FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Stuck Fermentation??? (Tom Neary)
  Beer and Pregnancy (Neil Parker)
  aged grain (John Shearer)
  Judging (Btalk)
  Re-bottling ("pratte")
  info on Superb/Camp Chef burners? (Dave Whitman)
  Dry Malt vs. Syrup (Guy Mason)
  CO2 volumes for soda (dsanderson)
  homebrew & Christianity (Gregg Tennefoss	)
  If I had a hammer (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
  pregnancy and beer (Joe Pearl)
  More Religion. (Russell Mast)
  Calvin. (Russell Mast)
  Alcohol swabs (HT-MS)" <mkempisty at gic.gi.com>
  CO2 volumes for soda (lconrad)
  re: No alcohol beer (Keith Frank)
  Reply to Sour (before aging) imperial stout (Regina =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rom=E1n?= )
  Re: Pressure Cooker for Hops (rdevine)
  RE: Alcohol Wipes for Sanitizing ("Harney,Alan")
  Blow-off Bucket: Just Water? (Ray Daniels)
  Re: Independent judging? (Don Rudolph)
  Re: Raspberry and cherry beers (Jack Stafford)
  Homebrew Entry (/O=PRDMSMAC/S=HUMPHREY/G=PATRICK/)
  Beer and Religion (harry)
  Flaked Barley Use (imig)
  WWW Hop Page (Glenn Tinseth)
  Chillers (Norman C. Pyle)
  Looking for a winemaking list (Rolland Everitt)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:06:53 -0400
From: tom.neary at peri.com (Tom Neary)
Subject: Stuck Fermentation???


I am totally new to homebrewing and brewed my first batch on Saturday July 8.
For my first batch I picked Boston Amber kit from Northern Brewer.  I purchased
the kit about a month ago but due to vacation and work travel didn't get to it
until this saturday.  The hopped bag of extract had blown up like a balloon.
Assumably from the heat.  The unhopped bag of extract seemed fine.  So I went
ahead on my first batch.  It seemed to be fermenting like mad in the carboy 
for the first 24 hours but then bang!  Dead nothing doing the top of the beer
was flat.  I vigourously shook the carboy as as I was shaking bubbles were
emitted from the air lock at a rapid rate but as soon as I stopped shaking
the fermentation bubbles stopped.  I'm not too sure what's going on here since
for the first 24 hours fermentation was rapid but the second 24 hours 
fermentation was non existent.  Not even one bubble.


Is this a classic case of stuck fermentation?

What can I do to save this batch?

Please Help....

much thanks in advance.

Tom Neary

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 08:14:32 EDT
From: NParker at Lockheed.on.ca (Neil Parker)
Subject: Beer and Pregnancy

We (my wife and I) just had a baby and she had the occasional beer
right through the pregnancy.  Although our baby is fine, a few healthy
cases don't show the odds of having a baby with birth defects caused
by alcohol.

My logic in supporting my wife's one beer every week or two habit was twofold:

First- FES is a real problem and one way the medicos have of dealing with it
is advising that no level of alcohol consumption is safe so that women with
alcohol problems don't get started on binges with that single drink.

Second- I can't believe that women in Germany, France, Italy, etc. stop drinking
alltogether during pregnancy and the population in those countries aren't
all mentally retarded.

Now that she's delivered however, there are two regular drinkers of homebrew
so that I have to get brewing again soon!

Neal Parker

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:16:23 -0400
From: jds at equinox.shaysnet.com (John Shearer)
Subject: aged grain

Good morning all!

Now, I know there was a thread about this recently, but I don't think this
was definatively answered.  Crushed grains:  how long will they last before
their quality deminishes significantly, what can someone do to help them
last longer (if the need arrises), what can someone do to help their batch
if using aged grains (like adding another 1/2 lb?), and finally, what is it
that actually happens to the grains when they age?

I appolagize if these questions have been answered, but if I do get good
response, I will post a summary.

TIA
john


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:30:59 -0400
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: Judging

John Majetic has problems with a particular judge.

John, the thing to do is to complain to the contest organizer about this
person.
Keep in mind that people have different flavor thresholds, everyone has an
off day once in a while, etc. Also, just because you passed the BJCP exam, it
doesn't automatically make you a 'good' judge.
I've entered many contests and won many ribbons and prizes, and I'll be the
first to adimit that it can be a crapshoot!
Unfortunately it can be difficult to get enough judges for a particular
contest. Also, at this time there is not an official judge quality control
process.
I've organized a sanctioned contest, and relied on feedback from other
organizers I know regarding quality of judges. This informally keeps the
poorer judges from being invited back.

Domenick,
The judges fill out their score sheets, then briefly discuss what they found.
This helps prevent wild score differences and also bring to light differences
in perception of flavor and style.
For Best of Show, individual score sheets aren't filled out. Basically, it is
done by concensus where beers are eliminated based on how well a particular
entry represents its style.
ie, The IPA is a better IPA than the sweet stout is a sweet stout.

Advancement through the judging ranks is based on score on the BJCP exam and
experience points earned. I have just attained Certified rank (the second
level), certainly have alot to learn, and recognize my weak areas. I feel
that most other judges approach judging the same way.

To quote a famous philosopher,"A man's got to know his limitations'. ;)

Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com>

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Date:          Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:36:27 EST
From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Re-bottling

O.K., it has been over a week since this was sent with no replies, so 
I'll try again.  

Several members of our homebrew club recently suggested that I enter 
one of my beers in an upcoming contest.  This is that (IMO) God-
awful spruce beer that I have had for almost two years (they actually 
think it taste good).  The problem is that, while I have about 15 
beers left, only 3 of them are in unmarked brown bottles.  Is there a 
way to transfer the beer from marked brown bottles to unmarked ones?  
If I do, will it greatly affect the taste of a beer that has been 
aging for 1.7 years (If so, will it make it better so that I might 
want to drink it :))?  

TIA

John

________________________________________________________________
Dr. John M. Pratte                 pratte at gg.csc.peachnet.edu
Clayton State College              Office (404)961-3674
Morrow, GA  30260                  Fax (404)961-3700
________________________________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:44:19 -0400
From: dwhitman at rohmhaas.com (Dave Whitman)
Subject: info on Superb/Camp Chef burners?

I'm in the market for a propane burner, and after scanning comments from
users in back issues of the HBD, have narrowed my search down to either a
30 KBTU Camp Chef, or the 35 KBTU Superb burner.  Respective users of each
seem very happy with their choice.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen a picture
or detailed description of either burner, and I'm having trouble deciding
between them.

I've got a phone number for Camp Chef:

   (801) 752-3922 (thanks to Rich Lenihan, in an old HBD)

and will be calling them for a catalog once business hours in our
respective time zones come into alignment.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to get a lead on the Superb burners.  Does
anyone know a mail order source, or the phone number of the manufacturer?

For what it's worth, I boil in a 33 quart enamelware pot (18" diameter) and
heat sparge water in a 5 gallon SS stock pot (15" diameter).  Is either
burner incompatible with these pot diameters?


- ---
Dave Whitman
Rohm and Haas Specialty Materials
dwhitman at rohmhaas.com



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:09:40 -0400
From: Guy Mason <guy at opus.matrixnet.com>
Subject: Dry Malt vs. Syrup

All Hail the Collective!

Just wondering if anyone else has seen the same pattern that I have noticed
recently.  I have been going back through my brew records and noticed a pattern
developing.  Every beer that I've made that got rave reviews from brewers and
non-brewers alike was made using malt syrup.  The brews made with dry malt got
"It's good, but not like that Rat's [cEnSoReD] Stout you made last month!"  Has
anyone else seen this?  Could there be a technique problem?  I brew on an 
electric stove and it is hard to get a good roiling boil going.

TIA
- ---
o   o
 \ /     M A T R I X
  o--o
 / \   O    Guy Mason               voice: 203-944-2020x190
o   \ /     guy at matrixNet.com       fax: 203-944-2022
  O--O--O
    / \     MATRIX, 2 Trap Falls Road, Shelton, CT 06484
   O   O


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 10:02:59 EST
From: dsanderson at msgate.CV.COM
Subject: CO2 volumes for soda

Keith writes:


>So, I'm planning on making my first soda for the other keg (ginger 
>ALE!) and would like some help on force carbonating it.  
>... at what temp and pressure?  

I've been making soda recently with my Kids and force carbonating. I've 
been using a Carbonater(no affiliation) and 2 liter PET bottles which 
provides for some observations that give insight to what's happening.

I fill the bottles with cold whatever trying not to aerate in the 
process, leaving a couple inches headspace and apply 40 psi.

I'll shake the bottle vigorously and within a few seconds enough CO2 
goes into solution to actually collapse the bottle! I'll apply 40 psi 
and repeat this process 3 to 4 more times before the bottle maintains 
it's pressure.

I'll refrigerate 1 day and repeat the above procedure a few more 
times.

I've found that 1 more day in the fridge is needed before the soda is 
fully carbonated.

Our favorite recipe so far, Lemon Lime:
Just under 2 liters cold tap water
Juice of 1 lemon
Juice of 2 limes
48 sugar cubes(We've found this an easy and fun way to experiment)or 1/4 
pound

It's a little on the dry side at least compared to Sprite. You may want to add 
more sugar.


Enjoy,
Dave


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:08:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gregg Tennefoss <greggt at infi.net>
Subject: homebrew & Christianity

I have held off posting on this util a calm thread developed
because I agree with Dion & Dave that posts that touch on religion often
cause flame wars in most groups. I think one thing that may prevent this
in this group is the fact that we are all homebrewers. I also thing that
it is assumed that the topic is Homebrewing and Christianity as the posts
tend to have that slant to them.
I feel that the Christian teachings warns us to protect ourselves from the
influence of "evil" and to take care of our bodies. Homebrewing and the
reasonable consumption of said product falls well within those guidelines.
There is also an image that all Christians are non-drinkers and that the
church scorns those who drink. Not so. The Catholic church for example, is very
open about their acceptance of alchohol. It is the more fundamental groups that
tend to feel that drinking it any manner is a sin. There is nothing wrong with 
this as it is their right to choose their own life style.  
For what it's worth, I am an elder in the Presbytery Church and have been to
many an "out of "church" gathering that included the consumption of alcohol.
Also I might ad that the reson that we do not alow drinking withen the church
building is out of sensitivity to those who may not approve
and for those who may have a drinking problem and the church should be a safe
haven. 

On another topic: Does anyone have the number for Foxx Bev.





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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 10:38:28 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna at relay.com
Subject: If I had a hammer

in #1775, Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at orion.etsu.edu asks:
>Anyone else have a hammer experience?

I was hammered once...well... OK, more than once.
You'd think I would learn my lesson ;-)

 -Tim

Tim Fields / Vienna, VA, USA / timf at relay.com



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 11:15:11 -0400
From: Joe Pearl <joep at informix.com>
Subject: pregnancy and beer

In HBD #1777, alexmn at ix.netcom.com (ALEX NAGY) states:

 Alex> In HBD 1774 Nick Franke asked about removing alcohol from beer
 Alex> for his pregnant friend.  I am not a physician and this is not
 Alex> medical advice.  I do not believe that your friend needs to worry
 Alex> about having a beer now and then.  The effects of alcohol on the
 Alex> fetus that creates fetal alcohol sydrome (FAS) are only seen at
 Alex> "high" levels of consumption.  The government propganda and the

<snip>

All else aside, I don't believe it is necessary to take the risk of
alcohol while pregnant.  While 40 weeks might seem like a long time, it
is not.  It is a *small* sacrifice to make to be ultra-conservative
while pregnant, IMHO.  My wife is due in November and does not have
*any* caffeine, aspartame, alcohol, anti-histamines, ...  

Just my $0.02 about it - 

joe.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Joe Pearl                              Sr. Sales Engineer
Informix Software                      Direct Voice:  813-615-0616
8675 Hidden River Parkway              Fax:           813-632-9582
Tampa, FL  33637                       Email:    joep at informix.com
(NeXTMail welcome)

Non illegimati carborundum!

PGP'd email preferred - for key: send me email w/subject "send me pgp key"
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:46:34 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: More Religion.


> Subject: Religion is not beer
> 
> Dear Friends, I second Domenick's plea:  the HBD is NOT the place to talk
> about religion!  Period.  Full stop.  Take it off-line.  Everyone has
> different beliefs and someone is bound to get offended.  Believe what you
> want, talk to who you want--but stick to brewing on the HBD.

I heartily disagree.  I think if we are _just_ talking about religion, that
is a bad thing.  But, if we're talking about how religion relates to homebrew,
that is appropriate here.  If we're talking about how politics, auto-repair,
or the wholesale diamond industry relates to homebrew, that is appropriate
here.

That being said, Dave has a pint about people becoming offended.  (I'll let 
that typo stand.)  There are two things to do.  1) Try to be non-offensive,
and have a 'discussion' rather than an argument.  I've already slipped on that.
2) Try not to be offended.  If each poster can restrain themselves from being
overly judgemental, few people should become offended.  If someone becomes 
offended at reasonable discourse, that's their problem.

_That_ being said, I strongly agree with the poster who (who was it?) said
that the discussion of society as a whole (vis a vis beer) would be more 
interesting than a discussion of religion alone (vis a vis beer).  

I also want to note that my statements about Calvinism aren't about Calvinist
doctrine, but about the influence of Calvinist-like thoughts on secular 
society.  (Which has, in turn, influenced some religions.)  So, my discussion
should have focused more on society than religion.  I didn't make this clear
enough in my first post in this thread, so I'd like to clarify now and 
apologize to anyone that found my unwarranted generalizations about Calvinism
to be offensive.  (One person I know of, probably means several I don't.)  
My generalizations were about what I now call "secular-Calvinsim", which is
akin to Puratinism, sort of. 

It's also worth discussing attitudes of society on beer _outside_ the US.

I, for one, am weary of having to defend my craft by over-emphasizing the 
culinary aspects of it and ignoring the fact that I appreciate a good buzz. 
It's a whole experience, and if you denigrate part of it, you lose out.  Let 
wine-drinkers spit theirs out after tasting it, I want the whole beer.

I, for one, have enjoyed this thread so far.  I've learned a lot, and have yet 
to be even slightly offended.  (I'm not that easily offended, but if we keep 
the thread going long enough, I might get offended.)

 -R

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:59:02 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Calvin.


A little bird told me :
 
 > Re: Calvinism, I think you might be confusing some people on HBD by
 > using the name of the religion in a different sense.  If you had used
 > Weber's phrase, "worldly asceticism", that might have gone over
 > better.  But maybe that's not quite what you meant.
 
 Not quite, but it's in a similar vein.  I should dust off my Weber and 
 double-check.  Let's all have a homebrew.  
 
 -R

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Kempisty, Mark (HT-MS)" <mkempisty at gic.gi.com>
Subject: Alcohol swabs


In HBD #1777 Ken B. mentions using leftover alcohol swabs for sanitizing 
yeast packs and such.

A year or so ago when I took my kitty to the vet for his check-up and shots 
I asked the doctor why do they just poke the needle in without trying to 
sterilize the skin.  He replied that the alcohol is merely used as a solvent 
to make sure the skin is clean and does not guarantee sterility (though 
kitty is taken care of in that department too).  According to him, the 
needle's sterility is more important because it is penetrating the skin.

This jives with other comments on the fact that one should use hydrogen 
peroxide instead of alcohol to cleanse wounds and incisions.

     Mark

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:19:38 -0400
From: lconrad at apollo.hp.com
Subject: CO2 volumes for soda

Here's my "recipe" for making soda water in a cornelius keg.  This is because
this is what is easy for me to do, not because I've done exhaustive research
into the best possible temperature and pressure.

	put water in keg.

	put keg in refrigerator overnight.

	put CO2 hose on keg, with regulator set at 35-40 PSI.  (More would
probably be more efficient, but even at that pressure some of my poppet valves
have problems.)

	put keg on its side, and with your foot rock it back and forth until
you no longer hear CO2 hissing into the water.  You don't have to rock
continuously.  This process will take 10-20 minutes.

	dispense and serve.

Happy soda making.  The first time I brought this to a home brew club event,
people asked me if I used any special water treatments.  If anyone has tried
adding commonly available water treatment chemicals to soda water and liked
the results I'd be interested to hear about it, but I haven't done it.


			Laura

  Snail Mail:           -------    Laura Conrad
  Hewlett-Packard Co.  |   /       Phone:  (508) 436-4243
  300 Apollo Drive     |  /        Internet: lconrad at apollo.hp.com
  Chelmsford, Ma 01824 | /___      Mail stop: chr-01-fo  
		       |_______    Fax: (508) 436-5117
		       --------




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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:43:43 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: re: No alcohol beer

>From *** Bruce DeBolt ***

In HBD 1774 Nick Franke asked about no alcohol beer, lot's of responses on 
why his friend shouldn't be concerned about moderate consumption but no one 
answered his original question.  

I did this last year around Thanksgiving (same type of request Nick) by 
heating homebrew with lots of stirring.  If you can search HBD start around 
early November and look for the detailed posts.  Basically you have to 
drive off a lot of liquid to get the alcohol reduced.  By evaporating > 30% 
of the volume I made a beer with 0.1% alcohol.  I put it in a PET bottle and 
carbonated with a Carbonator cap and CO2.  E-mail me if you can't find the 
old digests and I'll send them to you.  The flavor was definitely better 
than commercial NA beer, but I know heating it degraded the original flavor.  

Kelly Jones posted an excellent explanation of the physics involved, stating 
that regardless of temperature you have to drive off at least 25% of the 
volume (going by memory, don't quote me) to get a beer into the 0.5% range 
(legal definition of alcohol free).

Since then I've received a technique from Matt Kelly (sent by Dave Silver) 
where you freeze beer in an upside down PET bottle, drain off the unfrozen 
liquid (alcohol and some dextrins and hop oils), then carbonate it using a 
Carbonator cap and CO2, or add yeast, priming sugar and bottle.  Sometime 
this summer I'm going to try this with a number of beers and analyze the 
alcohol content by gas chromatography.  This sounds like a much better way 
of preserving the original beer's flavor vs. heating.

The real problem is having a cheap and easy way to measure alcohol content 
directly at home, I haven't heard of a good one yet.  Someone suggested a 
vinometer, I checked into it and was told they are calibrated for wine and 
since beer is a different matrix the results would not correlate.   

Using either alcohol removal technique above you could get quite a bit of 
variation in results.  Hopefully I'll make the time to check this in more 
detail. 

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 10:04:43 PDT
From: regina at alantec.com (Regina =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rom=E1n?= )
Subject: Reply to Sour (before aging) imperial stout

This is in response to a post from Lenny Garfinkel in HBD#1771 on July 03:

>My question: does Imperial Stout go through a sour phase?  Of course,
>I'll wait another couple of months before passing final judgement.  I'm
>just curious.

Lenny,

I've brewed three batches of Imperial Stout using the all-grain recipe from
"Brewing the World's Great Beers," and never found the beer to go through a
sour stage, such as the one you describe.  It does take a while for the
beer to age, though, and I found it's best to let it sit for three-four
months.  If I open it a few weeks after brewing, it has a sort of "raw"
taste (probably that lb. of dark brown sugar in the recipe), but this
mellows with time and becomes balanced.

Regina




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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 10:09:25 TZ
From: rdevine at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Pressure Cooker for Hops

> I've discovered that the bittering efficiency of hops is increased
> if it is boiled in water rather than wort.
>
> Would using a pressure cooker speed up, or increase the efficiency
> even further? How about using one for extraction of the hop oils
> for a hop tea to put in the secondary?
> -
> Dr. Chris Luchini, University of Arkansas at Little Rock, Hybrid Rocket Lab
> 575 ETAS, 2801 S. University, Little Rock, AR 72204 (501) 569 8442 fax-8020

There was a research paper on the efficiency of hop extraction
using higher temp that I came across a while ago.  If I remember
right, the 1950's era paper found that a 250 F temp water bath
produced the best extraction rate.  Pressure didn't really matter.

However, the difference in extraction didn't outweigh the expense
of the more complicated system.  That is why the industrial brewers
don't do anything special -- they add hops to the kettle.  The
advantage of protein coagulation is worth the expense of using
slightly more hops.

Bob Devine
rdevine at microsoft.com
[[ PS, if anyone really wants, I can hunt up the paper.]]



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Date: 10 Jul 1995 11:06:47 U
From: "Harney,Alan" <harney at mail.labmed.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Alcohol Wipes for Sanitizing

(Insert standard delurk apologetics/newbie self-flagellation here)

Regarding Ken Berkun's post about using alcohol wipes for sanitizing - be
very careful here! It's a standing joke amongst hospital phlebotomists (the
guys who draw your blood) that alcohol wipes are pretty good for cleaning
your lunch off your skin, but not terribly good at killing off the little
nasties growing there. Bacteria are incredibly adaptive - some Micrococcus
species live in the cooling water jackets around nuclear reactors. And then
there's the little guys who thrive at the mouths of geothermal vents, 500
degrees F. 2 miles under water! It isn't hard to imagine some bug gaining
alcohol resistance. 

Hey, bleach is cheap! Why take chances?  You might hurt the beer.....

Alan

_________________________________________________________________

Alan Harney                      	 "Anything worth doing,is worth
Dept. of Laboratory Medicine	       doing to excess"
University of Washington			          
harney at mail.labmed.washington.edu
_________________________________________________________________


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Date: 10 Jul 95 15:05:36 EDT
From: Ray Daniels <71261.705 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Blow-off Bucket: Just Water?

In HBD # 1776, Al Korzonas writes regarding the contents of blow-off buckets:

"I use water, yes, water.  Ideally, boiled (to sanitize) water. Why?
Because if the temperature changes and any liquid gets sucked up into the 
carboy, I'd rather it be water than iodophor or bleach.  Let me ask you
this question: unless you plan to let it sit there for a year, why would
you want to put sanitizer in your blowoff bucket?  Nothing is going to
crawl up the blowoff hose and into the fermenter, so why worry?"

A few quick calculations show that the temperature would have to drop 20 degrees
(from 70 deg F to 50 deg F) for the shrinkage on 5 gallons of wort to suck a
blowoff tube full of liquid and actually start delivering sanitizer to the beer.
(Assumptions:  0.25 inch or 6.35 mm ID, 1 meter long blow off hose.)

IMHO, if your temperature control for fermentation is that bad, you'll have
worse problems than getting sanitizer in your beer.

Also, if you have pitched anywhere close to enough yeast, you will have positive
pressure blowing out of the tube within 12 hours of pitching.  

Another also, many people chill their wort to a temperature colder than room
temperature.  Therefore the wort temperature is actually RISING rather than
falling during those first few hours.  (On the other hand, if you don't use a
wort chiller and pitch at 80 or 90 degrees, you actually might see this
problem.)

Al mentions possibly boiling the water, but doesn't mention sanitizing the
bucket or the hose.  Therefore, you may have bugs present from either of these
sources.  Once that blowoff scum gets in there, anything can happen.

As you might have guessed by now, I DO believe in using sanitizer, not only in
my blowoff buckets but also in my air traps.  While the air traps occasionally
do a little sucking action when I put them in the refrigerator, a watchful eye
can prevent any problems.  (I've never once had a "chlorine" taste or a chlorine
comment from a judge -- and I've had A LOT of my beers judged.)

As for sucking up into a blow off tube,  I've never seen the liquid level in the
tube rise above the level of the liquid in the bucket.  Not once in more than
100 batches.  

Thus the problem of sanitizer pollution seems to be a mythical one.  In
contrast, wort infection is a very real problem -- one that many brewers
experience on a recurring, even if occasional basis.

So now I ask you, if there is no risk of backing up sanitizer solution into the
fermenter, why wouldn't you do everything you could to eliminate the possibility
of infection by using sanitizer in the blow-off bucket?

Regards


Ray Daniels



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Date: 10 Jul 95 15:20:36 EDT
From: Don Rudolph <DON at nova.mhs.compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Independent judging?

Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> asks:

>Does each judge do their own independent taste test?  That is, are 
>the judging sheets completed without discussion among the judges, or
>is some sort of consensus reached among the tasting judges, or does
>it vary from event to event?  

In the handful of competitions I have judged, the beers are judged 
independently, then panel discussion follows.  In the panels that I felt 
were most successful, we first discussed the style(s) to be judged in the 
flight, talked about commercial examples, and read the AHA guidelines.  
The senior judge would usually lead this discussion.  Then, during the 
evaluation, each judge gives the beer a score independently.  After the 
scores have been recorded, the panel discusses the scores and 
merits/shortfalls of the beer being judged.  When I was the senior judge, 
I made a point not to dominate the panel's evaluation, and to encourage 
opinions from apprentice judges.

This discussion does a few things.  First, it helps smooth out large 
discrepancies in score.  This does not happen often (as in the case John 
Majetic wrote in the same Digest).  When it does happen, the panel's 
scores should not be more than 7 points apart.  Second, it may lead to 
perceptions of flavors that another judge did not notice, or may have 
incorrectly identified.  Humans perceive different flavors and aromas to 
different degrees, and the discussion of these characteristics may lead a 
judge to alter their score.  Third, the discussion may point out errors 
in evaluating a beer to style.  For example, a judge may have marked down 
an English Pale Ale for diacetyl, when diacetyl is acceptable for the 
style.  

The system is by no means perfect, and completely subjective.  
Personalities tend to come into play, as the most dominant and articulate 
panel member will have more influence on the score than a meek, 
accomodating one.  Also, keep in mind the ultimate purpose of evaluating 
beer is , ostensibly, to give feedback to the brewer, not to award 
ribbons (am I naive or what?!?!).  I am admittedly disappointed if I 
don't win an award, but I am also impressed with the accuracy of the 
comments I have received back from the beers I have entered.  If you want 
an objective evaluation of your beer, send it to a lab.  If you want ego 
strokes, send it to your Mom or beer chugging friends.  If you want to 
win an award, send in a 1.080 Gravity/80 IBU ESB.  If you want an honest 
evaluation, a sanctioned competition is a great way to go.  YMMV.

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
don at nova.mhs.compuserve.com

  



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 12:45:55 PDT
From: stafford at alcor.hac.com (Jack Stafford)
Subject: Re: Raspberry and cherry beers

On Fri, 07 Jul 95, Robert.Fike at ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov  wrote:
>     I would like to make a Raspberry Wheat and a Cherry Wheat beer.  I 
>     will be useing extract kits and adding hop plugs in the boil.  Maybe 
>     even adding .5oz to 1oz hop plugs for dry hopping. 
>     
>     My question is on the preparation/addition of the fruit.  I have been 
>     told that the fruit should be added after the vigorious fermentation 
>     has stopped.  Does anyone agree?  Or if you have a alternate 
>     suggestion, please let me know. 
>     
>     How should the fruit be prepared?  I was going to put it in those 
>     muslin bags.  Sould I boil the fruit for both the nasties and to 
>     soften it up then put the cooled fruit and water into the fermentator?
>     Or give the fruit a ride through the blender (cherry pits removed)?


  I would suggest putting the whole hop plugs in a muslin bag.  This will
cut down on the particulate matter to be sparged from your wort.  Just fish
the bag out of your wort and all that "lettuce" comes out with it.  :)

  When I brew with fruit, I freeze it the night before brewing.  Then crush
it a little (you could use a blender) and add it to an empty 5 gal plastic
bucket. (Carboys explode, plastic buckets just blast the lid off.) Pour the
hot wort over the frozen fruit and wait 15-20 minutes. This will Pasteurize
the fruit. Then I top off the bucket with H2O and pitch the yeast. I've
heard that boiling the fruit will create pectin, which makes hazy beer.

  Sorry if this is a re-run.  This is my first post to this mailing list
please bear with me and I'll get the hang of it.

Cheers,
Jack  stafford at alcor.hac.com



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:08:27 -0600
From: /O=PRDMSMAC/S=HUMPHREY/G=PATRICK/ at x400.pprd.abbott.com
Subject: Homebrew Entry

I am a relatively new brewer (six batches) and I have never entered a beer in
any type of competition.  
I am considering entering a couple in a local competition but I am wondering if
their request for six (6) 10-14 oz bottles of each brew is out of line.  This
seems like alot and since I brew 5 gallon batches, I don't have many bottles of
the beer(s) I want to enter left.  ;-)

What is the "normal" number of bottles requested for a competition?

Thanks,

Pat
patrick.humphrey at abbott.com

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:41:23 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Beer and Religion

Beer IS my Religion. And I worship regularly.


Harry

 .................................................................
 ...but a good cigar- is a smoke!
 ..................................................................



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:48:53 -0700
From: imig%eccx.dnet at esu36.ateng.az.Honeywell.COM
Subject: Flaked Barley Use


Hello

I have an Irish stout extract recipe, that includes flaked barley as
an ingredient, that I wish to try.  But being a new brewer I have a 
few questions on how to use the flaked barley.  

I looked through recipes in the Cat's Meow, and the consensus seemed 
to be to steep the flaked barley with the other specialty grains 
before the boil at 155-160F, but at a longer time, 45 to 50 minutes 
(I usually steep for 30 minutes).  Is this a good practice?  Also do 
I crush the flaked barley like a specialty grain, or just leave it as 
is?  Should I use a mesh bag (again like a specialty grain) for the
steeping, or just dump them in the brew pot?

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas please let me know, private 
Email is fine.  I can post a summary, if there are enough responses.
TIA.

Bob Imig
Phoenix, AZ
IMIG at esu36.ateng.az.honeywell.COM


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:46:18 -0700
From: gtinseth at teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: WWW Hop Page

Sorry to interrupt the beer and religion discussion, but I'd like to
announce that the Hop Page is now available for your viewing pleasure.
Point your browsers at <http://www.teleport.com/~gtinseth/> and have at it.

Among other things, you'll find the latest version of Norm Pyle's Hop Faq
(version 5), my latest alpha acid utilization numbers, and some online
pricelists for reputable hop sellers.

Hope you like it,

Glenn



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 16:47:24 MDT
From: Norman C. Pyle <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Chillers

Russell Mast writes:

>I don't use a proper counterflow chiller, but something similar.  (A
>counter-immersion chiller?  It's a big roll of Cu pipe under cold water
>in a bathtub or laundry-sink.)  Anyway, I do nothing about cold break at

I've wondered about our terminology of chillers for a while.  I believe we're
limiting ourselves quite a bit by classifying chillers as "immersion" or
"counter-flow".  It seems they are being classified by what happens to the
coolant, rather than what happens to the wort (the coil containing coolant
is immersed, or the coolant is pushed in a counter-flow around the wort).
Isn't what happens to the wort the most important?

There are many chiller variations, Russ's is but one.  I think it is more
important from a brewer's POV to talk about what happens to the wort, maybe
use names like "bulk" and "incremental" chillers.  The distinction is that
the former cools the entire wort at once, while the latter cools only small
increments at a time.

For example, a friend of mine uses an immersion chiller, but the chiller is
immersed in ice-water, not wort, and the coolant is only moved around by
stirring every once in a while.  The wort flows through the chiller, but it
is in no way a "counter-flow" chiller.  This is an incremental chiller
immersed in ice-water.  It has much more in common with a CF chiller than an
immersion chiller, but its construction and use is more akin to the immersion.
It is most definitely an incremental chiller though, as the wort is cooled a
little bit at a time.

What might be more important is whether or not the chiller is "off-line"
or "in-line" with the wort flow.  The distinction I'm trying to make is that
in one case, the cold-break is left behind in the kettle and in the other it
is carried into the fermenter.  Subsequent process steps (another racking,
for example) can remove this cold-break of course, but the chiller doesn't.

For those of you who are considering building or buying chillers, you should
consider a few trade-offs.  Bulk (off-line) chillers are good for leaving
cold break behind in the kettle (both chillers leave hot-break behind).  I
believe the literature is clear that leaving hot-break behind is desirable,
but there is considerable debate over whether cold-break removal is necessary
or desirable.  Bulk chillers are easier to clean, as only the outside is
exposed to wort.  They are easy to sanitize as well - just dunking them in
the boiling wort for a few minutes prior to chilling is sufficient.

Incremental (in-line) chillers have the advantage of quick chilling without
the necessity of stirring the wort to help their efficiency.  They allow the
use of a hop-back to pass hot wort across fresh hops just before it is
chilled.  This gives the ultimate finish hopping effect, as the hop compounds
are at elevated temperature for only a short time and then are returned to
room temperature.  Bulk chillers don't allow this, as the wort is already
cooled before leaving the kettle.  Cleaning and sanitizing in-line chillers
must be done with chemicals, as they cannot be scrubbed on the inside where
the wort passes.  Since they cool only a small portion of the wort at once,
the chilling is quicker, and better cold-break is said to be achieved.  They
are also more difficult to construct.

I don't know if this discussion helps anything, but being such a gear-head, I
thought I'd rehash it a bit.  I use an incremental chiller (CF) but I can see
the advantages of others.  One more thing:  I'm not hung up on these funny
labels I've put on chillers.  "Incremental" is a bit misleading, as it implies
some sort of step cooling process.  "Off-line" is a bit off-base, too.  I'm
just throwing out some other alternatives.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 19:12:14 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Looking for a winemaking list



Do any of you brewers also make wine?  If so, do you know of a
winemaking list on the 'net?

Rolland Everitt


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1778, 07/11/95