FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Uncl: Pots, overnight mash, flat bock, Erlanger ("Calvin Perilloux")
  bronze ball valves (DICKERSON)
  Broadway (uswlsrap)
  Useful Broarder Styles (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)
  Useful Broarder Styles (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)
  Egg on my face (re: Flat Beer!) (DANVATH)
  N2O/Longevity (A. J. deLange)
  DRAT!!! (Algis R Korzonas)
  Oregon Brewers Festival (Wyss1364)
  composting spent grain (Rob Lauriston)
  RE Irish Moss (Tim Fields)
  re Imperial miracle and Red Ale update (Tim Fields)
  brewing paddle finish? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Aluminum pots (S29033)
  Re: This years pumpkin thread (DONBREW)
  "sugar free" root beer? (Larry Lowe)
  Re: Patrick Higgins - Celis White (Eric Rouse)
  BrewCraft followup (RIMS) and grain scales (Barry Browne)
  Cottonwood's location (Kinney Baughman)
  Re: re[2]: new Brewery setup (Bird)
  Erlanger (LeRoy S. Strohl)
  Re-Erlanger ("Craig Rode")
  re[2]: new Brewery setup ("Colgan, Brian P.")
  Re[4]: new Brewery setup ("Colgan, Brian P.")
  Re: electronics (hollen)
  Erlanger ("William D. Knudson")
  Aluminium and Alzhiemer's (Kevin Imel)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:35:13 EDT
From: "Calvin Perilloux" <dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Uncl: Pots, overnight mash, flat bock, Erlanger

From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
>   **********
>   On the subject of pots, can I drill a hole in the side of an enameled
>   steel pot to insert a drain fitting? Since this will almost certainly
>   damage the coating, is there a way to repair the damage to avoid wort
>   contact with steel?
I suggest not using enamel pots like that.  It's difficult, if even
feasible at all, to repair the damage you'd do to the enamel by drilling.
Two nights ago I happened by chance to be reading 'Malting and Brewing
Science', the tank construction section, and ceramics are classified as
inexpensive (which we homebrewers already know) but difficult and
expensive to repair (as we may have suspected).  No mention of patch-up
methods, but I doubt that it is worth it in time and expense.

>   **********
>   Also, does anyone have comments on doing an overnight mash in a
>   round Gott cooler? This would begin at ~9pm, 158 deg., sparge and boi
>   the next morning. Does this have any drawbacks?

The drawback you'll have is that your mash temperature over the night
will be dropping slowly, steadily, and probably a fairly long way down.
I don't have the information at hand, unfortunately, but one thing that
definitely springs to mind is lactic acid bacteria:  Is 158 degrees
enough to kill them all off?  If not, they are VERY active if the mash
cools down to 100 or 120 degrees, and that could lead to souring.
Anyone else out there have hard info on this?

From: DANVATH at delphi.com
> My latest finished batch, a doppel bock, turned out completely flat...
>  1.  Length of fermentation:  (very long)
>  2.  Bottle sanitation error:  (dushwasher-toasted gaskets)

But no mention of priming sugar!  How much did you use?  I hope it
wasn't forgotten.  Is there any yeast sediment at all in the bottles?
If so, it might just need (even more) time to carbonate.  Perhaps almost
all the yeast had settled out, and the beer racked off was nearly yeast-
free.  At what temperature is the beer being kept?

As for the gaskets being damaged by the heat, well, I guess you really
should have removed the gaskets before dishwasher sanitizing, but it's
done now.  Maybe they're OK.  Or maybe they have dried out and have tiny
cracks in them that you can't see.  Bend one double over and see what it
looks like.  (Bad news if it cracks and breaks in half!)

I suspect low yeast content or activity level.  Lucky you, you have used
Grolsch bottles, so you can unpop the tops, add fix-up stuff, and reseal
in a jiffy.  Here's my jack-rig proposal:

Formulate a new priming solution and add it to each bottle.
Main ingredient:  A few spoonfuls of active yeast from a current
batch.  If your gaskets are proven bad and the beer is definitely not
sweet, then mix the yeast  in sterile, COOLED wort or priming sugar
solution for priming.  Otherwise, if your original priming sugar is
still around in the beer, then you don't want to overcarbonate, so
mix just the yeast in sterile water.  Maybe half a cup total volume.







Add the yeast/primer slurry to each bottle, and replace the gaskets
at the same time with new, sanitized ones if needed.  Then keep the
beer at room temperature for a week or two and see what happens.
Good luck.

From: farmer at exodus.databank.com (John C. Harkey)
>I enjoyed a commercially bottled brew from Schlitz beer labeled Erlanger
>...
>Someone told me it was probably named after a pub in Milwaukee?

It was probably named after the German city Erlangen, north of Nuernberg
(Nuremberg).

Calvin Perilloux                                  "Bayerisches Bier,
dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com                               Staerker als Heimweh"
Erding, Germany


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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:01:45 -0700 (MST)
From: DICKERSON at ecc6.ateng.az.Honeywell.COM
Subject: bronze ball valves


In reading the Keg_conversion FAQ, I found only one reference
to bronze, and that was to say Bronze is a mixture of copper
and tin.  I would like to know if I am safe using a bronze
ball-valve on my converted keg/mash tun/lauter tun/boiler.

Jack Dickerson
dickerson at eccx.ateng.az.honeywell.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:19:24 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Broadway

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:11:00 -0400 (EDT)
"D. J. Glantz" <djgst7+ at pitt.edu> asks about Broadway Brewing in Colorado:

>   Now yesterday I read about "Road Dog" and a Hunter Thompson connection
>as viewed and tasted at the Great American Beer Festival.
>
>   What can you tell me about this Broadway Brewing Co.?

Actually, not very much, but I can share something I heard on "As it Happens"
last Friday.

DISCLAIMER: I _believe_ it was about Broadway Brewing, but I didn't get to
hear the entire interview or to make a written note to myself about it
(I was getting ready to go out for the evening), but D.J.G.'s reference
to Hunter Thompson means that I probably am thinking about the right brewery
because Hunter Thompson was mentioned in the interview.  In any event, it was
_some_ craft brewer in Colorado.

Apparently, they ran into a little trouble with the Colorado authorities
over the label.  No, they didn't commit the crime of providing nutritional
information, as did Mr. Grant; 'twas far worse: apparently someone was upset
about the following words on the label: "Good Beer, No Shit!"

Did anyone else hear that interview?
Maybe they could provide some additional information: aih at cbc.toronto.ca

It doesn't tell you a lot about the brewery, but it is an amusing anecdote
(or it would be if it weren't so sad to see a brewer being harassed) and it
was an opportunity for craft brewing to get on the airwaves.

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino    uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Madison

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 10:36:49 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Useful Broarder Styles

Rob Lauriston writes,
>Wanna crank up the style thread again?  Beer is especially ephemeral.   How
>can there be any significant historical depth to the concept of beer styles
>when 1) the hops they had aren't available anymore and visa versa, when 2)
>malting barleys and malting methods have changed so much that malt flavours
>are likely significantly different, when 3) modern yeast strains are not
>only pure, but tend towards those which do not produce distinctive
>fermentation character, and 4) water and sanitation are likely to be
>controlled much more in a modern brewery? 

It is interesting that the wine industry used to have styles largely named 
after regions, champagne, bordeaux, moselle etc. They abandoned this because 
1/ Modern methods improved wine so much the style was becoming unrecognisable.
2/ In the market place, winemakers were fudging and the appellations became 
essentially meaningless.
3/ The regions themselves began jumping up and down saying "this is our bit of 
geography, stop passing off!". They sent delegations as far as Australia to 
present their case which was accepted everywhere.

Because of the long maturing times of wine, 1to 30 years, (how I hate micros 
saying they can't afford to brew lager for 3 months) the flavour mellows out a 
lot, so grape variety and method (wood, steel etc) are more important than 
yeast. Now most wines are named after grape varieties which makes a lot of 
sense. Wines are judged within varieties by excellence, not style conformance!

I am well aware of Dan Van Valhenberg's arguments in "Styles and Creativity" at 
The Brewery. He was provocing a thread and probably doesn't believe any more 
than me that styles are not useful. I find them far too classified and as Rob 
points out, often contrived.
e.g.
1/ Why can't an  excellent American Bock beat a very good  Helles Bock in a 
competition? They are close enough to be compared and contest. Strong Bock or 
Light Bock, Bitter Ale or Extra Bitter Ale,  make more sense to me, but I 
agree, they sound less romantic and "authentic".

Let the brewer woo the palate within broarder categories!

2/Styles can be contrived. India Pale Ale was historically brewed as a 
travelbeer for thirsty imperialists in India..
The AHA guidlines say
   > Golden to deep amber/copper. Medium body. Medium maltiness. High hop
    >bitterness. Hop flavor and aroma medium to high. Fruity/estery. Alcoholic
    >strength evident. Low diacetyl OK. 
   > OG 1.050-70, 5-7.5%, 40-60 IBU, 8-14 SRM. 
   > Bass, Young's Special London Ale, Grant's IPA. 
Now I would like to issue a challenge here. I'll brew John Brockington's award 
winning IPA, put it in a 5 gal oak cask and get myself down to the Sydney 
Cruising Yacht Club. There I'll persuade a polite Californian yachtie (they are 
always polite) to stow it on his trip home. I ask John to retrieve the cask 
from him at the San Fransisco Yacht Club and taste it.
The barrel will be worn smooth inside, all hop aroma will be long gone, the hop 
flavour will be almost overpowered by oak, and the strong bitterness much 
mellowed. The colour will be a good deal less pale. The flavour profile will 
miss the AHA description by thousands of nautical miles and several degrees of 
longtitude,

but it will be very close to what the officers of the British Raj tasted in 
their clubs in Lahore!

As Rob points out, because of changes, historical authenticity is bunk. An IPA 
is just a heavily hopped Pale Ale with a more romantic name. If someone calls 
it an IPA, shout "where's the oak?!"
Regional styles make some sense where they still exist, but in many cases the 
regional styles are close enough to others to compete. I like the idea of 
styles from a formal competition point of view, and more importantly, from a 
marketing point of view. It will be the market, not the AHA that will begin to 
rationalize styles. If they are too contrived or academic then they will not be 
useful to microbrewers in describing their product and will be consigned to the 
proverbial dustbins of brewing history.
I know formal standard bearing associations are a bit hegemonistic, but can we 
all put some thought and pressure into evolving more useful styles guidlines 
based on flavour, method, hop and yeast?

Charlie  (Brisbane, Australia)








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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 10:45:55 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Useful Broarder Styles

Rob Lauriston writes,
>Wanna crank up the style thread again?  Beer is especially ephemeral.   How
>can there be any significant historical depth to the concept of beer styles
>when 1) the hops they had aren't available anymore and visa versa, when 2)
>malting barleys and malting methods have changed so much that malt flavours
>are likely significantly different, when 3) modern yeast strains are not
>only pure, but tend towards those which do not produce distinctive
>fermentation character, and 4) water and sanitation are likely to be
>controlled much more in a modern brewery? 

It is interesting that the wine industry used to have styles largely named 
after regions, champagne, bordeaux, moselle etc. They abandoned this because 
1/ Modern methods improved wine so much the style was becoming unrecognisable.
2/ In the market place, winemakers were fudging and the appellations became 
essentially meaningless.
3/ The regions themselves began jumping up and down saying "this is our bit of 
geography, stop passing off!". They sent delegations as far as Australia to 
present their case which was accepted everywhere.

Because of the long maturing times of wine, 1to 30 years, (how I hate micros 
saying they can't afford to brew lager for 3 months) the flavour mellows out a 
lot, so grape variety and method (wood, steel etc) are more important than 
yeast. Now most wines are named after grape varieties which makes a lot of 
sense. Wines are judged within varieties by excellence, not style conformance!

I am well aware of Dan Van Valhenberg's arguments in "Styles and Creativity" at 
The Brewery. He was provocing a thread and probably doesn't believe any more 
than me that styles are not useful. I find them far too classified and as Rob 
points out, often contrived.
e.g.
1/ Why can't an  excellent American Bock beat a very good  Helles Bock in a 
competition? They are close enough to be compared and contest. Strong Bock or 
Light Bock, Bitter Ale or Extra Bitter Ale,  make more sense to me, but I 
agree, they sound less romantic and "authentic".

Let the brewer woo the palate within broarder categories!

2/Styles can be contrived. India Pale Ale was historically brewed as a 
travelbeer for thirsty imperialists in India..
The AHA guidlines say
   > Golden to deep amber/copper. Medium body. Medium maltiness. High hop
    >bitterness. Hop flavor and aroma medium to high. Fruity/estery. Alcoholic
    >strength evident. Low diacetyl OK. 
   > OG 1.050-70, 5-7.5%, 40-60 IBU, 8-14 SRM. 
   > Bass, Young's Special London Ale, Grant's IPA. 
Now I would like to issue a challenge here. I'll brew John Brockington's award 
winning IPA, put it in a 5 gal oak cask and get myself down to the Sydney 
Cruising Yacht Club. There I'll persuade a polite Californian yachtie (they are 
always polite) to stow it on his trip home. I ask John to retrieve the cask 
from him at the San Fransisco Yacht Club and taste it.
The barrel will be worn smooth inside, all hop aroma will be long gone, the hop 
flavour will be almost overpowered by oak, and the strong bitterness much 
mellowed. The colour will be a good deal darker. The flavour profile will miss 
the AHA description by thousands of nautical miles and several degrees of 
longtitude,

but it will be very close to what the officers of the British Raj tasted in 
their clubs in Lahore!

As Rob points outabove, because of changes, historical authenticity is bunk. An 
"IPA" now is just a heavily hopped Pale Ale with a more romantic name. If 
someone calls it an IPA, shout "where's the oak?!"
Regional styles make some sense where they still exist, but in many cases the 
regional styles are close enough to others to compete. I like the idea of 
styles from a formal competition point of view, and more importantly, from a 
marketing point of view. It will be the market, not the AHA that will begin to 
rationalize styles. If they are too contrived or academic then they will not be 
useful to microbrewers in describing their product and will be consigned to the 
proverbial dustbins of brewing history.
I know formal standard bearing associations are a bit hegemonistic, but can we 
all put some thought and pressure into evolving more useful styles guidlines 
based on flavour, method, hop and yeast?

Charlie  (Brisbane, Australia)










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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:19:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: DANVATH at delphi.com
Subject: Egg on my face (re: Flat Beer!)

Hey all,

  Chalk another one up to that pesky learning process!

  In HBD 1854 I complained that my latest finished batch was completely
flat, and asked if it might be due to 1. an overlong fermentation period, or
2. bad gaskets on my Grolsch bottles due to heat-sterilizing them in my
dishwasher.

  After bottle number four had a very small amount of noticible carbonation
and bottle number five had a bit more, it dawned on me.

  I had also, for (all practical purposes) the first time, primed with DME
which, any book will tell you, will take longer to carbonate.

  I apologize deeply for exposing my naivete, and thank those who responded
to my question.  I will reply to them directly.  The friendly help I
received is truly appreciated. 

  BTW, I received my kegs on Tuesday so I won't be doing a lot of bottling
anymore, anyway.

Thanks,
Dan Vath                         Ban gelatin.  Vegetarians deserve beer, too.
Kincheloe, MI 

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:22:10 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: N2O/Longevity

There has been some discussion of the use of N2O as a gas for dispensing beer.
It is nearly as soluble in water at 1.3 volumes near freezing as opposed to
1.7 for CO2 so it ought to do nearly as well for developing fizz. It turns
out that the major use of this gas is, belive it or not, in whipped cream
products and this is because it is very soluble in fats. Thus it is has
come to be judged quite safe by the foods bureaucrats. I don't remember
whether the original idea was to improve the creaminess of the head or to
get a laughing gas kick. If the former I doubt whether the limited
quantities of lipids in beer would dissolve enough extra N2O to improve the
head but would encourage experimentation. Interesting that lipids are
usually associated with head collapse. Perhaps N2O "carbonated" beer is the
answer to the head retention problems of lipstick, greasy foods etc. If the
idea was to get a laughing gas kick I would leave it to the good dentist to
tell us how much is needed for such effects (apparently the amount is
small) but a partial pressure of nearly 760 mm is required for total
anaesthesia.

Which brings us to the concerns about oxidation problems in the beer. N2O
is certainly a good oxidizer at high temperature (e.g. the use in hot cars,
the Oklahoma City bombing, etc) and pure N2O supports combustion better
than air but at lower temperatures it is quite inert. It does not, for
example, form an acid when dissolved in water and cannot sustain life (at
least in human beings who will expire if not given O2 during N2O
anaesthesia). Thus I suppose that N2O should not lead to oxidation in beer.
Once again I am speculating and suggest that experimentation would be the
best way to answer the oxidation question.

At first I thought that nitrosamines might be a problem but I guess they
are produced from oxides where the nitrogen is in a higher oxidation state
than in N2O.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Concerning the positive correlation (up to a point) of longevity and
alcohol consumption: I certainly agree that correlation does not prove
causality but in this case there is an explanation. Alcohol consumption is
correlated with an increase in the HDL/LDL ratio and an increase in this
ratio is associated with increased life expectancy.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ron Raike asks about systems using 55 gal drums: Pico Brewing of Ypsilanti,
MI has a "Nano" system which clearly uses modified 55 gal stainless steel
drums for the brewing vessels which number 4. Their ads have been appearing
for the last couple of months.

Prosit, AJ

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 12:05:18 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: DRAT!!!

I wrote:
>   In the case of dark beers, however, I might actually
>   have too low a pH (thanks to the acidity of the dark
>   grains) and I do check the pH of the mash and add CaSO4
                                                      ^^^^^
>   to raise it if necessary (depending on the amount of
>   dark malts).

Of course I meant CaC03 (Calcium Carbonate, CARBONATE, *CARBONATE*)!
No doubt there are 10 other posts on this correction in this issue.

While I'm at it, I might as well add that I'm well aware that the
higher levels of SMM in the paler lager malts are the main (maybe
the only) source of DMS in lagers.  The lack of DMS in Munich Dunkels
is one possible argument to the contrary, but not a definitive one.
Note that to have some DMS remain in the finished beer, you have to
have a significant amount of SMM in the malt, so the Dunkel argument
is only a partial datapoint.  A side-by-side experiment would probably
be the only way to prove or disprove the theory.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:00:49 -0400
From: Wyss1364 at aol.com
Subject: Oregon Brewers Festival

Does anyone have info on when the '96 Oregon Brewers Festival in Portland is
will be held?  I've searched the WWW and their hotline with no success.

TIA,
Matt Wyss
Albany, Ca
Wyss1364 at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 00:09 PDT
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: composting spent grain

Ed Westemeier and my friend Jim Cave have already told y'all that composting
grains is a great idea.  Lately I've been doing more like Pat Babcock's
mulching:

As an alternative to a compost heap, I have taken to spreading spent grain
directly in the yard.  I have some hedge so I take the bucket of grain,
reach in and broadcast it at the hedge.  I do the some for the lawn.  That
sometimes needs to be raked in, but then it's invisible right away.
(Honest, she didn't notice!)  That way it seems to dry just about right
away, and there isn't enough in one spot to get a real rotten rot going.
Plus, the compost eventually goes on the lawn etc., so this eliminates the
handling in the compost.

You could also buy a cow.   "I have to brew, dear, the cow's hungry"

The reason I started spreading the grain around was because I did have some
odour from spent grain composting.  Ed commented,  

>By all means, do it. Turn (aerate) the pile once a week or so with a rake,
and it won't even smell. Honest!

I would stress the aeration of the composting grain -- could it be done with
hydrogen peroxide? ;-}    I have found that clumps of grain as small as a
fist can produce a terrible smell if left to... well, putrify?  They don't
smell 'til you break them open again, but then it's deathly for a day.  So
mix the grain in with other stuff if you can.  I only got clumps because I
put them out in the dead of winter and they froze, got buried, etc.  But
*don't* throw out that spent grain if you have a choice.  Moo.

Once I had some malt with rootlets in it, so I dribbled it out if one
container into another in the backyard in a wind;  the malt went into the
second container and the rootlets went onto the lawn.  Boy, was THAT a tall
green patch of lawn the next month!  Rootlets aren't exactly spent grain,
but you get the idea.

    Rob Lauriston                          <robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca>
    The Low Overhead Brewery                        Vernon, B. C.


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Date: 12 Oct 95 07:19:02 EDT
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: RE Irish Moss

In #1855,David Oliver <dwo at slip.net> writes:

>  On another note, I've been using 2 tsp of irish moss to my kettle per 5
>gallons. The other day I was leafing through Charlie Papizans "The Home
>Brewer's Companion" and he recomends 1/4tsp per five gallons. My pals at
>the brew store recomend 2 tsp per 5 gallons.  Who's right?  
When I polled the HBD collective wisdom on this subject, the reply was to 
use 1-2 tsp for 5 gal.  Personally, I split the diff and use 1.5 tsp.

>I won't even
>ask whether to rehydrate or not.
Since you didnt ask, the collective also states: REHYDRATE!  At least an 
hour before use.  Add at 15 mins before knockoff.



"Reeb!"
      - Tim
           Tim Fields...Fairfax, VA
           74247.551 at compuserve.com _or_ timfields at aol.com (weekends)
           timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)



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Date: 12 Oct 95 07:29:33 EDT
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: re Imperial miracle and Red Ale update

	rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen) wrote:

>A while ago I posted about the lack of carbonation in an Imperial stout that 
>was fermented with Wyeast 1728 Scotch Ale yeast.
>
>Well a miracle happend!  After 3 months in the bottle, suddenly it 
>carbonated.  A week before the beer was flat as a board.

Update re my friend with the stuck batch of American Red Ale that did not 
carbonate (question posted around same time as Riche's). the only 
HBD-generated suggestion he had not tried was to swirl the bottles to 
resuspend the settled yeast (there was and is VERY LITTLE yeast in his 
bottles).  Didn't work - still flat as of a few days ago. I will pass on 
Riche's Imperial miracle story and report back if the red ale ever carbonates.



"Reeb!"
      - Tim
           Tim Fields...Fairfax, VA
           74247.551 at compuserve.com _or_ timfields at aol.com (weekends)
           timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)



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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:56:13 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: brewing paddle finish?

Hello All,
I've just made a paddle for stirring my mash and brew out of
maple. Should I put a finish on it like polyurathane or clear
epoxy, or leave it unfinished?

By the way I'm getting close to brewing my first batch in my new
10 gal. all grain system, thanks to the collective for getting me
there.

Rick Pauly    Nuclear Med Tech  Charlottesville, VA

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Date: 12 Oct 1995 08:24:07 -0500 (EST)
From: S29033%MOTHER at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: Aluminum pots

I have been reading the discussions on aluminum pots and have this to offer.
I don't brew in aluminum.  It is not because I am afraid of getting a disease
but because something interesting happened while I was using an aluminum pot. 
Maybe someone out there can shed light on this.  Here goes -
I was using an aluminum pot (thin aluminum) to finish boiling a batch of maple
syrup.  I had the syrup boiling on the stove and when it was done (tested it
using a thermometer - 219 f gives the proper consistency) I notice something
dripping from the bottom of the pot.  I tasted it and it was the syrup.  Now,
the stuff had not boiled over and I checked the pot for leaks and could find
none - I still use the pot to this day for other things and it has no leaks.
My question is; Is it possible for a sugar solution to pass through the walls
of an aluminum pot?  Was I seeing things?  Did I have too many beers?  If I
sound skeptical it is because I still can't believe it.  I do not wish to
spread disinformation about this.  Please clear up this old mystery.

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft
s29033%mother at utrcgw.utc.com

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:45:00 -0400
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: Re: This years pumpkin thread

   So far nobody has mentioned not to use the Jack O'lantern type pumpkin.
 From what I understand the large variety has very little taste, and you
should use the smaller "cooking" variety from the grocery store rather than
those big "ornamental" guys.
   I have never been tempted to make a pumpkin beer, just remembering the
past threads and cooking advice from that "chef" dude on the local evening
news.  "oooh so good".

Don
 

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 8:06:54 CDT
From: Larry Lowe <lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov>
Subject: "sugar free" root beer?
Full-Name: Larry Lowe

i have a diabetic nephew who would love for me to make him
some "soda pops", but the obvious problem is the sugars 
involved. has anyone ever heard of making these sodas so 
that a diabetic could drink it? he and i would appreciate
any responses. TIA

hoppy brewing

once upon a time never happened...

- --
from: Larry N. Lowe
      NOAA, National Weather Service
      Arkansas-Red Basin River Forecast Center
      10159 East 11th St,  Suite 300
      Tulsa, Oklahoma 74128-3050
      lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov
      Off: (918)832-4109  FAX: (918)832-4101

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:11 CST
From: ASFA.DAUPO04A at daubgw1.itg.ti.com (Eric Rouse)
Subject: Re: Patrick Higgins - Celis White

>>Malts/Sugars:
>>  0.50  lb.     Flaked Oats
>>  0.50  lb.     Barley Flaked
>>  1.00  lb.     Briess Weizen
>>  4.00  lb.     Briess Pale
>>  1.00  lb.     2-Row Lager Malt
>
> Are the two "Briess" entries for malt extract or malt?  You do say "partial
> mash" above, but nothing is clearly labeled malt extract.

Both of the Briess items are extract, all of the others are grain for the mash. 
 I get my supplies from St. Pats here in Austin, you can refer to thier web 
page for details on the Briess at: http://www.internetnow.com/stpats/


- ---
Eric Rouse - asfa.daupo04a at daubgw1.itg.ti.com
Texas Instruments, Inc. - Personal Productivity Products
Sales Force Automation Software Development
"I am Pentium of Borg, Resistance is Futile, You will be Approximated"


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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:07:36 -0700
From: bbrowne at golder.com (Barry Browne)
Subject: BrewCraft followup (RIMS) and grain scales

     Hey again,
     I got quite a number of responses to my query about BrewCraft's RIMS 
     components (no affiliation blah blah).  To recap, BrewCraft 
     (Carrollton, TX) sells RIMS heaters, temperature probes, and RIMS 
     controllers ie pump speed and heater.  For people like me who already 
     do full mashes, you can RIMSify your existing equipment by buying 
     BrewCraft's setup (total about $250), a magnetic drive pump, and some 
     basic hardware (tubing, clamps, etc.).  I'm handy with wood, plumbing, 
     small engines, but NOT electronics so this system seems just right for 
     me and probably lots of other people.  Judging from the # of requests  
     for info I got, A LOT of people want this stuff.
     
     One person replied that actually owns the BrewCraft system and he 
     thinks it is great, works very well and is well made.  So there's 
     what I was looking for.  For those who asked or are interested:
                BrewCraft, Ltd.
                P.O. Box 112205
                Carrollton, TX  75011-2205   
                T: 214 446-3406
                F: 214 245-5801
                E: 76004.1610 at compuserve.com
     
     Now, onto another matter regarding all-grain brewing.  What type of 
     SCALES do people out there use to weigh out grains.  I'm looking for 
     something reasonably priced but accurate with a capacity of around 
     10 pounds (5 kg) or more.  Any recommendations?? Thanks for the 
     info.
     
     All grain in Atlanta (just do it, you'll never look back!),
     Barry
     bbrowne at golder.com

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:49:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Cottonwood's location

Brian asks where Cottonwood is.

You're not alone.  I must have answered that question a couple of hundred
times last week!!  We're located in Boone, NC which is in the extreme
northwest corner of NC in the Blue Ridge Mountains.  Boone is home of
Appalachian State University.  And the Blue Ridge Parkway is just a few
miles out of town.  It's beautiful country and with the leaves changing at
the moment, it's a visual wonderland.

Come see us.

While I'm here, I might as well tell the group about our next venture into
Belgian style ales.  First, believe it or not, you can't buy Chimay in NC.
The powers that be tell us it has too much alcohol in it!  Gee!   I haven't 
been able to ask them about that bottle of Jack Daniels I bought last week 
but, hey, isn't this why we have lawyers?

Anyway, Craig Seaver, one of the assistant brewers, had a friend from the 
Netherlands who came to visit by way of Washington, DC and brought us a 
case.  At a dinner one night, we collected the slurry from several bottles 
of Chimay, brought it into the brewery, and pitched into a starter.  It 
took off!  We built it up for a couple of months and pitched it into a 
barrel of strong ale wort just last Thursday.  So far so good.  The starter 
tasted great!  It was made of wort drawn off batches of English bitter, 
amber ale and golden ale.

Now we just have to wait and see what the general populous of Boone is 
going to say about a beer that tastes like Chimay.  Most have never tasted 
it but they've come to expect the wild and crazy from the brewhouse boys.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kinney Baughman                      |      Beer is my business and
  baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |      I'm late for work.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 08:15:27 MDT
From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
Subject: Re: re[2]: new Brewery setup

>>>>> "Colgan," == Colgan, Brian P <bcolgan at sungard.com> writes:

    >> Primary fermenter keg mods: None were necessary, aside from
    >> removing the tap assembly. A #11 stopper with air lock fits the
    >> bung nicely.

    >> Cheers,

    >> Doug

    Colgan,> bpc 12oct:

    Colgan,> Please tell me how you cleanly extracted the tap
    Colgan,> hookup from the top of your fermentation keg. I assume it
    Colgan,> wasn't a sawsall....

    Colgan,> tia

There's a flat coil spring thing that locks the tap assembly
in the keg head. I small flat-head screw driver may be used to
pry that spring out, and then the tap assy practically falls
out.

- --Doug

- -- 

"24 hours in a day...24 beers in a case...coincidence?"

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:26:06 EDT
From: LeRoy S. Strohl <lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu>
Subject: Erlanger

If memory serves me right ( it doesn't always ) - Erlanger was actually
a product of the Hudepohl Brewery in Cincinnati. I know at one time it
was on tap in their tasting room for those who would take theri brewery
tour. I am sorry to say that at the time of my last tour there I had not
yet begun homebrewing and failed to get any idea of the their
recipe information. They were very proud of the beer: it was a rich
amber color (which was a dramatic contrast to their regular beer which
was very pale and probably had corn in their mash) and they had invested
a good bit in the design of the simple understated label. The bottling
line may have needed some alterations because of the shape of the
bottles - or at least I vaguely recall some mention of this on our tour.
Erlanger, I believe, derived its name from the town in Kentucky that is
directly across the Ohio River from Cincinnati.
lstrohl at mwc.edu

- --

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Date: 12 Oct 1995 09:26:31 -0600
From: "Craig Rode" <craig.rode at sdrc.com>
Subject: Re-Erlanger

John Harkey asks about Erlanger:
I believe that Erlanger (which I recall as a decent beer) was brewed by Pabst.
 It was named after one of the early owners of the brewery.  Often, in
Milwaukee, breweries were named after one of the owners, not necessarily the
majority owners.  For example, the Uhlien family owned Schlitz.

It was an OK beer, but not great, as I recall.  But then, I've had a lot of
beer since then, my memory ain't what it used to be.

On another subject, I am very intrigued about the comments I have seen here
lately about sanitizing bottles in dishwashers.  Can I really get away from
bleach soaks and rinses?  Please email me with any anecdotal info on this.  I
am pretty lazy, and would love to eliminate this tedious process if possible.

Craig


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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 10:13:39 EST
From: "Colgan, Brian P." <bcolgan at sungard.com>
Subject: re[2]: new Brewery setup

>Primary fermenter keg mods:

>None were necessary, aside from removing the tap assembly. A #11 stopper
>with air lock fits the bung nicely.

>Cheers,

>Doug

bpc 12oct:

Robert-
Please tell me how you cleanly extracted the tap hookup from the top of your 
fermentation keg. I assume it wasn't a sawsall....

tia

Brian Colgan            "Every one has to believe in something."
bcolgan at sungard.com     "I believe I'll have another homebrew."
h:(610) 527-8896 / w: (215) 627-3800         
Radnor, PA.



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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 10:37:12 EST
From: "Colgan, Brian P." <bcolgan at sungard.com>
Subject: Re[4]: new Brewery setup

>>>>> "Colgan," == Colgan, Brian P <bcolgan at sungard.com> writes:

    >> Primary fermenter keg mods: None were necessary, aside from
    >> removing the tap assembly. A #11 stopper with air lock fits the 
    >> bung nicely.

    >> Cheers,

    >> Doug

    Colgan,> bpc 12oct:

    Colgan,> Please tell me how you cleanly extracted the tap
    Colgan,> hookup from the top of your fermentation keg. I assume it 
    Colgan,> wasn't a sawsall....

    Colgan,> tia

There's a flat coil spring thing that locks the tap assembly 
in the keg head. I small flat-head screw driver may be used to 
pry that spring out, and then the tap assy practically falls 
out.

- --Doug

- -- 

"24 hours in a day...24 beers in a case...coincidence?"

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

===================
brian again:

Doug-

But isn't that spring INSIDE the keg? How do you get access to it?

brian


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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:44:00 -0700
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: electronics

>>>>> "Harlan" == blacksab  <blacksab at siu.edu> writes:

Harlan> 1.  Has anyone used the BruProbe and BruTemp(tm) from JB
Harlan> Distributing? I'm not real good with electronics, but I'm
Harlan> fairly handy, and this seems like a good entrance into
Harlan> it. Anyone had any experience?

I built a BruTemp, but screwed up something in the construction.  It
is back with JB being diagnosed.  The BruProbe is a *beautiful*
execution.  I don't think you could get better unless you went with a
very expensive SS probe of some kind.  All in all the BruProbe/BruTemp
is great.  However, you can screw it up in the construction if you are
not careful.

Harlan> 2.  I'm still kicking this RIMS-thing around in my head, and I
Harlan> want to start with a motor speed controller. I have in front
Harlan> of me ZYMURGY's Gadgets and Equipment Issue, p.50, Rodney
Harlan> Morris's schematic. For the most part, everything makes sense
Harlan> except for 2 things:

Harlan> a.) L1--100uH choke 

Sorry, I am not an EE and did not build the motor speed controller.
Just the temp controller.  I used an industrial fan speed controller
available from GRainger for $14.

Harlan> b.) Wired across line and neutral, and also wired to D2, diac
Harlan> trigger for triac, is something labeled T2. But it also seems
Harlan> to be labeled MT1, MT2, & G. What do these last 3
Harlan> represent. They're present in the teperature controller above
Harlan> as well. What gives?

A Triac has three legs, one is MT1, one is MT2, and one is G.  G is
the gate, that which triggers high current with a small current.  MT1
and MT2 are the input and output for the high currrent, but I could
not tell you which is which from here at work.  The data sheet in the
Digikey catalog for the part will tell you, though.  But in fact, you
do not need to know.  Just connect them up to what they are supposed
to be connected up to and you do not need to understand what they are
for.  You *do* have to get which is which *EXACTLY* right or they go
up in smoke (I know from experience).

The T2 is the parts designator.  Every schematic has part numbers and
the Triac parts use the designator series "T".  The first triac is T1
and the second T2.  Also, every part has pin designators, and in this
case, they are MT1, MT2 and G.

Harlan> c.) Finally, do these schematics work as printed? I recall
Harlan> reading something in an old HBD when I was doing my RIMS
Harlan> research that someone couldn't get the temperature controller
Harlan> to work properly. Anyone with experience out there?

>From the 1992 Zymurgy issue, absolutely a working schematic.  If
someone could not get it to work properly, *they* botched it.  You may
hear that Rodney's schematics are not right, but that was a
pre-publication copy that got published in a homebrew club newsletter
and they transcribed the schematics by hand into the newsletter and
screwed up in the process.

While there are some minor improvements that can be made to Rodney's
design, it works just fine as is.

Harlan> Oh yea, another question from my long list that I keep
Harlan> forgetting to ask: Where can I get brewing/food grade caustic
Harlan> soda? 

Find an alternative.  Unless you have forced yourself into having a
Clean-in-Place brewing system, there are other safer alternatives for
any cleaning job in a home brewery.  If you can be more specific about
what you want to use caustic for, I am sure we can provide
alternatives.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: 12 Oct 95 10:52:44 EDT
From: "William D. Knudson" <71764.203 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Erlanger

In HBD #1855 Chris Geden says:

>John Harkey asks about Erlanger...I remember it as being some megabrewery's
>response to Michelob, that is, a new "premium", top of the line brew.
>But are you sure it was Schlitz - I thought it was Pabst or Coors.

I was definately not Coors, theirs was 'Herman Joseph's 1868'.  My recollection
was as follows:
Erlanger=Schlitz
Andecker=Pabst

These were all stronger flavor versions of the 'premium' brand.  Erlanger
claimed compliance to the Reinheitsgebot.

By the way, I've had a chance to try AB's Faust & 'Muenchner'.  I'll take a
Faust over a Mich or Bud any day, forget the Muenchner.

Bill

Ich kann besser Deutsch, wenn ich ewas Bier getrunken habe!


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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:24:20 -0700
From: kimel at moscow.com (Kevin Imel)
Subject: Aluminium and Alzhiemer's

Hi all!

I see that it is once again time for the revival of the apparently annual 
"Why can't I use aluminium for a brewpot" thread and the inevitable citing 
of reports of aluminium causing Alzheimer's disease.

As a neuroscientist I have been keeping an eye on the literature for this 
subject (my master's thesis was on a related topic...thank God that is 
over!) and the consensus to date seems to indicate that (lots of scientific 
stuff follows):

Aluminium "may" cause neuofibrillary tangles in *some* neurons in *some* 
brain regions.  MANY (!) other conditions also cause this, including 
Alzheimer's.  Whether neurofibrillary tangles are themselves detrimental is 
not known.  (Neurofibriallary tangles are just large tangled masses of 
protein strands...think of them as chill haze on the brain <<<GRIN>>>.)

Several studies have looked specifically for a correlation on aluminium 
consumption and brain disorders and none has been found to date.  The 
toxicity of aluminium itself (the aluminium was usually given in solution or 
as a "salt") often destroyed the test subjects (ie, rats and mice) before 
neurological disorders manifested themselves.  In fact, as we (scientist 
types) really don't have a "good" animal model for Alzheimer's the aluminium 
idea has been throughly exploited trying to make one.

So, what does all this mean for we the brewing public?  Well, not much 
really because this debate will rage on and on and on ad infinitum 
regardless of scientific and medical evidence.  If you can afford to brew 
only if you use an aluminium brewpot then aren't you better off brewing and 
enjoying life than if you didn't brew?  Besides, the recent thread on 
alcohol consumption and longevity would seem to indicate that the benifits 
of drinking homebrew would outweigh the supposed detriments of using 
aluminium brewpots.  Just thought I would toss in my 2 cents worth.

Oh yeah...on the alcohol and longevity thing...everyone seems to have missed 
the rest of the study that showed a sharp drop in life expectancy after 
about 4 "standard drinks" per day.

___________________________________________________________________
Kevin Imel                         The only way to truely fail is
kimel at moscow.com                   to fail to try.
kimel at vetmed.wsu.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1856, 10/13/95