FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Assessment of AHA NHC Transcripts requested (Sean Lamb)
  Testing Starters. (Erik Speckman)
  CORONA Beer Recipe needed (Johnny B. Andrews)
  Grants & HSA/starter testing/"cheep" pumps/dryhopping/flocculation & aeration (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Overhopped Beer (Rafael C. Camarota / SJC Design Engineer )
  Extended Mashes/Dr. Lewis/Dixie and Moosehead/HSA (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  fining question (/DD.ID=MSMHRN01.RADAMS01/G=RICHARD/S=ADAMS/)
  RIMS motor speed control (todd boyce)
  Thermometers/Starters/IBU (Geoff Scott)
  CANCEL SUB TO HOMEBREW DIGEST (DMFog)
  Dropping and Diacetyl (Paul Murray)
  Re: Isinglass ("Robert W. Mech")
  Kegging principles (Schwab_Bryan)
  biscuit/WY1007 (Kevin Emery DSN 584-2900  )
  Rogue-n-Berry; wild yeast (HOMEBRE973)
  chilling 2 pot boils (Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2)
  Brew Legal in Mississipp (James Spence/AHA/BJCP)
  Holly Bananas Batman! (molloy)
  How to Brew a Mild ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Belgian Candi Sugar ("Sieja, Edward M")
  Gott digest confessions (Christopher P. Weirup)
  source help (Gordon.Mckeever)
  Re-yeasting lager. (DUBOVIK)
  Auto-Mash (Matt_K)
  Yeast/Fermentation problems (Doug Flagg)



******************************************************************
* NEW POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:10:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sean Lamb <SLAMB at lrlmccer.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Assessment of AHA NHC Transcripts requested

I'm planning on not renewing my membership in the AHA when it expires 
this summer.  I'd like to take advantage of member discounts on 
any of the publications that they offer, prior to letting my 
membership lapse, given that the publications will make a 
worthwhile addition to my brewing library.  

I would like to request that anyone who has purchased 
any of the publications offered by Brewer's Publications provide me 
with an asessment of their worth.  I am particularily interested in 
opnions on the AHA National Hombrew Conference transcripts.

If you e-mail me, and I get enough responses, I'll post a summary.

TIA
Sean Lamb  --   slamb at lrlmccer.jsc.nasa.gov -- Houston, TX

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:19:26 -0800
From: especkma at reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: Testing Starters.

In HBD#1664 Keith Royster writes about a method to test starter activity:

>I called the advise line of my local
>supply store and explained that I wasn't sure if my yeast starter was
>active or not.  They instructed me to take a pinch of sugar (table
>sugar is fine) and drop it into the starter bottle.  If the yeast are
>active in sufficient quantities, they will attack the sugar
>agressively, almost consuming it all before it hits the bottom of the
>bottle.  The result will be a column of CO2 bubbles rising quickly to
>the surface of the wort.  It is actually quite amazing to watch!

Let's just say that I am dubious.  I think it is much more likely that the
column of CO2 bubbles you see with this method is caused by outgassing of
disolved CO2 triggered by the sugar than by the yeast rapidly metabolizing
the sugar.  You can do the same thing with a Sprite and it is to clear to
have a heathy yeast population

It still gives some indication that your starter was active recently but
swirling the starter bottle around would probably work just as well.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:30:47 EST
From: Johnny B. Andrews <jba at unx.sas.com>
Subject: CORONA Beer Recipe needed

I am a new home-brewer, having only one batch under my belt, and am trying to
clone CORONA Mexican Cerveza.  Why would you want to do that, you say?
For me the first order of business in this home-brewing deal is to sell my wife 
on the idea - that means showing her that I can make a CORONA Beer.  Can anyone 
offer a recipe for making this beer?  My first attempt was drinkable but lacked 
flavor and did not have the characteristics of a CORONA.  I used the following 
in my first batch:

 - WYEAST #2308 Munich lager liquid yeast
 - 1 lb. 20 lovabond 6-row caramel crystal malt (steeped 30 min. in boil)
 - 44 oz. Dutch Light Dry Malt
 - 1 3.3 lb. packet of light malt extract
 - 1 3.3 lb. packet of rice extract
 - 1 tsp. irish moss
 - 1 oz. 4.9 Aplpha Tettenang Bittering hops pellets (2/3 at start of boil, 
	1/3 15 minutes from end)
 - 1 oz. 3.9 Alpha Saaz Finishing Hops pellets (5 minutes from end of boil)
 - 1 oz.fining gelatin (added in secondary fermentation stage)
 - 3/4 cup corn sugar (for priming)

I guess that I probably should have used one of the Czech. yeasts.  The two
that are immediately available to me are #2124 (Czech. traditioal Saaz, clean, 
malty), and #2278 (Czech. Pils Yeast, Classic dry finish with rich maltiness).
Does anyone know which of these more closely matches the charactistics of a
CORONA or if there is another I would be better off using?

When I say that this batch lacked flavor, the main thing that it lacked was the
"bite" on the back of your tongue that you typically associate with beer.  Can
anyone speculate what I might have done wrong?  The only lead I have so far is
that I have heard that fining gelatin may remove some flavor from beer.

If nobody has a tried and true recipe can anyone at least offer suggestions as
to what I might change in the above recipe to make my beer more like a CORONA?

 -Johnny                                              E-MAIL: jba at unx.sas.com

- --
*============================================================================*
Johnny B. Andrews 			       E-MAIL:  jba at unx.sas.com
SAS Institute, Software Production Systems     MA-BELL: 919-677-8000 ext. 7546
"Dyin' ain't much of a livin' boy"            
 - The Outlaw, Jose Wales

Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Feb 95 13:32:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Grants & HSA/starter testing/"cheep" pumps/dryhopping/flocculation & aeration

Art writes:
>The hot wort flows
>into an open stainless bucket called a "gran-<something>" and from there is
>pumped into the boiler.  Much foaming occurs in this bucket.  The brewer on
>duty said HSA was not a concern, that's just the way the system was
>designed and that their Denver location uses a completely closed system. 

That's a "grant" and indeed some amount of HSA does occur.  There are many
breweries that have a similar device (I believe that Anchor is one and I've
seen them in Jackson's books -- the ones I've seen in Jackson's books are
all shiny brass, have a number of "gooseneck"-like "fountains" each with a
valve -- take a look).  There is some amount of HSA that does occur and it
does affect the beer to some extent, however, one possible reason I can think
of why this apparatus still makes good beer is because quite a bit of steam
is produced, which displaces the some of the air surrounding the beer.  Then
again, taking Anchor beers for example, they are very different when they 
are fresh as compared to when they are only two weeks old.

HSA (Hot-Side Aeration), in addition to adding varying amounts of sherrylike
aromas, can provide oxygen for the later oxidation of other beer compounds,
including hop oils.  This is why as beer ages, it inevitably loses hop aroma.

***
Keith writes:
>>how can I tell if the starter is any good?  It has led a troubled 
>>life and I really do not trust it.  Is it as simple as smelling it, 
>>or should I take a taste of the 'beer' and see if it is bad?
>
>Smell and taste can't hurt.  However, I had a similar question 
>concerning a starter of mine.  I called the advise line of my local 
>supply store and explained that I wasn't sure if my yeast starter was 
>active or not.  They instructed me to take a pinch of sugar (table 
>sugar is fine) and drop it into the starter bottle.  If the yeast are 
>active in sufficient quantities, they will attack the sugar 
>agressively, almost consuming it all before it hits the bottom of the 
>bottle.  The result will be a column of CO2 bubbles rising quickly to 
>the surface of the wort.  It is actually quite amazing to watch!

Try the same with salt and you'll get the same result.  The sugar (or salt)
is dissolving, not being eaten, and is providing nucleation sites for CO2
to form bubbles and rise to the top.  This is merely a test for how much
CO2 is dissolved in the starter and not a measure of yeast activity.

***
Pier writes:
>Improvement" - type discount hardware store and picked up a small pump used
>to circulate water in those little garden fountains.  The price, as I

Careful... these may not be food grade and also may not be made to handle
hot liquids or sanitizers.  The short stay in the pump probably won't make
beer that will kill you, but it may impart plastic/rubber/phenolic flavours.
Jack Schmidling uses a water pump from an RV.  At least we know it's food
grade, but regarding handling hot liquids or bleach, I don't know what it's
life would be or whether the bleach would taint the pump and impart bad
flavours to the subsequent beer.

***
David asks about dryhopping.

You don't necessarily need a secondary to dryhop.  I often dryhop in the
primary and then go straight to bottling/kegging.  I also don't use a bag
of any sort, but I only use whole hops or plugs.  I used pellets once and
talked to a brewer last Sunday about all the problems he had racking a beer
dryhopped with pellets (although his beer did smell great!) and I feel that
it is much easier to dryhop with whole/plug hops since they float for the
most part.  I wait till the beer is virtually all fermented out and then
add between 1/2 and 2 ounces of hops per 5 gallons.  7 to 10 days later, I
rack to my bottling carboy/keg just using one of those orange-tip racking
canes.  Rarely are any of the petals sucked up and those are caught by
my filler valve during bottling.   I do lose a quart or two of beer, but
I feel it's worth it for the great aroma.

***
Kirk writes:
>In item 2), I see no connection between flocculation levels and oxygen
>depletion.  Well sure, a highly flocculant yeast will deplete the available
>local oxygen, and leave itself in a highly oxygen-depleted region.  However,
>given you initially oxygenate to some initial "sufficient" level, the needed
>oxygen is still in solution and only needs to be made available to the yeast
>by mixing the stew--getting the yeast dispersed into an oxygen-bearing 
>region of the liquid.

I don't have a direct answer, but can point to the methods at Tadcaster
Brewery (Samuel Smiths).  It seems to me that some kind of non-aerating,
mechanical device to rouse the yeast back into suspension would be employed
if aeration did not prove to be essential or at least beneficial to the
finished beer.  Instead, they still use a pump to spray fermenting beer
from the bottom of the Yorkshire stone squares up onto the yeast cake on top
causing an incredible amount of aeration.  I *speculate* that it may not
necessarily be an issue of aeration being essential for the *yeast*, but
rather essential for the *beer* (to produce it's characteristic, buttery
flavour).

By the way, this could be a very interesting topic at the Real Ale Fest...
I've heard that invitations to several British brewing luminaries have been
issued and I'm certain that Graham Wheeler is one of them.  I know that
Roger Protz has already said that he would attend unless it conflicts with
"What's Brewing" publishing deadlines.  Contact Dennis Davison for more info
on the RAF (ddavison at earth.execpc.com).

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 15:57:48 PST
From: rafe at lattice.com (Rafael C. Camarota / SJC Design Engineer )
Subject: Overhopped Beer

When it comes to hopping I think too much is always better
then too little.  The old saying that "the difference between
a bad hair cut and a good one is about 2 weeks" can be applied
to beer.  Home brewing sometimes requires waiting for the beer
to age to the proper taste for drinking.  I have found that a bitter
batch is wonderful with an additional 2-4 weeks aging at room temperature.
And remember beer dosen't age in the frigor cold storage.  It also seems
that the aged batchs are a little richer in taste, either because of the
hopping or the anticipation for the end product.


Rafe


Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Feb 95 09:20:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Extended Mashes/Dr. Lewis/Dixie and Moosehead/HSA

Robert writes:
>curiosity is why that these times are not sometimes longer.  I would 
>think that if for instance the mash time at 154 for 1 hour, was extended 
>to lets say 1.5 hours, you could increase your extract efficency.        

It will only if you have any starch left after an hour.  If your grind is
rather coarse and your pH is not in the mid 5's, you may benefit from
a longer saccharification rest.  Note also, that as with most reactions
temperature has a lot to do with how fast the conversion takes place.  If
everything is ideal, you can probably get complete conversion at 158F
in less than 20 minutes, but at 145F, it may take 30 or 40 minutes (I
usually do my amylase rest between 154F and 158F, so I have little data).

How can you increase your efficiency?  Check your pH, grind (too coarse
will give you poor conversion, too fine will give you problems laeutering)
and make sure you are sparging enough:

For last Saturday's batch, I used 8.5 pounds of DWC Munich, 0.5 pounds of
DWC Biscuit, 13 quarts of strike water, 8 quarts to get from protein rest
to saccharification and then had 5 gallons of sparge water on hand.  I
stopped after 8 gallons of runnings (leaving about a two gallons of runnings
in the laeuter tun) and boiled that down to 5.5 gallons of 1.052 wort.
Despite the fact that the final runnings were 1.012 (meaning I did leave
quite a bit of extract in the tun), that comes out to 31.8 points/lb/gallon.
Had I not been concerned about the additional boiling time to reduce the
additional gallon and taken 9 gallons of runnings, I probably would have
gotten 33 pts/lb/gal.

***
Jim writes (quoting someone paraphrasing Dr. Michael Lewis):
><What many American home brewers don't realize is just how low a
><temperature American pale malt needs for optimum fermentability
><and how high a temperature it needs for optimum extract.
>
>Key word: optimum.  We're homebrewers, not Budweiser.  Optimum to me is
>defined as acceptable results in a resonable time.  My time is more 
<snip>

Yes, but from everything that I've read, and perhaps this could be
confirmed/corrected by Dr. Fix and others (I noted a post from Dave at
Weihenstephan today), is that at the low end of the amylase rest (i.e.
148F or so), both alpha and beta amylase are active.  At the high end (i.e.
158F or so), beta amylase denatures quite quickly and only alpha amylase
is active.  Therefore, it does not make sense to me that one would have to
mash part of the time at the high end of the amylase range to get optimal
extract -- it should be available, given proper time, at any temperature
in the range.

Fermentability is a different issue.  What the heck is *optimum*
fermentability?  Obviously, Dr. Michael Lewis has been spending too
much time working with megabreweries... if I'm making a Wee Heavy, I
don't want a very fermentable wort -- my *Wee Heavy* optimal fermentability
is reached at a amylase rest done at 158F -- very dextrinous, *low*
fermentability.  As far as I'm concerned, Dr. Lewis's recipe is for
making gasahol, not beer.

><1.  Stir in enough hot water at around 70^ C. (approximately
><158^ - 160^ F.) to make a thick mash, so the temperature settles
><in between 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ F. - 140^ F.) Initial mash
><temperatures as low as 50^ C. (122^ F.) are acceptable.  Hold for
><20 - 30 minutes at this temperature.
>
>Do these numbers look like reality for any homebrewers?  If I dough in 
>at 160, my mash rests at 145, never below 140.  I also question the
>advice to mash between 131-140 from a beta rest/maltose rest, as beta
>amylase is most active between 140-149F, and survives into the low 

Depends on the thickness of the mash and the losses to the mash tun --
my 13 quarts of strike water were at 159F and when added to 9 pounds of
grain the temperature settled at 136F.  You're right, though... the
rest at 122F with well modified malt will result in a watery beer with
no body or head retention.

***
There have been a number of recipe requests for beers like Dixie and
Moosehead recently.  I'm pretty sure there are not many brewers on the HBD
who brew beers like this, so I don't think you'll get as many responses as
if you asked for a good IPA recipe.  I, personally, don't because these are
American/Canadian Light Lagers, and I really had my fill of these types
of beers before I discovered all the other 70+ styles.  Now, I brew
mostly ales and if I brew the occasional lager, it will be something
that has more noble origins: Bohemian Pilsners, Traditional Bocks, 
Doppelbocks, etc., not the corn- or rice-based beers that were our *only*
choice ten years ago.

I once tasted a very good copy of Budweiser at a club meeting.  Basically
the recipe was 4# of Alexanders extract, 2# of rice syrup, 3/4 ounce of 5%AA
Tettnanger boiled 60 min and fermented with Wyeast #1007 (Pilsen -- actually
St. Louis!) yeast at 50F for a couple of months.  You can modify this into
a Canadian or corn-based American lager by subsituting 1.75# of corn sugar
for the rice syrup, change the yeast and maybe increase the hops to 1 to 1.25
ounces.  Check out the most recent (or maybe the one previous) issue of
Zymurgy -- there is a review of some American Light Lager Kits by Homebrewer
of the Year (1992?) Steve Daniel.  I've tasted Steve's allgrain American Light
Lagers and boy can he brew quality beer!  You can certainly trust his opinion
of those kits and the quality of what he made from them.

***
Dave writes:
>Can oxidation due to HSA produce flavors etc that don't show up right
>away?  If so that could explain what I observed.

Yes.  If you read Dr. Fix's Principles of Brewing Science, there's a lot
more detail on this, but the way that I understand it is that the oxygen
gets bound up in (primarily) the melanoidins in the beer and then, after
time, is "stolen away" by other compounds which result in "stale" flavours
and aromas.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date:  Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:43:40 -0500
From: /DD.ID=MSMHRN01.RADAMS01/G=RICHARD/S=ADAMS/ at EDS.DIAMONDNET.sprint.com
Subject:  fining question

 
Oh Collective Wisdom:
 
I brewed a batch of Pale Ale (Feb Brew Aley) 1.5 weeks ago and forgot to add
my Irish Moss.  Damn!  Ok, I thought, I'll just have to do my best at
racking time (was this the best I could hope for?).  Now, I realize that I
missed out on separating particular hot break produced during the boil, but
I did chill and hop-back.  Here is what I did when racking from primary
plastic (5 days) to secondary glass (for 3-4 weeks).
 
Per Miller, I added 1 tsp Knox Unflavored Gelatin to .5 cup cold water and
allowed to "swell". It does indeed.  Slowly heated mixture while stirring
until dissolved (not boiled).  I poured that warm liquid into bottom of just
sanitized empty carboy and then racked onto that.  I had a little overfill,
so I pulled some off and took a gravity - I have never taken gravities at
racking -- it will be in glass for a couple weeks anyway... (s.g. 1.008
already).  Airlocked it and set it free.
 
Finally, the question.  Have I done something that will adsorb the left-over
yeast so much that I may need to repitch with a priming yeast?  Or, will
there still be enough suspended to finish correctly?
 
Thanks in advance; no hurry, I've got a couple weeks.
 
Rick Adamson
BeerDick, Brewer, not a Patriot but rather, a Steelers Fan !
 
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:36:39 -0700 (MST)
From: todd boyce <tboyce at bohemia.metronet.org>
Subject: RIMS motor speed control

	Hi all Hbrewers
I'm building my RIMS system and have bought a magnetic drive motor from
Grainger, part #1p677a. I'd like to be able to control the speed of the
reciculation. This motor is capable of 6 gal. per minute at 6ft. head.
My question is can I use a incandesant light dimmer in line from the plug
to the motor? (115AC at 60Hz the motor draws 1.4 amps 108Watts). Graingers
also sells a AC/DC motor speed controller, but its a bit more expensive
than a standard dimmer. I'm not sure of the guts of standard dimmer. Also
I don't wan't to build a pulsed gate controlled triac setup. Will a
dimmer work and not dammage my motor?

Calling any homebrewing electricians. Or experianced RIMS users.

Todd B
tboyce at bohemia.metronet.org



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 00:00:47 -0500
From: gscott at io.org (Geoff Scott)
Subject: Thermometers/Starters/IBU

On thermometers:
Bob mentioned his photo developing thermometer that works for him but is
limited to below 70 degrees C.  The one I use is digital and ranges from
 -50 to +150 degrees C in increments of 0.1 degrees so wider ranges are
available.  I too would recommend checking out your local photo supply
store if you are unhappy with your current thermometer.

Keith said:
>I called the advise line of my local supply store and explained that
>I wasn't sure if my yeast starter was active or not.  They instructed
>me to take a pinch of sugar (table sugar is fine) and drop it into
>the starter bottle.  If the yeast are active in sufficient quantities,
>they will attack the sugar agressively, almost consuming it all before
>it hits the bottom of the bottle.  The result will be a column of CO2
>bubbles rising quickly to the surface of the wort.

Call me a skeptic, but isn't it more likely that the sugar is providing
nucleation points for the CO2 already in solution?

Al said:
>Many, many unsuspecting homebrewers have bought the book and have
>brewed with the formulas that Garetz published and they have brewed
>overhopped beer with them.  Even experts among us were forced to dump
>batches as a result...

Is it only me or do others find the idea of dumping a very hoppy batch
down the drain a bit odd?  At worst I would blend an otherwise good
batch with an underhopped one.  Probably I'd just suffer but I'm a hop
head.

regards,

Geoff Scott
gscott at io.org     and check out my brewing page    http://www.io.org/~gscott



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 00:43:26 -0500
From: DMFog at aol.com
Subject: CANCEL SUB TO HOMEBREW DIGEST

PLEASE CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO HOMEBREW DIGEST.

THANK YOU!

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:17:47 +1000 (EST)
From: Paul Murray <pmurray at cltr.uq.oz.au>
Subject: Dropping and Diacetyl

No doubt this thread will be done to death by the time this makes it to
the digest.  Still.  Dropping seems to be different to racking to the
secondary, as people have pointed out, both in the timing and in the
aereating.  Jim Busch makes the point that diacetyl levels will be
increased by aereating at this point (so soon after high krausen) but that
they may then be reduced later.  What would be interesting to learn is
what, given that British breweries usually proceed in a traditional manner
(i.e. the one or two who do "drop" will do so at the same stage they
always have), those on the digest with more of a scientific interest in
the subject have to say about this.  I know George Fix wrote a piece on
diacetyl and general sulphur management in bottom workers - does anybody
have any thoughts on Ale & diacetyl?  German practice as I understand it
is to control such things through temperature management, but does anyone
know the effects of timing the dropping process and the amount of
aereation involved?  I presume the yeast strain used would make a big
difference.  Kirk asks why wheeler thinks racking / dropping removes
mutant yeasts.  Breweries who don't drop their beer are likely to skim the
yeast at some point.  No yeast is solely either a top or bottom worker but
rather a mixture of the two.  Skimming (and presumably dropping) makes a
top worker more likely to stay that way over several generations /
repitchings.  Most British techniques were developed before Pastuer, the
microscope, acid washing etc appeared on the scene, so this was their only
way of propogating the strain that gave their beer its unique flavour.  It
helps if rather than think of it as removing mutants, to think of it as a
process of positive selection. 


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 00:44:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Re: Isinglass


> Robert writes:
> >I wasnt aware that *any* preparation had to be done to isinglass.  Ive 
> >been using the stuff for at least 2 years now, the only preparation I do 
> >is when making my priming soluition.  As for the 20C thing, im not sure 
> >thats entirely true either.  Ive been adding my isinglass with my priming 
> >solution when boiling it before adding it to the beer.   Ive always 
> >ended up with crystal clear beer. <snip>
> 
> I'm afraid you have been throwing your money away.  Boiling isinglass (or
> gelatin, for that matter) denatures it and it does nothing for your beer.
> I'll bet your beer would have come out perfectly crystal clear without it.

I doubt it, my beer usualy looks like swamp water without a fining of 
some sort. :-)  Even irish moss in the boil dosent do the job, which is 
why I switched back to isinglass after using Irish moss.

> When you buy it, it should be refrigerated and rather thick.  If it is thin
> and watery, then it has already gone bad.

Refigerated and thick?  The stuff im getting is dehydrated and in a dry 
package.  Maybe the dry stuff is somewhat resialiant to heat.  I wasnt 
even aware that it came in a liquid form.  Anyone know where I can get 
this stuff in a liquid form?  And can it be mail ordered safely?

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 07:44:00 CST
From: Schwab_Bryan at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Kegging principles

I've have got some questions in regards to kegging principles to those 
of you out there who are familar with the processes, pros and cons of 
this.  Frist off, I am pretty anual to this, so excuse me if this comes 
across pretty lame and so fourth.

I aquired yesterday an "A.B" pony keg, and can possibly come across a 
couple more of the larger size kegs in the near future.  Questions;
How do I remove the rings on the of the ball valve to drain the contents 
and clean?  How much cost am I to expect in uptaining an oxygen system 
for charging, used or new? Is there any way of doing this in a safe 
"make shift" system by being "frugal"?  Do I need this oxygen system, 
valves and all for draining as well?  If I am a small time brewer, 5-10 
gallons per batch, is kegging a positive or negative?  If a negative due 
to batch size, if I were to up the batches, what can I expect my cost 
increase to be to justify kegging? ( opposed to those mini-kegs)  I 
foresee possibly obtaining a couple full size kegs, cutting them in 
half, welding them together to use as my brew pot, a couple more to use 
as a Mash Lauter Tun, and several carboys to act as fermentors..... Am I 
close on this yet?

Any assistance pro or con would be appreciated, Thanks In advance!!

Bryan, {SCHWAB_BRYAN at LANMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL}:DDN:NAVY
(904)235-5768
Autovon/DDN: 436-5768


Return to table of contents


Date:     Thu, 23 Feb 95 8:35:31 EST
From: Kevin Emery DSN 584-2900 <ksemery at cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  biscuit/WY1007

Yesterday somebody mentioned using about 15% of biscuit.......

After I changed over to all grain, and before I became the master I am now,
I didn't realize the difference between all the grains.  I brewed an evil
ale using biscuit as almost all the grain bill (Also used some chocolate etc.).
I went through the whole process and put the mess in my closet to ferment.
This thing smelled awful!!!!   My better half thought we had a mouse die in 
the wall, and we spent several days looking for it.  Yup, it was this pseudo-
beer I had created.  But, as a good homebrewer, I relaxed etc etc... and 
bottled.   After a month or so in the bottle,  the smell had increased!  Sorry,
but I can't report on what it tasted like... couldn't get passed that rotting
mouse smell!  My advice...  Don't use biscuit, or if you do.... Do so sparingly!
On the other hand... The beer was extremely clear!!!

Anybody have experience using WYeast 1007 at cooler temps??   I have a
honey brown that is still chugging away after a week, and still has lots of foam
on top... The temp is 60 Dg give or take 1.  

When I open a pack of yeast, I make two starters.  I let one ferment completely
and cap it.  I use this the next time I brew (After making another starter).
The honey brown I have going now, I used a yeast I had bottled over 6 months
ago...  It took about 5 days to get active in the starter... but everything
seems to be going well.

Kevin
North East, MD 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:59:20 -0500
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: Rogue-n-Berry; wild yeast

A few questions to the collective wisdom of the HBD.  I recently had a good
fruit beer made by the Oregon Brewery in Newport, Oregon.  It was called
Rogue-n-Berry and was said to be a ale fermented with Marion Berries.  Does
anyone have any info. on this beer or brewery?  Does it have any thing to do
with the mayor of Wash. D.C. %^).  

On a second topic, if we are worried about wild yeast causing gushers from
fermenting higher dextrins that normally are not fermented, what prevents dry
hopping from introducing wild yeasts that might do just that in the bottle?

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:37:19 EST
From: Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2 at ccgate1.gsa.gov
Subject: chilling 2 pot boils

     Recently Thomas Aylesworth (thanks Tom) and Rob Mongeon posted 
     messages regarding boiling in 2 smaller pots instead of one large one. 
     This process is better for me due to a lack of power on my electric 
     rangetop and in my wallet.
     
     My question is about chilling the wort and getting still getting a 
     good cold break.  What's the best way?
     
     1)  Combine the boiled down and non-foaming pots.  I fear oxidation 
     too much to do this - is it a grounded concern?
     
     2)  Split the faucet and run two wort chillers.  Now we're talking 
     about using 40+ gallons of water just for chilling - environmentally  
     speaking even I can't condone this.  I'm not in the market for a pump 
     right now (but if I were, could I get one for about $30 and where).  
     As for saving the runoff...please, I wish I could be that dedicated.
     
     3)  Daisy chain the two wort chillers with hose.  However, the second 
     wort chiller will be using warmer water, so perhaps a third wort 
     chiller could be placed betwix them in a icewater and salt 
     solution...does this sound like too much to anyone else?  Its 50'+ of 
     copper anyway.  Also what's the prognosis about using salt to increase 
     the chilling effect?
     
     4)  Just place the pots in a tub of ice and gently circulate the wort. 
      This sounds like the most reasonable solution, but I'm back to the 
     problem of poor cold break, dimethylsulfide intrusion, ect.
     
     It looks to be a matter of picking a tradeoff and dealing with the 
     lesser of the evils.  Hopefully the pros can quantify the evils for me 
     - private email is fine and WPR (Will Post Results).  Thanks in 
     advance and thanks for the effort everyone has put into making this a 
     fantastic forum.
     
     Joe Fleming        -       JOSEPH.FLEMING at GSA.GOV


Return to table of contents


Date: 23 Feb 95 10:59:16 EST
From: James Spence/AHA/BJCP <70740.1107 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brew Legal in Mississipp

Homebrewing is not currently statutorily recognized in the state of
Mississippi.  Several homebrewers have been working on changing that fact by
introducing a bill into the state legislature.

This bill (Senate bill 2097) has passed the Senate, and is now in the House
Ways and Means committee under Glen Endrus.  Mr. Endrus is from the Gulf Port
district.  It is believed that Mr. Endrus will let the homebrewing bill die in
the committee, unless he hears support for the bill from folks in his district
within the next couple of days.  It is also believed that if the bill makes it
out of committee, that the House will pass the bill, and the Governor will sign
it.

Glen Endrus's number is (601) 359-3355.  If you support this bill, please
contact him and let him know of your support.

Cheers,

James

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:17:51 -0500
From: molloy at tcpcs3.dnet.etn.com
Subject: Holly Bananas Batman!

  I just "dropracked" my amber ale into the carboy and discovered that
my amber is now a banana lambic. My mail came one week late, I read 
yesterday that the Wyeast 1214 Belgian will produce these flavors,
can anyone tell me what to expect from the final result of my creation?
5 lb Light Dry
1 lb 100L Crystal
1 lb 10L Munich
1 lb Honey

One more question, I was thinking about pirming with honey does anyone have
a converson for 5 gallons?

                            PHIL'S RULES Kzoo

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:35:43 EST
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: How to Brew a Mild

I plan on brewing a Mild soon,  I have heard of making a high OG wort and 
thinning later.
When is later?  Do I thin to 1.035 in the primary? Secondary or at kegging 
time?

 I intend to produce a 1.080 or so OG wort via a long boil, the long boil 
will increase the carmelized sugars, I also plan on using about 10 -20% 
mild malt.  Is this typically an all malt brew or is maize used as an 
adjunct?

Lee

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:08:00 CST
From: "Sieja, Edward M" <emsieja at hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
Subject: Belgian Candi Sugar



I am interested in obtaining some Belgian Candi Sugar.  I cannot find it in
any of the homebrew catalogs that I have.  Does anyone know of a
supplier that carries this and how much it costs?

Also, what are the alternatives that would most closely substitute for the
real thing?

Thanks,

Ed Sieja         emsieja at ingr.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:18:59 -0500
From: cerevis at panix.com (Christopher P. Weirup)
Subject: Gott digest confessions


Okay, I have to make a confession.

To all the people who requested the Gott digest that I put together, I
really screwed this job up.  You probably noticed that the digest was an
attachement that was encoded with BinHex.  This probably put you in a mild
panic and caused you to curse my name and so forth.  I must apologize for
this.

The digest got bigger than I thought and it wouldn't fit onto my e-mail
document.  Therefore, I just sent it as an attachment as a text document.
However, my e-mail program (Eudora) automatically encodes attachments with
BinHex, which is a Mac program.  People with Macs (either with BinHex or
Eudora) I guess had no problems.  Everyone else on non-Mac machines was
left in the dark.  In addition, America Online users (and other online
service users) probably just got a bunch of digital gook on their e-mail
which is no help.

If you have a problem trying to open the digest, please e-mail me and I
will send it to you in two e-mailings.

If you have requested the digest but have not gotten it, yours will be on
your computer shortly.

For everyone who still wants the digest, just e-mail me and you will get
the digest in these two sections as well.

Well, I hope you all find it in your heart to forgive me.  Whoo boy, I
thinks it's times for a homebrew.

Chris Weirup
cerevis at panix.com



Return to table of contents


Date: 21 Feb 95 09:57:00 -7452
From: Gordon.Mckeever at jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: source help


- --JPLxxxccMailxxxSMTPxxxID3512gc46x
Content-Type: Text/Plain; CharSet=US-ASCII
Content-Description: Text_1


     Hello Beer People:

     I am new to the sacred science and hoping someone can give me advice
     on where I can get a case or two of the 'Fisher D'Alsace(?) type
     bottles. They are brown, 22 oz, with Grolsch type caps. I am
     incarcerated (figuratively) in the High Desert in CA, so I assume I'll
     have to order them from civilization somewhere. If anyone can provide
     me with addresses and/or phone numbers of Brew Suppliers I would be
     most appreciative.   Thanks,

                                Gordo (no clever tag line yet)
- --JPLxxxccMailxxxSMTPxxxID3512gc46x--

Return to table of contents


Date: 23 Feb 1995 15:36:41 -0500 (EST)
From: DUBOVIK at hsdwl.utc.com
Subject: Re-yeasting lager.

I'm sure this question has been asked before, so forgive the redundancy
but .... My lager has been fermenting for about 3 weeks at around 50 deg F.
(used Wyeast liquid yeast, and extract ingredients if it matters). I would
like to let it go a couple more weeks, bottle, then let it "lager" in the
bottles in the fridge. When I'm ready to bottle, do I need to add more
yeast (and if so, how much, how long before I can bottle after adding the 
yeast, etc.) or can I just add the 1/2 cup of corn sugar and bottle as
usual?

Much TIA.

Gary (CT.)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:47:38 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Auto-Mash

CEO comments:
Hi everyone
 
I'm posting the attached question for my brew-buddy Darryl, wh does 
not have access to the net.  Please reply to my address unless you 
thing the Digest as a whole will benefit from this discussion.
 
Thank you.
 
Matt
in Montreal


CEO file contents:  
Hi HBD 'ers

Here's a question about saving time:  I would like to start my
one-step infusion mash automatically  while I'm at work, by
wetting the grains in cold mash water, then setting the timer on
the oven before leaving home in the morning. That way, when I get
back, already one hour of mash time would have been completed.

Let's assume that oven temp control accuracy is good enough and
is well calibrated, and that timing and everything else about the
mashing / sparge / boil process is standard. What would be the
effect of the grains sitting wet / cold for eight hours or so,
before being slowly raised to 155 F for infusion mash ?  Does
this do damage to any part of the process ? Must I mash-in at the
normal striking temps ? 

I could try this, but would rather not waste a batch if someone
out there has already done it. Any help will be appreciated....

Darryl

"....welcome aboard the Calypso..."

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 16:28:00 GMT
From: doug.flagg at chksix.com (Doug Flagg)
Subject:  Yeast/Fermentation problems


I would like to access the collected wisdom of the Digest for some
guidance in solving my problem.

I have been brewing almost 4 years now (3 years all grain) but I
have a recurring problem with my yeast; specifically getting it to
start in a strong and healthy manner. All too often my yeast is
pitched and ...nothing, or maybe an anemic ferment.  My last batch was a
case in point.  I spent 4 hours doing a double decoction mash (my first
double), 2 hours boiling and cooling, and then pitching a healthy load
of Wyeast Bohemian Lager yeast.  24 hours later, nothing. No CO2. The
air lock liquid level was dead even. 48 hours later some activity
(bubbling) but not much head. 72 hours later and there is a head,
bubbling activity, and visible yeast deposit at the bottom of the
carboy, but the head is not the tight creamy white kind I would expect.
It is thin with large different size bubbles.  It reminds me of a scum
on a swamp.  This, unfortunately, is not a new phenomenon for me.

A little about my technique: I use canned (Ball jars) wort to step
up liquid yeast to pitching levels.  I use Wyeast and Yeast Lab liquid
yeast.  After the bag swells (in the case of Wyeast) or after the
yeast and the wort equalize temperature (in the case of Yeast Lab),
I shake 1/2 pint of wort to aerate, pour in the yeast, affix an air
lock, and put away at room temp to ferment out.

The 1/2 pint of fermented (beer?) is pitched into 1 pint of aerated
wort and allowed to ferment out.  This is further pitched into 1 qt,
and maybe more quarts of wort (depending on the time I have before
I brew).  The last batch ended up with a good 1/4 inch of gray matter
on the bottom of a 1 gallon cider jug.  This was pitched into my 5
gallon brew.

A number of potential problem areas I have thought about and tried to
correct:

1.  The starter might not have enough oxygen to allow a healthy growth.
I addressed this by vigorously shaking each wort addition.

2.  The starter might have fermented out and not wanted to start again.
A number of times I have pitched an actively bubbling starter.  It did
not seem to make a difference.

3.  There might not be enough oxygen in the wort to be fermented.
I drain my boiler into a 6 gallon carboy (after cooling to 58^)
allowing it to fan down the side of the carboy.  I let the break settle
in that carboy and then rack into another carboy, again allowing the
stream to fan down the side of the carboy.  I have, also, aerated the
first carboy with an airstone and airpump for up to 30 minutes.  It
did not seem to make any difference in fermentation.

4.  The yeast might be shocked or killed by a temperature differential.
I cool my wort to 58^.  I also try to get the starter solution as close
to this temp as possible.  This last batch was between 52^ - 55^.
Since dry yeast is routinely re hydrated at 100^ and pitched into 70^ -
75^ wort, I do not believe *my* temperature differential is excessive.

Somehow I still believe my problem is oxygen/temperature related, but
I can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong. *ANY*
suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Doug Flagg
doug.flagg at chksix.com

- ---
 * OLX 1.53 * Dogs come when you call. Cats have answering machines.

Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1666, 02/27/95