FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Minor Crushoff, Ft-lbs, Bitter Orange ("Palmer.John")
  Wheat Head Problems (Elde)
  Water Conditioning (Rob McDonald)
  Jay and Jack (Russell Mast)
  The yeast that did nothing (Neal Lerner)
  questions ("Dulisse, Brian")
  Bierre de garde (kit.anderson)
  Oatmeal Stout without head (Matt_K)
  re: Kegging (Curt Eastman)
  The SnobBrew Digest? (Rick Magnan)
  How I lost my zymur-ginity...Part II (Paul Shallbetter)
  Easy masher spigot thing (Matthew Robert Koster)
  Buying Beer in Atlanta (Michael McGuire**STUDGUPPY**)
  Re: Bad Beer (Chris Strickland)
  decoction/sparging/capping/WS 68 (A. J. deLange)
  American vs. French Oak for kegs (Yeastbud)
  Gelatin (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Using Cuisinart (John Hartman)
  Oops? (MnMGuy)
  yeast starters ("James Giacalone")
  Felinfoel (Russell Mast)
  Gelatin (Russell Mast)
  summary: storing starters (Michael Mendenhall)
  Mashing Dark Grains ("Palmer.John")
  Gelatin Usage (Jeff Guillet)
  How/when cut hop roots ? (Kevin Cavanaugh)
  Just Hops ("Penn, Thomas")
  Partial Mash Procedures (Elde)
  PBS? (Alan P Van Dyke)
  Double Dragon (Tim Fahrner)
  san fran and monterey (marc)
  1st Round - Chicago - 2nd Call (Dennis Davison)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 10 Apr 1995 09:47:28 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Minor Crushoff, Ft-lbs, Bitter Orange 

Hi Group, 

Scott Kaczorowski and I brewed a 12 gallon batch of Santa Nevada Porter
Saturday
and he brought over his Glatt Maltmill so we could compare it to my JSP
Maltmill is a side by side performance evaluation. Let me preface by saying
that I am speaking a bit tongue-in-cheek here, this was by no means a
scientific test. We ground a cup of grain in each, put the two samples side by
side in a plastic bucket lid and looked at it. I forget what spacing Scott set
on the Glatt Mill on, it was somewhere in the middle of the range. My JSP mill
is the fixed spacing version.

The two crushes of 2 Row Lager Malt looked identical. No real difference
between them. Each sample had some "just squished" grains, a couple broken in
half at the middle, but the vast majority was well crushed with non-shredded
hulls.

The Glatt Mill did crank easier than the JSP Mill, but this is only relative,
neither mill would have overtaxed a child. The only real difference between the
two was the thru-put. The JSP Mill had probably 3 times the thru-put of the
Glatt Mill, likely a result of the increased roller length and diamond knurling
of the JSP which seemed to "pull" the grain into the rollers better than the
longitudinal grooves of the Glatt. 

Taking turns, we crushed 22 lbs of assorted grain in 10-15 minutes on the JSP.
The only improvement I would recommend for the JSP Maltmill is to mount a shed
door handle to the pressboard base to provide a good grip while cranking
because it sits on top of a standard 5-7 gal bucket. When you are grinding some
tougher malt like crystal and the bucket is moving and being tippy, gripping
the smooth baseboard to keep it steady is not ideal. A simple handle, the kind
you slip all your fingers thru, would help tremendously. I plan to do this
before the next batch.
**
FYI, in the aerospace industry, the standard term for torque on all the spec.s
is Ft-lb (and inch-lb). We're engineers, we know what we mean, and this way we
don't confuse the guys in the shop. We stood around and laughed at a Checker
who wanted to revise a Space Station drawing to change it to lb-ft. 
**
For those brewers looking for a west coast supply of Bitter Orange Peel, the
Home Brewery homebrew supply shop in San Bernardino, CA is now stocking it
because of the local demand. The owners, Dennis and Rae Minikel, are members of
our homebrew club, the Crown of the Valley Brewers, based in Pasadena CA. Their
Order Line is (800) 622-7393. 
**
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:02:54 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Wheat Head Problems

In my latest batch of (Edme Kit) Wheat, the head is very nice, but rapidly
fades.

I've finally got the carbonation level where I want it, but now to make it
foam and stay!

Derek.

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 13:07 EDT
From: rob at maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Rob McDonald)
Subject: Water Conditioning

After a few years of extract brewing, I decided to try all grain brewing.
My darker brews were fine, but lagers and american style ales always had
a harsh astringent quality.  I discovered that my tap water is extremely 
alkaline (pH = 8.8 - 9.0).  Dave Miller suggests that USP hydrochloric 
acid is the ideal agent to neutralize alkaline water.
1) Has anybody tried this?
2) If so what recommendations can you make.
3) Can anybody suggest why this wouldn't be a good idea?

I could just buy bottled water, but then I could just buy beer too :-).

 .....rob


EMAIL:   rob at maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca     <<< Standard Disclaimers Apply >>>

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:28:20 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Jay and Jack

Jack says :
> Did not!

Jay says :
> Did too!

If you two don't stop that I'm going to pull over and you're both going to 
walk home!  

Seriously, guys, if you want a flame-fest, take it elsewhere.  If either 
of you have something constructive to say, as both of you often do, then
say it, by all means.  But leave the flames out.  

Speaking of constructive, I tried to e-mail something to A2J at CU.NIH.GOV 
about taking home a cup o' yeast from yer local brewery.  It's a great idea,
and I went in to more detail in my e-mail, which was bounced.  Check to make
sure your address is being correctly represented here.

 -R

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:54:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neal Lerner <nlerner at acs.bu.edu>
Subject: The yeast that did nothing

Hi, folks.  I'm a long-time lurker coming out with a question about my 
first major brewing problem (well, there was that spiced ale that was 
undrinkable, but that's another story):  I brewed up a brown ale (from 
all grain, OG around 1.059) a week ago, and pitched a pint starter of 
some yeast I had cultured from a bottle of Rogue's Shakespeare Stout (the 
culturing was done on a slant a la Dave Draper's great faq).  Well, there 
was krausening within 24 hours, there was some slow CO2 bubbling from the 
airlock, and most of the yeast seemed to do their thing and then drop out 
of suspension, but when I took a gravity reading after a week, nothing 
had happened; SG was still 1.059!  Hmm, did I pitch one of those dreaded 
"carbonation" yeasts?  I tasted the brew (the wort, really), and it 
tastes sweet, slightly yeasty, not perceptibly "off" yet.

This morning I repitched with a starter of Wyeast 1056 and figured I'd 
let this yeast do it's thing and taste again before transferring to a 
secondary. 

My questions:  What did that first yeast actually do if it did absolutely 
no consumption of sugars?  Does this brown ale have a shot at 
drinkability?  Will I be back at the homebrew store next weekend buying 
grain (for re-doing this batch, anyway)?

TIA

Neal Lerner
nlerner at acs.bu.edu

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 15:01:00 EST
From: "Dulisse, Brian" <BBD4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV>
Subject: questions


i made the all grain plunge and brewed my first batch yesterday.  for the 
most part, it worked out really well.  the worst part was that i started to 
measure the sg of the runnings too early (being the curious sort, i started 
measuring as soon as i stopped recirculating, and then measured every so 
often; in a real "doh" maneuver, i spaced and did not chill the initial 
samples down to 60f, so i was fairly quickly measuring my sg as 1.020, and 
measured very often after that so as not to sparge past 1.008 . . . i caught 
on when i was measuring 1.010).  other than that, it wasn't bad, and i'm 
hooked.  but now i gots some questions . . .

1.  i've always kind of skipped over the digest discussions of extraction, 
so i'm just guessing here, but i figure that the correct way to calculate 
this is (sg of the unboiled wort  - 1)*(# gal of unboiled wort)/(lbs grain). 
 yes? no?

2.  i used an infusion mash, 2 gal 168f water for 6 lbs 2 row and .75 lb. 
crystal.  i stirred it up to get all the grain wet, then let it sit for an 
hour.  upon opening the cooler, i measured the temperature of the thick part 
at the top in the 140s, while the temp at the bottom was in the low 150s. is 
this normal?  shuld i have opened the cooler up halfway through and stirred? 
 i worried that 140s was insufficient to convert, so i added some 180f water 
to raise temp of the top part to about 152, and let it sit another 20 min. 
 good?  bad?  if bad, why?

3.  getting caught up in the moment, i didn't mash out.  if i'm going to 
mash out, how much hot water (and at what temperature) should i add (i.e., 
is it better to use less 212f water or more 180f water?)

4.  as i described above, my sparge took a long time.  does this raise any 
problems?  next time, i'll know better, but is a long sparge actually a 
cause for concern?

5.  this isn't specific to all-grain, but i'll throw it in.  having had some 
problems with getting batches to finish properly, i concluded that the 
problem was insufficient aeration.  i bought an aquarium pump and some 
aeration stones.  are the standard bonded sand stones ok to use?  what about 
the plastic tubing that comes with it (i.e., should i go out and buy 
different tubing?)  when i used the pump, i could only turn it on for about 
5 - 10 minutes at a time because the foam generated by the air filled up the 
headspace.  how do others deal with this problem?   i seem to recall posts 
where people just turn the thing on for 4 - 8 hours at a time, with no 
mention of really big messes on the kitchen floor.

thanks

bd

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 15:31:01 -0500
From: kit.anderson at acornbbs.com
Subject: Bierre de garde


                             

Bierre de Garde
by Kit Anderson

Since winning my first best of show at SNERHC (Southern New England
Regional Homebrew Competition) with a rare style (bierre de garde), my 
life has not been the same what with having to unlist my phone, going 
out in public with dark sunglasses, writers' cramp leading to carpal 
tunnel syndrome from having to continuously sign autographs in the 
supermarket, product endorsements, and a string talk show appearances. 
I have decided to expose my secrets in the hope that others will have 
similar success and my life will return to a somewhat normal state.

It was originally a farmhouse ale brewed in small batches by 
farmer/brewers in the Flemish speaking area of northern France. By 
WWI, many brewers moved to bottom fermenting yeast but kept the 
fermentation relatively high (60F). Locals would buy the beer out of 
primary and allow secondary fermentation in crocks at their homes.

As a style, it is extemely variable. It is similar to the "red beer" 
phenomenon in that you have a great deal of leeway in what you throw 
into the kettle since it is not a specific style. Consider it a beer 
typical of this region rather than the overly specific AHA definition.

Looking at the largest selling commercial imports, they have an OG of 
1060-1074. 5.6-6.6% ABV. There should be an ale like fruitiness, but 
restrained. The accent is on malt, usually of a spicy, aromatic 
specification. Vienna malt is predominant grain in the mash. A long 
vigorous boil is used for carmelization and the saccharificaton 
temperature leans towards a dextrinous wort. The color is 35-40 EBC. 
Hops are spicy, but soft. 22-30 IBU using Brewers' Gold, Hallertau, 
Spalt, and Hersbruck. The water should be soft. Some people insist on 
cellar characteristics of oak, cork, or ageing. Lagering at 35F for 
one month leads to smoothness. Commercial companies usually produce 
several beers of increasing strenghts and colors as well and stronger 
winter beers going from deep gold 4.5% ABV to 7%ABV dark winter beers.

My recipe:

Bierre De Garde
for 5 US gallons

Vienna          9 lb
Crystal 80      .25 lb
Wheat           .5 lb
Aromatic 	.25 lb

Infusion mash (RIMS) per Dr. Fix (40-60-70C).

N. Brewer       .5 oz   8.8%    60 min
N.Brewer 	.5 oz   8.8%    20 min
H. Hallertau    .5 oz   5.25    2 min

Boil 120 min

Yeast Labs' Munich Lager
26 IBU
16 Lovibond- 40 EBC
OG 1063
FG 1015
Primary 5 days  at  70F
Secondary 14 days  at  45F

Best of Show at SNERHC. Judges comments: Delicious, creamy. You 
captured the earthiness this style requires. Very bright. Head stays 
to the end of the beer. 41 points.

Kit "Travels With Chiles" Anderson
Bath, Maine
<kit.anderson at acornbbs.com>
*
- ---
 * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 16:11:45 edt
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Oatmeal Stout without head

Message:
I recently brewed an Oatmeal Stout and the stuff is absolutely 
wonderful with the exception that head retention is zip.  Now this may 
be purely aesthetic but it is bugging me. A brewbuddy of mine has 
brewed several Oatmeal Stouts and all have had the same problem but 
none of our other batches have had a problem.

The grain bill for this batch was as follows:

MASH  90 min
9 lb Canadian 2 Row	
1 lb Caramel 
1.5 lb Carapils
 .25 lb Flaked Wheat
1 lb rolled oats cooked for 10 min and added to mash after 10 minutes	

Steep for 15 min
 .5 lb Roast Barley
1 oz Black Patent
 .3 lb Chocolate malt

The oats I used were ordinary no-name rolled oats I found in the 
cupboard.  What happens when I our a glass is that it has a nice head 
at first.  After 20 seconds the bubbles are big like soap bubbles anf 
after another 20 seconds they are gone.  My assupmtion is that 
something in the oats (oils?) is killing the head.  Any suggestions 
what is causing this and how it can be fixed?  

One of the reasons I brewed an Oatmeal Stout is that my brew buddy has 
had these head retention problems in the past and I thought I could do 
better. Yeah.... right!!  This is now turning into a grudge match.  Me 
against the Oatmeal stout!

P.S.  Thank's to another friend I now have a sig line.  I AM 
COMPLETE!!

Matt, in Montreal

Suds.... Gotta love'em! -Kenny King- 


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 16:25:09 -0500
From: eastman at kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil (Curt Eastman)
Subject: re: Kegging

In #1702, Wade writes:

>in hbd1697 jim asks about kegging questions ..... in general, you need
>to keep the recommended pressure for
>the carbonation you desire, whether that is from the co2 bottle or from
>priming sugar. when you prime the keg probably reached 15+ psi, but the
>carbonation was 'lost' when the keg was 'let down' to less than 10psi. i
>keep my kegs at 12 to 15psi at 40 deg f (the temperature component is
>important). hope this helps.

I finally think I figured out what happened to my first attempt at kegging.
I had read (shortly before I kegged my first batch) in the hbd that there
is a potential for over pressurization to stop the activity of the yeast.
I primed an IPA with the recommended amt of corn sugar (1/3 C if I remember
correctly) and dumped into my Keg.  I had a heck of a time getting the lid
of my corny keg to seal - I finally did it with about 20lb pressure.  I
didn't relax as much as I should have and bled some CO2 off to decrease the
pressure.  Probably an OK thing to do at the start.  But each day after
that I released a little bit of pressure to keep from inhibiting the yeast.
What I got 3.5 weeks later (70 deg contitioning) was a delicious flat
beer.  I let it go another 2 weeks and still no better.  I am force
carbonating it now and will see if that works.

Next time I will just leave it alone until I'm ready to drink.

If I'm totally off on this please let me know.

Thanks,

 -Curt




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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rick Magnan <magnan at jimmy.harvard.edu>
Subject: The SnobBrew Digest?

From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>:

>said forum is commercial free and invitation only, targeted at advanced
>homebrewers, sory if this annoys you but in America we are still allowed the
>freedom to choose who we associate with. Subscription requests acceptance is 
>based on several things. Maintaining a manageable size, maintaining discussion
>of desired quality and maintaning a Private and commercial free discussion.
>Think of it as the PBS of homebrewing...

Not quite Jay, PBS is *public* television, and you don't need to 
an invitation in order to receive the benefits.
- -----
I'm grateful to all you out there who contribute your knowledge, time 
and postings to the *HBD* !!  (and I apologize for diluting whats been an 
excellent S/N ratio over that last few months).


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 17:09:25 -0500
From: pshallbe at faribault.polaristel.net (Paul Shallbetter)
Subject: How I lost my zymur-ginity...Part II

I was very happy to receive over forty replies to my beginner's brewing 
questions.  Thanks to all who responded.

ON SIPHONING/RACKING/TRANSFER:

Most respondents agreed that correct transfer of wort from the primary to a 
secondary fermenter exposed the beer to either excessive oxygen (leading to 
diacetyl flavors or worse) or risk of innocculation by airborne bacteria.  
This was a classic "beginner's" mistake that I made in my first 3 batches.  
I thought one was SUPPOSED to allow the beer to splash vigorously into the 
carboy.  Wrong-O, buddy!  Transfer of the beer must be sedate and as 
"anaerobic" as possible.  

Problem is, the transfer tubing that came with my "Master Brewer From Hell 
Kit" is only two feet long!  It will not reach to the bottom of my carboy.   
Time to make the small investment in tubling...or use single- stage 
fermentation.

Thirty of the forty respondents liked the idea of racking the beer in order 
to leave the sediment, break material,  and dead yeast behind.  The rest 
felt it was too much trouble to literally rack (using a curved, hard plastic 
racking cane) between the primary and the secondary fermenters, although all 
agreed that racking was a good idea before priming and bottling.

ON CARBONATION:

Those who responded to the carbonation question agreed that I probably was 
either conditioning the beer at too low a temperature, for too short a time, 
or that I was worrying too much.  The fact of the matter is that the 
instructions for my first batch (from Brew n' Grow of Minneapolis) said 
NOTHING about boiling the priming sugar in water prior to adding it to the 
wort.  Yes it makes common sense to do so, but the instructions said nothing 
about it!

The other problem is not of carbonation, but of EXPECTATION.  If the 
begining brewer expects a "beer commercial" head and a CoorMillBud bubble 
content from an extract kit, (s)he  will doubtlessly be disappointed, said 
the respondents.  Homebrew is not commercial beer (thank God).  Don't expect 
it to look, feel or taste like that garbage you've been drinking since high 
school.  It turned out that Papazian is right...I should have relaxed, not 
worried, and had a homebrew. My second batch after sufficient conditioning 
time in the bottles is very satisfactory, has a nice mouth feel and good 
carbonation...and even a decent (although thin) head.

I have now made four ales, ranging from an Edme "just add water and sugar" 
hopped malt extract beer to a three-malt brown ale with adjunct grains.  
While it's too early to tell about batches 3 and 4 (3 is in the bottles, 
aging, and 4 went into the primary last night), I am well satisfied with my 
progress as a homebrewer.  Again, thanks to all who wrote me with advice.  
Rest assured I'll ask again when I need help!

Paul Shallbetter
pshallbe at faribault.polaristel.net

"Can ANYBODY help me find a hydrometer I CAN READ!?"




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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 17:19:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Matthew Robert Koster <matthewk at csd.uwm.edu>
Subject: Easy masher spigot thing

Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience with the Easy Masher spigot thing. It's
usually in the classifieds in zymurgy. It's a spigot with a screen to filter
out the grains. Are they any good? Will this take place of a lauter-tun? Any
comments or personal testimonies would be very helpful.

Mk...

p.s. I'm going to be attaching this to a stainless steel half barrel keg. Is
it pretty easy to do.

p.s.^2 How much are they?

Mk...
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+     Matt Koster  - Milwaukee, WI - matthewk at csd.uwm.edu     +
+            WWW: http://www.uwm.edu/~matthewk/               +
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 16:58:02 CDT
From: mcguire at ebs330.eb.uah.edu (Michael McGuire**STUDGUPPY**)
Subject: Buying Beer in Atlanta

Hi Folks,

I'm headed to Hotlanta for the weekend and was interested in finding
some good places to buy beer.  I'm interested in finding some Helles,
Lambics(sp), Scottish ales, and maybe a good Belgium Double or Tripple.
The only beer stores I've been to are Mack's near Gatech and Dekab County
Farmers Market in Decatur.

Thanks in Advance

Mike

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:51:35 -0400
From: cstrick at iu.net (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Re: Bad Beer

Here's another use for bad beer.  I pour the bottles on fire ants hills in 
my vegetable garden (since I'm strictly organic I avoid poisons).  It 
doesn't kill
em, but several bottles will force the ants to move somewhere else.
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick at iu.net


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 16:47:08 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: decoction/sparging/capping/WS 68

In #1701 From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com> lists reasons for
decoction mashing. Here's my list of pro's:

1. Breaks down protein matrix to release starch
2. Gelatinizes starch
3. Extracts, coagulates and precipitates tannins and silicates
   so that one need not worry about temp/pH of sparge (see 5
   in list of cons below).
4. Reduces pH of rest mash upon return.
5. Produces flavor and aroma compounds (melanoidins).
6. Less trub fromed in main boil.
7. Less cold break material.
8. Less chance of raw starch carry over from lauter tun to kettle
   (but see 8 in list of cons)
9. Thicker mashes possible than with step infusion.

 ...and of cons:

1. Complicated.
2. Time consuming.
3. Requires additional equipment.
4. Darkens bee.r
5. Long lagering required to complex and precipitate tannins.
6. Danger of scorching in decoction vessel.
7. High energy utilization.
8. In double decoction danger of transfer of starch released if not
   fully broken down in rest mash.


danz at rtp.semi.harris.com (George Danz 919-405-3632) wondered about
sparging with boiling water thus

>...I'm wondering if there just isn't enough time in the hot stuff
to cause significant leaching of tannins?

Stick a thermometer into the grain bed while sparging with boiling water.
Unless your set up is very different from mine you will find that the grain
temperature will gradually drift down from 170 (assuming you did a mash-out)
into the 150's  even though boiling water is going onto the top.
The sparge  water falls from the ring onto the surface of standing water
which should be a half inch or so deep. This allows plenty of time for
cooling. If hotter water were available (no one need post reminders that
the boiling point of water is 212F or suggesting sparging under pressure)
I would use it as even boiling water won't keep the grain bed temperature
up where I want it and low grain bed temperature means long lauter/sparges
especially with viscous worts such as encountered in wheat beers.

Remember that the grain husks are at the bottom of the bed; farthest from
where the hot water hits the column. In other words, use boiling water for
sparging without fear as long as the grain bed temperature is below
170.

The first part of this post shows that decoction mashers have a bit more
lattitude in this regard.

In #1702 "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com> commented
with respect to leaving caps on bottles for a while before crimping:
>I think that the layer of CO2 comes from the CO2 coming out of solution
>as it warms (especially true for lagers).
Bottle fillers in breweries use this very principal. They mechanically knock
the bottle or distrub the beer by shooting a fine jet of water or beer into
the neck of the bottle to cause it to foam. Then cap in then popped on
and crimped.


"Wuerstl, Matthew A." <WUERSTL at WMAVM7.VNET.IBM.COM> asks:
>... if anyone knows of a quick disconnect type connection for use on
>the tank side of the CO2 line. Something along the lines of an air compressor
>disconnect but smaller?

Such a device is made by "Hansen Coupling Division, Cleveland Ohio" according
to the stamping on the side. I get these at retail from my local homebrew shop
and they are great (but a bit expensive). Observant readers will recognize that
name from the connectors on soda kegs. They are about the same size as the
very similar devices found on air compressor hoses.

"mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil> reports a rotton egg smell from Wyeast
3068: A sulphur smell is normal with some strains, especially lager ones but
I have never encountered it with 3068. The predominant smell with this strain
is bannana. Keep your fingers crossed and wait it out.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:43:31 -0400
From: Yeastbud at aol.com
Subject: American vs. French Oak for kegs

While on a tour of Beringer Winery the tour guide pointed out some of their
estate wine fermenting in american oak barrels.  I mentioned to him that in
all the literature that I've read the common wisdom is that american oak is
appropriate for bourbon and not wine or beer.  He told me that these barrels
were different because the oak was split not cut on a saw.  He also stated
the an oak tree is an oak tree no matter where it grows. According to our
guide a few American coopers are adopting the french method of spliting the
wood for the barrel staves and the resulting barrel leaches alot less oak
flavor into the liquid due to the unbroken wood grain. 

Matt Wyss
Albany, Ca 

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Gelatin

Kirk R Fleming and Richard Hampo have questions about gelatin.  Kirk, the
reason your gelatin didn't do anything is that you boiled it.  It is a
protein, and boiling denatures it.  I dissolve a 1/4 oz packet it in a cup
of cold water in a larger container, then heat it in the microwave,
stirring occasionally to avoid hot spots, until it is clear.  If you get
it up to ~160^F, it should destroy any spoilage critters.  At least, I've
never had any trouble.  Then I add some beer to the gelatin to thin it,
and then siphon this mixture into the beer I have already siphoned into
the priming carboy.  I generally do this after I've racked about a gallon,
and figure the swirling of the remaining beer running in mixes the
gelatin. I did this last week with a stout, and the effect was dramatic
with the contrast between the stout and the yeast.  It settled out in
about three hours. 

Richard, I don't bottle much anymore, but when I did, I used gelatin, and 
never had a carbonation problem.  As a matter of fact, I prided myself on 
having a coat of yeast on the bottom of the bottle no thicker than a coat 
of paint.  You could pour it without worrying about that last bit 
clouding the glass of beer.  I just made sure that I got one slug of 
sedimented yeast when I ws siphoning from the secondary to the bottling 
or priming carboy.  That was seldom anything I had to work at - it 
usually happened anyway.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:05:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Hartman <jhartman at VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Using Cuisinart

Pat Humphrey writes: 

Excerpts from mail: 11-Apr-95 Homebrew Digest #1703 (Apri.. Request No
Articles at hpfc (46520) 

> I don't have a grain mill and for the small amount of grain required in a 
> partial/extract brew, I just use a wood rolling pin (not a good idea 
> because I have made ALOT of dents in the pin and my wife is getting upset). 
> Has anyone has tried using a food processer ala. Cuisunart (sp.?) to crack 
> the grains?  I realize that running the machine too long will grind the 
> grain into flour and I'll end up making bread from them. 

In the for what it's worth dept I got tired of the rolling pin method
too and it was near impossible to use a wooden one for some of the
harder grains and buying one made of marble was out of the question. 

Didn't have a Cuisinart, but we did have a meat grinder which was in
good shape and had various plates.  After a little experimentation I
found the two plates that I felt worked best and have been using it ever
since.  I figured it can't be any worse than the rolling pin for the
little bit of specialty grains I use.  I think it works well.  A little
flour, some grains not touched at all, but it works for me. 

Meat grinders in good shape are in abundance at flea markets. 

 -jh 


John Hartman                  AFS: jhartman+ 
Dept 43K/006-2 G105           VM: jhartman at rchland (if you must :) 
Dev/2000 Client/Server Team   internet: jhartman at vnet.ibm.com 
IBM Rochester, MN             (507)253-8037 tl. 553-8037 


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:04:00 -0400
From: MnMGuy at aol.com
Subject: Oops?

>I have a bock (actually, I was trying to make a Dobbelbock, but back
>to the
>story).  The recipe was something like:
>
>3.3# M&F Amber
>6# light DME (Not Laaglander - never again!)

Oops.  I just bought a bunch of extra light DME.

What's the deal?  Why don't you like it?

Comment on finings:

I used gelatin the other day and had excellent results.  I had an ale sitting
for nearly two weeks that refused to clear at all.  I dissolved one small
packet of knox in warm water and pitched it in the carboy like yeast.  I
heard you are supposed to add it when kegging.  But I don't keg, and adding
it to the carboy let me watch anyway.  Twelve hours later, I saw significant
improvement.  Twenty four hours later, it was nearly clear and I bottled.

By the way, do not boil gelatin.  It destroys it.

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 8:23:19 MDT
From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: yeast starters

Hello!
I just noticed that there is a ring around the neck
 of my yeast starter bottle.  Is this contamination
 or is this common with Westephan yeast?  
Have any of you more experienced brewers seen this? 
 Please respond to my private E-mail. 
TIA J.Giacalone
In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances,
 profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.  
(especially when you brew a bad batch of beer) 
 Mark Twain 

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:49:16 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Felinfoel


MClarke950 :
 
> Whew.  I haven't seen Felinfoel here in Seattle for a couple of years.  I
> think 
> they were bought out by Thames Brewing. (My reason for saying this is that
> Thames started putting out Welsh ale around the time Felinfoel disapppeared
> from the shelves.  The packaging is also similiar.)  

There is a bar in St. Louis called Llewellyn's (sp?) which carries Felinfoel 
double dragon on tap.  Each time I had it there it was surprisingly fresh for
an import, and truly delightful.  Noticing the similar packaging, I bought a
bottle of Thames' Welsh Ale last week.  I drank it last night, and it had a 
similar flavor, but I think it had been sitting on a shelf or a boat 
somewhere for way too long.  Either that, or it's just not good beer.  

Either way, Thames in a bottle is a lot different than Felinfoel on tap.  
The bottled beer was much sweeter (maybe hops aged away?) and much thicker.
Also, the tap beer had a distinct but subtle toasted flavor, whereas the 
bottle was like being hit with a 50 lb. sack of Biscuit.  The first sip was
great, but it was just too heavy and cloying to enjoy.  It also had a flavor
which I attribute to "extract brewing" but I don't know what it's really 
from.  It might be carmelization from oxidizing hot wort.  It also could 
be due to being overly old.  If anyone has had a good bottle of this stuff, 
I'd like to hear about it.  Also, it looked like it had live yeasties in it.

 -Russell

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:59:29 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Gelatin


> From: Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk at usa.net>

> Is proper practice to boil, cool a 
> little, add gelatin, dissolve, then add to beer?

Yep.  Boiling denatures the gelatin's proteins.  The water should
still be hot, else the gelatin is hard to dissolve.  I don't
know how hot the water has to be to denature the gelatin, I usually
let mine cool for about 10 minutes.  (Half a beer.)

> From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Richard Hampo)

> Does gelatin take out the yeast?

Yes and no.  There should be enough left in solution to effectively
condition.

 -Russell

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:40:24 -0600
From: Michael Mendenhall <BRCMRC.BRMAIN.MMENDENH at EMAIL.STATE.UT.US>
Subject:  summary: storing starters

** High Priority **

Last week I issued a request for information on how to take the
inflexibility out of using yeast starters.  The following is a summary of
responses: 

Mark Evans <evanms at lcac1.loras.edu> saves app. 16 oz. of  yeast
from his primary ferment in a sterile glass jar w/ airlock for 2-4 weeks in
the refrigerator,  repitches and has active fermentation in 2 hours.  He's
used yeast stored up to 10 weeks in the fridge (without feeding) and
repitched successfully.

Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> cautions against storing yeast in
a fridge if there's a chance temps will drop below freezing.  He
strongly suggests that after coming out of the fridge, the yeast be given 
a couple of days to "wake up" and warm up before pitching, and as an
extra boost, feeding them fresh starter medium.  He also suggests
protecting the yeast from the fridge's dirty environment by enveloping the
container in a new, clean plastic bag.

Fleming, Kirk R., Capt <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil> has stored
yeast from the primary for a few days in the fridge, warmed it to pitching
temperature, pitched, and has experienced lag times as short as one
hour.  He recalls reading the yeast shouldn't be stored in the fridge
without refeeding for more than two weeks but was unable to cite the
source.

Peter Schweitzer <pas at aretha.jax.org> has stored capped bottles of 
completely fermented-out starter in the fridge for up to 2 months,
removed from fridge, fed fresh starter medium and the yeast reactivated
successfully.

A pat on the back to you who responded.

Michael Mendenhall
Salt Lake City, Utah
mmendenh at email.state.ut





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Date: 11 Apr 1995 09:03:38 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Mashing Dark Grains

>Paul Baker of COVBS asked about when to mash dark roast grains:
Paul! 
You and Mark made Pete's Wicked Ale and didnt tell me?! Uh! (Picture the
chickens in the Foster Farms commercial- the Donut Stand) I would have come
over!

I mash Chocolate Malt, I dont mash Black Patent or Roast. Otoh, I have never
used Roast. I think the rationale is the style of beer you are making and what
degree of character you want from the malt. When we made the Vienna, the recipe
calls for less than a quarter lb to be added at Mashout (or when you start
lautering). When I make a Porter I want the the roast flavor, I want more of
the roasted character, so I mash it. When you are making a Brown Ale, you want
more of the color and a hint of the character so either add it Later or Mash a
smaller amount. Very bitter roasts like Black Patent aka charcoal, are almost
always better off being added at Mashout in my opinion, because I dont like the
charcoal taste that it imparts. Adding late in the Mash mellows that taste a
lot.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/
Another member of COVBS; (but Paul missed Sunday's meeting).

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 17:17:00 GMT
From: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com (Jeff Guillet)
Subject: Gelatin Usage


- --- Kirk Fleming wrote:

K>Folks report the effectiveness of gelatin finings, but I've used it
K>twice  now with no effect whatever.  I suspect it's because I've
K>boiled the  water *after* adding the gelatin.  Is proper practice to
K>boil, cool a  little, add gelatin, dissolve, then add to beer?

I have found gelatin to be an *extremely* good fining agent.  Here's how
I use it:  Boil up about 1 cup of water and let cool for about 5 
minutes.  Add 1 teaspoon of Knox unflavored gelatin to the hot water and
stir to dissolve thoroughly.  Add it to the secondary.  I do this 12-24 
hours after racking the beer into the secondary.

Gelatin clears suspended yeast from the beer beautifully!  It will do 
nothing about protein (which will cause chill haze).  For that, I use 1 
tablespoon of Irish Moss 15 minutes before the end of the boil.

- ---  Richard Hampo writes:

R>I've got a pretty basic question. I've got a beer that is still 
R>cloudy (in secondary) and I want to try gelatin or some such stuff to 
R>clear it up. Question is, if I add the stuff to the secondary and it 
R>clears up, do I need to add new yeast at priming time before I bottle? 

I worried about that the first time I used gelatin, but I bottled 
without adding yeast anyway.  Worked great!  No carbonation problems at 
all.

 -=Jeff=-  Internet: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com

* CMPQwk 1.42-R2 * Reg #1757 *

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 13:36:07 EDT
From: cavanaug at gdc.com (Kevin Cavanaugh)
Subject: How/when cut hop roots ?

I have read the hop faq, but it did not go into much detail about how or when
to cut hop roots.  This will be the third season for my hop bines.  The first 
year they grew about 5 feet, and last year about 15 feet.  I figure it must be 
about time to trim the roots back, also because friends are asking for the 
cuttings to grow themselves.  

When is the best time to cut?  My hops are now about 1 inch tall, several shoots
growing out of the same base.  Do I need to cut the shoots above ground in 
additions to the roots underground ?  How do I cut the roots ?  Is there one
main root I should avoid or just start cutting anywhere ?  How long should each
root cut be ?  Do the roots ever travel and resurface as new bines if left 
alone ?  Sorry about all the questions but I don't want to miss my opportunity
if now is the right time to start hacking.

Thanks - Kevin Cavanaugh

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Date: 11 Apr 1995 13:35:57 -0400
From: "Penn, Thomas" <penn#m#_thomas at msgw.vf.mmc.com>
Subject: Just Hops

Trip Report to Just Hops in Mt. Zion, IL

This is probably the latest trip report ever on the HBD, but I promised myself
that I'd do it (and I didn't want to let myself down).

While scanning the HBD in November and December, noting all the fancy trips
being planned by beer lovers to Switzerland, California, London, etc., I
contemplated my exciting excursion from New Jersey to Central Illinois.  Now
Central Illinois is not a brewer's fantasy, but I did remember that Just Hops
is in Mt. Zion, IL, just a stone's throw from my home town of Decatur.  If I
was going to drive 18 hours to get home, I could at least drop by.

I called Mark Kellums the day after Christmas to discuss hops, and he invited
me over to see his stock and pick some up.  After some bad navigation in the
barren winter fields, I arrived at the home of Just Hops.  Mark's business is
run from his home, and he greeted me and showed me his storage facilities and
packaging/brewing area.   The hops are kept in air-impermeable bags in large
freezers.  I bought small quantities of four different varieties, and Mark
showed me how he vacuum packs and seals the packages.  A friend of Mark's was
doing an all-grain mash that day, and he invited me to come see him.  I had to
hit the road back to NJ, but Mark sent me off with a bottle of Sierra Nevada
Celebration Ale.

Knowing that I had time to brew before returning to the grueling work week, I
picked up malt extract and yeast on the long drive home (knowing that the
local supply shop was closed for the weekend)  On Jan 2, I called Mark and he
gave me the recipe for a pale ale that my wife calls my "best ever".  

I love using whole hops!  They are easy to remove with a strainer, they don't
clog up those "over-the-bucket" nylon mesh filters, and are generally easier
to use than pellet hops.  The flavor results have been excellent, too.  Most
"new" things a brewer adds to the repertoire add steps-but using whole fresh
hops actually makes life easier!




Just Hops
Mark Kellums
335 Main Street
Mt. Zion, IL  62549

217-864-4216

No affiliation/Just a satisfied customer


Tom Penn
Bordentown, NJ


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:54:43 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Partial Mash Procedures

Can I treat regular malts in the same way I do specialty malts for my extract
brews?  (I.E. simply steep small quantities in slowly heated water)

Can I do specialty malts at the same time, or add them after mashing-out the
regular malts?

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Date: Tuesday, 11 April 95 15:20:55 CST
From: Alan P Van Dyke <llapv at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu>
Subject: PBS?

Howdy--

In HBD 1702, Jay Hersh sez--

"sory (sic) if this annoys you but in America we are still allowed the
 freedom to choose who we associate with. Subscription requests acceptance is
 based on several things. Maintaining a manageable size, maintaining discussion
 of desired quality and maintaning a Private and commercial free discussion.
 Think of it as the PBS of homebrewing..."

Gee, sounds more like the Junior League than PBS to me.  I don't remember PBS
ever basing their membership on anything but a pulse.

Alan Van Dyke           Austin, TX

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:35:28 -0500
From: fahrner at milbrandt.wustl.edu (Tim Fahrner)
Subject: Double Dragon



MClarke950 writes:

>>    FELINFOEL
>>    Double Dragon Export Ale 

>Whew.  I haven't seen Felinfoel here in Seattle for a couple of years.  I
>think 
>they were bought out by Thames Brewing. (My reason for saying this is that
>Thames started putting out Welsh ale around the time Felinfoel disapppeared
>from the shelves.  The packaging is also similiar.)  Before that (3-4 years
>ago? 
>They were forced to rename there beers because of copyrights, I believe. (ie
>Double Dragon became Welsh Bitter or Ale), sorry It's been a while.  I have
>never seen it in cans.  You might be able to get the address from Michael 
>Jackson's Pocket Guide.  Good Hunting.  Felinfoel made a good product.

I think you may be in error about Double Dragon Ale. Hard to believe that 
St. Louis would have a beer not found in Seattle, but that seems to be the 
case. Two Welsch pubs reside a few blocks down the street from where I work 
(yes, it's a terrible thing to bear).  Immigrants from Whales started them a 
decade or two ago, I believe. In any case, these pubs are still serving 
Double Dragon (or at least as of a couple of weeks ago) on draft. If taste 
tells true, I believe it is the same article it has always been. If someone 
else has bought Felinfoel, nothing seems to have changed, including the name.

Tim Fahrner
St. Louis, MO


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Date:         Tue, 11 Apr 95 17:51:37 EDT
From: marc <MJULIAN at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      san fran and monterey

help !!
I'm going to san francisco next week and I need information
about brewpubs in the san fran area..
any reviews and recommendations..??

help again !!

I'm moving to monterey in the summer... are there any
brewpubs in that area ???


any information can be sent to me directly at: mjulian at uga.cc.uga.edu

or can be posted directly to the digest...
thanks..

marc w. julian

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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 17:23:54 -0500
From: ddavison at earth.execpc.com (Dennis Davison)
Subject: 1st Round - Chicago - 2nd Call

2nd Call for Judges and Stewards.

April 28th & 29th. Midwest Invitational Brew-Off. Lot's O Beer and Lot's O
Fun.

Joseph Formanek - Please resend your message from Monday, my mailer fried
your mail.


- --
Dennis Davison       ddavison at earth.execpc.com        Milwaukee, WI

Judge Director of the 1st Round of The AHA Nationals - Chicago,IL 1995
Organizer - Real Ale Fest - Chicago - October 13,14 1995

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1705, 04/13/95