FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Commercial RIMS components (Barry Browne)
  JOCKEY BOX SUMMARY (rbarnes)
  Remove from mailing list (MZEIS)
  Dave Miller's book (Rich Lenihan)
  New Brewing Gadget (Elde)
  Great Amerian Beer Festival Winners (Shawn Steele)
  Flat Beer! (DANVATH)
  Re: Composting grains (Ed Westemeier)
  Repitching/water treatment/DMS and W#2206 (Algis R Korzonas)
  Varrious Recipies (Eric McCormick)
  lemon balm, hop-growing and beer styles (Rob Lauriston)
  Mash agigation (Philip Gravel)
  Erlanger (John C. Harkey)
  Cider Beer (THE FIRM)
  Patrick Higgins - Celis White (Eric Rouse)
  Re: N2O "Carbonation" (Paul D. Wiatroski)
  High-Gravity Lager Yeast (Bunning W Maj ACC/DOTE)
  Ft. Myers Brewpubs (MANCUSJM)
  Thanks to everyone (Kinney Baughman)
  Why does beer "promote long life"? (Jay Weissler)
  RE: Composting Grains/Recirc-n-stir are us/and a gripe... ("Pat Babcock")
  1728 Resurection (Rich Larsen)
  55 gal. equipment (Ron Raike)
  Re: decoction mashing/60C rests (Russ Brodeur)
  Et Cetera (Russell Mast)
  [Paul Wyluda:  Wine Barrel Question] (CCAC) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  Broadway Brewing Co. ("D. J. Glantz")
  Beta-amylase at 140F (60C) (Algis R Korzonas)
  I Have 3 Questions. (%5chaton)
  LONGER LIFE AND BEER CONSUMPTION ("BATLAN  -D1FKV0W")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:06:34 -0700
From: bbrowne at golder.com (Barry Browne)
Subject: Commercial RIMS components 

     Hi all,
     This message was sent before with no confirmation; here goes again.
     
     I've been interested in owning/building a RIMS ever since the '92 
     Special Issue of Zymurgy with Rodney's schematics.  I'm no 
     electrician/electronics type so I never got up the nerve to try 
     soldering that puppy together.  Anyway, I'm wondering if a company 
     called Brewcraft, Ltd. out of Carrollton, TX is the answer for me and 
     all other electronics-challenged RIMS-envious people.  This company, 
     blah blah, sells ready to go controllers/heaters/temperature probes 
     based on Rodney's concept.  You use your existing mash setup, buy the 
     magnetic drive pump elsewhere (Grainger) and some plumbing hardware.  
     Hook their stuff to all this and presto, a RIMS.  The cost of 
     Brewcraft's gear would be about $250 (for the heater, all controllers, 
     and temperature probe).  
     I am seriously considering buying Brewcraft's system but would like to 
     know first if anyone out there has already done so, has comments about 
     it, or knows of other similar commercially available equipment?  Any 
     and all responses are appreciated.  There are a ton of you RIMS owners 
     out there, and I want to become one too.  FWIW, I already have the pump 
     and recirculate my mashes.  It's great.  All I lack is what Brewcraft 
     offers!
     
     Brewing on in Atlanta, GA
     Barry
     bbrowne at golder.com
     

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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 12:54:02 pst
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: JOCKEY BOX SUMMARY

     Lots of questions today. I'm making the switch to kegging and
     all-grain at the same time.
     
     Regarding my post a couple of weeks ago about freezing copper 
     coils in ice in a jockey box, I received private replies 
     suggesting that the expansion of the ice would in fact crack 
     either the cooler or the copper tubing. Also, the extremely cold 
     coils might cause beer to freeze in the line during the initial 
     dispensing.
     
     I think I might try to use the coils in the cooler (permanently 
     installed), and insert bags of "blue ice" to maintain cold without the 
     danger of breaking the cooler or the coils. 
     The frozen coil problem might be more difficult. I might try to use 
     3/8" copper for the coils and use 3/8 pipe to 3/16" hose barb adapters
     to the beer lines. That would make it less likely for the frozen 
     beer in the coil to stop the flow of beer (I would think). If anyone 
     has any other ideas/comments/etc, please let me know.
     
     **********
     In the latest Zymurgy special issue the author of one of the
     articles commented that there was still some debate in homebrewing
     circles over whether aluminum pots were acceptable for use in brewing.
     My understanding was that the aluminum would undesirably affect the 
     beer. Anyone out there using aluminum? It's sure cheaper than 
     stainless.
     
     **********
     On the subject of pots, can I drill a hole in the side of an enameled 
     steel pot to insert a drain fitting? Since this will almost certainly 
     damage the coating, is there a way to repair the damage to avoid wort 
     contact with steel?
     
     **********
     Also, does anyone have comments on doing an overnight mash in a 
     round Gott cooler? This would begin at ~9pm, 158 deg., sparge and boil 
     the next morning. Does this have any drawbacks?
     
     Private e-mail is fine, I'll summarize.
     
     TIA- Randy Barnes, San Diego.

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:43:53 -0400
From: MZEIS at aol.com
Subject: Remove from mailing list

Kindly remove me from the mailing list. I just can't keep up with the volume
of mail. Thanks!

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:05:29 -0400
From: rich at lenihan.iii.net (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: Dave Miller's book

Dave Miller has recently produced an update to his "The Complete Handbook of
Homebrewing". The new book is called "Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide". The
short review is that the new book is pretty damn good, although some might
find it less technically "dense" than TCHoHB. It's still the best single
reference source for homebrewers of all levels, IMO. The new text covers
some topics that weren't covered in the first book, such as kegging and
filtering, as well as most of the topics covered in the the first book. In
fact, some sections of TCHoHB are repeated word for word in "Dave Miller's
Homebrewing Guide". 

Is this book a must buy? Well, if you already own TCHoHB or both of
Papazian's books ("The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing" and "Homebrewer's
Companion"), maybe not. Otherwise the answer is an emphatic yes.

   Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide -- Everything you need to know to make 
      great-tasting beer
   Dave Miller
   Storey Communications, 1995
   ISBN: 0882669052
   $14.95

 -Rich

see "http://www.iii.net/users/rich/libeery/" for a longer review of this book.


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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:14:59 -0400
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: New Brewing Gadget

Found a new brewing gadget last weekend;  a tape recorder!

It sits on a small shelf in the brewery (kitchen) next to a clock.  When
someone has a comment or note to take, they push record say the time, then
whatever they wish to record.

When done brewing, I play it back and transcribe the notes into my computer.

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:41:23 -0600
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: Great Amerian Beer Festival Winners

The winners of the Great American Beer Festival Professional Panel
Blind Tasting have been posted at info at aob.org.  To get a copy of the
winners, send e-mail to info at aob.org and include the keyword "WINNERS"
somewhere in the text.

 - shawn

Shawn Steele
Information Systems Administrator
Association of Brewers            (303) 447-0816 x 118   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                  (303) 447-2825         (fax)
PO Box 1679                       shawn at aob.org          (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679           info at aob.org           (aob info)
U.S.A.                            http://www.aob.org/aob (web)

Note:  When replying to my messages, please include enough of my
message so that I know what you're replying to! :-)

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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: DANVATH at delphi.com
Subject: Flat Beer!

Fellow beer nuts,

  First time poster (yikes!):

  My latest finished batch, a doppel bock, turned out completely flat (3 out
of 3 bottles).

  I have two theories as to why this happened, as I did two things for the
first time with this batch.  Any solid theories offered as to which is the
culprit would be much appreciated.

  1.  Length of fermentation:  I fermented in the primary for almost 3
weeks; fermentation didn't become active for 5 days (completely different
screw up). I then transferred to a secondary where it stayed for another 3
weeks. Could the yeast have completely died in this long a time period?

  2.  Bottle sanitation error:  My personal suspect.  I use Grolsch bottles,
and in following with an idea in the summer issue of Zymurgy, I sanitized my
bottles by putting them in the dishwasher (no detergent) and washing and
heat-drying them.  Could/did this eff up the gaskets?  They appear fine
using the naked eye.

  The second isn't likely to happen again, since I'll be going to kegs very
soon, but I'd like to know just the same.

TIA,
Dan Vath                                                 "JUST BREW IT"
Kincheloe, MI                                     Portland (OR) Brewing motto

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:12:52 -0400
From: hopfen at iac.net (Ed Westemeier)
Subject: Re: Composting grains

Absolutely!
The spent grains get thrown on the compost pile in the back yard, along
with the spent hops and the grass clippings, shredded leaves, coffee
grounds, eggshells, and chopped-up bits of leftover veggies.
No meat, fats or animal matter of any kind!

The compost pile loves it all. Makes fantastic topsoil.

By all means, do it. Turn (aerate) the pile once a week or so with a rake,
and it won't even smell. Honest!

Ed

************************************************************
*   Ed Westemeier            **   Cincinnati, Ohio         *
*   E-mail: hopfen at iac.net   **   Phone: (513) 321-2473    *
************************************************************



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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 13:51:11 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Repitching/water treatment/DMS and W#2206

Bob writes:
>> Also, which is better for such repitching:  the sediment from the primary
>> or the secondary?
> 
>I've used both successfully.  The hbd-wisdom on this has been that the
>yeast from the secondary is cleaner (i.e., more trub-free), but if you
>use the oft-cited yeast washing techniques, the yeast from the primary
>should be just fine.  Again, I'd use a starter.  I'm just speculating,
>but it's possible that if you _are_ going to repitch into your next batch
>without making a starter that the yeast from the primary would work better.

I'll leave it to Dan to provide most of the details, but I'll just tell
you what I've done and add one note of caution.  Except for fruit beers
and lagers, I use only a primary.  I have had very good results simply
racking finished beer off of the settled yeast (and, yes, trub) in the
primary and pouring fresh, cooled wort on top.  I have not tried to do this
more than one generation and would probably limit it to two generations,
personally.  The one note of caution has to do with whether to use the
yeast in the primary or secondary if, indeed, you have the choice.  Every
yeast population will have some mutations in it and possibly more than one
strain.  If you use the yeast from the secondary, you may be selecting for
the poorly-flocculent yeasts, i.e. the percentage of slow flocculators is
more likely to be increasing.

***
Pat writes:
>1/2 lb dark crystal, 6 oz black malt. 13.33 gal of sparge/mash
>liquor was treated w/ 2T CaSO4 (poor choice, in retrospect. SHould
>have used the carbonate...) and 1-3/4 t lactic acid.

I don't know if you meant to write this or not, but what you've written
sounds like CaSO4 (calcium sulphate, aka gypsum) and CaCO3 (calcium
carbonate, aka chalk) are sort of interchangeable.  They are most definately
not.  I just didn't want someone to read this and think: "hmmm... calcium
lowers pH and my pH is too high, so I'll use CaCO3 to lower the pH..."  This
is absolutely wrong.

While it's true that calcium (by way of reactions with the malt) does indeed
lead to lower pH, but CO3 (carbonate) ions raise pH far more than Ca lowers
it.  Therefore, the net result is a rise in pH from CaCO3.  Judging from
the grain bill, unless your water is already very high in CO3, I would not
have added anything to the sparge water, even the lactic acid.  If, when
taking runnings, you measure the pH of the runnings and it's beginning to
climb above 5.6 or so, then I would add a little lactic acid to the sparge
water.

In my case, I've brewed batches with 100% pale malt and the pH of the
final runnings has been below 5.5, so I know that I need not worry about
pH.  Knowing this, I can, if I wish, add all brewing salt additions at the
beginning of the boil (to imitate the water of a particular style).  In
the case of dark beers, however, I might actually have too low a pH (thanks
to the acidity of the dark grains) and I do check the pH of the mash and
add CaSO4 to raise it if necessary (depending on the amount of dark malts).

***
Also Pat writes:
>But the 
>question remains: Does Wyeast 2206 require particularly low 
>fermentation temperatures to do a clean job [referring to DMS
>in the finished beer]???

Actually, I believe that a higher fermentation temperature would
decrease DMS in the beer.  Although I have not read it anywhere,
I have long theorized that part of the reason that ales have less
DMS than lagers is related to the fact that CO2 scrubs out the DMS
that is created during the boil and chilling.  Therefore, it would
make sense to me that a more vigorous evolution of CO2 would scrub
more DMS from the beer.  Comments?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:20:08 -0600
From: emccormick at iepsnet.com (Eric McCormick)
Subject: Varrious Recipies

I have a long list of recipies captured from the FidoNet Zymurgy echo.  
These are available through my FidoNet node (as in I'm sysop) as BEERS.ARJ, 
MEADS.ARJ and WINES.ARJ or as raw text with .LOG in stead of .ARJ.  NOTE:  
My Fido address is 1:207/213.  For direct access the # is (909) 792-4308.  
If you use a terminal program that can do F'Reqs you can pull the file down 
directly.  If you were thinking of an E-Mail req., forget it.

If there is enough interest I will look into creating a series of messages 
which could be easily posted.  Due to the volume I would have to ask the 
management here for permission.  If someone here has access to entering 
things on an FTP site, please e-mail me at emccormick at iepsnet.com.  I would 
love to make these directly available for download via FTP.

Included recipies are: Klingon Imperial Ale, a barly wine for the stout 
hearted person.  Several Pumpkin beers and other holiday treats.  And lots 
of others.  



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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 21:32 PDT
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: lemon balm, hop-growing and beer styles

Cher collective citizens of BeerBorg,

As harvest is upon us, I contemplate what I should reap and what I should
compost.

Has anyone ever brewed with lemon balm?   I think that I would probably try
dry-balming.  'Lemon balm' seems to be something from a mint type of plant.
When you rub the leaves, you get a lemon-furniture-polish sort of smell,
less pungent than citronella.  The Saxer Lemon Lager, or whatever it was
from around Portland OR always struck me as gimicky and wimpy, but that's
from the point of view of someone who has made the IBU pilgrimage Portland,
to the hop heaven, lupulin loveland, humulone homecoming...   I can still
see trying a lemon balm ale.  Such potential for puns:  even the explosives
squad couldn't stop the Lemon Balm from detonating.  Lemons everywhere.
Join the meringues.

As for other crops:  My hops from an unknown cultivar are still green and do
not show any sign of browning or over-ripening that I can tell.  Meanwhile,
my bines from Mt. Hood and Willamette rhizomes have let the cones go brown,
the leaves go yellow, and are generally preparing for Hallowe'en.  I'm at
50'N latitude, so the photo-periodic response of the hop is at an extreme
here.  Is that why this is the northern extreme for hop cultivation?   On
the subject of hops, I was told that the hops in the lowermainland of B.C.
are being grown on low trellises.  I noticed that some hops I had on a three
foot fence accepted horizontal training, but in their exertion upwards, they
produced more cone-bearing side-shoots.  Is this recognized as a way to
increase hop yield, or at least simplify wirework?

Some wild hops I picked seemed quite mild.  Some I allowed to brown past
oxidation and they produced an odour that made me think of cat pee.  That
reminded me of the comment of an English brewmaster dismissing a beer "made
with those catty North American hops".  At first I thought it was Imperial
snobbery, but now I wonder more and more.  The role of wild N.A. cultivars
in creating our modern hops.  All of this is spurred by reading Don Van
Valkenburg.  :)

Wanna crank up the style thread again?  Beer is especially ephemeral.   How
can there be any significant historical depth to the concept of beer styles
when 1) the hops they had aren't available anymore and visa versa, when 2)
malting barleys and malting methods have changed so much that malt flavours
are likely significantly different, when 3) modern yeast strains are not
only pure, but tend towards those which do not produce distinctive
fermentation character, and 4) water and sanitation are likely to be
controlled much more in a modern brewery?  I've heard the anecdotes of the
eighty-year-old who is offered a taste of a modern brew and proclaims it to
be *exactly* like the porter, pils or pale ale they remember from their
youth.  I find these stories very unconvincing.  

Please do not be provoked by any of my comments unless you enjoy provocative.  

 - Rob Lauriston <robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca>


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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 23:35 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Mash agigation

===> Kirk R Fleming discuss extraction effiency and mash agigation

>With the exception of the lowest extraction number I've ever gotten
>(using a batch sparge to save time), my records indicate that the only
>difference between the very low yields and the high yields is the 
>stirring of the mash (or the gross disturbing of the grain bed surface).
>Again, I'm finding about 20% difference.

This observation doesn't surprise me.  When I was doing lab work, we
always agigated chemical reactions either through boiling or reflux or
stirring with a magnetic stirrer or overhead stirrer.  The agigation
ensures more uniform distribution of reactants (starch) and catalyst
(enzymes).

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.net

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:04:20 -0500
From: farmer at exodus.databank.com (John C. Harkey)
Subject: Erlanger

I enjoyed a commercially bottled brew from Schlitz beer labeled Erlanger
(sp?) 15 yrs ago when I lived in MN.  They discontinued it I believe10 or
more years ago. My question is--anyone know this brew or do you know a
recipe that would enable me to homebrew it? I recall it had a very slight
sweet aftertaste. Someone told me it was probably named after a pub in
Milwaukee?


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:38:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: THE FIRM <PELLETT at accuwx.com>
Subject: Cider Beer

My friend abd I wiuld like to brew a cider beer. However we have not seen 
any recipes for cider beer. We were wondering if anybody has a recipe that
they wouldn't mind sharing with us? If no one has a recipe, can any tell us 
if there is any thing special we need to do when fermenting beer with cider 
or apples in it. If we add the cider or apples to a hot wort will they 
spoil if we ferment at room temperatures. Any feedback and knowledge
on this subject would greatly be appreciated. 
Thank You, 
Brian McDonnell and Tim Pellet
State College, Pa...

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:09 CST
From: ASFA.DAUPO04A at daubgw1.itg.ti.com (Eric Rouse)
Subject: Patrick Higgins - Celis White

>> Does anyone have a good recipe for Geary's and or Celis?  Extract, partial 
or all-grain?

Here's one for a Celis Clone:

   Category         :  Belgian White            
   Method           :  Partial Mash
   Starting Gravity :  1.049
   Ending Gravity   :  1.012
   Alcohol content  :  4.7%
   Recipe Makes     :  5.0 gallons
   Total Grain      :  7.00 lbs.
   Color (srm)      :  6.8
   Efficiency       : 75%
   Hop IBUs         : 13.2

Malts/Sugars:
  0.50	lb.	Flaked Oats              
  0.50	lb.	Barley Flaked            
  1.00	lb.	Briess Weizen            
  4.00	lb.	Briess Pale              
  1.00	lb.	2-Row Lager Malt         

Hops:
 1.50	oz.	German Hallerta	 2.4%	60 min
 1.50	oz.	Czech Saaz     	 3.5%	10 min

Yeast: Belgian White #3944
Coriander Seed: 1 Tsp
Orange Peels: 1/2 Ounce

This one has nice color and taste however you may want to increase the volumes 
for the Coriander and Orange peel, I thought it was mild compaired to an actual 
Celis White.

- ---
Eric Rouse - ASFA at msg.ti.com
Personal Productivity Products - Sales Force Automation Software Development
"I am Pentium of Borg, Resistance is Futile, You will be Approximated"


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:25:59 -0400
From: gi572 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul D. Wiatroski)
Subject: Re: N2O "Carbonation"

Regarding N2O "Carbonation"
 .
>As a dentist, I have access to nitrous oxide. And being a brewer with
>an experimental bent, I would like to try force carbonating with
>laughing gas. Is this possible? Would decreased solubility require
>higher pressure? Would the beer lose its carbonation quickly?
 .
Kit,
I'm not a chemist; however, being a "motorhead" I can tell you we use
N2O in our engines to increase horsepower. The N2O is injected into
the fuel intake manifold to provide an amount of pure oxygen for improved
combustion. I've never tried N2O in beer, I would be afraid of oxidation
problems. If any of you chemists out there know that this wouldn't be
a problem, let us know.
 .
Paul Wiatroski
 .
If wishes were beer, beggars would drink.
 .

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 09:52:00 +6
From: Bunning W Maj ACC/DOTE <bunningw at ns.langley.af.mil>
Subject: High-Gravity Lager Yeast


Winter is just around the corner and I'm preparing to brew a high-gravity 
dopplebock/eisbock.  Does anyone have a suggestion on which lager yeast will 
do the best job of fermenting a high-gravity wort?  I'm expecting an OG of 
approximately 1.090.  I'm even willing to special order from Brewer's 
Resource for a slanted yeast strain.  Any suggestions?

Bill Bunning
Member of the Mile-High Brewer's Guild

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: MANCUSJM%wpo1p%wpo2v at snycenva.bitnet
Subject: Ft. Myers Brewpubs

A friend is heading to Ft. Myers, Fla. on business on October 20.   Could
anyone recommend any local brewpubs.

Please send the information to me at mancusjm at ca.sunycentral.edu

Thanks.
Jim Mancuso

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:39:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Thanks to everyone

Wow!!

Talk about dreams coming true...

My feet have yet to touch the ground.  Like Norm said, little ol'
Cottonwood (formerly Tumbleweed) came home with a medal from the GABF!! 
For the smallest brewery in the competition to come home with a medal from
as big a deal as the GABF is a fact I *still* find hard to believe.  But I
assure you I'm having a helluva good time coming to grips with it! 

I could go on and on, believe me, but the most important thing I want to 
say to this forum is 

                                 THANKS

I have loved and depended on the HBD from the first digest I received over
5 years ago.  As we all know, the HBD is the single most important
repository and brainfund of brewing information in the world.  If you need
to know an answer to your brewing question, it can be found in the HBD
archives.  We should all be proud of the quality of information that
passes here.  I know I'm personally honored to be a part of such a great
bunch of folks. 

Ever since the Tumbleweed/Cottonwood gig literally fell into my lap, I
haven't had the chance or time to share and post as much as I once did but
I read it every day and depend on the brother/sisterhood to inform me of
its findings, experiments, and research as I try to hold the brewery
together.  I've used what I've learned here to conquer the inevitable
headaches and problems that come from running a commercial operation even
if I don't always get back to tell you how much you've helped.  If it
weren't for what I've learned from this forum, I dare say the Cottonwood
experiment would be a dim and unpleasant memory in my mind.  Instead, I'm
proud to say it's brought me one of the greatest joys of my life. 

I hereby dedicate the ribbon that held the medal around my long, skinny
neck all day Saturday to the HBD and invite you all to come see and touch
it at the brewery!  It's as much yours as mine.  I know in my heart we
never could have done it without you.  I still don't think of Cottonwood
as a commercial brewery and I don't think of myself as a commercial
brewer.  I'm a homebrewer brewing in a big homebrewery.  Always have been. 
Always will be. 

Thanks again.

Cheers, beers, and I *still* can't believe it's all happening!!!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kinney Baughman                      |      Beer is my business and
  baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |      I'm late for work.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 10:09:59 -0500
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: Why does beer "promote long life"?

Here's my theory: Drunk drivers are running over healthy 60+ year  
olds who are out jogging. Moderate drinkers are only at risk while  
walking home from the pub.

 -or-

teatottlers are so sick their doctors have made them stop drinking.  
Of course, their mortality is highest. Next up are those only sick  
enough to have to cut back to moderate drinking.

Sorry, I couldn't let this one go by.

jayw

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:42:11 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: RE: Composting Grains/Recirc-n-stir are us/and a gripe...

>Into the composting fray....

I don't compost my grains. I spread them on the top of my wife's 
flower beds. A lot cheaper than pine bark mulch, and just as 
attractive. 

Every once in a while, Kim has to field queries as to where she 
'buys' the 'sawdust' she uses in her garden!

Downside? If you don't sparge well, the bees and flies can be a 
nuisance for the first couple of days...

>Into the stirred mash fray...

Kirk: I, too recirc during my mash. Religiously. I once wondered  if
it could replace the stirring I was doing along with the recirc, so,
on a batch of my 'Up The Creek With A Paddle' Oatmeal Stout, I did
just that. Nothing.

My extraction for that batch was _dismal_ (the beer was GREAT -
possibly one of my best stouts, the extraction was dismal) at around 
18 pt*gal/lb. My normal rate is on the order of 31. Just another data 
point.

>And a gripe, related to the above...

*** GRIPE MODE ON

How does an extremely technical group, as most of us homebrewers
tend to be, botch a units designation so badly? I'm talking about
Points-gallons-per-pound. How do we justify showing this as p/g/p?
That implies points DIVIDED by gallons divided by pounds as opposed
to the actual points TIMES gallons divided by pounds! Imagine the
confusion being induced in the minds of newcomers to the concept of
extraction rates/efficiencies? C'mon, folks! How about p-g/p? Or,
better, pt-gal/lb? Or, if you must have the slashes p/(p/g)...

But seriously, folks!

*** GRIPE MODE OFF

Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:20:11 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: 1728 Resurection

A while ago I posted about the lack of carbonation in an Imperial stout that 
was fermented with Wyeast 1728 Scotch Ale yeast.

Well a miracle happend!  After 3 months in the bottle, suddenly it 
carbonated.  A week before the beer was flat as a board.

So I guess all that was required was patience.

 
=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 970-9778
"24 Hours in a day... 24 Beers in a case... Coincidence?"
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:09:58 -0400
From: Ron Raike <ron at mail.creol.ucf.edu>
Subject:  55 gal. equipment

Anybody use or consider using Stainless 55 gal drums for mash/lauter,
boiler, or fermenters.  Any thoughts???   Private emails preferred.  Will
post results of anything good.   Thanks
ron at mail.creol.ucf.edu     -     Orlando FL   -  see ya at Dixie Cup


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 13:44:05 -0400
From: r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com (Russ Brodeur)
Subject: Re: decoction mashing/60C rests

Sorry for the bandwidth on this one, but I really want to stimulate
discussion of this topic.

In HBD#1853 Steve Alexander writes:
>In 'Malting and Brewing Science' Volume 1 by Briggs, Hough, Stevens &
>Young pp 281, table 9.7 states that the MAXIMAL activity range of
>beta-amylase is 60-65C (140-149F).  The same table shows the highest
>yield of permanently soluable nitrogen (a proxy for proteins & amino
>acids in solution) to be 50-55C (122-131F), tho another table entry
>shows the non-amino acid nitrogen to peak yield at 55-60C.  They also
>note on pp 291 that "Beta-Amylase is destroyed in mashes in 40-60
>minutes at 65C(149F)". 

This is _excellent_ information.  Just what those of us too cheap to buy the
references need!

>For very thick mashes of 67%(24 oz/lb) the 60C mash produced poor
>extraction efficiency.  Mash times are not given. 

Any data about efficiencies at other temps for 67% mash thickness?  Does a
"thicker" mash allow beta amylase to survive to higher temperatures?  When
using "infusion" techniques for the 40-60-70 mash I generally have a "thick"
mash at "60"C in order to minimize the quantity of "infusion" water required
to raise the temp to 70C and keep the mash from becoming _too_ thin at the
70C rest.  I shoot for ~1.5 qt/# at 70C.

>Regarding starch gelatinization, "Malting and Brewing Science", pp
>292-293 states, "In mashing it is the liquefying action of
>alpha-amylase that is chiefly responsible for the dissolution of the
>starch granules, which only begin to gelatinize at about 65C(149F),
>but which slowly swell at lower temperatures [55-60C,(130-140F)] and
>become progressively more susceptible to enzyme degradation".  

Perhaps the optimal temp range for beta amylase activity _is_ 60C, but
unless the starch is gelatinized,beta-degradation will be slow.

>Dave Miller in "HBofHB" chapter in mashing states the optimal
>beta-amylase temp as 140F(60C), but notes that a gelatinization temp
>of 149F(65C) prevents complete conversion at this temperature.

ditto

>George Fix in 'Principles of Brewing Science', pp 95 states, "One rest
>is typically in the range of 55 to 60C, which is optimal for amylase
>activity. During this rest, 70 to 80% of the starch is converted.  A
>second rest in the range of 65 to 70C is use to finish off the starch
>conversion at a faster rate".

With these minor discrepancies (evolution in thought) in the open
literature, the question arises:  What sort of profile do traditional
European breweries use?

>My personal experiences with 60C rests agree with George Fix's quote
>above.  Even after 15 minutes at 60C there is a very substantial
>saccharification evident.  I guess I don't see any agreement that 60C
>is at the low end of the active range for Beta-amylase, it appears to
>be in the maximal activity range according to several reputable
>sources.

I think the underlying problem is _not_ that 60C isn't optimal for beta
amylase activity, but that beta-degradation is a slow process at 60C since
the starch has not yet been gelatinized (in an "infusion" mash).  This is
one advantage of decoction mashing over "infusion," IMHO.  If decoctions are
used to raise the temp to 60C there will be a considerable amount of
gelatinized starch and dextrins present.  I know from experience that after
30 min at 60C the mash liquor is "sweet" in an infusion mash, but it is
still quite hazy, whereas at 63-65C it is quite clear after the same amount
of time, and produces a lower FG beer(30 min at 60,63-5C; 30 min at 70C).  Perhaps
there is some alpha amylase activity in the 63-65C range as well.

TTFN  --<- at 

Russ Brodeur  (r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com)
Franklin, MA


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:55:51 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Et Cetera


Lots of talk about repitching yeast.  Yesterday, I brewed a 5 gallon
batch of "leftover ale".  While it was boiling, I racked a batch of 
something else into a secondary.  It was in the primary for about 9 days 
or so.  The original culture was a Wyeast Scottish ale yast, not sure what 
number.  Rather than bottle the yeast or wash the primary, I just poured 
stright from my cooling apparatus onto the yeast.  I was extra careful to 
aerate mightily.  This thing took off like a rocket.  High kreuzen within
6 hours.  (Maybe less, I had to go out for awhile, came back and whoosh, 
it was blowing off like a maniac.)  

I've heard people swear up and down that pumpkin has almost no flavor and
all the flavor in a pumpkin pie is from the spices.  Hogwash, I say, but the
spices are probably a large part of it.

Someone in private e-mail a couple of Novembers ago said that you should
toast or bake the pumpkin first.  I assume canned pumpkin has been through
this already.  This same fella said he mashes it, doesn't have much problem 
with sparging, and only uses the outer hull part, not the slimy meat inside.
May try it this year myself.

I'm pretty sure that treacle is made very differently than molasses, like from
a different plant and all.  That being said, it supposedly tastes very similar.
Who knows?  I've had good results with 1/2 cup to 1 cup blackstrap molasses
in 5 gallon batches.  (1 cup is on the strong side...)  I've also had good,
but decidedly different results, with 1-2 lbs. of Sucanat, a natural unrefined
cane sugar product thing stuff.  (Look in health food stores.)

Kids and beer - it wouldn't surprise me if local jerks reading HBD (like 
over-zealous county sheriffs or church-lady busybodies) report someone for
feeding beer to their kids.  Legal or not, most child-abuse laws are worded
very openly and these are odd times we live in.  I'd be careful what you post.

As Ken Willing pointed out, the study he cited was not perfect and should be
taken with a grain of malt.  Still - I'm not taking any chances.  I'll have
a couple beers today, just in case.  :-)

 -R

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Date:     Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:38:04 EDT
From: William Boyle (CCAC) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  [Paul Wyluda:  Wine Barrel Question]


- ----- Forwarded message # 1:

Date:     Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:59:40 EDT
From:     Paul Wyluda (CCAC)  <pwyluda at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To:       wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:  Wine Barrel Question
Message-ID:  <9510101459.aa21318 at CCAC1.PICA.ARMY.MIL>

Bill,

I appreciate it if you could run this message through the Wine and
Beer Digest.


Question:
Does anyone know, or have any experience with long term storage 
(approx. 2 years) of wine in polyethylene drums?

I have been told that oxygen will permeate through polyethylene.
I would like to age/store some wine I had made in a commercially 
available food grade polyethylene drum and I'm concerned with spoiling.
The reason I want to use polyethylene instead of the traditional wooden
barrel is based on price. 
Is this acceptable?

Please email responses to: pwyluda at PICA.ARMY.MIL


- ----- End of forwarded messages

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:11:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "D. J. Glantz" <djgst7+ at pitt.edu>
Subject: Broadway Brewing Co.


	Can anybody tell me more about Broadway Brewing Co. in Aspen, CO?

	I'm a member of TRASH here in the Burgh (Three Rivers Alliance of 
Serious Homebrewers (typed out for the novices since TRASH has been 
around and prominently so for 10 years (no thanks to me)), 
and I got to try Flying Dog Doggie Style in Pittsburgh at the Snyders 
U.S. Beer Festival in June.  A great Brew!  I have since then acquainted 
several of my friends with the very clean beer, who are similarly impressed.

	Now yesterday I read about "Road Dog" and a Hunter Thompson connection 
as viewed and tasted at the Great American Beer Festival.

	What can you tell me about this Broadway Brewing Co.? 

	THANKS!

	Private E-Mail ok to djgst7+ at pitt.edu (Doug Glantz)

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:30:36 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Beta-amylase at 140F (60C)

Steve, for some reason, blasts me for saying:
>No.  The rest at 60C (140F) is at the very low end of the active range
>of beta amylase and is at the high end of protease range.  Since the
>rate of enzymatic action is temperature-dependent, the rest at 60C
>does very little saccharification (unless we are talking hours) and thus 
>is primarily for the action of protease.  Protease breaks big proteins
>into medium-sized proteins.  So the 60C rest is a protein rest and
>is not really much of a factor in the fermentability of the beer.

quoting George Fix, Malting & Brewing Science and Dave Miller in the
process.  In case you didn't notice, there are quite a few contridictions
in your quotes.

Frankly, I don't know why you have to jump on my words like this.  I was
already going to address this issue after Jim Busch's much more polite post.

What I should have said is that 60C (140F) is at the lower end of the
*practical* range for beta amylase.

If you'll recall the posts regarding that extra package of enzymes in some
Pilsner kits or those on the subject of adding amylase for stuck ferments,
back then it was posted by several brewers that while these enzymes are most
active in the mid-to-high 140's (F), they do break dextrins down to
fermentables even at room temperature... it just takes days.

My *point* was that at 140F/60C, while I did say that there is some
saccharification (I guess that I shouldn't have said "*very little*"), it is
a very active temperature for protease.  If not for the action of protease,
then why mash at 140F/60C?  Why not mash at 149F/65C?  At this temperature,
beta amylase activity is higher AND gelatinization is occurring too.

The difficulty in talking about enzymes and optimal temperatures is that
for every enzyme there are two factors: 1) the activity of the enzyme and
2) the denaturing of the enzyme.

Let's take protease for example.  Most books say that it's range is
122F/50C to 140F/60C.  It's activity at 122F is quite a bit lower
than it's activity at 140F.  All throughout this range, protease is
also denaturing.  The higher the temperature, the faster the enzyme
denatures (becomes useless).  So, while there might be even faster
activity at 145F/63F, it will denature faster than it is practical
for use at this temperature.

In my own typical mash schedule, I use a 15 minute rest at 140F/60C
followed by a boost to 158F/70C for an hour (via an infusion of
boiling water, incidentally).  I get a rather dextrinous wort from
this schedule and it also helps me handle proteins quite well.  It
has nowhere near the fermentability of a two hour mash at 149F/65C.

I admit that my initial post was poorly worded and that my *point*
(see above) seems to have been missed, at least by some readers.
Nonetheless, this is no reason for dragging out the textbooks and
copying out paragraphs, as if we wouldn't believe you if you simply
wrote that they said otherwise.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 20:43:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: kett at server.uwindsor.ca (%5chaton)
Subject: I Have 3 Questions.


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Date: 10 Oct 1995 22:01:22 GMT
From: "BATLAN -D1FKV0W" <D1FKV0W at BATLAN.BELL-ATL.COM>
Subject: LONGER LIFE AND BEER CONSUMPTION


This is my first posting, as I am a new homebrewer.  I did my first solo
batch on Labor Day (I had helped a friend extract brew previously), and
have an orange blossom mead happily fermenting since the equinox.

WRT Herb B. Tuten's <HERB at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us> post on bottling
techniques, I was very happy with the bottling bucket that came with my
starter kit.  It served as a sanitizer for my hoses, caps, etc., then I
used the spigot to fill the bottles with the slightly used bleach solution.
When I was ready to bottle my beer, I inverted each bottle over my jet
bottle washer, shook it out and filled from the bottling bucket.  I didn't
bother drying because I figured the little bit of residual water wouldn't
dilute the beer enough to notice.  I thought this worked well, even though
I was bottling alone.  With a helper, it would have gone even better.

Now, a question.  I have heard a lot about contact times and strengths for
sanitization, but wonder whence this information ultimately comes?  I have
seen recommendations to use 1oz bleach/gallon of water for an hour.  My
sister, whose degree is in Food Industry and who works with sanitization of
commercial food processing containers and equipment on a daily basis, says
that at 200ppm (~=1 oz of household bleach per 2 gallons water) the contact
time for "commercial sterility" (that is apparently the FI term) is a mere
90 seconds!  What gives?  Any authoritative references to suggest?

======
WRT Ken Willing's <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au> post:

>If you had "up to 2" standard drinks a day ("one standard drink" = approx.
>10 ounces of beer, or the alcohol equivalent in wine or spirits), you were
>10% more likely to be alive at the end of the period than if you had none.
>
>If you had "2 to 3" standard drinks a day, you were 30% more likely to be
>alive at the end of the period than if you had none.
>
>If you had "3 or more" standard drinks a day, you were 60% more likely to
>be alive at the end of the period than if you had none.


By historical standards, 1 1/2 oz of alcohol/day (I assume that even Aussie
beer tops out around 5%) is not a lot.  Pulling an envelope out of the
recycling and doing a quick calculation, I compute that as (at uttermost)
 .083% blood alcohol for a 150-lb adult.  Still legal to drive in PA.

Of course, in America, when we don't do something, we *really* don't do it,
so three drinks a day is considered by many people as heavy drinking.

Likely explanations (none original to me):

1) Moderate consumption of alcohol assists in achieving a healthy
   relaxation.  Of course, *forcing* an LDS to consume alcoholic
   beverages would be anything but relaxing for either party!
2) Alcohol consumption is correlated with other healthy behaviors, such
   as socializing, owning pets, etc., especially among older people.
3) People with diseases that are likely to kill them in five years or so
   are often prohibited from drink by their doctors; for instance, many
   medications have adverse reactions when combined with alcohol.  This may
   or may not have been corrected for, and the correction may or may not be
   the proper one.
4) People who lie about their alcohol consumption are more likely to die
   early.  ;-)  (OK, this one *is* original to me).

Robert A. West


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1854, 10/11/95