FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Graham Wheeler (Andy Walsh)
  Can't get good hop aroma (Scott Bukofsky)
  green vs. brown glass ("Alan R. Burdette")
  RIMS-icle batch ("SOA::S29033")
  archives, bottle caps (PatrickM50)
  RE:RIMS cleaning (Jim Busch)
  lemon grass (HOMEBRE973)
  Gout and lead (Gary Bell)
  Re: Will my beer be OK? (spencer)
  mnash, kettle handle, A-B (HOMEBRE973)
  Digital thermometer recommendation seconded (Jeff Renner)
  Kegging commercial beer/Mash-Lauter Tun Question (ChipShabazian)
  aroma/taste/flavor (Dan Pack)
  na beer ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Dropping beer report (Jeff Renner)
  Great Maaple Brew-Off results available (Tom Keith)
  Molarity -> concentration -> conc. as CaCO3 (Bill Sutton)
  malt relationships (Nigel Townsend)
  Proper PH paper use / Handling crushed grains (Louis Gordon)
  Break in All-grain vs extract/re-kegging/typos (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
  Mysterious disappearances... (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
  flaked maize (wjgerth)
  beer talk (Jim Larsen)
  Re: Gelatin and Denaturing (harry)
  Digest Dropping? (Rich Larsen)
  What are steel-cut oats ? (Dave Adams)
  RIMS cleaning/kegging commercial beer ("SOA::S29033")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 19:30:19 EDT
From: awalsh at pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: Graham Wheeler

Hello.

This is a long post, so get ready with your <Page Dn> key
if the topic bores you.

Well this is a long overdue post on the thread a couple of months
ago on the Graham Wheeler books, "Brew Your Own Real Ale
at Home"(1)  and "Home Brewing The Camra Guide"(2). I intended 
at the time to post my feelings on these books, but never had them
handy to be able to make accurate reference to.. So now I have
the books at hand, I am at the computer, and have half an hour to
spare. So here goes.

Firstly let me state from the outset that I would not have bothered
posting this stuff were it not for the flames being directed at Mark
Garetz for his "Using Hops", which when it comes down to it,
possibly has some incorrect data on hop utilisation figures. If the
knowledgable brewer corrects these figures for his own technique,
equipment etc., it still contains a lot of useful information on hop 
varieties..

Around the same time of this Garetz bashing, people were quoting
Wheeler, generally with respect. I do not recall anyone criticising
Wheeler at all. Well that is about to change. My post could also have
been avoided if the books did not make such statements as, "Graham
Wheeler is the leading authority on home-brewing in the U.K."
(back of (1)) and "It is intended to be the definitive reference work on
the subject and bridge the gap between the amateur and professional
brewer" (p1 (2)). These are pretty hefty claims, which must be backed
up by solid content, if one is to remain free of criticism.

Let's start with his discussion on hop utilisation. "it is best to assume the
lowest probable utilisation efficiency of 20 per cent."..."EBU's only apply
to bittering hops...Late hops do not contribute much bitterness to the wort
due to the shorter dwell time in the copper." (pp46-47 (2)). In effect he gives
zero utilisation for hops that are not boiled for an hour or more. His figure
of
20% is similar to that of Garetz. If you make beer using Wheeler's numbers
you will make a beer that is more bitter than one made using Garetz's (because
of his zero utilisation for late hop additions). So if Garetz was criticised
for
having low utilisation data, why was nothing said about Wheeler, especially 
considering the claims made about himself in his books?
To be fair, he does say that utilisation is impossible to accurately measure
across all home-breweries as it is too dependent on a number of unknowns.
You will still make very bitter beer with his given numbers, however.

That is just the start of it.
On grains... 
"We (the British) have the best brewing barley in the world...
The barley grown in some other countries, such as America, and Australia,
is usually six-rowed barley and high in complex nitrogenous substances
such as protein. An excess of these will give rise to hazes being formed
in the finished beer and considerably reduce shelf life.The malt made from
such barley is well-modified, but is much higher in protein than is acceptable
for brewing purposes. The brewers in these countries tend to dilute the
nitrogen
content of their beers by using very high quantities of cheap, locally
available
unmalted adjuncts such as rice grits, maize grits, or sorghum grits." (p87 (2))


Six row malt is commercially unavailable in Australia. Australian brewers use
well modified low protein (10-12%), 2 row lager malt. The adjuncts he mentions
are not used. Cane sugar forms 20% of fermentable sugars, on average, but
this is used because it is CHEAP in Australia and has nothing to do with
nitrogen
levels. We grow tons of the stuff. This is just a clear case of misinformation.
On 2 other occassions he lumps American and Australian malt together as 
being "inferior 6 row strain". The above passage is the most damning, however. 

His "dropping" system was well-discussed earlier, so I shall not go into that.
However, it is well known that racking a beer off the yeast in mid-fermentation
will result in high diacetyl levels, especially if it is aerated in the
process. 
Diacetyl is produced when its precursors are expelled from the yeast cell
and are oxidised by oxygen in the wort. Thus it is formed *only* when free
oxygen is present, ie. at the start of fermentation,or when oxygen is
introduced
(eg. by dropping and aerating). Diacetyl is reduced by the yeast during the 
anaerobic stage: the more yeast there is, the more diacetyl is reduced. If
one significantly reduces the yeast population before the yeast has had a
chance to reduce the diacetyl, end result is more diacetyl. (BTW, I am merely
quoting Miller here). 
All this means is that dropping the beer will increase diacetyl levels. The
collective wisdom seems to generally be in agreement that diacetyl is
acceptable in English ales but not in continental lager. Well isn't it
interesting that his only comment he makes on diacetyl in his
"definitive work on the subject" is on p167 (2),
"It seems that a true lager is characterised by the taste and smell of
diacetyl and dimethyl sulphide. Diacetyl is a fermentation byproduct
and imparts a butterscotch flavour, whereas dimethyl sulphide is
derived from the malt and provides an eggy flavour and aroma.
Both flavours are considered to be faults in an ale, but not so in
lagers."
Clearly garbage. "eggy"? Perhaps he is thinking of H2S? Who knows?
Diacetyl in lagers is desirable? Sigh...

I won't go on about this book. On almost every page he makes 
some sort of strange comment, from "the best type of fermenting
bin is the tall, narrow, cylindrical variety" to his woeful section on
foreign beers (it seems added as an afterthought to his "reference
work").
I stopped reading the other book when I read in the introduction,
"his finished results are not hit-and-miss but come from years of
patient work in his kitchen and on his computer"
"some remarkable information has dribbled out (from the pro
brewers), including details of such astonishingly large amounts of
sugar being used in some beers that I will never again feel ashamed
of pouring Tate & Lyle (a brand of English sugar) into my homebrew;
with a bit of luck and a fair wind, it might end up tasting like Marston's
Pedigree.... Pedigree, despite its impressive gravity, is dangerously
subtle as a result of the high level of glucose"
So what do you find when you look up his recipe for Marston's Pedigree?
Yep, it's all malt.

So he must have something going for him. Well yes, I liked all his 
information on old English brewing practices, and I also like his sense
of humour. I find his technical knowledge deficient, and he really should
have stuck simply to a book on English ales, without making such wild
statements about himself. Miller makes no such claims, for example,
who really has a much better stake to that title than Wheeler does.
(ie. writing the "definitive reference work on the subject")
I also feel for the numbers of English homebrewers with greater
expertise than Wheeler (perhaps some are reading this now), who
could also lay claim to being "the leading authority on home-brewing
in the UK", but who do not have the clout of CAMRA behind them
to publish their own book.

So there, I'm done. And it took me 1 1/2 hours! 
I'll miss me dinner!



*****************************
////     Andy Walsh from Sydney
////     awalsh at ibm.net
////     phone 61 2 369 5711
*****************************

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 08:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bukofsky <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Can't get good hop aroma 

  I've brewed a great number of extract batches recently, but for the life 
of me I cannot get a good hop aroma in my finished product.  I have tried 
late additions and dry-hopping, but nothing seems to work.  In my most 
recent batch, I used 3 oz of EKG late in the boil (1 oz each at 30, 15 and 5 
minutes from the end), and dry-hopped with another oz of EKG for a week.  
The result: little hop aroma!!  
  Does anyone have any ideas on the causes of this problem?  I am 
careful to avoid aeration, I fill my bottles most of the way up to reduce 
headspace, etc.  Still I am aroma-impaired.

 -Scott  

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 08:07:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Alan R. Burdette" <aburdett at indiana.edu>
Subject: green vs. brown glass

The recent talk about beer bottle glass has raised a question in my mind:
Is there any meaningful difference between the light protection
offered by a green vs. a brown glass bottle?

Alan Burdette
Bloomington, Indiana
"An ihm Hopfen und Malz verloren"

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Date: 18 Apr 95 09:18:00 EST
From: "SOA::S29033" <S29033%SOA.decnet at oscar.sea.sikorsky.com>
Subject: RIMS-icle batch

Johnmaj at aol.com writes:

>> First a word of warning. My friend and I used the RIMS system, and were so
>>pleased with it we tried to make a bigger one. We tried to make a 1 barrel
>>system using a 106 quart cooler as our Mash\Lauter tun. We were using a 5500W
>>240v water heater element with 120v for approximately 1375 watt output. At
>>this power level it took 50 to 70 minutes to go from 122 to 158 degrees. Also
>>at this size of batch the famed temperature variation of  plus or minus .1
>>degree vanished.

I agree completely John, especially if you followed the Morris type design.
The Morris RIMS uses a 5500W, 220V element driven with 120V through a triac. 
Morris mentions that in this particular design will mash 8-10 gallon batches.
Extrapolating a bit, if it takes around 1200 watts with a 10 gallon batch, you
might need 5 times that (neglecting heat loss from the bigger mash tun) or 6000
Watts for the 50 gallon batch.  Not only that but your flow rate will have to
be higher because of the larger volume to prevent scortching and to distribute
the heat evenly through recirculation.  
In short, "making the mash tun bigger does not a bigger RIMS make".

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft
LStronk at Sikorsky.com  


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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:34:17 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: archives, bottle caps

 CGEDEN at  asks: <<<<<<<<<<

Does this PBS of homebrewing archive its postings somewhere where we
proles can read them?  Or do you need the secret decoder ring to translate
them?>>>>>>>>>

Re-read (or read!) the info at the beginning of every HBD.  It's that longish
bit of text that you zip by on your way to the first posting.

Jim asks Re: Bottle caps in the boil.  Tried this myself on Saturday in my
converted sankey 15.5 gal keg.  Didn't really seem to even out the boil 'cuz
the keg has a slightly rounded bottom and I think all 6 caps kinda slide down
to the bottom instead of spreading out.  I didn't notice anything different
in the boiling action pre or post caps.  HOWEVER!  The caps make a very nice
jingling sound that makes it very easy to *hear* how fast the brew is boiling
if it's covered or when you want to adjust the flame.  The caps seemed no
worse for wear after a 75 minute boil.  After all, I used to boil them anyway
prior to using putting them onto bottles and never had a problem.

Pat Maloney

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 10:16:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE:RIMS cleaning

Dion asks:

<Just a survey on how RIMS users clean their heater chamber.  I took
<mine apart this weekend and now I wish I hadn't.  There was brown fur
<on my heater element.  A judicious brushing of heater and chamber
<followed by hot water rinse, followed by CTSP recirculation and then
<final hot water rinse seems to have done the trick, but I would hate
<to have to disassemble it all every brewing session.  Anybody got any
<better ways of cleaning in place?

Im not a RIMS user, but Id advise that you find some brewing grade
caustic and use it at 2-4% concentration in 140-170F water.  Do not
boil this stuff, or allow it to climb above 190F.  I'd run the caustics
through the RIMS recirc. system for 10-20 minutes after each brew.

Wear gloves and be safe, caustics can be dangerous, blah, blah, blah...

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov
Colesville, Md.

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 10:14:06 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: lemon grass

Has anyone used or tried to use fresh lemon grass in beer possible in place
of bitter orange in Belgium White beer?

Andy Kligerman

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 07:48:38 -0700
From: gbell at ix.netcom.com (Gary Bell)
Subject: Gout and lead

In HBD #1695, Nathan Dalleska writes:

>In  the 18th century, Klotz tells us, gout was endemic to Britain, apparently
>due to the practice of storing port, sherry, madeira, etc. in lead crystal 
>containers.

Gout is a hereditary arthritic disease in which uric acid accumulates in the
blood causing damage to the joints. It has nothing to do with lead and,
contrary to popular belief, has nothing to do with overindulgence in food or
drink....thank God and pour me a beer!

- -- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Bell             "Laxo, non excrucio, poto cervisia domestica."
Lake Elsinore, CA  

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 10:32:58 EDT
From: spencer at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Will my beer be OK?

G. Garnett wrote about Re: Will my beer be OK? (HBD #1703): 
 > > TASTE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
 > ...
 > I tasted my hydrometer sample (right before pitching the yeast) and
 > was a bit concerned that I'd overdone the bittering ...

The bitter wort almost always is overhopped compared to the final
product.  If you've hopped in the kettle, there are still hop bits
floating around that will settle out.  Also, some portion of the
iso-alpha acids are "taken out" by the yeast when it settles.

In your case, it sounds like it was excessively overhopped, but you
still ended up with good beer with some aging.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 12:00:46 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: mnash, kettle handle, A-B

Sorry if this gets posted twice but I got no confirmation.
The thread on whether or not to mash specialty grains has been one of my
concerns  and brought up a year ago or so.  To me it would seem that if you
mashed crystal malts and carapils type malts in a full mash, the alpha
(?)-amylase would attach the some of the larger dextrins and reduce the
mouth-feel and perceived sweetness one was aiming for.  I still do a full
mash with crystal malts in the main mash because everyone one says to and
have no empirical evidence to support a separate mash as yet because I am too
lazy to do a controlled study.  Maybe this is a good project for a home brew
club.

Well the potential disaster almost happened to me.  I was attempting to boil
5 gallons of water to get ready for sparging and lifted my  5 yr. old 8
gallon canning pot by its handles onto the propane jet, and you guessed it,
the handle jetisonned (i.e., fell off).  Luckily the water was still cold and
not wort!.  So the net was right!

Finally, I toured the Anheuser-Busch plant in ST. Louis.  The size is
impressive but most of the tour is bottling and beechwood aging since most of
the usual touring place is closed until 1996 for renovation.  However, during
the tastings they had Mountain Elk Ale.  I was quite impressed, it was a full
bodied hoppy and malty brew.  I asked about it, and they said they make it in
New Hamster %^) at their specialty brewing plant from a recipe bought from a
microbrewery.  I told them it was much better than REd Wolf, Bud, Bud-ice,
Michelob, etc. but they looked disdainful.

By the way, the St. Louis Brewery had great cask conditioned ale!

Andy Kligerman
homebre973 at aol.com

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 12:51:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Digital thermometer recommendation seconded

In HBD 1698, Chris Barnhart <clbarnha at letterkenn-emh1.army.mil> said

>  I was busily scrounging around for an electronic thermometer for my
>  soon to be completed 3 barrel "Sabco type" RIMS system when I came 
>  across the following thermometer:>
>
>  Checktemp Digital Electronic Thermometer 
>  Range -58 - 302F 
>  3.3F cable w/remote SS probe 
>  Built in calibration test device (Alfa Aesar lists this, Techni-tool
>                                    lists a NIST calibration
certificate)
>  Available in Celsius and Fahrenheit versions.  
>  Price: $29.00
>  Sounded like a pretty handy thermometer and the price is right. 
>  I just ordered one from Techni-Tool out of PA (610-941-2400).  Alfa 
>  Aesar also carries the Checktemp but only sells to corporate
accounts. 
>  (No affiliation, blah, blah, blah) 

I ordered one and got it today (it was back ordered).  I am impressed,
and want to second Chris' recommendation.  The unit itself is about the
size of a pack of cards, with liquid crystal readout about 7/16" high,
~4-1/2" probe.  It's made in Singapore by Hanna Instruments.  I think
retail brew shops should ask their wholesalers to carry this.  I'm
really looking forward to using this.  Standard disclaimer.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 10:33:00 PDT
From: ChipShabazian <ChipS at 800sw.com>
Subject: Kegging commercial beer/Mash-Lauter Tun Question



David DiValerio  asks about transferring beer from a Sankey keg to 3 
Cornelius Kegs

About a year ago, I threw a bachelor party for a good friend of mine, and 
invited the owners of Santa Rosa Brewing Company (Who I had the miraculous 
stroke of fate to grow up with).  Needless to say,  Beer was only drunk 
after all the Hard Liquor was gone.  I was not going to waste what was left 
over, and successfully transferred the beer into Cornelius kegs.  You will 
need to transfer the beer just like you were using a Counter Pressure bottle 
filler, and I had to vent the Cornelius keg every five or ten minutes or the 
flow would slow down to a trickle.  Since I was using a closed system with a 
sanitized Cornelius keg, the wasn't much chance of contamination.  I then 
dispensed the beer just like my own kegged home brew.  Another option is to 
ask your local MicroBrewery if they will just sell you a Cornelius keg of 
their beer.  The Micro's around here sell 3 and 5 gallon batches in 
Cornelius kegs, or will fill yours for you.

Now my question:

I am building an all grain system using Sankey kegs.  I was thinking of 
using a cooler for the Mash/Lauter Tun and had some questions.  I believe 
the 10 Gallon Gott coolers would give me a better grain bed for filtration 
than the standard rectangular coolers, but heard from my local store that 
some people have problems sparging 10 gallon batches in them because the 
grain bed is _too_ thick.  What is the consensus from those of you out there 
using Gott coolers for 10 gallon batches.  How about the rectangular 
coolers?  What about comments on different types of filters, the two I am 
aware of are copper pipes with cuts every 1/4 inch, and screens (either 
commercial or homemade).  Has anyone tried both different types of filters? 
 Which one was more effective?

Either post to the HBD or private E-Mail and I will summarize and post if 
anyone is interested.

TIA

Chip Shabazian
chips at 800sw.com

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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 10:58:50 -0700
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject: aroma/taste/flavor


David Shea writes:

>hops.  I know dryhopping isn't supposed to add flavor, but the change in
>taste was so dramatic when I dryhopped, I am not sure if this is true.

to which Norm Pyle responds:

>Not supposed to add flavor?  Do you mean "not supposed to add bitterness"?  I
>don't much distinguish between aroma and flavor, as the two are so tightly
>coupled, but in my mind, dry hopping adds flavor and aroma, in a big way.  So

Absolutely right, Norm.  I think I've seen this discussed in the digest
before, but just a reminder.  *Taste* is comprised of only four components:
sweet, bitter, sour and salty.  Your sense of *smell* or *aroma* is
capable of distinguishing MANY different smells (thousands, I think).
So, the perception of *flavor* is a combination of taste and aroma.
Since your nose is sensitive to a much wider array of compounds than your
tongue, anything which changes the aroma of your beer (dry-hopping) will
have an impact on the flavor.

Dan

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Date: 18 Apr 1995 10:52:10 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: na beer


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  na beer
Date: 1995-04-18 12:39
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


cheryl asks about na beer, and it inspired me to share my recent experiment
with this 'style'. my father is no longer able to consume alcohol, and has
become quite the partaker of na beer. as a rule, the americans are again way
behind the europeans in terms of quality. i wanted to homebrew a beer that
he could drink AND enjoy.

so, i attempted to create a na beer from carapils (dextrine) malt. i made a
1-gallon batch as follows:

1/2# carapils (mashed by 'steeping' in 1 gallon of water as it heated)
1/2oz hallertau hops (3.1% alpha, 15 min boil)
1/2oz hallertau hops (3.1% alpha, 1 min boil)
1 packet of ale yeast (dry, forgot to note the brand)

i let this sit for about two weeks in a gallon jug with an airlock at room
temp (about 70f) - no airlock activity. it took two weeks to 'clear' enough
to comfort me that it was time to bottle. i used 1 oz corn sugar in 1/2 cup
water to prime. OG was 1.010, FG was 1.009 (well within the repeatability of
the test, i believe).

well, my father visited for easter, and rated the beer to be as good as the
european versions he has come to enjoy. a homebrewing buddy of mine also
enjoyed the taste, and wants to make a batch for himself for the summer
afternoons when he needs to retain his 'composure'. the beer primed
wonderfully. the only drawback is that the sediment does not become 'firm',
and is difficult to keep from the glass when pouring from the bottle.

any suggestions on improvements are welcome. Wade.


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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 14:47:34 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Dropping beer report

In early February, Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> started a
thread about "dropping" beer, a traditional English technique
recommended by Wheeler and Protz (1993. Brew your own real ale at home.
ISBN: 1-85249-113-2).  I won't repeat the thread here, but the process
involves racking off the actively fermenting beer *with* aeration
halfway through the fermentation, leaving behind dirty head, trub, and
sedimented yeast.  Gillian Grafton said it made a great improvement in
her beer, but she didn't aerate, not realizing that was part of the
recommended process.  Several more posters assured us it was.  I have
not seen any followup from anyone who has subsequently tried this rather
surprising procedure.  So I will report my experience.

I brewed a 7.75 gallon all grain ordinary bitter (OG 1.037) and pitched
the settled yeast from a 1 liter starter of YeastLab A03 London
(Whiteshield) yeast.  It had fine bubbles at 18 hours and kraeusen at 24
hrs. (64^F).  I "dropped" it with some aeration at 44 hours, leaving
behind lots of trub, plus the dirty head and sedimented yeast.  There
appeared to be plenty of suspended yeast, and the fermentation never
faltered - it continued to push bubbles through the air lock.  I reduced
the temperature to 54^F at 11 days, kegged two days later.  The yeast
sediment was very clean.  The beer is as nice a bitter as I have ever
brewed.  Very clean, better hop aroma and flavor than with similarily
brewed, undropped beers, but these were not exact duplicates (I can
never brew the same recipe twice).  It was drinking very well 15 days
after brewing.

I then took ~1 cup slightly settled yeast slurry from this secondary and
pitched it into a 5 gallon batch of 1.039 draft Guinness clone (based on
Dave Sapsis' recipe).  Because this fermented so quickly (high kraeusen
at 16 hours), I dropped it 26 hours with more aeration this time
(swirling from the siphon into a large funnel which dropped the beer
into a carboy).  This beer also continued active fermentation with no
pause.  I racked with gelatin at 7 days and kegged a week later, and was
drinking it the next day (forced CO2).  It tastes great, a real ringer
for the real thing (thanks, Dave).

Neither beer has any unusual diacetyl or esters,  They both have a nice,
fruity acidity (like a crisp apple or grape) that is appropriate for the
styles.  Strangely, the stout finished at 1.018, but it doesn't taste at
all sweet, just nicely bodied, esp. for OG 1.039.  Dave says that
sometimes they just finish high.  I suspect is is residual
unfermentables from the flaked farley and fairly finely ground roast
barley (British).  I don't know what the FG of draft Guinness is.  I
should take the FG of the bitter, but I haven't.  It certainly doesn't
seem at all high.

Perhaps as remarkable as anything else about these two beers is how
smooth they both tasted with no age at all.  Thanks to Brian for
introducing this technique, and to the subsequent commentators.  It will
be SOP for me with British ales from here on.  

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 15:06:57 -0500
From: nr706 at mcs.com (Tom Keith)
Subject: Great Maaple Brew-Off results available

To avoid wasting bandwidth:

Results of the First Annual Great Maple Brew-Off (beers and other brews
made with genuine maple syrup) are available at:

http://www.mcs.com/~nr706/maple.html

includes Best-of-show recipe and many other homebrew links.

- ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
Tom Keith                  |  Advertising, Promotion and New Product |
Thomas Keith & Associates  |  Development for smaller companies and  |
1016 Mulford Street        |  smaller divisions of large companies.  |
Evanston, IL 60202-3317    |   Now! Multimedia and WWW development!  |
voice:  708-328-1282       +-----------------------------------------+
Fax:    708-328-2242       |         check out our Web page          |
e-mail  nr706 at mcs.com      |  http://www.mcs.com/~nr706/home.html    |
- ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+




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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 17:28:42 EDT
From: Bill Sutton <wrs at hpuerca.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Molarity -> concentration -> conc. as CaCO3

Don't get too excited that this is a technical post, I've just
had my week's worth of stupid pills and can't figure this out.

I recently got Dr. Fix's _Principles of Brewing Science_ and got very
confused by the first set of conversions.

On (page 18? I'm at work, so I don't have it in front of me), Dr. Fix
states that:

   [x] * GMW(x) * 10^3 = concentration of x in mg/l

where [x] is molarity of x, GMW(x) is Gram Molecular Weight of x.

In a following example, he shows that a .001 M solution of HCO3 would thus
have a concentration of:

   .001 * 61 * 10^3 = 61 mg/l

We want to express this as concentration of CaCO3, so we substitute the
GMW of CaCO3 in the equation, giving:

   .001 * 100 * 10^3 = 100 mg/l as CaCO3

This is all fine and dandy and makes sense. However, the very next
statement says that in general:

   [x] * 10^3 = concentration of x in mg/l as CaCO3

and this equation is used on a later page to show the concentration of 
OH- and H+ is negligible.

BUT .... how can [x] * 10^3 = [x] * GMW(CaCO3) * 10^3?

I've reread this a couple of times and I know I am forgetting some very
stupid principle of chemistry, but I can't work it out.

Please email me and save me from public humiliation ;-)


Also (and perhaps this is later in the book, we'll see as soon as I get
past this mental block), why are we expressing these in terms of CaCO3?
Is it because CaCO3 is the precipitate we wish to create in order to remove
the carbonates and their effects, and this number tells us how much CaCO3
we need to create in order to do this?

I thought I remembered my chemistry, but I guess 15 years is longer than
I thought.

TIA,

Bill

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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 10:42:16 +1000
From: nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Subject: malt relationships

I have ben primarily a user of liquid malt extracts (kit form).

I now wish to experiment further, but do not wish to go the whole way with
brewing from the grain, yet.  However I wish to experiment further than
possible with prepared liquid malt brew kits.

I am therefore researching the options of using dried malt extract in lieu
of liquid extract.

I have a number of recipes designed for whole grain which I would like to
try, using dried malt extract.  Now, the question.  Is there a reasonably
accurate relationship between the amount needed of whole grain, liquid malt
extract or dried malt extract to obtain a similar result?

For example would you use 6 pounds weight (lbs) of say pale malt grains to
get a similar result as 4 lbs of a liquid pale malt extract or as 3 lbs of
dried pale malt extract?  (the above figures are hypothetical!)

Thanks for any advice.  I suggest that responses are on the HBD as it could
be useful to a number of people.

nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au
Nigel Townsend
Tasmania, Australia





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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:51:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Louis Gordon <lougord at execpc.com>
Subject: Proper PH paper use / Handling crushed grains

I had 2 questions come up as I was brewing today.
1) I use PH paper. After I dip the paper into the liquid, it takes about 
2 seconds for the liquid to satuate the paper and a color to settle in. 
However, if I then hold the paper for another 10 seconds, it slowly turns 
redder and redder indicating a higher PH number. Is the actual PH the 
initial reading.
2) I use a corona mill for cracking my grain. I always get a small amount 
of flour with the cracked grain from grain that was crushed. I then shake 
this grain in a mesh strainer over the garbage can to get rid of the very 
fine crush. My question is whether I am gaining anything by getting rid 
of this finely crushed grain.
Louis Gordon               Bloomington, MN

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Date:          Tue, 18 Apr 1995 22:52:13 +0000
From: "Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Break in All-grain vs extract/re-kegging/typos

in HBD 1708...

>> MMMST40 at vms.cis.pitt.edu asks about extra break from all-grain/mixed 
>>batches vs extract only...

Keep in mind that an extract is just an all-grain batch that has been 
condensed/concentrated.  The break material has been removed by the 
manufacturer.  Due to this, I would expect partial/all-grain batches 
to always generate more break material than similar extract-only 
batches.

>>David.Divalerio at f165.n260.z1.fidonet.org (David Divalerio) asks...
>><Snip>  Does anyone know if there would be a
>>problem with buying a keg of commercial beer and draining it into 3
>>cory kegs.

No problem at all. connect the oulet of your commie keg to the inlet 
of your cornie (one at a time, please!) , apply pressure (CO2 
preferably) to the commie, and occasionally vent the cornie. This 
will transfer the beer in a manner similar to counter-pressure 
bottling - the same method I use when filtering my beer. I'd also 
recommend a CO2 purge of the receiving cornies prior to the 
transfer...

>>Lee Bussy sez hgdtiuyj9yti....
Ouch! Somebody hit your fingers with a hammer?  ;^)

(I know: shame on me! Tee, hee!)

"Drink all you want; I'll brew more..."
Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock * "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock at oeonline.com    *  end of your day as every sentence requires 
usfmchql at ibmmail.com     *  proper punctuation." - PGB

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Date:          Tue, 18 Apr 1995 23:04:29 +0000
From: "Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Mysterious disappearances...

Also in HBD #1708:

>> Bob Sinnema <rjsinnem at acs.ucalgary.ca> reports on the mysterious 
>> disappearance of everything in ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/...

I noticed that, too. Also, that HBD's 1706 and 1707 never made it into my 
reader?!? In private e-mail, I was told the Sierra site also slipped 
into a virtual twilight zone (but, I'm told, has blipped back into 
cybereality).  

Anybody have a clue? These cyber-quakes are giving me apoplexy...

Thank God for the archives at Spencer's Beer Page. Have to commend 
him for keeping it so up-to-date! If you ever 'lose' your digest, that's the 
place to look.

(We now return you to your normally scheduled program...)
Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock * "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock at oeonline.com    *  end of your day as every sentence requires 
usfmchql at ibmmail.com     *  proper punctuation." - PGB

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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 07:44:09 EDT
From: wjgerth at tacl.dnet.ge.com
Subject: flaked maize


I have got a bunch of recipies that call for flaked maize. I asked my local 
shop if they have any and they didn't even know what it was. I would like 
some help on either where I can buy some or some information on how to flake
corn?                 

                                  TIA,
                                  Bill Gerth


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 07:17:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Larsen <jal at gonix.gonix.com>
Subject: beer talk


                         Beer Talk
                            with 
             Burp and Belch the Bruit Brothers
 
 
Burp: Hello, you're on Beer Talk.
 
Caller: Hello. My name's Justin from Cleveland. I just want to say I love 
your show. You guys are great!
 
Belch: Are you sure you have the right station?
 
Caller: Yes, of course.
 
Burp: Well, what's on your mind?
 
Caller: I just made my first brew, a pale ale from Charlie Papazian's 
book, and he said to add 2 pounds of gypsum to the boil. Well, the 
homebrew supply store was out, so I ripped a sheet of dry wall out of 
the garage, ran it through my wife's KitchenAid flour mill, and dumped 
it in the fermenter. Did I ruin my beer?
 
Belch: No, your beer should be fine, but you probably ruined the 
KitchenAid.
 
Burp: I'm going to have to disagree with my brother on this one.
 
Belch: Like that's something different . . . 
 
Burp: The KitchenAid is fine; your beer is shot. It will leave a 
calcium film on your fermenter, your racking hose, your bottles, your 
glass, your teeth, and your GI track.
 
Caller: Thanks, guys.
 
Belch: Good luck with your beer.   Hello, you're on Beer Talk.
 
Caller: Hi, this is Bob from New Jersey. I heard a rumor that you two 
are really Al Korzonas and Mark Garetz. Is this true?
 
Burp: What? How could you make such a claim? Compared to us two, Al 
and Mark love and respect each other. Next caller. Hello, you're on 
Beer Talk.
 
Caller: Hi, this is Dave from Salt Lake.
 
Burp: Salt Lake? Is beer even legal in Salt Lake? 
 
Caller: Yes, but homebrewing isn't.
 
Belch: Gosh, that's too bad. I guess you'll have to move. Do you have 
a brewing question?
 
Caller: Ya, well hypothetically, if one wanted to brew a Hamm's clone, 
how would one go about it?
 
Burp: A Hamm's clone? Are you out of your mind?
 
Belch: Wait a minute here. Give poor Dave a break. He's surrounded by 
Mormons and hasn't yet learned what good beer is. Are you sure you 
want to brew this, Dave?
 
Caller Ya, I'm sure, my girlfriend loves the stuff.
 
Belch: OK, start with 3.3 pounds of bear piss extract, lots of water, 
and force carbonate to 5 volumes CO2. That's all it takes.
 
Caller: Thanks a lot, guys.
 
Belch: You're welcome. Next caller. Hello, you're on Beer Talk.
 
Caller: Hi, this is Bob from New Jersey. I heard a rumor that you two 
are really Jack Schmidling and Jay Hersh. Is this true?
 
Belch: Knock it off, Bob. Next caller. Hello, you're on Beer Talk.
 
Caller: Hi this is Gina from St. Paul. 
 
Belch: Hi Gina. Let me guess, you spell your name with a J and two Es.
 
Burp: No, dummy. It's G-I-N-A, just read the screen. Well, Gina, what 
can we do for you?
 
Caller: I have a case of 1991 Barleywine that's been aging in my 
cellar at 53 degrees Fahrenheit. It started at 1.100 and finished at 
1.035. I brewed it with 28 lbs M&F pale malt and 70 IBUs homegrown 
goldings. I pitched a pint of active slurry from a Traquair house 
culture a friend picked up from the brewery. Do you think this is 
still good, or should I pour it out?
 
Belch: This batch sounds ruined. It's probably an environmental hazard 
at this point. I recommend packing it carefully with lots of padding 
and shipping it to me for proper disposal.
 
Burp: Don't listen to this guy. Ship it to me.
 
Belch: You stay out of this. It's my call.
 
Burp: Hey, you have . . .
 
<click>
 
Belch: Gina? Gina? Wait come back, Gina! Well, what do you think of 
that?
 
Burp: See ya later, I'm on my way to St. Paul.
 
Belch: Wait for me.
______________________
 
Apologies to Tom and Ray Magliozzi



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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:18:21 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Re: Gelatin and Denaturing

        Just one more request from someone who always thought that
denaturing was a euphemism for circumcision: Does all this organic
chemistry change the common wisdom, or is the rule still not to boil the
gelatin but to dissolve it into warm water instead?




Harry

 ..............................................

"A man's got to know his limitations"
 ..............................................



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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 08:24:23 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Digest Dropping?

A question about the Digest.

Why am I dropped every so often from the subscription list?  I was dropped 
in January and again last week.

=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
  Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:44:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: dadams at wellfleet.com (Dave Adams)
Subject: What are steel-cut oats ?


In the few Oatmeal Stout recipes that I have seen, they all
mention 'steel-cut' oats.  I am guessing these are different 
than your basic Quaker Oats, but am unsure.  

If they are different, where is a good place to look for 
these(in the Supermarket none of the Oats specify `steel-cut').

Thanks,

Dave Adams

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Date: 19 Apr 95 10:55:00 EST
From: "SOA::S29033" <S29033%SOA.decnet at oscar.sea.sikorsky.com>
Subject: RIMS cleaning/kegging commercial beer

Dion Hollenbeck asks how to clean a RIMS without taking the heater out of the
tube and disconnecting hoses etc.  I have not figured out a way yet.  I just
cleaned mine this weekend after mashing 2 batches and found the same thing -
the brown fur on the heater element and who knows what on the inside of the
heater tube.  I don't think that the pump will provide enough flow to blast the
fur off the element and the inside of the tube.  Maybe there are some chemicals
that can do the job but I have not experimented yet.  I thought the best way
would be to design the RIMS so that the heater tube and element can be serviced
easily.  My next RIMS design will incorporate this ease of disassembly - as it
is now, I have to disconnect wires (sensor and power), hoses, and the heater
tube mounting.  
David Divalerio asks about transferring commercial beer into corny kegs.  I am
sure it can be done.  I transfer from corny keg to corny keg, esentially using
the first keg as a secondary fermenter.  I make sure the empty keg is clean
(using bleach or some other solution).  Then, I purge the air from the keg by
putting CO2 into it empty - I say purged but actually I want a layer of CO2
between the beer and the air trapped above it.  Since CO2 is heavier than air
this happens automatically.  I then start to transfer the beer by putting
pressure on the full keg (with the liquid hoses connected) while slowly
relieving pressure in the keg to be filled.  This is necessary since both kegs
will eventually reach the same pressure and flow will stop.  

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford CT.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1710, 04/20/95