a 10 gal. Gott cooler that I already
 have.  I know that many people use this system and I have sort of seen one
 in  use.  But I'm not exactly sure on how to set this up.  If anyone could>
Good choice. Get a drum tap spigot and make a homemade EASYMASHER type drain.
Remove the push button drain.  You will see a 7/8" hole where the push
button drain was inside a larger circle (about 1") in the orange outer shell
of the Gott.  With a sharp knife, cut the orange layer of the outer shell
so the hole is about 1" and remove the insulation layer carefully.  The hole
has to be big enough to accommodate the drum tap spigot so the rubber gasket
can go right up against the white plastic inner liner.  The hole in the inner
liner has to be enlarged ever so slightly so the threaded part of the drum
tap spigot can go through it.  Then just snug up the plastic nut on the drum
tap spigot.

Next, get a 2" x 6" piece of stainless mesh screen.  Roll it up around some
3/8" flexible copper tubing (just as a form).  Crimp one end and fold it back
over on itself. Clamp the other end to a 6" piece of 3/8" copper tubing using
a little stainless hose clamp.  The copper tubing should have an "S" bend in
it so when one end is inserted inside the drum tap, the end with the rolled
screen can be rotated down to sit on the bottom of the Gott.  Get a drilled
stopper that fits the inside of the drum tap, and stick the end of the copper
tubing in it.  Insert this into the inside of the drum tap.  Put about a foot
of 3/8" siphon tube on the outside of the drum tap spigot so the wort won't
splash into your collection bucket (grant).  You now have the finest mash -
lauter setup known to homebrewing IMNSHO...



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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:02:18 -0700
From: reddy at qualcomm.com (Bob Eddy, ext. 5930)
Subject: Phalse Bottom or copper manifold?

Just a quick question.  I am getting ready to modify a 10-gallon Gott
cooler to use as a mash/lauter tun.  I'm planning to use a Phil's Sparger
on top, but can't decide whether to use a Phil's Phalse Bottom or a slotted
copper manifold in the bottom of the cooler.  I've heard pros and cons
about both approaches.  Since I'm planning to make a decision soon I'd be
interested in hearing opinions from y'all.  Which way should I go?



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Date: 16 Feb 1995 14:07:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606" <ELLSWORTH at bravo.otis.utc.com>
Subject: Getting pumped up!


hiya, 
 
Once again, I'm not contributing, just searching for 
information.... 
 
I recently put together an immersion chiller using 25 feet of 3/8
copper tubing. The problem is my water for cooling must come from
my well. The well is extremely shallow for this part of the
country, and as a result, water is in short supply. After running
some tests cooling down 5 gals of boiling water, i find that i
can not count on my system to produce more than 10 or 15 mins of
cool water. 
 
In the interest of conservation, i decided to fill the sink with
water, and several gallon size milk containers filled with frozen
water. Using some cheep plastic connecting hose, I hooked up a 12
volt bilge pump salvaged from the bottom of my fishing boat to
move the cold water through the cooler and return it to the sink. 
I have looked high and low for a better submersible pump that can
both handle the cold, and give me a sufficient pressure.  The
system works, but really lacks the necessary power to move a
reasonable amount of water. The result is, it takes over 40 mins
to cool the wort.
 
Anyone know of a source for a better, small, cheep pump? 
 
 -brian ellsworth. 
 

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 15:35:25 -0600
From: MHANSEN at ctdmc.pmeh.uiowa.edu
Subject:  1995 AHA style guidelines locations/Dunkelweizen

Fellow Brewers,

1995 style guidelines can be had from the Association of Brewers by
sending an E-mail to info at aob.org with the word STYLES in the body of
the E-mail. An auto magical reply will be sent. It is also available on the
web at http://www.aob.org/aob/aob.html/. Perhaps someone (me? help-
calling Stephen Hansen!) can also upload this to the Stanford archives.

1994 guidelines are still available on the web at the Brewery at
http://alpha.rollanet.org/ and on Spencer's beer page at
http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/beer/. Unfortunately, for the
web-impaired (as I am), I received no info on other on-line locations.

 In perusing the guidelines for one of my favorite styles, dunkelweizen,
the guidelines say "roasted malt and chocolate-like flavors evident". I can
see the chocolate, but roasted?  This implies the use of black patent malt
or (Gasp! - Rheinheitsgebot) roasted barley. There ain't no way, no how
I'm putting either of these in a weizen. (A weizen-stout, yeah, right).
Could this be an error meant to be "toasted" instead? This implies to me
the use of munich or vienna malt which seems to be much more
appropriate for the style. Comments anyone?

Brew on my friends,
Mike  (michael-d-hansen at uiowa.edu) 

PS - Thanks to Shawn Steele and Mark Stevens for the on-line locations
and to Brian Walter and etmtvop at crosby.etm.ericcson.se (no name
given) for actually sending me the guidelines.  


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 16:48:39 EST
From: scox at factset.com (Sean C. Cox)
Subject: Banana aroma

Hi all,

	the last couple batches I've brewed have been plagued with a very
noticable "banana" smell that seems to develop after about a week in the 
primary.  Usually I "stop and smell the brew" frequently after I see activity
in the airlock (I love the smell), and after 5-7 days I've been getting this
increasingly noticable banana smell that never goes away, even with a few
weeks aging.
	I'm an extract brewer and have been brewing for several years, so I'm
fairly sure that my procedure is reasonable since this just started happening
for the past few batches.  The recipes have been dark beers, that have been
brewed in very soft water (although one had added gypsum). I generally cool
overnight and pitch yeast that was started the night before (again, my 
standard procedure of several years).  I usually aerate the water in the 
primary by using a shower-nozzle to add the water which acheives a nice foam
on it, so I don't expect it's under aerated.
	Anyone have any ideas?

	--Sean, not-so-anxiously-awaiting a banana stout. :-/

=-=-= Sean Cox          =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= FactSet Data Systems =-=-=
=-=-= scox at factset.com  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 1 Greenwich Plaza    =-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Greenwich, CT 06830  =-=-=

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 20:11:45 PST
From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put)
Subject: Anderson Valley Yeast

>From "Don" Put:

Hello all,

I recently cultured the yeast from a bottle of Anderson Valley's "Barney
Flats Oatmeal Stout."  Has anyone used this yeast?  Does anyone know the
origins of this yeast?  

don
(dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu)


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 21:44:15 -0800
From: Gregory J Egle <DSGJE at acad2.alaska.edu>
Subject: Lesson Plan

I'm trying to organize a homebrewing class at our local community 
college. Is there anyone out there who might have a lesson plan
or outline from another class they wouldn't mind sharing. If anyone
can help out I'd really appreciate it. Thanks,
                  Gregory Egle



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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:10:08 +0100
From: Fredrik.Stahl at mathdept.umu.se (Fredrik Stahl)
Subject: IBU levels


Regarding Richard Webb's reply to George's measured IBU numbers, I thought
I would tell you what I get from my calculations. I get values about 2
steps lower than Richard does for Rager's and Garetz' utilization tables,
but I guess that could come from interpretation of the tables. Hardly
significant since they are rough estimates anyway. However, the interesting
point is that with Tinseth's utilization I get 27.2 for the pilsner
(measured 25.6) and 33.4 for the California common (measured 35.3). I find
this quite acceptable so I think I'll stick to Tinseth's numbers until the
result of the research of him and Manning are revealed. (Might be wrong for
higher gravities though, haven't tried that).

/Fredrik.Stahl at mathdept.umu.se



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1661, 02/18/95