FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Retraction (Tim Laatsch)
  Rogue St Red (MClarke950)
  Brewing System Tips (BixMeister)
  Beer & Sweat Aug 12 (tbird)
  2nd Annual State Fair of Texas HB Competition (Ken Haycook)
  Dry Hop Impaction (Joe Pearl)
  Re: Dry Hop Impaction, Homebrewing and Septic Systems (Jim Dipalma)
  Nutrient value of beer / GT IX (uswlsrap)
  Re: brew belts (PatrickM50)
  Scientific Mashing Breakthru! ("Palmer.John")
  Czech beer "Crystal" (Jim Brittain)
  Nippers (A. Thuman)
  Killian's Irish Red (JOHN E. HARDING)
  What are Kegs made of? (DICKERSON)
  Marzen follow-up (Harralson, Kirk)
  RE: Brass, FDA vs. AOB (Dave Pike)
  Re: Dry Hop Impaction ("Stephen E. Hansen")
  Architecture Questionnaire revisited.... (DocsBrew)
  Re: Cherries, Liefmanns (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Clarification. (Russell Mast)
  old grains/all-grain (John Shearer)
  Gesundheit malt syrup (Neal Higgins)
  Irish Moss after the fact (TRoat)



******************************************************************
* POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
#################################################################
#
# YET ANOTHER NEW FEDERAL REGULATION: if you are UNSUBSCRIBING from the
# digest, please make sure you send your request to the same service
# provider that you sent your subscription request!!! I am now receiving
# many unsubscribe requests that do not match any address on my mailing
# list, and effective immediately I will be silently deleting such
# requests.
#
#################################################################
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 19:59:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Retraction

Hello Again,

As much as it pains me, I'm going to have to recant my previous post 
defending the heat generated by wet-flame sanitation with ethanol.  I 
accidentally deleted the code to take my response post out of the queue.  
Sorry for the wasted bandwidth.  Experimental results follow that will 
presumably deter the AI robot from obliterating my feable 
cyber-existence.

I took a thermometer with a range from 0 to 300 C, dipped it in ethanol, and 
set it ablaze.  I did so repeatedly, refusing to believe my results.  The 
temperature consistently reached only 65 C, certainly far below the 
threshhold for sanitation.  OTOH, when I directly dry-flamed the thermometer 
in a natural gas bunsen burner flame, the temperature increased to well over 
200 C in a matter of a few seconds.  The results are clear and 
irrefutable---wet flaming will not sanitize, dry flaming will.  I was 
wrong as wrong could be....and Pierre was right!  I'm sure glad that I also 
dry-flamed those carboy necks when yeast ranching.  Now, back to brewing...

Tim

*=============================================================================*
| Timothy P. Laatsch             | email: laatsch at kbs.msu.edu   | Aspiring    |
| Graduate Student-Microbiology  | biz phone: 616-671-2329      | All-Grain   |
| Michigan State University/KBS  | fax:       616-671-2104      | Homebrewer  |
| Kalamazoo, MI (Home of Bell's) | obsession: American Pale Ale | & Scientist |
*=============================================================================*

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:56:20 -0400
From: MClarke950 at aol.com
Subject: Rogue St Red


I have a friend who wants to make a ST. Rogue Red.  But I'm not sure of 
the ingrediants, here's my guess:

8#	American 2 row malt
1/4#	Crystal malt 
2-4 oz	Roasted Barley

Standard Infusion mash, 60-90 minutes  at  153F

Hops, I was thinking Cascades, it had a real 'citrusy' smell to it.
I think probably 3 additions.

2? oz 	 at 60 min before end of boil(EOB)
1 oz 	 at 15 min before EOB 
1 oz 	dry hop in the secondary for 2 weeks

No water treatments.

How about Wyeast 1056 American Ale as the yeast? There's a Advanced
Brewers  Scientific (ABS) ABS001 Northwest Microbrewery Ale yeast, but
I've never used it and don't know if it's appropriate.  (BTW Thanks Jeff,
I just got the catalog.) 

Does anyone have a better handle on this beer?  


Cheers,

Mike	
MClarke950 at aol.com
Seattle, WA 	
 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:00:21 -0400
From: BixMeister at aol.com
Subject: Brewing System Tips

I was very impressed with the answers to my inquiry regarding preparation of
agar plates.  HBD is a great information resource!  

I have a new query rather a couple of queries.  First for those
do-it-yourselfers-how do you construct a liquid level sight tube.  I have
some rough ideas, but need more data.  Secondly I want to construct a
stainless steel false bottom with enough permeability to be suitable for a
rim system using a pump.  Answers can be sent to HBD and or directed to me
personally. BixMeister(Horace A. Bixby) BixMeist at aol.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 01:38 EDT
From: tbird at iglou.com
Subject: Beer & Sweat Aug 12

O.K. Folks, you just barely have time to get a batch of kegged homebrew 
together for this years' Beer & Sweat; so clean out your kegging system and 
work on your best homebrew recipes, because it's time for the 1995 
Beer & Sweat.

  What is Beer & Sweat you may ask? 
Well, Beer & Sweat is THE summer party of, by, and for homebrewers. The 7th 
annual Beer & Sweat is sponsored by the Bloatarian Brewing League of 
Cincinnati, it is one of the largest gatherings of homebrewers on the 
planet, and of interest to all homebrewers within driving distance of 
Greater Cincinnati.  Beer & Sweat is unique in that it is 100 % homebrew 
oriented. Unlike the usual gatherings of brewers, where people 
keep opening a cooler and pulling out another example of a favorite 
commercial beer, we stress the homebrewer's craft exclusively. 
Beer & Sweat is also devoted to DRAFT homebrew. For example last year we 
had 50 kegs of top quality homebrew on hand, most containing 5 gallons each.
There were also a few 10 gallon kegs, a few mini kegs, and a party pig. 
But with over 150 homebrewers in attendance, we still had a quantity of beer
sufficient to provide the expected quantity of sweat. 

  When does Beer & Sweat take place? 
Saturday, August 12, 1995, beginning at 5:00 pm, and running till the wee 
hours. Setup will be between 3:00 and 5:00. 
(Sorry, Friday Night people backed out on me, but a few bloats will 
hanging around the pool Friday nite, but I'm getting together a road trip 
to the area brewpubs Sat. before 5:00).

  Where does Beer & Sweat take place?
At the Drawbridge Estate ( home of the Oldenberg microbrewery). 
We currently have a block of 40 rooms reserved poolside in the Garrison 
building (and we can get more), so we will have a private location. 
Drawbridge is a mere five miles south of downtown Cincinnati, in 
Ft Mitchell, Kentucky. Take the Buttermilk Pike exit from Interstate 71/75 
and go east one block.

  How much will this cost me ?
Nothing. Apart from your meals and lodging, Beer & Sweat is absolutely free.
Their is no admission fee of any kind, except the entry fee if you wish to 
enter a keg in the competition ( $5.00 first keg $1.00 each additional keg ).
The absolutely astounding variety of top quality, fresh, draft homebrew you
will be able to sample at no cost or obligation is guaranteed to boggle your 
mind. The Bloatarians like to have their friends over for a good time. 
Room rates at the Drawbridge are $55 a night for Beer & Sweat, which is 
almost 25% less then the normal room rate. Call 1-800-354-9793 for 
reservations. You must mention Beer & Sweat to get this room rate (tell them
 to put you poolside in the garrison building). Check-in time is 3:00 pm. 
We highly recommend you get a room for the night, either at Drawbridge or 
one of the nearby motels, past Beer & Sweats have gone very late and we 
don't want anyone who feels even slightly intoxicated to drive.

   How do I get an Invitation to Beer & Sweat?
Beer & Sweat has grown to the point where we no longer feel comfortable 
mingling with the general public. But since you're a home brewer, you're 
invited. All we ask is that you bring your homebrew to share. As stated 
earlier, we have secured practically the exclusive use of the Garrison 
building at the Drawbridge. Slightly separated  from the main complex, 
Garrison has an outdoor pool, tennis courts, and recreation area. There are
plenty of ice machines and vending machines. Right next door to the 
Oldenberg brewery, and within a 5 minute walk of numerous fast food places.

  Beer & Sweat Special Competition:
We encourage entries to the Beer & Sweat Open Draft Homebrew Competition. 
Beer & Sweat is the first and possibly still the only AHA sanctioned 
KEG ONLY competition. For a $5.00 entry fee (only $ 1.00 for each additional
keg) you can enter a keg (no bottles) of ANY style beer, Get it set up 
(bring your own CO2, etc.) between 3 and 5 pm, pay your registration fee 
during setup, and be prepared to tap your keg yourself for the judges. 
Judging will take place at 5:00 pm. After the formal judging of registered 
entries, ALL kegs present will be eligible for the popular vote competition,
and a prize will be awarded to the crowd favorite (nice trophy & mug !!).

  Tell them what they can win Bob.
Actually it would be Robert. Robert Pinkerton has done a great job this 
year of  hunting and gathering of prizes (plus a lot of out-right begging). 
The list of prizes is too long to list here but, Robert has succeeded in 
filling his office full of beer related prizes and can no longer find his 
desk. A final and complete listing of prizes will be available in the 
Official Beer & Sweat program, and donors will be thanked thru-out the 
year in our newsletter. But as a small thank-you the first 50 entries will 
receive a Sam Adams painters' hat and t-shirt. Each category winner will 
receive an award and prize. And this year's Best of Show winner will receive 
the first annual Marty Vinnings Cup (it looks GREAT !!!) and even a bigger 
prize.

So get going and start working on your best homebrew recipes and I'll see 
you at The Drawbridge Estate August 12th for the 1995 Beer & Sweat. 
TTFN
TBird
Organizer 1995 Beer & Sweat    
Only AHA SCP All-Keg Contest
Cincinnati Bloatarian Brewing League
Aug. 12  Ft Mitchell, Ky. (Oldenberg/Drawbridge) 
tbird at iglou.com   ci$: 71674,3330
Web Page  http://www.iglou.com/members/tbird.html
(needs updating...sorry!)

P.S. We're still looking for prizes.... it's never to late to beg, or 
donate. So don't be left out of having your prize in THE kegging contest 
of the year.

P.S.S. If you can't bring a keg or two, your more then welcome to bring 
your best homebrew in bottles. 
(sorry no prizes for bottles, just big grins.) 

P.P.S.S. Judges Always Welcome .... We can use more.... full points awarded
for ANY program.... just give me a call or email



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 07:30:56 CDT
From: khaycook at ns1.unicomp.net (Ken Haycook)
Subject: 2nd Annual State Fair of Texas HB Competition

Announcing the 1995 State Fair of Texas Homebrew and Texas Championship
Homebrew Competition. 

Entrant information can be obtained by email or snailmail by contacting me at

khaycook at unicomp.net 

Ken Haycook
NTHBA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 09:11:05 -0400
From: Joe Pearl <joep at informix.com>
Subject: Dry Hop Impaction

<snip>

 Stan> Is there a good way to dry hop in a keg or should it go in the
 Stan> secondary?  Thanks for any experience and advise.  Stan Gregory
 Stan> Jacksonville, NC cn1428 at coastalnet.com

Definitely dry hop in the secondary!!!

joe.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Joe Pearl                              Sr. Sales Engineer
Informix Software                      Direct Voice:  813-615-0616
8675 Hidden River Parkway              Fax:           813-632-9582
Tampa, FL  33637                       Email:    joep at informix.com
(NeXTMail welcome)

Non illegimati carborundum!

PGP'd email preferred - for key: send me email w/subject "send me pgp key"
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 10:08:03 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: Dry Hop Impaction, Homebrewing and Septic Systems



Hi All,

  In HBD#1791, Stan Gregory asks:

>Is there a good way to dry hop in a keg or should it go in the secondary?

  I've gotten great results dryhopping in a Corny keg. I use whole leaf or
a plug, and put the hops in a sanitized nylon hop bag. I sanitize the bag
with a 5 minute boil, and if using a plug, cut it into a half dozen pieces.
Seems to help the plug break up into cones.

  Don't bother putting anything in the bag to weigh it down. A couple of
people I know who did this had problems, once the bag sank and got involved
with the pickup tube. Both of them had to open up the keg and fish the
bag out with a coat hanger. I've read that the oils in hops that contribute
aroma are soluble - you don't need to submerge the hops, just get them
wet.

  Since the keg is sealed, the aromatics can't be scrubbed out by escaping
CO2. I get a *lot* of hop aroma from just 1/2 ounce. I suggest starting
with this amount, then make adjustments according to your taste.

*********************************************************************

  Also in HBD#1791, Jim Grady writes:

>He went on
>the say that his friend who owns a local sewer & drain company told him
>(this is getting to be gossip at this point!) of a customer who was a
>homebrewer and his septic system was in very good condition

  I had mine pumped last fall, 3 years since the last time. The guy who
did the work remarked that it was one of the "cleanest" systems (I guess
this was a relative term, huh? :-)) he had ever seen, almost no solid
waste at all. He asked me what I was dumping in there that was keeping
it so healthy. Just a quart or so of yeast slurry a couple times a 
month, and the occasional few gallons of BBrite.
  I mention this because of the "will I screw up my septic system if I
dump santizer/yeast" posts that appear periodically. After 8 years of
homebrewing, mine is doing just fine.

*********************************************************************

  A few digests back, Dion Hollenbeck posted that he aerates with pure
O2, without filtering. I have heard that micro-organisms cannot survive
in a pure 02 environmnt.
  I have an aquarium pump aeration system which works well enough, but
handling the inline filter and trying to keep it sterile is a real PITA.
I'm very interested in Dion's procedure, alas, he's off the air at the
moment due to a job change.
  Is anyone else doing this??? I'd like to hear all the gory details,
prices and sources for O2 tanks, how long do you oxygenize (is that a
word?) at what pressure, how many batches per tank, etc.

           TIA,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:16:01 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Nutrient value of beer / GT IX                                   

                                                                               
NUTRIENTS IN BEER:                                                             
                                                                               
A FOOD section column in today's _Milwaukee Journal-Lite_ had a Q&A on         
the food value of beer. The question was: 'so-and-so told me that beer         
has a lot of vitamin B, but I thought it was all empty calories.' The          
columnist replied that there's more vitamin B in a bag of M&Ms and that        
beer is indeed empty calories. (She was a little less harsh toward wine,       
but not much) Now I can see that for an industrial corn or rice swill          
and for filtered beers, but a bottle-conditioned beer will indeed have a       
fair amount of Vitamin B, and an all-malt beer (and with a higher              
terminal gravity than corn/rice swill) will have some proteins from the        
grain. There's certainly more nutrition in a pint of beer than in a can        
of soda, a beverage that doesn't get all the bad press as beer. (And           
soda doesn't have the beneficial effects on the heart, either.)                
                                                                               
I'd like to reply to that columnist and set her and the readers                
straight. Obviously, "beer" represents a wide range of beverages, but          
does anyone have some hard figures on the types and amounts of nutrients       
in a beer, be it a pale ale or a stout or whatever. What kinds of data         
did Bert Grant try to put on his labels? Serious and INFORMED replies          
only, please; be able to document your information--it would be worse          
for beer lovers to be shown misstating the truth than to have said             
nothing at all.                                                                
                                                                               
AS LONG AS I'M WRITING.... Please note that the Madison Homebrewers and        
Tasters Guild's Ninth Annual GREAT TASTE OF THE MIDWEST<tm> is sold out        
(has been since early June); tickets for next year's tenth anniversary         
extravaganza go on sale 1 May 1996. We still get a few inquiries even in       
July. Part of the problem may be that many club newsletter calendars           
print events for only the next month. By the time an August event hits a       
newsletter's cycle, it's far too late for anyone to get tickets. Please        
pass the word on to your club's newsletter editors--you may want to list       
the event in the May calendar next year to coincide with the ticket            
sales. That way, you have fewer disappointed people; if they don't heed        
the advice to buy early, they have only themselves to blame.                   
                                                                               
For those of you who already have your tickets, get psyched! In just           
over two weeks, you'll be sampling the Midwest's finest 200-or-so beers        
from just over 50 craft brewers...and at a reasonable price and without        
those silly and annoying beer tokens :-)                                       
                                                                               
Now go have a beer,                                                            
                                                                               
Bob Paolino    uswlsrap at ibmmail.com                                            
Madison                                                                        

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:31:26 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: brew belts

In a message dated 95-07-26 03:57:20 EDT, Kenn (with 2 n's) writes:

>I am wondering if anyone has input on how to 
>brew in the heat -- how to get around it, etc.  I don't have an extra 
>refrigerator for lagering.  I have heard of those belts that can be 
>wrapped around fermenters to keep them at a steady 78 degrees (anybody 
>have any results on these buggers?).  

I think the belt you refer to is a "heating" belt, not a cooling belt, so I
don't think it is a solution in your case.  I have one that I used in the
second batch of beer that I made many, many years ago.  So far it remains the
only batch I had to actually throw out!
78 degrees is a pretty high fermentation temp and, I believe, contributed to
a horrendous number of off/yucky flavors in that forgettable brew.  The belt
was part of a single stage "Complete Beer Kit" that was made in Canada and
included a large 7 gal. plastic fermentor with a lever action faucet that I
still use.  But I don't use the belt!   YMMV, of course.  You might try the
"evaporative-cooling-T-shirt-covered-fermentor-in-a-bucket-of-water"
technique that has been discussed many times on the HBD.  

Pat Maloney

Return to table of contents


Date: 26 Jul 1995 07:32:18 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Scientific Mashing Breakthru!

Well, Not really.
But I did find out something that should be very helpful to many of you.

I have been asking a few eminent homebrewers how much grain can be mashed in a
fixed volume Cooler ex. a 5 gallon Gott. The answers have been helpful, but 
anecdotal, i.e. "I did X lbs for this batch". 

So, last night on the way home from work, I had a brainstorm. Why not mash 1 lb
in 1 quart and see what the volume is?!

Well, I did. I carefully weighed 1 lb of Great Western 2 Row malt, crushed it
in my Maltmill and added it to 1 quart of 120F water. I let this sit for about
5 minutes. Since I only have a 1 quart pyrex measuring cup, I poured 24 oz of
mash into the measuring cup and discarded it. I then poured in the remainder
and measured it. It came to about 18 oz. 

It occured to me that because the first measurement was more fluid, and the
second pretty stiff, I might be experiencing compaction, and not getting a good
measurement. So, I measured out 2 more cups of hot water (16oz) and added it to
the 2nd measure of mash in the quart measuring cup. If I had been paying better
attention, I would have only added 1 cup. The liquid level rose to just over
the 32 oz mark. 

Comparing the two measurements, I determined that the addition of 16 oz of
water to the 18oz looked to be a change in volume of 16 oz, meaning that I had
negligible compaction. 

So! We now have a brewing constant for figuring how much grain can be mashed in
a fixed volume. 1 Pound of 2 Row Malt mixed with 1 Quart of Water produces a
volume of 42 fluid ounces. If you are figuring a 1.5 quart per pound mash, then
add in the additional half quart per pound as my measurements show that 1 quart
per pound is already a saturated condition.

In summary, 10 lbs of Malt at 1.5 qt/lb would fill just over 4.5 gallons, which
would be do-able in a 5 gallon cooler. This would yield a 1.060 beer.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:45:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Brittain <BRITTAIN at PCSA01.BARRY.EDU>
Subject: Czech beer "Crystal"


Does anyone have a recipe for a clone of the Czech beer "Crystal?" 

I have looked in the cat's meow w/ no luck.

Private e-mail pls to brittain at pcsa01.barry.edu

TIA

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:46:59 -0500 (EDT)
From: andy at hydroqual.com (A. Thuman)
Subject: Nippers


I recently came into the possession of some rolling rock 8oz beer bottles
(nips, at least what we called them in high school).  I was thinking of
bottling my next batch in them (I don't look forward to cleaning and
capping them all, but the idea of homebrew nips sounds fun).  My question
to the HBD collective is:

1.  is priming the same (3/4 cup corn sugar/5 gal) - I assume so,
2.  are there any worries about creating bombs with the smaller bottles or 
    am I just over analyzing the situation and the same amount of internal
    force due to the carbonation is the same regardless of bottle size 
    (equal head space).

TIA, any actual experiences would also be interesting.  Oh yeah, I almost
forgot, they are green bottles.  BTW, are green or brown bottles better, :)
had to get that in there.

 - LONG TIME LURKER, FIRST TIME POSTER

Take it easy,
Andy Thuman - andy at hydroqual.com (only office email at the present moment)
Rumson, NJ (yeah Bruce lives here, haven't seen him yet so I can't vouch
            for this yet)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:53:11 -0700 (MST)
From: jharding at aztec.asu.edu (JOHN E. HARDING)
Subject: Killian's Irish Red


I am wondering if anyone has a receipe for George Killian's
Irish Red.  I have checked out The Cat's Meow and found
a couple of close ones.  Can anyone lend a hand?

Regards,
John

- --
John Harding
E-Mail Address: jharding at aztec.asu.edu
Sysop - U-FO INFO BBS (GTPN Net/Node 009/005)
Phoenix, AZ (602) 306-1345 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 8:59:40 -0700 (MST)
From: DICKERSON at ECC7.ATENG.AZ.HONEYWELL.COM
Subject: What are Kegs made of?


I recently acquired a half-barrel keg that has handles on
top but does not appear to be stainless steel.  I think it
is a Coors keg.  I tried to see if a magnet would stick and 
it would not.   I've talked with other brew folk and the 
consensus is the keg is aluminum.

Does anyone have any idea what I have?  One member of
my brew club insists that even though the outside is not
stainless steel, the inside must be.  Concurrence/rebuttal?

And if I can't use it for a mash tun/brew kettle, what does
one do with an undocumented empty keg?

TIA
Jack D.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 12:24:30 EST
From: kwh at roadnet.ups.com (Harralson, Kirk)
Subject: Marzen follow-up

     Last week, I posted a request for information on Marzens, particularly 
     DeGroen Marzen produced by the Baltimore Brewing Company.  I had only 
     one reply, but it was extremely informative.
     
     These are exerpts from information sent to me from Robert Chizmadia:
     
     >The yeast is definitely the Weinstephan 07 lager yeast, which is the 
     >same as Wyeast's  #1007.  All his malts are Gambrinus (yes, North 
     >American) two row.  I'm not sure of the percentages of the grain, but 
     >it is a mixture of Munich, crystal and lager malt.  Finishing hops 
     >are most likely Saaz, and bittering hops are problably Cluster.  
     >These are what he uses on most of his beers. If you went to the GABF 
     >last year, he gave pretty good descriptions of what malts and what 
     >hops were used for some of his beers in the program.
          <snip>
     >It's a step infusion mash, have no idea on the temps.
          <snip>
     >He ferments I think around 54 and I think around 10 days.  He then 
     >transfers to the lagering room (take the tour, it's a great brewery) 
     >for around 4 to 6 weeks.
     
     I was surprised by both the use of American 2-row and Cluster 
     bittering hops.  Does this fit into the traditional Marzen category?  
     If not, is there a better category to classify it in?  I certainly 
     plan on making a batch, whatever it may be.  Comments?

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:21:17 -0700
From: Dave Pike <davep at cirrus.com>
Subject: RE: Brass, FDA vs. AOB


Dion Wrote:
>OK, John, so how do you react to the blurb in BT about the FDA
>"outlawing" brass in contact with food pH < 7 ?  (page 12, v3n4).   Is
>this just another one of the FDAs, "Well, we're not sure so we'll just
>disallow it" cover their ass schemes??

Then John wrote:

<snip>
> If you were to whip beer full of
>air, then it would dissolve copper. (Matter of fact, if you were to oxygenate
>your wort in a copper vessel, you would dissolve a lot more than normal beer
>would.) The same holds true for other acidic foods. Beer that has not been
>aerated or beer that is post fermentation carbonated will not significantly
>corrode copper (no oxygen).

What about the big boys(most notably Anchor) with copper brewhouses, that areate
after lautering and before boiling? What do they do do avoid copper 
loss and more importantly, copper in their beer?

Dave Pike




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:10:31 -0700
From: "Stephen E. Hansen" <hansen at hops.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dry Hop Impaction 

In HBD 1971 Stan Gregory <cn1428 at coastalnet.com> wrote that when he
dry hopped by adding a plug of EKG to his keg he ran into problems
with some of the cones sinking to the bottom and clogging up the
outflow tube.  I dry hop most all of my ales and find that if you
stuff the hops (whole or plug) in a mesh bag first you can avoid
these kinds of problems.  I've also tried it with and without weights
to keep the hops from floating on top and didn't detect any difference.

Happy hopping,
Stephen Hansen


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Stephen Hansen, homebrewer   | The church is near, but the road is icy.
 Stanford University          | The bar is far away, but I will walk carefully.
 hansen at Hops.Stanford.EDU     |     -- Russian Proverb
 http://www.stanford.edu/~hansen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:12:38 -0400
From: DocsBrew at aol.com
Subject: Architecture Questionnaire revisited....

Dear James,

Thank you for your posting of July 26.  I think you have made your position
even more clear.  I apologize for the paranoid portion of the hbd collective
who feel they must flame everyone for every reason - the fact is that you
should expect flames every time you post anything.  

Nevertheless, good luck with your thesis.

Shields Up!

Doc.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cherries, Liefmanns

Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> writes:
> > From: Nick Hiams <oleum at spuddy.mew.co.uk>
>
> > PS does anyone know what to to with between 5 and 10 lb of dark very ripe
> > cherries. I can't eat any more [I must've eaten about 10 lb already in the
> > last week...and my wife ...and my kids...and everyone at work]. I thought
> > of steeping them in brandy to make cherry brandy something like sloes and
> > gin but I'd rather make a cherry beer. Anyone have a recipe for Liefmanns
> > Kriek? This is gorgeous.
>
> You could try the lambic digest.  They consider Liefmanns a bit too sweet
> (and Lindemann's downright syrupy).  If you're going to go for the rest of
> the lambic character, you'll need some Brettanomyces, which is going to

I was going to answer Nick, but the answer is not what most people want
to hear: no one knows how to make Liefmanns.  Although Liefmanns is NOT
a lambic, the lambic digest is a good place to discuss efforts at its
emulation.  Liefmanns is an oud bruin/old brown/sour brown/Flanders brown.
As with most Belgian styles, the yeast and fermentation are more important,
or at least harder to figure out, than the "recipe."

Head Start Brewing cultures has a couple of cultures that are meant
to be from this type of beer.

Here is the BURP Labs info on this beer:
*****************************************************
Brewing Belgian Beers (#4): Oud Bruins
Description: 

1.045-1.060, 4.8-6% ABV, 15-25 IBU, 10-20 SRM Red, deep copper or deep
brown with red tints. Acidic aroma with some fruitiness. Flavor sweet,
sour and fruity, esp. cherry-like. Lactic and acetic flavors
ok. Attenuation low to medium. Medium carbonation, body medium to
full. Addition of raspberries or cherries ok, should blend with other
flavors, may provide additional acidity. Low bitterness, no hop flavor
or aroma. No diacetyl.

Most commercial examples are richly colored with a fruity, acidic
aroma and an intensely fruity, sweet and sour palate. Sourness varies
in commercial examples, many of which are filtered and sweetened. Can
become wine-like with age. Many commercial examples include a
secondary fermentation on raspberries or sour cherri es, and the
flavors this contributes should be clear and should balance with the
existing acidity and sweetness.

Brewing method
Homebrewers have yet to master this style. It appears that basic
grists include pilsner malt, caramel malts, sometimes Vienna or
Munich, and sometimes roasted malts in very small quantities for
coloring. In some cases the deep color is achieved by long
boils. Lactic and acetic bacteria provide the necessary acidity, an d
these may need a long time to achieve the proper acidity. Additions of
lactic acid to finished beer may work. When used, fruit should be
added to the secondar y at 1-2 lbs per gallon of beer. Any cherries
used should be sour! Carbonation is relatively standard, so 3/4 to 7/8
of a cup of sugar should be used to prime a 5 gallon batch. 

Extract brewers should start with pale extract and use lots of caramel
malts. Try to pick a yeast that's not going to attenuate too much.
Keep in mind that you're experimenting. However, if you're the first
to brew a really good one of these, you will earn a substantial laurel
wreath, and perhaps the Homebrew Nobel Prize.

Common problems
1. Inadequate acidity. Add lactobacillus culture, ferment longer, or
add lactic acid.

2. Fruit flavors thin or inappropriate. Increase quantity of fruit, or
use sour fruit instead of pie cherries!

3. Too light in color. Increase use of caramel malts and/or boil time. 

Commercial examples
Goudenband (5.1% ABV), Rodenbach Grand Cru (6.5% ABV), Liefmans
Framboise (5.7% ABV), Liefmans Kriek

Sample recipe
Bill Ridgely's Framboise (partial mash recipe for 5 gallons)
RIDGELY at A1.CBER.FDA.GOV
3.3 lbs   American Classic Light liquid extract
2.0 lbs   Pale dry extract
1.0 lb    Pale ale malt
0.5 lb    Munich malt
0.5 lb    80L crystal
0.5 lb    Wheat malt
0.5 lb    dextrin malt

1.0 oz    Hallertau (4.2%) boiled for 60 minutes
1.0 oz    Saaz (3.2%) boild for 45 minutes

6.0 lbs   Tart red raspberries

Fermented with Wyeast Belgian yeast

OG: 1.062 FG: 1.015 
Used step mash for grains--120 degrees for 30 minutes (protein rest),
150 degrees for 60 minutes (saccrification rest). Gypsum was added to
adjust the mash pH.  Total boil time 1.5 hours. Raspberries were
crushed and added to the brewpot at the end of the boil, then steeped
for 15 minutes before wort chilling. The raspb erries were left in the
primary for 7 days, then strained during transfer of wort to the
secondary. Total fermentation time: 24 days. Fermentation temperature:
62F.

Recommended All-Grain variation (using Belgian malts at 27 points/lb): 

9.0 lbs   pale ale malt
1.0 lb    aromatic malt
1.0 lb    wheat malt
0.5 lb    caramunich
0.5 lb    Special B
All other ingredients and procedures remain the same. 

[Phil's note: This recipe was the closest to the real thing I've
tasted, with one exception: it lacked the necessary sourness, although
some was supplied by the raspberries. Nevertheless this recipe with an
additional acid component or lactic fermentation seems like an
excellent starting point for experimentation]
*******************End BURP labs info*****************

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:10:51 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Clarification.


> From: Russel Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
> Subject: Cherries.

> You could try the lambic digest.  They consider Liefmanns a bit too sweet 

You fool!  (Or should that be "me fool"?)  Liefmanns isn't a LAMBIC it's a
Flanders Brown Ale.  Of course, Liefmanns kriek has a few things in common
with many kriek lambics.  1 - it's delicious.  2 - it's made with cherries.
3 - it's belgian  4 - if you really want to clone it right, you should think
"brettanomyces"  5 - it's delicious  6 - Lambic Digest is an appropriate place
to discuss them  7 - so's this.

Use all your cherries in a 3.5 gallon batch.

 -bRussell 

ps.  Special hanks to Spencer Thomas.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:45:16 -0400
From: jds at equinox.shaysnet.com (John Shearer)
Subject: old grains/all-grain

Greetings all!

First, I posted some time ago asking about using grains that have been
cracked and have been sitting around a while.  Well, here's the poop:
several people responded, all saying about the same thing.  If you have
cracked grains and don't intend to use them right away, be sensible - treat
them like bread (cool, dark, and airtight - what about freezing? (my own
opinion)).  Many people used grain that has been sitting around for as long
as a month with the following to say -"It's not the good flavors that the
grain loses, but the bad flavors that develop".  So, my suggestion of using
more grains only holds partially true - you may help the malt flavor and
gravity, but the off flavors will still be there.  (BTW, one guy said he
noticed a 5% drop in lautering efficiency with his old grains with the same
equipment)  So, in conclusion - (as one responder said) If you are looking
for a Best of Show, don't even use your week old grain.  If you are looking
for cheap and drinkable, your year old grain should be fine.

I do have another question on this:  No one seemed to know what actually
happens to the grain as it ages.  Do any of you Grain Gurus know?

*****************************************************************

I brewed my first all grain batch this weekend!  Yippeee!  I thought I'd
pass along the stats (I thought they were quite good).  The batch was five
gallons of pale ale.

50 min mash (iodine test showed conversion  at  45min)
30 min sparge (had trouble regulating the flow)
60 min boil
electric stove
copper manifold in lauter-tun 
immersion cooler

I had the grains cracked at my local HB shop, and my starter was made two
days before brewing.

Total time including cleanup - 4 hours!  Efficency - 82%, 29 ppg.  (Checked
just before pitching)

Am I lucky that things went so well?  From what I've heard, most people take
a much longer time with less efficiency.  (Sorry if I'm tooting my own horn,
but I didn't think all grain would be so easy :-)  I'll let you know in two
weeks how it turned out!

By the way - Thanks to everyone who responds to the questions posted here
(mine and others).  They make my brewing life much easier!

Yours in brewing,
john


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neal Higgins <higgins at uofport.edu>
Subject: Gesundheit malt syrup

Any home brew history buffs out there?  I am interested in finding 
information on "Gesundheit" malt syrup distributed by Victor Neustadtl 
during Prohibition. "Gesundheit"  was one of the largest selling malt 
syrups and it was marketed nation wide.   He gave away a variety of 
premiums to promote the product and I would like to locate a poster.  
Any information would be appreciated.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:27:56 -0400
From: TRoat at aol.com
Subject: Irish Moss after the fact

Ooops....go running for the collective.  I brewed a batch of Old Ale (Thanks
GlynnB9776).  However, I forgot to add Irish Moss at the end of the boil.  Is
there any other time after being placed in the primary that irish moss can be
added to the beer and have the intended effect?  Or is the boiling of the
beer the important action required for IM to do its thing....a one time
opportunity only?  Thanks.
Todd

Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1792, 07/27/95