FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Beer and Religion (Jeff Hewit)
  CO2 volumes for soda ("Keith Royster")
  dumplings; pregnancy; cherries (ALEX NAGY)
  Re: Beer and Babies (Dan Sherman)
  Religion is not beer (Dave Draper)
  Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #17... (TomF775202)
  Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #17... (TomF775202)
  God and Homebrew (jim.hilliard)
  Alcohol Pads for Sanitizing (berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com)
  A few comments on judgeing. (JOHNMAJ)
  Independent judging? (Domenick Venezia)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:05:00 -0400
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Beer and Religion



I attend church fairly regularly, and I also teach Sunday
School to high schoolers.  I'm not a holy roller, but
I do consider myself in the ranks of believers.  

Whenever I hear about someone saying that alcohol
is evil, I can't help but recall that Jesus's first miracle was
changing water into wine.  He also served wine at the last
supper.  So what's the problem?  If our Lord drank, why can't
we?  I have yet to hear a reasonable expalantion of why
"religious" people should be against alcohol.  I guess it has
something to do with Puritanism, or the fear that somewhere,
someone may be having fun.

- --
Jeff Hewit
******************************************************************************
Eat a live toad first thing in the morning and nothing worse
will happen to you the rest of the day.

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Date:          Sat, 8 Jul 1995 14:01:09 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       CO2 volumes for soda

I was planning on serving two homebrews at a wedding party, but one went 
bad and I don't have enough time to brew another.  So, I'm planning on 
making my first soda for the other keg (ginger ALE!) and would like some 
help on force carbonating it.  I know there are some soda brewers out 
there, so if any of you force carbonate, at what temp and pressure?  Or 
better yet, how many volumes of CO2 to you try to acheive?  The guys at 
the brew store said to put the pressure at about 50psi, but they didn't 
know at what temp.  I'm not sure my regulator goes up that high, so I'm 
hoping a lower temp will acheive the proper CO2 level.  Thanks.

Also, I apologize to the HBD for the double sig-line waste of BW on my 
last post.  Accidents happen.         - Keith Royster

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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:14:58 -0700
From: alexmn at ix.netcom.com (ALEX NAGY)
Subject: dumplings; pregnancy; cherries

In HBD1776 Robert Fike asked about Cherry (& raspberry) beers.  
While I haven't actually brewed this, I have partaken of such a 
treat.  It was brewed by Cherryland Brewing in Sturgeon Bay, WI, 
heart of the USA sour cherry growing (so they say).  They have a 
small operation in Sturgeon Bay where they do some small batches 
(but contract out the majority of their production elsewhere).  
You might talk to their brew-master.  Their product is rather 
enjoyable.

In HBD1775 Richard Hampo gave a receipe for "beer dumplings".  A 
word of warning to all.  If you make these things as big (1.5 x .5 
x .5) as he instructs in his posting, you'll probably end up with 
hand grenades, as these things SWELL as they cook.  My mother made 
these things all my life.  I have watched her and learned.  I have 
also made these little guys.  I looked in some of my cook books, 
one of them says to do it (create them) as Richard instructed (on 
a wet cutting board), while the other advocates the way mother and 
I do it.  I think that his approach is not the best way because 
the dough is so very sticky.  (Try both and make up your own 
mind.)  By the way, the cook book that uses Richard's approach 
said to make them about 1/2 inch long and about as thick as a 
pencil.  I think that is about right.  The way I advocate creating 
these delicious critters is rather simple and straight forward.  
The dough should be rather sticky, thicker than cake batter but 
thinner than bread dough; about the consistancy of heavy brownie 
batter would be about right.  Try it, you'll learn.  Have a BIG 
pot of water at a ROLLING boil (salted).  Put a gob of dough/ 
batter onto a medium-sized plate.  Take a teaspoon and dip it into 
the boiling water.  You need to bring it up to temperature and 
lubricate it at the same time.  It'll only take 2-3 seconds.  Hold 
the plate over the edge of the pot, tipped towards the water 
slightly.  Take the spoon and fling a gob of batter into the 
boiling water.  After you get the hang of this, you should be 
flinging in about 3-4 shots of dough every 2 seconds or so.  Dip 
your spoon as soon as you detect any tendency to stick to the 
spoon, say after every 10-12 gobs.  They'll tend to sink when 
first flopped into the water.  As they cook they will rise to the 
surface.  Take one out from time to time and bite into it.  When 
too raw, the center will be gummy and not too appealing.  By the 
time they rise, they're close to being done.  Skim out the 
finished ones, while the others continue to cook.  Eat 'em while 
they're hot.  We like to create a "gravy" out of sour cream, 
paprika, and the juices of the cooked chicken.  This is a classic 
Hungarian Sunday dinner.  Another (favorite) variation uses grated 
(raw) potatoes in the dough and then served with fried, shredded, 
green cabbage.  This is one of my weaknesses.


In HBD 1774 Nick Franke asked about removing alcohol from beer for 
his pregnant friend.  I am not a physician and this is not 
medical advice.  I do not believe that your friend needs to worry 
about having a beer now and then.  The effects of alcohol on the 
fetus that creates fetal alcohol sydrome (FAS) are only seen at 
"high" levels of consumption.  The government propganda and the 
actions of the neo-prohibitists have generated an atmosphere of 
fear for the pregnant women, and by extension, would have the 
demon-rum banned once again.  There is mounting evidence that 
moderate (two days per day) alcohol consumption has numerous 
benefits.  I quote from chapter 19 of "THE FRENCH PARADOX" (ISBN 
0-9625271-1-4; Perdue, Marton, & Shoemaker; 1992; Renaissance 
Publishing, Sonoma CA): [Disclaimer implied]

     "Pregnant women probably need not abstain from alcohol
     altogether as no detectable adverse relation was found
     between the child's mental and physical development and
     the mother's weekly consumption at levels in excess of
     100 grams absolute alcohol.... There is no legitimate
     reason to frighten, rebuke or abort mothers who consume
     lightly."  
The author goes on to define lightly as about one drink per day 
(eight per week).

I suggest that your friend (and other interested parties, i.e., 
all home-brewers) get a copy of this book and MAKE UP HER OWN 
MIND.  This is a personal decision and not one that should be 
mandated by the government or any other so-called do-gooders.

I think that the discussion on SOCIETY and alcohol consumption 
needs to continue.  I don't think that we need to focus on the 
religious aspects, but we need to look at the larger context.  
There are a number of people out there that feel the USA needs to 
bring back prohibition.  Obviously, I don't agree or I wouldn't be 
part of this forum.  It comes down to these people being so 
insecure in their belief systems, that they think that they know 
what's best for everybody else.  Its a matter of personal 
responsibility.  In other words I say to those narrow-minded 
jerks, BUZZ OFF AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

Alex

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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 14:58:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman at sdcc3.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Beer and Babies

>  This is covered in an article a few months back in a cool Beer magazine
>called All About Beer.  The author gave some history about what used
>to be called groaning Beer, which was given to pregnant women during Labor.
>He also quoted some studies saying that Beer during pregnancy IN MODERATION
>(as usual) is fine.  The general consensus on "IN MODERATION" meant no more
>than one Beer at a sitting.


Be careful, here.  The first trimester of pregnancy is the most important 
in the neurological development of the fetus.  Studies that I have run 
across recommend that pregnant women refrain from drinking alcoholic 
beverages, as well as taking drugs (even aspirin) during this time.  I 
have read that an occasional alcoholic beverage during the second and 
third trimesters is OK ("occasional" meaning one alcoholic beverage 
every 2-3 days maximum).  

Of course, I don't believe everything I read, but I'd be more likely to 
believe a published medical study than an article in a beer magazine.  
(This is not meant to be a flame.)

Dan Sherman
San Diego, CA
dsherman at ucsd.edu

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Date: Sun, 09 Jul 1995 09:08:56 +1000
From: david.draper at mq.edu.au (Dave Draper)
Subject: Religion is not beer

Dear Friends, I second Domenick's plea:  the HBD is NOT the place to talk
about religion!  Period.  Full stop.  Take it off-line.  Everyone has
different beliefs and someone is bound to get offended.  Believe what you
want, talk to who you want--but stick to brewing on the HBD.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- ----
*****************************************************************************
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia
Email: david.draper at mq.edu.au  Fax: +61-2-850-8428  Tel: +61-2-850-8347
                  ...I'm not from here, I just live here...


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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 22:23:46 -0400
From: TomF775202 at aol.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #17...

<Two consecutive batches.
Don't tell me that you actually sanitize your kettle, lauter tun, and mash
tun before you use them. Why? The wort is boiled anyway so why worry (within
reason) about what goes on before the boil sanitation wise?!


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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 22:23:44 -0400
From: TomF775202 at aol.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #17...

<Can I brew safely on an electric stove?
I say yes. Others may disagree. I have brewed successfully with a 10 gal.
stainless on an electric. I never did achieve a rolling boil but a light boil
none the less. I would recommend a propane burner like the Superb but you can
boil on an electric. If you do use an electic, I would recommend some sort of
a trivet between the element and the kettle. One can be fashioned from a coat
hanger.

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Date: Sun, 09 Jul 95 12:49:47 -0400
From: jim.hilliard at circellar.com
Subject: God and Homebrew


                             


Another note and opinion about the effects of religion and homebrewing:
Very interesting that this comes up, because my wife and I were just mentioning
it at dinner.  This week, we had a barbecue at our house, and knew that the
attendees were not tee-totallers.  Therefore, the alcohol flowed somewhat
freely.  There was my (very good, IMO) homebrew, a Pilsner degenerate, perfect
for barbecues, which most tried, and some drank.  (There are wine-drinkers and
beer-drinkers in our circle of friends, and I haven't tried the wine making
yet.)  Anyway, all were filled, none were drunk (which there is a biblical
mandate against) and none were damaged spiritually (I think...)
  
The reason it came up at dinner tonight is, most of the attendees were from our
church, a conservative, evangelical Presbyterian church.  I contrasted the
general acceptance of alcohol at our get-together with the potential reaction
from my parents, who are fundamentalist, legalistic Pentecostals.  I remarked
that while we discussed theology over good beer (as C.S. Lewis and J.R.
Tolkien, and perhaps even Calvin - only he drank wine), my parents would have
said that it wasn't even a Christian party!  I fear at times that my legalistic
up-bringing has caused me to turn too far to the permissive side, so I work
hard at moderation in my "imbibing", but thoroughly enjoy the process of
boiling the malt through to the drinking of the first beer that can be called
"clear" - and consider it a wonderful gift from God - the outfall of a
perfectly created order that uses so much mystery to make such a perfect
beverage!
 
Jim Hilliard
 
Jim.Hilliard at Circellar.Com
 
Beer - not just a breakfast drink anymore!!


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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 95 14:09:45 PDT
From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com <berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Alcohol Pads for Sanitizing

Having recently had to give my wife a number of shots, I now have a
goodly supply of alcohol pads left over.  These are 70% isopropyl
alcohol soaked, sterile cotton pads, used for swabbing skin before
giving injections.

Sounds like a handy dandy sanitizer.  I used them to wipe the
Wyeast package and the bottle when I made my last starter and to
wipe the bottle top again when I poured the starter into the wort.

So far so good, beer smells fine.

Any opinions on whether this was a good idea?  Of course the bottle
was already pre-soaked in chlorine water.  The pads are cheap (
about a penny a piece) and convenient.

Comments appreciated.

Ken B.
Seattle

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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 17:48:55 -0400
From: JOHNMAJ at aol.com
Subject: A few comments on judgeing.

    As a person who has had a few bad experiences with judging, these
discussions of styles, and judgings have got me thinking, so heres my two
cents worth.

    I once sent a beer into the AHA best of club IPA competition. This was
undoubtly one of the three best beers I have ever made. This beer was tried
by three professional brewers, and got rave reviews from all of them. One of
these brewers has won a silver medal at the GABF for his IPA. Now that you
know what the quality level of the beer was, here is my beef.

    In the club only competition my beer was judged by four judges, 1
national, 2 recognized, and one certified. When I got my score sheets back my
scores were 45 form the certified judge,  43, and 44 from the 2 recognized
judges, and 29 from the national judge!

    Correct me if I am wrong but aren't all the judges scores sopposed to be
within 7 points of each other. I did not sample the other beers, and cannot
say mine would have won if this low score would have been raised to the 7
point range, but the piont is this should never have happened.

     I also noted that his comments were that "The malt totally overwelmed
the hops in this beer. As the grain bill was 10 lbs M&F 2 row, and 8 ozs M&F
crystal, and the beer had 70 IBUs, and was dry hopped with 3 Ozs Fuggles, I
cannot feel this right.

     Next I entered this beer in a nationwide competition our club put on.
Once again four judges, once again 3 40s, and one low score, this time a 37
exactly 7 points below the highest score. When the results were read after
the judging was complete the 3 high judges told me that I should have won, as
they all thought it was the best beer, and that they had to get the
competition organizer involved to get the man to bring his score up to the
37. When I got home I relized this was the same national judge who gave me
the low score at the best of club only!
  
     The whole point of this is that the entrant has no way of feeding bad
complaints like this to the BJCP. I am not saying that the BJCP should be
declare me winner after the fact. What I think would be a good Idea would be
for the entrant to send his score sheets in, with an explanation of the
technical fault, Such as the illegal 16 point difference in my beer, and if
it has merit the BJCP should write the organizer, and remind him to bone up
on the rules. Also if there are repeated offenses in one competion, maybe the
organizer will get only 4 points instead of 5. 

    I would also like to see the guidelines state that if the is a dispute
between the judges, the organizer appoint, another judge to judge the beers,
and be the tie breaker.

John Majetic

PS. Can anyone tell my how to subscribe to the judgenet.   

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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 17:24:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Independent judging?

I have a question concerning the process involved in BJCP judging.

Does each judge do their own independent taste test?  That is, are 
the judging sheets completed without discussion among the judges, or
is some sort of consensus reached among the tasting judges, or does
it vary from event to event?  

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1777, 07/10/95