FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Butterfield Bridal Veil Ale (Christopher Pickslay)
  Laatsch's Questions (Mark Roberson)
  Re:  Liquid Yeast Experience (Nicholas Christopher)
  Globular Gummygoo Clusters (Kirk R Fleming)
  Water softeners (A. J. deLange)
  Primary -> Secondary (Christopher Pickslay)
  Re: Looking for a few good dry yeasts (Christopher Pickslay)
  What?  Beer not food?/ grainmill (PatrickM50)
  Outdoor propane cookers ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  various regurgitations (Andy Walsh)
  BOWTIE TORNADO-HBD  #1757 (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)
  Christoffel Blond (Elde)
  Seattle Welder (Elde)
  Grain Bag Partial Mash (Elde)
  Water (Gregory J Egle)
  Chocalate brew (Robert Mongeon)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 01:44:58 -0800
From: chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Christopher Pickslay)
Subject: Butterfield Bridal Veil Ale

Has anyone out there heard of this beer? A local pub has it on tap, but I
haven't been able to find it bottled anywhere. Does anyone know where it's
made? Or, even better, does anyone in the SF Bay area know where I can find
it?

TIA,


?:^{>
Christopher Pickslay
chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu
UC Berkeley



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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:22:55 -0600
From: roberson at carbonate.chem.utah.edu (Mark Roberson)
Subject: Laatsch's Questions


Fellow Brewers,

    Timothy Laatsch raises some points which have motivated me to empty the
random noise which has been fuzzing my brain <8^o>

:FWIW, I believe the time commitment associated with all-grain brewing has been 
:severely underestimated in the late thread on that subject----either that or 

    Earlier this week I cooked up a batch of oatmeal/chocolate/coffeee stout
and kept my eye on the clock to see just how long it took:  one hour the night
before to crack the grain, cook the oatmeal, and boil the water, and five hours
in the morning to mash, sparge, boil, chill, and pitch.  The yeast ranching and
stepping up of the starter to 3qt took a couple of minutes over the course of
two weeks, and is a joy in itself.  But then, "consuming passion" is a deep
understatement in my case.

:I am just anal about sanitation and cleanliness. ;)  When you consider yeast 

    The secret ingredient is two quarts of sour mash, a la Guiness.  I reserve
some wort and throw in a handful of spent grain from the sparge.  Vegetative
bacteria were nuked in the mashout, but the spores are ecstatic at the chance
to swin in 130F wort for the two days it takes for the mess to become incred-
ibly rude.  I highly recommend this procedure: on its own merits as a flavor
adjunct to your beer, as a lesson on just how hard you have to work to get a
bacterial culture established ( a cure for the sanitation obsession ), and as a
data point on just how bad a truly spoiled batch of beer can smell.  After 48
hours it gets truly REVOLTING, but after you boil off the bad guys it yields a
flavor to die for.

    I tyndalise the sour wort before I ferment, to kill off the multitude of
spores lying around:  after boiling, let it sit around to activate the spores,
which are then nuked by two more rounds of boiling.

:Can someone with some experience in doing high-gravity all-grain beers please 
:explain in detail how to use first and second runnings to make a small batch 
:of high gravity brew and a second batch of more modest gravity?  

    Haven't done this in a while so the details are fuzzy, but the principle
couldn't be more easy:  the grain will hold 0.1 gal/ pound, so mash with three
gallons of water in excess of that amount; drain that off for the big beer and
collect the rest of the spargate for the small, then procede as usual.

    Back during the conference season, when I didn't have time to blow my nose,
I was reduced to using extract for my summer weizen.  It turned out great and I
can not honestly say that it would have been better as all grain, but the botton
line is that I get a real kick out of the entire brewing process.  The flexibil-
ity for ingredients is icing on the cake...

    Now for my question:  How does fermentation temp affect the flavor profile
in weizens?  I have it in my mind that above 55F the delbruckii don't produce
much in the way of clove phenolics, so that I have sacrificed my fridge on the
altar of low-banana-esters, but I have noticed several posts lately about
hyperactivity at 65-70F.  Anybody have the full story?

						Hoppy brewing,
						Mark


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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 09:19:59 -0400
From: Nicholas Christopher <ir001265 at interramp.com>
Subject: Re:  Liquid Yeast Experience


Last time I bought liquid yeast I wasn't told to prep it for simply two days  
but to prep it for one day for each month since its production (the packet had  
a date stamped on it.).  Was three days in my case. So they do take longer to  
prep based on their age. 6 weeks seems a little far out though....

\n

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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 15:23:46 -0600
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Globular Gummygoo Clusters

RE: 1758 (extraterrestrial influences on yeast social behaviour)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, wise-guys!  *Those* answers I could get from Jack Palance :-)

> If there were three triangles, I would suggest that your fermenter is
> on top of a nuclear waste dump, but I'm stymied (but intrigued).

Thanks a lot, Tom.  Now everyone knows how I can do open fermentation
with two cats in the house and not have any sanitization problems.

Bob (the most uniquely qualified to respond) asked about my "geometry".
Although his request may have seemed somewhat indelicate, context made
it clear he was referring to my fermenter. The contained volume of beer
was a regular right cylinder with a diameter of 12" and a height of
about 10"--scientifically designed for winning competitions in the
"short and stout" category.

Now, although I think John P was a bit out-of-line with his cut about
naming the yeast Stardust, I agreed with his suggestion that there may
be an attempt being made to communicate.  Therefore, I wired the
fermenter to my satellite dish and it trained on NGC 5139.  Now, gummygoo
coalescing on the surface of the current batch is clearly forming the
pattern of a star group which I simply have not yet identified.  This
is scaring the hell out of me.

Pat B suggested I send a product sample for his analysis, but I've tasted
the beer myself, and simply can't outsource the lab work until my
in-house tests are complete. I'm sure everyone understands these tests
must be both thorough and extensive to withstand HBD scrutiny.  This
could take some time.

KRF Colorado Springs


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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:44:17 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Water softeners

Chris Barnhart <cbarnhar at ria-emh2.army.mil> asked whether water softeners
produce bad brewing water:

The function of the softener is to get the hardness out of the water and
hardness is caused by metalic ions like iron, which you definitely want
out, and calcium and magnesium which you definitely want in. Futhermore,
they usually get rid of the iron, calcium and other cations by swapping
them for sodium ions. If you have a brine tank in your system which must be
filled periodically with rock salt this is a dead giveaway that this is the
system used and your processed water will be high in sodium. In some
installations (such as mine) there is also a "neutralizer" whose job it is
to neutralize acidity in the incoming water (is your pH 7.5 going into the
softener or coming out?). Where this is the case you will have lots of
bicarbonate for high alkalinity. Take my water (please!). Out of the unit I
have 77.6 ppm sodium, 0.1 ppm magnesium, 0.1 ppm calcium, 8.5 ppm chloride,
24 ppm sulfate and 150 ppm bicarbonate. The pH is usually right around 7
and it takes about 2 mEq/l HCl to get it to pH 4.3 for an alkalinity of
just about 100 ppm as CaCO3 (note that all the other numbers were ppm as
the element). In summary, I have a fairly alkaline water with no calcium to
react with phytin to neutralize it and too much sulphate already (for the
lagers which are my favorites) so that the option of adding gypsum is not a
viable one. As frosting on the cake I've got enough sodium to frighten my
middle-aged fat-and-sodium-phobic friends (so I don't tell 'em). I'm sure
the particulars of your situation are distinct from these which are typical
for well water in northern Virginia but in general the problems with a
softener are low calcium and high sodium.

What can you do about this? First, of course, is to get an analysis of your
pre and post-softener water to see exactly what your situation is. You can
then try to fix it up to meet your brewing requirements. It is easy to put
things into the water but not always in the relative amounts you want (e.g.
chalk is 40% calcium and 60% carbonate. There is no way to get 55% calcium
and 45% carbonate using chalk alone). It is more difficult to get things
out but it can be done. For example, iron is readily removed by aeration
and filtration through sand.

There is a "filter" which will clean up after the softener i.e. a reverse
osmosis system. These get most everything out of the softened water except
perhaps 2 ppm sodium so you need to build up the water to the ion profile
you want just as if you were using distilled water. R.O. is being pushed a
lot these days by water treatement companies ("Less sodium per glass than a
slice of bread!) and it is probable that whoever did your water softener
can set you up with a system hooked up to your household plumbing. You can
also buy less expensive counter-top units into which tap water is poured.
One problem with the units sold for home use is that it takes a couple of
days to collect enough water for brewing (i.e. they only process about 5
gallons per day). You may also want to know that for each gallon they put
out about 2 gallons of waste water is produced.


A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 20:05:54 -0800
From: chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Christopher Pickslay)
Subject: Primary -> Secondary

I'm brewing my third batch of beer. The first two were single-stage
ferments, but I'm going with a two-stage this time, as it's a fruit beer.
What I'd like to do is this: siphon the wort from the primary into a
sanitized bucket, clean the primary (a 6 1/2 g carboy), and pour the wort
back into the sanitized carboy, using it as my secondary. So, 3 questions:

1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
have to siphon it?

2) Can I leave the wort in the bucket and use that as my secondary?

3) Should I just buy another carboy ($)?

Thanks,

chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu


?:^{>

====================================================================
\                                                                  /
\     So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature,     /
\          since it enables one to find or make a reason           /
\              for everything one has a mind to do.                /
\                                                                  /
\                      -Benjamin Franklin                          /
\                                                                  /
====================================================================

Christopher Pickslay
chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu
UC Berkeley



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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 22:37:12 -0800
From: chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Christopher Pickslay)
Subject: Re: Looking for a few good dry yeasts

>From: Steven W. Schultz  <swschult at cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
>Subject:  Looking for a few good dry yeasts
>
>        I totally agree that liquid yeasts are better than dry, but to
>save money on my cheap summer brews (British ales, mostly), I'm willing to
>go back to dry.

Is it really that much more expensive to go with liquid? At my homebrew
supply, it's only $3.95 liquid vs. $1.95 dry. For me, $2 for a 5-galllon
batch isn't that big a deal.


?:^{>

====================================================================
\                                                                  /
\     So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature,     /
\          since it enables one to find or make a reason           /
\              for everything one has a mind to do.                /
\                                                                  /
\                      -Benjamin Franklin                          /
\                                                                  /
====================================================================

Christopher Pickslay
chrispix at uclink2.berkeley.edu
UC Berkeley



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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 11:14:09 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: What?  Beer not food?/ grainmill

Hi gang!  I'm confused. In HBD 1757 Edwin Thompson says:
>>>>>>> 
I was also warned that DME is not always appropriate for brewing since it 
is often food  grade while the  LME for brewing is the actual beer grade.
<<<<<<<<<
But I thought beer WAS food!  Who told you otherwise, Ed?  Is "beer grade"
better or worse for you than "food grade"?  And, most importantly, is
_Stardust_ food grade or beer grade?

Seriously, I have personally had more consistant and higher quality results
with DME than LME, on average.  It's also easier to measure, easier to clean
up and it's more expensive so it *must* be better, right? ;-)  Let's not
dismiss a major brewing ingredient just because someone complains that it's
only *food grade*.  Julia Child would be shocked.  Just my HO.

And thanks to Rob for his fine post re: grain mills.  Yeah, it's long, but
invaluable to anyone considering making his or her own mill.  A fine example
of the HBD in action!  And it gives me one more reason to visit the scrap
yard!  (as if I need one)

Pat Maloney (patrickm50 at aol.com)



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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 20:52:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV>
Subject: Outdoor propane cookers

Greetings everyone.  Boy, am I glad that the digest is running again.
My mornings just weren't the same..

Two weeks ago, I brewed an all-grain Canadian Ale.  Unfortunately, the      
Baltimore weather took a turn for the worse that day, and the temp got
pretty high outside.  Add to that the fact that our dryer was cranking
out a load at full speed.  Needless to say, My otherwise tolerant wife
was not pleased that the temps in our small apartment got up to about
88 degrees.  To make a long story short, we are moving to a townhouse
in two weeks, and I proposed to her that I buy an outdoor propane
cooker (besides, I said, the new place has an electric stove, and the bills
will get pretty high when I brew :) ).  Well, she said yes, so now I am
in the market for an outdoor propane cooker.

I saw that Price Club/Costco had the Cajun Cooker dudes for about $49.95.
Are those guys adjustable, and will I scortch the bottom of my enamel-on-
steel brew kettle?  Also, has anybody used these to mash?  I am concerned
that I won't be able to get the flame low enough to boost temp in
small increments.  I also saw in my newest Williams Brewing catalogue
that they have an adjustable outdoor propane cooker for about $90
or so.  If anybody has any suggestions as to which I should purchase,
I wuld appreciate the advice.  Private email is fine.  TIA, and keep
on brewing that homebrew that you brew so well.

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of The Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD
soon to be relocated to Frederick, MD
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:56:50 EDT
From: awalsh at pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: various regurgitations

This has been was originally sent during the period
the HBD went on holiday. Sorry if it seems a little old.

Hello,

In HBD 1753 Chris asks
>i was wondering if anyone knows how to get an actual "honey flavor" into a
>finished homebrew.  it seems like many of the honey beers i've tried do not
>have a very "honey -like" character.  only a handful actually taste like
>there's honey in them and they are wonderful!
>is there a trick?  do you just use more honey or what?

You could try a slightly darker (less fermentable) honey,
rather than the light ones usually recommended.

I think *one* answer is *not* to use honey.
The honeylike character found in many Belgian ales is not there because
they added honey to their wort. This character is in fact 2,3-pentanedione,
which, along with 2,3-butanedione (diacetyl), form the vicinal diketones found 
in beer. The same brewing conditions favour production of both diketones.
The reason everyone talks about diacetyl (buttery) rather than 2,3-pentanedione
(honeyish), is because the flavour threshold is 10x lower for the former, so
is more commonly noticed. Some people will, however, be more sensitive to
the honeyish character, so will perceive "buttery" beers as "honeyish"
(including me).
I have noticed that many beers made with honey end up very phenolic
("meady") after some aging. This is very unpleasant in beer. Many 
homebrewers, tasting some of the honeyish Belgians (eg. Chimay),
immediately add honey to their beer to try and replicate it. This is 
not a good approach IMHO.
So the question is, "How does a homebrewer get that honeyish character,
rather than a buttery one?" (ie. how do we favour 2,3-pentanedione 
production over diacetyl?). I do not know the answer to this. (I wish I did).
Presumably yeast choice has a lot to do with it.
Ideas, anyone?
******************************
In HBD 1754 Brian Wilson says,

>An article has been flowing in the british media regarding faulty widgets
>in cans of Tetley Bitter. 

I heard in our brewclub the other day that Guiness has copyrighted
or patented or something (please no lengthy threads on copyright
vs. patent!), the term "widget", and that it is illegal for other companies
to use this term in describing the nitogen dispensing thingy  in their cans.
(Someone else told me Bass had the rights to this term).
So can we call them "thingies" or does Boston Brewing have the rights
to this?

*******************************
In HBD 1755, Ray Robert says,

>Also, I ran across a product called "Marmite" in the Bread yeast section of 
>my local grocery store.  It is a yeast liquid extract for spreading on 
>crackers, sandwiches, and the like.  Are there any hard-core yeast 
>aficionados who have eaten this stuff.  (Sounds pretty disgusting IMHO).

IMHO Marmite is pretty disgusting stuff and I recommend that no one 
touch it. OTH, Vegemite is a similar yeast product and is wonderful.
I spread Vegemite on my toast every day. I have, on occassion,
even put it in beer as a yeast nutrient.

Beer can taste distinctively vegemitey or marmitey, if you leave your
beer on the yeast for too long and the yeast autolysizes. This is basically
what the stuff is - autolysized yeast guts with lots of salt added. Yummy.

*************************************************
* "Real brewers eat vegemite."
* Andy from Sydney.
*************************************************


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:54:58 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: BOWTIE TORNADO-HBD  #1757

I think Capt Kirk Fleming with nthe "bowtie effect fermenter" lives a long way 
from the equator. The Coriolis forces that govern the direction of tornados in 
the northern hemisphere and cyclones in our hemisphere, and also affect bathtub 
whirlpools, are caused by the spining of the earth at its different 
circumfrences of rotation and are greatest farthest from the equator. 

Forget the math, it works vetically as well as horizontally, thus affecting the 
convection currents started by rising CO2 bubbles. That is why I think the 
stone crock behaved as it did, always convecting in one direction. The flat 
bottom vessel's geometry seems to have set up two conical convection shapes 
which you see as triangles on two dimensional surfaces(The bottom and the top) 
 . 

The convection travels at different speeds and as it slows down at the bottom, 
deposits trub like a commercial whirlpool tank, thus the different composition 
of your residue. The convection is always the same direction relative to the 
equator,(It would be a North- South bowtie axis, I think) which explains the 
compass like movement of the bowtie when the vessel was moved.

I promise you it won't affect the beer, if it really bothers you move your 
fermenter to Ecuador, South America, no Coriolis there!

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)












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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 23:29:58 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Christoffel Blond

Picked up a beer called 'Christoffel Blond' yesterday, and
found it quite good!

What kind (style) of beer is this?	(my brewing buddy thinks
that it may be a Pilsner)  It's taste is quite like that of
a Grolsch.

Does anyone have an extract recipe for this (or a similiar)
beer?

Derek


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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 23:30:41 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Seattle Welder


>>Daniel Cook <dancook at microsoft.com>
>>2. Seattle readers: any suggestions for a beer-drinking
>>welder? Not at the same time, of course.
>>

Noticed yesterday that Liberty Malt had a welded
keg-to-lauter conversion in...	You might see if they will
tell you who did it.


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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 00:26:06 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Grain Bag Partial Mash

Question on a partial mash procedure;

Can I do a psuedo partial mash by placing the malt
in a grain bag, steeping for 1 hr (at 150f), then
sparging by rinsing the bag in more 150f water?

Derek

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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 20:24:39 -0800
From: Gregory J Egle <DSGJE at acad2.alaska.edu>
Subject: Water

I just had my water tested at a lab and am trying to put together a
list of beer styles and what I need to add to the water to come
close to the parameters of each style. I've come across a lot of 
articles about what each style requires for its water, but not 
much help in the area of what to add to change mine. So far everything
I've come across is pretty vague. If anyone can help out with some
information on this give me a shout at dsgje at acad2.alaska.edu
Thanks,  Gregory Egle



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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 02:15:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Mongeon <rmongeon at together.net>
Subject: Chocalate brew

  Hello fellow homebrewers,
 I have just begun fermentation of a 10 gallon batch that had 16oz
of Bakers unsweetened Chocalate included in its boil. I pitched with
a good quart of Wyeast Ale mix that was at the bottom of another
batch that I kegged at the same time. I also added a packet of 
Nottingham dried yeast just to be sure that fermentation got off on
a good start.  Well, it has been 24 hours since I pitched (at 70 
degrees) and still no sign of fermentation. I did notice alot of
residual oil on the top of the batch which was probably due to the
chocalate. I'm not worrying quite yet, but, I wonder if anyone else
has had the same problems brewing a chocalate beer.
                   any comments?,    RM
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|     WWW:   http://together.net/~rmongeon/                       |
|  E-MAIL:   rmongeon at together.net                                |
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1759, 06/19/95