FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Brewing Questionnaire Author Responds (Gaspar James M)
  Yeast Cake (CINIBUMK)
  Inlet Filters for aeration (Chuck and Grace Burkins)
  RE: Brass, FDA vs. AOB ("Palmer.John")
  cloudy blowoff hoses ("mike spinelli")
  God help us in this burning hell! (Kenneth K Goodrow)
  Lagering (Imakebeer)
  Competition Announcement (Stephen T. McKenna)
  brewery job (MicahM1269)
  Dry Hop Impaction (Stan Gregory)
  Yeast sediment/Laaglander staters/Banana Weizen (Philip Gravel)
  Re: Killer oatmeal #3 ("Andrew D. Kailhofer")
  Homebrewing and Septic Systems (Jim Grady)
  Homebrewed Septic Systems (Curt Freeman)
  DWC Belgian Pilsner Malt (Phil Brushaber)
  Re: Over carbonation problems (david lawrence shea)
  Alt with Wyeast European Ale (1338) and Irish Ale (Keith Frank)
  IPA with two yeasts / Bitter from same batch (Keith Frank)
  Sanitation tip for racking canes (Keith Frank)
  Bulk purchase of Durst or Ireks Pils Malt (Shane Docherty)
  Bulk purchases of Durst or Ireks (Shane Docherty)
  When to stop sparging ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Re: Re: Ginger wit recipe (Jeff Renner)
  Cherries. (Russell Mast)
  bottle conditioning lagers /RIMS (Eamonn McKernan)
  Wet and Dry Flaming (Tim Laatsch)
  Motorizing Malt Mills (GRMarkel)
  keg question. (MSMHRN01.RADAMS01)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 14:46:09 -0500
From: Gaspar James M <jmg7730 at usl.edu>
Subject: Brewing Questionnaire Author Responds

	I am responding to the criticisms of my brewing questionnaire
that I believe stem from a lack of understanding of the architectural design 
process. The origin of an architectural thesis is an idea, a point of view, 
a passion. This 'nugget' is then developed into a thesis topic, not a building
type. It is at this point in the design process that thesis research truly
begins, the topic being the lens through which the research is focused. For
architecture to be successful it must take into consideration a multitude of 
variables, one of most important being the people who will actually use the 
building. Without an understanding of the potential users, a building is 
nothing more than a shell, void of the richness and celebration that is 
necessary to architecture. Unfortunately, our world is filled with shells.
	
	The vast majority of projects that architects are hired to design are
business related: corporate, institutional, medical, governmental, small
business. In the economic reality of business today any client who hires an
architect will demand evidence of quantifiable claims submitted in a design
proposal. If a proposal states that office workers will be more productive
because of Design A versus Design B the architect must be able to 
substantiate this position. One method of research, among many, that will 
allow an architect to substantiate a position is the use of a questionnaire. 
It must be pointed out that responses to a questionnaire are small, but 
important pieces of information necessary in the development of a design 
project.

	A successful architectural design in the 'real world' is the result of
the efforts of individuals from a variety of professions: architects, landscape
architects, engineers, sociologists, marketing analysts, contractors,
electricians, plumbers, carpenters, steel workers and so on. I do not have a
team to assist me in my research. As an architecture student the success or
failure of my thesis is my responsibility alone. I posted my brewing 
questionnaire in an effort to develop a picture of the brewing community.
With your responses I hope to develop an understanding that I might not
otherwise be privileged to, and therefore, allow my design to truly represent
the needs of its intended users.

	This was my first public release of a questionnaire. Of course there
are flaws and I expected criticism - that is part of the learning process. What
I did not expect was a lack of understanding in the purpose of the 
questionnaire. There is an obvious lack of understanding of what an architect
does for his/her fee and how the design process works. Any confusion that 
my brewing questionnaire has caused is unintentional. In no way have I 
misrepresented myself, who I am, the purpose of the questionnaire or how 
the responses will be handled. The reason I asked  if a responder would be 
willing to complete a second questionnaire is that, as my research continues
and my understanding deepens, the formulation of a building type will emerge.
To give the exact building type I have in mind at this point in time could skew
responses to the brewing questionnaire. I apologize if I inadvertently offended
some of you with this brewing questionnaire. That was not my intention.


				James Gaspar    jmg7730 at usl.edu

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Date: Mon, 24 JUL 95 16:0:9 EST
From: CINIBUMK at ml.wpafb.af.mil
Subject: Yeast Cake


I just racked my latest batch of IPA from the primary fermenter and found 
that the yeast cake which is usually a smooth dense layer looks more like a 
rather loosely packed layer of browned hamburger (for lack of a better 
description).  The only difference from what I have done in the past was to  
use darker crystal malt (120L instead of 60L) and Irish moss.  The 
fermentation temperature was 70-72F, not the usual 66-68F.  Yeast is Wyeast 
#1968.  Anyone have any ideas? 
     

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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:08:57 +0059 (EDT)
From: Chuck and Grace Burkins <burkins at world.std.com>
Subject: Inlet Filters for aeration

In HBD 1788, Bryan P. Dawe said

>Also, I am planning to use a 5 or 10 micron inlet filter as an airstone
>in my aeration system.  Previous postings on this forum indicate that these
>are available from RAININ (1-800-4RAININ).  I will give these people a
>call at some point, but I do not have a catalog.  If there is someone
>in the HBD Collective with a current catalog that can make a recommendation
>and provide a catalog number and price

Bryan:
I use these inlet filters that you describe all the time on HPLC's (an 
instument found in many protein chem labs). I cannot attest to their 
utility in you application.  I checked catalogs for Rainin and Upchurch 
(800-359-3460). At work I use the Upchurch part at $13 for Part No. 
A302. Rainin does however have a filter which is claimed to have a 
stepped connector capable of connecting to 1/16, .085, or .119 inch 
teflon tubing. ( Part No. 05-0141, $ 12.35). Both of these filters are 
stainless steel and have a porosity of 10um. 
I could only guess at the optimal porsity. None of the filters of this 
type that I've seen would be small enough to stop bacteria, although the 
size of the bubbles formed might be of some importance. Rainin also sells 
a filter much like these in 2um and 5um.  Hope this helps.

Chuck Burkins
burkins at world.std.com 


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Date: 24 Jul 1995 14:16:36 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: RE: Brass, FDA vs. AOB

Dion Wrote:
>OK, John, so how do you react to the blurb in BT about the FDA
>"outlawing" brass in contact with food pH < 7 ?  (page 12, v3n4).   Is
>this just another one of the FDAs, "Well, we're not sure so we'll just
>disallow it" cover their ass schemes??

>I use a small number of brass fittings and have always basically
>agreed with you in regard to this issue.  I still am not going to
>worry, but maybe the FDA has some "proof" behind their "guidelines".
>What is really crazy is that this applies to "copper and copper
>alloys".  I can maybe understand a cause for concern of lead in brass,
>but pure copper???

As a matter of fact: I had been contacted by Jim Neighbors of AOB (not Gomer)
to help prepare an Alert and information sheet that was sent out to many
concerned parties. I provided references from the ASM Metals Handbook
explaining under what conditions Copper and Copper alloys would be dissolved by
acidic solutions.
The upshot is that beer does not corrode copper or copper alloys by itself. It
can act as a electrolyte for galvanic corrosion, but so can tap water.

The reason for the FDA Alert is that copper can cause heavy metal poisoning
when dissolved into food or water and ingested in mass quantities. So will
lead, cadmium, and lots of other metals.  This IS a case where the FDA has
taken a legitimate concern and expanded it to an illegitimate solution. They
would better serve the public by explaining that low pH foods and liquid will
dissolve copper under oxidizing conditions. If you were to whip beer full of
air, then it would dissolve copper. (Matter of fact, if you were to oxygenate
your wort in a copper vessel, you would dissolve a lot more than normal beer
would.) The same holds true for other acidic foods. Beer that has not been
aerated or beer that is post fermentation carbonated will not significantly
corrode copper (no oxygen).

By the way, for those of you who are relatively new to the HBD, brass does
contain lead as an aid to machining properties. During the machining of brass,
the lead becomes smeared over the machined surface, where it can be gradually
dissolved by acidic solutions. We are talking about minute amounts (micrograms)
smeared over small surface areas. I do not consider it a threat. 
Nevertheless, it can be removed by a soak for 10-15 minutes in grocery store
white distilled vinegar and common hydrogen peroxide, mixed in a 2:1 volume
ratio of vinegar to peroxide. The brass will turn a buttery gold color as it
cleans. If the solution turns green, then you have gone a bit too long and the
copper is starting to dissolve.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: cloudy blowoff hoses

Does anybody know how to clear up the cloudiness in my 1" blowoff hoses.

Is it caused from soaking them in Bleach solution?

Thanks,  Mike

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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:01:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at orion.etsu.edu>
Subject: God help us in this burning hell!


	As eagerly as you reached this message, thinking it was another 
exciting religion post, it is not.  Sorry.  Rather, I am writing on the 
burning hell of East Texas in which I currently reside -- specifically, 
the heat wave which is holding up my brewing.  Yesterday I had a batch 
planned, but alas, 100 degree weather.  

	My quandry is this, I usually don't use air-conditioning even in 
such heinous conditions, but I am wondering if anyone has input on how to 
brew in the heat -- how to get around it, etc.  I don't have an extra 
refrigerator for lagering.  I have heard of those belts that can be 
wrapped around fermenters to keep them at a steady 78 degrees (anybody 
have any results on these buggers?).  I don't want to give in to the fact 
that I might have to wait another month for things to cool down, but will 
that be the case?

	I'm not nuts for abstaining from air-conditioning, just a grad. 
student with a wife and two cats.  Maybe I can sell my brew for donations 
and make enough to afford more AC.  Anyone done that before?  Other ideas?

Gracias,

Kenn

Thought for the day:  "Nothing changes until it becomes what it is"  
							--Fritz Perls

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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 19:54:49 -0400
From: Imakebeer at aol.com
Subject: Lagering

After two years of making ales, I've decided to try to make a lager. I have a
cold box and can regulate to temp. down to 45 deg F. The only thing I am
unsure about is pitching the yeast. I plan on using the Wyeast liquid Lager
blend and making a starter. 
I am assuming I should follow the directions on the package of yeast and pop
the inner sack and let it rest at room temp (70 deg) until it swells. Once I
make my starter and pitch my yeast, should I cool the starter to 45 deg or
let it sit at room temp? If I shouldn't cool my starter, should I pitch at 70
deg and try to cool my wort to 45 deg? My only concern then is cooling the
wort too rapidly and shocking the yeast.
If anybody has experience making lagers and can give me a step by step
procedure on yeast pitching, from package to fermenter, I would much
appreciate it. All the references I have only give fermentation temps, but no
procedures on how to get the yeast going. Private e-mail is fine, I'll post a
summary.

TIA,
Robert Hops


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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 19:59:51 CDT
From: stmckenna at amoco.com (Stephen T. McKenna)
Subject: Competition Announcement

	   The Urban Knaves of Grain and Famous Liquors present the

	      Famous Urban Knaves of Grain Homebrew Competition
    
			An AHA-sanctioned competition
    
			  Saturday October 21, 1995
                    
			     Famous Liquors
			     105 E. Roosevelt Rd.
			     Lombard, IL  60148

All styles are welcome.  The organizers reserve the right to combine some
categories if there are insufficient entries.  Judging will be according to
AHA style guidelines and will be conducted by BJCP-certified judges and
apprentices.  Ribbons will be awarded for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in each
category judged; and for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd best of show.

Entries are due between October 9 and October 17 to Famous Liquors.  Entries
may be delivered in person or shipped (UPS).  Please package all entries
securely and indicate "Famous/UKG Competition" on the outside.

The entry fee is $5 per entry (if entering 1 to 3 beers) or $4 per entry (if
entering 4 or more beers).  Checks should be made payable to "Urban Knaves of
Grain".

Two 10-14 oz. bottles are required per entry.  Bottles must be...OK, OK, you
know the rules.

Entry forms and style guidelines will be available at Famous Liquors or by
contacting Steve McKenna (708-961-7846, stmckenna at amoco.com) or Frank Dobner
(708-979-5124, fjdobner at intgp1.att.com.  Please refer questions to Steve or
Frank, not Famous Liquors.

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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:15:05 -0400
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: brewery job

I have an opening for a assistant brewer. Long hours, hard work, reasonable
pay.
Angels Camp, Northern Ca. Serious inquirys only
e-mail or 209 736 2739    6- 2:30 PDT
micah millspaw

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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 22:24:02 EDT
From: cn1428 at coastalnet.com (Stan Gregory)
Subject: Dry Hop Impaction

First post. Made an all grain English pale ale (bitter) and decided to dry
hop with a 0.5 oz E. Kent Golding plug. First mistake was adding the plug to
the primary before fermentation had settled down. The aroma was scrubbed by
CO2 for the most part. Later racked to secondary and probably should have
dry hopped then. I didn't. Decided to add a plug of K. Golding to the Corney
at kegging, having read that hops float. Big mistake. They don't all float,
and small hop particles impacted the out flow. Tried back flushing the
beverage side with CO2, thinking that would clear the obstruction. It
didn't. Finally ended up attaching a copper Chore Boy scrub pad to the
siphon tube and transferred the beer to another keg.

Is there a good way to dry hop in a keg or should it go in the secondary?
Thanks for any experience and advise.
Stan Gregory
Jacksonville, NC
cn1428 at coastalnet.com


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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 21:39 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Yeast sediment/Laaglander staters/Banana Weizen

===> Kitty O'Neil asks about clearing yeast sediment:

>I'd like to hear some ideas for clearing yeast sediment from finished beer.
>I've left ale in secondary for 3 weeks or so which has cleared 90% of the
>sediment, but I still get a little in the bottom of my bottles.  Is it
>possible to end up with no sediment?

Not if you bottle condition, i.e. prime and let the yeast carbonate the
beer.  To get no sediment, you'd have to filter through a a very fine
filter or pastuerize your beer.  You'd then have no yeast to condition
the beer so you'd have to force carbonate.

===> Lee Bollard asks about using Laaglander DME for yeast starters:

>     The other day I bought a bunch of Laaglander DME for making yeast 
>     starters.  Today I read about the high percentage of unfermentable 
>     sugars in this DME.  Will this affect my yeast starters?

As far as yeast starters are concerned, I don't think it really matters.

===> Mark Peacock asks about ruined beer:

>I live in the MidWest, and was brewing a wheat beer with Wyeast #3068
>Weihenstephan yeast during last week's heat wave.  I just racked to the
>secondary what smelled like a banana smoothie.  Is my beer ruined?

I don't think so.  Weizens have clove and banana notes to them.  As the
fermentation rises, the banana notes tend to dominate over the clove
notes.  Over time, the banana notes will fade.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 06:51:03 -0500
From: "Andrew D. Kailhofer" <andy at aerie.bdy.wi.ameritech.com>
Subject: Re: Killer oatmeal #3

In message <58630.paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>, "mike spinelli" writes:
>Yo Andy !
>
>I read your thread on a Pear brew and caught your ravings about your
>Oatmeal Stout.
>
>How 'bout firin' me your recipe?
>
>I've been dying to get a good recipe since trying Sam Smith's Oatmeal.
>
>TIA, Mike

Not only for Mike's edification, but also for everyone else...

I did a partial mash OMS (Oatmeal Stout #2) that took a 1st/BOS at the
'94 Midwest Regional, and wanted to try it all-grain.  Boy, am I glad
I did.  The comments so far have ranged from "Wow!" to "Sam Smith's
has got nothing on you!"  to "This is the best beer I have ever had
anywhere, anytime!"

Oatmeal Stout #3

Use Wyeast Irish Ale, stepped twice to 1qt.

We were working with bottled water from central Wisconsin.  In 16qts
128F water, dough in with 14# Klages and 2# Quaker "quick" (the "1
Minute" rather than the "5 Minute") oats.  [No, don't use "steel cut"
oats, and don't use the "5 Minute" kind.  You have to pre-cook them,
and it's a hassle.]  Rest at 122 for 30 min.  Add 2t Burton water
salts.  Heat to 149F over 15 minutes.  Rest for 50 minutes.  Raise to
159 over 15 minutes.  Rest 50 minutes.  [In actuality, the last step
was to heat to 165 over 15 and rest for 2 hours with continuously
falling temps, ending somewhere around 150F] Add 1/2# 50L crystal,
1/2# roasted barley, 3/4# "chocolate" malt, 1/4# black patent.  Raise
to 170.  Hold 10 minutes.  Transfer to lauter tun, rest for 30 minutes
to stabilize the grain bed (make *sure* you underlet this, or you'll
suffer the consequences).  You'll probably want to insulate your
lauter-tun for this part.  Sparge with 8gal 180F water.  Boil to
reduce volume appropriately.  [We had kettle size problems...  Given
larger kettles and lauter-tuns, we could have gotten even more good
runnings than we did.]  Once you think that your volume is right...

This is T=0.  Add 1-1/2 oz. 4.4% leaf Fuggles.  At T+20 add 1-1/2 oz
7.7% Brewers Gold pellets.  [No, I don't remember why I used the hops
in that order.]  At T+80, add 2t Irish Moss and you immersion chiller.
At T+98, chill.  Aerate with filtered air (or go ahead and pour it
back and forth between two carboys about 27 times to actually get
enough dissolved O2).  Adjust OG from 1.092 to 1.072 [we overshot our
reduction, and had to adjust to the planned OG of 1.072, Thanks to
Diane.] Pitch.

Ten days in the primary.  Three months (yes, three months, you should
try it, it makes a beer smooooooth) in the secondary.  FG = 1.020.

Enjoy!

Andy
 - --
  Andy Kailhofer  Sr. Analyst, Ameritech Network Services   414/678-7793
  andy at aerie.bdy.wi.ameritech.com                      FAX: 414/678-6335
  740 N Broadway, Room 430,  Milwaukee, WI  53202-4303
  pXoXsXtmaster at ameritech.com   Member: League for Programming Freedom


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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:59:46 -0400
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrx.an.hp.com>
Subject: Homebrewing and Septic Systems

There have been several posts in the past few years asking about the
effects on a septic system of dumping bleach down the drain.  Well, I
just moved into a house with a septic system and was talking to my
plumber when he said that it would really help out the septic system if
once a month I would dump a bunch of yeast down the drain!  He went on
the say that his friend who owns a local sewer & drain company told him
(this is getting to be gossip at this point!) of a customer who was a
homebrewer and his septic system was in very good condition because of
all the yeast that goes down the drain (I assume he uses a sanitizer!).

So now I have to brew at least once a month.  I hate it when that
happens! :-)

- -- 

Jim Grady
grady at an.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group
Andover, MA

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 8:40:53 EDT
From: Curt Freeman <curtf at hpwarkv.an.hp.com>
Subject: Homebrewed Septic Systems
Full-Name: Curt Freeman

Jim Grady writes:

>There have been several posts in the past few years asking about the
>effects on a septic system of dumping bleach down the drain.  Well, I
>just moved into a house with a septic system and was talking to my
>plumber when he said that it would really help out the septic system if
>once a month I would dump a bunch of yeast down the drain!

I assume the yeast doesn't thrive in the septic system as in one huge
underground ferementer (you'll never think of Brown Ale in the same way
again). Perhaps to the critters that inhabit the septic tank - "Yeast is
good food".

Now I know one way a post and a response can show up in the same issue
of the digest!

- --
Curt Freeman    curtf at an.hp.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 07:58:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at u2u.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: DWC Belgian Pilsner Malt

Through a cooperative agreement with my homebrew club I have an
opportunity to buy DWC Belgian Pilsner Malt for $25 for a 50 lbs.
sack. Before I do I'd like your input...

What do you think of this grain? Has it provided good results?
Would it be a good substitute for my base (2-Row) grain in recipes?

- ----
USER-TO-USER PCBoard (214)393-9317, 9 Nodes, Dallas, TX

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:08:24 -0500 (EST)
From: david lawrence shea <dshea at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Over carbonation problems

Phil Brushaber wrote about over carbonation in his bottles.

Phil, yes you can uncap your bottles, let them sit, and then recap.  I 
have done this on a number of occasions with great results.  Take a large 
group of bottles uncap them and let them sit.  You will want to use one 
bottle as a test bottle for carbonation.  Sip this bottle every 5 minutes 
or so until the carbonation is at a more desirable level.  A word of 
warning, this can be messy.  Usually, my bottles have foamed over the top 
slightly leaving a mess on the bottles and counter.  After you recap, just 
wipe the bottles and put them away.  The foam that is inside the bottles 
after recapping will disappear in a few hours.  Finally, this process 
always seems to take longer than expected. My average wait has been about 
30 to 40 minutes for carbonation to settle, although I have only done 
this a couple of times.  Good luck, hope this helps.

David L. Shea
dshea at nickel.indiana.edu
Indiana University

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:57:46 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Alt with Wyeast European Ale (1338) and Irish Ale 

***** from Bruce DeBolt *****

Since Wyeast 1084 makes such good stouts and porters I wanted to 
compare it to my standard alt yeast (Wyeast 1338) using the same 
wort.   The original recipe came from Zymurgy's Winter 1994 
article on Alt, with modifications from HBD input and gut feel.  
I've been trying to duplicate Otter Creek Copper Ale, but it's 
been so long since I drank one (Texas is a long way from 
Vermont) I can't honestly say how this compares.   

Recipe for 5 gallons:
7 lb Shrier 2 row pale
1 lb German Munich
1 lb German Vienna
1/2 lb Brit. Carapils
1/2 lb Belgian 50 Lov. crystal
1/2 lb Brit. 50 Lov. crystal
1/2 DWC Aromatic
1/2 lb German wheat 
1 oz. Roast Barley added last 10 min. of mash
Mash at 156-155 for 60 min. 
1/2 tsp gypsum in very soft mash water.

Hops
 - Tettnanger 0.7 oz. (3.8a) and Liberty 0.6 oz. (5.2a) 70 min. 
 - Liberty 0.5 oz. each at 30 min., 15 min., and 5 min. 

Wort split into two fermenters, with a one quart starter of each 
yeast.  Fermented at 66-70F in primary for 7 days, 72-80F in 
secondary for 10 days.  O.G. 1.053, SG for both yeasts 1.018 

Flavor comparison after two months in the bottle:
 - Malt aroma - 1338 a little more pronounced than 1084
 - Malt flavor - 1338 is smoother, but I prefer the slightly 
"rougher" flavor of 1084 
 - Bitterness - 1338 has a pleasant slight bitterness in the 
finish, 1084 a little more pronounced
 - 1338 has a fruitiness that is not as noticeable in 1084.

Comments - I prefer the 1084 overall.  At a recent club meeting 
the vote was for 1084.  Both beers are good, but the 1084 flavor 
is more distinct.  With a lower FG or more bittering hops it 
would be just what I'm after.  

Has anyone made a pale ale with the Irish Ale yeast?   

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:59:40 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: IPA with two yeasts / Bitter from same batch

***** from Bruce DeBolt ******

After hearing the praises of the ESB yeast on the Digest I 
compared it to 1056 on an IPA.  At bottling I diluted the 1056 
version 50% with water to make a low alcohol "IPA", what I got 
was a good Bitter.

Recipe for 6 gallons:
9 lb Shrier pale
0.25 lb 110 Lov. Brit. crystal (wanted 80 Lov., but store didn't 
                                  have it)
0.5 lb 50 Lov. Belgian crystal
0.5 lb 50 Lov. British crystal
0.75 lb British carapils 
0.5 lb Belgian wheat (head retention)

Mash at 155 F, one hour, with 1 tsp gypsum in very soft mash 
water.  1.5 lb Briess pale DME added at the boil

Hops - Cascade pellets (6.1 alpha) for all additions:  
 - 1.8 oz. 60 min., 0.5 oz. 30 min., 0.5 oz. 15 min., 0.5 oz. 2 
min.

Pitched 3 cup starter of each yeast.
Dry hopped 1056 in secondary with 0.35 oz. Cascade (3 gal)
Dry hopped 1968 in secondary with 0.25 oz. Cascade (2.5 gal)

Primary ferment 7 days at 68-73 F.  14 days in secondary at 76-
85 F.  S.G. 1.061, OG 1.013 both yeasts

Notes
 - Comments on HBD indicated the ESB yeast would benefit from 
rousing the carboy, so I roused both to be fair.  1968 fermented 
a little slower than 1056, but the FG's were the same.

Flavor comments after 6-8 weeks in the bottle:

 - Common attributes of 1056 and 1968 batches - No hop aroma 
(disappointing), caramel flavor, bitterness lingers, warming 
alcohol sensation.  Wyeast 1968 ESB has a pleasant, mellow 
diacetyl flavor up front, then the bitterness kicks in and 
lingers nicely.  The 1056 bitterness is up front and throughout, 
not as smooth as 1968, more "in your face".  These beers may be 
closer to an ESB than an IPA with the caramel flavor.

 - Normally I would dry hop with 1 oz. of Cascade on a 5 gallon 
batch, but I cut back this time to try for a more subtle aroma, 
but there was none.  Given the high alcohol content and long 
time in the secondary I was a little surprised.  The hops were 
'93 pellets stored in the freezer in a thick polypropylene 
bottle, perhaps they were too old.  Next time I'll try whole 
Cascades from Just Hops and go back to 1 oz.   

 - 50% Diluted 1056 (essentially 1.030 OG, 1.007 FG) -  I tried 
this after coming back from Colorado on vacation and the first 
thing that popped into my mind was "Sawtooth Ale" from Left Hand 
Brewing, it tasted very similar.  Maybe next time I'll dilute 
the whole batch and make 12 gallons of this instead.   I should 
have diluted some of the 1968 batch also to get more of a 
traditional Bitter.  Note:  I used a dilute solution of corn 
sugar, 1/16 cup in 36 ounces water (for one six pack), to get 
enough carbonation, but for a true bitter you might want to 
leave out the sugar altogether in the dilution water.  This idea 
came from various people on the Digest who have discussed 
high(er) gravity brewing and dilution as a way to get more 
flavor in lower alcohol beers. 


Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:01:11 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Sanitation tip for racking canes

***** from Bruce DeBolt ******

I shared this at recent club meeting and based on the positive 
response decided to post.  When sanitizing my racking cane I put 
it in a longer piece of 2" PVC pipe with a PVC cap glued on the 
bottom.  It will stand on its own.  Fill with iodophor and just 
pull out when needed.  I cut most of the bend off my plastic 
racking cane so it would fit inside.  It's also a handy 
container to stuff your siphon hose in, but that takes a little 
cramming.  

This came in most useful when I finally used an accumulated 
series of equipment and procedure tips from the Digest.   Prior 
to getting my equipment act together I used to pour cool wort 
from the 33 quart brew pot through a funnel into the carboy, 
making a mess in the process and not helping my back at all.  
Now I rack from the brew pot with a 3/8" copper racking tube 
through vinyl tubing, into a short piece of copper tubing with 
holes drilled in the top (to suck in air), connected to the 
carboy by an orange plastic carboy cap. The siphon is started by 
sucking on a sanitized tube conneced to the other outlet on the 
carboy cap.  Once assembled the whole thing is sealed off from 
any potential microbes except for the racking cane.  I connected 
the siphon tubing to the racking cane, placed the cane inside 
the iodophor filled PVC pipe, and carried them together out to 
the garage (it helps to have a carboy handle).   Just before 
siphoning, pull the cane out of the iodophor, let it drain and 
place in the wort.   Works great for doing split batches with 
different yeasts as you just crimp the hose when you've filled 
one carboy, move the  assembly to another carboy and let it go 
again.  

I've also switched from a plastic false bottom to a copper 
manifold in my Gott cooler and think it works much better - no 
floating and very easy sparges. 
 
A belated thanks to all who have posted on these topics over the 
last year and a half.

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:15:13 -0800
From: docherty at Arco.COM (Shane Docherty)
Subject: Bulk purchase of Durst or Ireks Pils Malt

Does anyone know the address or phone number of the wholesalers for Durst
or Ireks Malt ???   I would like to put together a club buy for a ton or so
but don't have any addresses.  Our club is in Anchorage, Alaska so anywhere
in the Northwest or on the West coast would be closest if there are
multiple wholesalers.  Any suggestions on the cheapest way to ship it also
gratefully accepted, probably by barge from Seattle.

I'm looking for good Pils and Munich malts in particular, so any other
suggestions also accepted, e.g a DeWolf-Cosyns wholesaler, but from what
I've read lately Durst or Ireks are likely to be the best the available.

Private email please as I'm a sporadic reader over the summer.
Thanks in advance.

Shane Docherty - Anchorage, Alaska



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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:15:54 -0800
From: docherty at Arco.COM (Shane Docherty)
Subject: Bulk purchases of Durst or Ireks

Does anyone know who the wholesalers of Durst or Ireks are ??  I would like
to put together a club grain buy for a ton or so, but don't have any
addresses or phone numbers.  We're mainly interested in good quality Pils
and Munich malts for this buy, but any other addresses of distributors for
future reference would also be appreciated.  Any suggestions on the
best/cheapest way to ship it up to Anchorage would also be good.  Probably
by barge out of Seattle with a consolidator ???

Please reply by email as I only read the HBD sporadically over the summer
and will be gone for a week.  TIA

Shane Docherty - Anchorage, Alaska



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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 12:33:40 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: When to stop sparging

A recent post stated:
 "For convenience, I also note that until the *hot* SG falls below
 1.000, there is no need to chill the sample.  With a typical (150F
 outflow) sparge, you can keep going until about 0.990 *hot* SG.

 =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)"

I use the same technique, 1.00 hot wort out of the tun I stop, I may be 
able to squeeze a few more points out but figure its not worth the risk of 
tannin extraction.   



Lee Menegoni	
NEC Technologies
1414 Mass. Ave / MS 2110
Boxborough MA 01719-2298
v 508-635-6282
f 508-264-8787
LMenegoni at NECTech.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 13:11:00 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Ginger wit recipe

Carl Etnier (A transplanted Yank in Trosa, Sweden, Number of days since
last snowfall: 70) asks:

> But what is "grain of paradise," pray tell? Sounds like an epithet
> for our beloved barley, but you've got it listed under spices. My 
> dictionary says it means either the medicinal African plant
> _Aframomum melegueta_, or cardamom.

Rajotte mentions it and Michael jackson suggest that it may be a secret
ingredient in som wit(s?).  The look as though they are indeed related
to dardamom, but I have a fair colledtion of Indian, other Asian and
Middle East cookbooks, and can't fin it listed, either under "grain(s)
of paradise) or _A. melegueta_, so I don't know their origin or in what
kind of cooking they are used.  I got my 3 gm. from Dan McConnell who
got them from Tony Babinec (Thanks, Tony), but Dan has seen them at the
spice place whose name escapes me in Detroit's Eastern Market.  They are
very aromatic and resiny in taste with a pungent peppery aftertaste.  It
certainly has an aromatic similarity to cardamom, but it is quite
distinct.

> And cardamom (also spelled
> cardamum) can either be the Asiatic _Elettaria cardamomum_ or the
> inferior _Amomum cardamomum_ from the East Indies, according to my
> deep American Heritage Dictionary research in spice botany. What did
> you use?

You don't think I'd use anything inferior, do you?  ;-)  I buy cardamom
at the local food co-op, and it seems identical to that sold in Indian
groceries, so I feel sure they are the Asian variety.  It is a favorite
spice of mine, but there aren't that many dishes that use it.  Indian
cuisine is a passion of mine!

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu




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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:09:44 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Cherries.


> From: Nick Hiams <oleum at spuddy.mew.co.uk>

> PS does anyone know what to to with between 5 and 10 lb of dark very ripe
> cherries. I can't eat any more [I must've eaten about 10 lb already in the
> last week...and my wife ...and my kids...and everyone at work]. I thought
> of steeping them in brandy to make cherry brandy something like sloes and
> gin but I'd rather make a cherry beer. Anyone have a recipe for Liefmanns
> Kriek? This is gorgeous.

You could try the lambic digest.  They consider Liefmanns a bit too sweet 
(and Lindemann's downright syrupy).  If you're going to go for the rest of
the lambic character, you'll need some Brettanomyces, which is going to 
ferment polysacharrides and result in a very dry beer unless you play with
artificial sweeteners or pasteurization.  

You could just do a sour mash and use all the cherries and hope for the best.
5-10 lbs is often recommended for a 5 gallon batch, but I've found a little 
more to be better, depending on what kind of beer you put it in.  If you put
it in a very light, subtly flavored beer, 5 might be plenty.  In a darker beer
or a beer with a stronger character, 10 might not be enough.  On advice from
the lambic digest, I used 20 lbs in a recent batch, and some sticklers were 
saying that wouldn't be enough.  I tasted it last night and it's a _lot_, but
it won't be ready to drink for at least another year, so we'll see how much
is left then.

 -Russelll  (Three L's, cuz more is better)

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:15:11 -0400
From: eamonn at chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Eamonn McKernan)
Subject: bottle conditioning lagers /RIMS

Barry Browne wants to bottle a lager that's been lagering for 8 weeks.
Now most of the yeast will have settled out, but that shouldn't mean that
it's no good, only that it's not in suspension. So when you rack to a 
priming bucket Barry, gently wipe the racking cane along the bottom layer
of yeast/trub when the carboy's almost empty. This way you'll pick up a
small amount of the sediment. You don't need alot of yeast, 
unless you're impatient for it to carbonate. but since you've been waiting
2 months already, what's a few extra days for full carbonation? This is
alot simpler that adding fresh yeast, and decreases the chance (however slight)
of infection.

***

I've re-plumbed my RIMS so that input and output to the heating chamber are
along the top, but now there's no way to empty it of liquid. In fact, there
are a couple of areas where liquid will not easily drain from the pipes after
a brew session's over. Now it's a real pain to take it all apart (the flare
fittings that would have allowed easy disassembly leaked, so now everything's
soldered). So what's a brewer to do? In fact, since I only brew once or
twice a month, what's the best way to store this baby? Copper corrodes. A good
hot water flush takes off the corrosion, but the aquarium silicone I have 
is not rated to boiling temperatures, so I'd have to limit the water 
temperature to around 180F. And extensive cleaning really adds to brewing time.
This sucker was supposed to be a labour *saver* after all...

***

Speaking of silicone, at present my thermistors are in a small metal tube, 
pushed through a small bung, covered in silicone, and pressed into one end of
a 1/2" copper T connector, and sealed again around the outside with more 
silicone. Mechanical stress eventually leads to leaks. I haven't yet brewed


copper pipe        ------------------------------------------
bung         |--------|
             |        |
tube    _________________
wires==================*      <-- thermistor bead, wires, tube(inside and out),
tube    -----------------         the holes in both ends of the bung,
	     |        |           and wherever the bung meets copper all
Bung         |--------|           smeared liberally with sealant.
copper pipe         ----------------|           |------------
                                    |           |
                                    |           |
                                    |           |
(Like Rodney Morris describes) 

with this baby, but what will i do if a leak develops halfway through?
(This is the main reason I'm testing the system so thoroughly right now).
There's gotta be a better way to do this. Preferably without using silicone.
The stuff makes me nervous for numerous reasons: no good at high temperature, 
takes a week to cure fully so can't be repaired in the middle of a brew
session, possible chemicals leeching into beer, smells terrible, poor
mechanical strength (leaked in 3 test sessions).

	Lots of questions! TIA,
	Eamonn McKernan
	eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca

"One more time: Speed does NOT kill. Speed isn't the problem; speed is the
 objective. If we weren't in a hurry, we wouldn't need freeways. We'd walk."
	-Jim Kenzie on highway speed limits

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:26:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Wet and Dry Flaming

Hey All,

I stand corrected by Pierre Jelenc:

>>Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu> says:

>> After racking to the secondary, I flame-sterilize the mouth of my
>> primary carboy by wiping it down with ethanol and setting it on fire.
>> It's not really dangerous and it can be quite thrilling.

>Note that this is not likely to do much sanitizing unless the contact time
>is quite long. In a microbiology lab there are two different flaming
>techniques: dry flaming, routinely done on such things as pipets, bottle
>mouths, inoculating loops, etc, relies on the _heat_ of the gas flame to
>sanitize or sterilize the heated area. Alcohol flaming is altogether
>different; it is designed to burn off the alcohol in which an object, such
>as a spreader, has been soaking. 

I should have technically referred to the wet-flaming technique as 
flame-sanitation.  I use the alcohol as a topical disinfectant and solvent, 
then burn it away with the flame.  I failed to mention that I also dry-flame 
the carboy neck after the wet-flaming as an extra measure of protection.  
This is not perfect sterilization, but as close as one needs to or can hope 
to get at home and in this particular application.

>The flame itself cannot be counted upon
>to heat-sterilize the object; indeed very often the object stays quite
>cool since the alcohol evaporates and burns away from the surface. 

I have to disagree here, the wet-flamed surfaces can become quite hot and can 
very easily burn the skin.  Try dipping some tweezers or a glass rod 
in ethanol, igniting the ethanol on the object, and tilting it so the 
burning ethanol runs toward your fingers (careful here...we don't want any 
more flaming body parts)---the tweezers heat up very nicely before the flames 
ever reach your hand.  You may even be inclined to drop the tweezers and cry 
out in pain.  [This stunt performed in cyberspace by professional idiots, 
please don't try this at home].  Nonetheless, dry-flaming is a more aseptic 
technique.  I use ethanol with reckless abandon in my brewery, flaming or 
not, and have had excellent results.  Decide for yourselves.  None of this, of 
course, applies to on-line flames, for which the only real protection is 
thick layers of asbestos.  ;-) Shields up, again.

tim

*=============================================================================*
| Timothy P. Laatsch             | email: laatsch at kbs.msu.edu   | Aspiring    |
| Graduate Student-Microbiology  | biz phone: 616-671-2329      | All-Grain   |
| Michigan State University/KBS  | fax:       616-671-2104      | Homebrewer  |
| Kalamazoo, MI (Home of Bell's) | obsession: American Pale Ale | & Scientist |
*=============================================================================*

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:46:05 -0400
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: Motorizing Malt Mills

Just another note on motorizing malt mills. I've been through 2 revisions of
motorizing a "Malt Mill". The power source was a 1/10th HP gearmotor with a
30 RPM output and torque rating of 113 in/lbs. The reason for this motor
selection? Easy - it was free! The 113 in/lbs seems like enough (in my seat
of the pants engineering judgement), the 30 RPM a little slow, (based on hand
cranking speed) but the price was right. The first design was mounted behind
the "Malt Mill" and driven via a 1/2" timing belt. This was OK but always had
problems with belt tension and skipping teeth (slipping) under load. I also
didn't like the idea of side loading the driven roll, my fear was the bronze
bushing would die a premature death. But it did work, (although slowly)
providing a good crush. The 2nd revision I pulled out all the stops,
remounting the mill on an elevated platform hold both the motor and mill,
allowing the collection bucket to slide in and out without lifting the mill
and motor,(as in revision 1) and replaced the belt drive with an in-line jaw
type coupling. This has been in service at my local homebrew shop for the
past 9 months with no problems. 

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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 19:24:19 -0400
From: MSMHRN01.RADAMS01 at eds.com
Subject: keg question.


Simple keg-as-kettle question:  I have picked up an old gravity tap AB half
keg, thinking that its existing "bottom valve" is already adequate as-is -
at least, for a hot liquour tank or a boiling kettle.  I haven't seen the
inside guts of the assembly yet, so can't evaluate how it might be adapted
for mash/lautering. Simple solution might be a stainless 'hinged' disc that
sits atop the valve.  I also picked up a couple quarter kegs cuz they were
there, but can't think of uses other than using them to make 5 gal size
batches (again).  Any ideas on either points?    Thanks (ia)
Rick Adamson
msmhrn01.radams01 at eds.com


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1791, 07/26/95