FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: waiting to cool (PatrickM50)
  Mash today boil tomorrow ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Computers (Stephbrown)
  Wow! Would you believe... (TRoat)
  Guys/Exotic Fruit Beer (Drea )
  Stirring with Immersion Chiller (dflagg)
  Re: Heat Exchanging. (Wim Hielkema)
  Counter-pressure bottle fillers ("Bob Hall" )
  Celis clone (HOMEBRE973)
  Dry Hopping with Pellets/Brewer's Gold Hops (Jeff Hewit)
  ole miss micros (MR WADE A WALLINGER)
  Aeration equipment from BR (LEE_BOLLARD)
  CPBF (MicahM1269)
  CPBF cont (MicahM1269)
  Aquarium pumps (David Oliver)
  Wheat beer questions (Jim Dickinson)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 11:15:49 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: waiting to cool

In HBD 1800, Neal writes:

>At the end of the boil I stir the wort to whirlpool it and then let it
>settle out for about 10 minutes before cooling.  The hot break settles to
>the middle of the converted keg bottom. 

I'd suggest reversing the process, i.e. cool as soon and as quickly as
possible and then whirlpool the wort and let sit 10 minutes (covered) before
siphoning to the fermenter.  If you let the hot wort sit for another 10
minutes *before* cooling you have essentially added that time to the boil and
your late hop additions may have a different effect than you intended.

Pat Maloney





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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 95 13:22:28 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: Mash today boil tomorrow

I did this only once.  I had a nightmare stuck sparge from using steel cut 
oats, next time I will use instant quaker oats.  I did a mashout but 
probably didn't hit 170F.  I then had to go out so I left the brew in my 
boil kettle out doors on a spring evening it got into the 40sF and boiled 
the next day.  The beer , an oatmeal stout was very good, it lacked body.  
I suspect that the thin body was due to additional enzme activity in the 17 
or so hours from when I finished mashing to when I boiled.  If you had to 
do this.  You may want to: 
Ensure you hit mashout, the chill with a sanitized wort chiller to room 
temp and store cool..
If you can't chill and store cool
Produce a more dexrinous wort which will get reduced to simpler sugars in 
the storage phase.  . 

Lee Menegoni	
NEC Technologies
1414 Mass. Ave / MS 2110
Boxborough MA 01719-2298
v 508-635-6282
f 508-264-8787
LMenegoni at NECTech.com

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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:23:49 -0400
From: Stephbrown at aol.com
Subject: Computers

I just have to ask this:

Am I the only homebrewer who uses a Mac?  I have seen a number of software
products available for brewers, but I have never seen anything available for
Macintosh.

Is there anyone out there who either knows of some Mac software, or who
commiserates (sp?)?

Stephen Brown

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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 21:04:20 -0400
From: TRoat at aol.com
Subject: Wow! Would you believe...

Made a batch of "LeftOver Ale", a batch comprised of leftover recipe grains
that were piling up in my freezer (Munich, Belgian, Crystal, Dextrine,
Toasted, Challenger hops, Cascade, 6# DME).  I used 2 packets of Edme dried
yeast, rehydrated.   OG 1.057 and clear as bell going into fermenter - with a
great toasted nutty flavor.  
ONE HOUR after pitching yeast I have fermentation acitivity (an inch of
reproduced yeast on top covered with dark brown krausen and chunks of yeast
beginning to ricochet all over and blowoff every 30 seconds)!!!.  Is this
possible - obviously it is cause its a happenin' :-) !! Anyone else been
blessed with such a fast start!  What did I do right :-) ?!

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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 95 21:09:16 EDT
From: faye at plainfield.bypass.com (Drea )
Subject: Guys/Exotic Fruit Beer

Hi ho, all --

This is my first post to the ol' HBD, so if what I'm about to ask is a 
complete and blatant breach of etiquette, do feel free to tell me so -- I 
subscribed just in time to catch the tail end of the religion thing, but I 
couldn't quite figure out if non-technical brewing 
questions/comments/discussions were kosher, if you'll pardon the pun.  But 
here goes:
I've noticed, not just on this list, but in my day-to-day life that the VAST 
majority of homebrewers are guys -- at least the ones who are vocal about it 
(could be I deal with closeted brewing gals every day and just don't realize 
it, I suppose).  I've noticed a couple of female names here (altho I do 
realize that not all the addresses/sigs disclose the poster's gender) but 
only a couple.  A recent post (I *believe* it was from Rob Brown?) was even 
addressed to
 "Guys --."  Certainly no flame intended, but it sorta piqued my curiosity. 
What's the deal?  Why so few gal-brewers? Hmmm?  I'm interested to know what 
folks think.

Okay, now for yer basic homebrew question:
Anybody know of any recipes for beer made with exotic/unusual fruits?  I've 
done a few  berry brews (most recently a blackberry peach lager -- oh, yum.  
If anyone's interested, I'll pass the recipe along, but it would probably 
disappoint you all-grain brewers, as it does involve, um, well, to put it 
bluntly, extracts <cringe>), but I'm thinkin bigger these days: Kiwi, 
pineapple, pomegranate (christ, I can't even spell that one), things along 
these lines.  And what about citrus?  I've seen lots of recipes with orange 
peel/cinnamon combos, and I know Pete's has a 
not-very-tasty-at-all-if-you-ask-me Summer Brew that's flavored with lemon, 
but how about the humble lime?  Let's just say I've got the fruit beer bug, 
and I'd love any recipes/leads/suggestions/anecdotes that y'all have to offer.

Thank ya, thank ya

Drea
p.s. private or public responses welcome as can be

faye at plainfield.bypass.com


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 10:41:02 -0400
From: dflagg at agate.net
Subject: Stirring with Immersion Chiller

Richard Stueven recently wrote:

> I recently worked out a way to suspend my immersion chiller so that
> it's mostly near the top of the kettle rather than sitting on the
> bottom.  This cut my chilling time by about 25%.  No stirring
> necessary...let convection do the work!

I believe a cooler (whether immersion or counterflow) performs two
functions: cooling the wort to pitching temps and assisting in the
formation of cold break.  If one's only purpose is to just cool the
wort, then either the stationary or agitating method will work (although
the agitating method will be faster).

It has been my experience that the faster the wort is cooled, the greater
the formation of cold break.  Also, I believe agitating the wort will
cause the cold break material to bang into one another, form larger
particles, therefore falling out of the wort faster. (This premise is
not based on any personal scientific observation, just extrapolation
from what I have read).

>From a break removal perspective, then, agitation is clearly the method 
to use.  As far as stirring or jiggling the cooler goes, my preference
is for jiggling the cooler.  I believe it allows more agglutination of the
break material than stirring (just personal opinion).

************************************************************
Doug Flagg                  |  "A Homebrew a day...
dflagg at orono.sdi.agate.net  |   Keeps the Worries away!"
************************************************************

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 17:59:53 +0100
From: betonh at xs4all.nl (Wim Hielkema)
Subject: Re: Heat Exchanging.

Hello all,

In HBD #1800 DocsBrew at aol.com was asking if stirring really makes cooling
wort go faster:

>When I used an immersion chiller, I could drop the temperature from boiling
>to about 70-75F in about 15-20 minutes.  Am I missing something?  What's the
>advantage - or the need - for stirring.  My rudimentary understanding of
>thermochemistry (that was a lloooooong time ago!!) would say that it doesn't
>matter a bit whether it's stirred or not.  Any thermochemists have an
>explanation that says different??

The main problem here is that no two (homebuild) chillers are alike. This,
and the fact that the batch size, flow-rate and temperature of the cooling
water used differs for everybody, makes it awkward to compare cooling
times. IMHO you should be able to achieve cooling times of 15-20 minutes.
If this time doubles then you should think about changing your setup e.g.
stir and/or use longer tubing.

To get back to your question: Stirring does improve the efficiency of the
chiller. The rate at which heat is exchanged from the wort to the chiller
is a function of the temperature difference between the wort and the
cooling water. If you don't stir, the wort directly around the chiller will
cool quickly, creating a temperature gradient in the wort which causes the
efficiency to drop. You now only have natural convection to counter this
gradient. Stirring will cause mixing of the hot and cold wort in the kettle
much more quickly, allowing the hot wort to get faster to the chiller and
thus be cooled more efficiently. Formulas about efficiency are around
somewhere in the one of the chiller FAQ's at stanford, but I don't recall
them covering this subject.
The best proof is to try it yourself. If you stir your next batch (be
careful to avoid HSA) you should see that that cooling times will go down.
Again direct comparison of the results will be difficult, make sure you
compare your results with a batch using the same batch size, water flow and
temperature of the water as best as possible.

>I now use the kind of heat exchanger where the wort runs inside the copper
>tubing in a water bath (what did we decide that was called??).  It seems to
>me that it wouldn't make a difference whether it was an ice bath (cubes and
>H2O), or if it were frozen solid - that the heat should exchange the same
>either way.  Does anyone have a different view?  Or better yet....proof?

Wasn't that called a reversed immersion chiller? Using icewater instead of
tap water should speed up cooling but I think any benefits are cancelled
out if you allow the the ice bath to heat up to much during cooling, so you
need to add cool water to the bath to get maximum efficiency. An advantage
is that you can stir the water bath much more vigorously than the wort :-).

Bye, Wim.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wim Hielkema, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. Organic chemist & homebrewer.
betonh at xs4all.nl, http://www.xs4all.nl/~betonh/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 14:44:30 -0400
From: "Bob Hall" <bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu>
Subject: Counter-pressure bottle fillers

Kirk F. writes:

>After having read subject review I drew the following conclusions:
snip
>3) By far the best performance in limiting introduced air into
>   solution is obtained with the $.20 tube-in-the-faucet solution

I could not agree more. That article was useful in that it saved me a bunch of 
cash. My counterpressure filler was described on some HBD a while back by some 
resourceful brewer (ie. not me), and is a modification of the tube method. 
Put a bottle sized stopper on a piece of stiff poly tubing. Attach with at piece
of soft tubing to the party tap. Insert tube to the bottom of the bottle and 
seal with stopper. Open tap. Beer will rush into the bottle until it is about 
1/3 full which is when pressure inside bottle equilibrates with keg pressure. 
Gently wiggle stopper to let gas out of bottle which will let in more beer. When
full  release tap and remove tube. I find much less foaming with this method.
   Unfortunately it is about 5 times as expensive as the tube and faucet method 
 - about $1.00...

Bob Hall


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:15:18 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: Celis clone

Hi Y' Ale,
As we say in the South.  I thought I would report on my attempt at a Celis
Clone following Rick Garvin's Cherry Blossom Wit (Zymurgy 18 (1):57).  I
used:
0.4 lbs rolled oats
3 lbs. 10 oz. flaked wheat
4 lbs. DWC pilzen malt

Step infusion mash  with 1 hr at 124 F; 1 hr 10 min at 145 to 150 F; mash out
at 160 and sparge at 160 with 1.5 h sparge to get 6 .75 gallons. Used 1.3 oz
of Tetnang. pellet AA 4.3  for 70 min boil, 1/2 oz bitter orange peel last 20
min of boil; last 5 min added 1.25 oz of coriander seed (crushed); and about
0.5 oz of Saaz pellets.  Chilled and pitched with Wyeast 3944.  (5 gallons
with o.g. 1.040).  Fermented between 70 to 74 F. Racked 8 days later with
gravity at 1.011.   Bottled with 120 grams of dextrose at f.g. of 1.011.
 Added 5 ml of 88% lactic acid to last 2.25 gallons bottled.

Notes:
Sparge went beautifully with no problems.
Hard time grinding coriander seeds with mortar and pestle.

Compared directly with Celis White after 1 month in bottle.

Color was almost exactly the same and both had pure white heads.  However,
the Celis had a longer lasting head.  My clone was much drier and lacked the
sweet fruitiness found in the actual Celis white.  Comparing the two beers, I
liked the actual Celis better because of its sweetness and fruit flavor which
my clone only has hints of.
Any suggestions or comments are welcome.
Andy Kligerman
homebre973 at aol.com

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 15:20:09 -0400
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Dry Hopping with Pellets/Brewer's Gold Hops



In response to a query about dry hopping with pellets, I just
drop the pellets loose into the secondary - no bag, no
pasturizing. Since most of the fermenting has already taken
place, there is enough alcohol to ward of any infection that
the hops may introduce.  I wait at least 2 weeks, usually 3,
before I bottle.  By that time, the hops have settled to the
bottom of the carboy.  Anyway, I have had no problems with this
method since I started using it about 6 batches ago.  I get
clear beer, with no off flavors, and plenty of hop aroma.

There was also a comment about using Brewer's Gold as the dry
hop for Pete's Wicked Ale.  The label on the neck indicates
that Brewer's Gold is used, but doesn't indicate if it's
bittering or aroma.  I attempted to make a Wicked Ale clone,
based on a number of recipes included in HBD and RCB.  I used
BG (1.25 oz - 5 gal batch) as my bittering hop, and used
Willamette at the end of the boil and in dry hopping.  I was
very pleased with the result.  The clone was bit darker, but
tasted very similar to the real thing.  In a blind taste test, 
one could tell that the clone and the Pete's were two different
beers, but it was hard to really know which was which.  Has
anyone else tried a clone of Pete's that they were pleased
with?  

- --
Jeff Hewit
******************************************************************************
Eat a live toad first thing in the morning and nothing worse
will happen to you the rest of the day.

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Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 16:19:09 EDT
From: GCTD31A at prodigy.com (MR WADE A WALLINGER)
Subject: ole miss micros

jeff foley asks about brew pubs and micros in mississippi. 
unfortunately for us brew enthusiasts, jeff is in for a rude 
awakening. not only do brew pubs and micros not exist, they are 
illegal. in fact, home brewing is illegal as well (although it seems 
that counties can exercise their local option and legalize home 
brewing locally). this was also the case in alabama until a few years 
ago when the state agreed to allow brew pubs to operate in historic 
buildings (i.e., feel free to invest in order to revitalize urban 
centers). the good news is that hattiesburg mississippi is not too 
far from mobile alabama (home of the port city brewery) and new 
orleans and the rest of louisiana (home to several brew pubs and 
micros).

on another topic - bacteria. seems i've run into a bit of bad luck 
lately with these little buggers. i attempted a blueberry wheat by 
adding the fruit to the secondary after blanching at about 150 deg f. 
white stuff was floating on the surface of the primary. i racked and 
found the white stuff appearing on the secondary. i bottled and now 
have a rather tart blueberry 'lambic'. i tested its affect on my 
digestive tract and found no ill affects.

the following batch was a brown ale. looked and tasted great on 
racking to the secondary. now the white stuff is appearing on the 
surface. i wager that the racking cane is the culprit, even though i 
soaked it in bleach water between uses (the cane has a small cork in 
the bottom which i suspect harbored the blasted buggers). not to give 
up hope, i plan to keg this batch quickly, before the white stuff 
gets out of control. the keg will be refrigerated at 40 deg f. would 
you expect the buggers to grow at that temperature? i will report 
back to the digest on the progress (regress?) of this tuff, if i live.
 and i'm also saying a prayer (sorry for the religious reference) for 
the raspberry wheat i racked this weekend.

wawa - brewing contraband in mississippi (hey, maybe i could turn the 
'lambic' into bathtub gin!?!?!)


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 95 17:15:53 -0600
From: LEE_BOLLARD at HP-Spokane-om2.om.hp.com
Subject: Aeration equipment from BR

Item Subject: Aeration pump
     Tim Fields writes:
          :I've used my aeration kit (pump, ss airstone- from Brewers 
          :Resources) for four batches now.  My fermentations may kick 
          :off a little faster, but so far the diff is minimal. My 
          :main concern in getting it was to ensure complete ferments 
          :- and in that it has been admirable. 
          
     I used to use a "venturi tube" to aerate my cooled wort.  This 
     produced tons of bubbles, but my fermentations often stuck in the 
     mid 20's.  Since I got the aquarium pump and SS stone my 
     fermentations finish all the way.  1.060 down to 1.012 using 
     Wyeast #1056 is success in my book!  I use it for the starters 
     too.  I used to just shake the starters.
     
          :Because of the airstone, I find it impossible to dry out 
          :the hose and that could lead to contamination.
          
      Before I read the instructions saying not to try to disconnect 
      the airstone from the tubing I pulled on the stone and the tack 
      welds broke very easily.  I was surprised after "breaking" the 
      thing, but I am now pleased.  I can push the stone onto it's 
      metal connector for use.  It stays on fine.  I just pull it off 
      to sanitize and/or dry the tubing.  Works great.  I LIKE the 
      idea of connecting the stone to a racking tube.  This may be 
      ideal.
      
      Regards,
      
      Lee Bollard
      bollard at spk.hp.com

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 20:08:28 -0400
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: CPBF

As many HBDers have read the Zymury review of the CPBFs. I would
like to have my say. I am a partial owner in one companies that make CPBFs.
The article was not as well done as I had expected. The inconsistancies in
the air level and CO2 level are most likely the result of user error. The
high air levels are probalby due to low fill levels. 


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 20:17:34 -0400
From: MicahM1269 at aol.com
Subject: CPBF cont

I have the same testing equipment for air and CO2 levels as G. Fix
who did the tests for the reveiw. I have consistantly tested bottles with air
levels below 0.5 ml. I feel that an operator who is familiar with 
a CPBF can do a much better job than the reveiwers.

micah- brewer at large


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 19:02:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Oliver <dwo at slip.net>
Subject: Aquarium pumps

I just bought an aquarium pump and an airstone for airation purposes.  
But now I'm having second thoughts. Is this worthwhile, will I have 
infection problems not filtering the air with a submicron filter? Should 
I just buy a O2 tank and airstone like the one I saw in Brewing 
Techniques or do I just shake the carboy for 10 mins like I have been doing?
  Dave O

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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:12:46 GMT
From: jdickins at baste.magibox.net (Jim Dickinson)
Subject: Wheat beer questions

hey all,

I have several questions concerning wheat beer mainly concerning Eric
Warner's book.

1) When he says to pitch 3.5 oz of weissbeer yeast and .33 oz of lager yeast
why are the volumes so low? Especially the lager yeast volumes.

2) What will the bottle conditioning/lagering do to the final taste? I am
going to do just this on my next batch.

3) In his book Warner mentions dark munich malt, but in all my hb catalogs I
see no mention of a *dark* munich malt. Any ideas?

4) I have read that open primary fermentation will yield better results with
the Weihenstephan yeast. Can I use a regular carboy without the stopper and
in a sink?

5) I had a wheat beer brought back from germany and the ones I make are close
but they do not have the slightly sour aftertaste that the german one did. Do
I need to use the lactic acid forming yeast?

6) I am wondering if the hallertau mittelfrueh hops I received from jim koch
are appropriate for this style? Used in the proper amounts, of course.

help with any of these questions is greatly appreciated.

thanks,
jim

jdickins at baste.magibox.net


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1801, 08/07/95