FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: DME for priming...get rid of ring around the collar? (Sandy Cockerham__Mc625__6-0412)
  Need hop growing advice (Will Self)
  priming with honey...almost disasterous results (soup-man) Campbell" <m950936 at holloway.nadn.navy.mil>
  Floral aroma and re-using Cascades ("Lee C. Bussy")
  RIMS programming (DONBREW)
  Hazards of Home Brewing (Jeff Hewit)
  HDPE Buckets (Philip Gravel)
  Line and Shales (Will Self)
  created a monster (Doug Flagg)
  Land of the Muddy Water Homebrew Competition (Wolfe)
  Growing barley (Bob Jones)
  AMYLASE ENZYME (McKee Smith)
  Brew Day (Reid  Graham)
  Green Mountain Mashers Results? (braddw)
  honey: priming with, buying (Carl Etnier)
  Brewing waters of the world (longish) (David Draper)
  Extract Brewing; Primary Break / Counterflow Chillers (Bob Sutton)
  Wyeast 1968 ("Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616")
  Bavarian Wheat Beer Yeast Recommendation (ROSS)
  Moravia III (MicahM1269)
  using buck wheat (FLATTER)
  RE: SNPA and dryhopping (david lawrence shea)
  torque/Brewery design-operations ("SOA::S29033")
  Re: 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off Results (Steve Zabarnick)
  95 Spring Thing Results (guyruth)
  Racking to 2 secondaries (Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2)
  Apology/Orange peel and infected wort summaries ("Crake_Kurtis_LT")
  Wyeast 3944 Belgium/White beer (M.Marshburn/D202)
  Optimal Starter Use (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  RE: Yeast, Hand Towels, RIMS (Jim Dipalma)
  RE The Secrets of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (Jon Binkley)
  noble hops & yeast question (A2J)
  Jay Hersh and PBS?? (uswlsrap)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 16:36:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandy Cockerham__Mc625__6-0412 <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at Lilly.com>
Subject: Re: DME for priming...get rid of ring around the collar?

Hi,
I have also noticed the ring around the collar effect of DME priming.
My question, has anyone tried making sterile primers with DME in 1 pint
canning jars?  If so, does the "ring" stay in the jar if you pour gently?
Secondly, is anyone else having the problem of posts disappearing?  I sent
one in about 2 weeks ago and it seems to have fallen into a cyberhole.
Thanks,
Sandy C.
(The scientist, homebrewer, and law student who figures she can always 
get a job with Jim Koch!  (just kidding guys.))

From: COCKERHAM SANDRA L            (MCVAX0::RX31852)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 18:02:34 -0600
From: wself at viking.emcmt.edu (Will Self)
Subject: Need hop growing advice

If I'm going to put out some hops this year I need to get a move on.  What
I would like to do is grow just one variety, one of the nobles.  I live
in Billings, Montana.  Our summers have been coolish with just occasional
hot days.  I have river water for watering, all I want to use (from the
Yellowstone River).  So, which noble hop should I try to grow?  What are
the various issues?  Are some more prone to disease than others?  Are some
more prolific?  I think I can get Saaz and Hallertauer from Freshops.  I
don't know offhand where I would get other varieties.

Will Self

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 20:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Midn John (soup-man) Campbell" <m950936 at holloway.nadn.navy.mil>
Subject: priming with honey...almost disasterous results

Hi again all,
	After all of the recent posts concerning priming with honey I 
wanted to give my own two cents worth.
	About two weeks ago I bottled a batch of honey wheat beer that 
turned out rather outstanding.  Albeit I am an extract homebrewer 
currently, it still was excellent!  Here's the recipe for all that are 
interested...
	1 3kg can Ireks wheat/barley extract
	1.5 lb clover honey
	1 oz Tetnang hops (3.4%AA ??) in the boil for 45 min
	1 oz Hallertauer hops (German) (4.5%AA ??) for last 10 min
	1 pkg Wyeast Weihenstephan Wheat variety

Well, I thought that I would be cool and prime with honey since this WAS 
a honey wheat beer...I ended up priming with about 2/3 cup of clover 
honey because my last batch of wheat beer primed with a 1/2 cup of honey 
was not effervescent enough...BIG MISTAKE

Thank goodness I had already drank a majority of the beer before the 
problems started occurring.  I had 6 champagne bottles of the brew left 
and went to get a bottle to chill...Well each of the bottlecaps on the 
champagne bottles became domed in an outward direction.  I was not 
worried that the bottles would explode...a 12 oz bottle probably would 
have, but I was worried that the bottlecaps would shoot off and fountain 
beer everywhere.  Well I ended up getting some champagne corks (reusable 
plastic) and wiring them on as I removed the bottlecaps.  This worked 
fine and I don't anticipate any further problems.
	I guess the point of my "thesis" here is that with just the 
increase from 1/2 to 2/3 of a cup of honey my beer was well 
overcarbonated!!!  I would like to suggest to everyone like me out there 
that is inexperienced with using honey to prime to BE CAREFUL!!!

Thanks Again for reading...

John E. Campbell
m950936 at holloway.nadn.navy.mil
U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Md.

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Date:          Sat, 8 Apr 1995 20:46:29 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Floral aroma and re-using Cascades

Whoaholdonwaitadamnminit!

I was misunderstood and hence when paraphrased made to sound like a 
complete idiot!  (I do this enough to be sure! :)

As far as the "floral taste" from Cascades goes.... I know I can't be 
the only judge in the world that has detected this.  For lack of a 
better way to describe it... _some_ beers that have been made with 
Cascades in an excessively long boil have exhibited a taste that for 
lack of a better way to describe it is what I would expect Channel #5 
to taste like.  This floral taste is disagreeable and I would fault a 
beer that displayed this characteristic.

To say that you are bothered by my statement tells me that you didn't 
understand it.  Al, I know you are probably a good judge and I 
wouldn't think to second guess you.  I'll tell you what.. the next 
beer I find with this characteristic I'll let you know and send you 
one.  I'm NOT knocking Cascades... in an American style Ale they are 
definitely acceptable and almost necessary.

You use the example that if I reduce the score of an American Pale 
Ale or a Stout because it displays a floral character then you 
disagree.  First of all, I think that I might not have explained the 
nature of the character and secondly, a stout with a floral hop taste 
is not quite true to style is it?  American Ales made with With 
Willamette hops do indeed exibit a similar character but not 
disagreeably so like the taste I am trying to describe.


Now to the re-using the hops thing.......

I know that 70% of the bittering value of the hops does not remain 
after the boil... I was using this as a for instance to support the 
idea of re-using the hops in the making of a "small" or second 
runnings beer.  It is absolutely correct to say that this is possible 
because bittering potential remains in the hops after the first boil. 
No, Noonan doesn't say that X amount of the original bitering will 
remain and IBU's may be figured on this.  I'm not going to brew a 
test batch and send the spent hops to the lab for analysis.  I domn't 
care that much.  The original question was can hops used for dry 
hopping be used again for bittering.  Yes.

This all brings me to my last point for today:  There has been a 
trend of late to dissect and anylize everything a person says and 
either prove or disprove to the nth degree or correct spelling and 
grammar.  Who the hell cares?  I'm not affected by whether or not a 
certain effect is called Venturi or Bernouli.  We get the idea.  If I 
cared that much for accuracy I would take gratefully whatever was 
offered to me and then use that as a basis for further research on my 
own.


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 23:03:36 -0400
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: RIMS programming

Chuck sez:
>Bill Machrone's (sp?) column in the February PC Magazine described a piece
of
>Radio Shack hardware which might just fit the bill for automating your RIMS
>system.
 ....
How about a RS catalog number?
I have seen such a thing from Digi-Key but more expensive.

Brew onward,
Don


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 22:23:59 -0400
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Hazards of Home Brewing



I started home brewing a little more than a year ago.  I've
brewed about one batch (5 gal) per month.  The beer I've brewed
is the best I've ever drank.  I was a regualr beer drinker before
I started home brewing, but I've become "more" regular since
then.  The bottom line is, I've gained about 25 pounds in the
past year.  I know it's not just the beer, but I know the beer
has helped.  Homebrew, with more body than regular domestic
beer, has to have more calories.  Add increased consumption due
to the enhanced taste, and you get a bulging waist.  I don't
intend to stop making and drinking homebrew, but this little
confession has, somehow, made me feel better.

- --
Jeff Hewit
******************************************************************************
Eat a live toad first thing in the morning and nothing worse
will happen to you the rest of the day.

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 21:24 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: HDPE Buckets

===> Aric Rothman asks about whether all HDPE plastic is food grade

>I've purchased two HDPE plastic buckets from a hardware store.  I intend
>to make a Zapap lauter tun.  Is all HDPE (white) food grade?  HDPE
>appears in raised letters on the bottom of the bucket, with no mention
>of whether or not the plastic is food grade.

Pretty much.  It shouldn't cause a problem.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 22:54:48 -0600
From: wself at viking.emcmt.edu (Will Self)
Subject: Line and Shales

I apologize for this morbid curiosity, but does anyone know
how Dave Line died?  Also Ken Shales?

Will Self
Billings, Montana

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Date: Sat,  8 Apr 1995 10:10:00 GMT
From: doug.flagg at chksix.com (Doug Flagg)
Subject:  created a monster


Timothy L. Burger needed some advise about Yeast Lab's American Ale
Yeast:

>Sunday morning I checked the starter expecting to see the airlock
>bubbling away but was shocked to see nothing.

What was the expiration date on that yeast?  I have noticed that Yeast
Lab has started labeling their yeast with a 6 month shelf life.  I
seriously doubt it will last that long (especially if not handled -very-
properly by the vendor).  I have had similar problems to the point where
I am very gun shy if the yeast does not seem almost brand new.

My local homebrew shop carries the Yeast Lab line rather than Wyeast (or
some other) so I am stuck unless I order by mail...and I've not had good
luck with viable liquid yeast by this method either.  Now I tend to use
dry yeast for my ales, and have cut back on the amount of lagers I brew.

Wish I had a good solution to the problem, but I don't.  Guess it's just
the nature of the beast.

Doug Flagg
doug.flagg at chksix.com

- ---
 * OLXWin 1.00 * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 95 09:20 CST
From: Wolfe at act-12-po.act.org
Subject: Land of the Muddy Water Homebrew Competition

*****      Land of the Muddy Water      *****
***** Homebrew Competition Announcement *****

The Mississippi Unquenchable Grail Zymurgists
(MUGZ) will hold an AHA homebrew competition on
May 6th in Rock Island, IL.  All AHA categories
of beer and mead will be judged.  For more
information about entering or judging,
contact Jeff Grillo at 309-786-2546
or via email at 72064.1256 at compuserve.com

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Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 07:59:09 +0900
From: bjones at bdt.com (Bob Jones)
Subject: Growing barley

Kelly Jones ask about sources of seed barley?

>I'm interested in planting some barley in the backyard garden this year.
>Mostly for aesthetic purposes; 

Couldn't help commenting on something I saw about 10 years ago. I has
visting a brewer friend and I noticed some barley stalks in a vase in his
garage. I ask him where they came from. He said out of his backyard. He said
he always throws his "spent grain" down the hill side and one day there this
stuff was growing. I was amazed. He actually had to take me down the hill to
prove to me that that was where the grain was growing. Now this brewer was a
single stage infusion masher, but still. That barley had some kind of zest
for life. 

So Kelly the answer to your question may be right there in that bucket of
malted, cracked, mashed and sparged barley you just threw out. 

Anyone else ever seen barley grow after its been mashed?

Bob Jones
bjones at bdt.com



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Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 12:02:02 -0500 (EST)
From: McKee Smith <MCKSMI at delphi.com>
Subject: AMYLASE ENZYME

I am going to start experimenting with some amylase enzyme I picked 
up from a mail order supply house.  I ordered it on a spur of the moment 
whim, thinking I'd figure out exactly how to use it after I got it.  Well ... 
I'm asking if anyone one one HBD has used the stuff?  If so, how much -- 
I'd imagine only very small amounts.  I'm also not sure whether to use it 
in the boil or add it to my mash.  

Thanks in advance for the advice!

McKee Smith                          Phone:        (214) 721-1558
Irving, Texas, USA                   EMail:     Mcksmi at Delphi.com
                                     Compuserv:        71660,2747



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Date: 09 Apr 95 21:09:55 EDT
From: Reid Graham <75037.1702 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brew Day

Our club is planning a brew day, where we all gather at one locale and spend the
day brewing. As this is sort of my project, I would appreciate hearing from
anyone who has attempted this sort of thing before.   If you or your club has
done this I would like to hear about how you did it, what problems you ran into,
and  most of all whether it was a success or not.

Reply to my compuserve address, or to the HBD would be appreciated.

Reid Graham

75037.1702 at compuserve.com


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Date: Sun Apr  9 21:41:36 1995
From: braddw at banjo.rounder.com
Subject: Green Mountain Mashers Results?


Does anyone have acces to the results of the Green Mountain Masers
competition from this past weekend in Vermont?

TIA,
Private mail is fine.

   
   **** ---- "There's always time for a Homebrew!" ----  ****
  C|~~| ----------------------------------------------- C|~~|
   `--'  --------------braddw at rounder.com-------------   `--'
          -------------------------------------------



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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 07:56:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier at abc.se>
Subject: honey: priming with, buying

Priming with: Just another data point for the great 
priming-with-honey 
discussion. I've only done it once, with last summer's spruce 
beer, and used 2 dl in a 23 l batch. The carbonation is just right. 

Well, almost. I wrote that and opened up the last bottle ;-(. It 
gushed vigorously, as a few other bottles have, when I think about 
it. _Almost_ all are perfectly carbonated, however, at least when I 
pour them. The funny thing is that even the few gushers become 
flat after a few minutes in the glass. This is the only beer this 
happens to me for, so it is not connected to dirty glasses or 
anything. Still, I suspect it is something other than the priming 
honey that does this--honey should affect _how much_ CO2 is 
produced, not how fast it comes out, I would think.

1 cup = 2.4 dl, 5 gal = 19.7 l, BTW.

Butying: I brew a lot with honey, both in beers and in mead. I have 
cultivated a good business relationship with a local beekeeper
(presents of mead go a long way) that has led both of us to 
discover a product we didn't know he had. When he processes his 
honey, he stirs it every day for a while and a sort of grade B 
honey rises to the surface, contaminated with bee legs, wax, and 
other things he doesn't want in the honey he sells. This he skims 
off and sets aside. Normally he just gives it back to the bees 
during the winter, instead of a sugar solution; now he sells it to 
me for half the price he sells his regular honey for.

Carl Etnier
Trosa, Sweden

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:50:29 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Brewing waters of the world (longish)

Dear Friends, about a month ago I asked for tips on the characteristics
of brewing waters for various styles, and got several very helpful
responses--thanks to Scott Bickham, Al Korzonas, Fredrik Stahl, and
another respondent who faxed me a copy of the water table from Papazian's
Companion, but whose name I have STOOPIDLY lost.  Sorry!!!  Below, I list
the collected data.  The bulk of them come from Fredrik's collection; 
and  a few other data were added from other sources, all as noted below the
table. I hope this info proves as useful to others as it has to me.

Quick comment--it can be argued that these days modern breweries treat
their water away from that of the old days, but I would suggest that
because the classic styles developed in these brewing cities largely
before such practices came to the fore, adjusting our waters to match
these profiles is defensible.

Now for The Data:
City		Ca++	CO3--	Cl-	Mg++	Na+	SO4--
Burton 1	268	275	36	62	54	638
Burton 2	270	197	40	60	30	640
Burton 3	295	300	25	45	55	725
Dortmund 1	225	221	60	40	60	120
Dortmund 2	250	550	100	25	70	280
Dublin 1	119	156	19	4	12	53
Dublin 2	118	319	19	4	12	54
D"usseldorf	40		45		25	80
Edinburgh 1	140	140	34	60	80	96
Edinburgh 2	120	225	20	25	55	140
K"oln		104	152	109	15	52	86
London City	90	82	10	6	22	24
London Well	52	104	34	32	86	32
Munich		75	148	2	18	2	10
Pilsen 1	7	14	5	2	2	5
Pilsen 2	10		3	4.3	3	4
Vienna		200	118	12	60	8	125

Data sources:
Burton 1	"Brewing & Malting Science", 1:206, Hough et al.
Burton 2	"Pale Ale", p58, Foster.
Burton 3	Papazian, Homebrewer's Companion
Dortmund 1	"Brewing Lager Beer", p55, Noonan
Dortmund 2	Papazian, Homebrewer's Companion
Dublin 1	"American Handy Book", 2:790, Wahl-Henius, 1902
Dublin 2	Al Korzonas
D"usseldorf	Source Unknown
Edinburgh 1	"Fermentation Technology", p. 13, Westermann and Huige
Edinburgh 2	Papazian, Homebrewer's Companion
K"oln		Bob Bloodworth, HBD 26 Jan 95
London City	"Fermentation Technology", p. 13, Westermann and Huige
London Well	"Fermentation Technology", p. 13, Westermann and Huige
Munich	 	"Brewing Lager Beer", p55, Noonan
Pilsen 1	"Brewing Lager Beer", p55, Noonan
Pilsen 2	"American Handy Book", 2:790, Wahl-Henius, 1902
Vienna		"Brewing Lager Beer", p55, Noonan

Finally, a couple days ago Fredrik asked about when water should be
treated, and Al responded with several suggestions that ranged from adding
to the mash to adding to the boil.  I would appreciate some additional,
gorily detailed commentary on this--my understanding was that it was the
mash reactions that were most important for having the proper water
composition (mostly from Dave Line's work).  Is it the protein 
coagulation that is to be enhanced by adding to the boil?  Flavor 
components from hops?  Let's hear it.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"We [HBDers] are like the Borg" ---Chris Geden
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 06:53 EST
From: Bob Sutton <BSutton_+a_FDGV-03_+lBob_Sutton+r%Fluor_Daniel at mcimail.com>
Subject: Extract Brewing; Primary Break / Counterflow Chillers



 Rob Emenecker wrote:

 >Is the stuff settling in my carboy considered the
 >cold break, hot break, what? <SNIP>
 >What are some of you extract brewers practical experiences with straining
 >wort?

 When you do partial boils, additional cold break occurs when the cooled
 wort is diluted with water in the primary. This break is insoluble
 protein matter formed as a result of the changing ionic character of the
 diluted wort. This formation will occur despite your straining set-up. I've
 used BOTH nylon filters and screens when I go from the boilpot to the
 fermentor. Generally...if I'm lucky...the filter wort leaves the funnel
 clear. However, once it hits the pre-charged water in the primary...instant
 precipitation :-(


 To avoid this formation in the primary, you will need to do a full boil
 (5 gal +)... assuming you effectively filter the cold break enroute to
 the primary.

 As mentioned by many on HBD, if your dealing with ales, porters, and
 stouts, the break should not noticeably affect the taste. Generally, I
 rack to the secondary on the third day to minimize exposure.

 IMHO, water flowing through a double cooling coil (one in the wort,
 and one in a bucket of ice water) is more effective in dealing with partial
 boils since you're cooling ~3 gallons. For larger lot sizes (>=10 gal), a
 counterflow chiller can significantly reduce cooldown time...until it plugs
 ;-)


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Date:     Mon, 10 Apr 95 8:07:50 EDT
From: "Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616" <wagnecz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Wyeast 1968

I was truly amazed at how quickly the London ESB 1968 ferments out.  I 
turned some loose on some 1.062 wort last sunday and by the following
Friday (5 days), the S.G. had dropped to 1.010.  Despite this torrid
pace, the fermentation was accomplished without the use of blowoff tubes!
A friend of mine (you out there Jon?) compared the taste this yeast creates
as being very fruity (so fruity that 1056 could be called nuetral in 
comparison).  That seems to be the case, but I'll be able to tell you
for sure after this has a couple weeks to age.  All in all, though, looks
like a real good performer.

			Glen

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:33:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: ROSS at MSCF.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: Bavarian Wheat Beer Yeast Recommendation

Date sent:  10-APR-1995 08:25:49 

	I'm going to brew a Bavarian style Wheat Beer soon and am trying to
decide on a yeast to use which will give me a good spicey clovelike flavor
that is typical of this style.  I've heard that some of the Wyeast strains
are problematic and don't give an assertive clove flavor.  I also just read
the posting about a sulfur aroma coming from one of the Wyeast wheat beer 
strains.
	So what's the best yeast to use?  Are there any others that are better
than those from Wyeast?


                        --- Andy Ross ---   
                     ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu   

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:10:41 -0400
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: Moravia III

All this talk about the Moravia III barley in the Coors commercial. While
this may be
an interesting approach to beer adds with the big boys, since the % of any
malt
is mighty low. The big C might be opening up for false advertising. It would
seem
that no one told the ad men that, about a year ago they began using a strain
of barley
know as Galena ( not to be confused with the hops). The Moravia III is no
longer being
cultivated ( so far as I know ) for agricultural reasons. The Moravia III was
reputed to
be an excellent brewing barley, and the Galena as well.

micah millspaw - brewer at large 

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:31:26 -0640
From: FLATTER%MHS at mhs.rose-hulman.edu
Subject: using buck wheat

The last time I was in the area health store I bought a couple of pounds 
of buck wheat grain.  My original thought was to combine it with the 
pound of steel cut oats I also bought to make a Belgian wit beer.  It has 
since   occurred tome that buckwheat pancakes are MUCH darker than whole 
wheat pancakes.  Does that mean buckwheat would make a darker beer too?  
I'd also like to know if I need to malt either of these grains.  I 
suspect that they both will need to be malted before mashing them.  Any 
opinions out there?
++++++++++++++
Neil Flatter                 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Chemistry - Math (CMA)       Department of Chemistry Stockroom Manager
Novell Supervisor            5500 Wabash Avenue 73
(812) 877 - 8316             Terre Haute, IN 47803-3999
 FAX: 877 - 3198             Flatter at Rose-Hulman.edu


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:17:12 -0500 (EST)
From: david lawrence shea <dshea at indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: SNPA and dryhopping

Thanks Jim for that information.  I too have recently discovered that dry
hopping helps me get closer to capturing the flavors of these great
microbrews.  I do have a question for all of the dryhopping veterans out
there.  I have dryhopped two different pale ales attempting to clone
Ballard Bitter and Redhook ESB.  I came very close to their flavor,
however, in both cases the hop flavor/aroma was a bit too sweet and too
citrus-like in its flavor. This flavor was the appropriate taste for the
beers, but it was too much, even after a month and a half of aging. I
calculated the proper amount of bittering hops needed and the grain needed
for the proper SG reading. For the Ballard bitter I used 3/4 ounce
Willamette hops(finishing) and 3/4 ounce Willamette to dry hop (for a
1.048 SG beer).  For the Redhook (1.054), I used one ounce of Tettnanger
(finishing) and an ounce Tettnanger to dry hop.  My question is this:
which of these amounts should I reduce, the finishing hops or the dry
hops.  I know dryhopping isn't supposed to add flavor, but the change in
taste was so dramatic when I dryhopped, I am not sure if this is true. 
BTW, the IBU's for those beers was around 32.  In a couple weeks, I want
to do a SNPA clone with dryhopping, so any advice would be greatly
appreciated. 

David L. Shea
Indiana University
dshea at ucs.indiana.edu


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Date: 10 Apr 95 10:20:00 EST
From: "SOA::S29033" <S29033%SOA.decnet at oscar.sea.sikorsky.com>
Subject: torque/Brewery design-operations

I just couldn't keep from putting in my 2 cents worth in on this lb-ft and
ft-lb subject.  They are indeed the same thing because of the commutative law
of multiplication.  
Now, to confuse things a little more...if one is dealing with lb-f and lb-ft
then there is a difference.  One is pound-force and the other pound-feet.  One
must be clear when writing their units because confusion on these seemingly
insignificant things may result in the collapse of bridges or buildings or
a variety of other nasty disasters (e.g. fermenters blowing up).  Personally,
my favorite unit of measure is furlongs per fortnight.

On the subject of breweries and brewery operations; can anyone suggest a
reference for starting a brewery describing the logistics involved in starting
and operating a brewery?  I bought and read a Microbrewers Conference book
from the AHA, found it interesting, but it was a little short on detail.  I am
interested in a typical brewery design and process control.  Brewery capacity
is not critical at this point - an article or text briefly describing
construction and operation of a 15 bbl system (or bigger) would be adequate. 
TIA.

Lance Stronk 


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:30:15 -0400
From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick)
Subject: Re: 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off Results

In HBD 1702 Chris Simon reported on the 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off Results

>17. Vienna/Oktoberfest/Marzen
>       1st - Steven Zabarnick, independent from Dayton, OH

Actually, I believe I submitted with my affiliation with DRAFT (Dayton
Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists).

Steve



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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 08:35:33 EST
From: guyruth at abq-ros.com
Subject: 95 Spring Thing Results


Below are the ribbon/medal results from the Dukes of Ale's 5th Annual
Spring Thing Competition.

============================ Automated Message ============================
There was a file attached to this message on the Bulletin Board System.
This file attachment has been routed in subsequent messages.
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 09:38:01 EST
From: Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2 at ccgate1.gsa.gov
Subject: Racking to 2 secondaries

    Regarding the racking thread - I've got a lot of 4-5 gal plastic 
 buckets and no carboys.  Can I rack from my 6.7 gal primary to two 4 gal 
 plastic containers or will I be forcing natural selection on the yeast in 
 my beer?  Iffen I can, would the rack still be performed when active 
 fermentation has subsided or at a later date?
    Thanks for the help.
 
                    Joe  -  JOSEPH.FLEMING at GSA.GOV


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 10:20:57 EST
From: "Crake_Kurtis_LT" <Crake_Kurtis_LT at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Apology/Orange peel and infected wort summaries

First, let me apologize for the double-posting that occurred with my 
question about bitter orange peel sources.  I didn't receieve the come-back 
message from the mailer, and assumed that my note bounced.  In the future, 
I resolve to have more patience.

*****

Many people were good enough to share their knowledge about the orange peel 
situation.  Several mentioned that the gentleman who operates the Frozen 
Wort (Charlie Olchowsky - apologies in advance for potential mispelling) 
has a different job in "real life", and is not always available to take 
calls and orders.  Three people mentioned leaving a summary of what they 
desired to purchase, their address, and a credit card number on his 
telephone answering machine.  They all received their merchandise.  My wife 
- -- who wanted the orange peel in the first place -- has decided to try this 
method.

Bill Arduser said that he thought bitter orange peel might be available at:

Beer & Winemaking Supply 
154 King Street  
Northampton,MA 01060
(413) 586-0150

Michael Froehlich operates a brewing supply shop.   He said that he 
normally doesn't do mail order, but that if I was really stuck, he would 
try to help me out.  He suggested e-mailing him to work out details.  His 
store is:

Stein Fillers
4180 Viking Way
Long Beach, CA 90808
 (310)425-0588

and his e-mail address is: froeh at thor.naa.rockwell.com.  His offer to 
conduct a mail-order transaction with me was private, but I asked if he 
might extend that offer to other brewer's having difficulty obtaining 
orange peel.  He might.  Ask him.

A couple of people cautioned against the temptation to use the peel from 
Valencia (navel  or seedless) oranges.  Apparently this gives the beer a 
"ham" taste.  I will definitely not try that.  Ham?   In beer?  Yeeech.

Only one person, rather well-known, added information about acceptable 
substitutes.  He said that one could use the peel from tangerines (I 
believe these are the same fruit as Mandarin oranges), but that the 
resulting beer would like the vegetal bitterness produced by the Curacao 
orange.  He did allow that when he brews a wit, he uses a 3:2 combination 
of Curacao to tangerine.  My wife has also decided to try this.  
Eventually.

I have no financial interests in these businesses, just trying to spread 
the word.  There must be others out there looking for this stuff.

*********

I recently asked another question, about viscous looking goop on my 
krausen.  Out of the ten responses I got, there was unanimous agreement 
that I shouldn't have pitched the first batch.  The line of reasoning was 
that once you've put all that effort into mashing, lautering, cooling, 
etc., you might as well make the small investment in priming and bottling.  
It might not be infected, and unusual smells and appearance are not always 
indicative of a serious problem.   Several people noted that some yeast 
strains have a tendency to develop the sort of appearance I described.  The 
American ale (Wyeast 1056) and Weinstephan (Wyeast 3068?) strains were 
mentioned by name, and those were exactly the strains I was using.  I am 
still convinced the first batch was actually infected -- there was a 
distinct rotten vegetable odor, and it was developing a sour-milk taste.   
I racked the second batch to a secondary fermentor, leaving the funny 
looking goop behind, and it seems to have been fine.  Smells, looks, and 
tastes OK.  I guess what I've learned here is that judging on appearance 
alone is not sufficient.  Use your smeller and taster as well.

Verbosely,

Kurt Crake
Crake_Kurtis_LT at hq.navsea.navy.mil     -or-
Kcrake at aol.com


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Date:     10 Apr 95  9:04:53 EST
From: M.Marshburn/D202 at cgsmtp.comdt.uscg.mil
Subject: Wyeast 3944 Belgium/White beer


Hello All

Mar 31 I made up my first White beer clone, 4lbs Pils and 4lbs red wheat. My
mash schedule was rest 117F 30 mins, 126F 45mins, 148 45mins. I put the 3944
yeast thru two starters so I had about 1 1/2 ozs of yeast. The og was only
1040 due, I think, to not mashing out, temp at pitching was 75F. 14 hrs later
the first indications of krausen appeared, later that night it started coming
out the airlock hole in my fermenter. I don't put the airlock in immediately,
I cover the hole with a clean, soaked in vodka rag. My fermenter is a 7 1/2
gal plastic container and from brew level to lid is a good 4 inches. Sunday
morning I racked to a glass carboy and attached a blowoff hose it kept the
hose full of gunk 4 days.  I removed the blowoff hose and attached the
airlock Saturday. Taking a sample for gravity measurement and tasting, the
gravity was only 1030! The beer has cleared up pretty well, the airlock still
bubbles 4-5 times a minute. Making as much foam as this brew has made I was
caught flatfooted by the gravity. Is this usual for the yeast? Did my mash
schedule not allow for enough yeast nutrients? The brew tasted pretty good
even though it was still sweet. The temp in the basement has been pretty
steady at 65F. Should I just let it go like it is, or is there anything I can
do to get the gravity down where it belongs??

m.marshburn/D202 at cgsmtp.comdt.uscg.mil


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Date: 10 Apr 95 09:47:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Optimal Starter Use

Sorry about the bandwidth use, but several attempts at private email
have failed.

In private email Michael writes (concerned about autolysis elsewhere in
the email):
>the past, I've assumed a starter must be used as soon as the
>yeast has flocculated (and built up maximum glycogen reserves) to
>achieve optimum results.  But, will my starter remain healthy if I wait up to
>two weeks before I pitch it?

No.  Waiting two weeks will not necessarily mean that the yeast will
begin to autolyse, but it does mean that they will use up a significant
amount of their glycogen stores for staying alive.  If you have to wait
a week or two, feed the starter with some more wort three or four days
before you want to brew and let them go through the whole cycle again:
fermentation and then flocculation.  They will have their peak glycogen
levels as they begin to flocculate again.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 10:47:54 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Yeast, Hand Towels, RIMS


Hi All,

In HBD#1701, Robert W. Mech asks: 

>Lastly, being the frugal brewer, im interested in constructing a 3 tier
>gravity fed system.  I know that a few places sell complete kits to do
>this, however im curious if building one would be cheaper.  Has anyone
>priced burners, etc?  Does it end up cheaper making your own setup or
>just purchasing one of the ones listed in Zymurgy, BT, etc.  I know I can
>get the kegs for the lousy $10 deposit (please, no legality flames) and
>constructing the rack itself shouldnt be too hard (have welder friends).
>Would it be cheaper to build this myself?

  If you have welding equipment, or friends who do, it is *definitely*
cheaper to build it yourself. 
  Last summer, with the assistance of a friend who owns welding equipment
and who has to be the World's Greatest Gadget Guy (hi Mac!), I built just
such a system.
  My system has two racks, one for the hot liquor tank, the other for the
mash tun. We used 1" angle iron to construct the racks, which was scrounged
from a junkyard. It took just one Sunday afternoon to cut, grind and weld
the racks. I spent another couple of hours cleaning them up with the wire
brush attachment on my drill, and painting them with a special paint that's
used for woodstoves and can withstand high heat. Cost: $6 for the paint,
and all the homebrew Mac and I could drink on a Sunday afternoon.
  All three of my brewing vessels, hot liquor tank, mash/lauter tun, and
brew kettle, are of the lousy $10 1/2 bbl converted Sankey variety. All
three are fitted with 1/2" NPT stainless nipples, held in place by
sanitary welds. These welds were done by a professional welder who normally
charges $50/hour, but who provided the nipples and did this work for a few
six packs of homebrew. Never underestimate the bartering power of homebrew.
Cost: $30 for kegs, and a few six packs of homebrew.
  For burners, the one for the hot liquor tank is of roughly the same size
and output as a Cajun Cooker, but is a homegrown model constructed from
bits of scrap pipe. Took about an hour to weld it together, including the
flame diffusion plate. It brings 13 gallons of water to a rolling boil in
about 25 minutes. I bought a high pressure regulator, hose, and fittings
for this burner from Metal Fusion (basically, it was the replacement part
for a Cajun Cooker) for $15. For the mash tun, I bought a low pressure,
multi-jet casting from Metal Fusion (part# WKAF2, price $15.50) and scrounged
a low pressure (5 psi) regulator from an old gas grill. This burner allows
for gentle heating of the mash during temperature step mashing. Total cost
for both burners: $30.50.
  I bought a false bottom for this system, made of perforated stainless steel,
and hinged in the middle so it can be installed and removed easily. Under
the false bottom, I installed a 1/2" copper pickup tube so that the wort is
drawn from the lowest point. The pickup tube is attached to the SS nipple via
a 1/2" compression fitting. Cost: $40. 
  A nice little piece of equipment that I added, but which is not absolutely
necessary to make beer with this setup, was a small pump. Magnetic drive,
food grade polypropylene(sp?) housing rated to 200F, 6 GPM, laminar flow,
the pump is suitable for use in a RIMS system. Addition of RIMS controls and
plumbing is the project for this coming summer, for now I use the pump to
rack wort from brewpot to fermenters, and to recirculate mash while the tun 
is being heated. Cost: $80.
  So, here's my outlay for this system:

  Pump          $80 (optional, but makes brewing easier)
  Kegs          $30
  Burners       $30.50
  False bottom  $40
  Paint         $6
  Propane tank  $10 (reconditioned, for rack burners)
  Misc          $50 (ball valves, hose barbs, clamps, hoses, etc.)
  ----------------------------------------------------------------
                $246.50

  Prior to building this system, I looked into commercial 3 tier gravity
fed systems and found most of them priced around $2000, some were even
higher. While some of these systems come with RIMS capability which mine
doesn't have, I figure if I can add the RIMS electronics and plumbing for
under $1800 or so, I'm still way ahead of the game. :-) 
  The obvious cost benefits aside, I got a great deal of satisfaction from
building brewing equipment from what was essentially junk. Also, I can
now brew 10-12 gallon batches with much less effort than I used to expend
to brew just 5 gallons. My brewing process now largely consists of lighting
burners, opening and closing valves and switches at the appropriate time,
and monitoring temperatures, it's far less labor intensive than before.

           Cheers,
            Jim               dipalma at sky.com


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:23:52 -0700
From: Jon Binkley <binkley at genome.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: RE The Secrets of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale


On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Jim Fitzgerald wrote:

> Yeast:
[deletia]

> I do have this
> culture from the bottle but I have never used it because from what I
> have read in some places it is a different yeast that they use to
> bottle condition, which I don't really think I believe, but I'm not
> willing to blow a batch of good beer either.

I don't know for sure that it's the identical yeast (though I've always
heard that it is), but I'm sure that you wouldn't be "blowing your
batch," unless you'd consider anything but a perfect clone to be
blown. I've tried very nice pale ales that were fermented by SNPA
dregs.

I noticed that you covered only three of the Big Four ingredients in
your excellent synopsis. Is there anything special about Chico's
water supply, or does SN do any special water treatment?

Jon Binkley



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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 11:37:35 EST
From: A2J at CU.NIH.GOV
Subject:  noble hops & yeast question

> 1. I just received my Noble hops from SA. Does anyone have a great
>    extract recipe I could use these in ?

Hmm.  These are the Hallertauer Mittelfrueh?  A German style would be 
appropriate.  Do you like any German styles particularly?  Lagers need cold 
conditioning.  Maybe a Weizen?

> 2. I was at our local brewpub and was talking with the brewer/owner.
>    When I told him that I was just learnig how brew beer he offerd
>    me free yeast. He said to just bring a jar and he would fill it up.
>    I'd be intersted to hear anyones thoughts on this. What kind of
>    container, how should I clean the jar, how much do I need, or is
>    just a bad idea altogether ? Does this stuff keep in the fridge?

I would use a canning jar and fill it half full of water.  I would boil this 
10-15 minutes.  Leave it sealed until you get to the brewpub.

Then go home and put it in the fridge until you are ready to brew.  I wouldn't
wait more than a week, though.  (I'm no expert, just antsy).

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 12:20:32 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Jay Hersh and PBS??                                              


Jay Hersh expounds on his electronic mailing list:

>said forum is commercial free and invitation only, targeted at advanced
>homebrewers, sory if this annoys you but in America we are still allowed the
>freedom to choose who we associate with. Subscription requests acceptance is
>based on several things. Maintaining a manageable size, maintaining discussion
>of desired quality and maintaning a Private and commercial free discussion.
>Think of it as the PBS of homebrewing...

I do not have any objection to the list, to his objectives, or the private
nature of the forum.  And I certainly value the desire to avoid blatant
commercialism.  But Jay is wrong, wrong, wrong, to call it the "PBS of
homebrewing."  Let's be more accurate and call it the Cable-TV, or even the
"Pay-per-view" of homebrewing.  A "PBS of homebrewing" would be public, not
private, and would be available to the broadest possible public, rather than
only to those with the money to pay, in the case of cable TV, or the experience
to be deemed "worthy" of "invitation" to the list.

Of course you have the freedom of association, and I would add, are under no
obligation to expend the effort to expand it to others.  But it's a
contradiction to use the PBS analogy when your goal is to be exclusive.

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
- ---THE INTERNET: Hardwiring the neurons of the global brain:---
                                      One geek at a time....
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1704, 04/12/95