FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  party pig (Help !!?!!) (Slyboyy)
  dopplebock recipe (Mike Otten (Back Office))
  Partial Mash/Dilution Function (DCB2)
  Fridge Temp. Controller design? (Scott Bukofsky)
  FERMENTATION WORRIES! (Ian Bishop)
  Pitching temp (Jim Busch)
  dilution function (Christopher R. Vyhnal)
  PVC manifold in the picnic cooler mash/lauter tun (hadleyse)
  Bathtub brewing ("Bob Hall" )
  SG/T correction (Christopher R. Vyhnal)
  Mead ("James Giacalone")
  Quick pitch extract trick (KRUSE_NEIL)
  Xylan? (Joseph.Fleming)
  H2O2 thread lives! (Domenick Venezia)
  What type of funnels? (JoyflRaven)
  AOLers (Domenick Venezia)
  Question or IMBR? (Douglas R. Jones)
  more chilling times (Chuck Wettergreen)
  more chilling times (Chuck Wettergreen)
  More syphoning help ("Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556")
  Mega Craft Breweries (AlBrewer)
  Speciality malts and receipe request (PERSAND)
  H2O2 and Ice (Bill Johns)
  Re: Dilution Function / H2O2 (Dan Sherman)
  Mash-out and extract efficiency (Mario Robaina)
  Newbie question on B-Brite (Brandon's Daddy)
  hops ("Wallinger, W. A.")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 04:30:11 -0400
From: Slyboyy at aol.com
Subject: party pig (Help !!?!!)

I just filled my party pig for the first time and had a difficult time
telling if the air bag popped (I did not hear anything) so I just kept
pumping, then the figin pump hose shot off and un-carbonated beer ejected out
of the pig. I assume I pumped the required amount of air to start the air bag
going so I closed it up and let the excess air out,and put it in my basement
for conditioning. I hope I dont go down there and find pig guts all over my
walls.

Anybody with any suggestions or hint about this unit would be greatly
appreciated 
Thanx in advance

Michael
slyboyy at aol.com

August 14, 1995


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 06:44:25 EDT
From: motten at maestro.fcmc.COM (Mike Otten (Back Office))
Subject: dopplebock recipe

Does anyone have a recipe for a DoppleBock?  Being that the SO has been
gestating for 9 months and 2 days (at this writing), I'd love to get
this batch up and boogying before my priorities are rearranged
(Brewing, Baby {tie}, Wife).  Since I am an extract brewer {no flames,
please}, I'd appreciate recipes which cater to this method, but I am
willing to take the plunge into partial grain brewing or {gasp} all
grain.  

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Private
e-mail is fine.

TIA

Mike    {motten at fcmc.com}


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 2:33:45 PDT
From: DCB2%OPS%DCPP at bangate.pge.com
Subject: Partial Mash/Dilution Function


in HOMEBREW Digest #1807  Victor Hugo states:

<snip>

>disclaimer), the proprieter tried to sell me on a "partial mash kit".  His
>explinations of the kit said it inclued the ground grains and all other
>essentials.  I asked if it needed to be boiled (I don't have a huge brew
>kettle at this time) and he said it didn't need a heavy boil and it only
>needed a lite sparge (his words where "hot rinse").

>My questions:  Whats up with that?  It doesn't seem like it would work to
>this novice!
>Does anyone have any experience with this type of kit?

Actually doing a partial mash is one way that you can:
1) Introduce yourself to Mashing without buying a lot of expensive equipment
   or
2) Add a little more color/flavor/head to your extract brew.

Here's the deal.  If you do a full mash you're committed to doing a full boil 
with the entire 5+ gallons in order to sterilize and get the proteins to 
precipitate out (hot/cold break).  In addition a full rolling boil is needed 
to release the Alpha Acids from the hops (bitterness).  By doing a partial 
mash 1-2 lbs grain you can mash and sparge in your kitchen using a large 
sauce pan for a mash tun and a collander for sparging in.  You then take this 
liquid and boil it with any hops you are using and add your extract to it as 
you would with an all extract kit.  When the boil is complete add cold water 
to your carboy and then pour the hot concentrated wort in as you would with a 
kit (straining out the hops if applicable).      

- ------------------------------
                            
Rich Larsen asks:

>I was thinking about a constant that I could apply to my specific gravity 
>reading to adjust for dilution when adding water.

>What I came across was an interesting thing.  When adding simple sugars 
>to the wort the SG responds in a linear fasion, but when adding water to 
>dilute the wort, thus lowering the SG, it responds parabolicly, almost an 
>inverse square.  So I ask the more mathmatically inclined, what is this 
>constant function?

I'm no chemist but I think you could get pretty darn close simply using a 
weighted average.  That is to say if you had 3 gallons of 1.085 wort and 
added 2 gallons of pure water 1.000 you would end up with:

   ((3 * 1.085) + (2 * 1.000))/5 = SG      
     ( 3.255    +     2)/5       = SG
               5.255/5           = 1.051       

>If we had this function, it would be unnecesary to take a sample from the 
>fermenter after topping off.  All one would need to know would be the 
>gravity of the wort as it goes into the fermenter and how much top off 
>water is added.

It's an equation actually and the equation would be:

        SGi*Vi + SGw*Vw = SGf*Vf

 or if solved for SG of the Fermenter

        (SGi*Vi + Vw)/Vf = SGf  

Where SGi is SG and Vi is volume of the concentrated wort.  Vw is volume of 
water added. SGw=1 so it can be dropped from the equation as Vw*1=Vw.  Now I 
know some chemist will tell us that the total volume of a solution may not be 
as much as the sum of the two solutions added to make it and I'll give you 
that but it will get us close enough for what we're doing that the 2% error 
will not be measurable on your hydrometer.

I love story problems :-) 

- ------------------------------

Meanwhile Stephen Brown predicts

>Based on this observation, here is my theory:  The only good beer after the
>year 2000 is going to be homebrew.  Eventually all of the craftbreweries are
>going to be bought up by the big guys, or be put out of business by them.
>Once there is no competition from other craft breweries, the big guys will
>either close the craft breweries or turn them into small versions of
>themselves.  This whole beer fascination is a phase for most people.

>So remember - we are the few people who will carry the torch, we will be the
>only people with good beer (again - like it was 10 years ago)!
                         
<opinion mode on>
Steve you're such a pessimist<g>.  Good beer isn't anything *new*, Europeans 
have been drinking good beer long before anybody in this country even knew 
what a microbrewery was. If, as you say, the big guys turn their micros into 
smaller versions of the parent Swill Factories then I predict that *new* 
Micros will pop up to fill the void.  Once beer drinkers taste really good 
beer there's no going back to that other swill.  Corona with a lime in was 
the "phase" and it was the precursor to the micro beer Bonanza we're seeing 
now.

BTW, do a side by side taste test of Red Hook <tm> and Fullers ESB <tm> and 
you will see that Fullers is noticably better (no flames please until you try 
it).  If I hadn't tried it myself I never would have thought it possible 
because I like Red Hook too (standard disclaimers).
<opinion mode off>                           

					David Boe

David Boe                    |  "She turned me into a newt!"
Pacific Gas & Electric       |  "A *newt* ?!"
DCB2 at pge.com                 |  "I got better!"

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:20:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bukofsky <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Fridge Temp. Controller design?


Does anyone have a good design for a home-made temperature controller for 
a fridge/freezer?  I want to do some lagering, and I hate to buy pre-made 
equipment; I'd rather tinker.  Any schematics or design info would be 
helpful.

 -Scott

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 23:03:58 EST
From: ibishop at tanus.oz.au (Ian Bishop)
Subject: FERMENTATION WORRIES!


Hi all HBD gurus (bow, grovel). I have a little problem, and hopefully 
it will cure itself, however, I'm taking no chances!

I have prepared a 5 gallon Ale, pitched 3 packets of dry yeast (2 
rehydrated, 1 dry 24hrs later, after lack of activity) and don't yet 
have an active fermentation. I've never had this happen before in a 
couple of dozen batches, and don't want to throw a batch away (sob)

The mix is basically 3.6kg of John Bull extract (2 cans), water & yeast.

Help me please!
- --------------------------------------------------------------
>From the desk of Ian Bishop - The Mad Muso of Mount Isa, Aust.
   Please Direct All Flames to \DEV\NUL or 0:0/0 - Thanks!!

     All Real Replies to IBISHOP at TANUS.OZ.AU or 3:640/706
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 

- ---
 * RM 1.3 A1824 * 24 Hours in a day. 24 Beers in a case. Coincidence? Not!

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pitching temp

Pat relates:

<Time to cool wort to 80 deg. F  using 25'x 3/8" copper tubing immersion
<chiller = approx 20-25 minutes

I just wanted to point out to any newer brewers that pitching ale yeast
at this high a temp is very bad.  Im sure Pat does something to drop the
temp closer to 70F prior to fermentation, but I didnt want others to
get the idea that this is desirable.  I aim for 60-65F prior to pitching
ale yeast, but it can be a pain with water temps running 80F+ these days.
I use an inline ice water bath at the end of my counterflow to do the final
drop.  Remember that lagers are better at the mid 40s, and all ferments 
generate a considerable amount of heat, so even by pitching at 45F, it is
normal to hit 50F by day 3 or 4.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

Colesville, Md.
"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: 14 Aug 95 09:27:47 EDT
From: Christopher.R.Vyhnal at Dartmouth.EDU (Christopher R. Vyhnal)
Subject: dilution function

in HBD#1807, rich asked about SG calculations.

this is a simple algebra problem.  let's say you have 3 gallons of 1.055 wort
that's been chilled to 60deg.F.  you dilute with 2 gallons water also at
60deg.F.  here's the calculation:

{ (3g*1.055) + (2g*1.000) } / 5g = 1.033

you don't need a complicated "dilution function."  things only get complicated
when the temperature of your wort or dilution water is not at 60deg.F, since SG
is temperature-dependent in a non-linear fashion (i posted awhile back on
this).  i've actually taken the trouble to calculate a linear regression of SG
data for water between its freezing and boiling points, so that i can correct
my SG readings for temperature.  turns out it was alot of effort for little
return:  for worts between about 40 and 80deg.F, the temperature correction for
SG is only +/- 0.002 (hardly worth worrying about).

hope this helps...

chris

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 09:47:11 EDT
From: hadleyse at pweh.com
Subject: PVC manifold in the picnic cooler mash/lauter tun

I'm planning on increasing my batch size to 10 gallons.  My current
lauter setup won't be able to handle this.  I want to convert a 12
gallon picnic cooler into a mash/lauter tun by putting a slotted
manifold in it.  If I use PVC for the manifold will the beer kill me, or
worse, taste like plastic.  Any thoughts on how to remove the red
letters from the PVC tube or the little plastic burrs in the slots in
the manifold?  Thanks in advance.

Scott Hadley

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 10:05:45 -0400
From: "Bob Hall" <bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu>
Subject: Bathtub brewing

> And.....sometimes when I mention to folks that I make my own beer, they reply
> with, "Oh, my grampa did that in the bathtub."  Well what the heck's up with
> that?  I can't imagine that they mashed in the tub (doesn't seem very
> efficient OR simple), and the only use I can see for a tub is as a heat sink.
> Any great explanations for this - or even some folklore?

Perhaps not just folklore. I and a friend have fermented several large batches 
in an old clawfoot tub we put in his basement. They make great open fermenters 
and hold 30 gallons of beer, which is useful when one wants to throw a party. 
Two mashes and two boils on his converted keg system yield about 27 gal of beer.
Pitch a lot of yeast (I use all yeast from a 5 gal batch brewed the week before)
and throw a piece of plastic on top to keep the cat out! 

Bob Hall


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Date: 14 Aug 95 09:59:20 EDT
From: Christopher.R.Vyhnal at Dartmouth.EDU (Christopher R. Vyhnal)
Subject: SG/T correction

in my earlier post this issue, i spoke of my linear regression of SG data for
water versus temperature.  this was an error--the correction is actually a
polynomial expansion.  for those of you who are interested, the equation
correcting the SG of a wort for temperature is:

SG corrected = SG uncorrected
			+ (-0.0020331- (0.000032491* T)
			+ (0.0000011043 * T^2))

chris

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 9:00:25 MDT
From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Mead

I started a honey mead in June.  I recently racked it over to
 another carboy to help clarify it and leave the yeast sediment
 behind. I now have a large airspace between the top of the mead
 and the airlock.  My questions are; Should I add ascorbic acid at
 this point?  Will the mead become oxidized as wine does in this
 situation?  Should I top off the mead with other mead; sterile
 water...? I have referred to several publications on mead 
making and this is not discussed.  Please help!

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Date: 14 Aug 95 07:55:00 -0700
From: KRUSE_NEIL at Tandem.COM
Subject: Quick pitch extract trick

I am an extract brewer.  One of the tricks that I use to get the wort to
pitching temp quickly without the help of chillers or water baths is
this...
On the stove you got your 1.5 gals of extract/wort that has just
finished it's 45 minute boil.

The day before I put 4 gals of water in the fridge. Just before I start
geting ready to boil I put 2 of the gals of water in the freezer.

I dump 1 gal of the half frozen water in the carboy, then I put ice
cubes in the funnel I use to fill the carboy with.  I then pour the wort
into the carboy through the ice cube filled funnel and then do the same
routine with the cold/half frozen water until the carboy is filled.

This allows me to pitch imediately.  Give it a try.

Neil

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 10:46:47 est
From: Joseph.Fleming at gsa.gov
Subject: Xylan?

 Hey all,
 
    Sorry if this message is a dupe...
 
    I just saw some cheap pots, but they were billed as having Xylan, a 
 dishwasher safe non-stick coating.  Anybody know what this is and if its 
 brewery safe?  Is it the 90's version of enameled covered steel/aluminum?
    TIA
 
    Joe - joseph.fleming at gsa.gov


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: H2O2 thread lives!


Rich Larsen declares the H2O2 thread dead.  Au contraire ... 

>In the original smaller flask, I added some fresh wort also, about 50 
>ml, then about 10 ml Hydrogen peroxide.  After 24 hours... DEATH... no 
>activity, just clear wort with a tiny sediment of trub.

How long did you wait for the H2O2 to decompose before pitching?  From 
your description it seems that you didn't wait any time for decomposition.
The whole point of the idea is for O2 to be available for the yeast and 
it won't be until the H2O2 decomposes over some time period.

My original post (HBD 1771, 1 July) that started this thread proposed 
waiting a couple of days for the H2O2 to decompose, and that its antiseptic 
quality would help keep the wort from being infected during this time.  

Also 10 ml H2O2 in 50 ml wort is 1:6 dilution and represents about 3.3  
quarts in a 5 gallon batch!  That's a bit much.  Let me suggest a more 
representative test of a 1:40 dilution (1 pint in 5 gals) and wait 24
hours (sealed flask) before pitching.  

Domenick Venezia
Computer Resources
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com







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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:32:49 -0400
From: JoyflRaven at aol.com
Subject: What type of funnels?

I recently purchased a glass carboy, but have not had the opportunity to use
it yet. When I pour my wort into the carboy, what kind of funnel should I
use? I am worried about getting a plastic funnel, in case I scratch it (i.e.
same problem I had with a plastic bucket), but I'm having a hard time finding
a large enough glass or ceramic funnel.

Does anyone have any recommendations?


Peace,




Erik Deckers
JOYFLRAVEN at AOL.COM

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: AOLers

Participation has been down lately or I wouldn't respond to this, but ...

GeepMaley at aol.com says in 1807:

>The system at AOL doesn't pass info on the authors
>actual name. I, as a user, find this to be a PIA, but I am not the system
>provider. As such, please don't flame us poor souls that don't have e-mail
>account elsewhere (work, play, etc.) for not showing our "real names" in our
>signature 

Apparently AOLers can not type their own names!

Domenick Venezia
Computer Resources
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:51:18 -0500
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Question or IMBR?

I hate to ask yet one more IMBR type question but I need some feedback from
the collective wisdom. Saturday while brewing my variation of a PA, my brew
partner was getting a temp reading on the kettle (don't ask why...he just
likes to and he does the stirring so who am I to argue ;-)) anyway he took
the reading and apparently broke the end off the thermometer. Now the
thermometer I have is a thermometer inside a glass tube. The bottom of the
sealed glass tube has some steel shot and a red looking wax/plastic
substance holding the shot in place. My guess is the shot conducts the
heat/cold to the actual thermometer bulb which appears to be in the center
of the mass of shot/wax. When I checked out the thermometer I noticed that
some of the shot was missing and so was some of the plastic/wax. Now I know
it is in the kettle and in fact when cleaning the kettle after finishing I
noticed some of the shot at the bottom. I always strain my cooled wort
through a fine mesh material on it's way to the carboy. I doubt if any shot
made it into the carboy. So the questions are as follows:
1) What is the red material?
2) Is it toxic?  (Beer in the hydrometer sample tube tasted fine)
3) Do I have a problem?

Beer is fermenting away nicely in the fridge (thanks to all who offered help
with temp controllers). So at the moment I am inclined to not worry and go
about life.

TIA,
Doug
- --------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of       |   Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space' |   IEX Corporation
        Led Zeppelin      |   (214)301-1307
                          |   djones at iex.com
- --------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:53:18 -0500
From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: more chilling times

Dan, Dave, Dion, and Ray all compare chilling times with disbelief.  I 
believe all of you, but I wonder if your're all chilling the same amounts, 
and I'm not just talking about the amounts of wort.

I'm sure you're all chilling five gallons,  but five gallons of what?  A 
very high gravity wort should take longer to cool simply because of the 
increased mass of the solution.  Just think about cooling 5 gallons of honey 
vs. five gallons of distilled water.  Which will cool faster, given the same 
chiller, inlet temperature, water pressure, and flow rate?

Are you all chilling in a keg? When you chill, you chill not only the wort, 
but also the vessel it's held in. I'm *certain* that a CoS pot of 1.040 wort 
will chill much faster than the same wort in my Dortmunder Union keg.  Those 
German kegs are built like tanks, and mass just about as much.  CoS pots are 
lightweights and hardly weigh a couple of pounds.

Just to throw my own two cents in, I've found that suspending my chiller at 
the top of the wort cuts about 20 minutes off of my usual 45 minute chilling 
time.  I simply attached some bare copper wire to the top coils of the 
chiller, and once the water connections are made, lift the chiller up by the 
wire, one twist around the keg carrying handle, do the other side and it's 
suspended at the top.

I also stir occasionally, but I also place my keg on top of  two 4X4's so 
that cooling air can circulate under the keg to provide further cooling.

Cheers,
Chuck
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chuck Wettergreen
chuckmw at mcs.com
Geneva, Il
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:14:53 -0500
From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: more chilling times

Dan, Dave, Dion, and Ray all compare chilling times with disbelief.  I 
believe all of you, but I wonder if your're all chilling the same amounts, 
and I'm not just talking about the amounts of wort.

I'm sure you're all chilling five gallons,  but five gallons of what?  A 
very high gravity wort should take longer to cool simply because of the 
increased mass of the solution.  Just think about cooling 5 gallons of honey 
vs. five gallons of distilled water.  Which will cool faster, given the same 
chiller, inlet temperature, water pressure, and flow rate?

Are you all chilling in a keg? When you chill, you chill not only the wort, 
but also the vessel it's held in. I'm *certain* that a CoS pot of 1.040 wort 
will chill much faster than the same wort in my Dortmunder Union keg.  Those 
German kegs are built like tanks, and mass just about as much.  CoS pots are 
lightweights and hardly weigh a couple of pounds.

Just to throw my own two cents in, I've found that suspending my chiller at 
the top of the wort cuts about 20 minutes off of my usual 45 minute chilling 
time.  I simply attached some bare copper wire to the top coils of the 
chiller, and once the water connections are made, lift the chiller up by the 
wire, one twist around the keg carrying handle, do the other side and it's 
suspended at the top.

I also stir occasionally, but I also place my keg on top of  two 4X4's so 
that cooling air can circulate under the keg to provide further cooling.

Cheers,
Chuck
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chuck Wettergreen
chuckmw at mcs.com
Geneva, Il
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:34:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556" <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: More syphoning help

	Ever searching for "the way" to start siphons, I've got
	a couple of new suggestions.  One that works well and
	avoids contamination issues uses a bellows ala those
	foot pumps (<$15) used to inflate rubber rafts.  Rather
	than doing positive pressure on the "to empty" side,
	and thereby trusting the sanity (!) of the foot pump
	innards, I used a two-hole stopper on the receiving
	carboy, attaching a racking cane and tubing through
	one hole and running into the "to empty" carboy,
	then I held the foot pump's tube on the second stopper
	hole.  Just pump with the foot pump tube on the
	"deflate" side, and the (safely moderate) vacuum will
	begin the transfer.  Pump a few times to get a good
	siphon started, then pull away the pump tubing and
	watch it rip.

	The other method involves having a newborn...and a
	spare breast pump.  Now let's not get bogged down
	in the why/what's here...this little battery-powered
	pump can be used in the about set-up to slowly start
	a siphon.  Its slow but very sure and it does work.
	The model I used, and Evenflo brand, cost $29 at
	your local baby-stuff store (Toys-R-Us in this case),
	and even though it makes a crappy breast pump (says
	my wife and her Lactation Consultant!), it works
	for this.  And for me at least, the price was right
	when it "mom" upgraded pumps for her use:-).

	I though it might help someone who doesn't want
	to just suck...on the homebrew carboy I mean!!!!!!
	I'm not comfortable with the germ potential, even
	if others are.

	Dave in Indy

From: BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")
cc:   BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:44:49 -0400
From: AlBrewer at aol.com
Subject: Mega Craft Breweries


In the August 14th hbd, Stephen Brown reacted to my "who's next" post...

>The only good beer after the year 2000 is going to be homebrew.  Eventually 
>all of the craftbreweries are going to be bought up by the big guys, or be
put 
>out of business by them.  Once there is no competition from other craft
breweries, 
>the big guys will either close the craft breweries or turn them into small
versions of
>themselves.  This whole beer fascination is a phase for most people.

I see it a little differently...I think the megas have seen the light.  I
think craft brewers have made a significant impact on their market, and this
idea of purchasing them up will allow for the craft market to continue - and
the megas share in the profit!  Pretty smart, I think.  Remember, they're not
in it for the beer, they're in it for the dollars.  They'll sell good beer as
long as we'll buy it.

>So remember - we are the few people who will carry the torch, we will be the
>only people with good beer (again - like it was 10 years ago)!

With this I heartily agree.  There's nothing in the world like a homebrew,
and there never will be, and we have been given a solemn responsibility to
carry on the art.  

But still, anybody else care to venture a guess as to who's next?  

Al Brewer

********************************************************

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:34:45 -0400
From: PERSAND at aol.com
Subject: Speciality malts and receipe request

After steeping any speciality malts (Crystal, etc.)  at  150 f for about a half
hour,  I sparge into a 2 quart mason jar and allow to sit for a while until
the 'hot break (?)' has a chance to settle before adding to the boil.  I add
this when the immersion chiller and Irish moss are added.  I feel this gives
the qualities of the malt without adding the 'sludge' from the grains. Might
be a very minor improvement but anything will help. 
Any comments (or flames) will be appreciated!!

Does anyone know of a extract clone of Dos Equis? E-mail is okay or post

Thanks,
Paul Rybak
Brewing in Morris, IL  since 1990


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 15:42:33 -0700
From: rider at pullman.com (Bill Johns)
Subject: H2O2 and Ice


>From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
>Subject: Yeast & H2O2
>
>Well, I knew better... but I figured I'd try it.

The very best attitude.

>After all the talk about H2O2 as an oxygen source, I knew better, but
>what the heck.

(Disclaimer here.  I know stunning little about home brewing, I'm only on
my 5th batch.  I've worked with H2O2 for years.  Sorry, but I dropped this
list for a vacation and missed all the action on this thread.

>I took a yeast starter, transferred the living yeast to a larger flash
>and added some fresh wort.  In the original smaller flask, I added some
>fresh wort also, about 50 ml, then about 10 ml Hydrogen peroxide.

EGADS!!  H2O2 is a hellishly strong oxidizer.  It'll kill everything in the pot.

>After 24 hours... DEATH... no activity, just clear wort with a tiny
>sediment of trub.

Yep, just as I figured.  You didn't use it right.

>I knew that would happen... but just had to prove it.  H2O2 is NOT a
>source of oxygen.

Oh yes it is.  Gotta use it right.

>The only reason I did this experiment was somewhere in the back of my
>head told me that *Maybe* the H2O2 will break down

Ah, but it will.  H2O2 is remarkably stable (considering) when in contact
with glass and HDPE and other simple polymers.  It decomposes to H2O and O2
and heat when in the presence of metals (most all metals except pure
aluminum).  Good catalysts for breakdown are tin (Sn) and silver (Ag).
Steel as in stainless steel should also work.  It doesn't take too long.
Actually it's quite fast.  Early space craft used 99% H2O2 as an attitude
control fuel.  Folks would squirt it out little aluminum nozzles that had
(I believe) a silver screen.  On hitting the screen the peroxide would
immediately break down to a very large volume of gas.  Had the virtue of
being very controllable.  A Good Thing (tm) when trying to dock 150 miles
up.

Other considerations.  In addition to sterilizing the wort, H2O2 will also
provide an oxidizing action for anything else in the wort.  Now lessee,
lots of sugars, lots of complex organics, a significant mineral fraction.
Lots of opportunities for all sorts of neat reactions.

As long as you're in the experimental mode, redo your experiment.  First
get about the same volume of water you will use for your wart volume and
add some  H2O2.  Find a metal you can stir with that will cause the
decomposition of the peroxide.  A stainless steel spoon or silver chain
should work.  Just watch for bubbles.  Then redo the experiment, this time,
add the H2O2 to the wort and stir with the metal thing you just determined
will work.  When the bubbling stops, you've probably decomposed all the
H2O2 and can safely add the yeasties.

An advantage might be the sterilizing of the wort of anything you don't
want in there before you add the good guys.

Make sure you clean your friend's silver chain before returning it.

>and enough yeast will survive to grow.

Yep, that's my guess.  Possibly grow with vigor.

>I also wanted to put an end to this thread.  I declare this thread DEAD.

I declare this thread Phoenix.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

*******************

And now a question of my own.  I don't have a chiller coil.  I've been
tossing about 1.5-2 gallons of ice into the primary just before adding the
wort out of the boiling pot.  Is there any reason that I should _not_ do
this?  It >is< quick.  I see a layer of crud (new technical word) on the
bottom and wonder if I am not precipitating something out of solution.

Ride Free, drink homebrew,

Bill Johns

- --------------------------------------------------------------

sometimes rider at pullman.com
sometimes w_johns at wsu.edu

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:56:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman at sdcc3.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Dilution Function / H2O2

Rich Larsen says:
>I was thinking about a constant that I could apply to my specific gravity
>reading to adjust for dilution when adding water.


Try this (pardon the loose nomenclature):


[Points final] = [Points initial] * (Initial Volume)
		 -----------------------------------
			(Final Volume)



[Points initial] in the form of (SG - 1)*1000
			e.g. SG of 1.046 = 46 Points

(Initial Volume) is volume before dilution, (Final Vol.) is after

So, assuming you have a 5 gal. mark on your fermenter.  If you add your 
wort (SG = 1.060) to the fermenter, and it requires 1 gallon of water to 
top up to 5 gal, then you have the following:
[Points initial] = 60 ; (Initial volume) = 4 ; (Final volume) = 5

[Points final] = 60*4/5 = 48  or  SG of 1.048


- --------------------------------

Rich also says about the H2O2 thread:
>I also wanted to put an end to this thread.


Sorry, I can't help it, I have to throw in my ideas for an experiment 
as well.


>I took a yeast starter, transferred the living yeast to a larger flash
>and added some fresh wort.  In the original smaller flask, I added some
>fresh wort also, about 50 ml, then about 10 ml Hydrogen peroxide.

>After 24 hours... DEATH... no activity, just clear wort with a tiny
>sediment of trub.

>I knew that would happen... but just had to prove it.  H2O2 is NOT a
>source of oxygen.


This is an incorrect conclusion.  What you have shown is that adding 
H2O2, as you did, appears to kill the yeast.  Even this statement may not 
be true, since you don't mention a control flask, treated the same way, 
to which you added water instead of H2O2.

A better way to use H2O2 as an oxygenator, would be to add it to the 
wort, then pitch the yeast once the environment is safe for yeast growth 
(however long after H2O2 treatment that may be).

A simple experiment to test this would be to split the wort into 3 
fermenters.  Aerate one normally, add H2O2 to one, and don't aerate the 
other one at all.  Pitch EXACTLY the same amount of yeast (from the same 
starter) to each.  Determine the final gravity of each culture and how 
long it takes for each culture to reach that FG.  Be sure to keep all 
conditions besides aeration the same (fermenter type, temperature, 
etc.).  An initial experiment may need to be done to find out how long the 
wort needs to sit after adding H2O2, before pitching.  This can be 
done on a smaller scale, like Rich's previous experiment (don't forget 
the controls ;-) ).  This would also be an interesting way to see the 
effects the H2O2 treatment may have on the flavor of the beer.

Anyone up for doing something like this?  Any other ideas?

Dan Sherman
San Diego, CA
dsherman at ucsd.edu


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:22:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: Mash-out and extract efficiency

I haven't been paying as close attention as I should lately, so I'm not 
sure it this has been covered in great detail earlier.  In any event, 
I've had a small victory that I thought I'd share...

I have been all-graining for about a year and at first did not mash-out 
(raise the temp of the grains to 170 or 175 before sparge), mostly 
because I didn't want to be bothered with the extra step and extra 
calculations.  Since acquiring Suds, however, I have been mashing out and 
have been shocked by the increased extract efficiency:  originally I set 
the program to 73% efficiency, but with mash-out have had to boost it to 
85% to keep accurate.  For those who prefer the points/pound/gallon, this 
was the difference between about 24 p/lb./g and 29 p/lb./g.  Excellent!

Have even brewed the same beers (same water, grains, mash temps, etc.) and 
found this result.  Now, while I won't promise anyone this kind of an 
improvement, it seems that mashing-out can certainly be correlated with a 
higher (if not much higher) extraction efficiency.


 -John

(through sprmario at netcom.com)

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 22:00:59 -0400
From: joep at informix.com (Brandon's Daddy)
Subject: Newbie question on B-Brite

Terry,

 Terry> Sorry if this is a naive question, I'm currently sitting on my
 Terry> third batch.  I've been reading HBD submissions lately regarding
 Terry> B-Brite.  My (newbie) book says I should use Clorox & Water to
 Terry> sterilize & clean my equipment.  Is B-Brite better, worse,
 Terry> cheaper, more-expensive?

I've used B-brite and chlorox.  I prefer the B-brite for the simple
reason that chlorox (or simple bleach) dries my hands and the smell
stays with me for a day or two.  I have not had any problems with the
b-brite and, IMHO, the cost is insignificant.

 Terry> Thanks in advance, Terry Mullins


joe.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Joe Pearl, Sr. Sales Engineer, Informix Software, Inc.                      |
| 8675 Hidden River Parkway, Tampa, FL, 33637 813-615-0616                    |
| Opinions expressed are solely my own.                                       |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| You'll always find a tool in the last place you look. COROLLARY TO MURPHY'S |
| LAW                                                                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: 14 Aug 1995 21:46:21 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: hops


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  hops
Date: 1995-08-14 17:09
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chris Strickland asks when it's time to pick hops... my hops are in
mississippi, on the gulf coast. the cascade is doing well. the saaz and
hallertau died last year - i reasoned it was too hot for them. i wait until
the edges of the flowers begin to turn brown. the flowers have a much drier,
papery feel at that stage. the lupulin glands at the base of the flower
petals turns a dark yellow, the color of the highway centerline. i have
found that flowers on the same vine age at about the same pace, so if you
are finding a few turning brown it may be time to pick others from that same
vine. i'm getting much better aroma and bittering than i did last year when
i tried to pick them when they were still quite green.

Randy Erickson asks about how often to clean keg lines and other general keg
stuff... i use boiling water to sanitize the keg. i add a gallon of water,
close the keg, then swish it around, stand it on its head, side and feet
until i think it's ready (say 15 minutes). then i pour some through the beer
line to rinse and sanitize it. this may not be the most effective method,
however, judging from the liddil/palmer article in zymurgy - boiling water
may not be hot enough! and i'm told the o-rings may age prematurely. fwiw.

this keg cleaning issue, along with my recent experience with two supposedly
bacteria-infected batches, has me wondering about the mechanism for bacteria
infection. it seems that there is always bacteria in every batch since it's
impossible to sterilize our environment. i've been led to believe that as
long as the yeast get a good foothold the bacteria don't have a chance. if
that's true, then why worry about keg sanitation since the ferment is over
(as long as it's clean enough not to impart any unintended flavors). and my
experience with the second problem batch is that it had a very clean taste
with no visible problems at racking to the secondary, but began to develop a
white deposit at the surface of the liquid in the secondary. can anyone
enlighten me on the kinetics and behavior of bacteria infection?

wawa, brewing contraband in mississippi


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1808, 08/15/95