FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  LP Burners (blacksab)
  replacement spigot for round, 10 gallon coolers (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  Honey Wheat Recipies (Tom Neary)
  2 old HBD articles (BF3B8RL)
  Air stone in the kettle ("Keith Royster")
  Re-  RTP Yeasts ("Allan Rubinoff")
  More Chilling Data/Trub Removal (Tim Laatsch)
  Alt, Kolsh, and Barleywine (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
  Mash Jacket... ("Bessette, Bob")
  Re: 1 1/2" false bottom (hollen)
  Freshness Peaks in Beer (Steven W. Schultz )
  Thread21 / cats_meow 3 (gravels)
  Graf Style Vienna Recepit Request (Ken Schroeder)
  Re[2]: water filter suggestions? ("Colgan, Brian P.")
  Brewing in the Middle East (Chris Eykamp)
  Re: Finishing Hops and Wort Chilling (Jay Reeves)
  re: counter pressure bottling foam/RTP Yeast in SF Bay Area? ("Robert Marshall")
  using lactic acid (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
  Filtering out hops, break (David Mercer)
  mango beer (Alan P. Van Dyke)
  Bad French for "Eight". (Russell Mast)
  Yeast starters, hop back and big pots (Christopher P. Weirup)
  Schneider Weisse (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  Celis Brewery tour info (David M. Muzidal)
  All-Wheat Beer Response (Steve Alexander)
  Thermometer/burner (HomeBrewer)
  Burners and Conversion/Keeping cool (Brian Pickerill)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 02:27:22 -0500
From: blacksab at siu.edu
Subject: LP Burners

Yet another question for the collected wisdom of HBD: I just got a BRINKMANN
Country Cooker Outdoor Gas Cooker/Fryer and after a first failed test, I
finally got 6-gallons of water to boil after 1-hour. This seems a little
long to me. Here's my setup:

 -15-gallon budwiser keg as boiling kettle

 -Heavy angle-iron stand to hold keg

 -tapped into LP line in the house--1/2-inch OD copper into 5/8-inch OD main
line.

 -make-shift burner assembly

Since a keg will not fit directly on a Country Cooker, I initially set the
cooker under the angle-iron stand, but the flame was too low, and I gave up
after 1-hour with water temp. at only 180-deg. I tore the cooker apart and
made a new stand that raises the flame so it conforms to the bottom of the
keg, but not so high that excessive CO is produced. Now, full boil in
exactly 1-hour.

Any way to make THIS cooker work better (what's going to happen when I move
up to 10-gallon batches)? What about unscrewing the burner from the
carburator(?) and installing a commercial stove burner or a wok burner? 

Any ideas? TIA,

                        --Harlan Bauer


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:01:07 -0400
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: replacement spigot for round, 10 gallon coolers


I have jest received a round, 10 Gal Igloo cooler which I 
want to modify to be a mash/lauter tun.  I am looking
for a source to find a replacement for the push-button
spigot that comes with it. Anyone have any advice?

Thnaks in advance

ChuckM


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:12:52 -0400
From: tom.neary at peri.com (Tom Neary)
Subject: Honey Wheat Recipies



For my second homebrew batch I would love to make a honey wheat ala Pete's.

Does anybody have any good recipies for a honey wheat brew?



thanks in advance,

Tom N.

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:09:28 -0400
From: BF3B8RL at TPLANCH.BELL-ATL.COM
Subject: 2 old HBD articles

Glad to see HBD is back in action.  Here's two comments that have been awaiting
the HBD return:

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I've been watching the debate on high (~80F) pitching temps and I have this
question for those advocating low (~65-70F) pitching temps.

In many of my recent brews, I have pitched in the 75-80 degree range, and kept
the fermenter at about 75F until the yeast was quite active (usually not more
than 24hrs).  Then I have moved the fermenter to the basement or frige,
whichever was appropriate for the particular yeast strain.  The main reason for
doing this "temperature shuffle" was that I was experiencing long lag times from
pitch to activity (36hrs or more) if I pitched lower than 70F.  I seem to be
aerating sufficiently (I get complete fermentations) and am pitching about 10oz
of yeast+starter for a 5 gallon batch.  So my move to higher pitching temps was
to shorten the lag time and prevent the beasties from getting a hold in my beer
while the yeast geared up for production.

My question is this:  am I doing any "high temperature harm" to my beer by
keeping it warm through the respiration stage of the yeast?  I have not
experienced any major ester or fusel problems with my beer, but haven't won any
awards either.  Am I simply not providing enough pitching yeast?

TIA,

Chas Peterson


 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Recently I too brewed a fruit (strawberry) beer that came out amazingly low ---
0.999! I'm not sure what caused such a low result -- perhaps the additional
water in the berries or the pectic enzyme I added to the secondary fermenter
contributed to the low FG.  To help things out, I decided to add 2/3 cup of
lactose at bottling.

Now, about four months after aging, the beer is a tremendous hit, and I'm not
missing the body at all.  Sure, its a little on the thin side, but for most
fruit beers, this is A Good Thing (TM). The strawberry flavor really shines
through, yet you know its beer (not soda or wine cooler...).  And most suprizing
to me -- it has tremendous head retention.  I also used a little polyclar (a
tablespoon?) at bottling, which I think helped make the beer crystal clear.

This beer continues to improve with age.  My advice -- add that lactose or
maltodextrine with a little polyclar and don't worry.  With patience (a few
months at least) your beer will be just fine.

 - Chas Peterson

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Date:          Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:32:34 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       Air stone in the kettle

Keith (XDCHRISTIAN at CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU) asks:

> A few digests back someone mentioned the idea that wiggling the chiller in
> the kettle would possibly help proteins clump together assisting in hot/cold
> break formation.  I would like to know if there is a benefit in dropping an
> air stone into the kettle (after the wort gets around 80F to encourage the
> proteins to drop out of solution and aerate the wort at the same time.  I like

Since the whole point of a rigorous boil (VS a slow boil) is that the
mechanical agitation from the bubbles helps the proteins to flocculate, I
would conclude that aeration in the kettle would also help protein
flocculation (as well as aerate the wort).  Also, if you are brewing 5 or
10 gallons in a converted sankey keg, you have the added benefit of
plenty of headspace to handle all of that foam you will create with an
air stone.  Once you are done aerating, give your hops a few minutes to 
settle back down and create a filter bed for the break material.

+------------------------------+----------------------+
| Keith Royster, E.I.T.        | The mouth of a       |
| Environmental Engineer       | perfectly happy man  |
| NC-DEHNR / Air Quality       | is filled with beer. |
|    (704) 663-1699            |  -Egyption Wisdom,   |
| N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us |          2200 B.C.   |
+------------------------------+----------------------+


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Date: 28 Aug 1995 09:29:25 -0400
From: "Allan Rubinoff" <allan_rubinoff at mathworks.com>
Subject: Re-  RTP Yeasts

In HBD #1815, Jim Grady <grady at hpangrx.an.hp.com> writes:

> I was in "Beer & Wine Hobby" in Woburn, Massachusetts yesterday to pick
> up some liquid yeast.  In addition to the usual Wyeast and Yeast Labs
> yeasts, they had a newcomer (at least to me), RTP (tm).  RTP stands for
> "Ready to Pitch" and claims to be 5 billion cells, enough for a 5 gallon
> batch without a starter.  They claim to have the quality of liquid yeast
> with the convenience of dried yeast.  The yeast comes in a plastic vial
> and the sediment seems less than what I get with a 1 qt starter but also
> looked to be 3 to 5 times that in the Yeast Labs vial.  I left my x-ray
> glasses at home so I could not compare it to the Wyeast package.


I've used RTP American Ale yeast once, with good results.  I bought it
at Barleymalt and Vine, in Newton, MA.  I believe it's produced in
Massachusetts, and may not be available elsewhere.  My understanding is
that the yeast is centrifuged, which is why the volume of yeast is
less than you might expect.

I used this yeast to brew a 10-gallon batch at BM&V's brew-on-premise
facility.  I can't comment on the lag time or other behavior of the
fermentation, because I wasn't there to see it, but the beer turned out
very clean and dry, as you would expect from this yeast strain
(equivalent to Sierra Nevada/Wyeast 1056).

Allan Rubinoff
arubinoff at mathworks.com


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: More Chilling Data/Trub Removal

Hello Collective,

Kudos to Pat Babcock for a more exhaustive chilling experiment.  My data is 
pale in comparison, but here is another chilling data point from Laatsch 
NanoBrewery:

      Chiller Type:   Immersion
      Chiller specs:  25 ft. x 3/8"
      Water temp:     13 C (55 F)
      Flow rate:      about 3 gpm (near max sink output)
      Wort Volume:    5.5 gal
      Wort OG:        1.053
      Stirring:       every 2 minutes
      TEMP Info:      Below 30 C (86 F)  at  T=15 min
                      Reached 21 C (70 F)  at  T=25 min
                      Reached 17 C (63 F)  at  T=35 min
      Conclusions:    Stirring is very effective w/ immersion chiller
                      
To add to the comments on pitching temperature:  I chilled this batch to 63 F 
before pitching for a very specific reason.  Previously, I've only chilled to 
the mid-70s and have noticed detectable fusel alcohol formation, especially 
with yeasts that prefer cooler temperatures.  I recently had a chance to tour 
K'zoo Brewing's new and improved 30 bbl facilities (steam jacketed 
kettle---ooooh!) and the tour guide said that they chill to 60 F to prevent 
fusel and/or ester formation.  If it's good enough for the big boys, it's 
good enough for me.  BTW, after smelling the residual contents of a packet of 
Wyeast 1056, I don't think there remains much question about which yeast 
Bell's is using---I'm just sorry I haven't used it sooner.

Next topic:  Trub removal.  I'm sure there are a million ways to do this, but 
I tried the whirlpool technique and lost about a full gallon of precious wort 
to a slug of trub and pellet hops.  I'm thinking about going to a hop-back by 
lining my Zapap with leaf hops and transferring the wort through it before 
going on to the primary fermenter.  But what about brews that aren't so heavy 
on aroma hops?  And what about sanitizing that wretched piece of equipment?  
(I'm anxious to get my RIMS going).  Any other techniques besides using hop 
bags?  Racking through boiled cheescloth or nylon?  I once tried the 
strain/reboil/rechill approach and it takes FAR TOO LONG.  Any help or 
suggestions are welcome.  

I'll soon be able to report on my improved pale ale recipe---thanks to all 
here who contributed useful suggestions!

Tim

*=============================================================================*
| Timothy P. Laatsch             | email: laatsch at kbs.msu.edu   | Aspiring    |
| Graduate Student-Microbiology  | biz phone: 616-671-2329      | All-Grain   |
| Michigan State University/KBS  | fax:       616-671-2104      | Homebrewer  |
| Kalamazoo, MI (Home of Bell's) | obsession: American Pale Ale | & Scientist |
*=============================================================================*

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:54:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
Subject: Alt, Kolsh, and Barleywine

I'm looking for some good all-grain Alt and Kolsh recipes. Any help would 
be greatly appreciated.

Also, I recently spent a week of vacation trapped in a beach house with a 
quarter keg each of Bud and Coors Light. (How's that for a vacation 
horror story?) This has put me in the mood to brew a Barleywine. 
Requirements (not to be pushy): mostly grain (I have a 32 quart mash 
tun), OG 1100+, ABV 10%+, something like Bigfoot or Old Foghorn. Maybe 
it'll be done by next summer's beach trip...


Thanks!

Jerry Cunningham          |    seen on a T-shirt: "The drinking will 
Annapolis, MD             |    continue until morale improves."


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:18:00 PDT
From: "Bessette, Bob" <bessette at msmailgw.uicc.com>
Subject: Mash Jacket...


Fellow Brewers,
 I received a catalog from William's Brewing in San Leandro, CA just the 
other day and I noticed something called a Mash Jacket which is used to 
cover a plastic pail for mashing with a Phil's Lautertun-like setup. I 
always do infusion mashing and I mash and sparge in the same container (a 6 
gallon white pail). I typically insert this into a cardboard box surrounded 
by sleeping bags, insulated material, etc to maintain my mash temperature. 
This Mash Jacket sounds like a decent solution to the cumbersome setup I am 
using now if it maintains temp like it says it does. Also I typically use a 
6 gallon pail and it appears that maybe this only will fit a 5 gallon pail.

 I would like to know if anyone out there is using one?  Also does it fit a 
6 gallon pail? Also, does it have a hole for the plastic tube that runs from 
inside the pail under the phalse bottom to the outside of the pail to the 
boiling bucket?

I would greatly like to hear from anyone who has used this or has heard of 
someone who uses it. TIA

Bob Bessette
bessette at uicc.com

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:37:03 -0700
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: 1 1/2" false bottom

>>>>> "Matt" == MATTD  <MATTD at UWYO.EDU> writes:

Matt> I've got a 21 gallon stainless steel pot that is 23" in diameter
Matt> with a hole on the bottom near the edge with a 3" threaded pipe
Matt> welded to it.  I've already got a ball valve and the necessary
Matt> reducer but I was wondering about a false bottom.  If I insert a
Matt> sink strainer (with some grinding to make it smaller) into the 1
Matt> 1/2" hole on the bottom will I get a decent extraction
Matt> efficiency or should I go to a larger false bottom that just
Matt> sits over the hole?  Thanks for any advice you can give.

I seriously suggest you pick up the last issue of Brewing Techniques
where this very subject is covered in gory detail.  The abstract is
that a tiny area of false bottom is not as good as a large area, but
the % of difference, I cannot begin to address.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date:     Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:31:13 EDT
From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult at cbdcom.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Freshness Peaks in Beer

	In the spirit of "the only dumb question is the one you don't ask" I
submit the following questions and confessions about freshness/flavor
peaks in beer.

	For the sake of background, I'm an extract/adjunct brewer who
bottles everything, and who keeps the filled bottles in the basement,
where it is in the 60s, year round. 
 
	I am noticing a definite pattern:  my beers often taste very good
after 2-3 weeks in the bottle, but after not much more than 4-5 weeks,
they are in decline. 

	I tried to make a Steam (tm) style beer recently, and both myself
and another person thought it was better than Anchor Steam Beer-- just the
right amount of Northern Brewer hops; you could drink it all night long! 
That was after about 2 1/2 weeks in the bottle.  Now, after a month in the
bottle, the hop profile is noticeably less, and it seems simply to be past
its peak.  Not a bad beer overall, but not what it had been. 

	If this is entirely normal, could I maintain the freshness peak
for a longer period simply by refrigerating the bottles?  Also, might
there be brewing procedures that one could follow to "stretch" the
freshness peak for longer periods?  I'm tired of making good beer, and
then having it turn to mediocre beer in 4-5 weeks time.

Steve Schultz

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:32:01 EST
From: gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Subject: Thread21 / cats_meow 3

Hi all,

Thank God the HBD is back!  The withdrawal from the HBD is worse than
not getting that first cup of coffee in the morning.  Almost. ;^)
Oops, did I revive the religion thread again?!  Please don't hurt me
mister robot.  Back, back I say, Nooo.....

Enough of that, First I've a question about the thread21 program
for DOS users that is loaded at Stanford.  I've been trying to search
the files on my hard drive, but every time I run the program it goes
to the first file and finishes the search.  It doesn't search the
first file, I know because I set up the search parameters for
something in the middle of that file, and it failed to find it.  I
read the READ.ME file and I followed the directions in the program
[they are pretty simple, well, maybe not simple enough ;^)].  If
anyone can give me a hint as to what I'm doing wrong I sure would
appreciate it.

Second, I've seen reference to cats_meow 3 in the HBD several times
and I haven't seen it in the Stanford archives, can anyone tell me
where I can FTP to get a copy?  Is there a cats_meow 4?  I'm internet
impaired, I have FTP, E-mail and I think I have telnet capabilities,
but I don't know how to use it yet, although I am willing to try if
someone points me in the right direction.;^)

Pat Babcock talked about his chiller experiment in HBD 1816, It
sounded like an interesting test.  My only question is, what was your
conclusion?  It sounds like the counterflow chiller got the wort down
to fermentation temps very quickly but didn't create very much
cold break material and the immersion chiller took longer to chill,
but didn't quite reach the desired temp (I solve that with ice
cubes) and created a lot of cold break.  Please correct me if I'm
wrong, (no, really, I want to know ;^)) but, I would guess (can you
say, HBWAG? HomeBrewers Wild Ass Guess) that the immersion chiller is
doing the better job because of the cold break it forms.  Isn't this
what we are looking for?  Thanks.

                                                   Steve

         "Homebrew, it's not just a hobby, It's an adventure!"


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 08:33:13 PDT
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Graf Style Vienna Recepit Request

I am formulating a new recepit for a Graf style Vienna. This is the 
darker version of the Vienna style best represented by Negra Modelo 
and Noche Bueno. I am interested in looking at several recepits so
I may formulate my own approach to this challenging lager style.
I am paticularly interested in grain bills (I'm an all grainer)
and hop schedules. I have researched the Cat's Meow and George Fix's
Vienna Style book and wish to add to this information base. Please
email to kens at lan.nsc.com. If the information receives warrents,
I'll post a summary.

Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing 

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:51:25 EST
From: "Colgan, Brian P." <bcolgan at sungard.com>
Subject: Re[2]: water filter suggestions?

water filters:
I'm in the 'gadget gathering' phase of stepping up to 10 gal 3-tier all-grain 
from 5 gal extract, and I need some recommendations on water filters to remove 
chlorine etc. Any satisfied customers out there? If so, models/prices/phone 
numbers would be greatly appreciated.

Got any Gotts?
Does anyone in the Philadelphia area know where I can pick up a couple 10 gallon
Gott coolers?

Whirlpool Shmirlpool-
I don't get it. I hear from several of you that after cooling the wort using an 
immersion chiller, you start a clockwise whirlpool in it, then let it sit for 15
minutes, at which point all the trub are magically collected in the center of 
the pot. Well, I tried this again, but all I ever get is trub sludge uniformly 
on the bottom of the pot, which then gets siphoned into the primary.  This 
wasn't such a big deal before, but I just tried a brew cap, and now the trub has
clogged the yeast siphon tube.  Any pointers to get this to work next time would
be greatly appreciated, else I'm forced to go with either the 'copper scrubbie 
on the racking cane' or the 'nylon stocking in the carboy' method.  This problem
goes away eventually with my eventual system, due to using a hop back and a 
counterflow chiller, but that may be several batches away!


thanks,

Brian Colgan            "Every one has to believe in something." 
bcolgan at sungard.com     "I believe I'll have another homebrew." 
(610) 527-8896          
Radnor, PA.



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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:08:12 -0700
From: Chris Eykamp <eykampc at metro.or.gov>
Subject:  Brewing in the Middle East

Has anyone done it?

The problem is this: I will be going to live in the Middle East, in a country
where alcohol consumption is frowned upon.  If I can brew while there,
without breaking any laws, I would like to do so.  I am supposing that
most normal brewing supplies (hops, for example) will simply be unavailable.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to brew a drinkable brew using
only "commonly" available ingredients?

Thanks,

Cyl


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Date: 28 Aug 95 11:58:47 EDT
From: Jay Reeves <73362.600 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Finishing Hops and Wort Chilling

In #1815, SoarMoose asked about how hop aroma is affected by
the extended period that the wort sits near boiling temps.

I asked a similar question a few months back and never got
anything really definitive: I wondered how the bitterness, aroma
& flavor were affected after switching to a counterflow chiller
from an immersion chiller.  Obviously, a portion of the wort sits
at high temps longer when using a CFC as opposed to an IC.

The responses I received (2 I think - don't remember who)
basically said it shouldn't affect it enough to matter because the
vigor of the boil is not there - if it does, experiment and adjust
your hopping schedule to get what you want.  One suggested
using a hop-back, but the effect will be different.

I have noticed a slight increase in bitterness levels (all other
variables being the same) after switching to a CFC.  I'm still
experimenting to see when I need to add the flavor/aroma hops.

I had the pleasure of talking with Dave Miller for awhile this
weekend and I posed that question to him.  He said the
extended period of steeping the hops would certainly affect the
bitterness level as well as affecting the flavor and aroma,
regardless if it was boiling or not - it's still at a high enough
temp to isomerize some of the AA, although not as efficiently as
a boil would.  His recommendations echoed what others have
said: experiment -  say for instance, add at 5 min. instead of 10
min. for flavor, add 5 min. after knockout for aroma - experiment
and see what works for your system.

I'm interested to hear how others cope with this.  It would be great
if someone did a controlled test to see how the bitterness levels
are affected.  Me?  I no longer have the immersion chiller - it had
a sex change.

			-Jay Reeves
			Huntsville, Alabama, USA


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Date:          Fri, 25 Aug 1995 09:26:14 -0800
From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm at hooked.net>
Subject:       re: counter pressure bottling foam/RTP Yeast in SF Bay Area?

Cannot help you with the Braukunst prduct since I don't use one, but 
I will repeat something I read elsewhere:

Don't practice on beer!! For heaven and beer's sake, use tap water 
and make yourself some fizzy water for the kids.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all the talk about RTP yeast, I was wondering if anyone around 
the San Francisco Bay Area has seen this for sale at a Brewer's Shop? 
I haven't seen this myself and would be interested in trying this 
since my primary/secondary fermentation times are sooooooo slow.

Thanks in advance,


Robert Marshall
robertjm at hooked.net

homepage: http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm
- ----------------------------------------------
"In Belgium, the magistrate has the dignity
of a prince, but by Bacchus, it is true
that the brewer is king."

          Emile Verhaeren (1855-1916)
          Flemish writer
- ------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:50 EDT
From: CSS2 at OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: using lactic acid

I received some pure (well 88%) lactic acid the other day by mail order and
suddenly realized that I'm really not sure how much or how to use it.
The folks at Home Sweet Homebrew (great store BTW in downtown Philly) said
"Oh, most people just use it to taste" ...whatever that means...
If anyone has some experience using this stuff, I'd be interested in hearing
from you.  Specifically:

* how much?  a teaspoon?  a tablespoon?  an ounce?  no clue....

* when to add?  during boil?  post boil?  at bottling?

any help would be appreciated.  FWIW, I'm trying to make a Flanders Brown and
want the sour, lactic character in it without adding yogurt (not in my beer,
thank you) or doing a sour mash.
TIA
Curt
css2 at oas.psu.edu

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:49:45 -0700
From: dmercer at path.org (David Mercer)
Subject: Filtering out hops, break

I'm a fairly new brewer, although I've already moved on the all-grain. (I
don't see what the big deal is - it's not THAT much more work than extract
brewing... Of course I've only tried simple infusion mashes.)  But there's
one basic I still haven't figured out yet:  How best to filter out the hops
and break when siphoning to a counterflow chiller. I have gone back through
recent RCB and HBD archives (since April) looking for this topic and haven't
found a whole lot except for one thread that included a suggestion to use a
conical metal coffee filter (how would that work?) and another to use hop
bags, which I'd rather not.  You'd think this would be part of a faq or
something.  Papazian just says to carefully strain them out (Hah! That's
easier said than done) or use a hopback.  But unless you've got a fancy,
expensive kettle with a spigot and a false bottom, which I don't, I don't
see how either solution - straining or racking to a hopback - could be done
without introducing a lot of oxidation.  Anyway, I would appreciate some of
this group's collective wisdom on the subject.

I boil in an 8 gallon enamel/steel pot and chill using a counterflow chiller
with a copper siphoning cane.  One suggestion I've heard is sticking a
copper scrubbing pad on the end.  But it seems to me that this would get
clogged pretty quickly.  Here are some other possible solutions I came up
with while mulling this over:

Using the copper tubing with the slits cut in the bottom that I use for
lautering.  My siphoning cane fits nicely in the outflow section of tubing
that connects to the drain in cooler I use for mashing.  Down side:  Even
though there are a lot of slits in the tubes, it seems to me this could get
stuck pretty quickly, what with all the gunk in the kettle.

Using a filter basket from a big coffee percolator, inverting it and
sticking the end of the siphon cane into the hole where the center post of
the percolator would normally go.  Down side: I'd have to keep the basket
pressed firmly against the bottom of the kettle for the entire time it was
siphoning, and hops that wound up under the basket at the beginning could
still clog up the chiller.

Using a 'spice ball' - a softball-sized spherical strainer used to hold
spices for crab boils and the like.  My idea is to just poke a hole in the
sucker and stick the siphon cane all the way in.  Down side: Could get
clogged pretty quickly, I don't know.

I could, of course, try all four of these ideas - scrubber, tubing, coffee
basket, spice ball - and report back on which worked best, but that would
require up to 4 batches of beer and I'd really not reinvent a square wheel.
Anybody tried any of these, or have other suggestions?  

TIA

Dave Mercer


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:50:16 -0500
From: alan at mail.utexas.edu (Alan P. Van Dyke)
Subject: mango beer

Howdy!

A while back, I asked for some advice with mangos in beer.  Three intrepid
& brave mead brewers (whose names I've lost; sorry guys!)  responded with
their experiences with mango mead, but I was on my own with the beer.
Here's what happened.

My big warning was that the mango flavor would be, at best, subtle.  Since
I was dividing up a batch of basic wheat beer, I decided to put 1 & 1/2
large mangos chopped into small chunks into a two gallon batch.  I left
this in the secondary for about three weeks, then bottled.  At bottling,
there was a mango aroma, but not much flavor.  The same is true for the end
result; subtle aroma, but no true mango flavor.  But, as I said, this was a
divided batch, so I have a control to work with.  The unflavored wheat beer
is not  fruity tasting like the mango beer, leading me to believe that the
mango flavor actually changed.  If I hadn't been able to make the
comparison, I would've thought that it was the yeast.  Anyway, my
suggestion, to any who care, is to add at least a couple of mangos per
gallon, and see if the flavor hangs on that way.  And if anyone out there
does try this, let me know.  I'm still willing to give this stuff a shot!

 _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
   Alan P. Van Dyke                                           No more bombs!
   Austin, TX, US                                 Boycott French made goods!
   alan at mail.utexas.edu                                Stick to bread, guys.
 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-



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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:26:15 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Bad French for "Eight".


> From: "Calvin Perilloux" <dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com>
> Subject: Uncl: Finings for Wheat?

> And *NO* lemon, at least not around here.

Hear, hear.

> From: Bunning W Maj ACC/DOTE <bunningw at ns.langley.af.mil>
> Subject: Diastatic Power in Wheat and Rye Malt
> 
> Recently I've read several articles concerning whether or not wheat malt has 
> enough enzymes to convert itself.  The latest issue of Brew Your Own 
> (September) has an article with a chart that says wheat malt doesn't have 
> the enzymes necessary to convert it's starch to fermentable sugars and needs 
> the help of barley malt.  However, in the Mar/Apr issue of Brewing 
> Techniques there is an article that discusses making a 100% wheat beer. 
>  They claim the only problem is with sparging, since wheat malt doesn't have 
> any husk.  This problem can be solved by adding rice hulls to the mash.  I 
> noticed in Papazian's HBC that wheat malt has the diastatic power of 2-row 
> barley malt.  A friend of mine and I would like to make a 100% wheat beer. I 
> believe it has the enzymes.   Who do we believe?

I'm not sure how they measure those "enzyme counts".  I can assure you that if
you use 100% wheat malt, you won't convert all the starches to sugar.  That
being said, I've made two batches of FANTASTIC (if I do say so myself, thank
you) wheat beer without a hint of barley.  I just didn't get all the sugar out.
I even did an iodine test last time.  Black.  I didn't care, I had enough 
sugar to brew with and the taste - oh, lovely.  I'm not sure why, but it tastes
much more like authentic wheat beers than ones brewed with recipes more closely
matching the commercial recipes.  

So, go ahead and do it.  Just don't expect 100% conversion.  

> Another couple other related questions.  Does rye malt have enough enzymes 
> to convert itself?  I think it does. 

I think it's weaker than wheat.  I'd use a little barley in there, but, well,
if you don't, I wanna hear about it.

Another thing that mystified the critics was the fact that Jake and I brewed
both of these batches WITHOUT rice hulls or barley or anything for the sparge.
We used DeWolf-Cosyns Wheat Malt both times, and spaced the rollers on the
mill a bit further apart, to just crack the grains open.  They may not have 
husks per se, but the sparge went without a hitch, as easy or easier than most
of my 100% barley-malt sparges.  YMMV, of course.

Happy brewing.  Also - use the pure Weihenstephan Weizen culture for yeast,
and use noble hops in the boil, and no finishing hops.  Yum yum.

 -R

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:29:19 -0500
From: cerevis at mcs.net (Christopher P. Weirup)
Subject: Yeast starters, hop back and big pots

Hello there.  A few of quick, stupid questions.

1. I am relatively new to the use of yeast starters.  So far my experiences
with a starter have been good.  My question is whether or not you need to
add hops to the yeast starter.  I don't really know what the point of hops
in the starter is for.  Can I just omit them?

2. This may sound stupid, but what is a hop back?  I've run wort over fresh
hops prior to racking into my carboy, which I was told was a hopback.  Is a
hop back an actual unit or object, or am I doing a hop back?

2. This question is for those of you in the Chicagoland area.  I have been
trying to find a large (8-10gal.) enamel-on-steel brewpot for quite some
time now.  I live in Chicago with no car (can you believe that?) so I'm a
slave to public transit.  I've checked two K-Marts, a couple of bargain
stores, and some various other stores with no luck.  I know that they are
out there somewhere.  Does anyone know where I can get one of these pots in
Chicago?

Private e-mail is fine.  Thanks in advance

Chris Weirup
cerevis at mcs.net



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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:36:44 -0400
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: Schneider Weisse

Well,   Thought I'd relay an experience...

I was in Munich in May and brought back some Schneider's weiss with
the intent of culturing the yeast. In one of his books Jackson says 
that they bottle with the same yeast that they ferment with and that
it is a dual strain.

First let me say that Schneider's is somewhat different than the 
Spaten/Paulener/Julius Eckhardt weisse that I'm used to.  It is almost
amber in color. Possibly a substantial amount of Munich malt.

Second, I was able to culture the yeast from the bottle dregs. I used it
in a Schneider 'clone' (5 lb wheat, 4 lb klages, 1 lb Munich).

I like the resulting beer although it was a bit off from the real thing. 
The yeast is definitely a weisse yeast but did not give a real strong
clove flavor like I have had from the single strain Wheinstephan weisse yeast.
I have brewed a few times with the first Wyeast 'weisse' strain (the 2
strain..3056?) and I would say that this is similar to the Schneider yeast. 

I do prefer the single strain weisse since it has a stronger clove flavor.

So, these are my observations and based on no facts other than the fact that
I do like weisse bier.

prost

chuckm

ps...has anyone ever had Schlieringer's Roggen (Rye)

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:38:57 -0500
From: David.Muzidal at dssc.slg.eds.com (David M. Muzidal)
Subject: Celis Brewery tour info

A brewpub I frequent in Dallas, TX (Yegua Creek) sponsered yet another
pub crawl to Austin, TX this past weekend.  I was able to go this time,
and it was quite fun (burp)!  They had their 1994 GABF gold medal
winning Sara's Brown Ale along with their Tucker's Golden Wheat and
O'Briens Texas Stout on the bus.  Once in Austin, we hit the brewpubs
(Waterlou, Bitter End, Copper Tank), the Gingerman (over 100 beers) and
the Celis Brewery.  At the Gingerman, I sampled an Austin microbrew (Hill
Country Brewing?) called Balcones Red Granite that was very good.  The
highlight of the trip was the Celis Brewery tour and tasting.  After
tasing the beers fresh, I will be forever dispointed in the quality of
the bottled versions I usually get.  The Pale Bock was AMAZING!  I also
thought that the Celis White was VERY good, and this is a beer that I am
not a fan of (or at least I thought).  We were not allowed to sample the
Grand Cru (something to do with the 9% alcohol content).  I could take or
leave the Celis Golden and Rasberry (compared to the other two).  I
thought I would pass along some of the Celis info I can remember for the
brewing community:

Ingredients:  Briess (sp?) pale malt
              roasted caramel malt
              corriander
              dried orange peel
              sazz hops (pellets)
              cascade hops (pellets)
              williamete hops (pellets)

That's it!  I do not remember seeing any wheat malt, but I thought Celis
White was a wheat beer.  I was not able to find out anything about their
yeasts except that they maintain their own yeast cultures.  I was supprised
to learn that they use hop pellets exclusively.  I was also surprised to
learn that Pale Bock is actually a pale ale.  They said they use the local
Austin water supply (which is high in limestone and resembles Belgian water)
and just filter out the chlorine.
                   
Hope you find this usefull,

David Muzidal                            David.Muzidal at dssc.slg.eds.com

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:52:44 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: All-Wheat Beer Response


In HBD 1816 Nicholas A. Franke writes:

>	In HBD #1815 (August 26), Bill Bunning questioned whether 
>wheat malt had the diastatic power to permit a wheat beer to be 
>made from a 100% wheat grist.  In my opinion, a 100% wheat grist 
>can be used.
>	In June I made a hefeweizen with the following grain 
>bill:
>		7.25# German Wheat Malt
>		2.5 # Canadian Wheat Malt
>		 .75# German Caramel Malt (10L)
>		1   # Wheat Flakes
>		4 qts. Rice Hulls
>
>	I used a single decoction mash.  The sparge yielded 
>7.25 gals. of wort at S.G. 1.042.  
>	I believe that had barley malt been added to the grain 
>bill of this beer that the extract yield would have been higher. 
>In my opinion, extract yield suffers as the percentage of wheat 
>in the grist increases.  I have no specific data to back up these 
>assumptions, but base them only on general observation.

Well the extraction from wheat should be higher than from barley. Like
39 vs 35 pt/gal/lb.  In the first sentence you indicate that
all-wheat is OK. Then you add that extraction yield suffers (I think
yours is around 70%) perhaps indicating insufficient diastatic power.

To get maximum extraction from a low diastatic power malt, I'd make
some attempt to mash for success.  That is try to use the enzymes
available carefully.  This probably means mashing on the low end of
the temperature range in order not to wipe out enzymes prematurely,
and I'd probably go for a really long mash period and adjust pH to the
optimal range.

Nicholas - could you post your mashing schedule for a point of
comparison ?

>	I am now a firm believer in using 100% wheat in the 
>hefeweizen grist, though.  Out of several weizens I have made 
>with the same yeast and general procedure, this one is by far the 
>best and most closely resembles a German hefeweizen.
>
>				NAF.
>				nafrank at ibm.net

As always - success is measured from the bottle or keg, and NOT by
extraction efficiency. 

Stevea

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 16:25:04 -0400
From: joep at informix.com (HomeBrewer)
Subject: Thermometer/burner

>>>>> Regarding Thermometer/burner; Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> adds:

 Robert> Of course if anyone Knows of a $10 burner I'll be the first in
 Robert> line.  The commercial ones are just more than my wallet can
 Robert> take at this point (especially considering the SO points).

Gee, and I thought I was the only one trying to justify my hobby to my
SO.  :)  I did buy the bigger burner and it has been a great help.  The
kitchen still has to be cleaned, but the brewing odor is now outside, so
the SO is happier about that. <g>


joe.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Joe Pearl, Sr. Sales Engineer, Informix Software, Inc.                      |
| 8675 Hidden River Parkway, Tampa, FL, 33637 813-615-0616                    |
| PGP'd email preferred                                                       |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| If you take something apart and put it back together again enough times,    |
| you will eventually have two of them. COROLLARY TO MURPHY'S LAW             |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by BSUVC.bsu.edu
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: Burners and Conversion/Keeping cool

No, I'm not wanting to bring up the religion thread again.  ;-)

Thanks for all the help and advice for obtaining propane and natural gas
burners, and for modfying burners to work with each type.  Robert Brown
<rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> had some great ASCII art to go with his, and was
explicit enough to get thru my sometimes thick skull the specifics of the
burner modification.  (Modify the end of the gas line, not necessarily the
burner tip where the flame comes out.  And of course, where possible, seek
professional help.)

I think David Draper is on to something.  If you really want a helluva
response to your HBD question, try to get it in a really small digest...

- ----------------
"Alex R.N. Wetmore" <alexw+ at andrew.cmu.edu> asks:
>it has no air conditioning or a cellar that we can use).  Is there a
>good way to keep the temperature of the fermenting beer closer to
>the lower 70's that the yeast will enjoy?

It's definitely not an ideal situation, but I had very good success this
summer brewing two batches of Weizen (not nearly enough!) by wrapping my
plastic primary in foam insulation and putting it in the fridge for a few
hours each day.  The foam slowed the temp changes, and this kept the temp
of the ferment in the _range_ of 60-72 F.  I have a "fermometer" type
(different brand actually) thermometer that sticks on the outside of the
primary.  This was essential, otherwise I would not have any idea of the
temp.  So, the temp was not _constant_, but the beer turned out great just
by keeping it in range.  Here in Indiana, the humidity is so high that I've
not been inclined to try evaporative cooling, where you put the fermenter
about half deep in water and drape a t-shirt or somthing over it to wick
water up and off of the fermenter for about a 10 degree reduction in
temperature.  A water bath would work great if you have a large tub or
plastic trash can.  If the volume of water is great, it will take a long
time to heat up so you could change some water each day or add some ice to
keep it pretty cool.  Again, it is much better practice to keep the temp
constant, (the yeast doesn't like temp change) but if you keep it in range,
and don't change the temperature very quickly, I think you will be OK.



- --Brian K. Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu> Muncie, IN



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1817, 08/29/95