FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: causing a stir . . . (PatrickM50)
  Re : More Heat Exchanging/Bathtub Brews (Lev K. Desmarais)
  Re: Sanitizers, beer-sitting (PatrickM50)
  antique capper in need of "cap-scruncher" (Eric Palmer)
  "partial mash kits" and "specialty grain extracts" (Victor Hugo)
  Kegging Info (Randy Erickson)
  vibrating yeast / foam and kegs (Rob Lauriston)
  Dilution Function (Rich Larsen)
  Yeast & H2O2 (Rich Larsen)
  Secondary fermentation (Rolland Everitt)
  Big Fish (Stephbrown)
  AOL name flames/Weizenbock recipe wanted/Mini keg carbonation (GeepMaley)
  More heat exchanging (Dan Sherman)
  Hops (Chris Strickland)
  Denver brewpubs (larry.carden)
  large size crown caps? (Rob Lauriston)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 10:34:12 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: causing a stir . . .

In a message dated 95-08-11 Dion writes:

>Due to some replies I have gotten personally on this subject, maybe a
>good plan would be for people with experiences similar to Doc's
>(i.e. short chilling times without stirring) to submit temperature
>readings of their input water.

Well, my experience is not like Doc's (I stir) but here are my data points
anyway:
Winter Brewing - 
Ground water temp = approx. 55 deg. F
Time to cool wort to 80 deg. F  using 25'x 3/8" copper tubing immersion
chiller = 
   approx 20-25 minutes, depending on how often I stir using the chiller
itself as the stirring implement.

Non-Winter Brewing - 
Ground water temp = approx. 70 deg. F
Time to cool wort to 80 deg. F  using 25'x 3/8" copper tubing immersion
chiller = 
   approx 30-35 minutes, again depending on how often I stir using the
chiller itself as the stirring implement.

Time to cool wort to 80 deg. F WITHOUT stirring = oh, I dunno, maybe 3 or 4
days ;-)

Then Roland asks: <<I am wondering about the best temperature at which to
store
newly-bottled brew.>>

I usually let my newly filled bottles sit in the same area where the brew
(ale) was fermented at about 68 deg. F for two weeks or so to allow the yeast
to work on the priming sugar.  Then I move them to a dark interior closet
downstairs which stays in the low 60's for at least a month for conditioning.
 Then I'll move a few bottles into the frig for a few days before opening.
 Works for me.

Pat Maloney

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:56:30 -0500
From: levd at bilbo.pic.net (Lev K. Desmarais)
Subject: Re : More Heat Exchanging/Bathtub Brews

> And.....sometimes when I mention to folks that I make my own beer, they reply
> with, "Oh, my grampa did that in the bathtub."  Well what the heck's up with
> that?  I can't imagine that they mashed in the tub (doesn't seem very
> efficient OR simple), and the only use I can see for a tub is as a heat sink.
> Any great explanations for this - or even some folklore?

  If you were not around while I was boiling the wart, I could see how 
someone might remark that I make beer in my bathtub.  Most of my brewing
activity after I am done boiling the wart occurs in or around my bathtub.

  When I'm done boiling, I cool the wart in a bathtub full of cold water.  
I rack my beer to my primary and secondary fermenters in the bathtub.  I rack
to my bottling bucket in the bathtub, and I bottle in the bathtub.

  Using the bathtub makes it a lot easier to clean up after those minor
spills that often occur when racking and bottling.
=============================================================
Lev K. Desmarais                       e-mail: levd at pic.net
Programmer/Analyst/CEO Guru Programming Inc./Guitar Slinger/
Brewer/Bassist/Harmonica Player/Pianist/Blues Man at Large
- -------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:13:12 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Sanitizers, beer-sitting

In a message dated 95-08-12 Terry writes:

>Sorry if this is a naive question, I'm currently sitting on my third batch. 
>I've been reading HBD submissions lately regarding B-Brite.  My (newbie)
book
>says I should use Clorox & Water to sterilize & clean my equipment.  Is
>B-Brite better, worse, cheaper, more-expensive?

I avoid the B-Brite vs. bleach controversy entirely by using iodophor - no
muss, no fuss, no rinsing, no infections, no worry.  Your local homebrew or
restaurant supply store should carry it. Use 1 - 2 tablespoons per 5 gal.

However, I would not recommend sitting on your homebrew. You wouldn't want
the temp of the carboy to go much higher than 70 deg. F. if it is still
fermenting, and if it is already bottled - well, you shouldn't have to endure
that much pain for a hobby.

Pat Maloney



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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 11:07:42 PDT
From: palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Eric Palmer)
Subject: antique capper in need of "cap-scruncher"

I will be bottling my beer tomorrow and while on the way to an elderly
aunt's home in S.F. to help my cousins empty the place prior to selling, I 
realized I had forgotten to rent a capper Friday night as planned. So,
while rummaging through my aunt's garage, what do I find but a very old and
 somewhat rusty cast iron capper with a rack and pinion crank that probably
saw its first service during prohibition. One problem, however - The gizmo
that fits over the cap to scrunch it on to the bottle is missing. There is
just a threaded shaft about 1/4" long on the end of the shaft.

So, I dragged it home anyway along with some neat turn of the century tools
and other misc. goodies. Cleaned up, it will make a nice decoration if
nothing else.

I know this a long shot, but does anyone have a clue where I might find the
thing that belongs on the end of the shaft? Is there any such thing as
dealers in antique brewing equipment? This thing has "Supreme C" cast into
the frame. Worse case I will sketch out a dimensioned drawing and see if I
can get a local machine shop make something for me for less than a new
capper would cost (not likely). Or, perhaps I can cajole the plant
machinest to do a "G" job for me in exchange for a six-pack of hand crafted
amber ale.

Thanks in advance for any ideas,

Eric

PS: I got home from S.F. in time to rent a capper from my local brew shop,
so bottling will procede as planned.


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 17:47 EDT
From: vic at iglou.com (Victor Hugo)
Subject: "partial mash kits" and "specialty grain extracts"

As a new homebrewer (2nd batch in secondary)  I've been lurking and reading
about all grain brewing (I'm still using extract {but no sugar-all malt ;)}
I recently stopped in the Wine Art/Brewers Art store in INDIANAPOLIS, I
bought my kit from them and they seemed pretty knowledgeable (sp? &
disclaimer), the proprieter tried to sell me on a "partial mash kit".  His
explinations of the kit said it inclued the ground grains and all other
essentials.  I asked if it needed to be boiled (I don't have a huge brew
kettle at this time) and he said it didn't need a heavy boil and it only
needed a lite sparge (his words where "hot rinse").

My questions:  Whats up with that?  It doesn't seem like it would work to
this novice!
Does anyone have any experience with this type of kit?


In addition this store had specialty grain extracts (crystal, wheat, etc)
imported from australia.  Has anyone had any experience with these extracts.


Thanx is advance

Vic Hugo




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Date: 12 Aug 95 17:56:13 EDT
From: Randy Erickson <74763.2312 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Kegging Info

Greetings, All:

I just received my kegging setup last week, and like most everyone I imagine,
wonder why I ever waited so long.  From Wyeast smack-pack to mug in less than a
week -- what a concept!

I got most of my ideas/instruction from the recent Zymurgy kegging article and
Alan Richer's Getting Started Guide from the Stanford FTP site (Thanks Alan!)
but I still have a few questions.  Like how often and how to clean the beer
tubing, whether to leave the CO2 tank connected and in the fridge, how to get at
the poppet valves inside the tank fittings, tracing and correcting leaks,
dispensing tips, etc.

Can anyone point me toward any other kegging info or FAQs available on the 'net?
Any thoughts on the best prices for used ball lock kegs around Central
California?

Thanks,

Randy Erickson
Modesto, California


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 15:39:32 -0700
From: robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: vibrating yeast / foam and kegs

Keith <xkchristian at fullerton.edu> wrote

>The last few batches I have placed my Wyeast packs on or near my air
pump which is hooked up to my fish tank.  I have noticed that they swell up
faster. ...
>  What do you think about the idea that the vibration is aiding in getting
the yeasties going?

I think that could do it.  One brewery where I worked did 'Quick
Fermentations', putting wort in an Ehrlenmeyer flask with yeast and a stir
bar on the stirrer (a plastic coated metal bar in the flask made to twirl by
the magnetic drive in the base).  The fermentation would be complete in
twelve hours.  The yeast was obviously quite stimulated!

Perhaps it is also warm near your yeast packs?

 -o-o-o-o-o-o-

Dick Hinkle <dick.hinkle at manhattan.com> wrote about  Foam and kegs

>... how  to prevent too much foam from coming out of a keg set up.  
>...  Are we looking to reduce the Reynolds  Number to the point we have
laminar vs turbulant flow of the beer?

When the beer gets into the glass, it will start to decarbonate because it
is no longer at equilibrium (lower pressure and probably an environment in
which it is warming up).  You avoid foaming while dispensing by reducing all
the other factors which would tend to decarbonate the beer.  

1) Open the tap handle all the way.  This is sort of counter-intuitive
'cause it seems that  opening it just a crack would give a slower gentler
dispense.  However, if the handle isn't open fully, the obstruction at the
tap and all the turbulence there causes degassing and foaming.

2) Use a sedate pouring speed.  If the tap is moveable (attached to a length
of flexible hose as opposed to mounted on a bar) try lifting the tap and
glass to a few feet above the top of the keg, or as close to that as you can
get when you pour.   If the beer is still squirting out too quickly and
foaming, you might have to reduce your keg pressure to slow the flow,
perhaps even below the pressure you need to maintain the carbonation, but
you can put the pressure back on later.  

3) You are, of course, pouring the beer gently down the side of a tilted
glass.  Wetting the glass with cold water also helps to reduce foaming.

When all else fails, 

4) Slurp up the foam rudely while dispensing.  Pig manners suggest using a
straw when pouring for others.

So what's the Reynolds Number?  Hello, Debbie, can I borrow some foil?
 Rob Lauriston, The Low Overhead Brewery             <robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca>
 "Moderation in all things, especially moderation"    Vernon, British Columbia 
 


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:58:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
Subject: Dilution Function

I was playing around with some numbers today and came across an 
interesting occurance.

I was thinking about a constant that I could apply to my specific gravity 
reading to adjust for dilution when adding water.

What I came across was an interesting thing.  When adding simple sugars 
to the wort the SG responds in a linear fasion, but when adding water to 
dilute the wort, thus lowering the SG, it responds parabolicly, almost an 
inverse square.  So I ask the more mathmatically inclined, what is this 
constant function?

Some data points, start with one gallon of water and add one pound simple 
sugar (from BRF), yields a SG of 1.046, then dilute with one gallon of 
water, repeat, the data is:

1.046  1.023  1.015  1.012  1.009  1.008  1.007
1 gal  2 gal  3 gal  4 gal  5 gal  6 gal  7 gal

If we had this function, it would be unnecesary to take a sample from the 
fermenter after topping off.  All one would need to know would be the 
gravity of the wort as it goes into the fermenter and how much top off 
water is added.

=> Rich  (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org)
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
    "Spice is the variety of life." ... Me
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:59:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
Subject: Yeast & H2O2



- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:49:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
To: Homebrew Digest <homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Yeast & H2O2

Well, I knew better... but I figured I'd try it.

After all the talk about H2O2 as an oxygen source, I knew better, but 
what the heck.

I took a yeast starter, transferred the living yeast to a larger flash 
and added some fresh wort.  In the original smaller flask, I added some 
fresh wort also, about 50 ml, then about 10 ml Hydrogen peroxide.

After 24 hours... DEATH... no activity, just clear wort with a tiny 
sediment of trub.

I knew that would happen... but just had to prove it.  H2O2 is NOT a 
source of oxygen.

The only reason I did this experiment was somewhere in the back of my 
head told me that *Maybe* the H2O2 will break down and enough yeast will 
survive to grow.  I also wanted to put an end to this thread.  I declare 
this thread DEAD.

=> Rich  (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org)
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
    "Spice is the variety of life." ... Me
________________________________________________________________________



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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:53:59 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Secondary fermentation



First, let me express my thanks to all the people who have taken
the time to send me responses to my several naive questions 
since I joined this list.  You all have been a big help.  And now
on to the next naive question.

I have my second batch in secondary fermentation now.  It's an
all-grain Bass ale clone from Cat's Meow (P. 1-20).  I used
Burton salts in the (distilled) water, and EDME dry ale yeast.
Primary fermentation was vigorous.  Five hours after pitching
the yeast (70 F.  O.G.=1.060), I had 2-3 inches of foam, followed
the next day by a rocky head.  Two days after pitching, fermenta-
tion had slowed, and S.G. was 1.022.  The krausen had sunk into
the wort.  I racked to my secondary fermenter, a glass carboy.

A day later, activity seems to have about ceased (no bubbling in
the fermentation lock, no bubbles on surface of liquid).  My
carboy was carefully sanitized and rinsed, and I doubt if any-
thing could have killed the yeast.

I had a similar experience with my first batch (a pale ale,
different yeast).  That batch is in bottles now, and after ten
days at 70 F., is still undercarbonated (I will wait another 
week or so before passing judgement on it).  I had to taste 
some - it's fairly flat, but tasty!

Do ale yeasts ferment this fast at 70 F.?  Is 2-3 days for the
beer to ferment and begin to clear unheard-of?  Is it too 
soon to bottle?  Will Ross Perot run again?


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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 12:08:26 -0400
From: Stephbrown at aol.com
Subject: Big Fish

Al says:
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 14:30:31 -0400
From: AlBrewer at aol.com
Subject: Who's Next??

It began with Budweiser picking up Redhook.  Then Miller picked up Celis. And
the rumor is that those two megas will own (okay, *plan* to own) 75% of the
craft brew market by the year 2000.  

Has anybody heard who could be next?  Anyone care to venture a guess?  Bets?

Al
- ----------------------------------------------

Based on this observation, here is my theory:  The only good beer after the
year 2000 is going to be homebrew.  Eventually all of the craftbreweries are
going to be bought up by the big guys, or be put out of business by them.
 Once there is no competition from other craft breweries, the big guys will
either close the craft breweries or turn them into small versions of
themselves.  This whole beer fascination is a phase for most people.

So remember - we are the few people who will carry the torch, we will be the
only people with good beer (again - like it was 10 years ago)!

Life's short, Brew hard.

Stephen Brown

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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 12:18:10 -0400
From: GeepMaley at aol.com
Subject: AOL name flames/Weizenbock recipe wanted/Mini keg carbonation

Greetings fellow homebrewers...........

Regarding the flames directed toward email users at America On-line
(aol.com)..............The system at AOL doesn't pass info on the authors
actual name. I, as a user, find this to be a PIA, but I am not the system
provider. As such, please don't flame us poor souls that don't have e-mail
account elsewhere (work, play, etc.) for not showing our "real names" in our
signature 

Now that that's all cleared up, back to brewing.

I am looking for a recipe (extract or partial mash) for a Weizenbock. Any
help would be appreciated.

Also, I have been using the 5L mini kegs sicne March and seem to have a
problem with foam generation vs. carbonation. In those batched where I use
the standard 3/4c priming sugar, the beer seems to be nicely carbonated, but
foam like crazy coming out of the keg (regardless of whether it's the
initial, no CO2 added, pour, or the later pours). When I switched to 1/2c (as
I've seen recommended in various places in the past), I get an
undercarbonated, yet drinkable, beer with no head. Any suggestions????

Geep


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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 16:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman at sdcc3.ucsd.edu>
Subject: More heat exchanging

Doc, Dion, Ray, and others have commented about time to chill wort, using 
an immersion chiller.

Remember that the cooling time is related to the temperature of the 
cooling water (I won't even try to remember the formulas).

Here's Dion's example:
>The first drop to about 90F happens in the first 20 min or so, but the 
>last drop to 75F takes the rest of the over an hour.

Dion and I use the same water -- this time of year, the San Diego tap 
water runs at about 75F or so, which is the reason that the temperature 
drop between 90F and 75F is slow.  It is cooler in the winter, and I have 
noticed that my wort cools much faster (the difference in the ambient air 
temperature is not significant ;-) ).
  
My solution is to use a pre-chiller to bring the temperature of the 
cooling water down.  I have a small immersion chiller, made out of 10' of 
spare 3/8" copper tubing and connect it between the tap and the wort 
chiller.  I cool the wort to about 100F and then immerse the pre-chiller 
in a bucket of ice-water.  This brings the temperature of the cooling 
water down considerably.  btw, I stir by shaking the chiller(s) around.

Cheers!

Dan Sherman
San Diego, CA
dsherman at ucsd.edu

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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 20:37:30 -0400
From: cstrick at iu.net (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Hops

I've actually got hops growing here in Florida!  I started them last year in 
the middle of my yard.  They did poorly, first year so I didn't worry.  This 
year they started, but then died off.  I dug 'em up and put 'em in pots on 
the east side of my shed.  Boy did they take off, I guess in Florida they do 
better with the morning sun only.

My questions:

1)  How big should the hops bud be?  I've many buds growing right now.

2)  How do I know when they're ready to picks?
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick at iu.net


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Date: 13 Aug 95 20:31:00 -0500
From: larry.carden at pscmail.ps.net
Subject: Denver brewpubs

>Date: 09 Aug 1995 14:45:14 GMT
>From: "THOMAS STOLFI" <OBCTS at CWEMAIL.ceco.com>
>Subject: Colorado Pub/Micro's
>
>
>    Hello All:
>
>    I will be attending a seminar in Denver next month and will have a few
>    extra days to hit some Micro/Brewpubs.  If anyone has any info on
>    places to go in the Denver/Colorado Springs/Fort Collins/Boulder area
>    please send me private email at  OBCTS at CWEMAIL.CECO.COM.  Thanks in
>    advance.
>
>    Tom Stolfi
>    OBCTS at CWEMAIL.CECO.COM


Tom,

I can't reach you through your given email address.  But anyway, Denver is 
a good place to have a seminar.  Try the new Denver Chophouse & Brewery at 
Wynkoop and 19th St, for a dinner of Lobster Pot Pie, and a few of their 
brews.  Good atmosphere there (a bit upscale from a typical pub), and the 
food and beer is good, as well as the people-watching.  Be warned however, 
that on a weekend night, or the night of a baseball game at Coors Stadium, 
1 block away, the waiting list for dinner can be two hours or longer.  Try 
a beer or two in the bar area, and maybe an appetizer, if you want to skip 
having dinner there.

Down Wynkoop from the Chophouse (away from the stadium), you *have* to stop
in for a beer or two at The Wynkoop ("the place that started it all in
Denver").  Go upstairs to watch or join people playing on the *numerous*
pool tables.  Have a "Little Red Raspberry" ale if it's available on the
menu at the time.

The stadium itself has some microbrew offerings, and also scattered
"international beer" stands.  Great place to watch a game, or just enjoy
yourself if you're not a fervent baseball watcher.  There is an on-premise
brewpub called the Sandlot.  You can enter from the street outside, or from
inside the stadium.  You can also take the beers you order back into the
stadium, up until the 7th inning.  A lot of beers I've had there have the
same noticeable diacetyl (buttery) note, so you might prefer the guest beer 
on tap.

Local microbrews are on tap at many of the pubs and restaurants around
town.  The ones you must try to have are:  anything from Tabernash (good
German-style weizens and lagers), 90 Shilling from O'Dell's, Laughing Lab
Scottish Ale.  Just about anything from New Belgium brewing is good, too,
although I am not as keen on Fat Tire (red ale) as the general public seems
to be.  Also look for Irons Chocolate Brown ("Dark Iron") and Vail Pale Ale
(a hoppy I.P.A.).  Avery Brewing makes good beers, especially "Out of
Bounds Stout" (a gold medal winner).

I don't know if it's worth the trip to Fort Collins.  Boulder is an
interesting place to visit, and closer to Denver, plus it has a lot of good 
pubs and bars.  If you go to Colorado Springs, stop at Bristol Brewing and 
Phantom Canyon Brewing.  Look for a free newspaper called "Rocky Mountain 
Brews" for other ideas.  They recently reported on a place called Sharkey's 
in Colo. Springs that is a combination brew-on-premises, brewpub and 
microbrewery in one building.

Below I have attached an article from the Web that might give you other
ideas, although I don't highly recommend the places mentioned in there that
I haven't mentioned above.  Rock Bottom Brewery is a good place for food
and people-watching.

The Celebrator Beer News on the Internet had a good article on Denver-area 
brewpubs in an issue last year.

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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 20:31:27 -0700
From: robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: large size crown caps?

Dear collective, comrades and co-defendants:

Does anyone know a source for the larger size crown caps that we sometimes
see on Belgian bottles (on top of the cork, even)?  And a capper to use with
them?

My Italian-made capper came with a pamphlet that said that it could be
adapted for the larger caps, but the vendor didn't know anything about it
and that was many years and miles away.  I have a bunch of the green
Liefmans/Mort Subite/Lindemans etc. bottles with the punt on the bottom and
have used them with corks, but crowns would be more convenient.  Sort of
cool for beers of appropriate lineage.

The homebrew stores here don't even carry grain ("why do you want to spend
all day doing what you can do in an hour?") so I don't have any local source.

TIA, Rob



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1807, 08/14/95