FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Wort Aeration (Dunstan_Vavasour)
  Fruit beer and my .02 on PET (Robert.Fike)
  Re: California Lager Yeast (Jim Dipalma)
  Temp. Controllers Part II ("J. Pat Martinez" )
  Purging bottle prior to CP fill (Kinney Baughman)
  Airstones/H2O2/Bottle Fill Pressure (Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies)
  More on CPBF (Jim Busch)
  Re: Brewer's Gold (Jeff Frane)
  RE: Hold the Sparge/CPBF on the cheap/Aeration, chilling (Brian Pickerill)
  Re: Why sparge? (Mark Thompson)
  Stirring w/ chiller, bottle caps (Neal Christensen)
  Not as cheap, but more effective cheap true CPBF... (pbabcock)
  Keep your food cold! ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  Beer and Brewing in Israel (Martin Wilde)
  Things that smell and things that don't (harry)
  Heat Exchanging. (DocsBrew)
  stirring the chill (Steve Peters)
  CPBF/24 hr brew sessionstoring sparge) (Robert Brown)
  Caramel flavor (Dave Fletcher)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 10:45:52 BST
From: Dunstan_Vavasour at cegelecproj.co.uk (Dunstan_Vavasour)
Subject: Wort Aeration

I've only recently resumed brewing after a gap of several
years, with only one batch since restarting (currently maturing in
cask). I boiled all my water before brewing with it (too much
chlorine), so there was no dissolved air.

To aerate I simply cooled the wort (stood it in cold water in the
sink) and took the hand blender to it (after sterilising the
blades). The krausen was well formed within twelve hours, so I don't
see the need to bother with all these gadgets when there is an
extremely effective aeration device already in most people's kitchens.

Or did I miss something ?

Dunstan

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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 08:46:48 EST
From: Robert.Fike at ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Fruit beer and my .02 on PET

     A while ago I asked for some info on making fruit beers.  From the 
     replies I received (thanks Joe, Jeff, and Vance), and the reading 
     suggested, I brewed a raspberry wheat.  In short the suggestions were 
     don't boil the fruit (however you can add the fruit at the end of the 
     boil then turn off the heat) but freeze the fruit instead.  This 
     seemed to work well.  Here is what I did:
     
     Two 3.3lb cans M&F Wheat extract
     1 OZ Hallertau Hersbrucker boiling hop
     1 OZ "    "       "   "    Dry Hopping
     48 OZ frozen Raspberries added to primary
     
     Total of 6 gallons in fermenter
     
     I don't have a SG reading because my H-meter was in not one but two 
     pieces!
     
     
     On PET bottles:
     
     I use them on occasion.  The occasions are pool parties, beaches and 
     other places where glass isn't welcome.  As long as I don't plan on 
     keeping the beer longer than 2-3 months, I've been OK.  I opened one 
     that was wedged in the back of my fridge (aged 1 year) and it was 
     FLAT!  So yes Virginia, PET bottles are gas permeable
     
     Next spring/summer, if you know about a beach trip or pool party going 
     on in about 2 months, put some homebrew in the old coke bottle.  Just 
     don't keep it long.
     
     
     Now it is time for Cherry Wheat!
     
     Rob
       


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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 10:06:38 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: California Lager Yeast



Hi All,

  In HBD#1798, Scott C. Gruber writes:

>Wyeast
>2112 is supposed to work best at 58-68 degrees. Is the usual room
>temperature of my place (about 75 or so) going to ruin my beer?

  Here's the info I have from the Wyeast spec sheet:

WYeast 2112 California Lager Yeast
Warm fermenting bottom cropping strain, ferments well to
62 deg. F
^^^^^^^^^

  The way I interpret this is that the yeast works well *up to* 62F, i.e.,
62F is the *maximum* temperature at which this yeast should be used.

  In HBD#1799, Steve Dragon replies:

>I made an 11 gal. batch on Memorial Day and fermented it in high 60s-low 70s
>using Wyeast California Lager. 

>but at bottling a week after that where temps were consistently in
>the low 70s, I tasted a slight smokiness. A month later still there, but
>stronger. I have determined that it is not my RIM system burning the wort,
>but actually phenols from the yeast (probably due to autolization)! It takes
>a half bottle of thinking about rauche bier before the taste buds get used to
>this one!

  I've brewed ~25 batches with this yeast over the past three years or
so, and have done some experiments with different fermentation temperatures.
At 55F, the phenolic flavor that's the earmark of this style is fairly
subdued. Since the 2112 is a lager yeast, I'd expect it to ferment fairly
cleanly at this temperature. At 62F, the phenolic was very pronounced, it
dominated the flavor of the beer, nearly masked the hops entirely, despite
a target of 38 IBUs!!
  I've found that 58F is really the optimal temperature for this yeast. The
phenolic is distinct, but balanced against the malt and the hops.

  Steve continues:

>I would say it will ruin your beer. Stick to ales in this heat!

  Sorry Scott, but I have to go along with Steve on this one. Fermented at 75F,
I think you're going to find that the beer will have a harsh, phenolic
character.
  Clearly, this yeast is very temperature sensitive, a 7F swing makes a *huge*
difference in the level of phenolics produced. If a fermentation environment
where temperatures are held in the high 50Fs-low 60Fs can't be provided, then
brew ales with a yeast that can take the heat.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:43:23 -0500
From: "J. Pat Martinez" <martinez at puccini.crl.umn.edu>
Subject: Temp. Controllers Part II

Listed below is some info about the Honeywell Temp control unit:

Model#:  T6031 A 1029
Temp. range:  -30 to 90 F
Differential:  3.5 to 16 F
Temp Sensing unit:  Copper capillary sensor with 8 ft of copper wire
Cost: $30-35

Additional info:

 -  Control unit can be mounted inside or outside of the fridge or freezer.

 -  Control unit has three screw terminals (Red, White, and Black) to 
hook wires to.  I only used the Red and the White terminals.

 -  I called Honeywell (located in Minnesota) to find out who carried this 
particular Temp. control unit in my area (St. Paul/Minneapolis).  I bought 
mine at a plumbing/heating supplies wholesaler.

_  My recollection of how I installed the Honeywell temp controller in my 
fridge is rather vague, but it may be of some help.   I got the courage to
attempt to install a temp controller because my local appliance repair man 
told me that it wouldn't be that difficult.  With that in mind, I sort of 
winged it because he didn't offer me any useful wiring pointers.  First, I 
took apart the original refridgerator temp. control device and sorted thru 
the wires and found a pair ofred wires (hot?) running to one terminal and 
a pair of black wires (ground?) running to a second terminal of the 
origninal temp. control unit.  Using wire connectors and such, I connected 
the hot wires to the red terminal and the ground wires to the white terminal 
of the new Honeywell unit.  Finally, I took a swig of homebrew, crossed my
fingers, and gingerly plugged in the fridge.  To my amazement the damn 
thing worked!  It's great; I can now use my beer fridge for brewing ales or
lagers or for keeping my kegs cold.  Of course, I can't gaurantee that 
your fridge will be as easy to wire as mine.

Below is info about the Johnson Controls Temp control unit:

Model#:  A319ABC-24-01
Temp. range:  -20 to 100 F
Differential:  1 to 30 F
Cost: $30-35
Temp Sensor:  solid-state sensor

Additional info:

 -  Control unit can be mounted inside or outside of the fridge or freezer.

 -  I have never used this control unit, and I can't remember where I heard 
about it.  Anyhow I figure you could find this unit at the same place you 
would find the Honeywell unit.  One could also contact Johnson Controls 
for more information about where to purchase this temp. controller.

Pat M.


%  J. Pat Martinez                     %  martinez at puccini.CRL.umn.edu
%  Univ. of Minnesota                  %  Phone:  (612) 625-2221
%  Dept. of Plant Pathology            %  Fax:  (612) 625-9728


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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Purging bottle prior to CP fill

Kirk asks:

>Finally, I again raise the question of the value of the bottle oxygen purge.
>Assuming flow into the bottle is not turbulent at the surface OR that the
>surface of the beer going into the bottle is covered with a foam head, how
>could purging the bottle of air be of any value whatsoever?  

Kirk,

I assume you're talking about the copper tubing stuck in a cobra-head 
set-up that Darren described a couple of years ago here in the HBD.

I can say that *experience* proves you need to purge the bottle of O2 
before filling with one of these gadgets.  We've been using this little 
device at Cottonwood for our "to-go" bottles and we had oxidation problems 
until we started purging our bottles.

Why?  I presume it's because finished beer is extremely susceptible to 
oxidation.  If you give it the least chance to oxidize, it will.  This has 
clearly been my experience.  I had to deep six the first few kegs of beers 
I kegged because I had not purged my kegs of O2.

Cheers!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kinney Baughman                      |      Beer is my business and
  baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |      I'm late for work.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:46:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk at usa.net>
Subject: Airstones/H2O2/Bottle Fill Pressure

In  #1799 Steve Gravel mentioned he couldn't justify the cost of 
airstones, and several folks lately have again been asking about ss 
airstone sources.  At about $12 US, I too think they're a bit pricey.  An 
alternative aerator I've found to work well is the plastic disposable
kind available in 4-packs in the pet department of a store near you.  
Wal-Mart sells them for about $1 US.  In 18 batches of beer I've used 2 
of them--they stain after a while so I grab a new one.  You can sterilize 
them just as you might a ss unit; I use iodophor, you could use ethanol.


I'm certainly not a chemist, but Kurt's suggestion that H2O2 is 'just 
oxygenated water' seems analogous (inversely) to saying since table salt 
is non-toxic so too must Na and Cl be non-toxic, or like suggesting ozone 
is just oxygenated oxygen.  His concept may work but I think the 
reasoning is bad.  No offense intended.

Tim Laatsch asked about optimum dispensing pressure when filling bottles.
It depends on the tubing diameter and length: with 4' of 3/16 ID tube I 
find 12 psi to be perfect.  BUT, I still have the same problems he 
mentioned of foaming.  I feel the foam is not that big a deal: I fill in 
the sink and top up the bottle 'till it's full to the lip.  When the 
racking tube is removed then drained into the bottle I get about 1/2" of 
headspace and cap immediately.  If you filled over a large salad bowl, 
when you're done bottling you can pour the beer over your head, a 
distinct advantage.

Russell responded to Brian Pickerill on the issue of sparging now, 
boiling later and gave the popular response.  I've done this before (with 
a stout, mind you) but had the same concerns.  After thinking it thru, I felt
the mash wash basically a pasteurization process, and by putting up the 
wort in sanitized jugs and capping them, then refrigerating I would 
avoid any possiblity of infection more or less.  There was once another 
reason given (here, I think) that had to do with wort transformation due 
to the thermal cycling, quite apart from infections.  Anyone remember that?

- ------------------------------------------------------
 Kirk R Fleming / Colorado Springs / flemingk at usa.net
- ------------------------------------------------------ 

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:48:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: More on CPBF

Kirk wrote:

<1) The most expensive unit introduced nearly the most air into the
<  beer (a tie with one of the low-priced units) (Zahm & Nagel)

<2) Two of the three least expensive units did the best at keeping
<air out of the bottled beer. (Beverage People and Braukunst)
<
<3) The 2nd cheapest unit had the best overall performance (Braukunst)
<
<This to me implies some manufacturers either don't know what the design
<requirements are for good performance, price their products arbitrarily,
<or incur wildly varying production costs.

It implys to me that the operators did not understand how to use the 
fillers!

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 09:01:13 -0700
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Brewer's Gold

>From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
>Subject: Brewer's Gold
>
>In the May-June issue of Brewing Techniques Pete Slosberg says that his 
>Wicked Ale is dry-hopped with Brewer's Gold. I'm planning on trying to 
>produce something similar, but wonder about this.  Garetz' book on hops 
>opines that Brewer's Gold is not a good aroma hop.  Has anybody out 
>there ever used it for that purpose?  What are your opinions?  Any 
>comments, or suggestions for a replacement to make something similar to 
>Wicked Ale would be appreciated.
>
I bought some Brewer's Gold hops a couple of years ago, in the (vain) hope
of replicating Ballantine IPA.  Unfortunately, I have to agree with Mark
Garetz on this one -- this were not pleasant hops.  I had another beer, done
by a very good brewer, that was attempting something similar, and the
results were the same.  Pretty gross, really.

I wondered about Pete's dry-hopping myself.  Frankly, I am not a big fan of
PWA (and have never understood its apparently wide appeal) but I wouldn't
have guessed it was dry-hopped at all, and certainly not with the Brewer's
Gold I'd been exposed to.  I was under the distinct impression, in fact,
that previous versions of the beer, at least, were finished with Cascade
hops (see M Jackson).

- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 11:25:00 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: RE: Hold the Sparge/CPBF on the cheap/Aeration, chilling

OK, I've decided not to try holding the sparge (unless I go ahead with
plans to try a Guinness clone ;-)  I was thinking that any "nasties" would
be killed later in the boil, but forgetting they would still effect the
taste.  Doh!

Also, I've decided it would be pointless to try to save time this way since
it would inevitably add to the total time spent brewing.  Perhaps the best
suggestion I got was to simply plan my brewing a bit more, and start the
mash before putting the kids to bed since I'd be mostly waiting for
conversion then anyway.  Of course, the recent discussion on the effects of
not sparging are interesting--total boil volume is a concern, too.  Thanks
to everyone who responded: Dave Bradley, John DeCarlo, Jerry Cunningham,
Russell Mast, and Rich Larsen.

- ---------
My view on doing cheap CPBFs is that it takes a certain touch.  You have to
play with the stopper a bit and try to allow some CO2 to escape under
pressure as the bottle is being filled.  Works in a pinch, but is a lot
harder than ordinary bottling.  (Use a racking cane and a drilled bottle
stopper on the end of the 3/8 hose.  Use low pressure.)

- ---------
Steve (gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil) said:

>    I saw the same posting on aerating wort the easy/cheap way,
>sometime ago, and I have been doing ever since.  When the wort is done
>boiling I carefully pour it into my primary fermenting bucket.
>(collective gasp!) I know, I know, but it works for me with no
>adverse effects.  I then add cold water to the 5 gal. mark (can you
>say "newbie chiller", can't wait to get my 8 gal. brewpot!) and then
>cool using my emersion chiller.

{snip}

OK, so you say you have no problem with off flavors from pouring hot wort.
Maybe some even better reasons not to do this though, is that you could
greatly reduce infection risk and cool the wort much more efficiently if
you would chill in the brew kettle.  Adding your imersion chiller in the
lukewarm wort is a big infection risk.  You should put it to the boiling
wort to sanitize it, chill there (not too much since you are adding cool
water anyway) and THEN pour it into the fermenter.


- --Brian K. Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu> Muncie, IN



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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 9:59:50 PDT
From: Mark Thompson <markt at hpdocp3.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Why sparge?

> Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:09:44 +1000 (EST)
> From: Ken Willing <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
> Subject: Sparging is a waste of time. Don't do it.

deletra
> 
> Think of the malt grain as like an onion, with outer layers and inner
> layers.  (The malt, once it has been crushed into particles, doesn't *quite*
> fit this picture, but the geometry of what I'm about to say remains
> essentially the same.):
Not even close in my view. The curshing ruins the analogy.
> 
> The complex carbohydrates that make for what we call "maltiness" are
> concentrated in the outer layers of the grain in the first place.  Then,
> during kilning, these flavor elements are changed and enhanced tremendously
> (melanoidins, etc.).  -- It's the scorching/heat-alteration of the outer
> layers that contributes by far the majority of these good chemicals.  
But what about all the other science of mashing.  What about decoctions,
Mash temp and fix steps.
> 
> When you put the grain in water and enzymatically convert some of the
> carbohydrates, you don't end up with a completely undifferentiated mush. 
> What you get is still little blobs of fibrous grain.  By the end of the
> mash-out, the outer layers tend to have gone into solution.  But the inner
> layers still cohere.  The substances that have come off the grain *first*,
> outermost layers first (like peeling an onion), is what you're getting in
> the "first runnings".  

But since you have crushed the grain some of the centers of the grain
are now exposed and a split grain will have inner outer layers.
so assuming that the kilning mentioned above generates these maltiness
attributes you would be getting some of these elements and some of the 
elements from the center of the grain at the same time. I don't think that
the kilning is the only source of the maltiness though.
> 
> When you start washing more water through those little blobs, though, what
> you are getting a higher and higher proportion of is just simple sugar
> molecules.  Hence the more you sparge, the more you're diluting flavorful
> maltiness and merely tapping off sugar which will get fermented.  

One of the elements of the outer portion of the grain only comes off at the
end of the sparge, tannins.

I think that it's fine to not sparge, but i don't think that the reasons
given above are the reasons for getting a better brew.  I think that there
could infact be good reasons for getting a more flavorful brew from non
sparge mash.  I think that many high gravity beers are brewed only from
first runnings.  

This has me thinking what if you did a mash with the normal grain dilution
of 1.33:1 but at the end of conversion you added a whole bunch of sparge
water, say 3:1 dilution.  Then you started you recicurlation and once
clear just drained it.  That would give you the speed of no sparge with 
maybe a little more efficency.

Mark Thompson

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:06:39 -0600
From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: Stirring w/ chiller, bottle caps

My concern about stirring the cooling wort is re-suspending the hot break.
At the end of the boil I stir the wort to whirlpool it and then let it
settle out for about 10 minutes before cooling.  The hot break settles to
the middle of the converted keg bottom.  Because of the limits of my system,
I do not rack off of the hot break before cooling.  What are the trade-offs
of cooling quickly versus transferring hot break to the fermenter?  Do those
of  you with a similar system consider this to be a problem?

On another subject, does anyone know where to get custom printed bottle
caps?  Post or email would be appreciated.

Neal Christensen
Missoula, MT


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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 14:21:29 EDT
From: pbabcock at e-mail.com
Subject: Not as cheap, but more effective cheap true CPBF...


Greetings!

With all this prattle about the hose-in-the-spigot style filler, I thought I'd
offer up the following enhancement (though I'm sure it is not _my_ idea -
definitely read it somewhere before; just don't remember where...). This is a
_true_ counter-pressure filler, as opposed to the open bottle method as
described in Zymurgy. Read on...

Cut off a length of racking cane about 2 inches (51 mm) taller than your
bottle. Insert tube through one of those drilled, beer-bottle sized stopper
(can't remember the number), and attach to your tube-in-the-spigot CPBF. Now,
set the stopper position to place the end of the tube (cut the end of the tube
at an angle if you like) at the bottom of the bottle with a _moderate_ seal on
the bottle mouth.

Now, put the tupe and stopper in the bottle, using your thumb to hold the
stopper and regulate the rate at which pressure is relieved from the bottle.
When bottle is full, remove filler, and cap. Result: Much less foam because
the bottle is being filled under pressure; the beer doesn't see a pressure
drop.

This one comes with a government warning: The wall-cleaner general warns that
you don't lock the picnic faucet handle in the 'on' position, and that you are
careful not to let go of the stopper while filling. Doing so could be
hazardous to your clothing, wall coverings, marriage, etc...


  Brew On!
  Pat Babcock
  Brewer, Patriot, Engineer, Father, Husband, Tinkerer, Inventor, Tax-Payer,
  Land-Scaper, Pool Cleaner, on ad infinitum but not necessarily in that
  order...

IYWIDRTYMJFDIY
Best regards,                   Michigan Truck Plant PVT Office
Patrick G. Babcock              38303 Michigan Avenue
(313)46-70842 (V) -70843 (F)    38303 Michigan Wayne,MI 48184

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:39:21 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: Keep your food cold!

In today's HBD the following post was made:

>From: stafford at alcor.hac.com (Jack Stafford)

>I've been using my refrigerator's thermostat.
>The settings go from 0 to 6.  Right now it is set at 1.5 to
>achieve a very steady temerature of 48 degrees F.

>Food seems to spoil  a tad sooner but the lagers....
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm curious as to how many homebrewers set there food 
refrigerators at lager fermentation temperatures?

Most brewers that I know have a SEPARATE refrigerator for
lagering if they intend to modulate temperature.  I was
alarmed to see that Jack is using the same refrigerator
for storing food and keeping it at 48F.  This is a dangerous 
practice.  Some food may "spoil" without you knowing it.  At
this temperature, some human pathogens can grow.  You are
putting yourself at significant risk, especially if you have
meats, fish, chicken, or dairy products in that refrigerator.
Salmonella, shigella, Staphylococcus, E. coli can all be found
in fresh foods.  Refrigeration prevents them from multiplying to
an infectious numbers.

You should keep your refrigerator below 35F to maintain good
preservative quality.  Homebrewing shouldn't be a dangerous 
hobby.  Don't risk your life or health for an award winning
beer.  


JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 10:56:00 PDT
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Beer and Brewing in Israel


A while back someone queried about homebrewing in Israel.  I have the 
opportunity to move to Israel for 6 months to a year.  I was there a few 
weeks ago and the beer scene was dismal - unless I was looking in the 
wrong place...

Does anyone know what the scene is?

thanks
martin

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:41:26 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Things that smell and things that don't

        Does anyone have numbers (in ppm) for danger levels of carbon
monoxide and propane? I've come into a gas alarm that will alarm for both
and I thought it might be of use in my indoor brewery. These are the two I
should be worried about, right?

P.S.  I'll brave the radon. I know that my basement is 2.5 times the action
level for that, but I don't do too much hanging out there and it will be
WELL ventilated while I'm brewing.

P.P.S. I wish I could spend half as much time brewing as I did HBD-ing. I
just can't convince them at work to let me brew on my coffee breaks.
They're kinda funny that way here.


Harry




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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 17:58:15 -0400
From: DocsBrew at aol.com
Subject: Heat Exchanging.


Good Morning!  In the August 3rd hbd, the subject of stirring wort while
using an immersion type heat exchanger came up again.  Wim Hielkema said:

>When cooling the wort I just wiggle the chiller at the 
>hose connections to stir the wort. It takes 15-20
>minutes of wiggling to cool 25 liters of boiling wort to 20 C this way

When I used an immersion chiller, I could drop the temperature from boiling
to about 70-75F in about 15-20 minutes.  Am I missing something?  What's the
advantage - or the need - for stirring.  My rudimentary understanding of
thermochemistry (that was a lloooooong time ago!!) would say that it doesn't
matter a bit whether it's stirred or not.  Any thermochemists have an
explanation that says different??

I now use the kind of heat exchanger where the wort runs inside the copper
tubing in a water bath (what did we decide that was called??).  It seems to
me that it wouldn't make a difference whether it was an ice bath (cubes and
H2O), or if it were frozen solid - that the heat should exchange the same
either way.  Does anyone have a different view?  Or better yet....proof?

TIA,

Doc.
*********************DocsBrew.....Cures What Ales Ya!
(tm)***********************************


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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:30:11 -0700
From: stevep at pcx.ncd.com (Steve Peters)
Subject: stirring the chill

Just for the record I used to just let my immersion chiller sit in the wort and
chill, but I became too impatient.  I now have a counter-flow chiller (yippie!)
but when I was immersion chilling I always gently stirred w/o a lid of any kind
and never had an infection or HSA bite to my beers.  If you want to see how
effective stirring is during the chill, grip the outgoing chill pipe with one
hand, note the tempature, then while holding the pipe stir the wort slowly.
 You may have to let go of the chiller to keep from burning yourself!

Dry hopping:  I never had good results from dry hopping until I got my corny
kegs.  The last two batches I've added 2 oz of hops to the keg in a hop sack
weighted with marbles and racked the beer on top.  Finally!  That dry hop
flavor I've been looking for!

I haven't tried to open or clean these kegs yet, so I'm hoping there isn't a
disaster inside.

- -- 
Steve Peters

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:08:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca>
Subject: CPBF/24 hr brew sessionstoring sparge)

Guys,

For the counter pressuree filling don't the major breweries FOB i.e. make 
there beer foam after filling to purge the neck of O2 laden air and cap 
directly.  Has anyone tried this?  I know of 2 ways to fob the bottle 
1)"Whack/rap" it gently to make the CO2 rise suddenly (you'll recognize this 
as a variation of your obnoxious drinking buddy slamming your bottle on 
the bar and 1/2 of it overflowing)
2)Major breweries inject a stream of sterile H2O into each bottle before 
it is capped.  
The foam (beer and CO2) pushes out the Air and you throw the cap on.  
Correct me if I'm wrong but the neck CO2 space in commercial beer is 
determined by the Fobbing not by any optimal volume/CO2/equilibria what 
do you call it.  Has any one tried thumping there bottle as they place it 
in their bench capper?  Putting the cap on the bottle with foam in the 
neck would remove the O2, would it not?  you would have to carbonate to a 
higher level to start with, but with a bit of guess work and 
experimenting a suitable pressure could be found.
Standard disclaimer:  I do not force carbonate and add sugar to the flat 
beer when bottling.  All of the above is conjecture based solely on my 
opinions and a few facts of unknown origin.

Storing Sparge:  A few people suggested that Brian(?) should brew a 
sour/lacto compatible brew, excellent thought I agree.  Or, why don't you 
chill the sparge and put it in your chest freezer/spare fridge/in a 
snowbank(season permitting) for the 24 hrs.  Obviously this would minimize 
bacterial growth.  Chill it as you would your boil (CF,CCF,PI,TI,NC,BC we 
don't have to go there agian, In a chiller.),or floating blocks of ice in 
sealed containers in the sparge. Transferring to an extra fermentation 
bucket,gallon jugs/pails or say 12X2L pop bottles, whatever fits best in 
your refrigeration source.  
Thaw (if applicable) the wort soon enough before your boiling session.  
Is there any bad side effects to freezing the sparge?  If there are no side 
effects you could stagger your brewing between weekends given a chest 
freezer or a good arctic wind!
For the chiller consider a small second chiller.  I don't trust Mr. 
Lactobacillus enough to give him a guided tour of my CF.  A good 
sanitation/sterilization would probably negate this problem but running 
raw grain juice through my chiller is a line I won't easily cross.  A small 
chiller configuration should work considering the slow exit of the sparge.   

I'm going on holidays next week, to see the In-laws (holiday?).  I will 
read any responses/posts when I get back.  I am interested in any and 
all responses/flames.

See ya,						Rob



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Date: Sat,  5 Aug 1995 01:25:00 GMT
From: fletch at poohs.com (Dave Fletcher)
Subject: Caramel flavor

 
I would like to ask the collective wisdom a question concerning caramel
flavors.  My last beer (an IPA) was judged favorably in a recent contest,
and comments from each judge indicated that there was a distinctive caramel
flavor to it which perhaps kept it from scoring a ribbon.  The same comments
were noted from a previous contest as well, and having been "educated" enough
now to recognize this particular characteristic I must admit that most of my
20-30 batches must have had this flavor which, heretofore, was just considered
a "house" flavor. 

OK, so what causes caramel flavors?  The (IPA) judges have suggested that 
burning the wort can cause this (obviously) and one judge commented that using
too dark a crystal malt might do the same given the style.  I can honestly say
that I have never burnt or scorched the wort (rarely ANY discoloration on
the inside bottom of the kettle), and I have used crystals in the 20L-60L 
range and extracts from light to dark with very little variance in this 
caramel flavor.

I am a partial brewer, and I boil on a gas stove using a 5-gal stainless 
kettle using various names of extract, grains, hops, etc.  The only real 
consistencies are the kettle, the stove, the size of batch, and in a rough 
sense, the length of time to a rolling boil.  Given those consistencies I ask
the following:
  
  Can long periods of time bringing the wort to boil have this effect? 
    Currently, it takes me well over 45 minutes to bring the wort to a 
    rolling boil though there is no apparent scorching or burning taking 
    place.  I make it a point to keep the spoon active for the duration.
    Add to that the additional 60-90 minutes of boil time.  Is this too long?
  Should I "dilute" the wort with water so that I am boiling a higher volume
    or should I continue to boil wort in and around the 3 gallons I currently
    boil?  It seems to me that the higher the gravity of the wort, the greater
    the likelihood of carmelization.  Am I incorrect in my assumption?
  What else might I do to avoid this, etc., etc?
   
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Email and I'll summarize if 
there is a significant response.
 
fletch at poohs.com



- ---
 * KWQ/2 1.2i * 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1800, 08/05/95