FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Comments on Open Fermentation ("RUCKER, WILLIAM G.")
  BEERMUDA TRIANGLES ("mike spinelli")
  Decoction mashing ("RUCKER, WILLIAM G.")
  Check, Spoil, Dry (Russell Mast)
  Munich Malt and Astringency (Alan Folsom)
  Re: Primary -> Secondary ("David Wright")
  RE:Looking for a few good dry yeasts (harry)
  Roberson's answers. (Russell Mast)
  Alien fermenter messages?? ("MOTHER::S29033")
  Re: Liquid Yeast Experience (harry)
  Hop Vines Taking Over, Help (insert choking sounds) ("Glyn Crossno")
  Brewpubs in Naples, Fla ("Douglas Rasor")
  Recipe Needed ("Biggins, Steve")
  Guiness (troussos)
  exploding growler ("mike spinelli")
  all-grain time... (Joe Pearl)
  Re: Primary -> Secondary (Joe Pearl)
  efficiency/storage (John Shearer)
  All-Grain Time (John DeCarlo              )
  new recipes (Brian Mulroney)
  Homebrew Kits (Regina Roman)
  cf chillers, hops, propane cookers (Rob Emenecker)
  Primary --> Secondary (Willits)
  Hose for Steam, Steam Generator Usage (Art Steinmetz)
  Yeast Farming and Marmite (Domenick Venezia)
  Re: Chocolate brew (FLATTER)
  Verb - Collapsing Foam ("Dan Listermann, Cinci OH")
  Fermenter Question/Answer (DCB2)
  1995 National Homebrew Competition Results (Shawn Steele)
  Food vs. Beer Grade Extracts (Ray Daniels)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 07:48:06 EST
From: "RUCKER, WILLIAM G." <ruckewg at naesco.com>
Subject: Comments on Open Fermentation

     Hello to all surviving digest subscribers,
     
     A little while back I asked for some personal experiences from those 
     who had tried open fermentation. I received several responses from 
     some passionate believers in the concept. Well, to say I was swayed to 
     try it would be an understatement. I tried it yesterday using a good 
     hearty starter and a pale ale recipe and checked on it this morning 
     and it was at high kraeusen and going like crazy. I hope the end 
     product comes out as good as those who wrote and gave me the 
     information. 
     
     I wanted to thank heartily those that responded to that post. Your 
     information has been used and is now being tested. 
     
     Have a good day and enjoy a homebrew.
     
     Bill Rucker
     brewzer at peanut.mv.com
     ruckewg at naesco.com


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:25:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: BEERMUDA TRIANGLES

I remember watching an old 70s movie called Chariots of the Gods which tryed
to explain the disappearance of 5 WWII vintage aircraft off the coast of
Florida.  I think they attributed the disappearance to the BEERMUDA
TRIANGLE.  If you see these triangles in your fermentors DON"T stand near
them!  I read in the Nat. Enquirer that 2 homebrewers in Buffalo vanished
after these triangles appeared in their violently fermenting wheat beer!

            Mike

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:02:45 EST
From: "RUCKER, WILLIAM G." <ruckewg at naesco.com>
Subject: Decoction mashing

     A question for those who have tried this exercise in self abuse.
     
     I tried doing a partial mash recently using a single decoction mash 
     schedule. I took the thickest part of the grist like I have read and 
     raised the temp to 158 deg for 20 minutes and then brought to a boil 
     for 30 minutes. When I added it back to the other part of the 
     mash(don't know the technical name) the temperature increase was not 
     what I expected. I think that I may not have taken enough of the mash 
     to start with but could it also have something to do with how much 
     liquid is taken off as well? I had very little residual liquid when I 
     put the decoction back in. What is the correct quantities/consistency 
     to pull off in the decoction? I eventually got the temp up to 158 deg 
     but I wanted to get it there a little more accurately. Is this one of 
     the big questions or problems with decoction mashing that trial and 
     error is the only answer to?
     
     I am preparing to move into all grain with some process tweaks doing 
     partials so this weighs in as a big question for me. I plan on making 
     mostly German style lagers and weizens and I understand this to be the 
     best method. Any info will be appreciated.
     
     Private Eamil is fine. If there is enough interest I will post any 
     findings to the digest. 
     
     Bill Rucker
     brewzer at peanut.mv.com
     ruckewg at naesco.com


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:26:17 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Check, Spoil, Dry


> From: kevinm at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu (Kevin McEnhill)
> Subject: Checks (again)

> I think there should be some checks with brewing stuff on
> them. Do these exist some place?

If not, I've seen ads for places that allow you to design your own checks.  
I'd imagine you get quite a discount if lots of people were interested.  
I certainly am.  

> From: lavist at cc.tacom.army.mil
> Subject: Spoiled Batch?

Taste it.  If it is totally unpalatable, I'd dump it.  Otherwise, keg it
and let us know in a couple weeks.

> From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
> Subject: Capt Kirk's Krausen Corners

> Gentlebrewers, I think we are seeing the signs of alien intelligence at work.
> ... Please preserve that yeast, it
> is undoubtably a special yeast that they, whomever they are (Vegans?) have
> given to you. I suggest we codename it Stardust in future discussions.

Aren't those those hardcore vegitarians who don't eat eggs, milk, or any other
animal products?  (By the way, homebrew that hasn't been treated with gelatin
or live chikcens doesn't violate their food codes, in case y'all have any Vegan 
pals.)

> From: troussos at fefjdcc.attmail.com (troussos)
> Subject: liquid vs dry yeast
> 
> Will somebody please clearly explain the benefits of liquid vs. dry yeast?
> I've been hearing for sometime how great liquid is.  However, I haven't heard 
> what it does that is different than dry.  

Mostly, it's what it _doesn't_ do.  It's far less likely to be contaminated.
You can also get a wider variety of strains.

 -R

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 06:41:02 -0700
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: Munich Malt and Astringency

Awhile back I made a Bock, and used a very large percentage of Munich
Malt as per Richman's book on Bock.  The beer was good, with some
astringency problems.

While at Planet Beer I was talking with someone who mentioned an
article, by Fix, I believe, which discussed astringency problems using
domestic Munich, which probably wouldn't occur with imported Munich.

All of this is of course, second hand, and I may be completely off on 
what was really meant.  Does anyone have a reference to that article, 
or can summarize it for me?

Planet Beer was great, by the  way, although I was very disappointed in
the technical sessions, with little really solid information.  I also 
came away with somewhat more of an uneasy gut feeling about the AHA's 
ability to represent homebrewing and homebrewers.   Good beers, good 
food, and good people, though, and the offline discussions were quite 
helpful.

Al F.



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Date:          Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:46:55 EST5EDT
From: "David Wright" <LSMAIL at osp.emory.edu>
Subject:       Re: Primary -> Secondary


> I'm brewing my third batch of beer. The first two were single-stage
> ferments, but I'm going with a two-stage this time, as it's a fruit beer.
> What I'd like to do is this: siphon the wort from the primary into a
> sanitized bucket, clean the primary (a 6 1/2 g carboy), and pour the wort
> back into the sanitized carboy, using it as my secondary. So, 3 questions:
> 
> 1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
> have to siphon it?
> 
> 2) Can I leave the wort in the bucket and use that as my secondary?
> 
> 3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?
> 
Yes, Yes and Yes.
1) You can do either funnel or siphon. Although Using the funnel will 
aerate(sp?) your wort. This was a topic of discussion in the HBD 
awhile back. The pros of aerating a second time is that you will give 
the yeast a kick and your wort will ferment a bit faster and more 
complete. The cons being that you have a greater chance of infection.

2)There is no problem with leaving the beer in the bucket for the 
secondary fermentation. If you have a bucket that was designed to be 
a fermentor (Has lid with a hole for the airlock), this is 
preferable or you could give "open fermentation a try" although this 
is not recommended because of the "greatly" increased risk of 
infection.

3)One can never have too many carbouys. I have 2 carbouys and 1 
fermentation bucket. I haven't use the bucket in quit a while though. 
With the second carbouy, not only will you have a good secondary 
fermentor, you can do 2 batches at the same time. This comes in handy 
during the holidays (or other times) when you want to do a stout and 
a cider for the winter months for example.

I hope this helps. 
David Wright

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:47:52 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: RE:Looking for a few good dry yeasts

Chip Shabazian recommends Nottingham dry yeast. I've had good luck with it
, and even better luck with Windsor dry yeast. It ferments fast, doesn't
even require a starter to kick off fairly quickly (though I make a starter
anyway, I've just trained myself to always make a starter!), and gives a
tasty beer. My favorite extract brew thus far has been a English bitter in
which I used Windsor Ale yeast.


Harry

 .................................................................

 ..................................................................



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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:52:37 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Roberson's answers.


> :I am just anal about sanitation and cleanliness. ;)  When you consider yeast 
> 
>     The secret ingredient is two quarts of sour mash, a la Guiness.
> ... as a lesson on just how hard you have to work to get a
> bacterial culture established

Well, I had an accidental infection in a stout which was more or less the 
same thing.  Declared "undrinkable" at a recent homebrew competetion.  I 
think it tastes like Jack Daniel's, myself.  I made it in Tennessee, too, 
so you can guess what I call it.

>     Now for my question:  How does fermentation temp affect the flavor profile
> in weizens?  I have it in my mind that above 55F the delbruckii don't produce
> much in the way of clove phenolics, so that I have sacrificed my fridge on the
> altar of low-banana-esters, but I have noticed several posts lately about
> hyperactivity at 65-70F.  Anybody have the full story?

Not a full story, but I had a batch of this stuff ferment like a raging cyclone
at about 45F.  I would definately say keep the temps low.  (Just had a bottle
of my latest wheat last night, temps got too high.  "Daylight come and me 
wan' go home")

> From: chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Christopher Pickslay)
> Subject: Primary -> Secondary

> 3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?

Of course.  You'll be buying one real soon anyway, might as well get it now.

 -R

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Date: 19 Jun 95 09:57:00 EST
From: "MOTHER::S29033" <lstronk at sikorsky.com>
Subject: Alien fermenter messages??

Kirk writes:
>Now, although I think John P was a bit out-of-line with his cut about
>naming the yeast Stardust, I agreed with his suggestion that there may
>be an attempt being made to communicate.  Therefore, I wired the
>fermenter to my satellite dish and it trained on NGC 5139.  Now, gummygoo
>coalescing on the surface of the current batch is clearly forming the
>pattern of a star group which I simply have not yet identified.  This
>is scaring the hell out of me.

After laughing out loud and having my colleagues look at me strangely, a moment
of seriousness hit me.  What if the "gummygoo" pattern is not a star pattern
but the molecular form of the 'Ultimate' beer, a beer that would appeal to
everyone?  A beer that EVERYONE would HAVE to drink.  Should someone warn
Budmilloors?  This is the first time I have heard of a fermenter, full of wort,
being abducted by aliens (other than the episode of the X-files where strange
bright lights were seen over the New Haven Brewery and a 60 barrel fermenter
was ascending into a UFO).  The government is obviously trying to cover it up. 
As a matter of fact, I think they are onto this post and...$%#%*(&&&&

NO CARRIER


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:03:22 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Re: Liquid Yeast Experience

        James Drago would like some advice on using a smack-pack of yeast
that took 6 weeks to swell. From my limited experience, I would say;
1) Sounds like a strange yeast packet
2) If it's a strange yeast packet, don't use it! Why gamble your time and
the expense of a batch of beer on a dubious yeast?

        HOWEVER, it sounds like a great oppurtunity for a little
experiment. Pitch the package into a pint starter. After the starter
ferments out, taste it. Taste should tell you whether or not the yeast is
OK. If its good, pitch the sediment into your next batch, or better yet,
make a quart starter and pitch the sediment from that into your next batch.
If it tastes bad, congratulate yourself on not using it in your beer!


Harry

 .................................................................

 ..................................................................



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Date:          Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:13:51 CST
From: "Glyn Crossno" <CROSSNO at novell2.tn.cubic.com>
Subject:       Hop Vines Taking Over, Help (insert choking sounds)

My hop vines are doing great, thanks to the little four legged grass 
processor and lots of water.  Shortest one is 12 feet long about 18.  
Flowers are every where!  

Each of the main vines is sprouting lots of minor vines.  Should 
these minor vines be trimed?  Or are my hops ruined?  When should the 
first flowers be picked?

Thanks,
Glyn Crossno
Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com
"To make the Fates laugh, tell them you have a plan."

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:32:09 EST
From: "Douglas Rasor" <drasor at HOFFMAN-ISSAA2.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Brewpubs in Naples, Fla


     I am going on vacation very soon.  I will be going to Marco, Florida.  
     The closest large town is Naples.  Does anyone know of any Brewpubs I 
     might enjoy while I am there.  Also, is it legal to transport your 
     homebrew across state lines.  My wife is concerned that if I bring any 
     with me I will be committing a felonious act.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:19:00 PDT
From: "Biggins, Steve" <steveb at fpg.logica.com>
Subject: Recipe Needed


     

  Could anyone out there tell me the recipe for:

      "Pike's Place Pale Ale"

  Private e-mail is fine: steveb at fpg.logica.com


  TIA,


  Steve B.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:25:26 -0500
From: troussos at fefjdcc.attmail.com (troussos)
Subject: Guiness

I want to Brew a Guiness-clone and am looking for a recipe.The only ones I've 
been able to find  are all-grain.  

Any recipies for a Guiness-type using LME or DME (or Both) with some 
steeping grains would be great !!

Also any sugestions on how to emulate the creamy head without nitrogen ??

Thanks !

troussos at attmail.com

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:03:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: exploding growler

My wife's mom brought me a real nice ceramic growler from her hometown in
Germany.  Smaller than 2 litres, with a nice cathedral motif on it.
Most have a metal handle with 2 holding straps, but this growler had a
ceramic handle molded to the vessel.
I filled the bad boy with a weizen and on the 7th day it EXPLODED atop of my
entertainment center.  I got paranoid so I took all 75 bottles of the nitro
and put in the crawlspace.  So far, none have gone off.
2nd part of this disaster is that her mom packed 2 of the bottles in her
luggage to take back to Germany.  One broke en route (She still loves me
though).
Question: Are these growlers filles just like my 16 oz. bottles, or is there
some special procedure I don't know about.  BTW, I primed w/ 1 cup sugar in
about 4.5 gals. and left 2" of headspace in growler.

Mike

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:10:13 -0400
From: Joe Pearl <joep at informix.com>
Subject: all-grain time...

 Bones> From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>"
 Bones> <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu> Subject: high gravity all-grain

 Bones> <snip>

 Bones> FWIW, I believe the time commitment associated with all-grain
 Bones> brewing has been severely underestimated in the late thread on
 Bones> that subject----either that or I am just anal about sanitation
 Bones> and cleanliness. ;) When you consider yeast starter prep and
 Bones> maintenance, water pre-treatment (boiling in my case), grain
 Bones> crushing, recipe preparation and research, pre-brewing cleaning
 Bones> and sanitation of the kitchen/brewhouse, step mashes,
 Bones> decoctions, sparging, boiling, chilling, aeration, pitching,
 Bones> CLEANUP, note-taking, computer logging of notes, racking,
 Bones> bottling/kegging, etc. the time investment is frickin' HUGE.  I
 Bones> have never had an all-grain brew-day less than 7 hours total
 Bones> even with a single infusion mash----although, I boil on the
 Bones> stovetop and have an immersion chiller.  This, of course,
 Bones> doesn't include any of the other stuff mentioned above.
 Bones> Homebrewing is not that cheap when you consider your labor cost
 Bones> alternative---even at minimum wage!  You simply have to have a
 Bones> consuming passion to be crazy enough to brew your own.  Just my
 Bones> perspective, YMMV.

Uh-oh.  I just received a sparging set-up for Dad's day.  After reading
everything I've got at home on the subject of all-grain, I read the
above.  I'm thinking "How am I going to brew with a toddler running
around?"  As I kept reading Bones' post, I'm then thinking - I'm not
that anal!  I don't boil the water first, I don't include grain crushing
in the brewing time, since I do that at the homebrew supply store (PLUG:
Brew Shack, Tampa, FL, 813-889-9495).  Hopefully, my first attempt will
not be seven hours -- I'm brewing tonight (after dinner).

I'm excited about the first all-grain batch, which is going to be a
Trappist-style ale. (Ingredients were another gift!)

joe.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Joe Pearl                              Sr. Sales Engineer
Informix Software                      Direct Voice:  813-615-0616
8675 Hidden River Parkway              Fax:           813-632-9582
Tampa, FL  33637                       Email:    joep at informix.com
(NeXTMail welcome)

Homebrewing:  It's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!

PGP'd email preferred - for key: send me email w/subject "send me pgp key"
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:24:40 -0400
From: Joe Pearl <joep at informix.com>
Subject:  Re: Primary -> Secondary



 Christopher> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 20:05:54 -0800 From:
 Christopher> chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Christopher Pickslay)
 Christopher> Subject: Primary -> Secondary

 Christopher> I'm brewing my third batch of beer. The first two were
 Christopher> single-stage ferments, but I'm going with a two-stage this
 Christopher> time, as it's a fruit beer.  What I'd like to do is this:
 Christopher> siphon the wort from the primary into a sanitized bucket,
 Christopher> clean the primary (a 6 1/2 g carboy), and pour the wort
 Christopher> back into the sanitized carboy, using it as my
 Christopher> secondary. So, 3 questions:

 Christopher> 1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the
 Christopher> carboy, or do I have to siphon it?

I wouldn't funnel it - too much splashing and aeration.  I'd spend the
time to siphon.

 Christopher> 2) Can I leave the wort in the bucket and use that as my
 Christopher> secondary?

Is it a food-grade large bucket (like the kind most of us started with
as fermenters)?  If so, I don't see any reason why not.  As long as it
has a tightly sealed lid w/airlock, it'll be fine.

You're actually better off racking only once from primary -> secondary.
You'll introduce more chances of aeration when you rack again.

 Christopher> 3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?

I currently have a 6.5 gallon carboy, a 5 gallon carboy and a plastic
6.75 gallon bucket.  I use the 6.5 carboy for primary and the 5 gallon
for secondary.  And, when I get over zealous and have three batches at
once, I'll use the bucket for a primary.

 Christopher> Thanks,

Your welcome.

joe.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Joe Pearl                              Sr. Sales Engineer
Informix Software                      Direct Voice:  813-615-0616
8675 Hidden River Parkway              Fax:           813-632-9582
Tampa, FL  33637                       Email:    joep at informix.com
(NeXTMail welcome)

Homebrewing:  It's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!

PGP'd email preferred - for key: send me email w/subject "send me pgp key"
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:44:40 -0400
From: jds at equinox.shaysnet.com (John Shearer)
Subject: efficiency/storage

Greetings!

Three quickies for the collective:

First - Concerning lautering efficiency.  How do I determine it?  What is
considered good?  If it's bad, what are the common problems?  Is there a
FAQ?  (I looked, and I didn't see anything in the grain FAQs on this subject.)

Second - On storing beer in bottles for an extended period (several months).
I prefer to force carbonate, but I also like keeping my kegs freed up.  If I
force carbonate and counter pressure fill, how long will the beer last in
the bottles at room temp / cellar temp / or fridge temp?  (I heard somewhere
that if you don't 'bottle condition' the beer it won't last as long in the
bottle.)

Third - Regarding dirty deep frier grease.  I accidentally dumped approx 3
quarts of dirty grease from my deep frier into the boiler.  I didn't think
much about it at the time, but it made a congealed mess in my primary!  I
was out of fresh mercury to clear it up, so I didn't do anything.  IMBR?

Any and all replies would be appreciated (on the first two questions anyway
:-).  I will post a summary if response is good.

Yours in brewing,

john

jds at equinox.shaysnet.com


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 12:24:21 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: All-Grain Time

Timothy Laatsch   <laatsch at kbs.msu.edu> writes:

>FWIW, I believe the time commitment associated with all-grain brewing has 
>been severely underestimated in the late thread on that subject----either 
>that or I am just anal about sanitation and cleanliness.  ;) When you 
>consider yeast starter prep and maintenance, water pre-treatment (boiling in 
>my case), grain crushing, recipe preparation and research, pre-brewing
>cleaning and sanitation of the kitchen/brewhouse, step mashes, decoctions,
>sparging, boiling, chilling, aeration, pitching, CLEANUP, note-taking,
>computer logging of notes, racking, bottling/kegging, etc.  the time
>investment is frickin' HUGE.

One of the differences among people arguing this issue is the distinction 
between all-grain and all-extract.  I submit that it is a wide continuum 
between:

1) Opening kit can, pouring contents and tap water in bucket, pitching yeast.

and

100+) Harvesting yeast from sample, including microbiological analysis, 
growing and malting own grain, etc, etc.

Also, I submit that bottling/kegging is a separate issue completely.

My own personal data point:

I had already switched to a wort chiller, full volume boils, adding hops, 
making a yeast starter, and steeping grains.  To go from this to all-grain I 
had to mill grain, mash, and sparge.  Nothing else changed in the least. 
Milling grain takes ten minutes or so.  Mashing can take from half an hour to 
who knows what (lots of different temp rests with a Wit).  Sparging takes 
about half an hour or so (I heat up the sparge water while mashing).  So, my 
personal status is that all-grain takes at least an hour more than extract. 
If you have to start wort chilling or full-volume boils or whatever, your 
delta may be larger.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:40:25 -0400
From: Brian_Mulroney at pcmailgw.ml.com (Brian Mulroney)
Subject: new recipes

     If anybody knows of any unique all-extract recipes that are not 
     covered in "The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing" that you would be 
     willing to share, could you please send them to me at the following 
     address:
     
     brian_mulroney at ml.com
     
     Thanks

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:07:08 PDT
From: regina at alantec.com (Regina Roman)
Subject: Homebrew Kits

I'm an all-grain homebrewer who edits a newsletter for a Bay Area homebrew
club called the Worts of Wisdom.  

I'd like to include some information in our monthly newsletter to help out
brewers who are using kits, and would like to gather information on what
"good" ones are out there on the market.  

I know of one because I recently tried an excellent bitter brewed by a
friend of mine (George Schnurle).  He used a kit from Brewmaker called
"High Quality Victorian Bitter."

Besides producing a quality product, please include in your recommendations
other good qualities, i.e. good instructions, good materials, price,
availability.

Thanks!

Regina     


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 12:47:04 PDT
From: Rob Emenecker <robe at cadmus.com>
Subject: cf chillers, hops, propane cookers

Jay Reeves (w/ responses from Bill Szymczak & Rob Reed) asks about hop 
utilization with cf chillers....
 	I have finally bitten the bullet and built a cf chiller. I plan on 
using it with my next batch. Up to now I have only done partial boils and 
chilled the wort in an ice bath. I agree with Bill that the difference 
between immersion or cf chillers will be neglible. I expect to see a 
profound difference (i.e. better aroma and flavor character) when I switch 
to the counterflow chiller (not to mention better utilization by doing full 
boils instead of partials). As a side effect I am also hoping to reduce the 
amount of cash I lay out for hops (can reduce boiling and finishing).
 ..................................
Chris Barnhart....
	My envelopes with *TWO* stamps is in the mail.
 ..................................
Rick Gontarek asked about propane cookers....
	I saw a King Kooker at Sam's Club that had a needle valve set just 
behind the regular on the tank side of the gas line (which is supplied with 
the cooker). I don't know about the Cajun Cookers, but if you a reasonably 
mechanically inclined they are easy to install (don't forget to check for 
gas leaks). These needle valves provide great control over the flame. The 
one troublespot is good ole' mother nature. If it is a windy (or even 
breezy) day outside, getting a consistent flame (read: temperature control) 
can be a royal pain in the but. I tried making an American Wheat one breezy 
day and was jumping between boil overs and no boil for damn near 90 minutes. 
I ended up with a brew that I "learned" to drink (my father and 
father-in-law referred to it as Rob's American Methane Ale!... ooh what an 
aroma it had).
 ..................................
To the Borg (err HBD) collective intelligence....
	Although I can do chemistry and physics if my life depended on it, 
it is not my favorite pasttime. That said, do any of you metallurgy folks 
know of a good text (regarding the interactions of metals) that will not 
require me to good back to college for another two years of chem and 
physics. The reason I ask is simple. Now that I am entering into homegrown 
gadget heaven, I want to make sure all of my parts are compatible... an 
aluminum stock pot, stainless steel sparging screens, brass valves, copper 
counterflow chiller and racking cane, etc. Yes, I know that these are all 
separate items, but I want to try to connect everything together in an 
assemble line fashion (Henry Ford are you out there). What I would end up 
with is an aluminum stock pot with a brass nipple valve fitted into the side 
(using gaskets, nuts and bolts, whatever it takes, but NOT welded), a 
stainless steel filter screen fitted over the inside of the valve (is 
aluminum an option here?... I can get aluminum lint screens that would fit 
perfect, but I do not know if they are a good idea). From the pot valve it 
will connect to a dishwasher supply line (tubing with stainless steel 
braided covering) to the copper compression fitting into the counterflow 
chiller. (Sorry folks no ascii art). Whew! Well, is it "do'able" or will I 
get into problems at the metal-metal contact points?

============================================================================
Rob Emenecker (remenecker at cadmus.com)
Cadmus Journal Services, Inc., Linthicum, Maryland 21090
410-691-6454 (voice) / 410-684-2793 (fax)
Date: 06/19/95  Time: 12:47:04
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are only two things in life that are ever certain... taxes and BEER!"
============================================================================



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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:21:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Willits <willits at camelot.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Primary --> Secondary

In yesterday's HBD Christopher posted:

>I'm brewing my third batch of beer. The first two were single-stage
>ferments, but I'm going with a two-stage this time, as it's a fruit beer.
>What I'd like to do is this: siphon the wort from the primary into a
>sanitized bucket, clean the primary (a 6 1/2 g carboy), and pour the wort
>back into the sanitized carboy, using it as my secondary. So, 3 questions:
>
>1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
>have to siphon it?
>
>2) Can I leave the wort in the bucket and use that as my secondary?
>
>3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?

You definitely DO NOT want to pour the wort through a funnel.  At this
stage you don't want to add oxygen to your wort, as that will cause off
flavors in the finished beer.  At every transfer stage after fermentation
has begun, you want to siphon carefully, making sure the siphon outlet is
at the bottom of the receiving vessel (to avoid splashing).  Personally, I
would get a 5 gallon carboy for a secondary fermenter.  However, if money
is tight, I would use the bucket to avoid having to transfer the beer
twice.  I hope this helps. 

Michael Willits
willits at camelot.stanford.edu



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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 13:33:53 EDT
From: (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Hose for Steam, Steam Generator Usage

I got many helpful replies to my original post regarding the use of auto shop
silicone vacuum hose for a steam infusion mash system (SIMS).  Thanks to all. 
None of them said "no problem. Use it."  The fact that after running a couple
gal. of water as steam through it a chemical odor persisted led me to reject
it.

Another suggestion was braided water hose like that found in kitchen sink
squirters.  I happened to have some surplus from an old faucet.  It appeared to
be vinyl with a braided sheath.  It got too soft and limp at steam temps.
Robert Brown did report good results with similar hose, though.

One poster suggested polypropylene, a harder opaque white plastic.  I haven't
found any to try yet but will keep looking.

The always helpful Spencer Thomas suggested the Cole Parmer catalog
(800-323-4240).  They have braided silicone tubing which is rated to 150 PSI
for $300/25ft.

Mark Stevens in HBD 1748 provided a nice table of tubing specs from US Plastics
(800-537-9724) which I won't repeat.  They have 3/8" ID silicone tubing for
$96.36/100ft.

For the moment I'm using copper for the whole length. Like John Dodson I can
report a good experience with this system.  The Clyde Crashcup Brewery (now
Steamworks and Brewery) got cranked up last weekend.  The precise temp control
and only slight change in water/grain ratio are the attractions.  I got a temp
increase of about 1.5 deg. F. / min for 8 lbs of grain and 3 gal. of water.

The drawbacks are that you have to constantly stir the mash during the steam
application and that grain bits clogged some of the 1/8" holes I drilled.  TIP:
turn the steam on and off while the tube is out of the mash.  I had a loop of
36 inches but the pressure drop by the end of the loop made most of it
superfluous so I cut the outflow section back to 12".

I have had a hard time in the past hitting precise step temps with boiling
water infusions and have had to add too much water when ambient temps are below
freezing resulting in too thin a mash.  This rigs solves both those problems. 
Recommended.

- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com
76044,3204 at compuserve.com

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:34:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Yeast Farming and Marmite


Due to the recent HBD AI-bot brain fart, this was lost and Andy Walsh's post
extolling the virtues of Vegamite reminded me ...

Ray Robert <rayr at bah.com> writes:

>I wanted to ask the masses what their thoughts were on the idea of bottling 
>the yeast "sediment" at the bottom of the primary fermenter for use at a 
>later date.  Can this be done easily and successfully?

Yes.  Most people collect the sediment from the secondary as it has much
less trub and crud in it.  However, in repeatedly collecting the 
sediment from the secondary one would be selecting for less flocculent 
yeast, so it might be good to go back to the source after a number of 
generations.  I pour a 1-2 pints of preboiled, cooled water into the  
secondary, swirl it around and collect it in a sterile container.  Then
I "wash" it 3 or 4 times by letting it settle, decanting, adding more 
preboiled, cooled water, decanting, and repeating.  I end up with an 
inch or more of pure white yeast cake on the bottom of a 1000ml flask. 
If you are going to store this in your household refrigerator, which are
microbially filthy places, seal it well and place in a NEW ziplock bag.
Before opening, sanitize the neck of the container.  I invert the stoppered
flask in iodophor, then just before opening flush the neck and stopper with 
70% ethanol, but then I am anal about sanitation of my starters.

See the yeast FAQ.

Some people "acid wash" their yeast with a pH 2.5 phosphoric acid 
solution.  Suspend the yeast in the solution for 2 hours then rinse 
repeatedly as above.  This will kill bacteria but leave the yeast 
unscathed.

>Also, I ran across a product called "Marmite" in the Bread yeast section of 
>my local grocery store.  It is a yeast liquid extract for spreading on 
>crackers, sandwiches, and the like.  Are there any hard-core yeast 
>aficionados who have eaten this stuff.  (Sounds pretty disgusting IMHO).

Oh NO!!  This sounds suspiciously like Vegamite, a vile, black spread from
down-under which I unfortunately had the temerity to try while in Sydney
dining with Dave Draper, Chris Pittock, Andy Walsh (congrats on your 
Best Brewer status) and Ken Willing.  Although fine fellows all, I think 
they pulled one over on me, because NO ONE could actually enjoy
Vegamite.  It must be a continent-wide Aussie practical joke played on
the rest of the world, and actually no natives eat the stuff, but by law
every household must have a jar for visitors.

Anyway, Robert, try it, but in all fairness you must try it repeatedly, 
because I hear that it is an acquired taste. >;->

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 12:23:41 -0640
From: FLATTER%MHS at mhs.rose-hulman.edu
Subject: Re: Chocolate brew

Robert Mongeon <rmongeon at together.net> described his chocolate brew where 
he added 16 oz of Bakers chocolate to a 10 gallon batch like this:

I pitched with a good quart of Wyeast Ale mix that was at the bottom of 
another batch that I kegged at the same time. I also added a packet of 
Nottingham dried yeast just to be sure that fermentation got off on a 
good start.  Well, it has been 24 hours since I pitched (at 70 degrees) 
and still no sign of fermentation. I did notice alot of residual oil on 
the top of the batch which was probably due to the chocalate. I wonder if 
anyone else has had the same problems brewing a chocalate beer.
++++++++++++++
Actually, I just finished researching the effect of methyl xanthines on 
fermentation.  There are three chemical compounds in this group that we 
all refer to as caffeine.  Chocolate actually has none of the chemical 
called caffeine, but contains noticeable amounts of theobromine.  What I 
saw in my tests was that the generic ale yeasts, like the Nottingham 
dried yeast, didn't notice the caffeine, but went ape over theobromine.  
The lag time was much shorter when theobromine was present than without.  
In addition, the time period of active fermentation was reduced from 
three days to two.  There was also some clues that imply that ester 
formation was also reduced.  Oddly enough, bread yeast does not seem to 
be influenced by either caffeine or theobromine.  Theophyline produces 
similar response.  The down side was that methyl xanthines also 
accelerated the aging process, reducing the amount of time I could keep 
the beer before noticeable oxidation occurred.

In plain, brewer's English, the addition of chocolate should reduce the 
time it takes for the yeast to get started.  It should also cut back on 
the time your beer should spend in the primary.  The oils from adding 
chocolate instead of cocoa or pure theobromine increase the lag time for 
active fermentation.  Chocolate also reduces the length of time your beer 
will keep. In order to avoid a technical response, I have left out many 
of the details involved.  If it is of interest, I'd be happy to share the 
details of my fermentations, stimulant concentrations, and ester 
analysis.
- --------------
Neil Flatter                 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Chemistry - Math             Chemistry Facilities Technician
Novell Supervisor            5500 Wabash Avenue 73
(812) 877 - 8316             Terre Haute, IN 47803-3999
 FAX: 877 - 3198             Flatter at Rose-Hulman.edu


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Date: 19 Jun 95 13:51:59 EDT
From: "Dan Listermann, Cinci OH" <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Verb - Collapsing Foam

I am trying to find the correct scientific term for collapsing foam.  I am sure
it is out there and this august forum will find it.

TIA

Dan Listermann


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:12:33 PDT
From: DCB2%OPS%DCPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: Fermenter Question/Answer

Christopher Pickslay asks:

>ferments, but I'm going with a two-stage this time, as it's a fruit beer.
>What I'd like to do is this: siphon the wort from the primary into a
>sanitized bucket, clean the primary (a 6 1/2 g carboy), and pour the wort
>back into the sanitized carboy, using it as my secondary. So, 3 questions:

>1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
>have to siphon it?          

Siphon it to avoid aeriation. Aeriation is good before the yeast has started 
making alcohol but bad after.

>2) Can I leave the wort in the bucket and use that as my secondary?

Yes, if you have a cover and fermentation lock for it but If it were me I  
would either use the same glass carboy or buy another one. I have a 6 1/2 gal 
primary and a 5 gal secondary (both glass) that I use. If you really want to 
use the bucket as one of your fermenters, I would recommend using it for your 
primary as the beer won't be in it as long and you *can* if need be do your 
primary ferment in an open container.

>3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?
                                                                
IMHO, Yes.  Happy Brewing.

David Boe                    
DCB2 at pge.com                  
Pacific Gas & Electric Co.   

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:36:17 -0600
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: 1995 National Homebrew Competition Results

Here's the information you've all been waiting for!  (Well, at least
some of you have been waiting for it :-)

The 1995 National Homebrew Competition Results are available by sending
e-mail to info at aob.org that contains the key word "WINNERS" somewhere
in the text.

 - shawn

Shawn Steele
Information Systems Administrator
Association of Brewers                (303) 447-0816 x 118   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                      (303) 447-2825         (fax)
PO Box 1679                           shawn at aob.org          (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679               info at aob.org           (aob info)
U.S.A.                                http://www.aob.org/aob (web)

Note:  When replying to my messages, please include enough of my
message so that I know what you're replying to! :-)

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Date: 19 Jun 95 15:18:29 EDT
From: Ray Daniels <71261.705 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Food vs. Beer Grade Extracts

On the subject of extracts:

In HBD 1757 Edwin Thompson says:

"I was also warned that DME is not always appropriate for brewing since it 
is often food  grade while the  LME for brewing is the actual beer grade."

In HBD 1759, Pat Maloney (patrickm50 at aol.com) responds:

"But I thought beer WAS food!  Who told you otherwise, Ed?  Is 'beer grade'
better or worse for you than 'food grade'?"

I assume that DME and LME here refer to Dry Malt Extract and Liquid Malt
Extract.  This is only a little confusing since the initials DME are often used
to refer to Diastatic Malt Extract which retains some enzyme activity.  (Maybe
no one is using this stuff anymore.)

Yes, beer is food -- unless of course you consider all the special regulations
that apply to the manufacture, marketing and consumption of beer that don't
apply to most foods.  Let's face it, in the U.S., alcohol is treated like a
drug.  But that is a subject for a different post . . .

The real reason for this post is that I spoke with the representative from
Premier Malt during the National Homebrew Conference.  She(!) mentioned that
they DO produce a separate (dry) malt product for cooking non-beer foods that is
different in character from the extracts that they market for beer making. This
food extract is sold under the "Dia Malt" brand name, while the beer extracts
are found under the "Reserve Gold" brand.

In the Winter 1994 issue of zymurgy (page 38) you can see some of the
differences that may occur in food grade products.  In the case of Dia Malt, the
free amino nitrogen (FAN) level is markedly lower at 163 ppm than that found in
other dry extracts which range from 203 to 225 ppm.  As FAN is an important
nutrient for yeast in the making of beer, the Dia malt would be much less
desirable for this purpose than the other products reviewed.  

In addition, the carbohydrate composition -- that is the balance between the
various fermentable sugars such as glucose, fructose, sucrose, maltose, etc. --
may be quite different in extracts intended for food and beer.  This balance
also makes a big difference in brewing and you may find less desirable mixes in
the products intended "just" for food production.

Finally, both the Premier and Northwest extract reps indicated some trend toward
more extensive labeling of their products with information like color, FAN and
carbo composition -- if not on the package then at least with accompanying or
available literature.  Let's hope they follow through.

Who knows, maybe we'll eventually get enough good information on extracts that
even the all-grainers will feel comfortable using the stuff now and then!

Regards

Ray Daniels



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1760, 06/20/95