FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  got dropped/primary explosion ("Thomas Lajoie")
  Enzymes and brewing hi-alcohol beers!! (kevin)
  Homebrew Competition (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
  Dinged enameled pot ("Troy Howard" )
  IBU measurement questions (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  AI Robot (Kelly Jones)
  S/N ratio >> 65 dB (Dan Pack)
  There will be no Who's Who. (David Draper)
  Re: Homebrew archives ("Philip Gravel")
  Yes, gelatin again. Last, time I promise. (Pierre Jelenc)
  fruit in beer (Mark Ruhe)
  artificial sweteners in beer (Tom Keith)
  Brewery Web Sites (Aaron Shaw)
  gelatin, agar and enough of Wheeler (Andy Walsh)
  Stainless vs. brass (Anatum)
  Burner/Aluminum/Mosher Book/pH paper/.Z ("Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556")
  subcription information (Leo Christoffer)
  CO2 (Lance Stronk)
  Mini Keg Bombs (Overcarbonation) (Ben Rettig)
  Conditioning Casks (Jim Grady)
  Coyote??? (Robert Schultz)
  CO2 purging of kegs, was co2/air mixtures (Jeff Renner)
  mash brewing time (Btalk)
  HopBack onto the HBD (Scott Howe)
  10 gal Gott does work excellent! (I stepped inside and didn't see too many faces  26-Apr-1995 1147 -0400)
  Microwave sterilization/Yeasty beer (Robert Parker)
  CO2 Rises(?) ("Dutcher, Pier")
  NA revisited ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  fermentap ? (jehartzl)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 11:24:56 EST
From: "Thomas Lajoie" <lajoiet at CC.IMS.DISA.MIL>
Subject: got dropped/primary explosion

     Hi,
     
     I'm new to the homebrew world, and the guy that got me started also 
     gave me the address for HBD.  In the few short weeks I've been getting 
     the postings, I've learned alot, albeit I'm only a extract brewer.  I 
     was also concerned with getting dropped, and I have to agree with Dave 
     Ebert that the filter is skewed to keep some of the whiners and to 
     boot those of us short on brew knowledge who are just looking for a 
     good source of info!?!
     
     All that aside....the real purpose for writing.
     
     I recently brewed John Campbell's Honey/Wheat recipe from HBD# 1705 (I 
     don't plan on priming with honey though!!)  It went into the primary 
     bucket Sunday and seemed to be fermenting nicely.....BOOM!!  Tuesday 
     morning my airlock and lid had launched.  I noticed that there was a 
     foamy residue approaching the top of the bucket, and this apparently 
     clogged the airlock, causing the explosion??  Anybody got any 
     suggestions on how to avoid this in the future??  Is my batch ruined 
     or just stick it out and wait??
     
     Also anyone have a good Holiday recipe using maple syrup and/or maple 
     sap(in the place of water)?? I figure I better start early.
     
     Thanx,
     
     Tom


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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:48:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: kevin at wheels.aar.com
Subject: Enzymes and brewing hi-alcohol beers!!


I recently asked a question about a packet of "pilsner enzymes" that was
contained in a brewkit I had purchased.  I have come accross quite a bit
of useful information in regards to enzyme use at fermentation time, and
thought I'd share it.  Some of this was sparked by Collin's stuck 
fermentation that was revived by the addition of enzymes, that resulted
in an FG of 1.008!

In trying to figure out why the Mexican brewkit (from Brewmart) had this
packet of enzymes, I found two brief comments about enzyme use at 
fermentation time.  One was regarding a variety of Wyeast that had enzymes
to produce low SG, and high alcohol ferments, and another one in a book
that mentioned using enzymes to help revive stalled/stuck fermentations.
That was a TOTAL of two sentences that I could find - the subject just isn't
covered well!

I tracked down the manufacturer of enzymes I used back when I had a distiller's
permit to make fuel alcohol in the early 80's.  I have obtained technical
literature, and have also ordered enzymes (food grade) to use in my homebrew
effort.  In the literature, it repeatedly speaks of using them (especially
enzymes containing BETA-amylase, in combination with alpha-amylase) in
brewing low carbohydrate (i.e. "dry") beers of high alcohol content.  :)

Knowing this, it dawned on me that the two batches of beer I have that
stopped fermenting could be stuck because they had run out of fermentable
sugars, and this could be corrected by the addition of enzymes!  However,
our local brew store doesn't sell any :(  In desperation, I decided I 
would extract active enzymes from high enzyme malted barley.  

I ground 10 oz of malted barley, and tried to keep the temperature below
the breakdown temp of beta-amylase (which begins to breakdown at 149F,
and even more at higher temps).  I extracted it by heating it for 15 minutes
at 140F (60C).  I obtained 20 oz (600ml) of "extract".  

I had two stuck fermentations.  

#1) 6 gallons stuck at 1.042  (stuck for over two weeks)
#2) 1 gallon stuck at 1.012   (and should go down to 1.002).

I added 5 oz (150ml) to #2, and 15 oz (450ml) to #1.  Both began fermenting 
within 2 hours!  24 hours later, #1 was at 1.032, and #2 was at 1.004, and 
both hadn't reached peak fermentation yet!  It has been several days now, and
the fermentation has pretty much slowed to a snail's pace.  The SG's are
now: #1 = 1.020, and #2 = 1.002.

I considered batch #1 as a loss, and so the addition of unpasteurized
enzyme extract was a risk - but I only had to gain by it!  BTW, #1's
OG was 1.090 - I wanted STRONG beer :)

*************************************************************************
I have two conclusions from this:

#1) If you want high alcohol beers - add enzymes at fermentation.

#2) If you have a stuck fermentation - add enzymes to possibly break
    down the unfermentable carbohydrates to usable sugars for the yeast.
    This way you will obtain a lower FG that possible otherwise.

Enzymes must be added at temperatures below 149F (65C), and can be added
when pitching the yeast.

Enzymes may not be the cure-all for all stuck fermentations, but in two
of mine - it cured them!

*************************************************************************

While this information was available, it was very lmited, and not discussed
much at all.  I offer this for your benefit.  Some people might find this
to be the wrong approach, since the beta-amylase will convert much of the
body-enhancing dextrins to fermentable sugars - so be forewarned.  Myself,
I found the Mexican beer to be of superior quality to commercial beers,
and had much more body that the run-of-the-mill beer.

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin Hass WB0DPN       ! 
                        !  PGP public key by request via email
kevin at wheels.aar.com    !

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Date: 25 Apr 95 14:00:00 -0500
From: mlm01 at intgp1.att.com (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
Subject: Homebrew Competition

The Winfield Chamber of Commerce is sponsoring its First Annual
"Rites of Spring Homebrew Competition" on June 10, 1995. This
competition is AHA Sanctioned and is in need of judges and
stewards. If interested in judging or stewarding, please contact
Ron Meyer at "Beer in a Box" 1-708-690-8150 or 1-800-506-BREW.

Beer in a Box homebrew supply store is working out the details to 
get the judges free entry into the "Rites of Spring" beer and wine 
tasting scheduled for the evening of June 10 which will feature
several beers and wines from numerous distributors.

The entry fees and requirements are as follows:

	3 bottles/entry
	1-3 entries:	$4.00 each
	4-7 entries:	$3.50 each
	8 or more:	$3.00 each

Checks should be made payable to Winfield Chamber of Commerce

Send or drop off entries to arrive between June 1 to June 5 to:

		Rites of Spring Homebrew Competition
		c/o Winfield Liquors - Beer in a Box
		27W460 Beecher Ave.
		Winfield IL 60190

For entry forms or questions, call Josette Allen at 1-800-506-BREW or
1-708-690-8150

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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 11:24:56 PDT
From: "Troy Howard" <troy at oculus.jsei.ucla.edu>
Subject: Dinged enameled pot

While washing my 33 qt. enamel-on-steel boiling kettle after my last batch, it 
slipped from my hands and bounced off the tub.  Now there is a (~1/2 inch 
diameter) area where the enamel spallated from the steel.  

Does anyone know of an effective method for repairing this damage?

Any comments on what that small area of raw steel will do to my wort/beer the 
next time I brew?

And I know, I know. . . I should get a stainless kettle.

 -Troy

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Howard                       | Live fast, die young, and leave a good
troy at oculus.jsei.ucla.edu         | looking corpse.
Jules Stein Eye Institue,  UCLA   | 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 13:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: IBU measurement questions

I have two related questions about using the spectrophotometric method
(ASBC) of IBU measurement.  (All this talk got me to go ahead and buy
the isooctane and octanol and test out my own utilization curve that
I always tell people works for me.)

1) What is a good commercial beer to use as a control?  It should be
available, consistant in its IBU level (which of course must be known),
and I suppose a high IBU beer might be more useful than a low one.

2) At what points in the handling must you be concerned with exposure
to UV (or oxygen or anything else)?  For example if the beer is 
exposed to light in the sealed bottle are the IBU's changing?   Basically,
where am I likely to screw this up?

TIA
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu

P.S.  The AI cancelbot was a joke.

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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 09:53:36 -0600
From: k-jones at ee.utah.edu (Kelly Jones)
Subject: AI Robot

Someone said:

>I for one am totally opposed to the AI Robot deciding who can stay
>subscribed to the HBD.

>I may go the next quarter without a single post and according
>to your formula, I will be dropped.

The REAL bad news is, the humor impaired are dropped almost immediately.
The AI Robot has no tolerance for digest readers who can't recognize a
joke.

Kelly





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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:02:06 -0700
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject:    S/N ratio >> 65 dB


In the previous HBD:

>Date:          Mon, 24 Apr 1995 09:12:52 EDT
>From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu>
>Subject:       S/N ratio  at  65dB

>Dan writes in response to pH technique:

>> Proper practice for pH paper is to leave it in the solution until the
>> color stops changing.  For a weakly buffered solution (such as wort) 
>> this may take a few seconds.  However, you need to take into account
>> the color change caused by the color of your beer.  For darker beers 
>> this can be a problem.  That's the limitation of pH papers.

>FWIW, the instructions that come with the Whatman narrow range pH 
>papers say to dip the paper in the liquid and shake off the excess
>and wait 5 to 10 seconds. They also advise "reading" the wet paper in 
>bright light against a white background.

O.K.  I don't know Paul's qualifications but for the record I'm
a PhD student in Chemical Engineering at Caltech so I've seen and
used my fair share of pH papers.  As Paul's e-mail address places
him at the University of Maryland I have no doubt that his may be
similar.  Anyway, FWIW, I have two narrow range pH papers
(6.5 - 10.0 and 4.0 - 7.0) from E. Merck (not the drug company but
it's original parent company in Germany).  The instructions on both
read: 
   "Immerse in weakly-buffered solutions until there is no further
    color change (1 - 10 minutes)."

I also have a wide range paper (0-14) from Baxter Scientific Products
on which the instructions read:
   "If test solution is weakly buffered, leave test stick in solution
    until color no longer changes."

I have no experience with Whatman pH papers so I can't comment on them
but as far as I know most pH paper is essentially the same.  I don't
mean for this to sound like a flame, Paul, but I was somewhat irked by
your subject header which implies my S/N is low.

Also, Paul doesn't give the name of the poster of the comment about
supporting Jim Koch and the BBC and it may appear from Paul's post that
I made that statement.  Not so.  On the contrary, I very much agree with
Paul on this one.

Thanks for the bandwidth,
Dan Pack
Pasadena, CA

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 08:02:10 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: There will be no Who's Who.

Dear Friends, I am putting aside the idea of compiling a Who's Who list.  
Numerically, the votes are about evenly split, but the ideas raised by 
the no votes are simply too compelling to ignore.  These very thoughtful 
responses have convinced me that this idea belongs in the "Looks good on 
paper, but..." department.  Basically the potential value to newcomers of 
the proposed list does not outweigh the probable deterioration of the HBD 
that would result from the next steps in the list process.  Many 
newcomers will remain ignorant of how to retrieve archive files long 
enough to figure out who is who around here the same way we all have--by 
reading the digest.  There is a risk of bandwidth-devouring flamage that 
the rest of you didn't ask for and should not have to put up with just 
because someone else has an idea that, although reasonable, would be more 
trouble than it is worth.  And as mentioned in my second call for input, 
such a list would not be able to accurately reflect the contributions of 
private-email communications.  On the pro side, the argument can not be 
extended much beyond "sounds good, it would be handy"--which in all 
honesty was as far as my own support for it could be taken before asking 
for input from you all.  I'm very glad I did--my thanks to all who 
responded.  To paraphrase a couple of my most recent responses, the HBD 
and the net in general aren't perfect, but they work (more or less), so 
let's not try to fix what ain't broke.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"We [HBDers] are like the Borg" ---Chris Geden
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 21:33:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew archives


===> Gregg Willis asks about the Homebrew Arcives:

>Being recently unceramoniously dropped from the mailing list I called upon
>the archives to fill in my missing issues. Using ftp.stanford.edu in the
>/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer/digest directory I found my missing volumes but they
>are in a format I cannot read ("z files"). What do I need to read these
>files? Can anybody out there help me?

When you ftp to the archives and retrieve the file, leave the .Z off of
the file name and the server will automatically decompress the file before
sending it to you.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 23:03:39 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Yes, gelatin again. Last, time I promise.


In HBD #1714,

Andy Kligerman <homebre973 at aol.com> struggled with glass and gloop:

> Zymurgy (Spring 1994) quoting from the New Brewer 8(2) 1991 stated that
> brown glass blocked 96 % of the UV, green glass blocked 20% and clear
> glass blocked 10%.

But remember that, unless you are in the habit of storing your beer in
the sun, these are useless data because skunking is also caused by
*visible* light below about 550 nm (greenish).

> The beer was dry hopped with hop pellets, which is why I wanted to clear
> the beer and then have the stuff sit on the bottom, held by the gelatin.
>
> What I did was heat about a pint of bottled water to about 120 deg F,
> then dissovled a little over half of a packet of Knox gelatin to the
> water.  This mixture was then added it to my beer about 5 days before
> bottling.

Gelatin clears *yeast*, not hops debris. Also, it does not gel at the
concentration used to clear beer; do not expect it to form a layer of
Jello at the bottom of the carboy. The interaction is between individual
yeast cells that bind to free gelatin molecules, eventually forming larger
aggregates that can settle by gravity much faster than single cells. 

Anyway, don't try to dissolve gelatin directly into warm water. Always let
it swell in cold water, then when it is thoroughly swollen (it may take
10-30 min), dissolve it by heating. 

> While the beer seemed somewhat clear (although not as much as I had
> expected), but there were many large pieces of gloop (I don't know what
> to call it) floating in the beer.

That was undissolved gelatin. You did not boil it.   :-)

 ---

Chris Weirup <cerevis at panix.com> had problems with gelatin, and did an
experiment. With 8 tsp of gelatin in 500 ml (I calculate that as being 5.6
g/100 ml) he finds that the boiled solution does not set while the
unboiled one does. 

I found that flabbergasting, so I whipped up my own experiment: I made a
5% stock solution of gelatin, swollen in cold water then dissolved in a
65 C water bath. This stock was then placed into a duplicate set of test
tubes and diluted with warm water to 1, 2, 3, 4, and the original 5%.

One set of tubes was left at 65 C while the other was placed in a
boiling water bath for 15 minutes. Both sets were then taken out and
left to cool to room temperature. Both 5% samples gelled, while the more
dilute ones thickened but did not gel. They were then placed at 4 C, and
the 4, 3, and 2% samples gelled completely, while the 1% samples gelled
to a quivery blob.

After a couple of hours at room temperature, both 1% tubes had remelted,
both 2% ones were quiveringly blobby, and the others stayed put. 

There was no observable difference between the boiled and non-boiled
sets.

I conclude that boiling gelatin in water has no detrimental effect on its
gelling ability as logic predicted. Chris's experience may be related to
his use of wort (presumably, since he was trying to prepare culture
tubes). Wort is mildly acidic and that might be enough to cause cleavage
of the peptide backbone, although my gut feeling is that it is much too 
weakly acidic for that. 

In any case, to prepare culture tubes it should be easy to sterilize
separately 2x gelatin in water and 2x wort, and to mix them after they
have cooled somewhat. 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 20:17:04 -0800
From: mtruhe at ucdavis.edu (Mark Ruhe)
Subject: fruit in beer

this weekend(hopefully) i will be brewing a rasberry wheat beer.  the wheat
part i got pretty much figured out; it's the fruit part that i'm not sure
about.  so, if anybody or everybody has any wisdom, experience, or just
feels like sharing their two cents on how to get just a hint of flavor,
aroma, and color of rasberry in to a pretty standard(~60% wheat, ~40%
2-row,hallertauer, wyeast 3068) wheat beer i would be more than happy to
heft one in your honor approx. ten days after bottling. you can e-mail me
at mtruhe at ucdavis.edu.                      cheers, mark



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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:09:33 -0500
From: nr706 at mcs.com (Tom Keith)
Subject: artificial sweteners in beer

glenn_wikle at Warren.MENTORG.COM writes:

>Do commercial breweries really use artificial sweeteners?  If beer
>were required to adhere to US FDA laws for food labeling, we might
>know what nasty food additives they are using.

I know that aspartame (the sweetener in Equal and other "blue stuff") was
approved for use in beer and related beverages about two years ago by the
FDA - that came basically at the request of Stroh's. I don't know if
they're actually using it in anything, though ...

- ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
Tom Keith                  |  Advertising, Promotion and New Product |
Thomas Keith & Associates  |  Development for smaller companies and  |
1016 Mulford Street        |  smaller divisions of large companies.  |
Evanston, IL 60202-3317    |   Now! Multimedia and WWW development!  |
voice:  708-328-1282       +-----------------------------------------+
Fax:    708-328-2242       |         check out our Web page          |
e-mail  nr706 at mcs.com      |  http://www.mcs.com/~nr706/home.html    |
- ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+




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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 01:02:39 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Brewery Web Sites

     My sister is designing a Web site for Upper Canada Brewery in 
Toronto and would like to see some Brewery Web sites for some general
ideas.
     Does anyone know of any breweries that have Web sites? If so,
could you please send me (private E-mail) their web address.
     Any information will be greatly appreciated. 
     Sorry for the lack of homebrew content in this post.


- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 21:23:12 EDT
From: awalsh at pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: gelatin, agar and enough of Wheeler

Well, there certainly seems to be a bit of divided
opinion about what to do with gelatin!
I, for one, am more confused than ever. Fredrik
Stahl says it works fine for him below 25C (yes
my room temperature was below this level. I used
16 teaspoons/ litre.I left it alone for 3 hours and it
would not set. The unboiled samples set in about
20 minutes in the same room). Pierre Jelenc says
boiling gelatin in acid (eg. wort?) will degrade it,
and Irwin Gelman says any boiling will make it
useless. #8>| (confused and need a haircut)
Anyway, I went to the local Asian grocery and
bought some agar powder (7 grams for A$1).
Unfortunately, it was laced with vanilla extract,
but I hope this won't worry the yeast! It was a
sufficient quantity to make 1litre of nutrient,
which should be ample for about the next year.
It was quite messy to use, but despite boiling
the heck out of it, the solution set very quickly,
at quite a high temperature, and very firm. So,
provided my yeasties seem to like their new
home (I'll know in a few days), it would appear
to be a better solution ;-)
Does anyone know how good agar is either as
a yeast-settling agent (for the secondary) or in
the boil (a la Irish moss?). My packet says it is
seeweed based. I guess since I haven't heard of
it being used in these roles it isn't suitable.
******************
For those affronted by my Wheeler criticism:
if you like the recipes, go ahead and make them.

They appear to be fine for English-style ales,
I just have huge reservations about the hopping levels -

eg. Exmoor Gold 32IBU p104
listed hop schedule:
34g fuggles at 4.5% for 90 mins
28g challenger at 7.7% for 90 mins
20g goldings at 5.3% for 90 mins
20g goldings at 5.3% for 15 mins.
volume = 23 l

This recipe was selected *at random*. % alpha
acids are the average content provided by Wheeler
in the same book.

I plugged these numbers into SUDS 3.0c
This is the analysed (unmodified) result:

*****************************************
                                  Exmoor Gold

Style      : English E.S.B.           
Method     : Full Mash
Recipe makes 23.0 liters
Total Grain:  5.00 kgs.
Color (srm):  5.4
Orig Grav  :  1.046
Efficiency : 70%
Hop IBUs   : 69.5

Malts/Sugars:
  5.00	kg.	Pale Ale                 

Hops:
34.00	g.	Fuggles        	 4.5%	90 min
28.00	g.	challenger     	 7.7%	90 min
20.00	g.	Kent-Goldings  	 5.3%	90 min
20.00	g.	Kent-Goldings  	 5.3%	15 min
*************************************

Note the hop IBUs at 69.5 are more than double those
suggested by Wheeler at 32. 
Have I made my point clear yet?

My main criticisms concerned his claims that his book 
was just the "reference work on the subject", when clearly
it is not the best available. It is full of errors (as I wrote before)
and many omissions. He doesn't even tell you how
to make a beer kit for goodness sake! Other books would at 
least discuss how to improve them by not following those
awful instructions that they all come with.

What it does do is discuss how to make (hoppy) full-mash
English beers. It describes  English brewing practice. Now
that's OK, and I'm not about to throw my copies away, but
surely other books offer more than this?

*****************************
////     Andy Walsh from Sydney
////     awalsh at ibm.net
////     phone 61 2 369 5711
*****************************

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 07:55:52 -0400
From: Anatum at aol.com
Subject: Stainless vs. brass

Hello again,
I am posting a summary of the responses received to my question: Are brass
nipples OK to use in a brewing system?
One person said not to worry.
Another said it would be a bad idea.
A few people asked for a summary.
In response to my comment that brazing had been described to me as unsafe for
food contact, one person noted that because brazing rod consists of copper,
tin and zin, none of which are harmful in food, that brazing should be OK.
The jury is still out for me - can John Palmer or any other metallurgist
respond to this question? There seems to be interest in this, considering the
feedback I'm getting.
Also - I would like to make an excellent ale recipe available. Is this the
appropriate forum, or is there a preferred site?
Thanks again for your input,
Greg Tatarian
Petaluma, CA

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 07:14:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556" <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: Burner/Aluminum/Mosher Book/pH paper/.Z

Greetings from a first-timer.  Thanks go out to all for helping
me learn the craft of brewing!  Pointless discussions aside,
the HBD is a great resource for new brewers, those who may
absorb info without contributing for months while building a
good knowledge base.

My questions to The Collective:
	Having never seen a Superb propane burner, does it
	resemble the fryer/smoker units available in hardware
	stores?  These are handily available to me at decent
	prices and are NOT jet-style (Cajun Cooker) units.
	Morroni (?) makes a stable unit (170k BTU) available 
	locally for under $60, and full boils are ahead!

	Why not use aluminum kettles?  The weak correlation
	of aluminum ingestion with Alzheimer's Disease left
	me asking this question, then I read the Brewing
	Techniques (Jan/Feb '95) article comparing Al levels in 
	beer brewed half in Al and half in SS pots.  Good article.
	The next day I bought a 10 gallon Al pot for $60 at
	a local restaurant supply warehouse.  Especially
	convincing were the Al levels in ordinary foods, our
	water supplies, etc.  That from beer ain't gonna add much!
	Another important note in the article mentions the
	relatively more significant hazards of copper FWIW.

	Does anyone use the Mosher "Brewer's Companion" book?
	Seems a useful tool for me, though some knowledge helps
	in interpretation of the graphs/figures.

My contributions for The Collective:
	As a practicing chemist using pH test strips routinely,
	the standard practice is to immerse the strips for
	3-4 seconds, then watch them for 5-10 seconds until
	the color change reaches an end point.

	For Mac users accessing info from the Stanford archives,
	Stuffit Expander *WITH Expander Enhancer* decompresses
	.Z and just about anything else.  Its available many
	places via anon. FTP for demo, but register...its worth the $$.

Thanks for the BW!

Dave

From: BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")
cc:   BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 06:18:00 PDT
From: Leo Christoffer <LEO at WV.BE.WEDNET.EDU>
Subject: subcription information


I would like information on your service and subscription as well.

Thanks

Leo Christoffer

leo at wv.be.wednet.edu

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Date: 26 Apr 1995 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Lance Stronk <S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com>
Subject: CO2

CO2 is not heavier than air?  Really? 
Well, I haven't done the experiment in a long time but maybe some people out
there would like to prove it to themselves rather than listen to the endless
banter and bullshit on this subject (I confess that I am a contributor).

Take a firestone keg (with air from normal atmosphere) and a lit match and hold
the match down inside the keg.  The match will consume the oxygen in the keg to
stay lit.
Next, seal the keg and fill with CO2.  Now, the amount of CO2 you put in is
dependant on how much you want to waste.  I would say put a few psi of CO2 in
the keg.  Let the keg stand for a few moments.  Remove the gas line on the keg
and relieve the pressure.  Take a lit match and place it down inside the keg. 
I would be very surprised if it stays lit.  I wonder why this happens?

I think the original argument was that the CO2 mixes with the air already in
the keg.  I agree with this.  The real question is, how much CO2 is required to
provide the barrier needed to prevent degradation of the beer by oxygen.  In my
kegging experience it does not seem to be that much. I also agree that when
filling the keg from another keg under pressure, that the empty keg should be
filled through the 'out' port or liquid tube such that it will fill from the
bottom up taking advantage of the so-called  "fictitious" blanket of CO2.

As to why CO2 does not accumulate on the earth and kill all the O2 breathing
life on the planet I am not sure.  Perhaps an off-HBD discussion would be
better to analyze this phenomenon.  I would be interested in the answer.

Lance Stronk


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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 08:43:06 EST
From: blrett at most.magec.com (Ben Rettig)
Subject: Mini Keg Bombs (Overcarbonation)

>psg at ix.netcom.com (Paul Gibson) writes

>systems are potentially deadly! (5 Liter Mini Kegs)

This is no understatement!! I had a dangerous situation with my 5 Liter
mini keg also. My problem was with the Keg itself.

I corn sugar primed a normal 5 Gal. batch of homebrew. I siphoned the first
5 Liters off into a mini keg and bunged. The keg was stored at garage
temperature (72 deg F). Two weeks passed, no problem. Four weeks, no
problem. Six weeks, I checked the keg and it had swelled up. Both the
bottom and the top had swelled outward. The bottom had swelled about 1.5
inches from normal. The top had swelled about 2 inches and the crimp that
hold the top on and forms the rim had opened up, but the keg was still
pressurized. I could not imagine how much pressure was in this keg. What to
do? I had the family go to the farthest room from the garage. Put on heavy
gloves and gently put the keg into the garage refrigerator, allowing the
co2 to dissolve into solution. I taped the refrigerator shut incase the
motion of moving liberated any new co2. After a week I tapped the keg, of
course the tap wouldn't fit the top. Total foam and in a few minutes all
the co2 had leaked out of the bung seal because it wasn't seated on the
top. Bad experience! The rest of the batch that was bottled was
overcarbonted but none of the bottles exploded.

I know this is unrealated to the problem Paul wrote about but it scared me.
I have since backed off the carbonation sugar for any mini kegged brew.

Ben Rettig



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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 09:51:54 -0400
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Conditioning Casks 


In #1715, Troy Downing asks about conditioning casks.  Last time I
checked, "Progressive Winemaking" by Bryan Acton & Peter Duncan had a
good section on getting a cask ready to hold wine.  From what I recall
it should be applicable to beer.  Last time I checked was a long time
ago and I cannot find my copy;  I have, however, seen it for sale
recently at Beer & Wine Hobby in Woburn, MA.  If your local supplier
does not carry it, e-mail me for the address & phone number of Beer &
Wine Hobby.

One thing I remember from my wine making days is that the cask size is
important.  One of the reasons that wines are aged in casks is because
the casks breathe so the wines oxidize slightly & slowly.  Now oxidation
generally is bad in wine as well and part of the problem with a small
cask is that the surface area to volume ratio is very high so whatever
is in it oxidizes more rapidly.

Now I really don't know how or if this applies to a beer that will not
be in the cask nearly as long as a wine will.  Does anyone out there
have experience with this?  BTW, paraffin lined casks don't count in
this regard.  They are lined to prevent this sort of thing; appearance
aside, they are no better for aging a beer or wine than a big bottle.

- -- 

Jim Grady
grady at an.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group
Andover, MA

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 08:36:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
Subject: Coyote???

Anybody hear from the Coyote lately?  What happend to him?  His neighbours
didn't get to him did they?

Rob.

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 10:52:13 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: CO2 purging of kegs, was co2/air mixtures

In HBD 1715, "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com> said
<snip>

> gas mixtures remain fairly well mixed, regardless of the molecular
> weights of the components in the mixture. so, the best solution is to
> purge air from a keg by pressuring and depressuring a few times with
> co2 rather than by relying on a 'blanket' of co2.

Better solution, but I propose this as "best."  When I'm really worried
about having nothing but CO2 in a keg, I fill it with water after
sanitizing it (the keg, I presume my water is sufficiently clean, but
you could use boiling water), the seal it up and push out the water with
low pressure CO2.  I figure this *really* purges it and probably uses
less CO2 than your pressuring and depressuring.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 10:52:27 -0400
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: mash brewing time

I'm wondering how long it takes most folks to do a full mash brew.
I've done enough all grain batches to know what I'm doing without having to
stop and think about it or have to look something up.
My last batch took 7 hours end to end. This is from rounding up 
equipment to pitching yeast/cleanup. Working with 10 lbs of grain and a
motorized grain mill. I use a King Kooker w/ a converted 1/4 keg and also use
an immersion chiller.
Figure mash 1.25 hours, sparge 1 hour, boil 1.25 hours, chilling time 30-40
minutes (I whirlpool and wait a little before siphoning). All that accounts
for about 4 hours.
I've heard folks say they can do it in 5 hours or less. My question is
 ...how?
I must putz around too much along the way.

Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com>

Note: the previous was posted by Bob's Unmanned Robotic Posting Program
(BURPP) which is designed to ensure earning maximum HBD anti boot-off points
by incorporating the crypitc word forms known only by those who have achieved
the highest levels of beer geekism.

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 07:36:17 -0700
From: Scott Howe <howe at appmag.com>
Subject: HopBack onto the HBD


Greetings,
  I'm Back from the cyber-death that happened. I thought the HBD had only taken
a spring break, but when I had no HBD this Monday either, I decided to re-
subscribe.  I work in the Drive-head business, and I hope it was not one of OUR 
heads that died! ;)   Now I gotta figure out this archive thingy...How's it go?
No ".z" on file names??? 

 Tuesday, Jim Fitzgerald" <jimfitz at netcom.com> wrote a summary of his SNPA 
replies, and included the following: 

>Hops: They no longer use a hop-back in the brewery for SNPA. There seems to be
>a time when they did, which may explain why a lot of people have written
>articles about hop-backs for SNPA in the past, but they no longer do. They
>finish the boil with cascade and then use a hop extractor of some sort which
>may be similar to the use of a hop-back.

  I hate to start a bad thread, but isn't "Hopping Back" another name for 
"Separating the Hops from the hot wort?"  And isn't this what a "Hop Extractor"
does?   When I brew, I think I am hopping back when I use my lauter tun to 
separate out my hops, but I could be wrong.  

  Please flame me here if I'm wrong, since I think the collective HBDers would 
benefit from the wisdom at hand here.

   GO BOSTON BRUINS!
   GO FREMANTLE DOCKERS!
   GO HAVE A BEER!
   
    --Aubrey


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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 11:49:56 EDT
From: I stepped inside and didn't see too many faces 26-Apr-1995 1147 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: 10 gal Gott does work excellent!

>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 11:50:03 EDT
>From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
>Subject: RE: Mash-Lauter Tun Question
>
>In HBD#1710, Chip Shabazian asks: 
>
>>I am building an all grain system using Sankey kegs.  I was thinking of
>>using a cooler for the Mash/Lauter Tun and had some questions.  I believe
>>the 10 Gallon Gott coolers would give me a better grain bed for filtration
>>than the standard rectangular coolers, but heard from my local store that
>>some people have problems sparging 10 gallon batches in them because the
>>grain bed is _too_ thick.  What is the consensus from those of you out there
>>using Gott coolers for 10 gallon batches.

I second Jim's report.  I have a 10-gal gott and i regulary do 10-12 gal
batches with 15-22# of grain and i have had no probs.  works like a charm.

jc

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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Parker <parker at mote.ME.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Microwave sterilization/Yeasty beer

Irwin Gelman talks about microwaving his gelatin growth medium and 
mentions that

'Microwaving is ideal for sterilization as it kills microorganisms and
even spores rapidly, without the side-effect of long-term heating'

I'd love to hear some discussion of this idea.  Last batch I found myself
in immediate need of a funnel, but my plastic one hadn't been sterilized
and even had discolorations from previous use on it.  I threw it in the
microwave for a few minutes and then used it.  Was I doing any good by
microwaving?  If so, why not use this method to sterilize siphon tubing,
yeast culture tubes, airlocks, ....?  How long of a microwave is
necessary?  Any concern about running the microwave without any liquid in
the oven?  This strikes me as an extremely convenient procedure if it
works. 

++++++++++++

A recent lager has a very yeasty smell and taste as evidently the yeast
did not settle well.  I used Wyeast Czech Pils yeast from the secondary of
a previous batch (which did not have this problem).  I did a decoction
mash and must admit lost temperature control a few times along the way. 
I'll also admit to poor aeration of this batch. I want to spare you the
details of my process, but can anyone explain the main, generic causes of
poor yeast settling? 

Rob

________________________________________________________________
Robert G. Parker                        parker at mote.me.berkeley.edu

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Date: 26 Apr 1995 09:57:09 PDT
From: "Dutcher, Pier" <PEDU at chevron.com>
Subject: CO2 Rises(?)


From: Dutcher, Pier     -PEDU
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  CO2 Rises(?)
Date: 1995-04-26 09:33
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wade  Wallinger writes: < by that logic we would all be dead since co2 in
the
atmosphere would surround us on the surface and o2 would rise above us.>
<snip>
Wade, there's probably a bit more activity in the atmosphere than there is
in your fermenters.  We had a thread going around for a while regarding
using propane cookers in enclosed spaces, and the point was often brought up
that heavier gases (like propane and CO2) settle in the lower spots unless
there's good air circulation, thus the danger of gas concentration and
explosions.  FWIW, I drop a couple of chunks of dry ice in my secondary
shortly before transferring.  Once sublimation is complete, a burning match
lowered ~1" into the secondary's neck is extinguished immediately, so I'm
fairly sure the diffusion that you mention is a SLOW process.  --  Pier
 (pedu at chevron.com)



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Date: 26 Apr 1995 11:16:11 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: NA revisited


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  NA revisited
Date: 1995-04-26 13:02
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bob Paolino asks a few questions about my NA beer.

Q1. I, too, was concerned about the bitterness of a 1 gallon batch. I chose
a short boil, low alpha hops, and the lowest weight of hops that I could
reasonably measure (1/2 oz). The result was a moderately, not overly, hopped
beer. In fact, it was about what I was looking for, to match the commercial
imported versions. IMHO, the imported versions are considerably better than
their American counterparts precisely because of the added hoppiness.
(Hophead alert!)

Q2. You are precisely correct that the yeast only helped carbonate the beer,
since no fermentation took place. The beer was very cloudy, even before
adding the yeast. I agree that this version would do better with forced
carbonation, which I was not equipped to do for such a small batch. The beer
remained rather cloudy, which settled slowly. I received two suggestions to
improve this: a) use liquid yeast, which settles better, b) use gelatin to
clarify (unheated, heated, boiled, microwaved, dishwashed?). The beer did
mostly nothing while it sat awaiting bottling: no krausen, nothing. The
taste was not sweet, either. I think any sweetness was diminished by the low
gravity (low concentration of dextrine). indeed, the dextrine didn't ferment
at all. The yeast remained viable during the 'fermentation' (settling) phase
in order to provide carbonation at bottling.

FWIW, I was suprised by Mark's news of Coors' claim for their NA beer,
Cutter. Cutter is just as watery as the rest of the American-style NA beers,
none of which compare to their imported counterparts, let alone non-NA
microbrewed beer. The specimens that I bought for my Dad, which he refused
to drink, are now pressed into service for boiling bratwurst (why waste one
of my good homebrews for that).

Wade Wallinger (brewing contraband in Pascagoula, Mississippi)


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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:55:35 -0600 (CST)
From: jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Subject: fermentap ?

has anybody purchased a fermentap?  if so could you email me with any
information you would think would be valuable for someone who may purchase
one i.e. cost, effectiveness, is it worthwhile, etc...
private email is fine. thanks in advance.
jeh
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hartzler                           Office of Student Insurance
jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                        Campus Box 2541
Benefits Counselor                             Normal IL  61790-2541
=====================================================================

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1716, 04/27/95